Is TK too expensive?

[stan da ork]

I was trying to build a Psychokinetic today, and I realized, TK is really farking expensive. It is more expensive per d6 than any other Normal damage Power. And once you apply BoECV, it becomes ridiculous. Now, I understand that the cost is based on the cost of STR, with Ranged applied. However, I think that this overlooks an important point. Specifically, Advantaged Characteristics still add to Figured Characteristics normally. So if I were to buy STR with the Advantage Ranged (I know, technically not allowed), I'd still get the PD, REC, and STUN from that STR. So to better estimate the cost, I think you should also apply the No Figured Characteristics Limitation, bringing the cost of TK back down to 5 points per d6, in line with STR, HtH Attack, and EB.

Now, would this really unbalance the game? I realize this makes TK a bit better than EB, because it has the other STR-like abilities of lifting, Grabbing, etc. But STR is already way better than HtH Attack, and yet people still buy that Power all the time. And as usual, the GM still has to accept the concept of why you picked TK over EB (I would find the Human Torch hard to believe with TK instead of a fire-based EB). Personally, I think this would balance out just fine, and I think it would make TK a much more usable ability.

Comments? Thoughts?

[Fox1]

There is one additional gain- TK is considered indirect to begin with. Can be useful.

All that said however, I tend to consider the DC for TK as opposed to it's active points for campaign caps and than back off a couple to account for its greater utility over EB and the like.

As far as changing the point costs- no. I try to avoid that as much as possible for two reasons.

First is that I want to stay as close to the construction rules as possible. Second, the points don't indicate real game balance and I don't generally use point limits anyway. So it doesn't matter to me.

[Kyle A.]

First of all, you can apply Ranged to STR the book says it should normaly not be allowed. Second of all, as some people on this board have mentioned allowing BOECV to be applied to TK as a 0 advantage does not unbalance the game. It even makes sense. What form of Telekinesis is not controlled by thought? Pyrokinesis, Hydrokinesis, Magnekinesis (I made that word up, don't call me on it), Aerokinesis. All forms of TK that are not bought as a device are targeted with your mind and not how steady your arm is.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

I Think TK is balanced. Otherwise you can get some abusive situations if it becomes better than EB

[stan da ork]

Fox1 - That is a very legitimate point (the Indirect aspect), and one I had forgotten until after I made the post. That alone probably makes TK balanced the way it is, since that is anywhere from a +1/4 to +1 Advantage. Also, your approach to it seems to make sense, and is probably more fair in most campaigns anyway. And like you said, it avoids point cost changes, which are always potentially dangerous. And though I agree with you that points themselves don't create balance, some people don't, and I like to try to balance the points as much as possible just so judging balance is a bit easier.

Kyle A. - You are also correct, and you can always just ignore the book. However, I'd like to have a good reason to ignore the book and go my own way before I just up and do it. I have never heard of BoECV being a +0 Advantage for TK, but I haven't been around all that long. It makes sense, as you said, and I almost think that TK should just be based off either standard OCV or OECV, at the player's option when the Power is purchased, with no effect on the points involved (also see my thread on Partial BoECV).

Roy_The_Ruthles - That is a very real concern, and one of the main reasons I asked the question. After considering the other comments I've received so far, I think I'm going to leave TK alone (although I may adopt Kyle A.'s +0 switch on it).

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

no problem, glad to help stan

[Magmarock]

Also, the advantage to using TK over, say, a Stretched punch, is that if it triggers a Damage Shield, the attacker won't get targeted. Then there is the indirect aspect. :D

Mags

[Markdoc]

There is also the cost/benefit analysis. The flexibility of TK really can be very effective - unlike EB once you hit someone (with a grab) you've got them - you can keep squeezing, effectively getting continuous (or a near approximation) for free. Even better, you can use them to hit someone else.

It's not purely a theoretical consideration: I have played in two games where the GM went through the same thought process you have outlined and reduced the cost to 5 points for 5 STR, and there is no doubt that in both games the TK-using characters dominated all others in combat: plus they got useful out of combat abilities from the power as well.

As a GM, TK is one of those powers I am quite careful of.

cheers, Mark

[Hawksmoor]

For the record I do not advocate true BOECV. Instead since EGO is a targeting stat, priced at the same level as DEX (no Figureds...which fits EGO since EGO does not provide a figured stat) that for certain SFX (Psychokinesis for instance) that the player be allowed at character creation to irrevocably tie his OCV when using this power to EGO instead of DEX. The power would still be visible, still have range mods, and still target the defenders (in all likelihood) higher DEX based DCV. So far, in my small F2F game the effect has not been unbalancing or even really noticable.

Hawksmoor

[incrdbil]

If you go BOECV--then the target defends with ECV..something I'd rather not give away for free.

Another question: if you buy a power BOECV, whatever it is--is it legitimate to nail a target located by mindscan withthe BOECV power?

Yeesh. Talk about the assassin who never leaves home.

[atlascott]

TK allows manipulation of things over a distance, and it is indirect. You aren't opening yourself up to damage shields, and it can be used if you are entangled, unlike strength or EB. I agree with folks that it should always be based on EGO, not DEX. But cost/effectiveness-wise, I think it ought to be more expensive, given its inherent advantages and flexibility.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

i looked at BoECV, and i think the target still defends with DCV, and it's not a mental power so it can't be targeted through mind scan.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

No, the whole point of the advantage is so that you can use your ECV against the target's ECV. And you can also use mind scan in association with the power, but BoECV does not provide mental awareness and it's not invisible.

ah ok, then i'm wrong. it happens

[mudpyr8]

That is how I play TK - BoECV +0, targeted with ECV vs. DCV, although still considered a mental power it can't be targeted by Mind Scan (it is LoS).

[Silbeg]

To start with, I apologize if this has already been effectively answered

If you go BOECV--then the target defends with ECV..something I'd rather not give away for free.
According to 5E p. 147, Psychokinesis (Tk w/ BOECV) targets DCV with OECV... So, one major advantage of BOECV goes away.



Another question: if you buy a power BOECV, whatever it is--is it legitimate to nail a target located by mindscan withthe BOECV power?
A BOECV power is not a mental power, so could not be targetted with Mind Scan (unless it could otherwise be targetted as such, such as the psychokinetic is flashed, and then uses his Mind Scan to overcome the loss of targetting sense).


One of the advantages of BoECV is that it makes a power indirect by nature. If you can see someone through a window you can use a BoECV power on them. You don't need to worry about the barrier between you. That's why many people consider BoECV to be a +0, or at least no more than +1/4 advantage to TK.
Not true... from the current Rules FAQ

<o></o>
Q: Does making a Power BOECV also make it Indirect?<!--[endif]-->
A: No, but you can buy Indirect for it separately.

All of that being said, I personally do have an issue that BOECV Tk (Psychokinesis) is definately over-priced, since really the only thing it does is swap OCV for OECV... you will almost always affect PD, etc., so really, what is the big advantage? I would argue for +¼-½ as the proper advantage... haven't decided what to do in my game re: this (Shawn,Ben, if you are reading this... please let me know your opinion!)

[Hugh Neilson]

All of that being said, I personally do have an issue that BOECV Tk (Psychokinesis) is definately over-priced, since really the only thing it does is swap OCV for OECV... you will almost always affect PD, etc., so really, what is the big advantage? I would argue for +¼-½ as the proper advantage... haven't decided what to do in my game re: this (Shawn,Ben, if you are reading this... please let me know your opinion!)

I think Psychokinesis is not BoECV. I would allow the character to choose to target with ECV (changing no other aspects of the power) as a +1/4 advantage at most, and I agree that being allowed to define the targetting stat (DEX or Ego) for free when an attack power is purchased would be fully reasonable.

[Hugh Neilson]

Psychokinesis is another of those rules exceptions I love some much in that it targets DCV instead of ECV like all other BoECV powers do.

Agreed. Psychokinesis does not use BoECV - it doesn't gain the advantages of BoECV. Better to simply make Psychokinesis a specific advantage aplicable only to Telekinesis than to classify it as "BoECV", then make a huge number of changes to how BoECV works solely for this construct which serve primarily to reduce the value of BoECV with no cost reduction.

[Gary]

One idea I like is to base TK on the HA concept. HA is Str with a mandatory -1/2 limitation. How about making TK, Str with a mandatory +1/2 advantage? Or perhaps a mandatory +1 advantage along with a mandatory -1/2 limitation?

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, TH is Strength, Ranged (+1/2), Indirect (+3/4), No Figured (-1/2) so 10 STR TK = 15 character points

What about removing the automatic Indirect and making TK cost 1 point per poiint of STR, but it must pass through the intervening space (like a construct from Green Lantern's ring). Then, if you want Indirect TK, you simply buy Indirect, just like you do with other powers.

[BobGreenwade]

Personally, I think Telekinesis is both too expensive and too broad. I'd rather see it at 1 point = 1 STR, but take away the choking and squeezing (if you want to damage a target at range, buy Energy Blast -- or at worst allow a +1/4 Advantage for a Telekinetic Squeeze). This would allow a character to lift large amounts of mass without spending a ridiculous amount of points, having to juggle Active Point barriers like crazy, or unbalancing the game.

[prestidigitator]

Let's not forget that BOECV negates all range penalties....

I like the idea of TK using Ego rather than Dex, but I wouldn't like to see it always forced to be so.

[Nevenall]

I think TK is correctly priced. It only took one clever player to convince me of that.

I don't think if this was mentioned, but another benefit of TK is that you are not limited to just 2 telekenetic hands. You can attack as many different people as your END can support. And you can freely attack people you grab at 1/2 their normal DCV.

Also, from the description of Mind Scan 5ER page, 207. "A BOECV power may be used through a Mind Scan lock-on, provided the BOECV power isn't subject to the normal Range Modifier."

[Silbeg]

I personally don't think that Tk is too expensive, as it is a remarkably useful power, for only an effective +1/2 advantage (I say effective, since it isn't really a modifier).

It is more useful than ranged STR (regardless of whether you would allow this in your campaign), as it has the indirect built in. It is also more useful than EBs, both for the indirect, and the ability to grab.

However, that being said, my problem lies with the BOECV. I would agree that there should be an advantage to switching from one type of CV to another (especially from OCV to ECV), as it enables a character to draw on his strengths (don't need to boost both EGO and DEX). However, by requiring that the OECV must target the opponents DCV with Psychokinesis, one of the major advantages of BOECV is diminished. Also, really, targetting physical defenses really reduces the effectiveness of a BOECV attack as well.

Talking with one of my players, I have come up with a probably solution. Much like "Normal Range Penalties Applies" is a -&frac14; "Adder" to the BOECV advantage, I am thinking of allowing "Normal DCV Applies" to be a -&frac14; "Adder" to the BOECV. So, this means that if the character has a BOECV, DCV Applies, Range Penalties Applies, this becomes a +&frac12; advantage, rather than +1, as the effectiveness of the advantage has been diminished.

I welcome comments on this... it has yet to be play-tested in my group...

[Silbeg]

I think Psychokinesis is not BoECV. I would allow the character to choose to target with ECV (changing no other aspects of the power) as a +1/4 advantage at most, and I agree that being allowed to define the targetting stat (DEX or Ego) for free when an attack power is purchased would be fully reasonable.

We are pretty close to being in agreement... see my last post on this subject!
I would say that changing CV bases would be an advantage, so something should be charged, but not a full +1!!!

[Hawksmoor]

Why???

You mentioned elsewhere that the concept is playing to the character's strengths. And that thus it should cost. I say it already did. The character already bought EGO at likely a fairly high level. His DEX too is likely at a high level simply so the mentalist doesn't get pounded by physical (read DEX OCV attacks) too often.

It is really just a switch like PD or ED for an Energy Blast. Against some characters and in some campaigns the decision has a tremendous impact for good or ill but on the whole it really doesn't matter.

Like I said I have used this rule since bringing it up a while ago in my F2F game, and YMMV but I really haven't noticed a difference. The mentalist is not trampling on the game and in not doing anything the Energy Projector with TK is not already doing. She is just doing it based on her higher EGO score.

Hawksmoor

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

yeah i agree with hawksmoor, if it's just for TK i don't see much of a problem

[Silbeg]

Why???

You mentioned elsewhere that the concept is playing to the character's strengths. And that thus it should cost. I say it already did. The character already bought EGO at likely a fairly high level. His DEX too is likely at a high level simply so the mentalist doesn't get pounded by physical (read DEX OCV attacks) too often.


In fact, I am trying to buy the character without buying an outrageous DEX - she currently has a DEX 14, but only because she has been training a good deal of her life in sports, etc. In the area of her physical capabilities, she is a Talented Normal, at best. I have already conceded to increasing her CON to 23, but even that will probably be her maximum. In this character concept, a high-DEX would never make sense. She will always remain vulnerable to attacks with her relatively low DCV (most bricks won't even have that low of a DCV). She will make up for it with strong Psychokinetic Shields (FF and/or FW), but will never be hard to hit.

Buying up her DEX to high levels, just so that she wouldn't get hit often by attacks targetting DCV would be metagaming over character concept, something I really prefer not doing.

Her character concept dictates a strong mind (EGO 20, probably growing over time), but merely normal physical reactions (DEX 14).

Chances are, once she gains XP, her SPD will be going up beyond her current 4 (she is a very inexperienced character, side-kick level at 250-275 points in a 350 pt game), but possibly with a Menton-like limitation, only for Psychokinetic Attacks, or whatever...

So, in her case, switching from OCV to OECV is a significant advantage, but going against DCV vs DECV limits this advantage. Thus why I see BOECV being an advantage, rather than a mere +0 modifier.

[Hawksmoor]

Good. I like the keeping of the concept. But flip the argument. Imagine a 23 DEX 14 EGO Energy Projector. He weilds his energy like a big hand of force. the "rules" say it is not his body but his mind moving the object so his EGO is the targeting characteristic and governs the use of his Telekinesis.

Does this method unfairly penalize the EB w/TK by making him want (concept viablity or no) to buy his EGO up to a higher level?

Would this matter if you simply allowed him to swap out DEX for EGO?

My answers are:

Yes, it unfairly penalizes characters. Yours in particular.

and

No, since you are going to buy a high targeting characteristic anyway.

Hawksmoor

[Hawksmoor]

Also it is Ego based OCV against DEX based DCV.

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

The problem is that we're used to any change carrying a cost, except changes the rule book says don't carry a cost.

Yes, there is an advantage to swapping OCV's (in most cases where this would be desired, anyway). There is an advantage to having an atack that works against PD and one that works against ED, too. I can select the defense I believe my target is weakest in.

Yet we don't charge any extra points to make that Hand Attack Energy, so our Brick can use his STR against PD or ED, at his discretion. Nor do we charge Major Winter extra points for having an ice blast (vs PD) and a cold blast (vs ED).

I believe this logic should be applied more in the Hero system. Two examples that come to mind:

(a) Changing the OCV base from Ego to Dex or vice versa. Te character pays for his Ego or Dex anyway.

(b) Swapping between exotic defenses (Flash, Mental, Power). Conversion of a normal attack to exotic defenses has the same cost, regardless oif the defense selected. Swaping between normal defenses carries no cost. Why should swaping between exotic defenses have a cost, muct less a cost as great as +3/4?

[Agent X]

The problem is that we're used to any change carrying a cost, except changes the rule book says don't carry a cost.

Yes, there is an advantage to swapping OCV's (in most cases where this would be desired, anyway). There is an advantage to having an atack that works against PD and one that works against ED, too. I can select the defense I believe my target is weakest in.

Yet we don't charge any extra points to make that Hand Attack Energy, so our Brick can use his STR against PD or ED, at his discretion. Nor do we charge Major Winter extra points for having an ice blast (vs PD) and a cold blast (vs ED).

I believe this logic should be applied more in the Hero system. Two examples that come to mind:

(a) Changing the OCV base from Ego to Dex or vice versa. Te character pays for his Ego or Dex anyway.

(b) Swapping between exotic defenses (Flash, Mental, Power). Conversion of a normal attack to exotic defenses has the same cost, regardless oif the defense selected. Swaping between normal defenses carries no cost. Why should swaping between exotic defenses have a cost, muct less a cost as great as +3/4? Two very good points.

[Susano]

It's not purely a theoretical consideration: I have played in two games where the GM went through the same thought process you have outlined and reduced the cost to 5 points for 5 STR, and there is no doubt that in both games the TK-using characters dominated all others in combat: plus they got useful out of combat abilities from the power as well.

Yeah, well, in the current revisions of some of those characters, I've been sticking to the standard point levels. Course with all the new build possibilities, Shion is ... uhm... 900 points? :eek: