Bored with Champions Organizations

[Agent X]

Is anybody else pretty much bored with the Established Organizations in Champions?

Primus, Demon, Viper, Genocide, and Raven just don't do it for me. The approach to organizations has suffered from serious flaws as far as I'm concerned. Primus is just been so exploited there's nothing to it anymore. I think one weakness of Primus is that it is using Supersoldiers who all look roughly the same. Primus lacks variety and variety is what Superheroes are all about. All the villain organizations (except maybe Raven and that's just because I've ignored them so long I don't remember much) suffer from extremely wierd compositions of leadership. I don't know. I am interested in Superheroes and Supervillains - not Viper Agent Bob, Chuck, Daryl, and Winnifred. The supervillains in these organizations have a few gems but most just lack any appeal. Often, the best supervillains in these organizations don't even feel like they fit in with the organization.

[ShinDangaioh]

Well........, yes.

Primus, Demon and the like are a bit lackluster and seem to be one trick ponies. I'm not sure about UNTIL(coughcough UNIT coughcough), though ;)

The last time I read a comic using agents was that mindswapping one-shot issue of JLA with Kobra.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by ShinDangaioh
Well........, yes.

Primus, Demon and the like are a bit lackluster and seem to be one trick ponies. I'm not sure about UNTIL(coughcough UNIT coughcough), though ;)

The last time I read a comic using agents was that mindswapping one-shot issue of JLA with Kobra.

I used to enjoy the occasional story with Hydra or AIM or the Hive. The thing I remember about those stories is they always included a guest star superhero in the comic or a supervillain that was being used or using the villainous organization.

[Lord Liaden]

Some of these agencies do suffer from the "venerability factor" of having been used and reused over the years, although each rewrite of them has added something special to the basic framework: Scott Bennie's VIPER sourcebook brought enough depth and variety to that group for years of roleplaying use (as well as a bunch of neat supervillains), and Shelley Crystal Mactyre really fleshed out PRIMUS in her e-book. Still, I admit that those were essentially elaborations of the same basic theme.

If you haven't used it in the past, I'd suggest trying to find a copy of Steve Perrin's VOICE of Doom adventure for 3E Champions. VOICE has a flavour quite different from many of the other published Champions groups: strongly international, especially the fascinating cadre of supervillains; a structure more reminiscent of an Oriental secret society than a high-tech super agency; a more vicious and lethal M.O. than most villain groups; and a different motivation than many other such groups - not to conquer the world, but to keep it destabilized so that VOICE's corner of it remains secure.

Since VOICE was used as part of an adventure module, it's more sketchily described than some of the others mentioned above, but that can work to your benefit in leaving lots of room for individualization.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Some of these agencies do suffer from the "venerability factor" of having been used and reused over the years, although each rewrite of them has added something special to the basic framework: Scott Bennie's VIPER sourcebook brought enough depth and variety to that group for years of roleplaying use (as well as a bunch of neat supervillains), and Shelley Crystal Mactyre really fleshed out PRIMUS in her e-book. Still, I admit that those were essentially elaborations of the same basic theme.

If you haven't used it in the past, I'd suggest trying to find a copy of Steve Perrin's VOICE of Doom adventure for 3E Champions. VOICE has a flavour quite different from many of the other published Champions groups: strongly international, especially the fascinating cadre of supervillains; a structure more reminiscent of an Oriental secret society than a high-tech super agency; a more vicious and lethal M.O. than most villain groups; and a different motivation than many other such groups - not to conquer the world, but to keep it destabilized so that VOICE's corner of it remains secure.

Since VOICE was used as part of an adventure module, it's more sketchily described than some of the others mentioned above, but that can work to your benefit in leaving lots of room for individualization.

I LOVE VOICE. I just haven't used them yet. I had a great idea for VOICE once. I was going to have a Chinese Superteam, the Heroes, and VOICE fight over the Panchen Lama. It was inspired by the Chinese kidnapping of the Panchen Lama and the installation of their own choice of Panchen Lama. I was stunned that the Chinese would so baldly hurt a little boy for their political purposes. Sadly, I had to move away for awhile.

[Syberdwarf2]

I agree with Agent X. The organizations are overused. Personally, I'd like to see a fleshing out of the Card Shark crime organization from 4th ed Dark Champions. On the other hand, it is nice to run a game with a premade org, it eliminates SOME of the paperwork.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2
I agree with Agent X. The organizations are overused. Personally, I'd like to see a fleshing out of the Card Shark crime organization from 4th ed Dark Champions. On the other hand, it is nice to run a game with a premade org, it eliminates SOME of the paperwork.

Superskrull has worked on a Card Organization that I think is far superior to the Card Shark organization. Maybe he'll you about it if you ask him nicely? :)

[Monolith]

The organizations do not really bother me. In 15 sessions we have interacted with VIPER and UNTIL twice and IHA and PRIMUS once. I have used quite a few MARS agents, which is good because it gets the police involved in the game.

The problem is, no matter who you end up using in PRIMUS or UNTIL's place, it will always end up being played like PRIMUS and UNTIL. The same thing goes for VIPER and IHA. Those organizations are embedded in out minds and even if you use COBRA and SHIELD in out games it will still come off as our tried-and-trues. :)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith
The organizations do not really bother me. In 15 sessions we have interacted with VIPER and UNTIL twice and IHA and PRIMUS once. I have used quite a few MARS agents, which is good because it gets the police involved in the game.

The problem is, no matter who you end up using in PRIMUS or UNTIL's place, it will always end up being played like PRIMUS and UNTIL. The same thing goes for VIPER and IHA. Those organizations are embedded in out minds and even if you use COBRA and SHIELD in out games it will still come off as our tried-and-trues. :)

My solution for Primus would be the use of Supers instead of Super-Soldiers. That seems to be something many try to explain away as an option the government wouldn't go with because of the independence of the supers but I just don't see that rationale being the only one the government might adopt.

The way to make the villain organizations is to always tie the adventure to a unique villain, most likely a supervillain. I never want to just fight a Viper or Cobra or Whatever Team. I want something new, a twist of some sort.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X
My solution for Primus would be the use of Supers instead of Super-Soldiers. That seems to be something many try to explain away as an option the government wouldn't go with because of the independence of the supers but I just don't see that rationale being the only one the government might adopt.
I never actually envisioned PRIMUS as being super-soldiers. I envisioned them as ex-Navy Seals/Commandoes led be an occasional super-soldier. Silver Avengers almost never show up in my games though, and the 5th Edition PRIMUS agents are all basically tough normals.

The way to make the villain organizations is to always tie the adventure to a unique villain, most likely a supervillain. I never want to just fight a Viper or Cobra or Whatever Team. I want something new, a twist of some sort.
I can understand that. I always just preferred to use VIPER thugs over everyday common thugs. At least with VIPER you always had the potential of tieing a random robbery into a larger event in the future. That was a little more difficult to do when the robbers being stopped were just Moe, Larry, Curly, Shemp, and Curly Joe. :)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith
I never actually envisioned PRIMUS as being super-soldiers. I envisioned them as ex-Navy Seals/Commandoes led be an occasional super-soldier. Silver Avengers almost never show up in my games though, and the 5th Edition PRIMUS agents are all basically tough normals.


I can understand that. I always just preferred to use VIPER thugs over everyday common thugs. At least with VIPER you always had the potential of tieing a random robbery into a larger event in the future. That was a little more difficult to do when the robbers being stopped were just Moe, Larry, Curly, Shemp, and Curly Joe. :)

Didn't someone come up with some supers inspired by the Stooges? I know there was a write-up of Stooge Fu but this was especially inspiring to all Stooge fans.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Agent X
Is anybody else pretty much bored with the Established Organizations in Champions?

Primus, Demon, Viper, Genocide, and Raven just don't do it for me. The approach to organizations has suffered from serious flaws as far as I'm concerned. Primus is just been so exploited there's nothing to it anymore. I think one weakness of Primus is that it is using Supersoldiers who all look roughly the same. Primus lacks variety and variety is what Superheroes are all about. All the villain organizations (except maybe Raven and that's just because I've ignored them so long I don't remember much) suffer from extremely wierd compositions of leadership. I don't know. I am interested in Superheroes and Supervillains - not Viper Agent Bob, Chuck, Daryl, and Winnifred. The supervillains in these organizations have a few gems but most just lack any appeal. Often, the best supervillains in these organizations don't even feel like they fit in with the organization.

I've always kind of done my own (cribbing ideas from many sources)
AEGIS (Very much like SHIELD)
UNICORN (A cross between UNTIL and UNCLE)
D'Ordo Draconis (Cross between the Illuminati and Demon)
The Serpent Society (Cross between COIL and Viper)
PSI is the only one I like as is.

[Patriot]

In my neck of the woods, A a few Pcs have become Silver avengers, and One in particular has a rivalry with disad The Golden avenger,he follows orders well, but thinks he can do better.

placing supers in these orginizations does help
I have a Viper force 3 set up

a 5 man super strike team for UNTIL

The Card Sharks even have a second strind bassed of the Tarot.....


But thats just me.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
I've always kind of done my own (cribbing ideas from many sources)
AEGIS (Very much like SHIELD)
UNICORN (A cross between UNTIL and UNCLE)
D'Ordo Draconis (Cross between the Illuminati and Demon)
The Serpent Society (Cross between COIL and Viper)
PSI is the only one I like as is.

I made Viper work for me in the old days by subsuming it into COIL. I got rid of the Arthurian angle in COIL (What the?) and ran a plotline where Dr. Draconis was hired to refine the COIL gene. He, of course, started creating dinosaur men. The players did not appreciate facing creatures that had oodles of knockback resistance, damage reduction, and affect a hex melee attacks. I can't understand why? They only had 3s or 4s for Speed. :D

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Patriot
In my neck of the woods, A a few Pcs have become Silver avengers, and One in particular has a rivalry with disad The Golden avenger,he follows orders well, but thinks he can do better.

placing supers in these orginizations does help
I have a Viper force 3 set up

a 5 man super strike team for UNTIL

The Card Sharks even have a second strind bassed of the Tarot.....


But thats just me.

We have a guy who has a Silver Avenger. I don't like to bring up my problem with Primus around him. What you do is definitely a workable compromise for my concerns.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Agent X
I LOVE VOICE. I just haven't used them yet. I had a great idea for VOICE once. I was going to have a Chinese Superteam, the Heroes, and VOICE fight over the Panchen Lama. It was inspired by the Chinese kidnapping of the Panchen Lama and the installation of their own choice of Panchen Lama. I was stunned that the Chinese would so baldly hurt a little boy for their political purposes. Sadly, I had to move away for awhile.

Very cool idea! Just the sort of high-profile, politically upsetting stunt VOICE would be involved in, particularly with Lung Hung's abiding interest in China.

I've used an elaborated version of VOICE for years, and expect to bring them into my new campaign; this idea is definitely going on my list. Moochers Grass Seeds! :D

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Very cool idea! Just the sort of high-profile, politically upsetting stunt VOICE would be involved in, particularly with Lung Hung's abiding interest in China.

I've used an elaborated version of VOICE for years, and expect to bring them into my new campaign; this idea is definitely going on my list. Moochers Grass Seeds! :D

Just be sure to credit me if you use it. ;)
I'm serious. :mad:
Just kidding. :D
No I'm not. :mad:

[Superskrull]

Originally posted by Agent X
Superskrull has worked on a Card Organization that I think is far superior to the Card Shark organization. Maybe he'll you about it if you ask him nicely? :)

Huh? I have my Deck agents, my Royals and my 2 wildcards. I really never got any farther than a paragraph or two on anything but the agents themselves. I had some ideas about using card values as tiers for the Royalty but so far it isn't any cooler than using the Royal Flush Gang with a discard pile of agents. :)
Of course, there's the hidden card options and keeping the Aces up your sleeves. Oh, and declaring a card type wild to keep players from being able to know their opponent's hand. ;)
Then there's those awesome battle tactics and plans like 52 Card Pick-up and 5 or 7 Card Stud, not to mention Shuffling the Deck or Picking a Card.

OK, fine, maybe I just don't wanna show my hand yet with several players in my game reading this stuff. :D

Then there are a few plans I had for reworking DEMON into more of a Tarot-based group. Seems like I'd find more use for that one though by working it over and feeding it to Agent X as partial background for my PC in his PBEM/summer extravaganza.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Superskrull
Huh? I have my Deck agents, my Royals and my 2 wildcards. I really never got any farther than a paragraph or two on anything but the agents themselves. I had some ideas about using card values as tiers for the Royalty but so far it isn't any cooler than using the Royal Flush Gang with a discard pile of agents. :)
Of course, there's the hidden card options and keeping the Aces up your sleeves. Oh, and declaring a card type wild to keep players from being able to know their opponent's hand. ;)
Then there's those awesome battle tactics and plans like 52 Card Pick-up and 5 or 7 Card Stud, not to mention Shuffling the Deck or Picking a Card.

OK, fine, maybe I just don't wanna show my hand yet with several players in my game reading this stuff. :D

Then there are a few plans I had for reworking DEMON into more of a Tarot-based group. Seems like I'd find more use for that one though by working it over and feeding it to Agent X as partial background for my PC in his PBEM/summer extravaganza. TAROT villains - KEWL! Give me some ammunition. :D

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Agent X
Superskrull has worked on a Card Organization that I think is far superior to the Card Shark organization. Maybe he'll you about it if you ask him nicely? :)
Uh, Mister Superskrull?.......
Uh....
PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ?????:D

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2
Uh, Mister Superskrull?.......
Uh....
PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ?????:D

Oops, never mind. (just caught up with the rest of the posts.
Sorry.

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by Agent X
Didn't someone come up with some supers inspired by the Stooges? I know there was a write-up of Stooge Fu but this was especially inspiring to all Stooge fans.

Aaron Allston, in Adventurer's Club #17 .

Scott Bennie,

[Agent X]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
Aaron Allston, in Adventurer's Club #17 .

Scott Bennie, Thanks, I love your work, incidentally.

[Hermit]

Well, there's ARGENT :)

See, some new stuff. Kinda. Just ripe for your development.

[lemming]

Instead of Primus, I have an alternative SWORD (stolen from Sam Bell) which is a rather sever organization. Their logo is similar to the Mirror Universe Federation Symbol. (A sword through the Earth).

Special Weapons Ordance Research and Development.

A little silly, since it had all these ex-Nazi scientists involved. "Bring out the women & children dummies for weapon testing!"

I'm doing a bit different theme on it right now, but I'll wait until my players find out before posting what's going on. (Let's just say I've read too much Illuminati and Lovecraft. Probably played too much Paranoia as well):rolleyes:

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Agent X
I made Viper work for me in the old days by subsuming it into COIL. I got rid of the Arthurian angle in COIL (What the?) and ran a plotline where Dr. Draconis was hired to refine the COIL gene. He, of course, started creating dinosaur men. The players did not appreciate facing creatures that had oodles of knockback resistance, damage reduction, and affect a hex melee attacks. I can't understand why? They only had 3s or 4s for Speed. :D

That's very clever. I have a genetic-engineering villian name Simon Pinehurst that sort of fills my Dr, Draconis/Telios role and that would be a very interesting 'Merger' of resources. Thanks.... that's another fine idea for my arsenal.

[MisterVimes]

The Pinehurst Group (see my prior post) have sort of a nice corner of the bad guy market cornered. Simon Pinehurst was a primary developer on project sunburst. He runs a system called project: pantheon that has the stated purpose of creating Metahumans (or in my campaign, actibvating the Metahuman gene that all humans possess). He's a 'power-broker' type of villain. Rumor has it that only 10% of his subjects are still remotely human when he finishes with them. The remaining 90% are mindless monsters.

This gives me a steady source of super-thugs, easily explained monsterous creatures and villain capable of stripping the Heroes of their Metahumanity... a sizable threat.

[Koshka]

Originally posted by Agent X
My solution for Primus would be the use of Supers instead of Super-Soldiers.

Shelley's PRIMUS e-book brought in the PRIME team, a group of supers. They were pretty tightly tied into a plot line, but not so tight they couldn't be "cut free" and used simply as supers who chose to join PRIMUS. I've never used them (too many game ideas, not enough game time), but if I did I'd dump the "secret history" and run them as supers with a government paycheck.

[Shiva13]

The worst of the Champions organizations in my view (and gladly Steve did away with them) was the version of Genocide that appeared in The Mutant File.

I'm very glad that steaming load is a distant memory.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Shiva13
The worst of the Champions organizations in my view (and gladly Steve did away with them) was the version of Genocide that appeared in The Mutant File.

I'm very glad that steaming load is a distant memory.

I've always found Genocide to be a bit derivitive... it always seemed like a Marvel re-tread... but the one in the Mutant file was indeed my least favorite

[Storn]

I use organizations alot. I'm using Raven, UNTIL and my own creation, Black Clouds (a korean based, originally, mercenary organization which combined traditional ninja training and techniques with cutting edge technology) right now.

However, I understand that "blandness" charge that has been leveled.

One thing I'm doing is creating a very viable, understandable and known to the PC Raven leader named Reinlock aka Scallion. And his lethal lover, Marie, cybernetic bodyguard. This gives some personallity to Raven. We know that Reinlock used to be a street punk hacker, knocking over ATMs in Vienna. Now he is running a sizeable portion of Raven... how did he get there so quickly (like 5-7years in time from his Vienna teenage record)?

The other bit, is that Raven is re-building. And is desperate. This gives a whole different tone to the organization. They are making outrageous moves, getting exposed, in order to grab power in a European theater which is in a power vaccuum due ot the campaign. They are making mistakes and exposing themselves. But they are also audacious, understandable and colorful. They are not the ever present Hydra... they do not keep growing back like nothing happen the last time the Heroes knocked the stuffin' outta them.

What I would like to see for a Viper or UNTIL sourcebook is a global sense of spheres of influence. If anyone ever watched the first ep of Alias, there is this scene where the CIA reveal what they know of evil SD-6. And there is this huge map of hundreds of cells and their purpose. That was cool. I would like to see Viper have cells/spheres of influence with a cell leader name (maybe one sentence of flavor) that would be plug and play. Need a cell doing extortion in the red light district?, how about Yancy Kuroz, ex-Spetznatz, one arm is cybernetic. 8 agents under him Boom, that's it.

On top of which, spell out most of who is at the top. And why they are making the decisions. Cobra from G.I. Joe, you know of Destro, Cobra Commander, those two twins, Zartan, Baroness... you had an idea of who was calling the shots. In Viper source book, you have a couple of Nest Leaders, and no real sense of how the interact with each other. We are told that there is lot of infighting...but it is kept vague. Getting that web of death and deceit down is a lot of work. But having it down, then gives a real sense of what needs to be unraveled... and that is the job for the PCs.

And what is the extent of the sphere of influence? maybe a rating system like Light, medium, invasive and total. Invasive means many cops and judges are in the cells pocket. Total means it is a mini-country, held by military force. I don't know, just riffing off the top of my head.

But i think the secret to making an organization interesting is to have good lieutenants. Generally, these might be a slightly lower level than the Heroes, with an occasional one being even better than the Heroes. But lts. come with a lot of back-up.

However, I felt (sorry Bennie) that the 4th ed's paranormal lt.s were way too typical of a supervillain group. I was just looking at Viper yesterday. Serpent Syndicate and Snake Pack come across just like standard champions supervillain groups.... brick,mentalist, martial artist, maybe a t-porter.... They don't feel like the comic book organizations. The solos feel just like Classic Enemies characters, not VIPER villains.

I think Viper, Raven, Kobra, Cobra...what have you, their paranormal strike forces should really reflect the environment they come from...and having everyone being scaly is the easy way out <g>. Btw, Viper is a great book.... I'm making suggestions to make it even better.

[Shiva13]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
I've always found Genocide to be a bit derivitive... it always seemed like a Marvel re-tread... but the one in the Mutant file was indeed my least favorite

I worked up my own version. Even have a new name for it. It evolved into true distinctiveness over the years. I combined it with another organization that gave it some more solidity and made it a true worldwide threat. And I feel really good about it.

The original Genocide I always felt was a template to build from. Something with unrealized potential. Potential I consider sorely wasted by The Mutant File and the Rob Liefeld of Hero Authors.

But Steve Long's IHA I think is a great development on the groundwork laid in the original appearances of Genocide in Enemies and AC #2. A very well considered and defined realization of that potential.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Shiva13
But Steve Long's IHA I think is a great development on the groundwork laid in the original appearances of Genocide in Enemies and AC #2. A very well considered and defined realization of that potential.

I agree. Though I find Anti-Mutant storylines a bit tired, I think this one has a uniqueness and can also be adapted easily into a format where super-humans in general are the atrget (especially in campaigns where superhumanity is not a 'Mutation'.)

[Shiva13]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
I agree. Though I find Anti-Mutant storylines a bit tired, I think this one has a uniqueness and can also be adapted easily into a format where super-humans in general are the atrget (especially in campaigns where superhumanity is not a 'Mutation'.)

Yes, I definately agree. And after reading years of X-Men, I'm admittedly abit burned on that take too.

The group I mentioned of my own creation in a previous message is not anti-mutant. It's militantly human supremesist. That meaning, that anything that does not fit their definition of human is a target. This means, supers, aliens, anything... Which makes them a threat to pretty much everyone. Couple this with a militant expansionist view and megalomania... Well you get the picture.

I always found it kind of absurd for mutants in Marvel's books to be targeted as they were, when other types of supers were not.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Shiva13
Yes, I definately agree. And after reading years of X-Men, I'm admittedly abit burned on that take too.

The group I mentioned of my own creation in a previous message is not anti-mutant. It's militantly human supremesist. That meaning, that anything that does not fit their definition of human is a target. This means, supers, aliens, anything... Which makes them a threat to pretty much everyone. Couple this with a militant expansionist view and megalomania... Well you get the picture.

I always found it kind of absurd for mutants in Marvel's books to be targeted as they were, when other types of supers were not.

Exactly. In my campaign, Humanity was genetically altered about 50,000 years ago and all Humans possess the potential to be Metahuman, recent events have increased that potential. So there really are no mutants (except perhaps a mutant that COULDN'T become metahuman), so people are still processing this information... I am sure at some point some racist group will form, trying to draw a line between the active metahumans and the inactives.

[Shiva13]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Exactly. In my campaign, Humanity was genetically altered about 50,000 years ago and all Humans possess the potential to be Metahuman, recent events have increased that potential. So there really are no mutants (except perhaps a mutant that COULDN'T become metahuman), so people are still processing this information... I am sure at some point some racist group will form, trying to draw a line between the active metahumans and the inactives.

In my own campaign setting, terrestrial superheroes are an interation of a planetary defense mechanism that are comparable to antibodies. They are an extension of the biosphere. Staying largely dormant until needed. Which explains the cyclic appearances of them throughout history. The public of coarse doesn't know this. Which leads to all sorts of problems.

Superpowered villains tend to be as a result of the equivilent of cellular or genetic malfunction. Or are the equivilent of an invading virus.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Shiva13
In my own campaign setting, terrestrial superheroes are an interation of a planetary defense mechanism that are comparable to antibodies. They are an extension of the biosphere. Staying largely dormant until needed. Which explains their cyclic appearances of them throughout history. The public of coarse doesn't know this. Which leads to all sorts of problems.

Superpowered villains tend to be as a result of the equivilent of cellular or genetic malfunction. Or are the equivilent of an invading virus.

That is such a completely cool idea.
Are the players/characters aware of this?

[Lord Liaden]

I was quite smitten with the conceptual and structural changes to Raven made by Steve Long in Justice, Not Law. The concept of an organization dedicated to rule of the world by those "born and trained to rule", i.e. aristocrats, had potential, and the classical/medieval names and ranks gave the group a definite mystique. Of course, as a Dark Champions supplement it really wasn't geared to four-color campaigns, which are my preference.

My solution was to bring in the Families from Aaron Allston's Strike Force supplement. These were several related European bloodlines who all have longer than normal lifespans, and who often manifest mutant powers; the heroine Lorelei of Strike Force, and the mastermind villain Alasder Dell, were both members of the Families. I decided that the various family patriarchs were the founders and leaders of Raven, and their ranks of those "born to rule" could include anyone with innately superhuman abilities. To give them more muscle, I made Raven's elite enforcement corps, the Praetorians, into the group's supervillain branch, made up both of "younger son" scions of the Families, and villains with other origins.

I'm very tempted to bring back Raven into my new campaign, with some additions from the revised Champions Universe. For one, I think that Holocaust would make a very appropriate leader for the Praetorians. I would also like to see the organization galvanized by a new Grand Imperator, a long-lost relation of the Families now returned to the fold: Menton.:eek:

[Shiva13]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
That is such a completely cool idea.
Are the players/characters aware of this?

Yes. Many of the players learned this in past campaigns. And part of the fun has been when characters in those past games actually found out the truth.

Though currently I do not have a group I am running for. Need a new one.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Shiva13
Yes. Many of the players learned this in past campaigns. And part of the fun has been when characters in those past games actually found out the truth.

Though currently I do not have a group I am running for. Need a new one.

I love it when the players 'Get it' and they get that look of recognition... *heh*

[Shiva13]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
I love it when the players 'Get it' and they get that look of recognition... *heh*

Yes, I find it extremely satisfying too. Especially when they realize that it was staring them in the face from the outset.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Shiva13
Yes, I find it extremely satisfying too. Especially when their realize that it was staring them in the face from the outset.

:D :D That's the best!:D :D

[Lord Liaden]

Edited to keep from spilling Vimes's beans.:o

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
While we're on the subject of organizations, I seem to recall that you were working on a world-threatening group for your campaign built around a modernized incarnation of the infamous Torquemada. How's that been progressing?

*sssshhhhhhhhhhhhh*

That's a SEEEEEEEEEEEEECRET

(very well thanks)

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
*sssshhhhhhhhhhhhh*

That's a SEEEEEEEEEEEEECRET

(very well thanks)

Oops... Sorry! :o

(Wretched little players have started checking the boards, have they?) ;)

P.S. I edited my question out of my earlier post - you should feel free to do the same with my quotation.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Oops... Sorry! :o

(Wretched little players have started checking the boards, have they?) ;)

P.S. I edited my question out of my earlier post - you should feel free to do the same with my quotation.

Yeah... my Daughter is Stargirl and my star player is Eternityshard

[Chaosliege]

We use Primus all the time in our games. We have a playercharacter named Anthem from another game that had ascended(sp) to Golden Avenger status(although he still goes by Anthem). In our current game, we were aproached(sp) by Primus and are now affiliated with them.

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by Storn
What I would like to see for a Viper or UNTIL sourcebook is a global sense of spheres of influence. If anyone ever watched the first ep of Alias, there is this scene where the CIA reveal what they know of evil SD-6. And there is this huge map of hundreds of cells and their purpose. That was cool. I would like to see Viper have cells/spheres of influence with a cell leader name (maybe one sentence of flavor) that would be plug and play. Need a cell doing extortion in the red light district?, how about Yancy Kuroz, ex-Spetznatz, one arm is cybernetic. 8 agents under him Boom, that's it.

On top of which, spell out most of who is at the top. And why they are making the decisions. Cobra from G.I. Joe, you know of Destro, Cobra Commander, those two twins, Zartan, Baroness... you had an idea of who was calling the shots. In Viper source book, you have a couple of Nest Leaders, and no real sense of how the interact with each other. We are told that there is lot of infighting...but it is kept vague. Getting that web of death and deceit down is a lot of work. But having it down, then gives a real sense of what needs to be unraveled... and that is the job for the PCs.

And what is the extent of the sphere of influence? maybe a rating system like Light, medium, invasive and total. Invasive means many cops and judges are in the cells pocket. Total means it is a mini-country, held by military force. I don't know, just riffing off the top of my head.

But i think the secret to making an organization interesting is to have good lieutenants. Generally, these might be a slightly lower level than the Heroes, with an occasional one being even better than the Heroes. But lts. come with a lot of back-up.

However, I felt (sorry Bennie) that the 4th ed's paranormal lt.s were way too typical of a supervillain group. I was just looking at Viper yesterday. Serpent Syndicate and Snake Pack come across just like standard champions supervillain groups.... brick,mentalist, martial artist, maybe a t-porter.... They don't feel like the comic book organizations. The solos feel just like Classic Enemies characters, not VIPER villains.

I think Viper, Raven, Kobra, Cobra...what have you, their paranormal strike forces should really reflect the environment they come from...and having everyone being scaly is the easy way out <g>. Btw, Viper is a great book.... I'm making suggestions to make it even better.

I agree with most of this. We probably can't quite be as specific as in VIPER 2.0 as we would be in a comic or a cartoon and there is a tradition of "VIPER as villain factory" that we can't ignore, but I want to try to cultivate more of an agency feel for the new book than we had in the original.

Scott Bennie

[steriaca]

Alright guys. I understand the complants of vageness of all thoes acronims. My solution is to make up your own leaders.

For example, I just created a writup for one small leader of a Ravin cell named Black Caporcorn. He was a count of the Ducery of Kalaisto (a small europiean country), who was topled from power by a mysterous thieth who gave some of his secret files to UNTIL. To excape, he set off some bombs at his castle, and basicly blew himself up good. Enter Ravin, and there scientist, to rebuild him into a cyborg.

Yes, I stold him from the anime film Castle of Colistro (if your going to 'borrow' something, borrow from the best).

Remember, with Ravin, your dealing with a bunch of aristcrates and aristcratic wantabes. And, of course, people who acualy want to serve aristocrates, and beleve thay can do whatever thay please.

Steriaca.

[Storn]

Castle of Cagliostro was the catalyst that decided a career of art for me. I have never looked back.

[lemming]

Genocide survives in one form in my campaigns. It all goes back when I first started GMing Champions and half the PCs had Genocide as a hunted. And whenever a Minuteman would take a bunch of damage, it would lose a part. For some unknown reason, I always rolled "Left Arm". After awhile, I didn't bother rolling. This was found to be a problem with all robots.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by lemming
Instead of Primus, I have an alternative SWORD (stolen from Sam Bell) which is a rather sever organization. Their logo is similar to the Mirror Universe Federation Symbol. (A sword through the Earth).

Special Weapons Ordance Research and Development.

A little silly, since it had all these ex-Nazi scientists involved. "Bring out the women & children dummies for weapon testing!"

I'm doing a bit different theme on it right now, but I'll wait until my players find out before posting what's going on. (Let's just say I've read too much Illuminati and Lovecraft. Probably played too much Paranoia as well):rolleyes:

Umm, sever organization. That sounds extreme.:D

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Shiva13
I worked up my own version. Even have a new name for it. It evolved into true distinctiveness over the years. I combined it with another organization that gave it some more solidity and made it a true worldwide threat. And I feel really good about it.

The original Genocide I always felt was a template to build from. Something with unrealized potential. Potential I consider sorely wasted by The Mutant File and the Rob Liefeld of Hero Authors.

But Steve Long's IHA I think is a great development on the groundwork laid in the original appearances of Genocide in Enemies and AC #2. A very well considered and defined realization of that potential.

All I liked was the Minuteman.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Agent X
All I liked was the Minuteman.

Yeah, but they were SUCH a Sentinels ripoff that my comics savvy player would just roll their eyes. So I took the idea of a Sentinel that could put on a trenchcoat and hat and difappear in a croud and sort of fused the Genocide angle with the Hellfire Club, creating human sized Minutemen.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Yeah, but they were SUCH a Sentinels ripoff that my comics savvy player would just roll their eyes. So I took the idea of a Sentinel that could put on a trenchcoat and hat and difappear in a croud and sort of fused the Genocide angle with the Hellfire Club, creating human sized Minutemen.

I never once said the players like the Minuteman. :D

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Agent X
I never once said the players like the Minuteman. :D

*laugh* Point taken

[Storn]

OT Mister Vimes? I miss your old avatar. I loved that cigar chombing dude.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Storn
OT Mister Vimes? I miss your old avatar. I loved that cigar chombing dude.

Just didn't look as good at 50x50

but for you:


That's a pic from Discworld artist Paul Kidby that I colored in PS.<img src="http://userpic.livejournal.com/856992/182031">

[MisterVimes]

Further off-topic, I was just thinking of you... You said you were running two games, one HERO and one M&M; Have you guys locked down a D20 to HERO conversion that would save us all time when it comes to converting D20 critters to Fantasy HERO?

[Storn]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Further off-topic, I was just thinking of you... You said you were running two games, one HERO and one M&M; Have you guys locked down a D20 to HERO conversion that would save us all time when it comes to converting D20 critters to Fantasy HERO?

No. I just eyeball it. Both Cyberblade and Bryan Fury were done in Hero before we translated them to MM. I have not gone the other way. And if I did, I would just eyeball it again. Especially for d20 fantasy to fantasy hero. I have a lot of experience running FH, so I feel confident on how to set critters to challenge, but not overwhelm characters.

RDU neil is continuing the Champions end. I'm running the MM end. I'm not running both games.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Storn
No. I just eyeball it. Both Cyberblade and Bryan Fury were done in Hero before we translated them to MM. I have not gone the other way. And if I did, I would just eyeball it again. Especially for d20 fantasy to fantasy hero. I have a lot of experience running FH, so I feel confident on how to set critters to challenge, but not overwhelm characters.

RDU neil is continuing the Champions end. I'm running the MM end. I'm not running both games.

Gotcha, thanks for the input and I apologize for derailing the thread.

Back on Topic, some of the nicer Agency ideas I've seen:

Knights of Malta: Very much like the Buffy Knights of Byzantium these misguided enemies of Evil target Mages as 'Spawn of the Devil'

CHESS: A, surprise, surprise, Chess themed group lead by a foursome (BK, WK, BQ, WQ) and served by Knights (Combat agents), Bishops (Asassins), Rooks (Intel Agents) and Pawns (Field agents)

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Superskrull
Then there are a few plans I had for reworking DEMON into more of a Tarot-based group. Seems like I'd find more use for that one though by working it over and feeding it to Agent X as partial background for my PC in his PBEM/summer extravaganza.
Interesting concept, I've been tinkering with a TAROT themed organization myself.

[ogier300]

I always liked the Checkmate organization over in the DC Universe. Highly trained and extremely well-equipped agents who could do some pretty funky stuff. Also chess themed.

Also loved the Suicide Squad concept. That's one I'd like to use as a tournament concept...

"Okay, you're playing Pulsar, he's Ogre, and he's Chesire Cat. You're mission, and you WILL accept it, is to ..."

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by ogier300
I always liked the Checkmate organization over in the DC Universe. Highly trained and extremely well-equipped agents who could do some pretty funky stuff. Also chess themed.

Also loved the Suicide Squad concept. That's one I'd like to use as a tournament concept...

"Okay, you're playing Pulsar, he's Ogre, and he's Chesire Cat. You're mission, and you WILL accept it, is to ..."

That's such a great idea. That would be a great short-term storyline.. Ooooooooooooooh especially if the heroes are 'Away' dealing with the Secret Crisis!

[Pol Rua]

Personally, I like just about all the Champs Organizations... yes, even SAT...

Basically, though, with the exception of Scott Bennie's superlative VIPER book (kudos, mate!), most of them haven't been really heavily detailed (Don't have Super-Agents, so I don't know what that does for UNTIL).

Basically folks, if the organizations are dull, maybe you're running them wrong. Change them. Screw around with the stuff you hate, and keep the stuff you like.
None of this stuff is written in stone!

Basically, what the Champs Organizations provide is a framework, covering the basic archetypical superhero universe organizations. The rest, folks, is up to you!


________________________________________
Pol.
(SAT was in my Silver Age game. A hawkish and rabidly patriotic group, they were a sometime ally/sometime foil for my heroes - they did, of course, later become PRIMUS)

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by Agent X
I made Viper work for me in the old days by subsuming it into COIL. I got rid of the Arthurian angle in COIL (What the?) and ran a plotline where Dr. Draconis was hired to refine the COIL gene. He, of course, started creating dinosaur men. The players did not appreciate facing creatures that had oodles of knockback resistance, damage reduction, and affect a hex melee attacks. I can't understand why? They only had 3s or 4s for Speed. :D

That is cool, been thinking of revamping the old King Cobra character and having him 'restart' the coil. I think he makes a very good 'mastermind' villian who's out to establish a rule via the scientific elite type.

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
I agree. Though I find Anti-Mutant storylines a bit tired, I think this one has a uniqueness and can also be adapted easily into a format where super-humans in general are the atrget (especially in campaigns where superhumanity is not a 'Mutation'.)

I did that with my ABD group (American For Basic Decency) They were a moral 'watchgroup' fashioned after the moral majority but with a covert side that trys to take out 'moraly corrupt or unholy supers'

ABD MEMBER: You, Missy! How dare you prance around in that obsense outfit!! Get home to your husband and PUT SOME CLOTHS ON!!! What, you don't have a husband to obey? Why you HARLOT!

(Where apon the ABD member got jumped by said heroies Fan club and had to be rescued by her.):p

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Tamashii2000
That is cool, been thinking of revamping the old King Cobra character and having him 'restart' the coil. I think he makes a very good 'mastermind' villian who's out to establish a rule via the scientific elite type. Yeah, but get rid of the King Arthur obsession and the Arthurian sorceress. BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD

[misterdeath]

Wow, twice in one day. Someone check the weather forcast for hell.

I concur with Agent X. Pseudoarthurian mysticism does not mix with scientifically mutated elite.

If you have to make a Naga character, give her some sort of reality altering power.

Magic just doesn't fit the style of the organization. It's kind of like having powered armor goons with blaster rifles for DEMON.

D

[Agent X]

Originally posted by misterdeath
Wow, twice in one day. Someone check the weather forcast for hell.

I concur with Agent X. Pseudoarthurian mysticism does not mix with scientifically mutated elite.

If you have to make a Naga character, give her some sort of reality altering power.

Magic just doesn't fit the style of the organization. It's kind of like having powered armor goons with blaster rifles for DEMON.

D Yeah, mixing of archetypes, even in the superhero genre, has to be done with some care. Just because there are no rules to it doesn't mean there is no "Art" to it.

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by misterdeath
Wow, twice in one day. Someone check the weather forcast for hell.

I concur with Agent X. Pseudoarthurian mysticism does not mix with scientifically mutated elite.

If you have to make a Naga character, give her some sort of reality altering power.

Magic just doesn't fit the style of the organization. It's kind of like having powered armor goons with blaster rifles for DEMON.

D

Magic? Ohh no no no, I am not going to have Kobra messing with Magic, going to keep em a pure science group. (when did they get into mysticism? Did i miss that somewhere?)

[misterdeath]

They did a big update of King Cobra in Champions Presents #2. it had King and Queen Cobra, and a bunch of other snake themed people. King Cobra's dementia has progressed, and he believes he's the reincarnation of King Arthur. He's even got Merlin's daughter as Naga, his pet witch.

Things to make you go Hmmmm.

D

[Agent X]

Originally posted by misterdeath
They did a big update of King Cobra in Champions Presents #2. it had King and Queen Cobra, and a bunch of other snake themed people. King Cobra's dementia has progressed, and he believes he's the reincarnation of King Arthur. He's even got Merlin's daughter as Naga, his pet witch.

Things to make you go Hmmmm.

D Things to make you scream in utter horror.

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by misterdeath

Magic just doesn't fit the style of the organization. It's kind of like having powered armor goons with blaster rifles for DEMON.

D

No, no. DEMON has Powered Armor flunkies with "electric nunchaku" and "Vibratory Eyeblasts". Blaster rifles, please.

Seriously, I use DEMON and PRIMUS quite extensivly in my world. I think the PRIMUS e-book is awesome. Granted, I find I have to tweak things to my tastes, but I have to do that with most things. I would like to see a 5th edition organizations book with more Champions Universe information, but if not i'll just make it up.

John Spencer

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer
No, no. DEMON has Powered Armor flunkies with "electric nunchaku" and "Vibratory Eyeblasts". Blaster rifles, please.

Seriously, I use DEMON and PRIMUS quite extensivly in my world. I think the PRIMUS e-book is awesome. Granted, I find I have to tweak things to my tastes, but I have to do that with most things. I would like to see a 5th edition organizations book with more Champions Universe information, but if not i'll just make it up.

John Spencer

Ultimate Organizations anyone?
Or maybe we can trot out Classic Organizations again.
Personally I'd like to see an Org book for each group (COIL, Viper, PRIMUS, Demon and UNTIL) that way we can get more bang for our buck and those who could car less about, say, UNTIL doesn't have a quarter of a book they can't use.

[Keneton]

PRIMUS: I still like. They may seem a little boring, but I think that is on purpose. They are tied to the government, and what government organization is flashy?

DEMON: If your bored with these guys, get out of comics. This organization rocks. You can have so much fun with superscience meets super sorcery. Also individual power mad morbanes make for great splinter factions and plots.

RAVEN: Sucks

ARGENT: New and sort of fun so far. ties to AWAD sound cool to me.

VIPER: Still the best. VIPER team one lead by Vipera, aka Lady Viper makes this gang fun in my campaign. Dont focus on the agents, focus on the plot and the wealth of the organization as Viper squeezes with their NCI!

SAT: Sucks

MARS: Those guns are nasty!!!!

DR. DESTROYER's MINIONS: If you dont like these guys, you don't like superheroes!

TERROR INC: Thos guys were straight 8's and I'm glad there gone. Take 10 Dex Giganto with you!!!

more later. . .

:D

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by misterdeath
They did a big update of King Cobra in Champions Presents #2. it had King and Queen Cobra, and a bunch of other snake themed people. King Cobra's dementia has progressed, and he believes he's the reincarnation of King Arthur. He's even got Merlin's daughter as Naga, his pet witch.

Things to make you go Hmmmm.

D

hmmm.. I think I will convienently forget all about that. :D

[Storn]

Originally posted by Keneton


RAVEN: Sucks
:D

I love Raven, but I'm going off on my own a bit with the organization. To me, they are European in sphere of influence, not guady like Viper, and very interested in the status quo.

but I'm curious (respectfully) why you think they suck. Can you elaborate?

[Peregrine]

Personally, I like the revamp of Raven that they did for Dark Champions. Very nicely presented for the subgenre.

[Klytus]

In my non-C.U. games, the major organizations are...

-The International Paranormal Intelligence League (I.P.I.L.) An UNTIL-like organization.

- Paranormal Affairs Department (P.A.D.) This is the governemnt branch dedicated to dealing wioth paranormals.

- Paranormal Affairs Tactical Response Initiative Oversight Team (P.A.T.R.I.O.T.) Essentially a PRIMUS clone. They have supers as members, but they are, by and large, human agents with high-tech gizmos to help combat evil metahumans. Think of them as the "super-police". When super-villians are captured and hauled away to jail, PATRIOT agents are on the scene.

-STrategic Assessment and Response Squadron (S.T.A.R.S.).The major reason STARS was founded was to keep IPIL off of US soil. They are under the National Security Agency, and they regard metahumans as terrorists - pray PATRIOT gets to you first.

- KRAKEN. Part Illuminati, part VIPER, part SPECTER, all bad.

-PURITY. The anti-metahuman racists who goes after any and all paranormals, be they mutants, magical or aliens.

-The Midnight Coalition: An informal super-villians union where members contribute resources. Mostly, they use the money to pay for lawyers to help them get out of jail. But the lawyers also give folks the oppoortunity to find and hire super-villians as needed.

-The Dominion: Sort of like PSI, they are mentalists out to conquer the world, only they are far more subtle about it. All mentlaists are regarded either as allier or enemies.

- The Order of Zenith (OZ): The mutants (mutants specifically) who are out to conquer the world by dint of their superiority to "mundane humans". All mutants are invited to join. Those who do not are regarded as enemies ot the cause and treated accordingly.

- VAULT: The super-prisons run by a private company under contract with the P.A.D.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
I've always found Genocide to be a bit derivitive... it always seemed like a Marvel re-tread...

Well, they were. The big two at the time were X-Men and the New Teen Titans... and all the Hero crew were big fans (in fact, Mark Williams did quite a series of poster sized color artwork of X-Men & Titans battling their biggest villains).

Very many of the characters created by these guys were based on those two books in one way or another.

[Keneton]

Storn:

Concerning the slam on Raven. I never "got" them. They did not seem distinct enough to me form other organizations. Then again I never saw the revamp version discussed after my post and maybe they got cooler with age (like wine!)

I feel more akin to Viper, but to each his own.
:)
BTW: How do I comission you for a character drawing (if you are still doing this)? You can respond to my e-mail if you prefer. Thanks in advance.

[Pol Rua]

If you want an idea of what differentiates Raven from Viper, here's a bit of shorthand. It's not 100% accurate, but it's not a bad start.

Raven = Hellfire Club. Generally laissez-faire capitalists. Old world money. Aristocracy. Manifest Destiny. European. Non combat influence.
Viper = Hydra. Terrorism. Generally Fascist Aims. Military/Paramilitary techniques. American. Combat Influence.

As I said, not 100%, but some idea re: flavour.


__________________________________________________
Pol.
(CLOWN = Me. Generally anarchist. No money. Geeky Eedjit. Australia. Under the influence.)

[Storn]

Originally posted by Keneton
Storn
BTW: How do I comission you for a character drawing (if you are still doing this)? You can respond to my e-mail if you prefer. Thanks in advance.

And pass up a chance for some self-promotion on public boards? Sheesh, perish the thought. <g>

No, seriously, my website has the info under "Character Commissions". My website is in my sig below.

[tiger]

I still use the following

DEMON: Updated and uses all magical weapons and equipment
Demon is lead by the inner circle who answer to one hidden figure that runs demon totally.

VIPER: Updated and beefed up. Not just you favorite heros punching bag anymore. There is indeed a Supremem Serpent and everyone answers to him.

GENOCIDE: Now the Knights of Geneitic Purity. Much more ctive and dnagerous.

KING COBRA: Changed his name to that of a snake god and is still around and causing problems. Has a host of snakemen working for him and making more all the time

PSI: Use as is from CKC. They have gained a few new enemies.

Until, Primus, SAT(they run the Complex, updated Stronghold) are around as are most villains from CKC

[bubba smith]

PRIMUS: I still like. They may seem a little boring, but I think that is on purpose. They are tied to the government, and what government organization is flashy?

DEMON: If your bored with these guys, get out of comics. This organization rocks. You can have so much fun with superscience meets super sorcery. Also individual power mad morbanes make for great splinter factions and plots.

RAVEN: Sucks

ARGENT: New and sort of fun so far. ties to AWAD sound cool to me.

VIPER: Still the best. VIPER team one lead by Vipera, aka Lady Viper makes this gang fun in my campaign. Dont focus on the agents, focus on the plot and the wealth of the organization as Viper squeezes with their NCI!

SAT: Sucks

MARS: Those guns are nasty!!!!

DR. DESTROYER's MINIONS: If you dont like these guys, you don't like superheroes!

TERROR INC: Thos guys were straight 8's and I'm glad there gone. Take 10 Dex Giganto with you!!!

more later. . .

:D
straight 8s?

[Vondy]

straight 8s?

I don't think you'll ket much of a response... keneton hasn't posted in quite some time. Last Post: Feb 24th, '05 05:40 AM.

[bubba smith]

could someone explain the expression straight 8s to me then? thanks

[caris]

could someone explain the expression straight 8s to me then? thanks

It has to refer to an "average, non-heroic" character would be assumed to have 8s in all the Primary Characteristics. Either the OP was so unimpressed with Terror, Inc. that he felt they were as boring and lacking in challenge as a character with 8s in all their Primary Characteristics, or the actual write up of the agents for Terror, Inc. gave them all 8s in their primary characteristics (which I could see given how the whole group felt like "these are who you train on until you can handle Dr. Destroyer). Can anyone confirm what the characteristics Terror, Inc agents had?

[bubba smith]

thanks caris

[Legatus]

It has to refer to an "average, non-heroic" character would be assumed to have 8s in all the Primary Characteristics. Either the OP was so unimpressed with Terror, Inc. that he felt they were as boring and lacking in challenge as a character with 8s in all their Primary Characteristics, or the actual write up of the agents for Terror, Inc. gave them all 8s in their primary characteristics (which I could see given how the whole group felt like "these are who you train on until you can handle Dr. Destroyer). Can anyone confirm what the characteristics Terror, Inc agents had?


In 4th Ed. Classic Enemies:

Agent of Terror Incorporated

STR 10
DEX 14
CON 10
BODY 8
INT 8
EGO 8
COM 8
PD 5
ED 5
SPD 3
REC 4
END 20
STUN 18

[Legatus]

I don't think you'll ket much of a response... keneton hasn't posted in quite some time. Last Post: Feb 24th, '05 05:40 AM.

BTW great idea to reply to a five year old post :D:eek::D Go Bubba!:king:

[TheQuestionMan]

I LOVE VOICE. I just haven't used them yet. I had a great idea for VOICE once. I was going to have a Chinese Superteam, the Heroes, and VOICE fight over the Panchen Lama. It was inspired by the Chinese kidnapping of the Panchen Lama and the installation of their own choice of Panchen Lama. I was stunned that the Chinese would so baldly hurt a little boy for their political purposes. Sadly, I had to move away for awhile.

VOICE of Doom by Enforcer84
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27274&highlight=VOICE

VOICE List by Captain Liberty
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9273&highlight=VOICE

The Tiger Squad Sourcebook by TheQuestionMan
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59885&highlight=Tiger+Squad

Panchen Lama
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchen_Lama

The Golden Child (1986), Eddie Murphy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Child


Hmmm...


QM

[bubba smith]

BTW great idea to reply to a five year old post :D:eek::D Go Bubba!:king:
thanks[i think]

[TheQuestionMan]

Better to revive an old Thread than repeat the Thread multipule times.


IMOHO


QM

[Vondy]

Better to revive an old Thread than repeat the Thread multipule times.


IMOHO


QM

This is probably true.