Duplication Advancement

[Agent 537]

Our group is working up a House Rule for Duplication that I'd like to run by you all to see what you think. Here's some relevant campaign details:

For starting characters, the Active Point cap for non-attack powers (of which we consider Duplication to be) is 75 points. Basic points are 250 + 100.

We have a PC who can split into 5 bodies. Taking the 75 point max, and subtracting the +10 needed to get 4 extra bodies, we find that the Base form is restricted to 325 points (5 x 65 = 325). Taking from that 325 the 75, we have a Base form who has 250 points of other Powers, CHAs, etc. The 4 duplicates, in order to be identical to the base, are also comprised of 250 points, even tho the 65 points would allow them to be 325 points. In that case, however, the duplicates would each have 75 points of stuff that the Base form did not have.

Looking thru FREd and the FAQ doesn't seem to provide a solid solution to the problem. Duplication may well have to be rebuilt from the ground up someday, but that's not what we're trying to do here today.

Our proposed House Rule: since the supporting of the CONCEPT calls for the duplicates to be identical to the base form MINUS the Duplication power itself, the Duplicates are then OWED points (the 65 points, equalling 325, were paid, but only 50, equalling 250, were actually used). As the Base form advances, purchasing or buying off things with experience points, no points need be spent for the Duplicates' identical advancement UNTIL they reach the level of points for which they paid in the first place. Using the above example, the Duplicates would be allowed to advance another 75 points worth without spending another XP (they of course would keep pace with the Base form), until they reach 325 points. Thereafter, they would spend 1 point and advance 5 points, as per other established rules.

It may not be a perfect solution, and it certainly addresses only part of 'the problem' that Duplication proposes. Hell, it may not even be workable. What I welcome is your opinion on this. Have you thought of doing something like this? Did it work out okay? Is it just a bad idea, and if so, why? Lemme hear from you guys!

EDIT: It snuck up on me! I didn't realize that this was my 100th post! Yay for a 3-digit monkey!

[Ellis]

Wow, no posts. I did a "search", since the FAQ here is Unhelpful about what you need. The closest I could find is a Duplication is Broken thread.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=885&highlight=duplication

This thread is also not what you need, since the House Rule isn't going to suddenly decide Shapeshift or Summon is the Power.

(Hey! You can use Transform: Self to many selves.) :D

[Agent 537]

Wow. 63 views, 1 reply post. Thank you, Ellis.

It seems as if Duplication is one of the Hero System stepchildren. It has a gray area that doesn't quite go away, with either tighter rules explanations or mathematical manipulation. And no one seems to want to touch it with a ten foot pole. Or so I'm surmising from the lack of response, which I'm attributing to the likely possibility that no one really has a Duplicator in their game(s), or no one wants to think too hard about Duplication.

Ah well.

[Monolith]

To be honest, I just do not think most of us care about Duplification. I have been playing for 16 years and have never had a player take the power. Duplification is just one of those powers that only a small percentage of people choose and so we do not really think about how those rules work.

Personally, I do not have a problem with the rules for Duplification as written. The fact that the original pays the points for the Duplicates, and the duplicates do not get to use those points does not bother me at all. If you think about it, a 350 point character with a 75 point Duplification power (allowing for 2 exact duplicates) is really only a 275 point character, and the duplicates, because they do not have the Duplification power, are also only 275 points. So the main character is only paying 15 extra points. That does not seem unreasonable to me for a power which allows you to make 3 of yourself.

[TaxiMan]

I don't see anything wrong with what you propose. I also don't see the problem with Duplication you seem to think exists, so I might not be a good judge!

Maybe you're overconstraining the mathmatical problem of matching the base form to the duplicates? You don't HAVE to spend 75 points unless you want to. If you do, then the rest of your discussion makes perfect sense - you've pre-paid for more costly duplicates so they can add powers for "free" for a while. I don't see where a house rule comes in.

If you want to optimize your character, then paying 75 points for Duplication isn't the answer. Solve the following:

350 - (x+10) = 5 * x

Once you know "x", you know how many other points you could spend on all your forms. In this case, x=56.7 (round to 57). So if you pay 67 points for Duplication (that includes the +10) you get five characters all of 283 points each. Of course, the base form is 350 since it pays the additional 67 for the power.

The first two xp can pump up everyone at once, due to the rounding. After that, add 5xp to each character for every 6xp earned. The extra xp goes into Duplication so they all even out.

Is this helpful, or did I completely miss the problem?

[zornwil]

We had a duplicator a long time ago, only one I've had as a PC. The way it was done at the time was it cost 1/3 of the total character cost minus the cost of duplication itself, but the way I did it that did not count points from disadvantages. The duplicate was NOT owed that portion of points that constituted the duplication power, nor would I agree with doing that even today as the cost of duplication in theory is really paid by each duplicate in a theoretical way to me.

[Agent 537]

We actually came to an agreement that didn't end up including the house rule that I proposed. We finally decided it was a balance issue, and that the dupes not having 'the full points they paid for' was a fair trade-off for the character having, in essence, 5 PCs to play with. The dupes will not get 'free advancement'.

For the record, the duplicator is my character in an online game. I have not had the guts to actually play more than 3 of me at the same time. Any more, and my attention span might well short out altogether. :D

[Zaratustra]

I still think Duplication should be a subset of Summon.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Zaratustra
I still think Duplication should be a subset of Summon.

Well, what about Follower?

Anyway not a bad idea. But I think that all of these powers/perk (Follower, Summon, Duplication, Multiform) now conforming to a 5 points/construct method indicates an underlying power of sorts. Folding Duplication into Summon is sort of like folding HKA, RKA, Energy Blast, et al into Attack in terms of the path it goes down. I'm not against it - in fact I find it intrigueing. But it boils down to how "toolbooky" to make HERO versus how accessible for immediate constructs.