Always On (and Inherent): okay i'm abusing it...

[Dr Divago]

Next question, same campaign (do you think i'm spamming? :))

I'm building bioware cyberimplant; what are Bioware? bios are modification made by genetical rewrite or genetic-cloned-organic replacement.

I think that almost all are inherent, like Skinweave (damage resistnce), radwave (LS to radiation), vacweave (LS to vacuum), tuff bone or muscle bone lace (bonus to CON), Artificial Endo Skeleton (Damage Reduction), and like

but for give "inherent" advantage, i must use always on limitation.
Always on states that:
1) power become visible
2) power must limit

some cases are ok (heavy skinweave are visible and may reduce touch perception; endoskeleton increase weight and more)

but in some situation, i must "bend" the limitation:
some skinweave are too light to be visible and to give hindrance; some endoskeleton are'nt visible; some LS (like hemological replacement) are internal and not visible nor give sufficent disadvantage

In this case, i cannot give Always On, but if i want to give Inherent i must give Always On...
so...
is "permietted" to reduce Always On (to -¼ or -0 limitation) to mantain possibility to add inherent even if are'nt limitation for an always on power?

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

yes, you may reduce the value of always on if it's not limiting.

Example: A character wanted to have Inherint regeneration, so it's always on. I asked how this was a limitation, when would it be "bad" for you to regenerate? Since you don't need to operate on the, it doesn't matter that it's hard to cut them open etc. I think we ended up at -1/4 becuase that made us both happy.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

and no, i don't think you're spamming :)

[Black Lotus]

Yeah, what Roy said. Uh... because i can't come up with anything better without the book with me... ROFL. *shrug* What can I say?

And I actually enjoy your frequent threads, Divago.

[Dr Divago]

and no, i don't think you're spamming :)

And I actually enjoy your frequent threads, Divago.
:p well, most friend of mine call me "a spammer" (in affective way) 'cause i'm a BIG poster...

[Black Lotus]

:p well, most friend of mine call me "a spammer" (in affective way) 'cause i'm a BIG poster...

Constructive criticism to help improve your English: affective = affectionate.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I think that almost all are inherent, like Skinweave (damage resistnce), radwave (LS to radiation), vacweave (LS to vacuum), tuff bone or muscle bone lace (bonus to CON), Artificial Endo Skeleton (Damage Reduction), and like

but for give "inherent" advantage, i must use always on limitation.
Always on states that:
1) power become visible
2) power must limit

some cases are ok (heavy skinweave are visible and may reduce touch perception; endoskeleton increase weight and more)

but in some situation, i must "bend" the limitation:
some skinweave are too light to be visible and to give hindrance; some endoskeleton are'nt visible; some LS (like hemological replacement) are internal and not visible nor give sufficent disadvantage

In this case, i cannot give Always On, but if i want to give Inherent i must give Always On...
so...
is "permietted" to reduce Always On (to -¼ or -0 limitation) to mantain possibility to add inherent even if are'nt limitation for an always on power?

Don't worry about it, really. Unless your GM is very anal, its not a big deal.

Lets not forget that "visible" doesn't always mean "by sight". The "Visible" limitation means that it must be detectable by around 3 comonly used sense. These can be any of the standard 5 senses (though Taste would be unusual) or any other common sense in the campaign your GM approves for such a limitation, like Radar or Sonar.

In the case of a Cyberpunk campaign, there are all kinds of little hand-held sensor devices running around, and no self-respecting cop (or crook) leaves home without one, so I would say Skin Weave could be detectable by Touch, X-ray and by Electromagnetic scanner (or whatever) and you should be good to go.

And if your GM isn't cool with this, then simply slap the invisible to sight advantage to the power. That should do the trick.

Don't worry so much about the "X can't have Y and must have Z to work" aspect of the advantage and limitation system. Simply build the powers as it makes sense between yourself and your GM. Otherwise you might spend all your time on these message boards arguing with the crotchety old-timers around here.

[Dr Divago]

Constructive criticism to help improve your English: affective = affectionate.Okay you're right...
my english is poor...
^_^

[Dr Divago]

Don't worry about it, really. Unless your GM is very anal, its not a big deal.Well except for the fact that i'm the GM, it's all ok :)

by the way:

Don't worry so much about the "X can't have Y and must have Z to work" aspect of the advantage and limitation system. Simply build the powers as it makes sense between yourself and your GM. Otherwise you might spend all your time on these message boards arguing with the crotchety old-timers around here.:rolleyes: ehm ehm... :)
the fact is: its my first time running an Hero campaign; is DIFFICULT found someone who whant play Hero (it's about 4 year that i'm searching to start a little campaign at Hero...) and now i'm starting a campaign only 'cause players want to play Cyberpunk
(okay, PC are not forced to play, all agree about "testing" this system, but i feel that are only making a test and are not very interested in playing hero... in "player creation" someone pose question "why we don't play all interlock game instead this more complicated version"?)
:(

yep, i'm demoralized... i think this will be an unsuccessfull adventure and this may ruin forever possibility to convince him to play Hero again...

btw, NOW i'm wandering off (that's mean "Divago" in my nickname :)) and spamming

so, back in line with question:
can i choose any "limitation" for always on?
i mean: in creation time, power will be:
Skinweave level 3: Always On (-¼) means that is visible to sight with -4 pen, visible by touch if searching carefully)
Skinweave level 4: Always On means that is visible to sight and touch, and limiting touch perception with -1 or -2
Endo Skeleton: Always On means that are presente a weight increase
Armorweave: Always On means that are visible and reducing permanently 2 DEX
Metaheme Hemological Replacement:Always On (-¼) means that are ore susceptible to poison (50% more effect? 15% more effect? every time is maximum effect?)

In other word (my "spamming side effect" are occuring...) i can choose every time a new "side effect" for the always on limitation?

[Fox1]

i can choose every time a new "side effect" for the always on limitation?

Yes.

I'm not certain why you're wanting to add inherent to the bioware however. Is there something in your cybepunk world that would attempt to dispell or supress it?

Or is it for cross-genre trips?

[Ura-Maru]

Inherent only matters if there are drains or supresses that can affect the power in question.

Since you're using the 'restrainable' and 'cyberware' limitations (that already make cyberwear vulnerable to special drains) you might not need to worry about it at all. People arn't going to be running around with all the assorted drains you'd expect in a supers or a fantasy campagin.

---
"Must remain . . . in control . . . stop . . . talking in . . . fragments!"

[Teflon Billy]

Ok, now I'm confused. Because I had thought Inherent was a really expensive way of preventing Drains and Supresses.

Now, if I'm reading this right, "Always On" means that no matter the power it is always noticable (visible) no matter what, and you now have to take "Fully Invisible Power" to counteract that.

Which is cool, but what happens if someone, for example, buys Energy Blast as Inherent. Does that mean he has the Cyclops syndrome? Always blasting away 24/7?

Or do you still have control over the power like any other Energy Blast?
Can you add the Invisible Power advantage to counteract the Visible requirement of Always On?

Another one, what if a character bought Shapeshift with Inherent, is this person always noticable as having an amorphous form? Or is this Visible restriction only in effect when the Character is actively (though not nessesarily concsiously) changing shape?

TB

[Mister E]

Okay you're right...
my english is poor...
^_^Better than my Italian. :cheers:

[OddHat]

You do not need Always On to get Inherent.

You only need Persistant.

So, Armor is persistant by default. If you define Skin Weave as 6PD/6ED armor, you can add Inherent and you're done.

If you want to define Skin Weave as a Force Field, you need to buy 0 END and Persistant, and can then add Inherent on top of that.

Always On is only needed if you want to limit the power.

[Dr Divago]

You do not need Always On to get Inherent.

You only need Persistant. :nonp: :nonp:
are you sure?
in FREd? (not 5ER...)?
(maybe resource kit are bugged... i must control on FREd, all right...)

[Dr Divago]

Better than my Italian. :cheers:Well, i supposed... :p

[Fox1]

:nonp: :nonp:
are you sure?
in FREd? (not 5ER...)?
(maybe resource kit are bugged... i must control on FREd, all right...)

Yes, just Persistent.

The confusion comes from the fact that Inherent Powers are defined as always on (i.e. you have extra limb as Inherent- you can't turn off an extra limib). The option to pay END to turn the power off is allowed with GM approval (can't imagine it with extra limb, but it works for a Ghost's Desolid).

The idea is that 'always on' isn't *always* a limit for such powers. If the fact of it being always on is a limit, they you should of course take that limit. Hence the books states: "..and if applicable have the limitation Always on"

Bolding above mine.


Inherent can't be drain, aided, transferred, dispelled or suppressed.

All in all, I think it's a wasted option in your typical cyberpunk world except for very specific things like extra limbs and ghosts.

[Hugh Neilson]

Yes, just Persistent.

The confusion comes from the fact that Inherent Powers are defined as always on (i.e. you have extra limb as Inherent- you can't turn off an extra limib). The option to pay END to turn the power off is allowed with GM approval (can't imagine it with extra limb, but it works for a Ghost's Desolid).

The idea is that 'always on' isn't a limit for such powers.

Inherent can't be drain, aided, transferred, dispelled or suppressed.

All in all, I think it's a wasted option in your typical cyberpunk world except for very specific things like extra limbs and ghosts.

I thought you had to have the power be Always On by the book, but that it was still possible that Always On was a -0 limitation (ie if there's no disadvantage to the power being always on, you can still make it Always On, it just doesn't get any point breaks).

[Vorsch]

I find it amusing to think of a non inherant tail.

Just me

[OddHat]

Pg.258, 5thER. It only has to be Persitent, and if applicable Always On. For Damage Resistance or Armor, Persistent powers to which Always On really shouldn't usually apply, you don't need any other advantages or limitations; you can just add on Inherent. For something like Inherent Flight, you'd need to add 0 END, Persistent, and Always On.
Finally, at the GM's option, you could pay END to turn off an Inherent power. I really don't like this part of the rule (I'd rather see Ghosts buy off the Always On Limitation as a custom power called Solidification), but it's there.

[Supreme Serpent]

I find it amusing to think of a non inherant tail.

Just me

I don't think of tail as inherent.

You often have to put some effort in to get some.

And if you're not careful, you could work it off.

;)

[Vorsch]

I also consider my arms inherant, but as thats not actually bought it cant be dispelled unlike a tail which is bought ( unless you have it as a sfx for other powers ).

30 15Dispell apendage 10d6 ( not usable vs head -1 )

[Hugh Neilson]

I also consider my arms inherant, but as thats not actually bought it cant be dispelled unlike a tail which is bought ( unless you have it as a sfx for other powers ).

Alternatively, one could assume that your "standard equipment" is inherent by default (you didn't pay points for it after all, so "what it cost" isn't overly meaningful). You can still Drain Running with the SFX of legs that shrink and eventually disappear, I suppose.

[Dr Divago]

Alternatively, one could assume that your "standard equipment" is inherent by default (you didn't pay points for it after all, so "what it cost" isn't overly meaningful).Well, in fact, all cyberware are "dispellable"; EMP are build as "Dispel Cyberware"
Bioware, au contraire, is'nt dispellable: EMP does'nt turn off your skin...

[Kristopher]

Ugh, one of my biggest pet peeves...the use of Dispell against Presistent Powers. Bleah.

[Vorsch]

that just sets the scene for alot of sfx based powers that are inherent but nobody ever pays the points for it.

[John T]

Alternatively, one could assume that your "standard equipment" is inherent by default (you didn't pay points for it after all, so "what it cost" isn't overly meaningful). You can still Drain Running with the SFX of legs that shrink and eventually disappear, I suppose.IIRC, the only "standard equipment" that is naturally Inherent are a character's baseline senses; normal sight, hearing, touch, taste/smell.

note: after checking 5e p165, this is implied but not specifically stated.

John T

[PhilFleischmann]

There's a difference between "always on" and "Always On." The first is just a description, while the second in a Power Limitation. A Persistant Power is likely to be always on, but it isn't necessarily Always On.

And on the outside chance that anyone is interested in my opinion, I NEVER use Inherent, at least not as a paid-for Advantage. All your powers and stuff are Inherent for free - if it makes sense - or non-Inherent - if it makes sense. And most things are non-Inherent. I've never been able to come up with a concept justification for Inherent that couldn't be reasonably overcome by some other concept withing genre. Do you think your limbs are Inherent? Ask someone who's lost a limb. Do you think your normal senses are Inherent? Ask someone who's lost a sense. I can't think of anything that is *truly* inherent.

[mikesama]

The easiest thing to do really is have all cyberware have an universally applied limitation: Cyberware -1/4 and have all of the related things about cyberware fall under the blanket limitation

[Enforcer84]

Ok, now I'm confused. Because I had thought Inherent was a really expensive way of preventing Drains and Supresses.

Now, if I'm reading this right, "Always On" means that no matter the power it is always noticable (visible) no matter what, and you now have to take "Fully Invisible Power" to counteract that.

Which is cool, but what happens if someone, for example, buys Energy Blast as Inherent. Does that mean he has the Cyclops syndrome? Always blasting away 24/7?

Or do you still have control over the power like any other Energy Blast?
Can you add the Invisible Power advantage to counteract the Visible requirement of Always On?

Another one, what if a character bought Shapeshift with Inherent, is this person always noticable as having an amorphous form? Or is this Visible restriction only in effect when the Character is actively (though not nessesarily concsiously) changing shape?

TB
I always thought Inherant meant the "power" was natural to the character. Saturn Girl's mental powers strike me as candidates for inherancy since her whole race has them and I don't think that they would be nullified by "Anti-Mutant or anti-power" drains. Perhaps Psionic scramblers, but not Mutant ones...am I making sense to any of you? I lost me after the second sentance...

[Fox1]

Do you think your limbs are Inherent? Ask someone who's lost a limb.

Requires a kill attack or the like to destroy (or a transform to change). Can't be dispelled or supress by the HERO rules.




Do you think your normal senses are Inherent? Ask someone who's lost a sense.

HERO includes the point totals of these. As I recall, they don't come inherent.



I can't think of anything that is *truly* inherent.

Desolid to a ghost.

They have no physical form, so a dispell or supress would in effect kill that- HERO does not allow that so a killing attack (or transform to give them a body) would have to be used.

[PhilFleischmann]

Requires a kill attack or the like to destroy (or a transform to change). Can't be dispelled or supress by the HERO rules.
Why not? How about a nerve strike or a drug that renders an arm useless. It just hangs there limp by one's side until it wears off. It's only temporary. I'd build it with a Supress (or maybe even a Drain).


HERO includes the point totals of these. As I recall, they don't come inherent.
Good.


Desolid to a ghost.

They have no physical form, so a dispell or supress would in effect kill that- HERO does not allow that so a killing attack (or transform to give them a body) would have to be used.
I was trying to keep it to real world examples, and I happen to not believe in ghosts. But if I'm modeling a ghost in HERO, I wouldn't make it pay extra for Inherent. It's Inherent by genre convention, or who knows, maybe someone might come up with a SFX/mechanism that would make in-genre sense for the ghost's Desolid to be Drained/Dispelled/Supressed. I can't think of one off hand, but that doesn't mean it can't exist (especially since we're talking about a supernatural phenomenon).

[Fox1]

Why not? How about a nerve strike or a drug that renders an arm useless. It just hangs there limp by one's side until it wears off. It's only temporary. I'd build it with a Supress (or maybe even a Drain).


The already includes rules for nerve strike. And a Supress build isn't needed for drugs as we have Entangle for that.

The tendency in 5th edition towards off the wall builds has clouded the issue in this area. Just because an idea of a build occurs, does not mean that it should be selected.




I was trying to keep it to real world examples, and I happen to not believe in ghosts. But if I'm modeling a ghost in HERO, I wouldn't make it pay extra for Inherent.

You're free to do as you like in the respect.

However inherent is there for those of us who want to use it as its intended. I'll make no call for forcing you to use it, if you make not call to remove it from my game.

[zornwil]

Well, since we're on the subject, I don't like Inherent, personally (I'm not suggesting there's a rules problem here), and instead I just go by SFX. If your "limb-cutter" is a shredder with big razors, sure, arms are as jeopardized as any Extra Limb. If your limb-cutter is a spell that removes "unnatural appendages" (hmmm, I was going to make a lewd joke, but no...) then your arms stay on. Although the latter might be specific enough I'd almost certainly allow a limitation.

[Hugh Neilson]

It's Inherent by genre convention, or who knows, maybe someone might come up with a SFX/mechanism that would make in-genre sense for the ghost's Desolid to be Drained/Dispelled/Supressed. I can't think of one off hand, but that doesn't mean it can't exist (especially since we're talking about a supernatural phenomenon).

Depends on how one envisions the Desolid working. If you believe ghosts exist only or partially on the Astral Plane, can't we have a spell which wrenches them to the material plane, effectively making them solid?

[PhilFleischmann]

The already includes rules for nerve strike. And a Supress build isn't needed for drugs as we have Entangle for that.
"Nerve Strike" does NND damage. It doesn't render a limb temporarily useless. A "nerve strike," OTOH, could. IIRC, the only way to make an Entangle do this, is to add BOECV, Mental Power Based on CON, Affects one limb only, and maybe Wears Off After X Time. To me this seems much more complicated than a Supress.


The tendency in 5th edition towards off the wall builds has clouded the issue in this area. Just because an idea of a build occurs, does not mean that it should be selected.
Clouded what issue? I'd say the tendency in 5th edition towards off-the-wall builds has inspired greater creativity and flexibility. Just because there's a typical standard build for a particular concept, does not mean it's the only build that should ever be used.


You're free to do as you like in the respect.

However inherent is there for those of us who want to use it as its intended. I'll make no call for forcing you to use it, if you make not call to remove it from my game.
Yes. I certainly haven't made any such call, nor would I.


Depends on how one envisions the Desolid working. If you believe ghosts exist only or partially on the Astral Plane, can't we have a spell which wrenches them to the material plane, effectively making them solid?
A fine example! Thank you.