Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

[Black Lotus]

All right, another simple question. I've been ignoring this until now, but I figured I'd bring it up and see what everyone else thought about it.

Ambidexterity is a 1- to 3-point Talent that offsets the default -3 penalty for using an off-hand to do ANYTHING -- attack, use a skill, make a Characteristic roll with your off hand (for example, a righty grabbing a ledge with his left hand to catch a fall). This is useful in and of itself, of course.

But let's consider Two-Weapon Fighting. If you purchase both Ambidexterity (at full 3-point strength) and Two-Weapon Fighting, some of the utility of Ambidexterity (or Two-Weapon Fighting, take your pick) is lost -- that is, the fact that Ambidexterity already negates the -3 penalty for using your off hand to attack, which is one of the benefits of Two-Weapon Fighting (or vice versa). My idea is to give a 1-Character point rebate when purchasing Two-Weapon Fighting if the character already has Ambidexterity at its highest level.

Too crunchy? Too anal?

Well, that's why I started a post here for your feedback! ;)

[Zed-F]

How often do you really make use of ambidexterity anyway? You don't need it to sweep, rapid fire, or MPA for two attacks at no penalty for off-handedness. My copy of FREd says it costs 3 points per level or 9 points to remove the penalty entirely, which is way too much. They may have reduced the cost in 5ER though. I'd say go ahead and give the rebate.

[Black Lotus]

I'm pretty sure it's 1 point for +1, 2 points for +2, and 3 points to reduce off-hand penalties entirely for Ambidexterity.

Yeah, a 1-point rebate sounds good.

Well, Ambidexterity CAN be useful (for say, disarming a trap with one hand while simultaneously picking a lock, which I would allow if it made dramatic sense -- though I'd still apply some sort of penalty to both actions, just not the extra -3 to the off hand). It's good for a number of other things, as well (remember The Princess Bride)? ;)

[ghost-angel]

No, Ambidexterity is 3pts/level.. Full Ambidexterity is 9 points. I don't have Revised so I can't point to that page reference, so here's the FREd reference: pg62.

Two Weapon fighting allows you to ignore Penalties when, AND ONLY WHEN, wielding the two defined weapons at once (hand-to-hand or ranged). If you have only one of those on hand you either use your Good Hand or suffer a penalty for your Off hand. If you good hand is impaired preventing you from Dual Wielding then you incur Off Hand penalties as normal.

Ambidexterity, by contrast, allows you to counteract penalties for your offhand at all times. If your Good Hand is blown off or impaired you can still use a weapon/attack in your Off Hand with no penalty. Though while this eliminates the Off Hand penalties you still incur the two-attack penalty if you do that.

Also, there is the intent behind the two. Two Weapon fighting is primarily aimed at Heroic Campaigns while Ambidexterity tends to have slightly more universal application.

The usefulness of either is entirely in gameplay however, if you never had impaired limbs then likely you'll never incur off hand penalties. If dual wielding weapons doesn't fit genre then you'll likely never see it in that game.

[Lord Mhoram]

No, Ambidexterity is 3pts/level.. Full Ambidexterity is 9 points. I don't have Revised so I can't point to that page reference, so here's the FREd reference: pg62.

Just because I can.... :)
5ER page 87.

[prestidigitator]

If a character buys full Ambidexterity I don't require them to buy Two-Weapon Fighting at all. They can make a straight purchase of the the CSLs with Sweep that form the rest of the Two-Weapon Fighting mechanics. As an exception to the rule that Limitations can only be bought on 5-point CSLs and above, I allow a -1/4 Limitation: "Only When Using Multiple Weapons in the Sweep" (this brings the cost of +2 with Sweep down from 4 to 3 points). Note that if a -1/4 Limitation were taken on the combination of full Ambidexterity and +2 CSLs with Sweep (9+4 = 13 points), it would come to a Real Cost of 10, which is exactly the cost of Two-Weapon Fighting.

[Black Lotus]

If a character buys full Ambidexterity I don't require them to buy Two-Weapon Fighting at all. They can make a straight purchase of the the CSLs with Sweep that form the rest of the Two-Weapon Fighting mechanics. As an exception to the rule that Limitations can only be bought on 5-point CSLs and above, I allow a -1/4 Limitation: "Only When Using Multiple Weapons in the Sweep" (this brings the cost of +2 with Sweep down from 4 to 3 points). Note that if a -1/4 Limitation were taken on the combination of full Ambidexterity and +2 CSLs with Sweep (9+4 = 13 points), it would come to a Real Cost of 10, which is exactly the cost of Two-Weapon Fighting.

Ah, but Ambidexterity applies to all actions performed with the off-hand, not just attacks (which is where that missing -1/4 Limitation comes from, I suppose).

Also, taking CSL doesn't QUITE live up to Two-Weapon Fighting. For one thing, TW Fighting covers either all Ranged or all HTH attacks. That's at least, what, two 5-point CSLs just for the +2 OCV to all ranged or HTH? A 3-point CSL only covers a "tight group" of related attacks (aka Pistols, Karate). That's a bit better than Two Weapon Fighting (which only negates the first -2 OCV modifier on the second attack, while with the CSLs you get (essentially) an extra +2 OCV on your first attack, to boot). Also, CSLs don't cover the "flat -2 to DCV instead of halving DCV" while using Sweep or Rapid Fire provided by TW Fighting.

Not quite the same, as far as I can tell. I guess you CAN build TW Fighting around a pre-existing Ambideterity, but it seems impossible to match its effects (or cost) exactly.

[Greg]

2-weapon fighting is built using ambidexterity so you'd probably need to reverse engineer it a bit to refund some points. On the other hand, 2-weapon fighting is better than straight ambidexterity and sweep PSLs because even if you miss with your main weapon you'd still be able to follow-up with your off-hand one. You're also not at half DCV.

[sbarron]

Well, Ambidexterity CAN be useful (for say, disarming a trap with one hand while simultaneously picking a lock, which I would allow if it made dramatic sense -- though I'd still apply some sort of penalty to both actions, just not the extra -3 to the off hand). It's good for a number of other things, as well (remember The Princess Bride)? ;)Neither Inigo Montoya nor Westley had ambidexterity. As you will recall, both were better with their dominate hand than they were with their off hand. So unless they purchased levels as (-0) Only when using dominate hand, they were clearly not ambidextrous. ;)

[Vanguard]

FYI, Ambidexterity doesn't allow you to make multiple attacks in the same phase. Just lets you use your off hand at no penalty if/when you do attack.

Two-Weapon Fighting allows you to make, essentially, 2 attacks in one phase.

[Black Lotus]

FYI, Ambidexterity doesn't allow you to make multiple attacks in the same phase. Just lets you use your off hand at no penalty if/when you do attack.

Two-Weapon Fighting allows you to make, essentially, 2 attacks in one phase.

Well, actually, the rules allow for you to use two weapons to attack simultaneously. It falls under the "using multiple Powers to attack" category -- when holding two similar or identical weapons, one in each hand. I forget where that is in FREd, but it is there -- and a lot of the leeway on that is left to the GM's discretion.

[Black Lotus]

Neither Inigo Montoya nor Westley had ambidexterity. As you will recall, both were better with their dominate hand than they were with their off hand. So unless they purchased levels as (-0) Only when using dominate hand, they were clearly not ambidextrous. ;)


I wasn't assuming they had full Ambidexterity; maybe +1 or +2. While they were better with their dominant hands, they were also quite good with their off-hands. I was using it more as an example of how it could be useful than anything else (I might give a small bonus to OCV if a player character suddenly changes hands on his opponent).

[NuSoardGraphite]

This was one of the first questions brought up after the release of the 5th edition.

In general, Two Weapon Fighting is included for those GM's who don't normally use Sweep or Rapid Fire in their games, but don't mind a character with specialized training to have this skill/ability.

For those GM's who do use Sweep and Rapid Fire, characters with Ambidexterity don't really need to purchase Two Weapon Fighting...just 2pt Combat Skill Levels to remove the penalty for multiple attacks...though characters who don't have Ambidexterity could purchase Two Weapon Fighting as normal.

[Onyxclaw]

it all depends on the concept you want for your character honestly.

The only character I have built with two weapon fighting (posted on the boards as Ekatrina) also had rapid attack and plenty of csls. (not to mention power claws, find weakness, and a dex roll activated damage reduction)

Her kilrathis esq design wasn't supposed to be ambidextrous for the most part, but she was supposed to be an efficient fighter.

If you want your character to be both, I don't see a problem with taking both. The overlap really doesn't really shotself much at all. I mean, TWF doesn't let you do anythign but attack and sweep at no penalty for using both hands, and ambidex would give you the option to use either hand at any time, but would not give you much of an edge in battle. if you want to credit back a point, go ahead. But I'm not sure it's neccisary.

[ghost-angel]

it all depends on the concept you want for your character honestly.

This is the ultimate answer here.

I have a character who is ambidextrous, they are a sniper and are able to shoot equally well with either hand. But they never have, and never will, wield two weapons at once. This character has Ambidexterity.

I have a duelist who uses a Rapier and Main Gauche in combat, having specifically trained with both and their balance in combat partially relies on having a weapon in each hand. their just not an effective fight with a rapier in their left hand and nothing else. This character has Two Weapon Fighting.

Conceptually the characters have the right Skill/Talent, mechanics wise there is a difference. But mechanics should not dictate how a character is built any more than it absolutely has to.

[prestidigitator]

Ah, but Ambidexterity applies to all actions performed with the off-hand, not just attacks (which is where that missing -1/4 Limitation comes from, I suppose).

Also, taking CSL doesn't QUITE live up to Two-Weapon Fighting. For one thing, TW Fighting covers either all Ranged or all HTH attacks. That's at least, what, two 5-point CSLs just for the +2 OCV to all ranged or HTH? A 3-point CSL only covers a "tight group" of related attacks (aka Pistols, Karate). That's a bit better than Two Weapon Fighting (which only negates the first -2 OCV modifier on the second attack, while with the CSLs you get (essentially) an extra +2 OCV on your first attack, to boot). Also, CSLs don't cover the "flat -2 to DCV instead of halving DCV" while using Sweep or Rapid Fire provided by TW Fighting.

Not quite the same, as far as I can tell. I guess you CAN build TW Fighting around a pre-existing Ambideterity, but it seems impossible to match its effects (or cost) exactly.
"Even in campaigns that don't use the Rapid Fire and/or Sweep Optional Combat Maneuvers, GMs should allow characters to use these Maneuvers when they use Two-Weapon Fighting" (5ER p. 73). So you are indeed using one of those maneuvers. The OCV bonus doesn't have to be bought for all HTH or Ranged combat. They can be bought for the Sweep or Rapid Fire maneuver, which is only a 2-point CSL.

As for the reduction of the 1/2 DCV penalty to the flat -2 one, I don't like this. There is no standard way to eliminate or reduce a halving of DCV in the system; we are instead forced to do things like buy doubled DCV CSLs with Limitations for, "Only When ...." This needs to be fixed in general. For now, I would really have preferred this aspect of Two-Weapon Fighting to have remained optional, as it was before Revised. In any case, there should be some provision for the same effect by characters who use the straight Sweep or Rapid Fire Maneuvers. Perhaps something like, "if a character uses all different Powers or weapons for the attacks in the Rapid Fire/Sweep, the penalty may be reduced from 1/2 DCV to a flat -2 DCV at the GM's option."

[Black Lotus]

"Even in campaigns that don't use the Rapid Fire and/or Sweep Optional Combat Maneuvers, GMs should allow characters to use these Maneuvers when they use Two-Weapon Fighting" (5ER p. 73). So you are indeed using one of those maneuvers. The OCV bonus doesn't have to be bought for all HTH or Ranged combat. They can be bought for the Sweep or Rapid Fire maneuver, which is only a 2-point CSL.

You can use Two-Weapon Fighting without having to also use Rapid Fire or Sweep. You'll only be able to attack once with each weapon, though, naturally.

[Vanguard]

Well, actually, the rules allow for you to use two weapons to attack simultaneously. It falls under the "using multiple Powers to attack" category -- when holding two similar or identical weapons, one in each hand. I forget where that is in FREd, but it is there -- and a lot of the leeway on that is left to the GM's discretion.

Ah-ha. I knew something like that would come back and haunt me. :) I forgot all about the multiple power attack that 5th added.

[prestidigitator]

You can use Two-Weapon Fighting without having to also use Rapid Fire or Sweep. You'll only be able to attack once with each weapon, though, naturally.
I'll have to add to my quote, I see:

Two-Weapon Fighting is the ability to use the Combat Maneuvers Rapid Fire or Sweep (see pages 396, 397), combined with a limited form of the Talent Ambidexterity, in an improved manner. It provides the following benefits:

-- even in campaigns that don't use the Rapid Fire and/or Sweep Optional Combat Maneuvers, GMs should allow characters to use those Maneuvers when the use Two-Weapon Fighting

-- in campaigns that allow all characters to use the Rapid Fire and/or Sweep Optional Combat Maneuvers, a character using Two-Weapon Fighting only suffers a -2 DCV....
So no you cannot use Two-Weapon Fighting without having to also use Rapid Fire or Sweep. Two-Weapon Fighting is, by its very nature, a form of one of those Maneuvers.

[Black Lotus]

I'll have to add to my quote, I see:

So no you cannot use Two-Weapon Fighting without having to also use Rapid Fire or Sweep. Two-Weapon Fighting is, by its very nature, a form of one of those Maneuvers.

You're wrong. Any character with two similar or identical weapons, one in each hand, may attack with both of them simultaneously, as a single attack action. For example, someone holding two pistols may attack with both of them, without needing Two-Weapon Fighting or Ambidexterity (though they would help, and of course you'll still suffer a -3 off hand penalty). Any character can do this (at the GMs discretion -- Heroic campaigns differ from Supers campaigns), and you can use Two-Weapon Fighting when making two simultaneous attacks, to offset the normal -3 OCV penalty for your off hand.

In fact, many different Powers can be used simultaneously. When I rediscover which page of 5ER covers this, I'll let you know.

EDIT: Go back and read Vanguard's last post; he knows what I'm talking about.

[ghost-angel]

You're wrong. Any character with two similar or identical weapons, one in each hand, may attack with both of them simultaneously, as a single attack action. For example, someone holding two pistols may attack with both of them, without needing Two-Weapon Fighting or Ambidexterity (though they would help, and of course you'll still suffer a -3 off hand penalty). Any character can do this (at the GMs discretion -- Heroic campaigns differ from Supers campaigns), and you can use Two-Weapon Fighting when making two simultaneous attacks, to offset the normal -3 OCV penalty for your off hand.

In fact, many different Powers can be used simultaneously. When I rediscover which page of 5ER covers this, I'll let you know.

EDIT: Go back and read Vanguard's last post; he knows what I'm talking about.

Two Weapon fighting explicitely states that it allows a character to use Rapid Fire or Sweep without the first penalty of either.

if you are using 2-WpnFtg with Ranged Attacks you are doing a Rapid Fire Maneuver without the penalties incured for the two shots. If you are using 2-WpnFtg with Hand-to-Hand attacks you are doing a Sweep Maneuver without the penalities incured for the two attacks.

In either case you may choose the same target or different targets for each of the two attacks. For Ranged the targets must be in a 180 degree arc of your line of fire and for Hand-to-Hand the targets must be in adjacent hexes.

Multiple Power Attacks, on the other hand, allow you to make two attacks ON THE SAME TARGET ONLY and the two attacks have to use the same kind of attack roll (Ranged or Hand-To-Hand) and any CSLs you have must be able to apply to BOTH attacks or they can't be used.

Two-Weapon fighting is a little more flexible in application than a simple Multiple Power Attack sine you may spread the attacks out.

[Black Lotus]

Two Weapon fighting explicitely states that it allows a character to use Rapid Fire or Sweep without the first penalty of either.

if you are using 2-WpnFtg with Ranged Attacks you are doing a Rapid Fire Maneuver without the penalties incured for the two shots. If you are using 2-WpnFtg with Hand-to-Hand attacks you are doing a Sweep Maneuver without the penalities incured for the two attacks.

In either case you may choose the same target or different targets for each of the two attacks. For Ranged the targets must be in a 180 degree arc of your line of fire and for Hand-to-Hand the targets must be in adjacent hexes.

Multiple Power Attacks, on the other hand, allow you to make two attacks ON THE SAME TARGET ONLY and the two attacks have to use the same kind of attack roll (Ranged or Hand-To-Hand) and any CSLs you have must be able to apply to BOTH attacks or they can't be used.

Two-Weapon fighting is a little more flexible in application than a simple Multiple Power Attack sine you may spread the attacks out.

All I'm saying is that Two-Weapon Fighting isn't a form of Sweep or Rapid Fire, because its bonuses will also apply when using a Multiple Power Attack -- OR a single attack! If you attack with your off hand just once -- one attack with one weapon -- Two Weapon Fighting still gives you that +3 to your off hand penalty when attacking.

If it were simply a form of Sweep or Rapid Fire, the +3 off hand bonus would only apply when using Sweep or Rapid Fire, and as it is written, it applies at all times. After all, if TWF makes it easier to attack with a weapon in each hand, it also makes it easier to attack with a single weapon in the off-hand.

[ghost-angel]

All I'm saying is that Two-Weapon Fighting isn't a form of Sweep or Rapid Fire, because its bonuses will also apply when using a Multiple Power Attack -- OR a single attack! If you attack with your off hand just once -- one attack with one weapon -- Two Weapon Fighting still gives you that +3 to your off hand penalty when attacking.

If it were simply a form of Sweep or Rapid Fire, the +3 off hand bonus would only apply when using Sweep or Rapid Fire, and as it is written, it applies at all times. After all, if TWF makes it easier to attack with a weapon in each hand, it also makes it easier to attack with a single weapon in the off-hand.

That's not how I'm reading it... I hate to quote the book but...

"Two Weapon Fighting is the ability to use the Combat Maneuvers Rapid Fire or Sweep, combinded with a limited form of the Ambidexterity, in an improved manner."

Take out the comma per English Grammar rules you get:
"Two Weapon Fighting is the ability to use the Combat Maneuvers Rapid Fire or Sweep in an improved manner."

Seems pretty clear to me - you are making two or more attacks in a phase in which you are using Two Weapon Fighting - you don't get to cancel the Off-Hand Penalty by just weilding the second weapon - you have to use it.

Off-Hand Penalties apply to a person without Ambidexterity regardless of what they hold in their second hand UNLESS they have Two-Weapon Fighting AND use both weapons in one phase to attack.

So no, you can' negate the OHP of a second weapon by purchasing TWP and holding two weapons - you actually have to use the maneuver.

Unless the wording has changed drastically in 5ER. in which case you can ignore me.

[Black Lotus]

That's not how I'm reading it... I hate to quote the book but...

"Two Weapon Fighting is the ability to use the Combat Maneuvers Rapid Fire or Sweep, combinded with a limited form of the Ambidexterity, in an improved manner."

Take out the comma per English Grammar rules you get:
"Two Weapon Fighting is the ability to use the Combat Maneuvers Rapid Fire or Sweep in an improved manner."

Seems pretty clear to me - you are making two or more attacks in a phase in which you are using Two Weapon Fighting - you don't get to cancel the Off-Hand Penalty by just weilding the second weapon - you have to use it.

Off-Hand Penalties apply to a person without Ambidexterity regardless of what they hold in their second hand UNLESS they have Two-Weapon Fighting AND use both weapons in one phase to attack.

So no, you can' negate the OHP of a second weapon by purchasing TWP and holding two weapons - you actually have to use the maneuver.

Unless the wording has changed drastically in 5ER. in which case you can ignore me.

The logic I'm using is simple: attacking with a single weapon in your off-hand is less effective than than attacking with a weapon in each hand, assuming you have Two-Weapon Fighting. Why, then, would you reassign the +3 off-hand bonus to the off hand when a character attacks with just one hand?
Wouldn't make any sense. I don't know how you'd do it, but I'm sure I'd allow a character with Two-Weapon Fighting to make single attacks with his off hand at no off-hand penalty.

Otherwise, he could just put a knife in the other hand a not use it. You see where I'm going with this? A "persistent" bonus of Two-Weapon Fighting, logically, is that you never have to deal with the -3 off-hand penalty when using your off hand to attack. (With either ranged or HTH weapons, or both, depending on what was bought).

To put it yet another way, if a character can learn to use his good hand and his off-hand together with equal effectiveness -- which is hard -- he's already, by default, learned to use his off hand to attack as effectively as he can with his good hand, regardless of whether he's attacking with both of them or not.

Also, I'm not sure if that's 5ER's wording or not; I'll have to check later.

[Onyxclaw]

the special effect of sweeping or using rapid fire with the two weapon fighting rule is that you use both weapons. I "sweep" him with my double blade attack by using both of my blades rather than one of my blades twice.

Since most weapons are considered "equipment" they also don't usually fall under a multiple power attack.

[Vanguard]

In our gaming group we use both Sweep, Rapid Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiple Power Attacks.

We have thought that it odd that Two-Weapon Fighting does pretty much the samething as Rapid and Sweep but we also figure that TWF was meant for Heroic level games and not Superheroic level.

That being said, if you have the Rapid Skill as well as TWF then, in our games, you can basically attack 4 times in one phase (sounds overpowering but you've used 15 points to do it so we think it's justified). You get the first 2 attacks because of TWF (of course, you have to have a weapon in each hand and attack with them both. You can't just hold a dagger in one hand and attack twice with your rapier) and the second 2 because of Rapid.
As for the Off-hand penalty, you only get that if you plan on attacking with a weapon that is in your off hand. As above, if you've got a dagger and rapier, and you only want to attack with the rapier, you're not going to get the off-hand penalty because you're not doing anything with the other weapon (although, I suppose you could justify it by saying you have to compensate of having something in your other hand and it's throwing off your groove).

I apologize if this doesn't make any sense or doesn't even come close to what's being discussed. I'll try and do better next time. :)

EDIT: Good point Onyx. If you're playing Heroic level then you get to do "multiple power attackes" with your equipment thanks to TWF.

[Black Lotus]

the special effect of sweeping or using rapid fire with the two weapon fighting rule is that you use both weapons. I "sweep" him with my double blade attack by using both of my blades rather than one of my blades twice.

Since most weapons are considered "equipment" they also don't usually fall under a multiple power attack.

Powers with the OAF and Real Weapon Limitations may still be used as a Multiple Power Attack, at the GM's discretion. That section is complicated -- I had to reread it several times -- but you can indeed make a Multiple Power Attack with, for example, two shortswords or two SMGs.

[ghost-angel]

Unfortunately, Black Lotus, we're at an impass. I don't as yet have 5ER to use it to back up what is said in FREd, so my side of things is done - and pretty clear.

My personal belief is you 1) have Misinterpreted the rules and 2) have flawed logic.

But don't let my opinion stop your game (I seriously doubt you're going to lose any sleep over what I have to say). It's your game - play it however it works for you, that's the beauty of the system.

[Black Lotus]

Unfortunately, Black Lotus, we're at an impass. I don't as yet have 5ER to use it to back up what is said in FREd, so my side of things is done - and pretty clear.

My personal belief is you 1) have Misinterpreted the rules and 2) have flawed logic.

But don't let my opinion stop your game (I seriously doubt you're going to lose any sleep over what I have to say). It's your game - play it however it works for you, that's the beauty of the system.

No, I believe you arrived at your conclusions logically. We both did; but the rules in that area are ambiguous enough to arrive at more than one logical conclusion.

It's "impasse" by the way. ;)

[ghost-angel]

No, I believe you arrived at your conclusions logically. We both did; but the rules in that area are ambiguous enough to arrive at more than one logical conclusion.

It's "impasse" by the way. ;)

I asked Steve some things ... we'll see what he has to say, if anything.

[Black Lotus]

I asked Steve some things ... we'll see what he has to say, if anything.

Good questions. I doubt he'll answer the third one, though. :hush:

[ghost-angel]

I don't have 5ER, so can't read the page he's referencing for Question 1.

Question 2 seems clear - you can't use TWF to make a single attack with your offhand and offset the -3OCV, you acutally have to make a TWF attack, which is what I've been saying all along. TWF does not allow you to hold two weapons and make an attack with one, it allows you to hold two weapons and make an attack with two weapons.

You're right - he didn't answer 3, but I had to try.

[prestidigitator]

To put it yet another way, if a character can learn to use his good hand and his off-hand together with equal effectiveness -- which is hard -- he's already, by default, learned to use his off hand to attack as effectively as he can with his good hand, regardless of whether he's attacking with both of them or not.
I disagree. Learning to use both hands in coordination is far different from learning to use the off hand autonomously for a task. That's just the way the brain works. It is like saying that anyone who can sing can talk; there are many with speech impediments for whom that one doesn't hold true. Besides, remember that the system is divorced from SFX (this is less true in the Skill area, but can still be applied to some degree). The SFX of Two-Weapon Fighting could easily be that the character positions or fakes with one weapon while attacking with the other, thus making up for any penalties (s)he may otherwise have due to using the off hand, etc.

My quote above is directly from 5ER, and reads almost exactly the same as ghost-angel's.

By the way, this has nothing to do with Multiple Power Attacks. There is never an off hand penalty for a Multiple Power Attack, even if one of the powers used in the attack happens to come from a weapon used in the off hand. This is completely independent of whether the attack has Two-Weapon Fighting or not.

[Vanguard]

Question 2 seems clear - you can't use TWF to make a single attack with your offhand and offset the -3OCV, you acutally have to make a TWF attack, which is what I've been saying all along. TWF does not allow you to hold two weapons and make an attack with one, it allows you to hold two weapons and make an attack with two weapons.


So, let me see if I understand this. If I've got two weapons in hand, and the TWF skill. I *have* to attack with both weapons. I can't just strike with my dominate hand? If that's the case, it makes absolutely no sense. I've watch many a TWF attack with one hand while holding the other back. Now, if this is saying that I can't just attack with my off hand, then that makes sense.

[Onyxclaw]

So, let me see if I understand this. If I've got two weapons in hand, and the TWF skill. I *have* to attack with both weapons. I can't just strike with my dominate hand? If that's the case, it makes absolutely no sense. I've watch many a TWF attack with one hand while holding the other back. Now, if this is saying that I can't just attack with my off hand, then that makes sense.

it's saying you can't just attack with your offhand and take no penalty. You can attack just with your offhand and still take a penalty.

you can most definately attack once just with your domonate hand.

But if you choose to attack with both at once, you take no penalties for "sweeping" and no offhand penalties.

[ghost-angel]

So, let me see if I understand this. If I've got two weapons in hand, and the TWF skill. I *have* to attack with both weapons. I can't just strike with my dominate hand? If that's the case, it makes absolutely no sense. I've watch many a TWF attack with one hand while holding the other back. Now, if this is saying that I can't just attack with my off hand, then that makes sense.

Aye, sorry. What Onyxclaw said... I should have remained clear that I was refering to off-hand attacks and not dominant-hand attacks.

[Vanguard]

Ok, thanks guys. That makes sense. Was having a hard time wrapping my wittle brain around that. :)

[Black Lotus]

it's saying you can't just attack with your offhand and take no penalty. You can attack just with your offhand and still take a penalty.

you can most definately attack once just with your domonate hand.

But if you choose to attack with both at once, you take no penalties for "sweeping" and no offhand penalties.

Well, taking into account Steve Long's answer and the discussion that's gone on in this thread, it seems that Two-Weapon Fighting's benefits only apply when using Sweep or Rapid Fire. That's the official stance, anyway, and from a purely rules-oriented point of view, I'd have to agree.

Personally, I'm going to allow my players with Two-Weapon Fighting to make single attacks with their off hand and make Multiple Power Attacks with two weapons without taking the -3 penalty to their off hand. This is mainly due to the fact that I know from personal martial experience that you must be able to use your off hand effectively before you can even begin to use both hands in concert, and secondarily due to the fact that it makes no sense to me that a character can perform a difficult task easily, but cannot perform a component of that difficult task individually easily -- i.e., attacking with only the off hand.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Personally, I'm going to allow my players with Two-Weapon Fighting to make single attacks with their off hand and make Multiple Power Attacks with two weapons without taking the -3 penalty to their off hand. This is mainly due to the fact that I know from personal martial experience that you must be able to use your off hand effectively before you can even begin to use both hands in concert, and secondarily due to the fact that it makes no sense to me that a character can perform a difficult task easily, but cannot perform a component of that difficult task individually easily -- i.e., attacking with only the off hand.

Hmmm...

While I never got into the weapons training, when I took Choi Li Fut Kung Fu, they made us learn every technique from two angles...a right stance and a left stance, so that you learn to use your "off-hand" (which ever that may be) as efficiently (or nearly so) as your dominant hand. Even complicated techniques (such as one where you grab an opponents incoming attack and counter attack with several differing strikes) were learned in "reverse", so there is no disadvantage no matter what direction the enemy approaches you from.

Coming from that particular angle, I was thinking that Penalty Skill Levels could be used to offset Off-hand penalties applied to specific attacks, but would not offset the penalties for non-combat applications.
As an example, if one wanted Martial Ambidexterity (no off-hand penalty when using Martial Maneuvers) it would cost 6 pts for +3 PSL vs Off-hand for "X" Martial Style.
That seems completely reasonable to me, since the full form of Ambidexterity is simply +3 3pt PSL's that apply to all attacks (and skill rolls)
Having said that, I now understand the costing of Two Weapon Fighting. It is simply +3 PSL vs Off-hand Penalties for 6pts (2pt, tight group, wielding two weapons, limited to melee or ranged only) and +2 CSL with Sweep or Rapid Fire maneuver for 4pts (2pt +OCV only levels of course) which removes the -2 OCV penalty associated with the second attack in a Sweep or Rapid fire maneuver. Total cost 10pts.
Thus, Two Weapon Fighting is specifically meant for use with Sweep and Rapid Fire, not Multiple Power Attack. Of course, one can always use Mutiple Power Attack to simulate a Two Weapon attack, but one does not need Two Weapon Fighting to pull this off.

So, to answer the age-old question (well, as old as the 5th edition anyway) Why would a character with Ambidexterity need to buy Two Weapon Fighting? The answer is they don't need to; they've already purchased half of the equation with Ambidexterity; in order to complete build, all they need to do is purchase two 2pt Combat Skill Levels with Sweep or Rapid Fire and they're good to go! Two Weapon Combat. Of course, the player him/herself simply limits using it with twin weapons at once, rather than for using a single weapon multiple times. Its a concept thing.

[zornwil]

I would just stress a character with Ambidexterity in a campaign where Sweep and Rapid Fire are disallowed might want 2-Weapon Fighting specifically to "force" the GM to allow him to use thoe maneuvers. I think at that point the degree to which the GM discounts 2WF for its overlap with Ambidexterity should represent the degree to which he doesn't believe it is destabilizing or too much of a pain for other legitimate reasons in his game. That part can't be calculated except by the GM in question.