Recent Artwork Quality

[Myrlyn]

Dear Steve and the Hero Games production crew,

I know you guys read and respond to the boards frequently, and I wanted to give you a little constructive critisism on your two latest books, Dark Champions: The Animated Series, and The Hidden Lands. First of all, I have to say that the actual content for each book is really good, and I'm looking forward to using the material in future campaigns. Great job writing these two books! What I did want to ask about however was the artwork.

The Hidden Lands strikes me as a mix... some of the artwork is very good, and is what I would have expected as your usual high standard. Other artwork, particualrly in the front of the book seems to have suffered a bit, and is not up to your usual snuff. It isn't horrible, but it isn't great either, and it just isn't what I have come to expect from your usual "grade A" artwork.

The Animated Series on the other hand was actually disappointing in the art department. I was really put off by the low quality of the inserts in this book. After the gorgeous detail that appeared in Dark Champions, I was really looking forward to seeing some great companion artwork in this book. Even if it had appeared more "cartoon like" (like some of the artwork in the Hero System Vehicle Sourcebook for example) that would have been fine. In fact, the cartoon art in HSVSB is wonderful, and would have been perfect for this book. Unfortunately, this just isn't the case, and I found myself wondering what happened on this book? Some of the art is reused, or of a similar vein as HSVSB, but the rest just looks bad, and childlike.

To be fair, I know the budget has gotten tighter, and I find myself wondering if this is part of the reason for the dip in artwork quality. Perhaps there just wasn't as much money to hire some of your previously stellar artists (Storn for example, who's work I've really come to appreciate through your other books). I hope that if this is the case that it is only temporary, and that your new books due to come out later will be back up to their usual higher standards for the artwork.

Sincerely,
Keith

[Myrlyn]

Shameless bump to see if someone else might comment.

[memorax300]

I have to agree. the DCTAS and Hidden Lands both suffered from poor artwork imo. Great information but that does not excuse the poor artwork.I just hope this trend does not continue. Espcially with M&M 2E and the new DC rpg coming i\ut.

[AlHazred]

I hate to say it, but I have to agree. The art quality in the first chapter of Hidden Lands looks poor compared to the rest of the book. Similarly, I didn't care for the character portraits in Dark Champions: The Animated Series at all. Don't get me wrong, they're much better than the Dan Dobyski monstrosities I used to suffer from in the old RQ supplement Troll Gods, but the quality difference when compared to the portraits in, say, Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks is jarring. To some extent that makes Champions a hard sell when competing against the very comic-booky stuff in Mutants & Masterminds products.

[ghost-angel]

While cover art rarely sways me ... I think DOJ should look into hiring Brute! for some covers... his stuff ALWAYS catches my eye.

link:
http://www.bruteprop.com/

[beauxdeigh]

I recently picked up DC:TAS from my FLGS and I have to say it gave me hope.

I, too, can one day do interior illustrations for HERO Games! I can draw at least as well as this book's standard.

:D

Seriously, I won't knock David Esbri's work. It was consistent and really fit the "Animated Series" feel. Other than that, it seemed like a miss. The content is very good, though. I would have liked to have more, or fewer characters.

Only book thus far I've actually felt like criticizing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Since no one likes the aretwork anyway, why not have minimal artwork in future and cram in more content? I generally look for content, not art, in my gaming products, so this would work fine for me. I do like disagrams/pictures/sketches of hard-to-describe concepts and characters, but I don't plan on tearing pages out to hang them in my living rom anyway.

Yes, I realize I'm probably in the minority, and that it's the art that catches the eye of the casual reader considering a purchase. However, the "quality" of artwork is a very subjective thing. That said, I'm not seeing a lot of fans of the art in the books in question...

[Erik Roman]

As an on again/off again art contributor to the Hero line of books, I just wanted to let people know that I have done several pieces for the upcoming Pulp Hero book and I promise you that the quality is high. At least the pieces I've done.
I, also, had a piece re-printed in the new Equipment guide (a wizard on an elephant with a demon army)
To see some of my other previous Hero work go to my gallery on
www.bucketoflizards.com
and for some other stuff
www.portfolios.com/erikroman

Maybe you guys can bug Andy into giving me a cover spot!!


~e.

[Hugh Neilson]

As an on again/off again art contributor to the Hero line of books, I just wanted to let people know that I have done several pieces for the upcoming Pulp Hero book and I promise you that the quality is high. At least the pieces I've done.

Not that I consider you biased or anything, but perhaps the critics of recent artwork would like to comment on the quality of your work in particular. In fact, it would probably be of some assistance to DoJ (assuming they want to make a change based on this thread) to know which artists' work is considered of poor, average or excellent quality.rather than just throwing out a blanket "this book's art wasn't to my liking" statement.

[Hugh Neilson]

Erik, I think most of us could safely say that we'd like to see more of your art in the books too. :)

I know MitchellS looks at the art more than I do, so if he says Eric's work is high quality, I'll take his word for it. Thanks for the commentar, MitchelS

[Captain Obvious]

I haven't seen the books mentioned specifically in this thread, so I don't know what exactly is being criticized. As a general rule, however, I find that good art adds a lot to good content, while bad art (or maybe I should say inappropriate art, since I've not seen anything in any Hero product that I would consider poorly done) does nothing to detract from good content. And the content is ultimately what I'm after when I buy Hero stuff.

So while I can't say I'd be just as happy with no artwork at all, if it came to a choice between excellent full-color art on every other page (at the cost of less game material or a significant increase in price) or no art at all, I'd say ditch it.

[BobGreenwade]

Maybe you guys can bug Andy into giving me a cover spot!!I do hope Dave will give you the art for my upcoming article on Terran Empire mass transit, and probably the "Alien Elite" one on top of it.... ;)

[Sketchpad]

I just hope that someone covers Pulp Hero well ... that Predators cover is very bland IMHO ... I'm sure the content will rock, but ouch on the cover :(

[ghost-angel]

On the other hand .. I think the minimalist style on the Combat book is awesome and plan on buying that one hardcopy as opposed to the PDFs I plan on buying for the others.

[Enforcer84]

I don't like to complain. But, and I may be in a minority here, I actually do buy RPG books in part for the art. good art inspires me. Bad art makes me not want to read the book anymore.
I love the HERO system and the actual material is generally worth it to me even if it's just to pick up a new talent, power construct, skill package or what have you. I have been a bit disappointed with the interior art.

[Spence]

The only artwork I actually like to see are ones for the character write-ups and special equipment/vehicles so I can see what they were intended to look like. Other than that I can take it or leave it.

[Blue]

Just got around to looking at the Predators and Combat System Handbook covers. I think the simple cover suited the equipment guid, and similarly I can picture one (though not that one) on the Combat System Handbook. But Predators needed a full on badguy. I can only guess that either there was not a piece of art worthy of the cover, or that the budget did not allow.

I really, really try not to throw stones at the artists. One of the things I learn by going to comic-con is just how woefully inadequate my own stuff is compared to... oh... just about everyone seated at a table there. So that helps me put it in perspective. But the same way I'm not a fan of much of my own work, there are things in the last two books that are not just unimpressive, but actually detract from the things they are illustrating.

But there are also some great things, that I would be proud of, had I drawn them.

[Super Squirrel]

I think it is a simple matter of profit margins. You have to make enough money to pay for the higher quality commissions. It isn't like you see copies of this book sitting in major bookstores on the shelf.

[AlHazred]

I normally don't comment about art. I know how hard all artists work at their craft, and I don't want to say something that will offend anyone. On the other hand, I had to agree with the initial poster, there's just something about the art in the last two books (Hidden Lands and DC:TAS) that was lacking, and to the extent I mentioned before. I mean, I love Storn's cover of Hidden Lands; despite the fact that their clothes are different, I can recognize all of the Champions trapped in the valley. I think it's great! I guess it's just that, when I opened the book, I got something of a shock...

[Blue]

Well, I don't think weaker art will drive anyone away to another system. But I do think it's a hindrance to new buyers.

I know that there are products out there that definitely catch my eye more than the latest Hero offerings.

[Barton]

Suggestion:
The people who are not happy with the art should find artists they do like and have them submit ideas to Hero. I am sure that eventually one of these new artists will click with Hero (quality of work, fees, delivery schedule) and then the art will improve.

Personally I do not care about the art in a book, but I can draw a straight line with a ruler.

This is NOT ment to start a flame war, just a suggestion.

[Killer Shrike]

Agreed; I havent picked up the DCtAS book yet, but the art in Hidden Lands was the worst I've seen in a DOJ era supplement. The cover was really good, but other than that I'd give it a big fat F in the art department.

Further, not only was the art generally bad, except where it was terrible, but for the most part it didnt even seem to have anything to do with the subject material.

Exceptions were Baelrath, Khusor, Prince Marus, and Davos but otherwise I felt that most of the new art only detracted from the book.


Personally, I'd rather see no art than bad art. It just detracts from the book for me.

[BobGreenwade]

The only artwork I actually like to see are ones for the character write-ups and special equipment/vehicles so I can see what they were intended to look like. Other than that I can take it or leave it.I'd extend the list a little to include things like locations, uses of a certain power (re: USPD), and other bits that require some visualization. But I'm mostly of the same mind: use art where it's specifically necessary or helpful for the text, go without it otherwise.

[HewhoisMatt]

Anyone in my group knows I have been very unhappy with the art in the books as of late, in the days of BBB the art work was often out of this world. In my latest purchase the HsEG I was kinda supprised at the lack of art, I would really like to have a pic of the guns and melee weapons that are listed. This is a bigger deal with the Sci-Fi weapons, and martial arts weapons so all the players have the same thing in mind and makes the gear seem less generic.

I have asked several artists I know both on and off the web to send in their work in hopes of things getting better but I do not know if they ever did or if Hero can afford to pay as times are tough.

[zornwil]

I don't believe we need to apologize to DOJ for being disappointed in their book offerings of late. It really sounds like everyone is ashamed of themselves for not being 100% happy with what DOJ is publishing. Ultimately we are the consumers; the ones DOJ is supposed to be making happy so that we keep buying their books. DOJ should be apologizing to us for giving less then 100% of their effort recently. We really don't deserve less then DOJ's best efforts, IMO.

DOJ is creating their own self-fulfilling prophecy: Less money spent on books means lower quality product. Lower quality product leads to less chance of the book being purchased [or even more threatening the possibility of chasing off a fan to another system]. Less books purchased means even less money for future books, which in-turn leads to even lower quality product.

I love the Hero System but I'm slowly finding less and less reasons to buy the books. If DOJ wants to keep my business they're going to need to put a little more effort into future books; and I don't feel I need to apologize for saying that.

I don't think it's people being shy about DOJ so much as what was said earlier above about being shy about the artists. We know they hang out here, some of them I mean, and I share that trepidation because artwork is such a personal thing. It's easier to say "the artwork is lacking" to Steve Long, but not to the people who do the art itself.

I don't really pay much attention to the art. I do think, though, that something that is a bit mediocre technically but consistent and with a good study/story can work well - the first Champions books were like that. I liked the artwork quite a bit. It was a little on the crude side at times, but it made up for that with good subjects and consistency, lending to a comic book feel. This can be done with any genre, not just supers.

[Hugh Vogt]

I don't think it's people being shy about DOJ so much as what was said earlier above about being shy about the artists. We know they hang out here, some of them I mean, and I share that trepidation because artwork is such a personal thing. It's easier to say "the artwork is lacking" to Steve Long, but not to the people who do the art itself.

I don't really pay much attention to the art. I do think, though, that something that is a bit mediocre technically but consistent and with a good study/story can work well - the first Champions books were like that. I liked the artwork quite a bit. It was a little on the crude side at times, but it made up for that with good subjects and consistency, lending to a comic book feel. This can be done with any genre, not just supers.


Hi guys, I'm new to the boards but I've been reading with great interest. I'm a new artist to the Hero world, having done the cover to DC:TAS and most of the art in the Lemurian section of Hidden Lands. For what it's worth I agree that it is perfectly legitimate to criticize poor artwork to whomever it may concern, i.e., the publisher, the art director, the artist himself, etc. These are not, for the most part, pieces of personal expressive thought. They're first and foremost illustrations. If the story, narrative, description, idea or whatever it may be, is not enhanced or somehow clarified by the illustration, then it has failed. Indeed, if it actually detracts, as it's been said here and there in this thread, then it's a disaster. Obviously not every illustration succeeds and savaging a piece of art (which I don't believe anyone has even come close to doing)solely for the purpose of criticism is never called for. But every artist should welcome some degree of criticism, if only to use as a stepping stone for improvement. :)

--Hugh

[Blue]

You're a better man than I! I fold under criticism (though I try not to let people know it).

Honestly, I don't think the Lemurian illustrations are the true targets of the criticism. If I had any criticsm at all of those, it's that the lines are very, very fine, so it's a little harder to pick up the detail and outline when shrunk to fit the page. I rather like your work (Particularly, I like the noble lady on 117)

Good to hear from you (Even under these circumstances ;))

[AlHazred]

I'm a new artist to the Hero world, having done the cover to DC:TAS and most of the art in the Lemurian section of Hidden Lands.

I really only have any problems with some of the pictures in the Atlantis portion of Hidden Lands, and the character illos in DC:TAS.

Essentially, I'm not a good artist. If I really put effort into it, and gave it my all, I'd probably do a good job at drawing, but I'm just too lazy. So I respect people who draw for a living, and, in general, the art in Hero System products rarely bothers me, despite the fact that many in the RPG community hate it. (FWIW, the feeling is mutual; I despise the art in Exalted, for instance.)

So, I will only criticize art if I actually honestly think I could do the same or better myself. After all, I'm paying money so that I and my players don't have to suffer from my laziness.

That being said, I mean no disrespect to any of the artists. I'll have to check out your stuff in DC:TAS to see if it was on my list, or to see if I have any concise criticisms, but in general, if I say nothing about it, I thought it was fine or better.

[Hugh Vogt]

Thanks for the props, guys. :) I wasn't (necessarily) fishing for compliments; my only point was that artists shouldn't be above criticism and, likewise, that those who are not artists shouldn't feel gun-shy about pointing out things that they don't like. ;)

--H.

[Black Lotus]

I've been monitoring this thread for a while.

Any of the Hero Games staff have any comments about this?

[Super Squirrel]

Pulp Hero Art on your website... *drools*

Your character art is very good. I'm impressed. From looking at your webpage, I'd say that you work with characters is your best. You had some pieces that I didn't like as much. The art in Dark Fantasy / Horror section wasn't as impressive though I did like the unpublished zombie piece.

[Hugh Vogt]

Pulp Hero Art on your website...


Whoops, forgot that I'm not allowed to post that stuff 'til PH is published! :D

[Super Squirrel]

Glad I pointed it out before you got in trouble. Besides, I was a Pulp Hero playtester so I don't think Steve will mind too much.

[AlHazred]

Okay, Hugh, I checked. Your stuff wasn't what I was complaining about. It looks good!

[BobGreenwade]

Whoops, forgot that I'm not allowed to post that stuff 'til PH is published! :DWell, look at it this way... it provides a good "sneak peek" advertisement! ;)

[CSgeekHero]

This makes me kinda sad. All nitpicking and griping about the rules aside, I believe in this system. I hope any problems in the art department are quickly resolved.

On the plus side, the couple of pieces of new art in the HSEG pdf preview look fine.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think it's worth making a distinction, here. I think there's plenty of good art in all the Hero books, including the recent ones. I like almost all the cover art in the DoJ era, and all of the books have interior art that's also good.

What I see changing is the consistency of the art quality. It's not that all of the art is sub-par... it's that some of the art is sub-par. Some folks have also commented on the re-use of art, and frankly, I'd rather see a good piece re-used in an appropriate spot than see an original piece of lesser quality.

I don't want to come to the boards and publicly say, "I liked John Doe and Jane Smith's art in the recent book, but Jack Jones and Jean Johnson's art wasn't working for me." It seems needlessly cruel to publicly knock someone's work. (Especially in the case of folks like me, who have no artistic talent of our own.)

Trouble is, I'm not sure how best to give feedback about this to the guys at DoJ. Specifying which art we think is lacking (and why) might be helpful to DoJ in lining up artists for future books.

[Enforcer84]

And art is very subjective. I mean, so far most of us agree where the art is sub par, but that's just this thread with this number of people. Someone out there might love it.
Art can be expensive. But there are a number of talented guys and gals out there. Heck check out some of the HERO Forum Art threads!

[zornwil]

I think it's worth making a distinction, here. I think there's plenty of good art in all the Hero books, including the recent ones. I like almost all the cover art in the DoJ era, and all of the books have interior art that's also good.

What I see changing is the consistency of the art quality. It's not that all of the art is sub-par... it's that some of the art is sub-par. Some folks have also commented on the re-use of art, and frankly, I'd rather see a good piece re-used in an appropriate spot than see an original piece of lesser quality.

I don't want to come to the boards and publicly say, "I liked John Doe and Jane Smith's art in the recent book, but Jack Jones and Jean Johnson's art wasn't working for me." It seems needlessly cruel to publicly knock someone's work. (Especially in the case of folks like me, who have no artistic talent of our own.)

Trouble is, I'm not sure how best to give feedback about this to the guys at DoJ. Specifying which art we think is lacking (and why) might be helpful to DoJ in lining up artists for future books.
Maybe just send a private note to Steve or Darren?

[buzz]

Trouble is, I'm not sure how best to give feedback about this to the guys at DoJ. Specifying which art we think is lacking (and why) might be helpful to DoJ in lining up artists for future books.
I don't see anything wrong with letting DOJ know which artists you like. Rather than focus on the negative, talk up the artists whose work you enjoy. I was thinking of starting an "Artists we love" thread for this very purpose.

Any artist getting paid for their work needs to have a thick enough skin to take some criticism. Not seeing their name on a "raves" list is pretty mild as criticism goes, and gives them something to shoot for.

[Hermit]

I don't see anything wrong with letting DOJ know which artists you like. Rather than focus on the negative, talk up the artists whose work you enjoy. I was thinking of starting an "Artists we love" thread for this very purpose.
I'm all for accentuating the positive. In fact, maybe your Arists we love thread should either incorporate or have a sister thread called Hero Art we love, siting specific pieces? That way, any artists who are brave enough to read it will see which pieces they did that folks really loved.

[NuSoardGraphite]

For me, its the content of the book I'm interested in, not the art.

That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing Hero step up the quality of the artwork in their books. Its understandable that high-quality artists are in demand and are oftentimes too expensive to hire, but there are a wealth of high-quality artists that are effectively unknown. I have a friend who has done artwork for several RPG's that has been critically acclaimed, yet she starves. (Melissa Uran (http://www.melissauran.com/) who did the character template pics in the majority of the Kindred of the East (http://www.melissauran.com/professional/White_Wolf/KotE/dtiger.gif) and Exalted (http://www.melissauran.com/professional/White_Wolf/Exalted/FairFolk/shikuzi2.jpg) books for WW)

Perhaps DOJ should run a Submit your art! contest looking for up and coming artist from among the HERO populace. I'm sure there are some budding artists here that would love to be given a chance at seeing some of their own works in published format.

[archermoo]

For me, its the content of the book I'm interested in, not the art.

That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing Hero step up the quality of the artwork in their books. Its understandable that high-quality artists are in demand and are oftentimes too expensive to hire, but there are a wealth of high-quality artists that are effectively unknown. I have a friend who has done artwork for several RPG's that has been critically acclaimed, yet she starves. (Melissa Uran (http://www.melissauran.com/) who did the character template pics in the majority of the Kindred of the East (http://www.melissauran.com/professional/White_Wolf/KotE/dtiger.gif) and Exalted (http://www.melissauran.com/professional/White_Wolf/Exalted/FairFolk/shikuzi2.jpg) books for WW)

Perhaps DOJ should run a Submit your art! contest looking for up and coming artist from among the HERO populace. I'm sure there are some budding artists here that would love to be given a chance at seeing some of their own works in published format.

Well, I'll point out that they have the submission guidelines for both writers and artists posted on their web page:

http://www.herogames.com/herosubmissions.htm

She should submit some stuff.

[Samurai007]

I first came to Hero Game's attention thanks to one of Storn Cook's art boot camps over on RPG.net. It was a contest to illustrate a character for DH, the winner's work being paid for and published by Hero. As I recall, I didn't win the contest, but was one of several artists that took part that caught Dave Mattingly's eye, and he gave me more work in various issues of DH after that. I'm still waiting to break into the printed Hero books, though. I'm hoping the cover I did for the next issue of DH (and the 2 b&w pieces inside) will be impressive enough to do the trick.

I think Hero should consider a similar contest again if they are looking for more new talent. The money and chance to have your work appear in the product is a nice prize that gets more people to submit work.

[Myrlyn]

Ok, so as the person that started this thread, I just wanted to add a couple of quick adendumns to my intial commentary...

First, thanks to Hugh for being so open to critisism. As an amateur artist, I can admire a true professional attitude for illustration work that his commentary shows. On the critical note, your artwork wasn't had me so concerned in the DC:TAS and Hidden Lands books Hugh, so no worries on that front. I actually did enjoy some of your illustrations for Hidden Lands quite a bit, and hope you get mor DOJ work in the future.

Secondly, I think the idea of a pro-artist thread is a good idea. I haven't checked to see if one got started or not (been offline for the past couple of weeks), but if one did get started, please post the link here so others can contribute from this thread.

One of my personal favorite artists for DOJ is Storn Cook. I think his character illustrations in particular are fantastic and really help you visualize the character and their personality for proper role-play. I think that's what I really missed in these two books on the whole, was illustrations that inspired my creativity as a GM and as someone else pointed out, invoked a feeling like they belonged in a comic book I might read off the shelf.

Perhaps the solution is for DOJ (Steve Long or whomever) to post a few polls of the artists we would most like to see in the next few publications, and let their consumers be their guides for future artwork (if you do this guys, please also provide links to their art, as you can't always tell the artist's name from their illustrations in the books). As some folks have pointed out, artwork in RPG books is subjective. To some, it really adds to the value of the book, to others not so much. But for those of us who do care, it would be nice for DOJ to err on the side of more widely appealling artists' work.

Hopeful for the future,
Keith