Suggestions for selling Hero to the GM of my GURPS 4e group?

[arcady]

I play in a GURPS 4e group that is on hold until end of summer.

During the summer I'm running an Ex Machina game for them, but at end of summer the regular GM picks back up and its likely he'll go in for GURPS Fantasy again.

He has some issues with that though, in that he as well as I doesn't like the magic system of GURPS. It just isn't generic or customizable enough. It has a lot of new options in 4e, but they make it overly broad when applied - for example, if you use the ritual magic system its like giving all the mages Cosmic VPPs with 'requires skill roll', 'side effects', 'gestures', and 'incantations'.

He wants something more akin to being good with tweaking the magic you know and dealing with the spirit world.

I'm thinking - give me a multipower and a10-15 point VPP only usable for adding to spells you know and I have close to what he wants - maybe.

He's recently come across GURPS Spirits and says 'this is closer to what I desire... but 3e and not exact.'

I know that, given access to the inside of his head, I could put together a perfect magic system for him in Hero. That's the advantage a toolset engine offers.

I've managed to sell him on 'probably picking up Fantasy Hero as a genre reference book because lets face it, [inserting my opinion from here on:] its better than GURPS Fantasy 4e even for use with GURPS'.


The other players all know GURPS, but not Hero. One -might- have played Hero a few times 'way back in the day'.

The goal: get these people to try it out.
The limit: I won't be GMing, just so only have my ability to persuade.

The tactic: get a good list going of everything they can't do right in GURPS that Hero does well, while glossing over everything that works the other way around ( :p ).

Any advice for arming myself on that tactic?

[teh bunneh]

GURPS is a good system. I played a lot of it, and if I still had a GM that knew the system I'd be playing it today. However, I've not played 4th edition, and for all I know these issues have been fixed.

First, it's a great system for "realistic" games, but it's not so good at cinematic things. If you've got a half-dozen highly skilled operatives (PCs) who try to jump a largish group of moderately-skilled enemies, the PCs will get creamed eight times out of ten. Let's face it, that's probably what would happen in the real world, but if you're playing a game that wants to recreate the feel of the movies it's not so good.

Second (personal opinion here), the GURPS magic system sucks. No other part of the game feels as tacked-on and poorly thought out as their magic system. The wizard is the most severely underpowered character in the team (just slightly worse than the archer). Sure, he can toss out a 3d fireball... but it takes him 4 rounds to do it! And he has to make his skill roll at the end of those four rounds, so if he flubs it he's just wasted a lot of actions. Not to mention the insane number of prereqs he's got to buy before he can get a Fireball spell (Create Fire, Ignite Fire, Shape Fire, Control Fire, Direct Fire... I can't remember how many there are, but a warrior just has to spend 1 point and he knows how to use his axe; a wizard has to spend 5-6 just for a decent offensive spell... plus he's also had to spend 30 points to buy the Magery advantage. Ouch).

OK, sorry about the rant. As you can see, I've got major problems with the magic system. YYMV. :)

Third, the combat system can really drag out between two skilled opponents (and a HERO player saying that combat can drag out is saying something!). ;) Put two fencers together and combat pretty much goes: Attack-Parry-Attack-Parry-Attack-Parry-Attack-Parry-Attack-Parry, until someone gets unlucky and flubs their Parry roll. Even adding some of the optional martial arts maneuvers in there doesn't speed things up appreciably, and can often slow them down. Pit the Four Musketeers against the Cardinal's Guard and you've got a combat that'll likely last all night. :rolleyes:

Fourth, no Stunning. Well, that's not exactly true, but the stunning/unconsciousness rules really feel like they were added as an afterthought. This, in my mind at least, is a major flaw. I like having options other that "Kill 'em all" in my fights.

Fifth: genre compatibility. Hopefully this has been fixed in 4th ed, but in 3rd edition you really had a hard time combining genres. You really couldn't use two different books in the same game, because they weren't built around that idea. Try using a character built using GURPS Martial Arts in a GURPS Psy-Ops game; try using a character from GURPS Psionics in a GURPS Supers game; try using a GURPS Traveller character in a GURPS Trans-Human game. You can't -- at least, not without a lot of work.

Sixth, the sourcebooks. There's a jillion of them, covering every topic from ancient rome to Star Trek. And they are all chock-full of generic goodness about the history of the era, notable persons, how to run a game in that genre, and so on. Why is this a problem? It's not! It's huge advantage! The books are usually generic enough that converting them over to HERO is a piece of cake. Even if the sourcebooks are 3rd edition, it doesn't matter since you're not using the GURPS rules!

Anyway, I know that's all MHO and I'm sure 4th edition has made some changes, but I hope it's still helpful. GURPS is a good system, and I played in a lot of fun games -- low fantasy, zombie horror, near-earth space, special ops, western, and others. It's pretty good at what it does, and I'm sure you'll have a great game even if it's not HERO. G'luck! :bounce:

Bill.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

start by talking about HERO with your GM, maybe running a small one shot. If you don't want to do that, try putting together magic deals in HERO, then show and explain them to your GM. getting fantasy hero is good, sidekick might be another good step

[Lord Liaden]

What comes to my mind first is showing your GM HERO's potential for customization without costing him a cent. ;) For that I recommend some of the websites dealing with designing fantasy game worlds, particularly magic systems. Killer Shrike's excellent website, High Fantasy HERO (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.htm) would be good place to start, particularly his magic system design pages (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/Powers/Magic.shtml#ControlFactors). For more great magic design advice and examples you can also direct him to Markdoc's Ultimate Grimoire (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/9529/Gaming_stuff/Grimoire/the_ultimate_grimoire.htm). Then of course there are all the fantasy games on my RPG conversions list.

What exactly is the GURPS Spirits take on "dealing with the spirit world?" Your GM might be interested in Runequest Spirit Magic adapted to HERO (via the RQ entry on my list). Getting away from freebies for a moment, the magic system from The Valdorian Age is all about dealing with spirits - maybe that would interest him.

[Supreme Serpent]

I'd push the "reasoning from effect" approach - one mechanic, nigh-infinite special effects.

The ability to say "this is what I want the spell to do, so I'll use XYZ powers, advantages, and limits to build it and get exactly what I want" instead of "I want a spell that does XYZ...what spells are available that do that? Hmm...that's close, but I don't want a Body Control spell...isn't there an Earth domain spell that does that? No? Ok, I guess I'll go with the Body Control one...HOW MANY PREREQUISITES?"

Maybe try running a sample game or two for him, and work through some character generation. GURPS and HERO are similar in many ways, and should be an intuitive switch in many ways - points-based character construction, advantages/limitations on powers, 3d6 based for actions, various d6 based for damage, DEF / DR, etc.

[TheQuestionMan]

Grab a couple of Magic Characters from Narosia Sea of Tears, the Combat Crib Sheet, and some dice.

Throw down a quicl plot and have a copy of Fantasy Hero, FH: Grimoire, & FH: Grimoire 2 lying on the table. Then "FIGHT". You could also have him visit the Hero Games Discussion Boards Fantasy Hero Forum and ask Herophiles to kibitz. Especially one knowledgable in both systems.

Cheers

QM

[RavensPath]

Check out the thread I started on Fantasy Hero

How to get them off d20 (http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33630)

It is D&D specific, but a lot of the suggestions are not about the other system, but about selling HERO.

And in that thread there is a post with other threads listed.

It worked for me. My group went from D&D to Fantasy Hero.

[Markdoc]

My experience is that it's not that hard to sell Hero system to GURPS players: the two are much more alike than different.

So having said that, if you have problems with GURPS - especially GURPS Fantasy - it's usually in two areas. Magic and Combat.

You can point out to the GM that Hero keeps all of the crunchy GURPS goodness he's used to (wide range of choices, character customization, etc etc) but alllows you to design a customized but balanced magic system (or more than one, which is cool)

With regard to combat, Hero system is both faster and more flexible than GURPS. You have access to a wide range of combat maneuvers including the ability to "make stuff up" easily on the fly, since the basic mechanisms are more mechanistically consistent.

Last of all point out that all his GURPS investment is not wasted since converting from GURPS is largely a doddle, once you have the basic transitions straight in your head.

cheers, Mark