The Quality Of Palladium Books

[fredrik_nilsson]

I'm wondering if anyone of you still plays any Palladium games? I used to play some of them (mainly TMNT), but now I'ved ended that. Palladium's books always give me the impression of being really cool ideas, but the layout is made as if by amateurs. Is the quality level still as low?

The reason I ask is that I had the intention of buying a few books, but if the quality level haven't evolved I might as well buy something else.

[Greg]

Other than the last couple books they put out they're exactly the same as ever. The newest books like Splicers and Ultimate Rifts have the setting in the first part of the book and all the rules in the back so at least stuff won't be scattered. Having said that all their books are still fun to read.

[teh bunneh]

Check this thread and click on the links. Bill Coffin (who used to be line developer for Palladium) talks about his experiences with them. He even mentions why the layout quality is often so poor.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26180&highlight=simbieda

I really used to love Palladium, back in the PFRPG and TMNT days. Fond memories.

Bill.

[Lord Liaden]

I've also enjoyed a lot of the cool, fun ideas in Palladium books, particularly the Rifts series. Layout can be variable, but I found it generally serviceable, and rarely bad enough to outright bother me. I do find the seemingly endless series of splatbooks for Rifts annoying, particularly as Palladium insists on introducing a truckload of new tech in just about every one; really not what interests me about the setting.

What does bother me the most is the Palladium game system(s): the rules don't feel logical or intuitive, some concepts like MegaDamage come across as awkward, and it's difficult to tell how various character types balance against each other without playing them. (Many of them don't balance, of course.) System is actually the complaint I hear the most often about Pal games. Along those lines, if anyone hasn't seen this and would be interested, if you follow the link in my signature, below, you'll find HERO System conversions for a few Palladium lines: a great deal for Rifts, almost as much for Robotech, and a bit for Heroes Unlimited.

[csyphrett]

I have two HU mail games active, Fredrik. The last few books that I have bought, the setting is in the front, rules in the middle, villians and setting stuff in the back.

You'll have to inspect one to see if it suits you before you buy it.
CES

[Enforcer84]

See my thread on Random Characters...

I adore HU. Not necessarily for the actual game but for the fun of making characters and fidlding with it. I've often felt I could do a considerably better job than they did. :D

However, I still hold a place in my heart for the system and Hate that support for it dried up after some very nice books a few years ago. I wish they had released Hardware Unlimited.

[Cancer]

Palladium is an expensive metal, just under $200 an ounce last I checked. Out of my price range. I go for the standard wood-pulp books now.

[Xiawarr]

Between reading this (and the embedded threads from Bill et al) and from what I have read on RPG.net. This just reinforces my decision not to buy any more Palladium stuff. This is sad, because I enjoyed TMNT, After the Bomb and Nightbane. But I refuse to give money to someone who treats the people who have helped make him so successful so badly.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Now I've decided to not buy anymore Palladium books (at least not in the near future). Take a look at this thread:

Why Kevin does not read the boards (http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?t=28127)

Palladium seems to really have missed a tiny detail. We might quarrel over stupid rules, we might be fanboys, and we might be many others things too, but above all we are the buyers. They can produce all the books they like, but unless they listen to us (the buyers) they might be in for a sad surprise.

[tomd1969]

Bah.

Who cares? Stay around here to the Hero Games boards, where the actual creators of the game we love actually care enough about our opinions to actually read the hgdb. Heck, they'll actually show up in the NGD occasionally--which says to me that they actually *like* us, because they're actually willing to hang with us when they're not gaming. :) ...and that's *despite* MightyBec. ;)

If rumors are true, Siembieda has done everything he can to distance himself from his "fans", including (if I remember the rumors correctly) threatening lawsuits against fans who cared enough to put up fansites. After I heard that, I decided that I refuse to buy any Palladium supplements--and decided that it was too bad that I couldn't get my money back for the three that I do have.

And I haven't cared enough to check into the rumors--Palladium's house system is a second-rate system from a third-rate company. Heck, I'd even take the *** system (with all of its lumps) over Palladium any day.

Bah, I say. :mad:

[fredrik_nilsson]

Who cares? Stay around here to the Hero Games boards, where the actual creators of the game we love actually care enough about our opinions to actually read the hgdb. Heck, they'll actually show up in the NGD occasionally--which says to me that they actually *like* us, because they're actually willing to hang with us when they're not gaming. :) ...and that's *despite* MightyBec. ;)
At a risk of sounding fanboyish, I think that Hero stuff is among the best there is. I have no intention of switching system entirely, but Hero Games is a small company. There are many areas that Hero Games doesn't cover, so unless you want to write it up you have to buy books from other companies.

Palladium's ideas are among the better in the RPG industry, but for some reason they work better as ideas than as Palladium books. In other words Palladium books are great fountains of inspiration, but try to avoid doing it as they did it. :confused:


If rumors are true, Siembieda has done everything he can to distance himself from his "fans", including (if I remember the rumors correctly) threatening lawsuits against fans who cared enough to put up fansites. After I heard that, I decided that I refuse to buy any Palladium supplements--and decided that it was too bad that I couldn't get my money back for the three that I do have.
Personally I think K.S. has been in this business too long, so he's lost touch with the market. When Palladium was new on the market, it was quite innovative. However, that was over 20 years ago. Just because their stuff rocked 20 years, doesn't mean it still does (even if it could do that).


And I haven't cared enough to check into the rumors--Palladium's house system is a second-rate system from a third-rate company. Heck, I'd even take the *** system (with all of its lumps) over Palladium any day.

Bah, I say. :mad:
That isn't just a rumor, just take a look at their RULES OF THE BOARD (http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?t=15314). Looking over the rules you see that you can't copy parts of Palladium's stuff on its own board, which means that if I'd done this (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34742) on the Palladium forum I might have been banned.

It's quite funny really. How are you supposed to talk about the rules if you can't mention the rules (as they are written). As it is now you have to rephrase it enough so that it can't be seen as a crime against the copyright rules, but it must still be close enough to the original that everybody knows what you mean.

At a normal company that wouldn't have been a problem. You could just mention "stuff x at page y", but with Palladium's editting and layout you have now idea where to find "stuff x at page y" between different printing of the same edition of a book.

[Enforcer84]

Hey you guys are missing out! The eleventh Rifts: Rhode Island Book is due any day now and it's going to kick so much ***!

[csyphrett]

You can post rules as rules. What you can't do is scan a whole page and post it with exact text.

Conversions using rules aren't allowed either. So Susano's adaptions of characters (as an example) wouldn't be allowed in their forums.

CES

[Susano]

You can post rules as rules. What you can't do is scan a whole page and post it with exact text.

Conversions using rules aren't allowed either. So Susano's adaptions of characters (as an example) wouldn't be allowed in their forums.

Interesting. I know for a fact my adaptations had helped introduce new people to HERO and made them fans of the system (case in point? My work on Dragonball Z).

Anyway, while full of interesting idea, the few RIFTS/Palladium books I won seem to be poorly organized. Especially MYSTIC CHINA, which has no real logic to its layout.

[csyphrett]

I believe this is because of the McFarlane suit. The license does say you can create your own material on the internet or for non profit like any other game.

The forums are restricted to non conversions because they are directly related to the company.

CES

[Nadrakas]

I haven't bought anything from Palladium since '97 (Rifts: New West) and I won't until the problems with their books, releases & system get fixed.

(Shrug)

IMHO the Palladium System has grown more unwieldy and unbalanced with time (The Bigger, Badder Syndrome which is so prevalent with each new Rifts books is a good example of this). Add to this the consistently late releases, rehashing of artwork & other material, and the haphazard way that books are layed out and it just gets frustrating to run a game.

As someone alluded to above (tomd1969 I believe)...I would rather run a game with pretty much any other system than Palladium....even Tunnels & Trolls.


Nadrakas...

[fredrik_nilsson]

You can post rules as rules. What you can't do is scan a whole page and post it with exact text.

Conversions using rules aren't allowed either. So Susano's adaptions of characters (as an example) wouldn't be allowed in their forums.

CES
Interesting. I know for a fact my adaptations had helped introduce new people to HERO and made them fans of the system (case in point? My work on Dragonball Z).

Anyway, while full of interesting idea, the few RIFTS/Palladium books I won seem to be poorly organized. Especially MYSTIC CHINA, which has no real logic to its layout.
I know that Susano's work made me buy both Ninja Hero and Feng Shui. Mystic China were among the books I had planned to buy, but as it stands now I might spend the money on more Feng Shui stuff.


I believe this is because of the McFarlane suit. The license does say you can create your own material on the internet or for non profit like any other game.
The McFarlane suit made them have to do stuff to the Nightspawn/Nightbane (a minor line for the company). The same (if not even on a bigger scale) happend to White Wolf with their Aeon/Trinity line (due to MTV's Aeon Flux). Still, White Wolf didn't go hostile (unless you count the Sony thing with the Underworld movie).


The forums are restricted to non conversions because they are directly related to the company.
Yeah, the forum is directly connected to the company. My question to you is, doesn't the same realtion exist between this forum and DOJ? As far as I know nothing have happend to Steve Jackson, Guardians of Order, or DOJ. I think we would be well aware of such a thing. None of these companies would allow anything remotely similar to what's happening right now (conversions, rule tweaks, and so on).


Hey you guys are missing out! The eleventh Rifts: Rhode Island Book is due any day now and it's going to kick so much ***!
Probably true, but the Palladium board will miss out on stuff like Rifts: Bikini Bottom (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19664).

[Susano]

I know that Susano's work made me buy both Ninja Hero and Feng Shui. Mystic China were among the books I had planned to buy, but as it stands now I might spend the money on more Feng Shui stuff.

MYSTIC CHINA has value -- if only for the names, glossary, weapons, notes on alchemy, and celestial calligraphy. The character classes and martial arts packages are somewhat absurd (to say the least).

[fredrik_nilsson]

MYSTIC CHINA has value -- if only for the names, glossary, weapons, notes on alchemy, and celestial calligraphy. The character classes and martial arts packages are somewhat absurd (to say the least).
I've seen it, the layout made my eyes hurt (no joke). The concept is great, the artist seems to know what he's doing, in general everything is great, still the book lacks IT. I don't own the book, I've just browsed it, so I might change my mind after a deeper look.

[Susano]

I've seen it, the layout made my eyes hurt (no joke). The concept is great, the artist seems to know what he's doing, in general everything is great, still the book lacks IT. I don't own the book, I've just browsed it, so I might change my mind after a deeper look.

Th layout is a total disaster. It has no logic, rhyme, or reason.

[teh bunneh]

In one of those articles from Bill Coffin, he explains why Palladium's layout is always so bad. Apparently, Mr. Simbieda does all the layout by hand -- not using a computer, he just pastes paragraphs out on a board to send to the printers (sort of like they did it back in the stone age). I understand he's something of a computer-phobe. If he makes a mistake and has to fix multiple pages, he doesn't bother because it's too much work. That's also why you'll find that so many of Palladium's alphabetized lists... aren't. If he decides to change the name of something, he leaves the paragraph where it is. What was once an "Alpha Cannon" and got changed to "Trimegestrius Gun" is still in the "A" part of the list. That's apparently also why so much art gets recycled. :thumbdown:

Bill.

[AlHazred]

Palladium always struck me as a herd of interesting ideas in search of a unified theme/look. Some of the creative thought that went into the Palladium Fantasy setting are great; some not so much (I'm looking at the village maps here). And the system was like someone's homebrew houserules cobbled onto the D&D game.

However, I do own a supplement or two, and I always pick up the free copies of The Rifter I see laying around at Cons. I'm still looking for one particular book. The only thing I remember about it is, it had a scenario in the back where the characters discover an ancient winecellar that still contains magical wines. I remember it had a chart for you to roll on to see what you got.

[csyphrett]

I run two mail games with it. It's easy to use, it's easy to build with. Like any system, it has things that people don't like.

As far as how they put the books together, and why certain policies are in place, so forth, I can't tell you.

I am not surprised to hear that Kevin Siembieda hates to use computers, or is technophobic, but I am surprised that he plans everything by hand. It seems to me that he does have people that can do this for him.
CES

[Enforcer84]

MYSTIC CHINA has value -- if only for the names, glossary, weapons, notes on alchemy, and celestial calligraphy. The character classes and martial arts packages are somewhat absurd (to say the least).
Which mystic China? I think there are three now...




and I am interested, I like HU and the Martial Arts Packages, the rest I can take or leave, but I eagerly gather the Superhuman Powers, and Martial Arts books, and Rifter issues that I can.

[Susano]

Which mystic China? I think there are three now...


The first one, I think. The generic book, that's not about the RIFTS world.

[memorax300]

I am not surprised to hear that Kevin Siembieda hates to use computers, or is technophobic, but I am surprised that he plans everything by hand. It seems to me that he does have people that can do this for him.
CES


People he does have. Though he lets no one to help him because he is a micromanager. Almost the stereotype of one. A person like that would rather see a bad product released then actually get help to do a good one.

[fredrik_nilsson]

People he does have. Though he lets no one to help him because he is a micromanager. Almost the stereotype of one. A person like that would rather see a bad product released then actually get help to do a good one.
Steve have said that with the current trend in the RPG market every customer is important. Is Palladium really big enough to handle the loss of customers? I mean on this forum there has already been complains about the layout, and according to me those complains are on books that are in "layout heaven" compared to what Palladium produce.

[AlHazred]

Steve have said that with the current trend in the RPG market every customer is important. Is Palladium really big enough to handle the loss of customers? I mean on this forum there has already been complains about the layout, and according to me those complains are on books that are in "layout heaven" compared to what Palladium produce.
Palladium has a hardcore, diehard fanbase. When I was at GenCon last year, I heard a developer from one of the d20 third-party companies openly envy Mr. Siembieda his fans, because they will stick with it come Hell or high water. Many of them are grognards who've been playing the same Palladium game for twenty years; the increasing power levels in the books just manages to keep even with their own characters. I've talked to some of the hardest of the hardcore fanatics, who aren't capable of admitting that any other game designer has even the slightest ability to write a creative thought, and they're scary. They're scarier than any Hero Zombie I've ever met. They travel 1500 miles to go to GenCon so that they can play Palladium games with the same twenty other people they see every year there, and to pick up on the Con goodies, and that's it. The rest of the Con-goers might as well be cardboard standups.

Hell, I envy Mr. Siembieda his fanbase and I'm not even a game designer...

[fredrik_nilsson]

Palladium has a hardcore, diehard fanbase. When I was at GenCon last year, I heard a developer from one of the d20 third-party companies openly envy Mr. Siembieda his fans, because they will stick with it come Hell or high water. Many of them are grognards who've been playing the same Palladium game for twenty years
That might be the thing! I'm 31 yrs. old, and I started when I was ten. Let's say that the guy that has played for twenty years started around high school, or at the age of twenty. That would make him old enough today to have a family, work, house, and so on. He might only be able to game a few times per year. For that person there is no idea to bother with learning a new system, when most of your ideas can be achieved with the current system? The person might only buy a few books per year, just to keep the current campaign full with fresh ideas. There aren't that many systems that has been around for that amount of time, and even if I hate the layout of Palladium books they are top level when it comes to inspiration.


I've talked to some of the hardest of the hardcore fanatics, who aren't capable of admitting that any other game designer has even the slightest ability to write a creative thought, and they're scary. They're scarier than any Hero Zombie I've ever met. They travel 1500 miles to go to GenCon so that they can play Palladium games with the same twenty other people they see every year there, and to pick up on the Con goodies, and that's it.
System fanatics of any kind is scary. When you think that one system is the key to having fun, you've missed the point. This is just a game. Some games work for some people, that's it.

[Captain Obvious]

That might be the thing! I'm 31 yrs. old, and I started when I was ten. Let's say that the guy that has played for twenty years started around high school, or at the age of twenty. That would make him old enough today to have a family, work, house, and so on. He might only be able to game a few times per year. For that person there is no idea to bother with learning a new system, when most of your ideas can be achieved with the current system?

Thank God I got to Hero early on, then!



System fanatics of any kind is scary.

Uhh...<cough cough>...:o

[csyphrett]

Thank God I got to Hero early on, then!



Uhh...<cough cough>...:o

LOL.
CES

[fredrik_nilsson]

System fanatics of any kind is scary. When you think that one system is the key to having fun, you've missed the point. This is just a game. Some games work for some people, that's it.Uhh...<cough cough>...:o
Don’t look at me I just like to rant. I have an opposite thread running at the Palladium board.
:whistle:

[Enforcer84]

The first one, I think. The generic book, that's not about the RIFTS world.
Got that. ...okay, Mystic China. That was for Ninjas & Superspies. I was confusing it with RIFTS: China...

[Enforcer84]

Mystic China also has a lot of art by Vince Martin. He's my fave artist for Palladium. Naturally I stopped seeing his stuff there years ago...

[Susano]

Mystic China also has a lot of art by Vince Martin. He's my fave artist for Palladium. Naturally I stopped seeing his stuff there years ago...

Is he the guy who signed his stuff in such away it looked like an extended "W"?

[Enforcer84]

Is he the guy who signed his stuff in such away it looked like an extended "W"?
Ayup.

[Susano]

Ayup.

Yeah, his art for MYSTIC CHINA rocked!

[fredrik_nilsson]

What are the quality of the Weapon Compendiums? Steve recommended at least one of them in Dark Champions.

[csyphrett]

They're okay. A lot of palladium's weapons tech is interchangeable for the most part. An eb is an eb is an eb, but it does have some nice technical illustrations of the weapons being used.

There will be some outdated information on who's using what in the world today.
CES