Old Wounds Reopened. Supes/Thor

[Acroyear]

You know the ol' argument that Thor would totally creamulate the man of steel because he's "magical" and Superman would be paste?

<img src="http://perso.libertysurf.co.uk/chris.hayes/svwpic3.gif">

That might not seem to be the case...


As she gets to her feet and sees the red and blue blur of her opponent streaking towards her she realises that although he is her friend, she must have no questions of conscience. Using all her might, she clouts him with a double handed blow, hitting him so hard that had they not been in the vaccum of space, the blast from the blow would have echoed for a hundred miles!

One might say that Thor's godly strength is no different than Wonder Woman's. Or Captain Marvel's. Cap usually has the upper hand in these fights, though (and there has been more than just the Kingdom Come face off).

Since the lightning Thor calls isn't really "magic lightning" either... but actual lightning... that's a no go, imo.

I'd say that, discounting Supe's speed (which we can't deny he has but can all agree he doesn't use to best efficiency) I'd say it might not be the punk-fest some forsee. It'll hurt Supes, but he won't be a splattered. He comes back after that WW punch... not really all that damaged.


As he is sent flying, he too realises that he has been pulling his own punches because his opponent is both a woman and a friend. As of right now though, that ends!

He finally collides with one of the massive stone columns from the ruined city and using his super strength, lifts the massive carving above his head...


Just something to consider when it inevitably comes around again.

Doncha just hate it?

[Acroyear]

Figures...

Here's the smack...

<img src="http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=52531">

[Enforcer84]

True about the strength, but I always assumed the "magical" effect was that of the Enchanted Uru Hammer Bouncing off blueblack hair.

Supes forgets his superspeed on a daily basis.

I think Thor vs Superman would be a smackdown slugfest of epic proportions with both men compliementing the other's power, skill, and determination.

Then an audience poll would declare Batman the winner.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Enforcer84
Then an audience poll would declare Batman the winner.

Heh heh.

Well, I was just commenting, really, on the oft held belief (even by me on occasion) that the strength or the hammer would turn Supes into jello. However, we've seen time and time again that it isn't the case. It hurts him, but it seems to hurt him little more than one strong guy punching another strong guy real hard... be it magic fist, magic steel girder, or whatever...

I saw this while wandering and decided to share.

[Insaniac99]

i don't think it is the strength they are tlaking about, it is actual magical things i thought, not things derived from magic, for example the Captain marvel has his strength from Magic, but he doesn't really hit harder to supes (last i checked i am out of the loop with Comics) but magical weapons (like WW's sword such as in Kingdom come) and since Thor's hammer is magical, it would HURT much more, i think... i wouldn't say it would pulp supes like others say but he would feel it a whole lot harder than if thor had just hit him with his fist.

this is just my guess though...

[Gary]

How many points of enviromental movement do you have to buy, to fight in Wonder Woman's high heels without penalty? :D

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Insaniac99
since Thor's hammer is magical, it would HURT much more, i think... i wouldn't say it would pulp supes like others say but he would feel it a whole lot harder than if thor had just hit him with his fist.

Well, Thor's hammer is made of magical metal. There's nothing, as far as I know know, to indicate it is enchanted to do more damage than the strength behind it (except maybe to giants). The hardness of the metal allows it to survive such tremendous blows. That is, if Captain America swings the hammer, I don't think he's going to be toppling skyscrapers and such. Someone might have better info there, though.

I also don't much expect Thor could take a magic wand and stab Supes through the chest just on the principle that it's a "magic" wand, y'know?

WW's sword we know is magical (since it cut him)... but nothing else. It may be enchanted to do more damage (like a common D&D magic sword)... for all we know, anyone with the sword can cut through a vault door like butter. It's a tough one to include in the discussion, really.

We might assume Superman is clumsier than us humans when it comes to handling sharp or pointy objects and, thus, no damage enchantment is needed. Or, he may actually be more cautious with such things since his great strength could easily destroy most objects. So I guess that's a personal decision again :)

[Killer Shrike]

I think Supes bought his Super Speed with RSR: Int -- which explains why he regularly forgets he has it.

[Lord Liaden]

For me, the last poll/discussion thread on this subject pretty much hashed it out to death. Anyone interested can check it out here:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58&highlight=thor+AND+superman

Please continue to debate as you wish - I think I'll sit this one out. ;)

[Crimson Arrow]

Lord Liaden's right of course, but I didn't enter the argument last time.:)

In the legends, Mjolnir was magical. It was forged by dwarfs in a contest to produce magic items for three of the Norse gods. Even taking into account the differences between Marvel Thor and the mythological one, the hammer is obviously magical. It allows Thor to travel dimensionally, always returns to his hand and can summon lightning (in the comics).

If Cap used the hammer, maybe he could not knock down a building, but isn't the test how much damage Mjolnir does compared to another similar-sized hammer wielded by the same person? You could say it's only because it's made of uru, or whatever and is therefore heavier and harder than the materials used in an ordinary warhammer, but I think the dwarfs would have been pretty slack not to make it a great weapon.

As to the magic wand. I think some writers would hold that it did hurt Superman. I don't think I would, but Mjolnir is a magic weapon, designed and enchanted as such.

They may have changed this (I have barely read any Marvel stuff for 10 years), but the Marvel version of the hammer used to be able to project an energy beam from the hammer itself. I am pretty certain that would be a magical attack.

I have been wondering if Superman should not be written up with a multipower or VPP of some description. He never seems capable of using superspeed at the same time as using ALL of his strength. His battles with Doomsday seem to evidence this. While Doomsday is very fast, I do not think he has speed like Superman's, yet Superman never seems to outpace Doomsday.

As to WW's sword, Superman's probably so used to handling sharp objects with impunity that he is not careful around them.

Just my 2p worth!

[Jeff T.]

I started the last big Supes/Thor thread, and I've seen it argued a dozen or so times. I don't recall anyone plausibly making the argument that a magical character's 'strength' could damage Supes (actually this is the first I've even seen it mentioned).

Thor's hammer is obviously a magic weapon (and if you hold to actual myth, it was so 'powerful and blazing hot' that Thor needed a magical glove just to grab it). As a general rule in the comics, when Thor hits with Mjolnir its a bigger wallop than a punch from his fist. Thor once asked Odin to allow him to fight the Hulk without the hammer so the fight would be 'fair'.

I think the 'magic weapon' producing all sorts of magic effects (such as XD movement USABLE ON OTHERS , and his Anti-Energy beam) gives him the edge. It'd be more equal if Supes ever used his superspeed.

[Nuadha]

In Champions terms, I see it this way: Supes has no Power Defense against magic and can be transformed, drained and everything else by sorcerers, whether it's Dr. Fate or Mr. Myxzptlk. However, if the Socrcerer cast a spell to make Batman superstrong, Batman's punch would still be against Superman's amazing, but not completely invulnerable, hardened rPD and Damage Reduction.

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by Nuadha
In Champions terms, I see it this way: Supes has no Power Defense against magic and can be transformed, drained and everything else by sorcerers, whether it's Dr. Fate or Mr. Myxzptlk. However, if the Socrcerer cast a spell to make Batman superstrong, Batman's punch would still be against Superman's amazing, but not completely invulnerable, hardened rPD and Damage Reduction.

Then again, Supes clearly has a vulnerability to the base attacks of magical creatures. Action Comics Annual #1 (Arthur Adams art) has Supes raked by the claws of a vampire. A 1d6k (mayby 2d6) and it cut him. Clearly his rPD was not effective vs. claws from a creature that is magical.

What is the difference between the claws of a magical creature and the fist of a magical creature? In game terms, killing damage vs. normal damage. Supes seems to have enormous rPD/rED and probably some Damage Reduction (putting him at the "nigh invulnerable" level)... but the Damage resistance has "Not vs. magical attacks or magical creatures."

Therefore, Thor or WW's fists don't do extra damage... nor would a shot from Mjolnir (as that is still normal damage, in my book) but Mjolnier is probably an extra 10d6 damage on top of Thor's STR... so it is a huge hit, as well.


Oh... and Supes probably has Vulnerability: Magical Attacks, x2 Effect (not Stun or Body) to make Drains, etc., very effective on him, if magical.

[Blue]

Can't we get to a more life affirming argument? Like Jesus v. Superman? ("I've got you now, superman! I've... um... changed all your water into wine. There! That'll show you.")

I may mock, but I actually like these sorts of things.

The unfortunate part of this is that you can come up with a time when each one of them (Thor and Superman) did the impossible or was felled by the impossible, because they've each had hundreds of different writers with different takes on the character's level of ability.

Does anyone remember the old Avengers issue where they fought a group of superheroes who were basically JLA knockoffs? (I want to say they had a snappy name like the Squadron Superme?) Was Thor part of that Avengers team? I'd like to remember what the take was of the writers in that one regarding their fight (although it would admittedly be very stilted toward Marvel).

[Nuadha]

Originally posted by RDU Neil
Then again, Supes clearly has a vulnerability to the base attacks of magical creatures. Action Comics Annual #1 (Arthur Adams art) has Supes raked by the claws of a vampire. A 1d6k (mayby 2d6) and it cut him. Clearly his rPD was not effective vs. claws from a creature that is magical.

What is the difference between the claws of a magical creature and the fist of a magical creature? In game terms, killing damage vs. normal damage. Supes seems to have enormous rPD/rED and probably some Damage Reduction (putting him at the "nigh invulnerable" level)... but the Damage resistance has "Not vs. magical attacks or magical creatures."

Therefore, Thor or WW's fists don't do extra damage... nor would a shot from Mjolnir (as that is still normal damage, in my book) but Mjolnier is probably an extra 10d6 damage on top of Thor's STR... so it is a huge hit, as well.


Oh... and Supes probably has Vulnerability: Magical Attacks, x2 Effect (not Stun or Body) to make Drains, etc., very effective on him, if magical.

Good point, Neil. I did think of that annual and a few instances with magic swords as the few cases where I remember physical magical attacks as affecting Superman and was ready to chalk that up as the writers and leave that out of "my Champions version of Superman", but I think you're right that every time he's shown a real vulnerability to magical attacks, its been a killing attack.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Starlord
As a general rule in the comics, when Thor hits with Mjolnir its a bigger wallop than a punch from his fist. Thor once asked Odin to allow him to fight the Hulk without the hammer so the fight would be 'fair'.

If I hit someone with a hammer from the hardware store, it's a much bigger whallop than if I hit someone with my fist. That does not make the impact damage "magical." ;)

It's a weapon. It's supposed to strike harder than a bare fist. The question is, does it strike harder than a weapon made of such material & backed with such strength? Is the damage actually enhanced by magic? I know of no instance were this is even hinted at.

I'm pointing out that none of Thor's actual common damaging effects are anything but mundane. Hitting with a hammer, normal lightning bolts. If you start tossing in extremely rare powers, you have to allow Supes to do the same (in which case, Thor is no match). The most common "Thor wins" argument is that Thor is magical and Superman is defenseless against magic. I'm just pointing out that this doesn't seem to be a very accurate point.

Superman freqently does seem to be on the losing side when up against magic themed characters (like Captain Marvel... I believe he's had the upper hand in every fight I've read) but it's certainly not *bap* oh, Mr. Kent is now a smear on the rug. :)

Like I said, I came across this WW fight while wandering and felt it was somewhat thought provoking.

[Hermit]

I still think they'd end up sharing a drink and comparing hair care tips.

[Insaniac99]

Originally posted by Acroyear
It's a weapon. It's supposed to strike harder than a bare fist. The question is, does it strike harder than a weapon made of such material & backed with such strength? Is the damage actually enhanced by magic? I know of no instance were this is even hinted at.

I seem to remember that when thor gets really ticked off and is hitting the hardest he can a glow or something surrounds the hammer and trails as he swings it, since Thor's power is magical and he is increaseing the damage with this energy then it would hurt more against Supes...


i don't think he would be splatted in one hit but i think maybe also thte Damage reduction is bought "not against magical attacks or attacks from magical beings" so he still gets his regular PD and ED but then he doesn't get to use his Damage reduction so he isn't splattered but he gets hit harder than he would anyway...

[Klytus]

How this fight would end all depends on how Supes is built. I agree with the idea that folks have put forward on this board, that in Champs terms, Superman's Resistant Defenses and Damage Reduction have the Lim: Not vs Magic. However, he still does have huge amounts of PD & ED, and insane CON to back it up. In the War of the Gods thread (many years ago) he once intercepted a blast of pure magic that was meant to 'nuke' Paradise Island. The blast knocked him out cold, and he didn't absorb the entire blast- he only weakened it - but that is still an impresive amount of toughness for a man vulnerable to magic.

So, even if we define Thor's hammer as a "magical" SFX attack, it still isn't going to smear the Big S. It'll sure hurt him more than he would expect, but once he knows how much it can hurt him, Supes will take that into consideration for the rest of the fight.

And yes, Superman does remember that he has super-speed. But as was so cleanly defined in the Man of Steel mini-series when he was "remade" in the early 90's, he is in the habbit of holding back because most people he fights aren't even as remotely powerful as he is. But once you show Big Blue what kind of punishment is required to take you down, he can dish it out in spades.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Insaniac99
I seem to remember that when thor gets really ticked off and is hitting the hardest he can a glow or something surrounds the hammer and trails as he swings it, since Thor's power is magical and he is increaseing the damage with this energy then it would hurt more against Supes...

I don't think I've seen that. But if that's the case, I'd say Supes is in a heap more trouble, myself :)

I have seen the godforce bolts and such (and we know they hit hard... they've stopped Juggernaut while moving! Well, until the ground him exploded from the insane pressure that caused) but I kind of consider that so rarely used it should be lumped in with Superman traveling through time by flying real fast.... that is, not really counted.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Acroyear
If I hit someone with a hammer from the hardware store, it's a much bigger whallop than if I hit someone with my fist. That does not make the impact damage "magical." ;)

It's a weapon. It's supposed to strike harder than a bare fist. The question is, does it strike harder than a weapon made of such material & backed with such strength? Is the damage actually enhanced by magic? I know of no instance were this is even hinted at.


I hate to bring 'realistic' science into this type of argument, but at that level of power your argument has no merit. A hammer hits harder than my fist because its made of a harder substance than a human hand (metal or wood) and often because of its extra weight.

In other words, if I ripped your arm off and beat you with it, it ain't gonna do much more damage than my fist.

Thor's fists (and Supes for that matter) don't 'give' like a human being. If the hammer is just an extension of that, it has no particular reason to do more damage.

Frankly, I'm flat out stunned at your last sentence I quoted. My first thought was "Has he ever READ an issue of Thor or the Avengers?" I'm SURE that is not the case, though.

It is suggested dozens of times throughout both comics. There are numerous statements by Thor alluding to this fact. Odin has spoken of the magical damage the hammer can cause. Not to mention (if you require visual means) Thor has, on several occasions, made the hammer blaze, combust, and so forth, with magical energy whenever he wants to deal out a particularly telling blow to an opponent.


It wouldn't be a one blow fight, obviously. Two heroes never actually decide a victor, they end up teaming against the bad guy. But if you want a clear victor, based on how they are generally used in their respective comics, I say the odds are in Thor's favor.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Starlord
Thor's fists (and Supes for that matter) don't 'give' like a human being. If the hammer is just an extension of that, it has no particular reason to do more damage.

So it's your opinion that Thor's hammer is not as/only as "hard" as his fist?


Frankly, I'm flat out stunned at your last sentence I quoted. My first thought was "Has he ever READ an issue of Thor or the Avengers?" I'm SURE that is not the case, though.

Perhaps you should be more stunned at...


Thor's principal weapon is the enchanted hammer named Mjolnir, one of the most formidable weapons known to man or god. Forged out of the mystical metal uru, whose chief properties are durability and ability to maintain enchantment, the hammer is two feet long and its handle is wrapped in leather which terminates in a thong. Besides being a nearly indestructible throwing weapon, the hammer has been given six enchantments by Odin to augment its physical qualities.
Enchantment #1: No living being can lift the hammer from the ground unless he or she is worthy.
Enchantment #2: The hammer will return to the exact spot from which it is thrown after striking its target.
Enchantment #3: The hammer enables the wielder to summon the elements of storm (wind, rain, thunder, lightning, etc.) Acro Note: these are the actual elements, not magical ones. Thor has dominion over the elements
Enchantment #4: The hammer can open interdimensional portals, allowing its wielder to travel to other dimensions, such as from Earth to Asgard.
Enchantment #5: Bestowed on the hammer by Odin in recent times, it enabled Thor to transform into the mortal Don Blake by stamping the hammer once upon the ground and willing the change to occur. Since Thor has not had the alterego of Don Blake for quite some time now it is unknown if this power is still in effect or if it has been modified.
Enchantment #6: By throwing the hammer and grasping its leather thong, Thor can magically propel himself through the air in the semblance of flight. Just as the hammer can magically change its course in order to return to his hand when he throws it, so can it be influenced by its wielder to change its course while it is in his grasp in flight.


Here's a link to his game stats which look partially or wholly cribbed from MU or, I assume, the official listing of his abilities in MSH.

http://users.ev1.net/~peanut/bio-thor.html

There's a link there for the hammer, itself. No amplified damage listed.

Which brings me back to the point of the damage Thor deals out, as impressive as it is, is not actually "magic" in a way that Superman seems especially vulnerable to thus making it not the beat down imagined by some.

I did, however, find this on a fan page:


9. Mystic energy blast (Mjolnir)

Thor is able to project powerful mystic energy blasts from his hammer. This tactic is typically only used against opponents that also use energy-based attacks. Similarly, Thor can fire lightning bolts directly from Mjolnir. When this is done, the power of the lightning is magnified greatly.

Emphasis mine. Meaning that's gonna be some meeeean lightning and qualifies, imo, as magical. Not to mention the godforce blast, itself.

http://www.freetech.org/~thor/about/powers.htm

Check out the forgotten powers list... Hurricane Breath! :D

Still nothing saying the smack from the hammer is enhanced beyond the hardness of the metal and the strength behind it, though. *shrug*

Just some interesting analysis, is all.

[majorvictory]

Good points, one and all. But you're all missing one extremely important point. The current-era Supes has been active for about 10 years. Thor is a warrior god of a warrior people who has about 1500 years of combat exp. under that Belt of Strength. Supes is truly the icon of superhero icons, but Thor's just a darn good fighter who's seen it all. Case closed.

[RevHooligan]

But what if Thor dropped that hammer and Clark Kent picked it up? Surely Clark would be worthy of it and go all BetaRay Bill and shiznit! Would'nt you love that John Byrne splashpage?

[Morningstar]

Major Victory makes the most important point and I have one more big one to add. Thor has NEVER had a problem hitting anyone with super speed. Does the silver surfer ring a bell? He pummeled him severley the last time they fought. How about Gladiator, another Superman clone? He had no problem hitting him and his super speed either. Century upon century of fighting gods, giants, etc. Put him in another class of fighters than humans. Did anyone read the Wizard magazine years ago that pitted them against each other? Thor was given the nod on 2 different ocassions. The classic line was superMAN vs. thunderGOD. That was the difference.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Acroyear
So it's your opinion that Thor's hammer is not as/only as "hard" as his fist?


I'm saying at Supes' and Thor's respective power levels it shouldn't make a difference whether they hit you with their fists, uru mallets, adamantium crowbars, etc. They are ALL superhard objects coming at you with superfast speed.

The rest we can agree to (slightly) disagree. I presented the hammer's abilities as I've seen in Thor/Avengers comics. I'll gladly claim bias as Thor is one of my favs. :)

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Starlord
I hate to bring 'realistic' science into this type of argument, but at that level of power your argument has no merit. A hammer hits harder than my fist because its made of a harder substance than a human hand (metal or wood) and often because of its extra weight.A hammer or other item with a handle also hits harder because the extra length adds more leverage. Thats why spear throwers such as Neolithic man used work, and why a guy with a 2 foot spear thrower can throw an identical spear nearly twice as far.

Doubt it? Hit something with a fist-sized rock as hard as you can. Then attach that same rock to an 18" handle and try it again. Waaay more power.

Just thought I'd throw this in since we're having a realistic scientific discussion of whether an alien can defeat a god. :D

[Klytus]

Originally posted by majorvictory
Good points, one and all. But you're all missing one extremely important point. The current-era Supes has been active for about 10 years. Thor is a warrior god of a warrior people who has about 1500 years of combat exp. under that Belt of Strength. Supes is truly the icon of superhero icons, but Thor's just a darn good fighter who's seen it all. Case closed.

That was before Superman and Wonder Woman got sent into a Ragnarock-type battle against demons for 1000 years...

[starblaze]

Well I think we are also missing out on SuperMans other abilities aside from just superstrength. Remember that Clark doesn't have to get close to Thor in order to hurt him. He not only has heat vision he also has super-breath and independent flight. Thor needs his hammer to get around, SuperMan doesn't. Also even though SuperMan has only been active for about 10 years he also has access to Kryptonion knowledge and tactics.

Also on the subject of Thor's hammer, what if SuperMan disarms Thor, does that even the odds. I mean all he would have to do is heat vision his hand and make Thor drop Mjornir and then use superspeed to pummel.

All I am saying is don't just rule the Big Blue Boy Scout out just yet.

[Crimson Arrow]

Well Thor wouldn't drop the hammer if he was wearing Jarn Grieper (I think his gauntlets got into Marvel Comics at some point). That could come as a surprise to Supes! In fact that would be an excellent feature of a fight between these two.

Reading all these posts makes me think that Round 1 goes to Thor. Superman recovers, does some research/uses Kryptonian technology and doesn't hold back and wins Round 2. Then they team up and take out Loki and Lex Luthor who are obviously the ones behind the fight in the first place. :D

[Morningstar]

Supermans "other powers", which always means heat vision, are nothing compared to Thors"other powers". Thor routinely, not rarely, uses, energy powers to blast, drain, blind, remove enchatments, refect attacks back, teleport, teleport foes to alternate dimensions, etc. His energy blasts can knock down mountains, punch holes through celestials armor, drain ultron or the presence of there powers etc. Heat Vision?? Come on, do you really think Thor is going to be bothered by heat vision when firelords blasts dont stop him. He is just simply a much more diverse powerful character. Gladiators heat vision and speed didn't stop him.

I don't think the "magic" issue about Thors hammer would inherently bother Superman, but if he needed it Thor could certainly bring it up, like for example removing the Juggernauts force field with a spell to allow him to pumel him.(just one of Thors many examples of being able to whip up anything he needs)

If you are just talking about a toe to toe slugfest, than these two iconic characters poiund on each other for days but pulling out all the stops, Thor has way too much.

Someone brought up "Hyperion" one of the JLA ripoffs that copied Superman. Hyperion was powerful enough to push wonderman through the center of the planet and break his bones with blows, but has been beaten every time he faces Thor

[Morningstar]

BTW, Thor no longer has an alter ego and the hammer's powers do not transfer or transform anyone else who grabs it. Odin removed that quite a while ago.

Also Thor is currently the Lord of Asgard and has all of Odins former power as well. I am sure it won't stay that way but currently a fight between them wouldn't be remotely close.(Thor just reassembled the moon molecule by molecule after it was destroyed)

[Nuadha]

Superman's other powers: Heat Vision, Super-speed, Super-breath, Flight, Super-hearing, Microscopic Vision, Telescopic Vision, X-Ray Vision, Time Travel, The ability to survive prolonged periods in the vacuum of space, Super-ventriloquism (No Joke! Pre-crisis!), Amnesia kisses (Superman 2), Repair-the-great-wall-of-China Vision (Superman 4), Spiritual Combat (recent issues- through a Kryptonian Martial Art).

I know I'm missing a few.

[Nuadha]

As far as Thor being a god, Superman recently beat the snot out of Darkseid, a god, in one-on-one combat.

[Morningstar]

What everyone means by others powers in this conversation is powers that could actually help defeat a powerful opponent like we are debating. I dont think Super ventrilaquism will help him defeat Thor. and I don't think anyone feels the cheesy powers from the movies exist in the comics. Other powers also didn't mean super speed as that is just as much an inherent part of him as invulnerability or strength.

[Morningstar]

"."As far as Thor being a god, Superman recently beat the snot out of Darkseid, a god, in one-on-one combat.

What I believe the Wizard magazine author was trying to point out was the relative power differences in the two. This is not to say every comic god is better in combat than every mortal. It is safe to say that Ares or Sif(of Marvel) wouln't be able to handle the Juggernaut. He was simply stating that Thor is too much for Superman, that all.

[Nuadha]

Not having read any recent Thor comics, I'm not really arguing whether current-Supes could beat current Thor. I just want to make sure that it known that Superman's "other powers" includes more than heat-vision and that the argument that Thor wins because he's a god doesn't hold up. Besides Darkseid, one of the most powerful beings in the DC universe, the current Superman has fought in the battle of Ragnorok side-by-side with DC's Thor and fought the Mayan Quetzacoatl (and if I remember correctly, he won).

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
A hammer or other item with a handle also hits harder because the extra length adds more leverage. Thats why spear throwers such as Neolithic man used work, and why a guy with a 2 foot spear thrower can throw an identical spear nearly twice as far.

Doubt it? Hit something with a fist-sized rock as hard as you can. Then attach that same rock to an 18" handle and try it again. Waaay more power.

Just thought I'd throw this in since we're having a realistic scientific discussion of whether an alien can defeat a god. :D

Completely agree, the whip-like action of a bat or similar object enables you to generate more speed...but I still don't think it any of that applies when mountain-shattering punches can already be thrown by these two individuals.

[levi]

Wizard finally did this match up in their Last Man Standing feature this month. In their summation it was the magic lightning generated by Mjolnir that finished Supes off, not the hammer blows themselves.

[Jeff T.]

Can't believe I have to defend Supes here, but I don't think the fact that Thor is a 'god' matters one bit. In the Marvel Universe, 'gods' are essentially extradimensional superpowerful aliens. Take out the XD part, and you've got Supes. One is powered by magic, the other by yellow sun radiation (or whatever...Supes has been changed so much who knows what his actual origin is anymore. I prefer the nice simple version that I provided.).

[Acroyear]

I'd agree, the magic lightning would batter Supes down. It's the blow by blow part where I imagine it would be drawn out (is Supes stronger than Thor, anyway?). I haven't been keeping up with the current Thor. I'm sure he'll be de-powered in a while... sounds like he's totally over the top now.

[William Bushway]

I think Thor's only handicap in such a fight is that he's not a quick thinker. He's pretty easily tricked and suprised.

And as for the hammer not making a difference because their punches can level mountains by themselves? I would say that a mountain-shattering punch from either character could be taken by the other. So if they're evenly matched in the strength/invulnerability department, the hammer is an advantage.

Assuming the mystical "uru" metal is hard enough not to shatter when hitting Supes' skin (I'd bet it is, especially factoring in the enchantment), using the hammer allows Thor to apply his full strength on the target without breaking his hand.

Think about it - if you and I are otherwise evenly matched, and you're unarmed and I have a sledgehammer (and I have the strength and 1500 years of practice to use it), I will be able to hit you harder than you hit me.

And if you go by the interpretation that enchanted items utterly bypass Supes' invulnerability, he'd be just like a normal guy being hit by Thor's hammer (with Thors godly strength behind it). Chunky salsa anyone?

[Insaniac99]

Originally posted by William Bushway
Think about it - if you and I are otherwise evenly matched, and you're unarmed and I have a sledgehammer (and I have the strength and 1500 years of practice to use it), I will be able to hit you harder than you hit me.

i agree with what you are saying but this is a REALLY bad example because that sladge hammer would still slow you down, giving me a speed advantage now supes is faster than thor but thor can hit harder and he doesn't move slower because of his hammer.

[KawangaKid]

Originally posted by Starlord
I hate to bring 'realistic' science into this type of argument, but at that level of power your argument has no merit. A hammer hits harder than my fist because its made of a harder substance than a human hand (metal or wood) and often because of its extra weight.
A hammer hits harder than a fist because it's made of a harder substance, has a bit of extra weight... and is a simple machine called a lever.

[Bazza]

To My mind, Thor is not a "magical" person per say ie there is nothing inheiriantly magical about the Thunder God. From the two links provided above by Acroyear it stated that uru was an heirant mystical element that can hold enchantment. Q: does "mystical" = "magical"?

It was hinted in Thor about #491 that the Asgardian Gods in Marvel are extraterristical beings just like a certain wunder-alien. Thor is no more "god" than Morgan le Fey. Remember that the Marvel Gods retreated to their otherworldly realms and left mortalkind alone. If the current Marvel superheroes were transplanted back then, would they be viewed as the Asgardian Gods (and others) were...as "gods"?

To Me Thor = god is about perspectitve, there is many mortals on NYC who doubt that Thor is "god".

Also no-one has yet brought up Asgard's Destroyer Armour or the fact that Thor's mother is Gaea. Can you guess by bias? Thor fan.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by William Bushway
And if you go by the interpretation that enchanted items utterly bypass Supes' invulnerability, he'd be just like a normal guy being hit by Thor's hammer (with Thors godly strength behind it). Chunky salsa anyone?

:rolleyes:

Which was part of the point of this post. That does not appear to be the case.

[Pattern Ghost]

Of course, we all know the Tick would win.

SPOON!

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
If the hammer is not considered magical (and if it's not, what books have you been reading?)

No one says the hammer isn't magical to some degree. The debate is wether or not the impact from the hammer is magic special effect or if it's mundane. Everything I could find doesn't say anything about the damage of the hammer being magically enhanced in any way, meaning impacts from it are mundane.

It's nigh unbreakable property is not even a form of enchantment, either... it is simply a property of the metal (like, say, adamantium or whatever). Another property is that it can hold enchantments. That's it.

Quoting found info again (if anyone has better info out there, share share share)...

Beta Ray's

The enchanted hammer Stormbreaker, made of mystic uru metal, which is nearly indestructible, and given the following enchantments by Odin. 1) No living being, unless he/she be worthy, can lift the hammer. 2) It will return to the exact spot from which it was thrown. 3) It enables the wielder to control the elements of storm and to project forms of mystical energy. 4) It enables the wielder to open trans-dimensional portals. 5) It enables Beta Ray Bill to transform himself into his mortal (non-cyborg) form. 6) It enables the wielder to fly.

And Thor's (note below the text "besides being nearly indestructable, it has been given six enchantments" indicating its hardness is not part of the enchantment).


Thor wields the enchanted hammer named Mjolnir, one of the most formidable weapons known to man or god. Forged out of the mystical metal uru, whose chief properties are durability and ability to maintain enchantment, the hammer is 2 feet long and its handle is wrapped in leather which terminates in a thong. Besides being a nearly indestructible throwing weapon, the hammer has been given six enchantments by Odin to augment its physical qualities

No living being can lift the hammer from the ground unless he or she is worthy. Provisions to that enchantment require that there can be but one worthy wielder of the hammer at a given time, and the current wielder must be bested in fair combat by a worthy contestant in order for that contestant to win it.

Causes the hammer to return to the exact spot from which it is thrown after striking its target.

Enables its wielder to summon the elements of storm (wind, rain, thunder, and lightning) by stamping its handle once on the ground.

Enables the hammer to open interdimensional portals, allowing its wielder to travel to other dimensions, such as from Earth to Asgard. (It is now know how Thor determines which dimension he wishes to travel to.)

Given the hammer by Odin in recent times, enables Thor to transform into the guise of a mortal, physician Donald Blake, by stamping the hammer's head to the ground twice. A provision of this enchantment requires that the hammer can not be out of Thor' s hand for more than one minute without his spontaneous reversion to his mortal self. When Thor transforms to Blake, his hammer takes the appearance of a gnarled wooden walking stick. So disguised, the hammer's enchantments limiting those who could lift it are not in effect.

The hammer had one enchantment that has been rescinded. Formerly the hammer could be swung in such a way as to generate chronal displacement inertia enabling its wielder to travel through time. This property, discrete from the hammer's dimension-spanning ability, was recently taken away by Immortus, whose mastery over time exceeds that of the gods themselves.

By throwing the hammer and grasping its leather thong, Thor can magically propel himself through the air in the semblance of flight. Just as the hammer can magically change its course in order to return to his hand when he thew it, so can it be influenced by its wielder to change its course while it was in his grasp. The precise manner in which Thor "steers" his hammer while in flight is no known, nor is the precise speed and distance Thor can attain with a single throw. Thor has been observed to be able to attain escape velocity from Earth's gravity with a single throw and to overtake space vessels.

Superman's vulnerability is to magic. Not to magically enchanted objects. There is a difference. Magic affects him as if he were mortal. If it were a magic sword that cuts better than a sword should due to enchanment, then, yes... it cuts him. If it were a magic sword that gives its owner nightvision and doesn't affect how the damage strikes, at all... then I'd say no.

This, essentially, is what we're trying to determine and to which I can find no actual evidence to the contrary of my stated position.

Supes is still in trouble when it comes to that magic lightning, though.

:)

[Morningstar]

I dont think it really matters if the hammers damage is magical(I really have never seen an indication that the damage is magical, just pure blunt force) Thor has been fighting other gods, giants, cosmic beings of massive proportions for thousands of years. His battle skills are unmatched.

The argument about Superman being too fast is lame since Thor has never had a problem hitting ultra fast beings. It doesn't get faster than the Silver Surfer, and Thor had no trouble pounding him unconcious in there last fight. Here are some decent examples:

GLADIATOR- KOed Thing with one blow, a feat never accomplished by the Hulk or anyone else, then "blew out" the Human Torch with his super breath(sound familiar), before uprooting a skyscraper on the rest of the team. His heat vision supposedly had the "power of a thousand suns" Against Thor he was beat down both times without any tricks. His super speed and heat vision didn't make a difference. It might not seem fair to compare Superman to obvious rip offs of him by Marvel but it is still comic lore and it is all we have to go on when comparing heroes from different companies.

HYPERION- the most obvious of all Superman ripoffs, He was strong enough to break Wondermans bones, and push him through an entire planet. He even had x-ray vision and was vulnerable to one specific element. He was the Superman of the Squadron Supreme, a total JLA ripoff or intentional jab from Marvel to make them lose to the Avengerrs. Thor beat him down with little problem.

If you really pull out the stops and say it is not just a slugfest but a true battle to the death, look at Thors "other" powers. He can truly do whatever needs to be done. In Champions terms he has a Cosmic variable power pool with a boatload of points! When he analysed the Force Field of the Juggernaut, he was able to simply remove it with his hammer so he could pummel him with his fists, when he was phased into concrete and his atoms merged with the ground leaving him crippled he decided to "unmerge himself" What would Superman do in this situation?? Nothing or wait for help from someone with magic ability.
Thor has also many times absorbed or drained powers at range. He sucked in all of Ultrons power and sent it up into the atmosphere to detonate like a nuke. He absorbed all of the radiation powers of the Presense an enormously powerful radiation based villain.

What would stop Thor from sucking all the yellow radiation right out of Superman?? A writer from D.C. would be about the only defense.

These are just examples without pulling out the"magic" card but if need be Thor can even add the power of his life force to blows, making them powerful enough to punch through Celestials armor.

If you are simply a Superman fan, I understand but I am a Spiderman fan and I still don't think he can take Superman.:)

[Marcus]

Well, from what I understand a JLA vs Avengers crossover is in the making... which perhaps will go a long way to giving us a 'canon' answer to this one.

I suppose the real answer is how smart either character is being that particular day and/or which one gets a clue quickest... both Thor and Superman frequently being walking, talking examples of 'Powers make you stupid'

[Morningstar]

I would be willing to bet that the only answer we get in that crossover is that they both hit hard, take a good blow and make a really unstoppable team when the inevitable confusion is cleared up.

[Bazza]

Originally posted by Marcus
Well, from what I understand a JLA vs Avengers crossover is in the making... which perhaps will go a long way to giving us a 'canon' answer to this one. I'd say it depends on the way the writer writes it. Do you really expect him to be more faithfull to the charcter's or the fanboys?

[Pattern Ghost]

Does anyone have confirmation of a Supes/Thor matchup in the upcoming crossover? They've avoided it so far. We might just end up with a Supes/Wasp match or something...

[Jeff T.]

JLA/AVENGERS INFO

Coming in Fall 2003

Kurt Busiek/George Perez

Note that right now is not called JLA VERSUS Avengers, just JLA/AVENGERS.

Some of the info I've read indicates an interdimensional menace that both teams will battle.

The 4 issue mini-series will involve, to some extent or another, EVERY member of both teams in their entire history.

It will also apparently have prominent Marvel/DC villains such as Magneto, Dr. Doom, Starro, etc.

Given space constraints in 4 issues (though double-sized issues) I doubt there will major characters facing off. At least, not facing off to the extent of deciding a clear victor. I'm guessing some minor tussles, before teaming up to beat the baddies.

Here...Wizard magazine has some extensive info on the crossover if you sift through the pages thoroughly.

http://vu.morrissey-solo.com/moz/perez/info/jla-avengers1.htm

[Blue]

Finally, some potential Scarlet Witch on Zatanna action.

[Blue]

Oh, get your mind out of the gutter. I was referring to a fight! ;)

Actually, I was just making a cheap post to edge toward 400.

[Nucleon]

And what if Superman had no such thing as a 9-12 SPD, but rather a good flight power and an Area Effect on a portion of his STR? That would explain how he knocks out many mundane foes so often while resorting to other, more powerful means on more powerful ones.

Did he ever ran as fast as the Flash on a long distance, or did he fly instead?

As for the fight itself, I favor the God over the Alien. We Immortals have to stick togheter, you know.

[Oruncrest]

Originally posted by Nucleon
And what if Superman had no such thing as a 9-12 SPD, but rather a good flight power and an Area Effect on a portion of his STR? That would explain how he knocks out many mundane foes so often while resorting to other, more powerful means on more powerful ones.

Superman's writers have recently remembered that Supes has superspeed and have been letting him use it on those 'more powerful foes' that you speak of. For instance: in Supes' first battle with Ignition, Supes punched, used Super-freeze Breath, punched, used Heat Vision, and punched Ignition all in the same panel. He was shown fighting Dumb- I mean Doomsday similarly. And neither Doomsday Igntion's are slowpokes.


Did he ever ran as fast as the Flash on a long distance, or did he fly instead?

Yes, Supes has run foot races with the flash, both Pre- and Post-CRISIS. In all the races, Supes and Flash ran neck & neck.


As for the fight itself, I favor the God over the Alien. We Immortals have to stick togheter, you know.

Supes was once in a 1,000-year war and doesn't look a day over 29. Who knows, he may even outlive Thor.

[KawangaKid]

Ah, yes.

CENTURIES of COMBAT for the Asgardian Warrior. Except the years when he was forced to endure them as a mortal doctor unaware of his true heritage..

How was his combat skill rated again? FASERIP or otherwise? Which Marvel fighters could outdo him in combat? Good or Bad?

[Rage]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
Too late. :p



If it's in oatmeal, we'll all be happy.

My aren't someones dirty fantasies surprisingly clean

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Nucleon
As for the fight itself, I favor the God over the Alien. We Immortals have to stick togheter, you know.

Just a reminder.

In the Marvel Universe

God = Alien (VERY POWERFUL alien, yes)

Thor is not immortal.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Oruncrest
Superman's writers have recently remembered that Supes has superspeed and have been letting him use it on those 'more powerful foes' that you speak of. For instance: in Supes' first battle with Ignition, Supes punched, used Super-freeze Breath, punched, used Heat Vision, and punched Ignition all in the same panel.
Mmmh. In HERO terms, wasn't that a multiple attack?


Yes, Supes has run foot races with the flash, both Pre- and Post-CRISIS. In all the races, Supes and Flash ran neck & neck.
Never saw that, but I shall give you credit. The idea of a foot-running Superman is just so weird, thought.


Supes was once in a 1,000-year war and doesn't look a day over 29. Who knows, he may even outlive Thor.
The DC universe had more relaunches than a PC in one year. Continuity is optional there, and I saw many, many silly things being written to be completely forgotten afterwards. I once read a comic where the Man Of Steel healed a sand-creature with a Super-Laugh, no less. Marvel has some inconsistancies too, but no one can argue that continuity is their forte.

Just look at Power Girl, one of the myriad Supermen plaguing the DCU for instance. This lovely heroine has 3 or 4 origins, each one less credible than the one before.

In the most credible stories (Crisis On Infinite Earths, Kingdom Come, etc) Superman does age, albeit more slowly. Thor is a genuine immortal (who cannot age, as oppose to cannot die), a god superior to his fellow Asgardians, whose origins are far more credible to explain his immense powers than Superman's, who was just a Kryptonian among equals.

(Being an ordinary alien can carry you a long way to power in the DCU. Just look at the Martian Manhunter or the Legion for that matter. As a rule of thumb, each alien can push its own planet, it seems.)

[Oruncrest]

Originally posted by KawangaKid
Ah, yes.

CENTURIES of COMBAT for the Asgardian Warrior. Except the years when he was forced to endure them as a mortal doctor unaware of his true heritage..

How was his combat skill rated again? FASERIP or otherwise? Which Marvel fighters could outdo him in combat? Good or Bad?

Thor's Fighting stat in MSH is Unearthly(100), which I've always translated into DC Heroes as 14 APs and HERO as +13 with HTH combat (I translated Thor's Agility to a 6 DEX in DCH and a 20 DEX in HERO, giving him up to a 20 CV in HTH, not counting the +2 levels with Mjolnir...). Silver Surfer, Gladiator, and Hercules all have Unearthly Fighting abilty, Valkyrie has Monstrous(75), Captain America has Amazing(50), Wolverine and the Thing have Incredible(40), Spidey and the Hulk have Remarkable(30). As a reference, the smaller the number, the worse a fighter you are. To outfight him, you need to go to characters like the Champion of the Universe.

For those who're wondering, Superman has a DEX of 15 APs (which I translate as 40 in HERO) and 11 APs of superspeed (+4 Overall Levels IMO) in the 3rd edition of DC Heroes. Overall, I'd still call it even.

[Morningstar]

Giving Thor only a 20 DEX would be criminal. There are numerous examples that I won't bother taking up 2,000 words to show his speed. Suffice it to say that whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't. Like Hela's death touch, Grey Gargoyles, medusa touch, or a cosmically sized giant like Suturs who's blows can even kill gods. He has been described as "fast as the lightning he lords over" That of course is an exageration, but 20 DEX is laughable.

As far as the benfits of being immortal besides not aging, they do not suffer the affect of any disease, the do not tire, heal at an extreme rate, require no food or drink, etc, etc. THOR once fought ZEUS for 10 STRAIGHT YEARS! no time-outs, no bathroom breaks, no naps, etc. Two massively powerful gods hitting each other with mountain shattering fists and energy blasts and still no bruises or signs of fatigue after a decade while a mortal war raged and ended. That is immortality not just Alien

[Pattern Ghost]

It's also important to realize that old MSH Agility does NOT translate over to DEX in Hero. (He's UN for Fighting, but only Ex in Agility in old MSH game, which is insane.)

Also, he's got weapon skills for edged that bumps him up to Shift X for Fighting, and Weapon Specialist with Mjolnir, bumping him to Shift Y for fighting with Mjolnir. That basically means he hits 94% of the time. He also successfully Evades 94% of the time, and if he rolls a yellow Evasion result (needs a roll of 41 or better on percentile roll), he gets another column shift up to ShZ for his next attack, which hits 97% of the time.

That's some dang spiffy Fighting.

As for his reflexes/DEX, he's been stated to have superhuman reflexes/reaction time/whatever on enough official Marvel material, and performed with such enough times to make his Excellent Agility rating a bit on the low side.

In Hero terms, I'd give him a DEX of at least 24, tons of skill levels, some MA, and a hefty dose of Lightning Reflexes. I'd probably set his SPD around 6.

[Nucleon]

I am sometime amazed at the high DEX scores people tend to give to some famous supers. I know DEX is a good investment, but that is no reason to give everybody Spidermanesque agility.

Guys like Thor and Superman are bruisers, not dodgers. A DEX of 17-18 should suffice for Thor, who will compensate with high CON, STUN, defenses and sizeable CSLs. Cap is more agile than the Thunder god, and I put him in the 21-23 range, all 20+ char. bought at double price, of course.

SPD too is often high. People seem to confuse high movement powers with SPD. Give Thor a SPD of 5, max.

Both SPD and DEX should be higher on the Last Son Of Krypton, maybe 24-25 DEX and 6 SPD.

[Morningstar]

Guys like Thor and Superman are bruisers, not dodgers. A DEX of 17-18 should suffice for Thor, who will compensate with high CON, STUN, defenses and sizeable CSLs. Cap is more agile than the Thunder god, and I put him in the 21-23 range, all 20+ char. bought at double price, of course.

SPD too is often high. People seem to confuse high movement powers with SPD. Give Thor a SPD of 5, max.
[I]

How many characters written up in all the Champions material have 17-18 DEX and 5 SPD? Only the very slow ones. Find a very powerful character that has stats like that. Its hard. Thor is not a 350 point character.
Read Thor comics and you will see tons of examples of a high DEX and SPD. FIghting entire teams , dodging and blasting, etc. Thousands of years of Dodging Giants, other gods etc. that actually can hurt him. In Secret Wars when he fights Dr. Doom, Ultron, the wrecking crew, Molecule Man, Titania, Volcana, and more I can't remember all at the same time, does he look like that is a low DEX and SPD? Actually look at the panels, this is just one small example.

If I had time I would scan and past a few dozen jpg images just to make this insane thread stop!

[Pattern Ghost]

What Morningstar said.

[Pattern Ghost]

Cap is more agile than the Thunder god...

Cap just flips around more.

Here's one: Who's more agile, the Beast or Cap?

[Nucleon]

How many characters written up in all the Champions material have 17-18 DEX and 5 SPD? Only the very slow ones. Find a very powerful character that has stats like that. Its hard. Thor is not a 350 point character.
I founded out with experience that characters put early into play with lower pts become much more effectives than charachters build on a high starting pts. One of the reasons for this are CSLs. Comes a time where hitting your ennemy is almost automatic. Instead of investing in the DEX race, you could buy an Area Effect or a BOECV, more defenses and CON, movement, offense and polyvalency. The reflexes are good too. Just because it will be effective is no reason to give the Hulk a DEX 29 and SPD 8, for exemple.


Read Thor comics and you will see tons of examples of a high DEX and SPD. FIghting entire teams , dodging and blasting, etc. Thousands of years of Dodging Giants, other gods etc. that actually can hurt him. In Secret Wars when he fights Dr. Doom, Ultron, the wrecking crew, Molecule Man, Titania, Volcana, and more I can't remember all at the same time, does he look like that is a low DEX and SPD? Actually look at the panels, this is just one small example.
Nucleon is a big, big fan of Thor and the Avengers. He have most Thors since Journey Into Mystery no. 83, and He can tell Thor's no dodger. The most Defensive he gets is with the deflecting trick. Fast for such a big guy, but no ninja. Of late in Avengers, he is the bruised and battered one, is garnment slashed to shreds and helmet gone, but still at the vanguard of the action.


If I had time I would scan and past a few dozen jpg images just to make this insane thread stop!
Please dont. This thread pleases Nucleon. :p

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
Here's one: Who's more agile, the Beast or Cap?

Beast.

[Jeff T.]

Sigh.

One more time for those hard of hearing.

First:
The term 'god' means little in the Marvel Universe. Superman is a superpowerful alien. Thor is half-Asgardian. Asgardians (just like other 'gods' in the Marvel Universe) are also...SUPERPOWERFUL ALIENS! Thor calls himself a 'god' because he allowed himself to be worshipped by Earthlings. In Marvel, 'god' is a title, and has no bearing on a fight. Obviously, to say Thor would win ANYTHING merely because he is a 'god' is nonsense.

Second:
Asgardians are NOT immortal. Asgardians do not regenerate when they die. Asgardians are EXTREMELY long-lived, and EXTREMELY resistant to disease, fire, cold, etc. Thats it.

P.S. It is the Olympians (another race of superpowered aliens) in the Marvel Universe who are true immortals.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Morningstar
How many characters written up in all the Champions material have 17-18 DEX and 5 SPD? Only the very slow ones. Find a very powerful character that has stats like that. Its hard. Thor is not a 350 point character.

Exactly.

Couple more points:

-Just because you're a bruiser doesn't mean you can't have a decent or high DEX.

-When I build these characters, I don't build them on effectiveness, I build them to simulate how they are most often portrayed in the comics. Also, I would use a practical baseline for their stats and powers, i.e. The Champions Universe. This is a universe without NCM (THANK GOD!). This is a universe where a stat of 31 is needed to be truly superhuman. I think it very closely resembles the Marvel Universe and mostly resembles the DC Universe.

-I think its fair to make comparisons to certain characters in these universes. I feel Captain America is the greatest HTH fighter and strategist in Marvel. I certainly don't create a Cap that would get his ass whooped by Foxbat. I make a Cap comparable to Mechassassin, just like I make my Thor comparable (probably tougher) than Firewing.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord
Asgardians are NOT immortal. Asgardians do not regenerate when they die. Asgardians are EXTREMELY long-lived, and EXTREMELY resistant to disease, fire, cold, etc. Thats it.

P.S. It is the Olympians (another race of superpowered aliens) in the Marvel Universe who are true immortals.

In Marvel Universe, Olympians and Asgardians are one and the same; a cosmic race of shifters (yes, alien, but that's not the point) that took on local folklore (see X-Earth). They are cosmic, mystic stuff (as opposed to mundanes)and their key figures are Immortal, even if their minions mays not, i.e. they do not die of age, or diseases. A bit like the Valar (or more precisely the Maiar) in Tolkien's lore.

Superman may come from a very advanced civilisation, but in no way a civilisation of immortals. An advanced, but mundane civilisation.

It is an important difference. "Gods" hold potentially more power than mundanes, so power looks less far-fetch on Thor than it is on Supes.

No Offenses meant, mortals. :D

[Oruncrest]

Originally posted by Morningstar
Giving Thor only a 20 DEX would be criminal. There are numerous examples that I won't bother taking up 2,000 words to show his speed. Suffice it to say that whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't. Like Hela's death touch, Grey Gargoyles, medusa touch, or a cosmically sized giant like Suturs who's blows can even kill gods. He has been described as "fast as the lightning he lords over" That of course is an exageration, but 20 DEX is laughable.

And to think that Nucleon almost convinced me that Marvel stories made more sense...:rolleyes:

Thor's DEX of 20 is as good as your average circus acrobat's and gives him a base CV of 7. With +13 levels HTH, Thor can have a DCV of 20 (22 if he uses his hammer) in HTH combat (You did read the whole paragraph, didn't you). Hela Amazing (50) Fighting and Amazing (50) Agility would translate out as DEX 34, +2 w/HTH, for a maximum CV of 13. The Grey Gargoyle has a DEX of 20 and NO levels with HTH. If Thor doesn't want to get hit by these two, then he won't. Period.

As for your asseertion that, 'whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't.' it might be better to say, 'Whenever he absolutely must not get hit, the writer won't let him get hit.' Thor gets clocked by opponents like the Hulk (DEX 15, +4 w/HTH) and the Juggernaut (Dex 8, +4 w/HTH) too often to justify a higher DEX.

[Oruncrest]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Originally posted by Oruncrest
Superman's writers have recently remembered that Supes has superspeed and have been letting him use it on those 'more powerful foes' that you speak of. For instance: in Supes' first battle with Ignition, Supes punched, used Super-freeze Breath, punched, used Heat Vision, and punched Ignition all in the same panel.

Mmmh. In HERO terms, wasn't that a multiple attack?

Nope. You're not supposed to use Melee & Ranged attacks together in a multiple power attack. Also, you can't use the same power to attack more than once per phase with an MPA (3 punches, remember)


Never saw that, but I shall give you credit. The idea of a foot-running Superman is just so weird, though.

The most recent official race was commented on in Action #600, I'll have to dig through my collection to find the specific book it was in though. Superman recently (year before last, I think) went for a cross-country jog with the Flash, and at the end of their run gave Wally a Christmas present (more digging, sigh).


The DC universe had more relaunches than a PC in one year. Continuity is optional there, and I saw many, many silly things being written to be completely forgotten afterwards. I once read a comic where the Man Of Steel healed a sand-creature with a Super-Laugh, no less.

I once read a comic where Cyclops used his optic blasts to fly. And I've never seen that again. If you scrape the bottom of the barrel long enough, you can find all sorts of drek to play with.


Just look at Power Girl, one of the myriad Supermen plaguing the DCU for instance. This lovely heroine has 3 or 4 origins, each one less credible than the one before.

Actually, she's one of the myriad Supergirls in the DCU. And the last I checked, she's only had 2; The Pre-CRISIS cousin of the Earth-2 Superman, and the Post-CRISIS granddaughter of Arion.


In the most credible stories (Crisis On Infinite Earths, Kingdom Come, etc) Superman does age, albeit more slowly. Thor is a genuine immortal (who cannot age, as oppose to cannot die), a god superior to his fellow Asgardians, whose origins are far more credible to explain his immense powers than Superman's, who was just a Kryptonian among equals.

"Thor: Divine Mutant or the ultimate in selective breeding."
Question: How many Asgardians (besides his parents) can give Thor a decent brawl?


(Being an ordinary alien can carry you a long way to power in the DCU. Just look at the Martian Manhunter or the Legion for that matter. As a rule of thumb, each alien can push its own planet, it seems.)

Pre-reboot, almost all the Legionaires were exceptional. Saturn Girl was the most gifted telepath. Shrinking Violet could shrink even further than most Imiski. Cosmic Boy could (and once did) whip his weight in Braalians. Ect. About the only members who were 'equal' to his or her fellow natives were Element Lad, Blok, Mon-El, Chamelion Boy, Phantom Girl, and Triplicate girl/Duo Damsel/Triad. The rest were either exceptional members of their populations or gained their powers by accident (who, incidentally were among the most powerful),

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Beast.

OK, here's another one:

Who's more agile, Thor or Wonder Man? And by how much?

[Morningstar]

As for your asseertion that, 'whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't.' it might be better to say, 'Whenever he absolutely must not get hit, the writer won't let him get hit.' Thor gets clocked by opponents like the Hulk (DEX 15, +4 w/HTH) and the Juggernaut (Dex 8, +4 w/HTH) too often to justify a higher DEX.[I]

Juggernaut 8 DEX? Says who? Who in the Champions Universe only has an 8 DEX?

What I am saying is look at the Champions Universe and the collection of Heroes & Villians. Look at the ones that are obvious take offs on existing marvel and DC characters, they do not have DEX scores taht low.

Warlord 20 DEX Ankylosaur 21 DEX So these 2 in there giant armored suits are as dextrous as a circus acrobat and THOR isnt?

The incredible pathetic Bulldozer 20 DEX Circus Acrobat?

Durak 23 Gargantua 20 Grond 18

What on earth would possess you to call THOR a 17-18?? Or Juggernaut an 8??

Now look at the non-melee types.
Gravitar(Graviton or Magneto) 25 DEX These are just normal not very athletic humans with powers.
Menton 24 Dex This guy doesn't even use his muscles.

Are you saying for some strange reason all the characters in Marvel are slower than the ones in Champions?

[Morningstar]

Nucleon is a big, big fan of Thor and the Avengers. He have most Thors since Journey Into Mystery no. 83, and He can tell Thor's no dodger. The most Defensive he gets is with the deflecting trick. Fast for such a big guy, but no ninja. Of late in Avengers, he is the bruised and battered one, is garnment slashed to shreds and helmet gone, but still at the vanguard of the action.
[I]

Thor was taking a pounding during the last group of stories when he was an Avenger because :
1 he was the only one on the team that could
2 The level of the threat was enormous.

You are talking about issues where:
1. The battled an army of Ultrons(seriously an army when one is ridiculously powerful)
2. An army of Hulks! (obvious enough)
3. Kangs futuristic army that enslaved the Earth and Nuked a major city wher emost of the Avengers were defeated and captured.

He has since left the Avengers after inheriting the Odinpower.

[Morningstar]

Sigh.
One more time for those hard of hearing.
First:
The term 'god' means little in the Marvel Universe. Superman is a superpowerful alien. Thor is half-Asgardian. Asgardians (just like other 'gods' in the Marvel Universe) are also...SUPERPOWERFUL ALIENS! Thor calls himself a 'god' because he allowed himself to be worshipped by Earthlings. In Marvel, 'god' is a title, and has no bearing on a fight. Obviously, to say Thor would win ANYTHING merely because he is a 'god' is nonsense.[I]

I originally used the term GOD vs. MAN to illustrate that the WIZARD Magazine author used the terms to say they are in different classees of ability in terms of power and skill, the running talk of symantics is pointless. Wizard has now authored the opinion of Thor defeating Superman 3 times now.

Thors "other half" happens to be the Earth Godess Gaea. The Elder Godess worshiped as Mother Earth and the god of life opposed by Cthon the God of Death. She is considered part of the reason Thor is head and shoulders above the other Asgardians in terms of toughness and strength.

Lastly I think I have gone to great lengths to give specific reasons and examples of why I believe Thor would win this battle every time. Simply because he is a god is not one of them. Like I said before, I am sure Superman could defeat Sif, Heimdal, etc. Thor is just to much. Please read the whole thread again before asking me to repeat why.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost Who's more agile, Thor or Wonder Man? And by how much?

Aargh, says He. Not an easy one. Nucleon didn't look at Marvel's numbers for these, but He will none the less declare Thor more agile, by a meagre 2-3 pts.

(In pure DEX He means, not including CSLs)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Oruncrest
I once read a comic where Cyclops used his optic blasts to fly. And I've never seen that again. If you scrape the bottom of the barrel long enough, you can find all sorts of drek to play with.
Indeed. In one Avenger number, Magneto actually controlled minds.


Actually, she's one of the myriad Supergirls in the DCU. And the last I checked, she's only had 2; The Pre-CRISIS cousin of the Earth-2 Superman, and the Post-CRISIS granddaughter of Arion.
Nucleon learned the tortuous origin of this heroine at Power Girl Online (Powergirl.Metrocity.com/content.htm). Much confusion over such a nice character. Great pics too.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Morningstar
Sigh.
One more time for those hard of hearing.
First:
The term 'god' means little in the Marvel Universe. Superman is a superpowerful alien. Thor is half-Asgardian. Asgardians (just like other 'gods' in the Marvel Universe) are also...SUPERPOWERFUL ALIENS! Thor calls himself a 'god' because he allowed himself to be worshipped by Earthlings. In Marvel, 'god' is a title, and has no bearing on a fight. Obviously, to say Thor would win ANYTHING merely because he is a 'god' is nonsense.[I]

I originally used the term GOD vs. MAN to illustrate that the WIZARD Magazine author used the terms to say they are in different classees of ability in terms of power and skill, the running talk of symantics is pointless. Wizard has now authored the opinion of Thor defeating Superman 3 times now.

Thors "other half" happens to be the Earth Godess Gaea. The Elder Godess worshiped as Mother Earth and the god of life opposed by Cthon the God of Death. She is considered part of the reason Thor is head and shoulders above the other Asgardians in terms of toughness and strength.

Lastly I think I have gone to great lengths to give specific reasons and examples of why I believe Thor would win this battle every time. Simply because he is a god is not one of them. Like I said before, I am sure Superman could defeat Sif, Heimdal, etc. Thor is just to much. Please read the whole thread again before asking me to repeat why.

I've read the thread. I'm the one who authored the original thread this one referenced. Thor is in my top 5 favorite superheroes. I totally agree Thor wins, although what Wizard says doesn't matter to me. I agree with most of reasons given here as to why Thor would win.

I was merely nitpicking the oftmentioned point about "Thor is 'god' so he wins". Its been used before. A character's particular origin means absolutely nothing in comics. Period.

If I was to compare Batman against Thor. I wouldn't say Batman loses because he's a 'normal' human and Thor is a 'god'. First off, EVERYONE is 'superhero/supervillain' in some form or other. There are no 'normal humans' in comics (which is why use of NCM in the superhero genre is plain nonsensical in my opinion).

I would argue based solely on their abilities displayed in comics.

In brief, Thor wins because both he and Supes have comparable power-levels, however, many of Thor's abilities are very suited to exploit Superman's weaknesses.

[Nuadha]

Originally posted by Starlord


If I was to compare Batman against Thor. I wouldn't say Batman loses because he's a 'normal' human and Thor is a 'god'. First off, EVERYONE is 'superhero/supervillain' in some form or other. There are no 'normal humans' in comics (which is why use of NCM in the superhero genre is plain nonsensical in my opinion).


We all know that Batman would win that fight too, right? Batman always wins! :)

[Oruncrest]

Morningstar says
Oruncrest said
As for your asseertion that, 'whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't.' it might be better to say, 'Whenever he absolutely must not get hit, the writer won't let him get hit.' Thor gets clocked by opponents like the Hulk (DEX 15, +4 w/HTH) and the Juggernaut (Dex 8, +4 w/HTH) too often to justify a higher DEX.

Juggernaut 8 DEX? Says who? Who in the Champions Universe only has an 8 DEX?
Joe & Jane normal, who Juggernaut is supposed to be slower than. In MSH, most normals have Typical(6) agility, which I always translate as 10 DEX. Jugg-head has Poor(4) agiility, which converts to an 8 DEX. Understand now?


What I am saying is look at the Champions Universe and the collection of Heroes & Villians. Look at the ones that are obvious take offs on existing marvel and DC characters, they do not have DEX scores that low.

Warlord 20 DEX Ankylosaur 21 DEX So these 2 in there giant armored suits are as dextrous as a circus acrobat and THOR isnt?
Lets look at some of those armored dues in MSH:

Iron Man: Remarkable(30) Agility, DEX 25
Vindicator: Incredible (40) Agility, DEX 30
Annihilus: Incredible (40) Agility, DEX 30
Beetle: Good (10) Agility, DEX 15
Crimson Dynamo: Incredible (40) Agility, DEX 30
Dr. Doom: Excellent (20) Agility, DEX 20
Mandroid: Good (10) Agility, DEX 15
Titanium Man: Remarkable(30) Agility, DEX 25

I haven't seen Warlord and I don't know who Ankylosaur was supposed to take from, so you'll have to tell me how they compare to their 'Parent Figures'.


The incredible pathetic Bulldozer 20 DEX Circus Acrobat?

Durak 23 Gargantua 20 Grond 18

What on earth would possess you to call THOR a 17-18?? Or Juggernaut an 8??
The easy answer is that I'm playing with the numbers from the MSH Game. Why did MSH give those numbers for these characters? That's because of one simple word:

CONCEPT!!!

Thor's concept is that of a brawler, he likes a good punch-up and is very good at it, as evidenced by his +13 Levels with HTH. However, he's also well known for throwing his hammer and clobbering someone from a distance, as well as deflecting long-range attacks. As a result, the writers of the MSH felt justifed to give him Excellent Agility. For the most part, I agree with their assessment, even though I think a 20 DEX (for his Ex. Agility) gives him too high a base DCV in melee. While I could use a whole bunch of game mechanics to correct this percieved flaw, the desire to KISS points out that an extra point or two of DCV is worth the (minor) irritation.

Juggernaut's concept is that he's unstoppable. Guns, missiles, fists, energy blasts, nothing can stop him once he gets started. However, he's slow and plodding, and it should take him a long time to get where he wants to go, which allows the defenders to throw their tanks and missiles and whatnot at him so he can ignore it all. After all, he's undtoppable. I think that having a lower Agility/DEX than most normals fits his concept, thus he has an 8 DEX.

Now let's look at some of the characters you mentioned:

Durak doesn't really have a concept, other than he's big and strong and good at fighting. I don't have any problem with 'fast bricks' per se, since the cliché 'How can something so big move so fast?' is common in comics.

I don't know Gargantua fom a hole in the ground. Sorry.

Grond is more dexterous than the Hulk by 3 points. The Hulk has a DEX of 15. I don't see a big departure from the base character here.

Bulldozer is OOC (Out of Concept) in my opinion. Here we have a slow-witted fellow who believes he's unstoppable. Why in Heaven's name does he have 3-4 CV over the security guards who're trying to stop him from knocking over a jewlery store? Saying that all your PCs have 20+ DEX doesn't cut it. Bulldozer should be laughing at their bullets, not ducking and dodging them.


Now look at the non-melee types.
Gravitar(Graviton or Magneto) 25 DEX These are just normal not very athletic humans with powers.
Magneto has Rm(30) agility/ 25 DEX. You are right though, they're both OOC. Maybe they're Advanced Generation Mutants. Graviton has Typical(6) agility/ 10 DEX. He's a threat to the Avengers because he can fly while many of his opponents are groundbound and his (60,60) Force Field, 0 END can keep those who can fly from hurting him. Much.


Menton 24 Dex This guy doesn't even use his muscles.
And with his 40 STR, that's a shame.:D
Why DOES he have a STR of 40 if he doen't use his muscles, anyway?


Are you saying for some strange reason all the characters in Marvel are slower than the ones in Champions?
Many of them are. Many of them fit the concept of 'Joe or Jane normal with a superpower' and make do with a 15 DEX. Many heroes in DC Heroes make do with a 11-18 DEX (not the titleholders, of course. They start at 23) in HERO. And may of them are expert fighters (Batman, Captain America, Nightwing), superhumanly fast (Silver Surfer, Superman, Wonder Woman), technologically aumented (Iron Man) or just That Damn Good (Green Lantern, Hawkeye, Vindicator) and can meet or exceed even the high-end Champions characters.

[Catacomb]

Originally posted by Starlord


In brief, Thor wins because both he and Supes have comparable power-levels, however, many of Thor's abilities are very suited to exploit Superman's weaknesses.

Yeah...like magic.

[Mayday]

Once a very long time ago in early Thor comics, they showed that Ragnarok happened but to the 'real' gods who died exactly as the mythology says they did. That Thor was red haired and bearded and wore dyed norse style animal skins while our Thor is blonde wearing high quality gear. That was how his Asgard escaped Ragnarok destruction, because they were not 'the Gods'.

I dont know what they are instead but I think that was debated 3 pages ago.

[Morningstar]

Onruncrest,

Thanks for actually using data in your opinion, it really does make it so much more credible and easier to discuss IMO.

Here is where I disagree with you:

Champions definition of Dexterity is a charcters:
1.agility
2. reaction time
3. accuracy
You can be amazing at throwing objects, or have great eye hand coordination and still not be great at dodging and moving. Champions defines these traits all as the same characteristic. Characters with normal human characteristics with superpowered energy blasts are not obliged to keep 10-15 dexterity scores and buy levels. The ones in the Champions material certainly do not.

First off I think MSH was a HORRIBLE game! The stats were done terribly and do not reflect the comic characters ability as shown in there true body of work, the years and years of comics themselves. MSH is a pale, simplistic shade of a game compared to Champions. Marvel has always done a poor job with editing the work of whoever stats for them. For a current example look at there web site and see some of the insane discrepancies. Here is one:
Captain America Strength 2.5 Agility 2.5 Reflexes 2.5 Fighting Skills 5.5

Wolverine Strength 3 (when did he become superhumanly strong? Cap is as strong as a normal human can be)
Agility 3 Reflexes 3 Fighting Skills 6.5!
When did Wolvering become superhumanly strong, fast, agile and a better fighter than Cap?

They are eliminating these stat bars as they update the characters but there were worse ones to. Look at poor daredevil. Strength 1 Durabilty 1 However his Agility is 3.5, higher than Cap's.

Lastly the conversion of MSH stats to Champions is strictly your interpretation. You could have just as easily rasied the Champions converted rate by 5 points.

Your last paragraph confused me as to how you were justifying a higher dex for certain characters, Green Lantern, Vindicator? Who is a "titleholder" and if it is just an iconic powerful character, well Thor is marvels Power Icon. I also think if you really read a lot of Thor and Avenger books you will see numerous examples of his speed that no human could possibly match.

[Catacomb]

Originally posted by Morningstar
Onruncrest,

Thanks for actually using data in your opinion, it really does make it so much more credible and easier to discuss IMO.

Here is where I disagree with you:

Champions definition of Dexterity is a charcters:
1.agility
2. reaction time
3. accuracy
You can be amazing at throwing objects, or have great eye hand coordination and still not be great at dodging and moving. Champions defines these traits all as the same characteristic. Characters with normal human characteristics with superpowered energy blasts are not obliged to keep 10-15 dexterity scores and buy levels. The ones in the Champions material certainly do not.

First off I think MSH was a HORRIBLE game! The stats were done terribly and do not reflect the comic characters ability as shown in there true body of work, the years and years of comics themselves. MSH is a pale, simplistic shade of a game compared to Champions. Marvel has always done a poor job with editing the work of whoever stats for them. For a current example look at there web site and see some of the insane discrepancies. Here is one:
Captain America Strength 2.5 Agility 2.5 Reflexes 2.5 Fighting Skills 5.5

Wolverine Strength 3 (when did he become superhumanly strong? Cap is as strong as a normal human can be)
Agility 3 Reflexes 3 Fighting Skills 6.5!
When did Wolvering become superhumanly strong, fast, agile and a better fighter than Cap?

They are eliminating these stat bars as they update the characters but there were worse ones to. Look at poor daredevil. Strength 1 Durabilty 1 However his Agility is 3.5, higher than Cap's.

Lastly the conversion of MSH stats to Champions is strictly your interpretation. You could have just as easily rasied the Champions converted rate by 5 points.

Your last paragraph confused me as to how you were justifying a higher dex for certain characters, Green Lantern, Vindicator? Who is a "titleholder" and if it is just an iconic powerful character, well Thor is marvels Power Icon. I also think if you really read a lot of Thor and Avenger books you will see numerous examples of his speed that no human could possibly match.

Wolverine's speed and agility are waaaayyyy above a normal humans as evidenced by his fights with Spider-Man, and the fact that it is talked about in the X-Men comic when Gambit, Jubilee, and Wolvie are playing basketball in one of the early Jim Lee issues. Also Wolvie just might be a better fighter than Cap...more training(Or training while Cap was frozen), and trained by some of the best martial arts masters in the world, he's just nowhere near the same strategist. BTW Wolverine has done things in the past that suggest he might be above the normal human levels of strength as well...not alot, but at least a little. Also Thor is not Marvels power Icon, that title falls to Strange(1600 Frickin pts.) or Silver Surfer(2k easy last time I tried to make him).

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Aargh, says He. Not an easy one. Nucleon didn't look at Marvel's numbers for these, but He will none the less declare Thor more agile, by a meagre 2-3 pts.

(In pure DEX He means, not including CSLs)

OK, then Thor's more agile than Beast.

Since Beast is more agile than Cap...

Thor's more agile than Cap!

See, I just proved that Kevin Bacon knows Thor and Superman. Cool, huh?

[Pattern Ghost]

The easy answer is that I'm playing with the numbers from the MSH Game. Why did MSH give those numbers for these characters? That's because of one simple word:

Here's the main problem with translating Champions DEX from MSH Agility:

THEY AREN'T THE SAME THING!

Until you realize that, you can't really use the MSH stats for characters as a basis for argument.

Champions DEX encompasses both Marvel Fighting AND Agility, and doesn't do so precisely since there are many ways to get the same effect in Champs (Skill levels, lightning reflexes, etc.)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
OK, then Thor's more agile than Beast.
Does ill compute.

Beast over Cap, then Thor, then WonderMan.

But then again, I didn't check at Marvel's...

And Kevin Bacon knows everything.

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Does ill compute.

Beast over Cap, then Thor, then WonderMan.

But then again, I didn't check at Marvel's...

And Kevin Bacon knows everything.

Kevin Bacon is the key...

[Oruncrest]

Originally posted by Morningstar
Onruncrest,

Thanks for actually using data in your opinion, it really does make it so much more credible and easier to discuss IMO.

Here is where I disagree with you:

Champions definition of Dexterity is a charcters:
1.agility
2. reaction time
3. accuracy
You can be amazing at throwing objects, or have great eye hand coordination and still not be great at dodging and moving. Champions defines these traits all as the same characteristic.
And some might call that a flaw of the system, since the higher the number, the better you are with everything that falls under that stat (in this case, DEX). That's why there're Levels, so that if you absolutely suck at one stat aspect (say, DCV), the other aspects don't have to suffer as well.


Characters with normal human characteristics with superpowered energy blasts are not obliged to keep 10-15 dexterity scores and buy levels. The ones in the Champions material certainly do not.
No they don't. If their concept allows them to be able to run out in the middle of a warzone, blasting left, right, and center, hitting everything he aims at while casually evading all the return fire, then by all means, give this character a high DEX. Here's a couple of examples of having a high DEX:

My Captain America is 30 DEX. The average HYDRA agent has an OCV of 5, giving him a 9% chance of hitting Cap, while Cap has a 98% chance of hitting the agent (not counting his +4 Levels with HTH and +4 with his shield). This fits with scenes where Cap is leaping into a horde of HYDRA agents, punching and kicking anyone who has the misfortune to be in his range.

Bulldozer is DEX 20, that means that he has a DCV of 7. The average security guard has a DEX of 10 (OCV 3), and maybe +1 with his revolver. Bulldozer walks into a bank to hold it up (You're robbing it you moron. Stop trying to pick up the building). The two security guards pull out their guns and shoot at Bulldozer. The guards need to roll an 8 or less to hit. This means they only have a 26% chance to hit, or only 1 bullet out of every four fired by them will hit Bulldozer. Now, if you see Bulldozer casually evading gunfire as he robs the bank, then he has the right amount of DEX. If you see him wading thru a hail of gunfire, commenting about noisy mosquitos, then there is a problem with his DEX.


First off I think MSH was a HORRIBLE game! The stats were done terribly and do not reflect the comic characters ability as shown in there true body of work, the years and years of comics themselves. MSH is a pale, simplistic shade of a game compared to Champions. Marvel has always done a poor job with editing the work of whoever stats for them. For a current example look at there web site and see some of the insane discrepancies. Here is one:
Those stats are from the Marvel Superheroes Adventure Game (SAGA). I'm using the older Marvel Super Heroes game (MSH). They're two completely different systems. I can't stress that enough. I don't know beans about SAGA, and from the stats you found, I can see I didn't miss anything.


Your last paragraph confused me as to how you were justifying a higher dex for certain characters, Green Lantern, Vindicator? Who is a "titleholder" and if it is just an iconic powerful character, well Thor is marvels Power Icon. I also think if you really read a lot of Thor and Avenger books you will see numerous examples of his speed that no human could possibly match.
The Titleholder remark was made when I was looking through the 3rd DC Heroes RPG. While I was fliping thru the 'heroes' section, I noticed that, with the exception of Starfire, all the heroes who had a Dex of 7 or better (corresponding with a DEX of 23 in Champions) had starred or were starring in a book dedicated to that character. Thus they were 'titleholders'. For instance, Guy Gardner, who starred in his own book around the time of DCH 3, had a Dex of 7 (23 in HERO). Lobo had a Dex of 10 (30 in HERO). I'm sorry if you inferred any allusions to greatness from that reference. M'i bad.

[Pattern Ghost]

Marvel's own stat bars, while their accuracy is arguable, do give Thor a superhuman reflexes and agility rating:

http://www.marvel.com/bios/bios.htm?id=3&family=MARVEL+HEROES

Thor has a 4 in each stat. Cap is at 2.5. Human max used to be around 2 on these charts around the early 90's. (They used a similar scale on the Marvel Universe trading cards, which had text descriptions of each number rating. The general scheme was similar.) Incidentally, this ties his ratings in both with the Beast's ratings, and Spider-Man's in the same categories.

Thos has superhuman agility and reflexes, it's just not as apparent because he's way the heck up the superhuman scale in strength and durability. Bottom line, he's a cosmic-level hero just as much as someone like the Silver Surfer, and all of those guys tend to have at least low levels of superhuman attributes across the board, at least when the writers want to showcase them.

Of course, you could just ask Kevin Bacon.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Catacomb
Also Thor is not Marvels power Icon, that title falls to Strange(1600 Frickin pts.) or Silver Surfer(2k easy last time I tried to make him).

I wouldn't argue with you over Strange, but Thor has defeated SS one-on-one.


Another point: I have trouble doing literal translations of the original MSH game. It was amusing for a brief period, but this was essentially a broken system with wild inconsistencies in stats in my opinion.

Also, the stats given on the Marvel website are awful. They are about as far off as the top Strength levels in the Handbooks of the Marvel Universe.

If I had to use a system, I'd use the Marvel SAGA system, but those are hard to translate as well.

[Pattern Ghost]

Ever notice that nobody seems to have a 5 in agility or reflexes on the Marvel site? Is the number 5 magical or something? I'd say if Thor has a 4 (prob. should be about a 3, though), Spidey should have a 5 or 6.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Oruncrest
My Captain America is 30 DEX (...)(not counting his +4 Levels with HTH and +4 with his shield). This fits with scenes where Cap is leaping into a horde of HYDRA agents, punching and kicking anyone who has the misfortune to be in his range.

With all due respect sir Oruncrest, that high a DEX somewhat takes out the charm of Cap in my humble immortal opinion, who is at peak normal human level. I would put him at DEX 20 at its lowest, 23 at is highest, paid a double fare over 20. With the 30 pts the extra DEX costed, I would buy back the SPD (Ideally at 4) for 10 pts, take 5 extra CSL with (Generic) M-arts, and 2 SL with 3-related, DEX skills. In combat, I would cancel to dodge/block until my next phase, where I would put everything into offensive, preferably at the end of the phase, so I could cancel again fast if need be.

He does that a lot in Avengers. Skilled, experienced and dedicated instead of surhuman.

The problem is, Champion characters don't have to sell like in the comic biz. They have to be more complete combat masters to effectively survive, because the trials come from dices rather than by scenarist. So yes, they're more effective, sometime without hurting the concept, sometimes not. That Cap you made is probably more suited to a Champion game than the "real" one.

[Morningstar]

Also Thor is not Marvels power Icon, that title falls to Strange(1600 Frickin pts.) or Silver Surfer(2k easy last time I tried to make him).


I certainly wouldn't have Dr. Strange being more points than Thor. Strange can be done almost entirely with a Variable magic pool. Thor has to have an enormous cosmic power pool and ridicuouls physical stats as well, same with Silver Surfer.

My Captain America is 30 DEX (...)(not counting his +4 Levels with HTH and +4 with his shield). This fits with scenes where Cap is leaping into a horde of HYDRA agents, punching and kicking anyone who has the misfortune to be in his range.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think 30 is right on for most of Caps stats. I think the creation of Telios as the perfect man set that up for him. He is the strongest, fastest, and most durable a human can be. Not just before he starts paying double points. I understand you feel most of champions characters have too high of a dex score but that is the way the writers of the game have set the bar for us. I wouldnt make Cap less dextrous than most of the normal martial artists they have created. That would defy the fact that he is human perfection.[B]

[Oruncrest]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
How does Dex 7 in DCH translate to Dex 23?

I used to simply add 1 to the DCH Dex to get the base CV and multiply by 3 (i.e. (Dex 7+1 = 8 CV ×3 = 24 DEX), then I found some conversion notes by Aaron Sulivan that fit more with my way of thinking.

For a Dex of 10 or less, multiply Dex by 2.5 and add 5 (i.e. Dex 7×2.5 = 18 + 5 = 23 DEX).

For a Dex over 10, subtract 10 from the Dex, multiply the reamainder by 2, and add 30 (for instance, Superman has a Dex of 15 in DCH, 15 - 10 = 5 × 2 = 10 +30 = 40 DEX.)

[Oruncrest]

Nebulon said
With all due respect sir Oruncrest, that high a DEX somewhat takes out the charm of Cap in my humble immortal opinion, who is at peak normal human level. I would put him at DEX 20 at its lowest, 23 at is highest, paid a double fare over 20.
I guess it depends on where one places their concept of 'peak human level' in a Champions game. My peak for DEX is 30, yours is obviously lower.


Nebulon said
With the 30 pts the extra DEX costed, I would buy back the SPD (Ideally at 4) for 10 pts, take 5 extra CSL with (Generic) M-arts, and 2 SL with 3-related, DEX skills. In combat, I would cancel to dodge/block until my next phase, where I would put everything into offensive, preferably at the end of the phase, so I could cancel again fast if need be.
So, lemme see if I've got this straight; you wanna limit his speed to 4, then switch between block/dodge on one phase and attack on the next, effectively cutting his SPD in half to try and simulate what could have been done easier by spending an extra 30 points on his DEX.

Did I get that right?


Nebulon said
He does that a lot in Avengers. Skilled, experienced and dedicated instead of surhuman.

The problem is, Champion characters don't have to sell like in the comic biz. They have to be more complete combat masters to effectively survive, because the trials come from dices rather than by scenarist. So yes, they're more effective, sometime without hurting the concept, sometimes not. That Cap you made is probably more suited to a Champion game than the "real" one.
You're right. Champions characters don't have the omnipotent writer to ensure that the 'stormtrooper effect' (where 'several battalions of 'Bad Guys' firing on a 'Good Guy' standing alone in the middle of an open field will always miss') is running during their fights. They can't count on the writer to make their opponents stand around like complete boobs so they can clobber them with ease. All they have are the dice, which can be uncaring at best and malicious at worst. If the PCs can't count on the dice's help, they should be able to at least take steps to minimze the damage done. Whether this is done by high Defs ("You can't hurt me with those popguns, copper"), High DEXs ("Damn you! Stand Still! "Fighting you is like standing still!"), skill Levels ("My defense is impenetrable, my offense, impetuous."), or any moderate combination of the above should be dependent upon the character conception.


Morningstar said
I think 30 is right on for most of Caps stats. I think the creation of Telios as the perfect man set that up for him. He is the strongest, fastest, and most durable a human can be. Not just before he starts paying double points. I understand you feel most of champions characters have too high of a dex score but that is the way the writers of the game have set the bar for us. I wouldnt make Cap less dextrous than most of the normal martial artists they have created. That would defy the fact that he is human perfection.
I think that you misunderstand me: I think that some characters have DEXs that are too high for their concepts. Certain concepts (martial artists, speedsters, ect.) benefit from a character with a high DEX (23+). Certain concepts (energy projectors, 'fast' bricks, ect.) find their sweet spot with a median DEX (14-23) and some Levels. And some concepts ('slow' bricks, some mentalists) should rely mostly on levels and/or high defenses. Of course, where I place high, median, and low DEXs is probably different from where you might place them.

[Oruncrest]

Question: Is there a way we can get rid of Gillbill's spam without having to kill the thread?

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Oruncrest
Question: Is there a way we can get rid of Gillbill's spam without having to kill the thread?

I know some board software has the ability to wipe out an ID and all of its associated posts without killing the threads themselves. I certainly hope this one does.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Oruncrest
I guess it depends on where one places their concept of 'peak human level' in a Champions game. My peak for DEX is 30, yours is obviously lower.

So, lemme see if I've got this straight; you wanna limit his (Cap's) speed to 4, then switch between block/dodge on one phase and attack on the next, effectively cutting his SPD in half to try and simulate what could have been done easier by spending an extra 30 points on his DEX.

Did I get that right?


My normal Human Maximas are what HERO sets them to be, ie 20, and a SPEED of 4. After that, I pay double fare if the character I'm designing have "Human Maximas". It can go up to 30, or higher, that costly way. It's concept over good deal. A somewhat "romantic" challenge in HERO.

And yes, you did got that right on the whole. In his own comics, Cap often beats the slower, more numerous opposition by taking the initiative but in Avengers, he play more defensively, being a team player. In such a game, a "low DEX" of 20 can be an advantage, because of its place in the initiative call, more towards the end of the segment (so he can cancel fast after an attack). But Cap can still act before anybody if he does a good presence attack, a domain where he's not too shabby neither.

That's why the inflated CSLs; to put more focus either in offensive (he can use them as more DCs vs slower, tougher foes), or in defensive. That's what CSLs (and the shield) is for. More effective than what a 30 DEX would brought at that, finally. Try it; It works.

:cool:

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Nucleon
My normal Human Maximas are what HERO sets them to be, ie 20, and a SPEED of 4. After that, I pay double fare if the character I'm designing have "Human Maximas". It can go up to 30, or higher, that costly way. It's concept over good deal. A somewhat "romantic" challenge in HERO.

And yes, you did got that right on the whole. In his own comics, Cap often beats the slower, more numerous opposition by taking the initiative but in Avengers, he play more defensively, being a team player. In such a game, a "low DEX" of 20 can be an advantage, because of its place in the initiative call, more towards the end of the segment (so he can cancel fast after an attack). But Cap can still act before anybody if he does a good presence attack, a domain where he's not too shabby neither.

That's why the inflated CSLs; to put more focus either in offensive (he can use them as more DCs vs slower, tougher foes), or in defensive. That's what CSLs (and the shield) is for. More effective than what a 30 DEX would brought at that, finally. Try it; It works.

:cool:

It may work, but 'technically' it isn't in 'concept' in my opinion.

Those NCM's are meant explicitly for Heroic campaigns for a reason. If you pay attention to the comics, there are no 'normal humans'. It's just an 'origin concept'. That's all. All those characters, at the root levels, are superheroes and supervillians. 'Normal' applies to none of them. Daredevil and Cap (and others) routinely fight powerful superhumans and do unbelievable Matrix-like (the 'old' bouncing off the flagpole argument)maneuvers. Steve 'got that' when he wrote 5th Edition. Their 'exceptional training' puts them closer to superhuman level.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord
Those NCM's are meant explicitly for Heroic campaigns for a reason. If you pay attention to the comics, there are no 'normal humans'. It's just an 'origin concept'. That's all. All those characters, at the root levels, are superheroes and supervillians. 'Normal' applies to none of them. Daredevil and Cap (and others) routinely fight powerful superhumans and do unbelievable Matrix-like (the 'old' bouncing off the flagpole argument)maneuvers. Steve 'got that' when he wrote 5th Edition. Their 'exceptional training' puts them closer to superhuman level.

Maybe in yours, not in mine.

For such guys as Cap, I use the rules on page 213; "Characters in campaigns which do not impose NCM as a default can take NCM as a disavantage for 20 Character Points."

How many times did Cap said something akin to "that's just a man you're facing, (insert vilain's name)", generaly before he gets his light punched out.

If Cap have no NCM, pray tell who does?

When I design a Martial Artist, such as Cap, I ask myself "Is this guy really is super-humanly agile, or does he have exeptional training", like you said, (or both). If the later rings truer, I go the CSLs way, making him a tougher opponent than the super-agile but inexperienced one on an equal basis, by the way.

[Klytus]

Personally, I very much like the idea put forward that while 20 may be the "normal" characteristic maximum, any Stat can go up to 30 without some kind of super-power justification.

So, you have 20 reflecting the stats of "normal' folks at the peak of their abilities (like marathon runners) you still have room for people to go above and beyond (like Olympic weight lifters) the 20 limit, it just gets tougher.

Super-heroes are just that. Even the so-called "normal" people with exceptional training (like Batman, Nightwing, Daredevil, Captain America, etc) can easily go over 20, but not 30, as it is within the frameworks of the "normal" human range, but that 20-30 slot gives them the ability to stand out from the "normal" crowd. Remember, every year, new records are broken and new standards are set for the pinnacle of human athletic achievement. The 4-minute mile was once impossible - now its simply a benchmark. The bar is constantly being raised, so having 20 be the static human max does not work. The 20-30 range, however, leaves the wiggle room one needs to reflect this.

And while skill levels, lightning reflexes, et al can help bridge this gap, in some cases it just doesn't feel right. I simply cannot accept the notion that Batman and Captain America have DEX scores of 20 because they are not "super" humans.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Klytus
Personally, I very much like the idea put forward that while 20 may be the "normal" characteristic maximum, any Stat can go up to 30 without some kind of super-power justification.
So, is there a NCM Disavantage in your campaign, and if there is, what does it worth? I think that playing a HERO campaing with "Normal" to "Hero" character types helps putting things back in perspective.

(Grumble) I know that I must be starting to sound like some argumentative orthodox here, but Cap does not need a surhuman DEX. He could even do better without. In effect, he is surhuman, super-trained, that is.

Here is a challenge. I can make, on equal pts, a Cap with NCM that will mop the floor with most 27-38 DEX "Caps" characters in martial combat 2 times out of 3, or bow down to my opponent's effectiveness for all to see.

Huh?

[Morningstar]

I don't think making Cap with the least amount of points is the goal here. I am sure you can make Cap more efficient with levels and less Dex but there is no need. Cap doesn't need to be 350 points. I think what others were trying to say is that his character concept is "the best a human can be" I think that definition sowewhat means without supernatural means or genetic changes. He is human on every scan and detect and sensor. If you limit him to 20 dex, than it is impossible for any character to surpass 20 in a physical skill without being altered, and no longer a "non super" human.

I think 30 is appropriate for a couple of reasons. Mainly the dexterity level at which Champions gives to other apparent non super humans who are highly trained. If Scorpia is Dex 24, and Warpath is a 25, among many others, it stands to reason the ultimate human could be 30 Dex. These 2 are non superhumans with exceptional training, not superhumans, mutants, etc. Is Warpath supposed to be that much more dextrous than HAWKEYE? Hawkeye is certainly less Dextrous than Cap.

Telios "the perfect man" was given 30 stats across the board except for INT. I think this is very good benchmark for Cap. Anything past this should have a superhuman explaiation and concept.

WOW! This thread has morphed beyond recognition.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
So, is there a NCM Disavantage in your campaign, and if there is, what does it worth? I think that playing a HERO campaing with "Normal" to "Hero" character types helps putting things back in perspective.

(Grumble) I know that I must be starting to sound like some argumentative orthodox here, but Cap does not need a surhuman DEX. He could even do better without. In effect, he is surhuman, super-trained, that is.

Here is a challenge. I can make, on equal pts, a Cap with NCM that will mop the floor with most 27-38 DEX "Caps" characters in martial combat 2 times out of 3, or bow down to my opponent's effectiveness for all to see.

Huh?

That's a real tough challenge for you. You can sort of compensate for dex with skill levels. Against 1 single opponent, skill levels may be even slightly more effective since you can purchase the 2-3 pt versions. However, purchasing 5 pt versions like Cap should have is horribly inefficient compared to buying Dex. The real killer is when your 4 spd Cap takes on a 6-8 spd Cap.

The parameters of that challenge must be set as well. Are there any CV or DC caps, or is the sky the limit? How would you handle the shield with the 2 versions, or are they assumed to have the same shield?

[Pattern Ghost]

Why does it seem like every time this comes up, someone thinks that NCM is a hard limit? It's NOT. It's a SPENDING limitation.

Let's say you like low-DEX games. Let's say you set up a standard campaign, but require every character to take NCM.

Fine. Do you think your bricks are going to stop at 20 STR? Doubtful. They'll just have less pts to spend elsewhere.

Given NCM across the board, you'll have made normals a bigger threat in a way, but you won't change Cap's concept.

Here's his concept: If a "normal" human can go to X physical stat, Cap can go that much more. So what if he pays double? He's CAP. He's beyond that threshold of "normal" men, and into the Adonis league of human perfection.

Even in an all NCM environment, Cap would have about this for physical stats:

25 STR
26 DEX (Maybe 24)
23 CON
15 BDY
10 PD
10 ED
6 SPD
10 REC
50 END
50 STN

Some of thsoe stats are above NCM. So, what? He pays double. It's not like he's got to burn many points to buy some skills and a shield. Compared to the majority of the Marvel Univers, Cap IS a stat monster. He's not into superhuman range on anything, but most superhumans are in the non-super range in most things themselves. Unless they have their own title, of course.

Cap has been the last man standing in many, many issues of the Avengers, and not because he was hiding behind his shield for the whole fight. Saying he changes tactics to hide behind his sheild when he 's with the Avengers is like saying She-Hulk hides behind her armor skin. Of course she does, that's what it's there for! Same with Cap's shield. I've seen Cap out there monkey-flipping big guys just like Captain Kirk monkey-flipping Klingons more times than I can count.

[Pattern Ghost]

I'm also wondering where the concept of Cap as a "normal" comes from?

Wake up call: Cap has POWERS.

He has the Super Soldier Syrum. The syrum in his system has been repeatedly cited to explain his:


Superhuman stamina; he never (or VERY rarely) tires
Superhuman resistance to toxins and drugs
Superhuman resistance to environemental effects; he has been the last Avenger standing -- including those with gross physical powers -- when the team was exposed to very extreme heat, and that, despite his chainmail union suit.


In the lame-a...ed storyline where he lost the super soldier syrum, his peformance levels dropped dramatically. Even though he trained to recover from the "withdrawl" effects, he still didn't attain his former power. If he wasn't super-powered, why the need to de-power him?

[Pattern Ghost]

Uh, oh yeah, Thor would whip Supes.

Just to stay on topic. =)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Morningstar
WOW! This thread has morphed beyond recognition.

It has indeed. Well, I hate doing that, but here is a quick sketch of Cap at 400 pts, to show what I mean. This is rough stuff, but you get the idea;

Characteristics, 178 pts; Those above NCMs are bought at double cost:
STR, DEX and CON at 23, EGO and PRE at 20, BODY and INT at 18, COM at 16. PD/ED 10, SPD 4, END 46, STUN 45

Powers, 73.8 pts:
Running +4", 5 pts Lack of Weaknesses, LS Ext. Breathing, 2x lifespan, Res. all diseases, safe in Heat/Cold/rads and 10 pts Mental Defense.
7/7 Armor (14- act independant OIF chain mail), and a 40 pts Shield Multipower, all OAF, which includes the following ultras;
-All ranged missile deflection, usable at range
-E-Blast vs PD 6d6 Indirect
-A total of 8d6 HTH attack, all Armor-Piercing, half-END
-13 PD/ED Armor
-Dam Reduction 50% vs P- and E-Dam.
-HKA 2d6 total, Half-END (shield edge).

Skills and others, 145 pts
Generic M-Arts, usable with Shield, 4 PSLs with Shield, 4 CSLs with Shield Multipower, 10 CSLs w Generic M-Arts, 3 skill lvls w. Acrobatics, Breakfall and Climbing and about 60 pts of skills, talents and perks, a bit exhaustive to post here.

Here is a guy that can block with a DCV of up to 20-24, and then strike with an OCV of 24, and a potential damage of 20 DC. His Acrobatics is at 17-, as is Breakfall. And he is only human. What a hero. Eat your heart out you 38-DEX jumping monkeys out there.

Ooof. Now back to Thor vs Supes...

...Thor wins! :D

[Morningstar]

[I]I'm also wondering where the concept of Cap as a "normal" comes from?

Cap's write up in the handbooks and his concept has always been that the Super Soldier Serum raised him to the peak of human capability. Meaning that he is as strong, fast, and durable as a human being is capable of being. None of his genetic material is anything other than that of a human being. He does not register as a mutant or a superhuman on any type of scanner in the comics. Neither would many characters in comics but of ALL of those Cap should be the Strongest, fastest, etc. In champions terms I believe that would put his endurance,recovery, pd, ed, stun all at the most a human can attain.

I think wherever you say his stats are is where you are saying an unaltered human can not surpass. If you have a higher strength or dex or con in the marvel universe, then you have it through superhuman means, or you are a mutant.

The question of what is the maximum a normal human can attain in Champions is not clearly defined, generally I think because there is no reason for it. I used Telios as a good benchmark because he seems to follow the "perfect human" theme. Also the only characters in Champions tht have stats over 30 seem to be super humans, not the experts that Scorpia, Warpath, etc. seem to be. Just my opinion but it seemed logical.

[Tom McCarthy]

One of the things I found quite interesting about San Angelo was that the author clearly believed that NCM was the max a human could achieve and clearly stuck to it for most character designs. It made the perfect man look intimidating, and it gave the 'iconic' heroes a truly distinct feel from their Champions Universe counterparts, because lower characteristics meant extra points for lots of neat skills.

I notice that every edition of Champions seems to give more skills to the starting characters than the one before...

[Morningstar]

Nucleon,

The Cap write up is well done but I thnk it is abondoning the pperfect human concept in order to save points. Great character if you were trying to play him and get under a 400 point limit but I think the question is, is it accurate to the Cap of comics? I dont think so. Would you seriously introduce this chacter into the Champions universe AS Captain America when you have amercan indian archers , and terrorist agents(Warpath and Scorpia) running around that are more dextrous? If you were just trying to defeat them with less points, absolutely, but it really isn't the Cap of Marvel?

BTW wouldn't you make his shield OIF due to the fact it never gets taken away from him, also it is strapped to his arm and he doen't even drop it in the comics when knocked out.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
It has indeed. Well, I hate doing that, but here is a quick sketch of Cap at 400 pts, to show what I mean. This is rough stuff, but you get the idea;

Characteristics, 178 pts; Those above NCMs are bought at double cost:
STR, DEX and CON at 23, EGO and PRE at 20, BODY and INT at 18, COM at 16. PD/ED 10, SPD 4, END 46, STUN 45

Powers, 73.8 pts:
Running +4", 5 pts Lack of Weaknesses, LS Ext. Breathing, 2x lifespan, Res. all diseases, safe in Heat/Cold/rads and 10 pts Mental Defense.
7/7 Armor (14- act independant OIF chain mail), and a 40 pts Shield Multipower, all OAF, which includes the following ultras;
-All ranged missile deflection, usable at range
-E-Blast vs PD 6d6 Indirect
-A total of 8d6 HTH attack, all Armor-Piercing, half-END
-13 PD/ED Armor
-Dam Reduction 50% vs P- and E-Dam.
-HKA 2d6 total, Half-END (shield edge).

Skills and others, 145 pts
Generic M-Arts, usable with Shield, 4 PSLs with Shield, 4 CSLs with Shield Multipower, 10 CSLs w Generic M-Arts, 3 skill lvls w. Acrobatics, Breakfall and Climbing and about 60 pts of skills, talents and perks, a bit exhaustive to post here.

Here is a guy that can block with a DCV of up to 20-24, and then strike with an OCV of 24. His Acrobatics is at 17-, as is Breakfall. And he is only human. What a hero. Eat your heat out you 38-DEX jumping monkeys out there.

Ooof. Now back to Thor vs Supes...

...Thor wins! :D

I'm sorry, that Cap you listed would be destroyed by a Cap of similar points with no NCM and a 38 dex/6 spd.

Str 23
Dex 38
Con 23
Body 18
Int 18
Ego 20
Pre 20
Com 16
PD 10
ED 10
Rec 10
End 46
Stun 45

This is exactly the same as your Cap, except for 38 dex/6 Spd. He costs roughly 25 pts more in stats. To save 24 pts, cut the 3 levels with acrobatics, breakfall, and climbing for 9 pts. He'll still have a 17- roll due to raw dex. Next, cut 5 skill levels with MA for a savings of 15 pts. This Cap already has a 5 OCV and 5 DCV advantage over yours, so he'll have at least the same CV net. Everything else is the same as your Cap.

My Cap can do essentially everything your Cap can do for the same price, but has +2 Spd to boot.

[Pattern Ghost]

Exactly. What I'm getting at is that he's often treated as a guy who is the peak of what a trained, well-conditioned human can achieve. He's got that extr umph from the serum, and although it mostly effects him in subtle ways, he is beyond what can be achieved through "normal" traning. Looking at the other uber-normals in Marvel who use a training-only rationale, you end up with guys trained by mystic monks in tibet and by mystic ninja clans, and other "ancient secrets" type of deals, not Joe Blow the Ex-Marine (Punisher, no matter how much he's been hyped, he still can't beat Cap or even Dare Devil, at least he never did in any of the matchups I read in the 80's/90's) or the local dojo.

He's simply a cut above physically, with a few really low-level powers.


Originally posted by Morningstar
[I]I'm also wondering where the concept of Cap as a "normal" comes from?

Cap's write up in the handbooks and his concept has always been that the Super Soldier Serum raised him to the peak of human capability. Meaning that he is as strong, fast, and durable as a human being is capable of being. None of his genetic material is anything other than that of a human being. He does not register as a mutant or a superhuman on any type of scanner in the comics. Neither would many characters in comics but of ALL of those Cap should be the Strongest, fastest, etc. In champions terms I believe that would put his endurance,recovery, pd, ed, stun all at the most a human can attain.

I think wherever you say his stats are is where you are saying an unaltered human can not surpass. If you have a higher strength or dex or con in the marvel universe, then you have it through superhuman means, or you are a mutant.

The question of what is the maximum a normal human can attain in Champions is not clearly defined, generally I think because there is no reason for it. I used Telios as a good benchmark because he seems to follow the "perfect human" theme. Also the only characters in Champions tht have stats over 30 seem to be super humans, not the experts that Scorpia, Warpath, etc. seem to be. Just my opinion but it seemed logical.

[Nucleon]

By Morningstar
The Cap write up is well done but I thnk it is abondoning the pperfect human concept in order to save points.
I do know perfectly well that the fact to stick to NCW cost me a lot of points.


by Gary
[B]I'm sorry, that Cap you listed would be destroyed by a Cap of similar points with no NCM and a 38 dex/6 spd.
At 38 DEX, are you sure this is Cap?


He costs roughly 25 pts more in stats. To save 24 pts, cut the 3 levels with acrobatics, breakfall, and climbing for 9 pts. He'll still have a 17- roll due to raw dex. Next, cut 5 skill levels with MA for a savings of 15 pts. Everything else is the same as your Cap (...) but has +2 Spd to boot.
Yours actually costs 41 more pts, of which you deduct 24 pts. With the extra 17 pts, I buy almost 6 other CSLs w. M-Arts, being that much over yours, plus gaining the posibility of doing almost 4 DC more damage on bigger foes that way. As for the superior SPD, that's mot much of an advantage if mine cancels or blocks. Chances are you won't touch me.

Now, to be honest, yours will be a better pilot, will be better at diving for cover etc and will constantly have the Initiative, exept if I bloked you at your actions 4 and 10, in which case I will strike first on 6 and 12.


My Cap can do essentially everything your Cap can do for the same price.

Which reinforce my point. With NCM concept, this guy still can beat yours 2/3. He is in the same league as your superagile one. Just a Man.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
I do know perfectly well that the fact to stick to NCW cost me a lot of points.


At 38 DEX, are you sure this is Cap?

Of course it's not Cap. I was simply taking exception to your argument that a NCM Cap would somehow be more effective than a no NCM Cap with 38 dex.


Originally posted by Nucleon

Yours actually costs 41 more pts, of which you deduct 24 pts. With the extra 17 pts, I buy almost 6 other CSLs w. M-Arts, gaining a posibility of doing almost 4 DC damage on bigger foes that way. As for the superior SPD, that's mot much of an advantage if mine cancels, or blocks. You won't touch me, and lose END.

Now, to be honest, yours will be a better pilot, will be better at diving for cover etc and will constantly have the Initiative, exept if I bloked you at your actions 4 and 10, in which case I will strike first on 6 and 12.

How did you get 41 more points? My stats come out to 204 pts with no NCM. Your stats actually come out to 177 pts using NCM. I'm honestly baffled on how you got a 41 pt difference.


Originally posted by Nucleon
Which reinforce my point. With NCM concept, this guy still is in the same league as your superagile one.

2 extra points of speed difference is not in the same league.

[Pattern Ghost]

Not in the same league, that SPD 6 is a pretty big edge. All in all, if any character should have a 6 SPD, it's Cap. Just think of it as "extra attacks". Think of the rest of the Marvel heroes as SPD 3-5 with Spidey around 7, and speedsters like Quicksilver around 8. That's still a pretty reasonable range. Paying 40 pts to go to SPD 6 with NCM is kinda silly, but if you want to do it that way, he's still going to be effective.

EDIT: Crossposted with Gary, not arguing with him. =)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Morningstar
BTW wouldn't you make his shield OIF due to the fact it never gets taken away from him, also it is strapped to his arm and he doen't even drop it in the comics when knocked out.
That was a fast shot. Like I say, a character's only good the fourth or fifth time you make it. The shield should be OIF as you say (althought it does happen that Cap loses it on a fairly common basis), and he should also have hardening on his shield, overall Skill lvls, CSLs usable with 8 others and many more. To fix him at 400 is a bit low; I would be more comfortable with 450-475.

Go Thor!

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
How did you get 41 more points? My stats come out to 204 pts with no NCM. Your stats actually come out to 177 pts using NCM. I'm honestly baffled on how you got a 41 pt difference.
Mmh. Nucleon is supposed to be faultless, mortal. I paid 48 points for my Cap's DEX of 23, plus 7 for its SPD of 4. Yours was 84 pts for DEX 38, plus 12 for SPD 6. (84+12)-(48+7) = 41

I do know mine more or less equals 400.


extra points of speed difference is not in the same league.
So you think the higher SPD always wins, mmmh?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Mmh. Nucleon is supposed to be faultless, mortal. I paid 48 points for my Cap's DEX of 23, plus 7 for its SPD of 4. Yours was 84 pts for DEX 38, plus 12 for SPD 6. (84+12)-(48+7) = 41

I do know mine more or less equals 400.

Ah, I see the problem. You paid double for str, con, pd, and ed because you have NCM. I didn't.


Originally posted by Nucleon

So you think the higher SPD always wins, mmmh?

A 6 vs a 4 will easily if the 2 characters are otherwise equal. Let's suppose you do your blocking thang. I attack on 2 with all levels in OCV, you abort 3 and put all your levels in OCV to block and succeed. Fine, but now you have a DCV of only 10 (8 base plus 2 for martial block). I attack again on 4, and you abort 6 to block again. You're DCV is a mere 10, (8 base and 2 from martial block). It'd be trivial for me to throw the shield and smack you against such a low DCV. I could probably even call a shot to the head. Blocks don't work vs ranged attacks.

Repeat as often as necessary. And if you don't choose to block, I'll just smack you directly and abort to block or dodge myself against any counterattack.

[Jeff T.]

My Cap is 612 points. SPD 6, DEX 28.


Lay the Smite Down on his boy-scout, candy-ass, Thor! :)

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
How about it's throwing enchantment?

This one?

"Causes the hammer to return to the exact spot from which it is thrown after striking its target. "

:confused: I fail to see how it's even a factor. Please elaborate on this idea.


Originally posted by Morningstar
The argument about Superman being too fast is lame since Thor has never had a problem hitting ultra fast beings. It doesn't get faster than the Silver Surfer, and Thor had no trouble pounding him unconcious in there last fight.

Surfer has superfast A to B movement. He does not have classic superfast ambulatory actions like Superman or the Flash. That's a considerable difference, imo. (unless, of course, Surfer has changed... I mean, even the Thing can land punches on him fairly easily, and I'd hardly call him extraordinarily nimble).

[Pattern Ghost]

Does anyone know exactly what happened in the Thor/Spidey/Mongoose brawl? All I remember is the thing with Thor holding up the support for the building.

[Morningstar]

[I]Surfer has superfast A to B movement. He does not have classic superfast ambulatory actions like Superman or the Flash. That's a considerable difference, imo. (unless, of course, Surfer has changed... I mean, even the Thing can land punches on him fairly easily, and I'd hardly call him extraordinarily nimble).

Oh man! I thought we had laid the Thor'Superman part of this to rest and moved on to how to stat Cap and what Dex constitutes superhuman!. :)

Seriously though SS is about the hardest person to hit in comics. His speed is insane and he doesn't need to get close to you to smack you. He does his damage with cosmic blasts circling and dodging you even though he does have class 100 strength if you do get close. The only reason the Thing would touch him is if SS got close because he can't really be hurt by him anyway. WAY WAY back, Silver surfer wasn't as physically tough and was even knocked out by Spiderman but they have raised him high enough up the charts for Wizard to call him number 1 on ther top ten toughest article. I think it was Wizard #77? I have and can verify the number if anyone wants to look it up.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
A (SPD) 6 vs a 4 will easily if the 2 characters are otherwise equal. Let's suppose you do your blocking thang. I attack on 2 with all levels in OCV, you abort 3 and put all your levels in OCV to block and succeed. Fine, but now you have a DCV of only 10 (8 base plus 2 for martial block). I attack again on 4, and you abort 6 to block again. You're DCV is a mere 10, (8 base and 2 from martial block). It'd be trivial for me to throw the shield and smack you against such a low DCV. I could probably even call a shot to the head. Blocks don't work vs ranged attacks.

Repeat as often as necessary. And if you don't choose to block, I'll just smack you directly and abort to block or dodge myself against any counterattack.
-Rewind-

At seg2, yours attack at max w. (13+4+5= )22 OCV. Mine cancels his 3 and blocks with OCV (8+4+16+2=) 30. I have exellent chances. I also blocks your attack at 4 with the same seg3 block OCV (30-2=) 28. I have very good chance. I win the Initiative at seg6.

There, I put everything into OCV, resulting in (8+4+16=) 28. You cancel to dodge (13+5+5=)DCV 23, or block (13+4+5+2=)DCV/OCV 24. Things are looking good for my "Cap", I fear. 15- I hit.

Have I missed something?

(Edit; this is an exchange I adore, but I really do feel it's in the wrong thread; To those interested, please continue it in the "Are you engaged in the DEX race?" thread. Thanks.)

[Klytus]

Originally posted by Nucleon
So, is there a NCM Disavantage in your campaign, and if there is, what does it worth?


Yes, the NCM is there, and worth 20 points. Only thing is, no one in my gaming groups wants to come anywhere near the fool thing! I use the 20-30 benchmarks as a guildeline (but not a strait-jacket) on character concept. You want a DEX above 20? Why? Simply being a mutant energy-projector isn;t a good enough reason. Want a DEX in the high 20s? This is fine if you're a martial artist or speedster type. Want DEX over 30? Not gonna happen unless that kind of DEX is as important to the character concept as STR over 30 is to a brick.

P.S. Go Superman!

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
-Rewind-

At seg2, yours attack at max w. (13+4+5= )22 OCV. Mine cancels his 3 and blocks with OCV (8+4+16+2=) 30. I have exellent chances. I also blocks your attack at 4 with the same seg3 block OCV (30-2=) 28. I have very good chance. I win the Initiative at seg6.

There, I put everything into OCV, resulting in (8+4+16=) 28. You cancel to dodge (13+5+5=)DCV 23, or block (13+4+5+2=)DCV/OCV 24. Things are looking good for my "Cap", I fear. 15- I hit.

Have I missed something?

(Edit; this is an exchange I adore, but I really do feel it's in the wrong thread; To those interested, please continue it in the "Are you engaged in the DEX race?" thread. Thanks.)

Yes you missed something. You chose to accept NCM, so you're paying more points for str, con, pd, and ed. Thus you don't have the 6 extra levels that you're counting on.

You're also automatically assuming a normal strike with no OCV bonus. I could easily do something like sacrifice throw with +2 OCV and both fall down, or sacrifice strike with +1 OCV and +4 DC. With my +2 spd, I can easily take advantage of you on the ground, and you can't do the same to me.

So my OCV is 13+4+5+2=24 and your OCV is 8+4+10+2=24. Since your DCV is a pitiful 10, I can easily call a head shot. If you miss your 11- block, you're toast.

You also cannot block my 4 action with your 3 action. It's after 3, so you would have to burn your 6 action to abort. Even if you succeed in your block, that gives me a free 6 action, which I will throw the shield at your pitiful DCV of 5 or 10, again to the head. You never get an attack back against me without getting smacked a couple of times first.

[Nucleon]

Gary, please take this link to your post's response In the DEX race thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=59769#post59769)

More ale for Thor for His victory over The Man Of Steel!

[Catacomb]

I have an idea...let's make them and then play them.