The New Champions

[fredrik_nilsson]

Superhumanity might have godlike powers, but at its core it's still composed of humans. Like groups composed of normal humans, superhuman groups evolve. If you were in charge of rewriting the Champions, how would you do it?

The rules:

Select between four and six of the heroes in the poll.
Since this new group is based on the official Champions, at least two members from the original team should be a part of the new group.
Note:
It would be interesting to see your explanations for the new group. Why these heroes? What are the members from the old Champions team, that aren't a part of the new team, doing today?

[fredrik_nilsson]

Here are some motivations:

Defender
He's the initiator of the project.

Deuce
In the official Champions Universe she will fight together with the some of the Champions against Mechanon (acc. to Galactic Champions). That doesn't mean that she'll become a Champions member, but considering her dislike for being a part of PSI it's quite possible she'll desert PSI.

Doctor Silverback
He is already a reserve member, and I guess the team would love to have his scientific know-how (and his gadgets).

Ironclad
He's a current member, and probably the strongest of the ones mentioned here (provided you don't include magical or technical STR augmentation).

Kinetik
He is a reserve member, and he has been given an offer to be a full-time member on several occations. He'll fight alongside Deuce in the battle against Mechanon.

Nighthawk
Current member

Nightwind
Currently just a reserve member. He would add a lot of martial art knowledge to the team, and he could be a perfect teacher to other newbies (like Deuce).

Sapphire
She's a co-founder of the team (together with Defender), and currently also a member. She want's to be in the spot-light. The Champions are often in the middle of all the action.

Thalya
She will be a Champions 3000 member, but according to Galactic Champions she was a friend of the original Defender.

Witchcraft
Currently a member. The future arch-mage!

[Iuz the Evil]

Well, Defender for sure... gotta have him.

I like the idea of Thalya joining the team, given the backstory listed for her.

I suppose I'll give Witchcraft a vote, as you need a mystic for such a team.

I'd also like to see Obsidian, who you didn't list, as I miss his presence

...and likewise a revamped Seeker, back from getting his butt kicked across the covers of countless Champions products.

What can I say? There's no school like the old school...

[fredrik_nilsson]

Well, Defender for sure... gotta have him.

I like the idea of Thalya joining the team, given the backstory listed for her.

I suppose I'll give Witchcraft a vote, as you need a mystic for such a team.

I'd also like to see Obsidian, who you didn't list, as I miss his presence

...and likewise a revamped Seeker, back from getting his butt kicked across the covers of countless Champions products.

What can I say? There's no school like the old school...
I'm glad to see that you liked me idea of adding Thalya, but then again who doesn't like Wonder Woman (or at least a WW homage)?

I'm also glad to see that you mentioned others besides the ten mentioned in the poll. I wanted to add others, but you can't have bigger polls.

[Kirby]

I actually prefer the 4th Ed Champions over the 5E. You said choose 4-6, but your poll only allows for one, so I chose Dr. Silverback. The only other I would have chosen from the list would be Kinetik.

I liked Seeker, Quantum, and Jaguar from 4E, along with 4E's Defender's outfit. To me, Sapphire's appearance is too slutty and Nighthawk has the dumbest costume hood ever.

What might be interesting is to see a Champions team like DC's Conglomerate, where the heroes were sponsored by various companies. This way, Binary Man and Cavalier could be on the team.

Just my thoughts.

[Iuz the Evil]

I liked Seeker, Quantum, and Jaguar from 4E, along with 4E's Defender's outfit. To me, Sapphire's appearance is too slutty and Nighthawk has the dumbest costume hood ever.

"...Let's get dangerous" :thumbup:

[Sketchpad]

I didn't vote ... personally, I find most of the current Champions a bit bland. I like Defender and that's about it. Give me a more dynamic team that's more akin to the JLA or Avengers and I'll be happy ;)

[Lord Mhoram]

I'd bring Seeker back.

And that isn't a joke, he was always my favorite of the Fourth Ed Champions, with Defender running a close second. I much prefer the combatative in your face "I'm going to kick your butt" kind of martial aritsts in comics than the sneaky detective types. Heck look at my avatar - so Seeker is much more to my style of martial artist than a batman ripoff with a goofy birdbeak.

[OddHat]

Using only the characters above, and assuming a modern 350 point starting game:

Doctor Silverback: Baby brick gadgeteers rock. Talking gorillas rock. Making a talking gorilla the leader of the team would, well...be really annoying. Still, I like the power set. I'd re-make him as a Beast type character in a gritty game, or leave him as is in a Comedy game.

Ironclad: Alien bricks work as homages to so many characters, and open all sorts of plot possibilities.

Kinetik: I love speedsters. Every team should have one.

Witchcraft: This character has grown on me. I really disliked her at first. Her parents are serial-killing, orgy-throwing cultists, but she's a shy sweet virginal little flower...it annoyed me. However, I liked her family's write up in Arcane Adversaries, and I like the general outline of her origin even if I dislike the specifics. I could work her into something really interesting given time.

[Hermit]

Thoughts on the line up possibilies and changes that I would go with:
Defender
Should stay the leader of the team. He's too core to the thing, though it would be interesting if he had a friend who took over for a time or helped him out once in awhile ala James Rhodes for Iron Man or even Champions:NM "Team Defender". James should be shown as reconciling his wastrel playboy repped secret ID (and the disapointment his parents may feel at not living up to the family legacy) and his growing superhero duties. Also, by now, for goodness sake, he should be aware of the ladies on the team who want him and perhaps show interest in one or the other.

Deuce
I'm all for a mentalist on the team, sure Witchcraft already fills that niche, but PSI is just too ingratiated in MC not to have a clash eventually and this would show that. New Shadow self powers would be fantastic, there is potential for real character growth here.

Doctor Silverback
A popular guy, and I think he should definitely be a frequent friend of the Champions, but with Defender and Nighthawk on there already he isn't needed as often. Besides, he is a great cameo man...errr gorilla and shouldn't be limited to the Champions.

Ironclad
Drogen should have to deal with the consequnces of being AWOL from his people, and the Hzeel interest of Earth. Like it or not, I see him as becoming a crucial figure in the alien scene.

Kinetik
Have him join up. He's a cool guy, a trivia wizard speedster and a great flash like homage.

Nighthawk
Definitely keep him, the team needs a detective/sneak to keep tabs on the streets, but fill in his backhistory with more detail. His origin/motivation to be fighting crime is the most unsatisfying. This is a character that's grown on me the more I've used him as an NPC even when the other Champions were getting the same treatment.

Nightwind
Strikes me as too much of a loner.

Sapphire
Make her make the hard choice as being a Champion, rather than helping her music career, ends up hurting it. Which will it be, super hero or Singer?
Whether she stays or not might depend on if the romantic triangle in the team goes sour or no.

Thalya
I'm cool with leaving her as a guest star for the current day Champions at best.
Witchcraft
Buy off the underconfidence, have her grow into her power and gather more tools required to qualify for Archmage; one gift each from the worlds of Man, Good, Evil, and Legend. I think she'll stay on even if the triangle goes sour, she is needed too much and should realize that.


So I'd go with keeping the team we have, and adding Deuce and Kinetik. I know that's seven, one over, but it's how I think it would work out.

Besides, you could have one missing for stretches at a time. Ironclad to answer charges before the Empire, Witchcraft questing in mystic dimensions for relics of power, etc.

[pinecone]

The poll only let me vote once...DR Silverback, he's just cool. Nightwind is a better martial master type for me, I've just never liked Nighthawk. Kinetic also should be a main member 'cause I just dig speedsters....Thalia would be a nice addition as well...I guess I just don't like the example team very much...:)

[Southern Cross]

Fair enough.I'd choose almost anybody over Nighthawk,to be honest.I'd keep Defender & Witchcraft,as I think they're more compatible than Defender & Sapphire.I'd also keep Ironclad.

[Sketchpad]

Personally ... I'd love a chance to redesign some of the characters ... in my own campaign, the Champions are a much grander team including some redesigns of old heroes (4th ed-), some redesigns of current heroes and some additional stuff like a Champions Member package, team used gadgets, etc. I think the only character that I kept in appearance is Ironclad, most of the others I've played with some costume redesigns, as well as giving Defender a slew of armors akin to Tony Stark :)

[Edsel]

Of the choices listed I chose Defender.

Personally I am still brooding over Solitare being replaced by that pretender Witchcraft.

[shadow_walker]

Defender, it justs feels right to me.

[fredrik_nilsson]

The poll only let me vote once...
I was extremely tired when I made the poll, so I created it wrong. Is it possible to change it into a multi-choice later? Maybe it might be better to create a new poll. :help:

Still, some information (that might have been the result in a multi-choice poll also) can be gained from seeing the poll as it is:

The most poular Champion is for some reason Defender (9 of 27 votes), followed by Witchcraft (5 of 27 votes).

If these 27 votes are a good representation of all Champions players, then Sapphire and Ironclad would leave the group. They would be replaced by Dr. Silverback and Thalya.

[Kirby]

Something that's been toying around in my head since I started GMing (back in 4E days) is creating multiple Champions teams, like there are Justice Leagues and Avengers. With the US, starting out with a West Coast & East Coast expansions of the Millennium City team, followed by a European franchise and possibly International/Earth variant (maybe HQ in space). I don't know why this hasn't been done already, unless they want to keep using the same small group for artists. :shrugs:

[Mark Rand]

Here's an idea that I've had kicking around in my head for years.
The base is 200 points and the heroes have as many points in disadvantages and experience as they need. Although they're new as a team, they're all experienced fighters.
Defender, the team's leader, the son of a wealthy man, spent the past six years in special forces. His armor, which resembles the Marvel Iron Man armor, is nanotechnology based and responds to his mental commands. It powers up and down as needed.
Warder, heiress Lisa Ward, is the team's mage. Her parents, both white mages, who taught her magic as she grew up, were murdered before her eyes by evil cultists. Her familiar, Sunshine, is a black cat
The team's base, Homestead, is Lisa's mansion. A spell converted it into a fastness.
Shadowcat, a ninja and one of the team's reservists, is also the team's technical manager and has a masters in electronics engineering. Her garb is based on the Draconis Elite Strike Team costume from Battletech.
Wendy Brooks, the team's housekeeper, is Lisa's closest friend. Her parents, the Ward family's maid and butler, were murdered along with Lisa's.
Denise Dumont, the team's federal liaison, always wears gloves. They conceal a strange rash that has covered her hands since she was nine. There is no cure for it, however, it hasn't spread past her hands.

[assault]

My dream team:

Dr Silverback
Thalya
Kinetik
Seeker

I suppose I should add Sapphire and Witchcraft too. They could be used somewhat like Fire and Ice back in the JLI days, and provide balance to the team's power set.

I think Seeker would be a good foil for the others in terms of personality.

Actually, the JLI feel is rather strong...

[SvZurich]

Thalya!!! I adore her! She gets my vote!

[Kristopher]

The changes I would make wouldn't revolve around membership so much as point totals and builds, but that's another thread entirely, I think.

[GoldenAge]

Gotta go Defender. A Champions team without Defender is like the Avengers without Captain America.

Even Bendis wasn't that stupid (almost, but not quite).

[Vorsch]

Quantum as she was the best designed of the old team, a demi brick energy projector with attitude.

[fredrik_nilsson]

The changes I would make wouldn't revolve around membership so much as point totals and builds, but that's another thread entirely, I think.
Please continue! Since we're talking about updating the team, why not update the current once?


If I were going to pick a Champions team it would have member archetypes that my players were not likely to choose [that way both teams can have some degree of individuality]. From the 43 superheroes currently published I'd choose:

Dr. Silverback - Leader and scientist extraordinaire.
Amphibian - A water character not around an ocean is interesting.
Megaera - I have a weakness for female bricks.
Sapphire - The easy-going big sister of the group.
MeteorMan III - You always need a legacy character.
Ironclad - Alien brick opens up the stars to the team.

I'd not use Defender, Kinetik, or Nighthawk due to the fact that those are popular archetypes that players would probably choose.
You got a point there, but if I were to run a Champions campaign I would remove (the would go independent or into the reserve) those heroes that were to close to the PCs.

I thought about adding Star*Guard instead of Deuce, but in honor of Galactic Champions I couldn't. In general, it wasn't a good choice to make this a poll. The 10 choices limit were a bigger hinder than I thought it would be.

The biggest problem I have with the current line-up is the feeling of "a little bit of this, and a little bit of that".

Nighthawk and Ironclad feels DC, Defender and Sapphire feels Marvel, and finally Witchcraft feels Sabrina (with evil relatives). If I’d been in charge I would have picked a team that felt more on the same “level”. To over-emphasize it:

The JLA wannabes
Ironclad (Superman, the man of steel)
Kinetik (the Flash)
Nebula (Hawk-girl)
Star*Guard (Green Lantern)
Thalya (Wonder Woman)

The Avenger wannabes
All-American (Capt. America)
Arachne (Spider-Woman)
Bulldozer (Luke Cage)
Defender (Iron-Man)
Raaktor (Wolverine)

The X-Men wannabes
Chain-Lightning (Cyclops)
Deuce (Shadowcat)
Dr. Silverback (Beast)
El Picardo (Nightcrawler)
Scimitar (Wolverine)

I’m fully aware of the risks of making the homage part so obvious, and I’m also aware of that these characters aren’t all 350-pointers (or even heroes).

The point with all this is that I’d preferred a Champions line-up that felt more like they were heading in the same direction.

[Sketchpad]

Personally, I don't think there's a problem with crossing comic company ideas ... but I do think that the current CU is a bit weak and could use some serious shots in the arm :)

[Kristopher]

Please continue! Since we're talking about updating the team, why not update the current once?

There's a disconnect between the two roles the Champions play in the setting of the same name.

Role#1) Example Team, made up of Example Man and his Example Friends.

Role#2) Exemplar Heroes, the cream of the crop, shown facing off with Dr Destroyer and other ultra-menaces who could easily kill them all if they actually faced off at their published levels.

The two roles need to be seperated. Are the Champions the Example, or the Exemplar?

[fredrik_nilsson]

I think that's the whole point though. The CU is a Marvel/DC homage world. You can't just have a Marvel team or a DC team. I believe what DOJ was trying to show was how these characters can all mesh into a single universe. If you separate them by comic company you're just saying they can't co-exist. I think they can.
I'm not saying that they can't co-exist, I'm just saying that they have so different motivations that I find it hard to see why they are a group. Look at my previous examples:

JLA act on a galactic scale when they act as a team. On their own they can save a planet.

The Avenger act more or less on JLA scale, even if I personally think they are a few levels below JLA.

The X-Men saves cities and occasionaly countries. As individuals they never work on a higher level that the city scale.

On what level is the Champions supposed to work?

[OddHat]

On what level is the Champions supposed to work?

"There never was any ghost in the creepy amusement park! It was old Mister Wigelsworth!"

"And I would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for you nosey Champions!"

[Chromatic]

Gosh, I didn't see _any_ of my choices:

Gargoyle
Rose
Flare
Marksman
Giant
Iceman


:D

[Kristopher]

The Champions' role right now is to be the saviors of Millennium City. Over time the team will grow to the point where it becomes the premiere superhero team in the CU. This is the same course that a PC team would normally take.

More accurately, it is a role that some PC teams might take, one of many possibilities.

[Kristopher]

On what level is the Champions supposed to work?

We don't really know. Their point totals and builds tell us one thing, and the villains they're shown fighting tells us something entirely different.

[Koshka]

Witchcraft
Buy off the underconfidence, have her grow into her power and gather more tools required to qualify for Archmage; one gift each from the worlds of Man, Good, Evil, and Legend.

Actually, according to Arcane Adversaries ... she's had those gifts since approximately 5-6 months before she was born. (Maybe longer, but aren't twins normally born a bit earlier than 9 months?)

My vote was for Defender. Running down the rest of the list:

Deuce: I haven't done enough with PSI to really get a feel for her, so I'm leaving her off the team for now.

Doctor Silverback: I'd leave him as a reserve member. If he builds enough gadgets to be able to charge into the front line without getting his fur singed, he'd be overlapping Defender's role. OTOH, if something ever happened to put James out of action for a while, I could easily see Dr. Silverback coming in as Defender's replacement.

Ironclad: while every team needs a brick, I would probably replace him with Steadfast from the MC8 and let Ironclad go home.

Kinetik: bring him in, he's a lot of fun to GM for.

Nighthawk: I'd probably shift him to reserve status, and let him specialize in more street-level adventures. Right now, he's the only team member with no CvK, and I can't help but think that's going to cause conflicts in the future.

Nightwind: first off, the rest of the team would have to rack up some serious XP to keep this from being "Nightwind and his Amazing Friends". Even if we balance out the points, I don't see Nightwind as a team player.

Sapphire: I'd be happier with her if she was a bit more mature. Let's shift her to reserve status while she gets her priorities straight.

Thalya: with a little point surgery, I think she'd fit in as a full member. It could cause problems for her down the line, though -- if Defender 3000 ever found out she knew the first Defender, you know Jack's gonna pump her for everything she ever knew about James IV :) . (My reading of her writeup in GC is that she doesn't know the original Defender, but has met members of the Harmon family.)

Witchcraft: Keep her, get her self-esteem up, and personally I'd hook her up with Defender ;)

[fredrik_nilsson]

Thalya: with a little point surgery, I think she'd fit in as a full member. It could cause problems for her down the line, though -- if Defender 3000 ever found out she knew the first Defender, you know Jack's gonna pump her for everything she ever knew about James IV :) . (My reading of her writeup in GC is that she doesn't know the original Defender, but has met members of the Harmon family.)
It says ancestor, so you can read it anyway you want. :thumbup: