Superman's STR and Various Other Abilites [Archive]

Iuz the Evil

Jul 4th, '05, 09:47 PM

I'm going to go with about 125-150 as presently depicted in the comics, varying wildly depending on the writer (and occasionally soaring to 250+ during the Silver Age). JLU he'd be more like around 80-90 I think, they definitely powered him way down.

Maybe 125 w/ +15 STR for pushing? That'd allow him to push up to 150 for 'mighty feats'. He should have a big ol' cosmic VPP for his power stunts too... I've seen that in at least one write up and it seemed to be a good way to simulate 'Big Blue's' many obscene power tricks.

("I just put these cotton balls in your ears while flying through the walls and catching this bullet so your delicate hearing wouldn't be harmed Lois, hope you don't mind...")

Kyle A.

Jul 4th, '05, 10:50 PM

I don't have many comics for Supes but in one that I do have he says he could kick himself to the moon, literally. I vote for 200 to 275 with +65 only to add to pushing.

assault

Jul 5th, '05, 12:00 AM

Superman uses a whole bunch of STR, and other power, tricks. It would be quite appropriate to build him with a fairly restrained STR, and stick some more in a power framework.

Other than that, it would vary according to version. Supes has been on TV and radio, in movies and cartoons, in addition to his actual books. None of these have been quite consistent with each other as to power level. Even his books have varied radically over time.

(The following suggestions apply to his books only).

Golden Age: starts quite low. 60 would be acceptable, especially if you use a power framework to simulate his more extreme actions. He eventually escalates to a point where you would need to raise his base level, though.

Silver Age: he can do anything. Any ridiculous number you care to think of would be appropriate. On the other hand, you could probably get by with a lower number, and treat his higher end performances as tricks and hyperbole. Unfortunately, you would end up being swamped by the evidence...

Bronze Age: there was an initial attempt to tone him down in the early 70s. This didn't last very long. Essentially, from this failure until the mid 80s, he was more or less at the same levels as he was in the Silver Age. Call that 250+ tricks or so for most purposes.

Late Bronze Age: (Post-Crisis) His power levels sank again, but have slowly escalated. I would go with base power levels somewhere between 100-150, plus tricks as usual.

Iron Age: anything goes...

To summarise: all that really matters is relative power level. As long as your Superman is as relatively strong with respect to his environment and the other characters in it as he "should be", he's pretty much OK. You have lots of scope as to "which Superman" you want to choose, so go with whatever feels good to you.

Blushingly: my namesake character Assault is more or less a homage to the early Golden Age version of Superman. He wasn't originally, but has evolved towards that over time. That's a 60 STR version, with tricks.

Mister E

Jul 5th, '05, 04:58 AM

I've seen Lobo beat the snot out of Superman...admittedly in one of Lobo's comic books.

Scene: "The Fortress of Solitude"... a reinactment by memory...

Superman- "I don't know who you are, but this is my home, and I don't want you here. If you are thinking of resorting to violence, I warn you: before you could pull your arm back to throw a punch at me, I'd have you incapacitated."

Lobo- "Izzat a fact, now?"

(Lobo, drunk, kicks Superman in the nuts, and procedes to punch the teeth out of his head... repeatedly)

Lobo- "Man, you sure can take a punch! Do you know what your problem is? You fight like a buttler."

(Something happens, Lobo gets distracted, Superman escapes deeper into the Fortress of Solitude. Lobo, while stumbling around looking for him... comes across a crystal control panel... messes with it, and accidently unlocks a safe with kryptonite in it.)

Superman- "This Lobo villain knows every secret there is to beat me. It's going to take everything I've got to survive."

(Lobo picks up the kryptonite... looks at it... and tosses it away, forgetting about it. Superman gets into some kind of big bulky chrystaline mecha, and waits for Lobo to eventually find him.)

The rest is foggy, but the memory still cracks me up.

BACK ON TOPIC: Superman's STR has to be at least 100, probably more like 120. Grond's STR is what... 80... 90? The "Giant-Man" villain in CC&C's has a STR of 100, I think.

What's the strongest hero in Galactic Champions? Whatever "his" STR is, that's where I'd put Superman. Maybe a little stronger...

60 just doesn't cut it. 40 is more like Spider-Man...

Using the old DC Roleplaying Game, I converted Superman's STR over to Champions, based on weightlifting ability... this gave him a STR of 350. This was Pre-Crisis, obviously... and should be considered way too cartoony for any kind of seriousness.

Hawksmoor

Jul 5th, '05, 05:03 AM

I convert APs of damage effecting powers into DCs and go from there. Thus in 2nd and Revised DC Heroes (Post Crisis) Superman has a STR of 125. I can accept a 150 STR Superman, but honestly see no need since at this level he can still clean the clock of his closest CU competition, Viperia, at the level I placed him at.

Then add in Strength tricks, Heat Vision Tricks, Invulnerability tricks, and Superspeed tricks. Wow. 1800+ character.

Hawksmoor

Mister E

Jul 5th, '05, 05:13 AM

Mister E

Jul 5th, '05, 05:34 AM

To be honest... after the Spider-Man DEX thread, I'm finding it very pleasing to be in agreement with other people.

So, huh... what's Superman's DEX? :think:

OddHat

Jul 5th, '05, 05:36 AM

Stronger than any other Hero in the campaign, but not quite as strong as the top cosmic NPCs.

My NPC Superman tributes for a high powered Champions campaign usually have a base STR of 80 or so, with a STR tricks MP that includes at least one Super-Push slot.

Animated series Superman and Superman handled by writers that hate him (see Lobo above) have STR 20 + 40 Worf Strength (STR only functions at the GM's discretion, -1).

OddHat

Jul 5th, '05, 05:39 AM

To be honest... after the Spider-Man DEX thread, I'm finding it very pleasing to be in agreement with other people.

So, huh... what's Superman's DEX? :think:

Same as his STR - it's all over the map. My tributes usually place it in the low to mid range for supers in the campaign, with levels or a MP slot for those bursts of Super Dexterity.

OddHat

Jul 5th, '05, 05:50 AM

We give Superman a 25 dexterity and then +10 lightning reflexes with costs end for the times he needs to react super-quick. Superman seldom gets missed so giving him a base 12+ DCV doesn't really fit the pattern of the character, IMO.

He doesn't get missed because he doesn't bother to move. He's not that bright. ;)

Or, from a more game mechanics POV, by efinition the Silver Age Superman had Super everything, including DEX, but almost never used all of it at once. In a tribute character, I handle that with Characteristics in a MP.

Hawksmoor

Jul 5th, '05, 06:27 AM

Except that a MP for all such things tramps on another character sctick: Ultraboy.

Superman does not usually bother to dodge because there is no need. His defenses are high enough that he is *very* unlikely to take any damage. Hence I gave my Superman the Psych Lim: Dodge? What is that? at a moderate level so that Superman can dodge if he really sees a need (Darkseid, Cyborg, Doomsday) but most of the time uses 1/2 his DCV or less.

Hawksmoor

-BTW I place him at 45 or three times his DCH DEX score.

Oruncrest

Jul 5th, '05, 06:37 AM

I've seen Lobo beat the snot out of Superman...admittedly in one of Lobo's comic books.

Scene: "The Fortress of Solitude"... a reinactment by memory...

Actually, that scene is from a Superman comic, and Supes was under the influence of the Eradicator at the time, making him more and more... effete. At the end of the story, Supes faked his death in order to stop the fight (and thus keep from having to really wale on Lobo ;) ).

Oruncrest

Jul 5th, '05, 06:51 AM

I have Superman's STR at 100 plus an extra 40 that doesn't do damage (the last time I read up about his Strength, the writers said he could lift the Great Pyramid at Giza...) with the requisite MP for known STR tricks.

As for DEX, I rate that as 40 plus 6 Overall levels and another MP for his Superspeed (my writeup's got 3 multipowers and still weighs in at over 1800 pts).

OddHat

Jul 5th, '05, 06:52 AM

I just don't agree with the idea that he has a 15 base DCV. Are you suggesting that Superman is walking around with a 0 DCV or 1/2 DCV all his combat life? Or are you suggesting he uses his normal DCV level but all his foes have at least a 15 OCV to be able to hit him?

I don't believe Superman dodges [the combat maneuver] often but I don't believe he's walking around at 0 or half DCV as well. It complicates the game when you say Supes has a 15 DCV but he only wants to use 8 of it all the time. To us Superman has his 8 DCV; he gets hit most of the time [sometimes he gets missed] but when he needs to he can react as quickly as Spider-man [to get away from an attack if need be].

I agree with this, even if I use a different mechanic to simulate it.

As to Ultraboy, the difference is that Supes has a MP from a game mechanics point of view, while textually he just doesn't bother to use his full power most of the time. Ultraboy has much lower base stats, a MP from a mechanical POV, and textually actually knows (and says) that he needs to turn off his Ultra-Vision to activate his Ultra-Strength.

Hawksmoore is using the same textual effect as well ("Usually he gets hit, sometimes he's impossible to hit"), but has chosen to give Supes a high base stat which Supes then doesn't use. It all works.

Hawksmoor

Jul 5th, '05, 06:59 AM

I just don't agree with the idea that he has a 15 base DCV. Are you suggesting that Superman is walking around with a 0 DCV or 1/2 DCV all his combat life? Or are you suggesting he uses his normal DCV level but all his foes have at least a 15 OCV to be able to hit him?

I don't believe Superman dodges [the combat maneuver] often but I don't believe he's walking around at 0 or half DCV as well. It complicates the game when you say Supes has a 15 DCV but he only wants to use 8 of it all the time. To us Superman has his 8 DCV; he gets hit most of the time [sometimes he gets missed] but when he needs to he can react as quickly as Spider-man [to get away from an attack if need be].

Like Oddhat said to me Superman (if he were a Player character) just lowers his DCV to 1/2 or less and says "I can take it!". Thus my Superman has a 8 DCV unless something make him want to dodge.

FOREX: Thor can dodge, when Juggernaut tries to unload on him he jumped over the punch. Superman can and does dodge when the Omega effect is gunning for him. Neither character though choose to avoid most attacks though and get punched or zapped by just about everything.

Hawksmoor

Hawksmoor

Jul 5th, '05, 07:13 AM

I never said they did. Only that to my mind Superman can get hit by anyone, unless he chooses not to get hit.

Hawksmoor

OddHat

Jul 5th, '05, 07:18 AM

Those things don't represent super-agility, IMO.

We also need to be clear on what era Superman we're talking about. At his top levels, the Silver Age Superman could do anything, depending on the writers whim. Even in his more conservative adventures, if there was Super-Agility, he would have had it. Golden Age Supes was sometimes little more than a bullet proof bruiser in a cape.

McCoy

Jul 5th, '05, 07:22 AM

Can Superman create a stone so heavy that he can't lift it?

We can estimate a character's STR when we find something that they can't lift. If we see Spiderman pick up a car, then a bus (possibly with a push) then fail, despite an obvious push, to pick up a tank, we can safely say his STR is around 40. But have we ever seen Superman fail a STR feat?

If we're talking Golden Age more powerful than a locomotive Superman, I would say either 100 or 10 more than the strongest PC, whichever is greater.

If we're talking Silver Age move planets with his ring finger Superman, his STR is whatever the plot requires.

Mister E

Jul 5th, '05, 07:36 AM

Actually, that scene is from a Superman comic, and Supes was under the influence of the Eradicator at the time, making him more and more... effete. At the end of the story, Supes faked his death in order to stop the fight (and thus keep from having to really wale on Lobo ;) ).The reprinting of this encounter, the one that I read, was in "Lobo's Greatest Hits". Thanks for the info. :)

Mister E

Jul 5th, '05, 07:38 AM

Can Superman create a stone so heavy that he can't lift it?
Cute. :angel:

MisterVimes

Jul 5th, '05, 07:55 AM

*pulls up rocking chair*
Back in the OLD days of the Adventurers Club in the waning days of the 1980's I recall an article converting DC*Heroes to Champions.
I recall the stats for Superman being around 175 for STR, 50 for DEX, 75 for CON and 5 for INT... just kidding.

He was a beast with PD/ED of 105 each. Of course this was pre-Man of Steel and Crisis on Infinite Earths before everyone became more realistic.

In my Champions campaign of that Era, I had a Soviet (Russian to you youngsters) super-soldier name the Proletarian. He was, essentially, Superman.

I trimmed him back by about 25% and still ended up with:
STR 125
DEX 43
CON 58
BOD 38
INT 13
EGO 28
PRE 58
COM 24
PD 75
ED 75
SPD 8
REC 40
END 125
STN 125

That's just from memory... he schooled a team of 10 beefy supers until they took out the guy that had mind controlled the Soviet Superman.

Captain Photon

Jul 5th, '05, 07:56 AM

I've seen Lobo beat the snot out of Superman...admittedly in one of Lobo's comic books.

Scene: "The Fortress of Solitude"... a reinactment by memory...

The rest is foggy, but the memory still cracks me up.

BACK ON TOPIC: Superman's STR has to be at least 100, probably more like 120. Grond's STR is what... 80... 90? The "Giant-Man" villain in CC&C's has a STR of 100, I think.

What's the strongest hero in Galactic Champions? Whatever "his" STR is, that's where I'd put Superman. Maybe a little stronger...

60 just doesn't cut it. 40 is more like Spider-Man...

Using the old DC Roleplaying Game, I converted Superman's STR over to Champions, based on weightlifting ability... this gave him a STR of 350. This was Pre-Crisis, obviously... and should be considered way too cartoony for any kind of seriousness.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Any body got a write up for Lobo? He's way cooler than Supes, anyday.

Black Lotus

Jul 5th, '05, 01:29 PM

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Any body got a write up for Lobo? He's way cooler than Supes, anyday.

THE HELL YOU SAY!! ;)

Let's see: we have Heat Vision, X-Ray Vision, Radio Sense (or whatever that Power is called), Super Hearing, Impervious to: bullets, explosions, magma (first Superman movie), and direct missile hits (Superman IV), can fly faster than the speed of sound (turns the Earth back on its axis by flying around it in Superman I), can dodge anything (I mean... yeah. If you can change clothes in less than a second, you have a lot of DEX), strong enough to lift anything that needs to be lifted ever (when's the last time you saw Superman NOT being able to lift something?).... crazy.

I wouldn't even know WHERE to begin REALLY writing him up.

Black Lotus

Jul 5th, '05, 01:38 PM

Also, he can lift (and swing) a gigantic bag of nuclear missiles, as evidenced in Superman IV... assuming your average missile weighs one ton (and that's a coservative estimate), and assuming that there were a hundred missiles in the bag (also conservative), that's 200,000 pounds.

From that, I'd say his STR is 120 at a MINIMUM.

Black Lotus

Jul 5th, '05, 01:47 PM

I don't think many people use the movies as a character design reference. :)

But the movie Superman is the sexiest one!

Besides, Christopher Reeve is THE Superman. He's, like, totally canon, dude.

Roy_The_Ruthles

Jul 5th, '05, 02:07 PM

If you can change clothes in less than a second, you have a lot of DEX)

I wouldn't even know WHERE to begin REALLY writing him up.

start with
3pts: Quickdraw (cloths), to let him change cloths in a 0 phase action?

Chromatic

Jul 5th, '05, 02:33 PM

We can make a group effort of this. you can only add one power or disad at a time........

start with
3pts: Quickdraw (cloths), to let him change cloths in a 0 phase action?

Then add
Physical Limitation: Galactically Stupid: never uses his powers to the best of their ability Greatly Impairs, All the time

Next?

Nucleon

Jul 5th, '05, 03:00 PM

Ok, I'm not sure if this has been done before or not.

Main question, inspired by the "Spiderman's DEX" thread: What is Superman's STR?

Also, if there is a Superman write-up, can anyone tell me where to find it?

From the get-go, Nucleon does not like the hyperbole Superman, and he will not take in account all the exesses that overexited authors have ever pulled on him. In each and every icon conversion for the CU, We must have that in mind.

Superman regularly encounters foes that are stronger than him, which means Superman is not the Pro from Dover most people think he is in the STR departement. The guy is "only" an Alien after all; Can all Aliens move their own planet ?

(Eerrr, in the DC universe? Aye.)

Nucleon's "Superman" would be around 1000 pts, making him one of the highest-rated superheroes in His campaign, more on polyvancy-based rather than blunt, top Char scores notably in DEX and SPD (Supes never did strike Nucleon as particularly agile; of late, Nucleon most often than not see him fly backwards, taking the brunt of the ennemy assault). He would have a "Superpower" pool or Multipower that would explain many of his "Super" effects. He is basically a glorified flying brick.

Oh. And his STR? 90. Un-angered Hulk class. The Hulk is the Pro from Dover STR-wise, Nucleon ponderates.

shaunclinton

Jul 5th, '05, 03:42 PM

Tell me one guy Superman has met in recent continuity that was clearly stronger than him??????

He's the Pro-from-Dover in about 12 different departments with Strength and Invulnerability being located on the ground floor!

I wrote him up and posted it here recently, you should be able to find it easily by searching for threads started by me, there aren't that many!

I've modified him a little since then. The recent version has STR 140, with a further +40 at x2 END and a whopping +60 at x3 END for when he really needs it. He has a few psych lims and the like to stop him going off at full power though.

Chances are when Supes shows up and sees a super powered tough he pulls his punch and maybe uses 60 STR or so just to see what the guy can take. This either does the job and Supes continues in that vein, or if it isn't enough he'll crank it up to 80 or so, maybe 90 if that isn't working. It's only when faced with an opponent clearly as powerful and tough as himself that he starts laying out full STR hits... and even then he's not going to use the extra +100 unless it really is life or death.

Black Lotus

Jul 5th, '05, 03:42 PM

start with
3pts: Quickdraw (cloths), to let him change cloths in a 0 phase action?

Dude, I've seen Superman tie people up -- in the comic book -- with super speed. I've seen him catch bullets -- CATCH them -- in the movies. And he can run as fast as he can fly.

He needs a huge DEX, a huge SPD, and many, many levels of Dodge-type abilities. Stop trying to explain away his super speed... he can use it whenever he wants. :P

I SUPPOSE you could create his speed as an "energy" or "magical" Power, but why bother? It's the same result either way. And as for costing him END, the only time I've ever seen Superman get tired (probably low BODY or STUN) were a.) fighting the Sun Man in Superman IV, b.) fighting Doomsday, and c.) whenever he's weakened by kryptonite. Aside from that, he's more-or-less tireless.

These are just my opinions, of course. People who take most of their idea of Superman from the early -- or just "earlier" -- Superman comic books may feel differently.

Nucleon

Jul 5th, '05, 04:18 PM

Tell me one guy Superman has met in recent continuity that was clearly stronger than him??????

Darkseid, Doomsday, Lobo...

He's the Pro-from-Dover in about 12 different departments with Strength and Invulnerability being located on the ground floor!

Yes, it is actually hard to believe that crime can still exist in the same world as Superman...

I wrote him up and posted it here recently, you should be able to find it easily by searching for threads started by me, there aren't that many!

I've modified him a little since then. The recent version has STR 140, with a further +40 at x2 END and a whopping +60 at x3 END for when he really needs it. He has a few psych lims and the like to stop him going off at full power though.

You like to play it safe, don't you? What can possibly oppose such a guy? Does he really need that much STR? Superman's rep is about how he deals with a light touch; If it wouldn't be that way, where would be the much-vaunted heroism?

Ah, but as they say, one man's meat is another man's poison... Nucleon hopes that your version of Superman has brought you fun.

That's the goal, right?

casualplayer

Jul 5th, '05, 04:42 PM

Tell me one guy Superman has met in recent continuity that was clearly stronger than him??????

MitchellS already got Captain Marvel/Shazam. Ummm, Majestic, Imperiex, Monarch, Gog, Validus (has Supes met him in recent continuity?,) Doomsday, that bull angel thingy (might not count, supes was electric blue then,) Darkseid if he gets his hands dirty, maybe even Martian Manhunter if he dumps everything into STR and Growth. I think even Captain Atom has a MP slot for STR that lets him get pretty darn close. Mongul maybe but I think he's dead, Shaggy Man/General is a contender, Amazo, Parasite if he's been eating right. Supes is The Pro from Dover for STR on Earth, but you gotta throw stuff at him to challenge him.

Superman recently needed Green Lantern and Wonder Woman's help to tow the Earth, but he may have just been wanting them to feel like they were contributing. Whatta guy!

Some of these Superman stats cause me to have chills thinking about their world's Dr. Destroyer. Put me down for a 90 STR with a Brick Trick slot +60 Only for lifting stuff. Maybe a 120 and a +40, but then he is completely incompatible with any published HERO stuff.

Iuz the Evil

Jul 5th, '05, 05:32 PM

I think over the weekend a friend and I might take our version of Superman up against Dr. Destroyer to see how it goes. I have a feeling even with the 125 strength, 75 defenses, and 6 speed that Supes will get his butt handed to him though. :)

Wonder how shaunclinton's higher end Superman would fare? My money's on 'big blue'... the DC genre convention is that he cannot lose in the long run. Even if he dies. Even if hopelessly outmatched by all the forces of evil (and a couple heroes for good measure). He flat out is the embodiment of might, right, truth, justice, and the American Way/Hope. With the help of two friends he towed the Earth?! He beat down Darkseid and tossed him into the Great Barrier. He has played the mega-beat-stick for such villains as Doomsday, General Zod, and universe-ending cosmic annihilators.

I'm gonna go with 'this guy does not compute into the CU power set' if we're comparing him to published CU characters. Champions' core universe isn't designed for this power level in mind, that's pretty clear to me. He vastly exceeds the might of say, Viperia as she's depicted. I can't see her dragging the moon out of it's orbit, let hauling the Earth or any significant portion of it's weight. This fellow is like one of Champsguy's more deranged builds in the vast majority of publications reflecting his prowess.

Clearly there's lots of folks who don't like Superman. Or who think he's not 'all that', or 'stupid'. Fine, that's all groovy. However, I'm gonna go with the awe-inspiring paragon of virtue and pinnacle of power and might in representations of him. For cryin' out loud... he's Superman! If he's not the top of the hero food chain, I can't concieve of who would be.

casualplayer

Jul 5th, '05, 05:41 PM

I think over the weekend a friend and I might take our version of Superman up against Dr. Destroyer to see how it goes. I have a feeling even with the 125 strength, 75 defenses, and 6 speed that Supes will get his butt handed to him though. :)

Superman's movement and sensory powers do outclass Dr. D by quite a bit. If Supes' defenses are just raw PD and ED, he'll get chewed up pretty badly by NNDs and such. If you play Supes like Gladiator, I favor him. If he's the boy scout, my money's on Dr. Destroyer.

OddHat

Jul 5th, '05, 05:44 PM

Wonder how shaunclinton's higher end Superman would fare? My money's on 'big blue'... the DC genre convention is that he cannot lose in the long run. Even if he dies. Even if hopelessly outmatched by all the forces of evil (and a couple heroes for good measure). He flat out is the embodiment of might, right, truth, justice, and the American Way/Hope. With the help of two friends he towed the Earth?! He beat down Darkseid and tossed him into the Great Barrier. He has played the mega-beat-stick for such villains as Doomsday, General Zod, and universe-ending cosmic annihilators.

I'm gonna go with 'this guy does not compute into the CU power set' if we're comparing him to published CU characters. Champions' core universe isn't designed for this power level in mind, that's pretty clear to me. He vastly exceeds the might of say, Viperia as she's depicted. I can't see her dragging the moon out of it's orbit, let hauling the Earth or any significant portion of it's weight. This fellow is like one of Champsguy's more deranged builds in the vast majority of publications reflecting his prowess.

Clearly there's lots of folks who don't like Superman. Or who think he's not 'all that', or 'stupid'. Fine, that's all groovy. However, I'm gonna go with the awe-inspiring paragon of virtue and pinnacle of power and might in representations of him. For cryin' out loud... he's Superman! If he's not the top of the hero food chain, I can't concieve of who would be.

Absolutely.

casualplayer

Jul 5th, '05, 05:51 PM

Clearly there's lots of folks who don't like Superman. Or who think he's not 'all that', or 'stupid'. Fine, that's all groovy. However, I'm gonna go with the awe-inspiring paragon of virtue and pinnacle of power and might in representations of him. For cryin' out loud... he's Superman! If he's not the top of the hero food chain, I can't concieve of who would be.

A good Superman comic is like a fine wine. I am really enjoying Gail Simone's run, all of two issues old. Alan Moore occasionally wanders in and scorches off a brilliant issue, most often titling it "Supreme." "Of Thee I Sing" by Garth Ennis and John McCrea may be my favorite Superman story ever.

Most writers just give the adversary 10 more STR and enough DEF and Damage Reduction to take a punch. Boooooooooorrrrrring!

megaplayboy

Jul 5th, '05, 05:55 PM

Silver Age/Pre-Crisis Supes has a 250 STR, which, using the Ultimate Brick rules, is more than enough to move a planet, and theoretically enough to move a solar mass.
Iron Age/Post-Crisis Supes has about half that STR, though perhaps the "Our Worlds at War" Supes might have a 150 STR. It's enough to shift an asteroid around, or lift a pyramid.

Black Lotus

Jul 5th, '05, 05:57 PM

As you can all see from my new avatar and title, Superman is totally frickin' sweet. All his stats are at 999. You can't get any sexier than that. :)

Silver Age/Pre-Crisis Supes has a 250 STR, which, using the Ultimate Brick rules, is more than enough to move a planet, and theoretically enough to move a solar mass.
Iron Age/Post-Crisis Supes has about half that STR, though perhaps the "Our Worlds at War" Supes might have a 150 STR. It's enough to shift an asteroid around, or lift a pyramid.

That sounds about right.

Hawksmoor

Jul 5th, '05, 06:02 PM

As would I. Silver Age Superman is just insane and I don't want insane in my game. The 125 STR Superman I built is just fine for me.

Hawksmoor

Black Lotus

Jul 5th, '05, 06:06 PM

As would I. Silver Age Superman is just insane and I don't want insane in my game. The 125 STR Superman I built is just fine for me.

Hawksmoor

Yeah, I agree that Superman's STR in your game, if you're going to use him, may differ greatly from a "realistic" write up from a given time period.

*ahem* 999.

Mister E

Jul 5th, '05, 07:22 PM

But the movie Superman is the sexiest one!

Besides, Christopher Reeve is THE Superman. He's, like, totally canon, dude.I was on-line, in City of Heroes, the day Christopher Reeve died. Let me just say, it was incredibly emotional. There were Superman copies down in the greaving emote for the solid week. People were starting new tribute Super Groups. Poetry. There we were, playing in a virtual world where everyone is a superhero... and Superman was dead. Sure, Reeve is just an actor... but from a socio-existential kind of way, he was, and still is, the physical manifestation of Superman. A pop-avatar, if you will.

"You will believe a man can fly!"

Lord Liaden

Jul 5th, '05, 08:17 PM

In answer to one of the thread starter's original questions, there have been many HERO writeups for Superman posted on the Internet, for incarnations from various comic eras and other media, at all power levels. The majority of them are for Fourth Edition HERO System, but the differences between that and Fifth Edition relating to these writeups are generally pretty minor and easy to figure out.

Here are links to all the character sheets for Supes I was able to find:

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/text/SupermanGA1-sb.txt

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/text/SupermanGA2-sb.txt

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/text/Superman-sb.txt

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/text/Superman-mm.txt

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/text/Superman-el.txt

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/text/Superman-ms.txt

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/text/Superman-mi.txt

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/text/Superman1950-mi.txt

http://project250.tripod.com/superman.html

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionscomic/superman.html

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionscomic/aju/Superman.HTML

These are from a thread archived from the previous incarnation of the discussion boards; you'll have to scroll to find the Superman writeups.

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/000434.html

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/000434-2.html

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/000434-4.html

OddHat

Jul 5th, '05, 08:24 PM

Would I want to play in a game with a 200 str Superman [the minimum needed to move the earth]? No, not really. I'd much rather play in the JLU version where he's still the king of the hill but beatable.

Again, fair enough. For myself, I've only ever written Superman Tributes to be used as PCs, all of them within campaign guidelines for PCs. If I were to write up "Superman", a duplicate of the comic book character rather than a tribute, I'd put him at the top limits of campaign NPCs. I see that as a defining trait of the character, along with the strict personal code that makes him a Hero.

I don't need to see the crap kicked out of him by every newbie third rate villain to enjoy Superman. ;)

Black Lotus

Jul 5th, '05, 08:29 PM

I was on-line, in City of Heroes, the day Christopher Reeve died. Let me just say, it was incredibly emotional. There were Superman copies down in the greaving emote for the solid week. People were starting new tribute Super Groups. Poetry. There we were, playing in a virtual world where everyone is a superhero... and Superman was dead. Sure, Reeve is just an actor... but from a socio-existential kind of way, he was, and still is, the physical manifestation of Superman. A pop-avatar, if you will.

"You will believe a man can fly!"

Yeah. I don't think I ever feel as much emotion outside the family as when I hear the Superman theme song from the movies. It just sets me all a-tingle.

Yeah, I love the movies. The comics are OK... but the movies are awesome. IMO, of course.

And it was a sad day when Christopher Reeve died; he was a good man, and the Superman of my childhood died with him. Well, untrue, I still watch the movies... but you know what I mean.

All that aside, I still wish they would create a new (and awesome, not lame) Superman movie, if only to bring him to a new generation of kids who have probably forgotten.

Mister E

Jul 5th, '05, 08:47 PM

Yeah. I don't think I ever feel as much emotion outside the family as when I hear the Superman theme song from the movies. It just sets me all a-tingle.I just tingled, thinking about the Superman theme song. :love:

Lord Liaden

Jul 5th, '05, 08:47 PM

All that aside, I still wish they would create a new (and awesome, not lame) Superman movie, if only to bring him to a new generation of kids who have probably forgotten.

Thanks to video/DVD, I think that Reeve's Superman is still very well known to the current younger generation.

But we'll have to see if the new Superman film due for release in 2006 will be sufficiently awesome to inspire the same kind of wonder.

Mister E

Jul 5th, '05, 08:49 PM

Black Lotus

Jul 5th, '05, 09:10 PM

Thanks to video/DVD, I think that Reeve's Superman is still very well known to the current younger generation.

But we'll have to see if the new Superman film due for release in 2006 will be sufficiently awesome to inspire the same kind of wonder.

JESUS CHRIST THERE'S A NEW SUPERMAN FILM!!!???!!!!!

OH MY GOD! OH MY GOD!

Why doesn't anyone ever TELL me these things!!?!?!!

::goes into fanboy paroxysms::

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Lord Liaden

Jul 5th, '05, 09:14 PM

JESUS CHRIST THERE'S A NEW SUPERMAN FILM!!!???!!!!!

OH MY GOD! OH MY GOD!

Why doesn't anyone ever TELL me these things!!?!?!!

::goes into fanboy paroxysms::

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sorry, didn't know you were out of the loop. ;)

See my links below.

Who is playing Superman?

A relative unknown named Brandon Routh.

Here's some publicity info about Superman Returns:

http://www.bluetights.net/info.php

Here's Routh as Superman:

http://www.bluetights.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2&pos=1

From here you can access photos of the cast, locations and sets:

http://www.bluetights.net/gallery/

Black Lotus

Jul 5th, '05, 09:28 PM

The costume looks way sweet, but I'm not too sure about Routh... that's probably because of Chris Reeves, though. The guy looks REALLY good as Clark Kent.

I'm probably out of the loop because I didn't start visiting the Champions section till very recently. (Don't run Supers campaigns... but maybe I will start someday...)

Mister E

Jul 5th, '05, 09:29 PM

Oh... My... Gawd... This movie looks SO good! Kevin Spacey as Lex Luthor? Fantastic!

Mister E

Jul 5th, '05, 09:33 PM

Clark, on the move...

Mister E

Jul 5th, '05, 09:36 PM

Following a mysterious absence of several years, the Man of Steel comes back to Earth in the epic action-adventure Superman Returns, a soaring new chapter in the saga of one of the world's most beloved superheroes. While an old enemy plots to render him powerless once and for all, Superman faces the heartbreaking realization that the woman he loves, Lois Lane, has moved on with her life. Or has she? Superman's bittersweet return challenges him to bridge the distance between them while finding a place in a society that has learned to survive without him. In an attempt to protect the world he loves from cataclysmic destruction, Superman embarks on an epic journey of redemption that takes him from the depths of the ocean to the far reaches of outer space.This actually sounds like a really good plot, to me.

...shouldn't Lois Lane have died of old age, by now?

Black Lotus

Jul 5th, '05, 09:52 PM

This actually sounds like a really good plot, to me.

...shouldn't Lois Lane have died of old age, by now?

If you're referring to the 1938 Action Comics #1... why, yes, yes she should.

Of course, to ME it all started in the seventies when Superman I came out. ROFL

Lord Liaden

Jul 5th, '05, 09:59 PM

Anyone notice Noel Niell in the cast? Lois Lane from the 1950's Superman TV series, with a very brief cameo in Reeve's first Supes film. (In the original script she was mother to Lois Lane, who was supposed to be the little girl in the train who saw teenaged Clark Kent racing it. Noel and the girl had a couple of lines in the scene which were cut from the final film.)

Enforcer84

Jul 5th, '05, 10:23 PM

I think the "S" needs to be bigger on the costume.

GestaltBennie

Jul 5th, '05, 10:26 PM

I'm gonna go with 'this guy does not compute into the CU power set' if we're comparing him to published CU characters. Champions' core universe isn't designed for this power level in mind, that's pretty clear to me. He vastly exceeds the might of say, Viperia as she's depicted. I can't see her dragging the moon out of it's orbit, let hauling the Earth or any significant portion of it's weight. This fellow is like one of Champsguy's more deranged builds in the vast majority of publications reflecting his prowess.

That's pretty close to my take on it. Heck, even Viperia was greeted with howls about her power level when the first VIPER was published. CU characters have to fit into the ecosystem.

And no one would want Viperia being able to pull the moon out of orbit. Well, maybe VIPER would... :-)

I think Superman is manageable if a lot of his most obscene tricks are bought with MegaScale Area Effects and the Only to Push/Pull limitation. Then you can put his combat strength at about 2-4 DCs above everyone else's max and have it so the PCs can fight him without being pulped every segment or using the "he always pulls his punches" dodge that strike most players as lame.

Clearly there's lots of folks who don't like Superman. Or who think he's not 'all that', or 'stupid'. Fine, that's all groovy. However, I'm gonna go with the awe-inspiring paragon of virtue and pinnacle of power and might in representations of him. For cryin' out loud... he's Superman! If he's not the top of the hero food chain, I can't concieve of who would be.

No argument from these quarters.

megaplayboy

Jul 5th, '05, 10:56 PM

well, 20-40 active points above PC level gives you a pretty impressive level for a Superman type, esp. if they have most of Supes' range of abilities.

So, for a 60 AP game, Supes could have an 80-100 STR and look pretty awesomely Kryptonian from a PC standpoint.

If you want Supes to be not much better than the PCs, then giving him a 5-10 AP edge in stats and powers would do the trick, esp. since he's basically a brick/speedster/energy projector.

shaunclinton

Jul 6th, '05, 03:04 AM

MitchellS already got Captain Marvel/Shazam. Ummm, Majestic, Imperiex, Monarch, Gog, Validus (has Supes met him in recent continuity?,) Doomsday, that bull angel thingy (might not count, supes was electric blue then,) Darkseid if he gets his hands dirty, maybe even Martian Manhunter if he dumps everything into STR and Growth. I think even Captain Atom has a MP slot for STR that lets him get pretty darn close. Mongul maybe but I think he's dead, Shaggy Man/General is a contender, Amazo, Parasite if he's been eating right. Supes is The Pro from Dover for STR on Earth, but you gotta throw stuff at him to challenge him.

One by one...

Captain Marvel isn't stronger than Superman, I think most people can agree on that.
Majestic, again, no clear evidence.
Imperiex is stronger than Superman, but we're not gonna shoot anyone in the Marvel Universe down for being weaker than Galactus.
Monarch is debatable, there was no clear strength feats he performed greater than Supes.
Gog I'll give you, he's shown to be stronger than Superman.
Validus I have no clue about!
Doomsday is awesomely strong, but the implication is that he's on a level pegging with Supes, not that he's stronger.
Darkseid isn't stronger than Superman, more powerful, but not stronger.
Martian Manhunter doesn't have Superman's strength either, nearly, but not quite. His abilities are all a smidgeon below Supermans.
Same rings true for the White Martians.
Captain Atom, not a hope in hell.
Mongul, strong, but not as strong as Supes... never performs any feats that show this.
The General is a fair contender, but it's never really made explicit, but I'd accept based on the Shaggy Man and some fight scenes he might be in the ballpark. I'm willing to be if push came to shove Supes would be stronger.
Amazo has Supes strength, so he's about the same. I'm certain that he can't add heroes powers together, he takes the best one.
Parasite becomes super-strong from draining Supes most of the time!!! Thus another one who can become as strong as Superman, but is usually stopped before then.
Oh, and as for Lobo... don't make me laugh!!!
One that you guys forgot is Zod, who might be stronger, but I think Supes has soaked up a few more rays!

So, it looks as though the roll call of being definitely stronger than Superman is thus...

Gog
Imperiex

Hmmm... not that impressive is it?

Something to bear in mind is that 99% of the time Supes is holding back. Whilst you can rest assured The General or Lobo or whoever isn't. So a lot of guys you might assume are in the same range aren't as powerful. Plus, most people in the same sort of high-STR bracket (Shazam, MM, etc.) don't have the same raw STR or the insane pushing ability.

shaunclinton

Jul 6th, '05, 03:06 AM

As for how my high powered Supes will compare to Dr. D!!! Well, in about 3 or 4 weeks we'll find out as my universes Dr. D is soon to come into conflict with Supes and his pals!!! Should be a meaty confrontation.

Mister E

Jul 6th, '05, 05:01 AM

I think the "S" needs to be bigger on the costume.His boots could use some heels, too.

starblaze

Jul 6th, '05, 05:33 AM

A good Superman comic is like a fine wine. I am really enjoying Gail Simone's run, all of two issues old. Alan Moore occasionally wanders in and scorches off a brilliant issue, most often titling it "Supreme." "Of Thee I Sing" by Garth Ennis and John McCrea may be my favorite Superman story ever.

Most writers just give the adversary 10 more STR and enough DEF and Damage Reduction to take a punch. Boooooooooorrrrrring!

I think Alan Moore did the story "The Man who has everything". It was a very good SuperMan story IMO.

casualplayer

Jul 6th, '05, 08:03 AM

I think Alan Moore did the story "The Man who has everything". It was a very good SuperMan story IMO.

Yep, Superman or Action Comics Annual or something. They used it for a JLAnimated episode, think they called it "The Rose of Krypton." I love that the lotus could be removed with only the strength of Robin, but Superman and Batman (and Mongul) couldn't muster the will to do so. Drawn by that Dave Gibbons guy; those two should get together and do something else.

MisterVimes

Jul 6th, '05, 08:47 AM

Yep, Superman or Action Comics Annual or something. They used it for a JLAnimated episode, think they called it "The Rose of Krypton." I love that the lotus could be removed with only the strength of Robin, but Superman and Batman (and Mongul) couldn't muster the will to do so. Drawn by that Dave Gibbons guy; those two should get together and do something else.

The Plant was the "Black Mercy". Single most evil plot device ever.

And Moore and Gibbons dig collaborate on one other item... The Watchmen, only Comic to ever win the Hugo Award for excellence in science fiction. They changed the rules the next year to bar future comics.

MisterVimes

Jul 6th, '05, 09:59 AM

I don't believe Captain Marvel is tougher than Superman but I have no problem with the idea that he might be stronger.

And smarter... Wisdom of Solomon and all that.

MisterVimes

Jul 6th, '05, 10:20 AM

Yeah, you can take the "name" in a lot of directions. Speed of Mercury could also imply he is faster then Superman as well.

Well, he IS the world's mightiest mortal

shaunclinton

Jul 6th, '05, 01:27 PM

You could imply a lot of things. And of course Alex Ross is fully entitled to his opinion. But sadly continuity doesn't back him up.

Superman is stronger and faster than Captain Marvel.

Marvel is 'Earth's Mightiest Mortal' and as far as I'm concerned the Big Red Cheese is awesomely powerful. More so than most people might make him. I'd have him kicking Thor's pansy ass all day for instance. But there's never been anything in the comics to suggest that he is more powerful or even as powerful as Superman, the de facto benchmark for Superhumans in the DCU.

Black Lotus

Jul 6th, '05, 02:43 PM

I'll take the opinion of a DC professional, who corresponds with DC professionals on a regular basis, over 60 years of mish-mash character continuity any day of the week. :)

That settles it... TO A VOTE THEN! WHO IS STRONGER!?!?!? ::starts the poll::

vitruvian23

Jul 6th, '05, 06:12 PM

You could imply a lot of things. And of course Alex Ross is fully entitled to his opinion. But sadly continuity doesn't back him up.

Superman is stronger and faster than Captain Marvel.

Which continuity?

Silver Age/Bronze Age continuity pre-Crisis had him exactly on a par with Supes, with perhaps a slight edge due to his abilities being magically-based.

The various post-Crisis revivals have been mixed, with some preserving his relative power and others implying he and the rest of the Marvel Family are rather weak in comparison, especially when Power of Shazam had them splitting the Shazam power whenever more than one was transformed.

In Kingdom Come, he's back to being an even match, even with Mary and Freddy permanently transformed (although presumably they're somewhat weaker, otherwise they would play a bigger role in the final conflict). I don't know whether you accept that as part of continuity, but KC does show up in Hypertime....

Personally, I suspect that DC is beefing CM up again just to hedge against the possibility of Shuster's heirs winning their legal battle and Superman not being available to them any longer. Same reason for having umpteen Majestic miniseries.

McCoy

Jul 6th, '05, 06:38 PM

Validus I have no clue about!
IIRC, Validus has been show on more than one occasion holding his own against Superboy and Mon-El at the same time. Superboy =/= Superman, but if Validus is that much stronger than Superboy, he probably is stronger than Superman.

shaunclinton

Jul 7th, '05, 12:39 AM

Superboy = Superman is an equation that looks remarkably similar to...
Robin = Batman

Ie. Complete guff. Superboy is a half-baked Superman. He isn't as strong, as fast and doesn't have anywhere near the same power level. He has an extra power (woo) and an attitude. But that's it. Half the DCU are stronger than Superboy so I don't think we can compare people to him and then claim that they're stronger than the real deal.

Hawksmoor

Jul 7th, '05, 02:41 AM

Shaun,

Pre-Crisis and Post Crisis. Pre Crisis Superboy is the younger version of Clark jaunted off to the future, oh wait that was an alternate timeline Clark that was whisked away by the Time Trapper to form an icon that the LSH could colesce around. He then died.

Superboy is a bit weaker than Superman only in that adult males are generally stronger than adolescent males.

Hawksmoor

assault

Jul 7th, '05, 06:52 AM

Pre Crisis Superboy is the younger version of Clark jaunted off to the future, oh wait that was an alternate timeline Clark that was whisked away by the Time Trapper to form an icon that the LSH could colesce around. He then died.

Yesss... good old Crisis...

The real Superboy was first published in 1945, and written out of continuity in the mid-late 80s.

While a lot of his stories weren't particularly good, most of them were fun, and a few were classics.

See: http://superman.ws/tales/1950s.php and the rest of that site.

In particular, note:
http://superman.ws/tales2/lsh/ (first appearance of the Legion of Superheroes)
http://superman.ws/tales2/mon-el/1/ (first appearance of Mon-El)
http://superman.ws/tales2/ultra/ (first appearance of Ultra Boy)

The weenie modern pretender Superboy has been around for almost 15 years now, and is still a second banana.

Arr... In my day, we had real comics, we did... not like the rubbish you get these days... ;)

McCoy

Jul 7th, '05, 07:15 AM

Nucleon

Jul 7th, '05, 07:25 AM

Superboy is a bit weaker than Superman only in that adult males are generally stronger than adolescent males.

Nucleon read something to that effect somewhere in Superboy/LHS lore. That line explain much how Super Strength worked for awhile in DC comics.

Once you got Super Strength, you were in the same league as everyrone who had it; "Super" was more like a fixed multiplier rather than added bonus. From there, it depended on your original strenght, size and built.

Most often than not, when you had superstrenght, you also had the Flight and Invulnerability -and heat vision- that went with the package.

:stupid:

Nowadays, of course, DC has gone more subtler.

shaunclinton

Jul 7th, '05, 04:03 PM

The original Superboy (pre-crisis) was indeed fundamentally similar to Superman. In fact... I have a copy of the very issue wherein Jimmy Olsen falls into a time pool and goes to Smallville and has Superboy perform a variety of feats that Superman performed in the future to find out who is more powerful. They come out even as I recall. Jimmy is then handed some 'Amnesium' to take back to the future as he now knows that Clark Kent = Superman. This robs him of his memories. Utter nonsense.

I am well aware that an = sign with a slash through it means not equal to. I don't really know precisely what that comment was about.

The current (post-crisis) Superboy is a different kettle of fish altogether. Half Supes DNA, half Lex Luthors... however, as I recall they also had to tinker with Kryptonian DNA to get it to work, which was originally the explanation for Superboy's lower power levels, not quite invulnerability and tactile telekinesis. Now I imagine the whole 'half human' thing explains the tinkering they did. As for the adolescent vs. full grown male thing, well, I wasn't arguing about potential strengths. I was arguing about their actual strengths. Which are different. Different in the respect that Superman is stronger. It doesn't matter if this is because of the age difference, solar energy stores, lex luthor DNA or Kryptonite flavour Wheatos. Superman is stronger, end of story.

I'm quite sure that Nucleon is correct in his assessment of how Superstrength works, but I'm also sure that there are different 'multipliers' that come into play for different 'flavours' of Superstrength (ie. Kryptonian, Daxamite, Amazonian, Apokalyptian, etc.)