How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

[zornwil]

I'm referring to how powers have to be visible to 3 sense groups and that IPE (just as a single example) is invisible to "one targeting sense" and other such instances.

I personally go more by "feel". I like the 3 sense group rule and I think it is absolutely correct. And I use that as the bar to go by. But I don't really give individual power constructs that are submitted that much attention beyond ensuring that they are fairly obvious, and as discusssed in a thread on IPE I go more by whether it falls under that level of effectiveness rather than strictly one targeting sense per se.

Just wondering if people perform a fairly strict accountability or what. Not suggesting anything regarding any better ways to do it (though perhaps some people do some cool things I never thought of, hence the thread).

[TheEmerged]

I'm from the "borderline fascist" school when it comes to the 3-sense rule; I enforce it even for movement powers, density increase, armor and force fields (which isn't the canon rules). However, in many cases I allow them to be bought to "effectively invisible" for +1/4 whenever I feel it's appropriate.

Of course, the reason for this is that the PC's are quite careful on sense issues -- one has a perpetual darkness field, and the other three all have alternate targetting senses. So I *have* to pay a little bit more attention than most :rolleyes:

Why would 3-senses matter for movement powers? Because someone using a power should be easier to detect than someone that isn't, in my opinion. If Sapphire and Nightduck are both in a darkness field, and Sapphire is hovering while Nightduck is standing still, Sapphire's active flight (even just the portion needed to hover) should make her easier to hear.

[pinecone]

I don't give it a large amount of attention...I more of less say...It has to be detectable, rather than using some strict proscription....I agree that safires flight is detectable, but I don't much worry How unless someone trys to make it into an advantage...at that point I expect them to pay fpr the advantage....so I seldom worry about it at all.....

[austenandrews]

I don't think about visibility in terms of rules. I think about SFX. Unless someone has bought IPE or Visible, it's just a common sense call.

[Black Lotus]

I absolutely use the 3 Sense Rule at all times. I use common sense to decide which senses can be used to detect which Power, according to its SFX. I do this with every Power, not just attack Powers.

[prestidigitator]

I use, "lazy initialization." That is, usually I just describe the SFX. When something comes up that makes it matter (unusual/non-targeting senses are used, someone wants to make a Power partially or completely visible, there is an obvious effect on Stealth, etc.) I will make a judgement call, talk to the owning player, and decide the full visibility of the power (or at least as much as is required for the situation). I will then continue to use this definition in the future when it matters.

[OddHat]

It's story/comcept driven for me. In the books, the Luck powers already mostly ignore it, Armor ignores it, DI mostly ignores it, etc.

If a character wants to get an in-play advantage from his invisible power effects (my invisible force tentacles allow me to strike my foe without him seeing the attack coming", "my flight helps me sneak up on him"), I make him pay points. If it's just a matter of "my force field is my super hard skin" and similar SFX issues with no game effect, I see no good reason to charge for it.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

i use it all the time. in fact it was once the sticking point when i tried to make luck with "costs END"

[Dr. Anomaly]

I think it would be most accurate to say that I'm aware of it, but don't make a player (or an NPC, for that matter) absolutely lay out for each power which 3 sense groups can detect it. Usually I go by obvious common sense (most attack powers you can see and/or hear, for example) and then only worry about the specifics if there's a particular reason to; even then, a quick default usually gets the job done (is the power based on electricity, charged particles, or something like that? The the Radio group should do the trick for the 3rd sense group...). In the event that's not enough, I'll pause, give it a moment's though, and speak with the player if necessary.

My main aims are to keep it in mind, but not let it slow down the flow of play if I can possibly avoid it.

[zornwil]

Thanks for all the answers! And on a Saturday, expected less feedback. Just got done with our game a bit ago, we finished around 11:30 but then talked for a while, we didn't even break for dinner.

[Mister E]

I'd probably make Superman's player pay the +1 Advantage to make his Flight's SFX Fully Invisible.

If there was some kind of semi-canon/general Board concensus/quasi-official ruling that figured, "for these Powers, and Powers with these Advantages, IPE should cost less"... I'd use it.

SFX is such an important, (sometimes forgotten), element of the game...

[Trebuchet]

We're pretty much in Dr. Anomaly's school on this issue. To us the sfx determines the visibility, not the other way around. If a guy is flying because he has wings, then the "Visibility" means you can see and hear his wings flap, not that you also detect some mythical "Flight Energy." OTOH, if the lightning blast from Thunderbird goes off, so does the bright flash of that lightning and rumble of thunder. We use common sense as our basis, not the strict "Three senses." If it's incumbent upon the story for T'bird's lightning to also cause radio static, fine. But only if there is some reason, and in general "internal" Powers (Desolidification, Density Increase, etc.) are far less visible than "external" Powers like Energy Blast or Force Wall. Armor or Damage Reduction use no END and hence are invisible by default, at least until the target is hit. (And even then, there is no real way for a character to know if a target's seeming invulnerability comes from scads of Armor and Stun or 75% Damage Reduction unless the GM sees fit to give clues or the defense has an obvious sfx.)

Personally I think the "three senses" rule is an overcompensation for a single Power, Invisibility. Is a bad guy using Invisibility going to be detectable just because he's using a Power, or simply because he's only invisible to Normal Sight and IR and your powered armor guy has UV? Either way, he's hosed. :D

[ghost-angel]

We're very casual about it in our games, when it becomes important we bring it up.

I have one character where IPE is exrtemely important to them - Invisibility is their power, as is making things invisible with them. And one character with an alternate targeting sense (actually, sight is really their secondary sense since the alternate operates at 360deg). In those two cases Visibility becomes a slightly more prominent issue.

Beyond that it's cool, but has little actual game effect. If a guy shoots fire from his eyeballs all the players tend to assume it smells, looks and sounds like fire is being shot from his eyeballs.

[prestidigitator]

We're pretty much in Dr. Anomaly's school on this issue.
Is that the royal, "We?" :)

[PhilFleischmann]

I find common sense to be much more useful and reliable than the arbitrary "3 sense group" rule. Yes, powers must be detectable if they aren't bought with IPE, but I wish the rulebook had just said that instead. The 3-sense rule isn't always reliable anyway. You could have an EB that emits UV, Radio waves, and ultra-low sound. That's three sense groups, but normal people can't detect it at all!

To me, it's a guideline, not a rule. An attack power can always be felt by the target, and can usually be seen or heard or both. A movement power can always be seen and felt, and usually heard. Don't forget that Running is a power, and Stealth can be used to hide it from detection, without IPE. In general, I usually say that non-attack powers must be visible to at least 1 sense group (but are often visible to more based on common sense).

For those of you who strictly apply the 3-sense rule, do you give a Limitation if a power is visible to *more* than three senses?


I'd probably make Superman's player pay the +1 Advantage to make his Flight's SFX Fully Invisible.
Really? This came up on the other thread, but I'm not sure I made my point clear. Can you tell me, what benefit does Superman get that makes it worth paying double for his flight?

[ghost-angel]

I find common sense to be much more useful and reliable than the arbitrary "3 sense group" rule. Yes, powers must be detectable if they aren't bought with IPE, but I wish the rulebook had just said that instead. The 3-sense rule isn't always reliable anyway. You could have an EB that emits UV, Radio waves, and ultra-low sound. That's three sense groups, but normal people can't detect it at all!

That's three "Senses" not three "Sense Groups" very very big difference.

UV Sight is part of the Sight Group. It is not a Group itself.

[PhilFleischmann]

That's three "Senses" not three "Sense Groups" very very big difference.

UV Sight is part of the Sight Group. It is not a Group itself.
Yes. I know that, but "visible to three sense groups" doesn't mean that *every* sense within that group can detect the power. You can see my ice ray with normal vision, but not with IR, for example.

[ghost-angel]

Yes. I know that, but "visible to three sense groups" doesn't mean that *every* sense within that group can detect the power. You can see my ice ray with normal vision, but not with IR, for example.

Actually, I would say that "visible to three sense groups" means just that - "Visible to three Sense Groups" which if it's for Sight means: Normal Sight, UV Sight, IR Sight...

Why wouldn't an ice-beam be visible to IR? I'm not at home, and don't have my book, but if the rules say Three Sense Groups that's what it means, otherwise the rules would say Three Senses.

[Mister E]

Really? This came up on the other thread, but I'm not sure I made my point clear. Can you tell me, what benefit does Superman get that makes it worth paying double for his flight?I'm going to have to retract my statement. Upon further research, I've discovered that Movement Powers have special rules/interpretations concerning SFX, which are quite a bit different that all other Powers.

Page 123 5er:


Movement Powers have perceivable special effects, just like any other Power. In most cases this means others can see the character move (he's running, flying, hovering, teleporting, or what have you), hear his movement (as a rush of wind, footsteps on the ground, a sound effect that accompanies Teleportation, and so forth), and "feel" the movement if the character moves near them or collides with them. The exact special effects of the Power is up to the player, or course. Some forms on Flight might be visible because they leave a glowing energy trail, for example, or the stench of brimstone may accompany a demon's Teleportation.Page 124 5er:


Invisible Power Effects: Character should not normally purchase IPE for the Sight Group for Movement Powers, since the fact that a character has moved from one point to another by some means will be easily perceivable. However, a character could purchase it to, for example, make a Movement Power silent.Now, if I bought IPE for the Sight Group on an EB, and blew a hole in a wall with it, anyone in the room is going to see the hole in the wall, and nobody at the gaming table is going to argue that the Visible SFX of the EB were not still invisible.

However, Steve Long (or whoever) has made it clear that the simple act of moving should be considered a Visible SFX of Movement Powers. He's given room to let the Player fool around with adding other Visible SFX if the Player wants to, but it doesn't seem like it is required.

Personally, I think this is all pretty lame, and it bugs me that the game designers themselves don't seem to be able to grasp the difference between the Effects of a Power, and the SFX of a Power... but whatever.

The end result is: You only have to add a +1/2 Advantage to a Movement Power to make its SFX Fully Invisible; and any Visible SFX you add to a Movement Power (beyond the ridiculously obvious fact that you have moved) is pure fluff.

I stand corrected. :rolleyes:


~ Mister E

P.S. I don't care what the book says, I'm not going to let "collisions" with a Character using a Movement Power, be considered a tactile SFX of the Movement Power. That is going too far. :mad:

[PhilFleischmann]

My munchkiny example DOES use three sense groups: Sight, Hearing, and Radio. Ice is invisible to IR because it doesn't give off heat.


Now, if I bought IPE for the Sight Group on an EB, and blew a hole in a wall with it, anyone in the room is going to see the hole in the wall, and nobody at the gaming table is going to argue that the Visible SFX of the EB were not still invisible.
Yes, but nobody will know where the attack came from, which is the main purpose of IPE. A gun with a silencer and flash suppressor can be used to kill someone. Anyone can see the person is dead, and if they have super-hearing, can tell that his heart isn't beating. The gun is still IPE because it has the tactical advantage of keeping the wielder's location hidden.


Personally, I think this is all pretty lame, and it bugs me that the game designers themselves don't seem to be able to grasp the difference between the Effects of a Power, and the SFX of a Power... but whatever.
It has more to do with the difference between SFX and a difference which gives an advantage. Should a normal person have to buy IPE on his running because he doesn't leave a glowing energy trail behind him? You can see the person running, you can see Superman flying. Nothing is being hidden, therefore no IPE.


P.S. I don't care what the book says, I'm not going to let "collisions" with a Character using a Movement Power, be considered a tactile SFX of the Movement Power. That is going too far. :mad:
It isn't just collisions, it's also air movements which can be easily felt when there is movement near you. Have you ever been pulled over on a freeway? You can feel the air wake of every car that goes by.

[ghost-angel]

My munchkiny example DOES use three sense groups: Sight, Hearing, and Radio. Ice is invisible to IR because it doesn't give off heat.

Ah, but an Ice Beam would have a difference of tempurature to the surrounding ambient tempurature, thus rendering it black against what could possibly be blue or warmer - thus it is visible in the sense that you know there was something of a different heat pattern there.

Ergo - it is not invisible it IR, it just isn't warm. There is a big big difference. The only way to redner somethnig "Invisible to IR" is to make it the same temperature as the surrounding temperature. Like say Average Man's 'Room Temperature Beam.'

I'm sorry, but Three Sense Groups means just that as far as I'm concerned - there can be situations that would change that - deep in a cave where there is no UV Light to work with renders UV useless, Ice Man throwing Ice Beams around in a freeze makes IR unable to percieve them - but those are situational and not general use. normaly the Ice Beam is visible to IR.

[schir1964]

I'll guess I'll throw in my view and create some chaos. (8^D)

I pay attention to it intently at creation time and then deal with it appropriately in the campaign.

However, I also hold the strick definition of the rule to the letter to allow for some odd but common sense type decisions.

1) A Power that is "Visible" means, Visible To Sight Sense, Visisble To Hearing Sense, and Visible To A Sense in the Radio group (player's choice).
2) A Power that is "Invisible" means, Invisible To All Sense Groups.
3) A Power that is "Not Visible" means, Not Visible To Sight Sense Group, and/or Not Visible To Hearing Sense Group, and/or Not Visible To Radio Sense Group.

Therefore, Armor is not invisible, it is simply not Visible.
This allows for Armor to be seen or heard only as the SFX might suggest without requiring "Visible" per the definition.

- Christopher Mullins

[TheEmerged]

RE: Requiring players to define the groups. Actually, I bypass a lot of this with a few standards

1> Every non-mental power is visible to normal sight.
2> Except in VERY special cases, sense number two is normal sound
3> When in doubt, sense number three is mental
3a> If the defense is ED, sense number three should probably be Radio (as static if nothing else).
3b> If the defense is PD, sense number three could well be olfactory (sensing the sweat the physical exertion causes, for example)

[Mister E]

My munchkiny example DOES use three sense groups: Sight, Hearing, and Radio. Ice is invisible to IR because it doesn't give off heat.On the topic of Freeze-Rays and Infra-vision... I think it is reasonable to assume that a Freeze-Ray would be visible... but I think it is more realistic to rationalize that a Freeze-Ray is beyond the perceivable range of Infra-Vision, which is usually tuned to a very particular, and sensitive spectrum of the IR.


Yes, but nobody will know where the attack came from, which is the main purpose of IPE. A gun with a silencer and flash suppressor can be used to kill someone. Anyone can see the person is dead, and if they have super-hearing, can tell that his heart isn't beating. The gun is still IPE because it has the tactical advantage of keeping the wielder's location hidden.... and if you see a man flying around without any visual SFX, you wouldn't know how it was done, or the Origin of the Power, either. You would still see him flying (simular to seeing a hole in the wall, or a dead body) but you would have no idea what the SFX was, and thus, you would have no way of using the SFX of the Power against the Hero using Flight.

If a Hero has Fully Invisible on Flight, he could fly around all stealthy like, as if he wasn't using Flight at all. No cracks of rolling thunder... no nimbus of flashing electricity... no register of electrical activity on the Tri-corder. Whether or not this is a big deal in combat, depends on the creativity of you and your Players.

The business of the silencer on the gun, and the location of the shooter is a good argument... but it totally ignores the fact that the Character was hidden in the first place, and remained hidden after using the gun. A character with Invisible SFX on his Flight can be hidden before activating his Flight, and remain hidden afterwards, without the Flight Power giving away his position.

If a Character was in a room full of people, pointed an invisible (and silenced) gun at a person, and shot him dead. Everyone in the room, is going to know about it, and they are going to have very good suspicions as to who did the killing.


It has more to do with the difference between SFX and a difference which gives an advantage. Should a normal person have to buy IPE on his running because he doesn't leave a glowing energy trail behind him? You can see the person running, you can see Superman flying. Nothing is being hidden, therefore no IPE. Also a good question. So what is the special effect of a person running around? Muscles...Bones... nerves... that whole shebang... and this is totally visible to the observer. They see arms and legs moving... they see muscles flexing... they see joints bending.

When Superman is flying... what do you see? Nothing. You see his cape flap (which has confused every kid on the planet) ... a lot of times Superman will change the orientation of his posture or arm placement... but do these things really have anything to do with him flying? Not that I know of... I'm pretty sure Superman could fly in the fetal position, with his hands tied behind his back.

Can you identify what it is that causes Superman to fly, and counter it somehow... no. All you can do is attack the Flight Power directly somehow. Take the Human Torch, for intance... when he's flying around, you see the flames, you identify the SFX, and you reason that you might be able to stop him from flying if you soaked him down with a fire hose.


It isn't just collisions, it's also air movements which can be easily felt when there is movement near you. Have you ever been pulled over on a freeway? You can feel the air wake of every car that goes by. :confused: Tough one... except for the fact that the wind blowing off the cars was created by the Effect of the Power of Running through the medium of air in the atmosphere (which is an aspect of the environment), not by the SFX of the internal combustion engine, or the spinning of the tires. You can smell the exhaust. You can hear the engine. You can see the tires spinning. You know if you shoot out the tires, you'll stop the car from running.

Wind will always result from moving quickly through the medium of air, irregardless of the SFX. The fact that Superman generates wind when he flies fast, only clues you in to the fact that he exist on the material plane in an atmosphere.

The visibility/detectability of the SFX of all Powers (including Flight) can be somewhat important to the story and plot of a game. How important? I have no idea. What should their fractional Advantage cost be... I don't know.

The fact that we are even having this discussion is proof that the HERO designers did a poor job of explaining this particular aspect of the system, and failed themselves to be consistent in the rules, probably because they didn't understand the finer points of the concept of SFX... or they just didn't care. :(

[Mister E]

Ah, but an Ice Beam would have a difference of tempurature to the surrounding ambient tempurature, thus rendering it black against what could possibly be blue or warmer - thus it is visible in the sense that you know there was something of a different heat pattern there.

Ergo - it is not invisible it IR, it just isn't warm. There is a big big difference. The only way to redner somethnig "Invisible to IR" is to make it the same temperature as the surrounding temperature. Like say Average Man's 'Room Temperature Beam.'

I'm sorry, but Three Sense Groups means just that as far as I'm concerned - there can be situations that would change that - deep in a cave where there is no UV Light to work with renders UV useless, Ice Man throwing Ice Beams around in a freeze makes IR unable to percieve them - but those are situational and not general use. normaly the Ice Beam is visible to IR.This seems well thought out to me.

[Sean Waters]

I give almost no attention to the '3 senses' rule unless it becomes relevant which, by and large it doesn't in most games I play. Combining stealth and powers is the most likely scenario: you'll need to turn off the crackling, glowing force filed if you want to sneak up on the guard.

If you are attacked, you know who did it unless the power is invisible.

I'd suggest that, instead of having a 3 senses rule you have a +6 bonus to an opponents PER roll. You can stick that one one or more senses, but at least one has to be sight or hearing. That way you can have a +6 glowing force field or a +1 sight, +5 mutant detection force field (or +2 sight, +2 hearing +2 radio sense force field, or whatever). This specifies the senses and a relevant quantity too, which seems prefereable.

Of course all this assumes you actually think about it at some point: even most published characters leave you to assume which sesnses the powers trigger, so I figure it is not a major issue for most others either.

[Sean Waters]

...and to be honest, on a superhero battlefield, even pretty flashy powers may get lost in al the hubbub...

[Mister E]

I give almost no attention to the '3 senses' rule unless it becomes relevant which, by and large it doesn't in most games I play. Combining stealth and powers is the most likely scenario: you'll need to turn off the crackling, glowing force filed if you want to sneak up on the guard.

If you are attacked, you know who did it unless the power is invisible.

I'd suggest that, instead of having a 3 senses rule you have a +6 bonus to an opponents PER roll. You can stick that one one or more senses, but at least one has to be sight or hearing. That way you can have a +6 glowing force field or a +1 sight, +5 mutant detection force field (or +2 sight, +2 hearing +2 radio sense force field, or whatever). This specifies the senses and a relevant quantity too, which seems prefereable.

Of course all this assumes you actually think about it at some point: even most published characters leave you to assume which sesnses the powers trigger, so I figure it is not a major issue for most others either.Man... what a super idea. :celebrate:

What if the PER roll bonus was dependant on Active Points? ...say +1 per 5? That way, the biggest/fastest/strongest Powers will also be the loudest/brightest/stinkiest Powers.

[Sean Waters]

Man... what a super idea. :celebrate:

What if the PER roll bonus was dependant on Active Points? ...say +1 per 5? That way, the biggest/fastest/strongest Powers will also be the loudest/brightest/stinkiest Powers.

...and in a fit of mutual back slapping...I think that is a super idea too (although I might make it +1 per 10) :thumbup:

[ghost-angel]

I like Sean's idea - allows for the chaos of combat to obscure all the stuff flyign around.

And for all my blitering - we don't really pay attention the Sense Rule in our games either.

[Mister E]

...and in a fit of mutual back slapping...I think that is a super idea too (although I might make it +1 per 10) :thumbup:What about +1/10 for most Powers, and +1/5 for Attack Powers?

[PhilFleischmann]

On the topic of Freeze-Rays and Infra-vision... I think it is reasonable to assume that a Freeze-Ray would be visible... but I think it is more realistic to rationalize that a Freeze-Ray is beyond the perceivable range of Infra-Vision, which is usually tuned to a very particular, and sensitive spectrum of the IR.
Which was exactly my point: Just because it's visible to Normal Sight, doesn't mean it's visible to IR. Visible to a Sense Group doesn't mean it has to be visible to *every* Sense in the Group. If a Power is visible to IR, UV, and Normal Sight, that's three Senses, but only one Sense Group. Visible to IR, Radio, and Ultrasound is three Senses and three Sense Groups.


... and if you see a man flying around without any visual SFX, you wouldn't know how it was done, or the Origin of the Power, either.
...nor do I care how it was done, or what the Origin is. Visible doesn't mean you can see the mechanism behind the power. If a guy flies and leaves a shimmering rainbow in his wake, I still have no idea how he's flying. I see Cyclops' red eye beams, but I don't necessarily know that he's a mutant. For all I know, the visor is the weapon. That isn't what Visible/IPE is about.


If a Hero has Fully Invisible on Flight, he could fly around all stealthy like, as if he wasn't using Flight at all.... Whether or not this is a big deal in combat, depends on the creativity of you and your Players.
Stealthy Flyer: "Gee, I hope nobody does anything creative like *looking up*."


The business of the silencer on the gun, and the location of the shooter is a good argument... but it totally ignores the fact that the Character was hidden in the first place, and remained hidden after using the gun.
Not at all. The only reason he remains hidden, is *because* of the silencer. If everyone can hear the shot, they know approximately where it came from and what happened.


A character with Invisible SFX on his Flight can be hidden before activating his Flight, and remain hidden afterwards, without the Flight Power giving away his position.
It isn't the Flight power that gives away one's position, it's the fact that the character himself is visible. Nor is it the IPE on the flight that keeps his position hidden before and afterwards, it's the fact that he is hiding.


If a Character was in a room full of people, pointed an invisible (and silenced) gun at a person, and shot him dead. Everyone in the room, is going to know about it, and they are going to have very good suspicions as to who did the killing.
Yes, if he remains standing there with his arm outstretched and a gun in his hand, but that assumes that he sold back most of his 10 INT. If a guy wants to assassinate someone and not be detected, and has a gun with a silencer, he keeps the gun concealed under clothing, or the like, and after the shooting, hides or ditches the gun. The roomful of people will have no idea what happened, other than that the guy has been shot with a silenced gun. The shooter can easily hide the gun by the time the victim hits the floor. And it the time it takes for someone to look, see, and say, "He's dead! He was shot with a silenced gun!" the shooter can be out of the room or completely blended in with the crowd. IPE is supposed to get you something useful for that +1 Advantage.


I'm pretty sure Superman could fly in the fetal position, with his hands tied behind his back.
I'm pretty sure he can't.


Can you identify what it is that causes Superman to fly, and counter it somehow... no.
... and yes. Again, I don't really care what causes him to fly, any more than I have to know how a gun works to be able to hear which direction the shot came from. But I can still counter it with many different methods: Grab, Entangle, Drain/Suppress Flight, place an obstacle (possibly myself) in his path, etc.


Take the Human Torch, for intance... when he's flying around, you see the flames, you identify the SFX, and you reason that you might be able to stop him from flying if you soaked him down with a fire hose.
But that has nothing to do with the power's visibility. It's a function of the limitations of his EC or individual power construct.


:confused: Tough one... except for the fact that the wind blowing off the cars was created by the Effect of the Power of Running through the medium of air in the atmosphere (which is an aspect of the environment), not by the SFX of the internal combustion engine, or the spinning of the tires.
So what? The sound of the gun is created buy the Effect of the Power through the medium of air in the atmosphere. Torch's fire trail is just air in the atmosphere that's been heated to the point of glowing (i.e. fire).


Wind will always result from moving quickly through the medium of air, irregardless of the SFX.
Not necessarily. Comic book physics after all. You could buy IPE for the movement, I'm not saying you can't. I'm only asking what good does it do you? And is it worth the same price as it would be for attack powers? So far the only answer you've given is that maybe you can tell from the Torch's fire trail that he won't be able to fly if you hose him down. What about a flashy SFX that doesn't suggest an obvious counter? Like a guy that leaves behind a trail of potpouri when he flies?


The visibility/detectability of the SFX of all Powers (including Flight) can be somewhat important to the story and plot of a game. How important? I have no idea. What should their fractional Advantage cost be... I don't know.
And yet you still want to insist that Superman not flapping his arms or leaving a trail is worth a +1/2 - +1 Advantage. That seems like an awful lot to pay for an "I have no idea." When I buy Armor Piercing or Reduced END or NND, I know what I'm getting. When I buy IPE for an Attack Power, I know what I'm getting.

[Mister E]

What ever.:straight:

[Duke Bushido]

"Ack! Abstract Conception Man is flying around here somewhere! I'd know that taste anywhere......"

and the hunt begins........

Yeah, I've always thought that the '3 senses' rule served mostly to justify the IPE advantages and some of the more exotic senses. Like supers and super villains, one sort of needs the other to be practical.

And yes, I've always been bugged that the designers failed to 'properly' (go ahead; let 'em loose! :wink: ) separate 'effects' from 'special effects,' particularly with regard to movement and offensive powers. Granted, this has been a long-running issue for me, even before Steve took over. But with all the gallons of ink he used to add more rules and more government and such, I have to admit that I'm pretty disappointed that he left this pretty much alone..... I think that this is really a cruicial issue, and the concepts of 'effect' and 'special effect' are the very heart of how the HERO system works!

But I'm not too worried about it; most players can tell the difference, once they get the hang of it.

But I've _never_ enforced the 3-sense rule. I'm usually happy with 2 'normal' senses, and those tend to be sight and hearing for most folks. Movement powers especially: I just can't justify the 'smell of swimming' any better than the 'taste' of flight.

Now I _do_ require that powers be visible to two _normal_ senses. Partly, this is just for the drama (and it makes a nifty warning to civilians that they may want to not go that way.....) and partly to, much like the rules, encourage players to buy IPE, thus cheering all those players who bought 'detect x'. I also allow a limited IPE, which for half the price will drop one sense requirement. Seemed reasonable for Superman's flying, Batman's gliding, etc. Besides, who wants to taste Batman? heh heh heh...

I don't allow players to give me that hogwash "You can feel my blast when I hit you with it." Duh. That's what it's for; that's the 'effect' of that power. Now HOW does it hit me? Bright flash of ionized isotopes? Little lead pellets? Girl Scout Tour Bus falls from heaven?

Same with 'feeling the movethrough' or 'seeing the hole in the wall' or 'sufferning the knockback.'

In short, if it can be measured in dice, it's an _effect_, not a special effect. And I'm just not inclined to make my players wear strobe lights, play kazoos and spit on pedistrians while they fly. Just doesn't seem 'heroic.'

[ghost-angel]

Which was exactly my point: Just because it's visible to Normal Sight, doesn't mean it's visible to IR. Visible to a Sense Group doesn't mean it has to be visible to *every* Sense in the Group. If a Power is visible to IR, UV, and Normal Sight, that's three Senses, but only one Sense Group. Visible to IR, Radio, and Ultrasound is three Senses and three Sense Groups.

Actually, that's exactly what Sense Group should mean - All Senses In The Group.

but hey, do what you feel is good for your game. :straight:

[Sean Waters]

What about +1/10 for most Powers, and +1/5 for Attack Powers?

Hoorah! Storming idea. Mind you we still have the problem of what to do about IPE: you'd definitely need a cost diferential....OR....you could make IPE and adder: say +5 adder reduces the visibility by 2 - so non-attack powers will be half the cost to make invisible. Haven't done any cost examples yet, but it's a thought...

BTW, I was just looking through the book and we are also supposed to be defining a Point Of Origin for our powers. I kinda do this occasionally (he's got Eye-Beams: where do you think they come from?) and by default kinda assume it comes out of the hands if I haven't decided otherwise. This could really matter though, in certain situations: eye beams are pretty useless if you are wearing a c4 blindfold or have your hands tied behind you. Hell, it makes a world of difference to which limbs you immobilise when you grab an opponent.

Anyone playing this rule for all it is worth?

[ghost-angel]

Anyone playing this rule for all it is worth?

Yes, this one gets much closer attention in our games.

[Duke Bushido]

I was just looking through the book and we are also supposed to be defining a Point Of Origin for our powers.
{snip}
Anyone playing this rule for all it is worth?

Oh yes; this one's important to us! It makes all the difference in the world as to how you might attempt to grapple or restrain an opponent, sometimes even how you might choose to approach him.


Duke

[Mister E]

Hoorah! Storming idea. Mind you we still have the problem of what to do about IPE: you'd definitely need a cost diferential....OR....you could make IPE and adder: say +5 adder reduces the visibility by 2 - so non-attack powers will be half the cost to make invisible. Haven't done any cost examples yet, but it's a thought...An Adder? I'm have to think about that.

Okay, I've thought about it. Yes, and Adder is a good way to go.

+5 Character Points = Reduced visibility by 2? I really need to come back some time in the near future. (I'm a little tired/distracted right now.)


BTW, I was just looking through the book and we are also supposed to be defining a Point Of Origin for our powers. I kinda do this occasionally (he's got Eye-Beams: where do you think they come from?) and by default kinda assume it comes out of the hands if I haven't decided otherwise. This could really matter though, in certain situations: eye beams are pretty useless if you are wearing a c4 blindfold or have your hands tied behind you. Hell, it makes a world of difference to which limbs you immobilise when you grab an opponent.

Anyone playing this rule for all it is worth?Yes, this is another thing I do, almost subconsciously. I have seen Characters that my friends have created, with attacks built with the Indirect Advantage, just to simulate the fact that they can manifest their Powers from any part of their body.

[Sean Waters]

The point of origin thing is another advantage strength has over, say energy blast then. In fact, depending on the sfx of the power, it might make getting out of entangles practically impossible: if you use eye beams and are held immobile in a block of ice, you'd be able to bore a couple of holes in it in front of your face. Maybe even clear the entire face area, but unless you can move your neck, you are stuck.

Moreover, having to cut away the entangle from yourself, even if you can 'reach' is going to be a slow and careful business unless you bought 'personal immunity'.

It strikes me that applying this rule is going to make entangles far more effective. Am I being a silly billy?

[ghost-angel]

The point of origin thing is another advantage strength has over, say energy blast then. In fact, depending on the sfx of the power, it might make getting out of entangles practically impossible: if you use eye beams and are held immobile in a block of ice, you'd be able to bore a couple of holes in it in front of your face. Maybe even clear the entire face area, but unless you can move your neck, you are stuck.

Moreover, having to cut away the entangle from yourself, even if you can 'reach' is going to be a slow and careful business unless you bought 'personal immunity'.

It strikes me that applying this rule is going to make entangles far more effective. Am I being a silly billy?

eyes have a decent range of movement, depending on the SFX of the eyebeam it may even cut away some of the surrounding Entangle (melt ice around the eye-holes for example) enough for you to slowly extend that range of movement.

And you are getting into the silly billy range of "realism" for people freezing people in blocks of ice and other shooting beams out of their eyes, sometimes you just gotta go - yep, you laser your way out of the block of ice. Though sometimes for dramatic effect you gotta go, you laser away a bit at the block, hoping you'll cut enough away to tilt you head down and unfreeze your legs before the giant rolling pin squooshes you.

It's all in the scene at hand.

[PhilFleischmann]

Actually, that's exactly what Sense Group should mean - All Senses In The Group.
I'll accept that's what you think it should mean. Can you quote anything in the rulebook that says that?


but hey, do what you feel is good for your game. :straight:
Likewise, I'm sure. :)

[prestidigitator]

Am I being a silly billy?
Yes, but what's wrong with that? Actually, I like it as an idea for balancing out, "eyebeams," a bit. See, normally a character with eyebeams is still going to be able to use them while holding things or Grabbed (unless the Grabber pays close attention to do something with the head by Sweeping or ignoring a dangerous arm). I like the idea of there being some drawbacks to eyebeams as well. It's probably going to be pretty SFX-dependent, but I don't think Cyclops would have an easy time melting himself free from total encapsulation, for example, even if he does have personal immunity. He could certainly melt a breathing hole, which is a plus, but since he can only redirect his beam by reorienting his whole visor....

[ghost-angel]

I'll accept that's what you think it should mean. Can you quote anything in the rulebook that says that?

See the section of the book title SENSES. I don't know what wording 5ER has added or changed, but FREd makes it pretty clear that a Sense Group includes the Senses In The Group.

Otherwise buying "Invisibility: Sight Sense Group" means nothing, likewise "Shape Shift: Hearing Sense Group," or Images: Sight Sense Group," You can't arbitrarily exlude a particular Sense from a Group.

that's what GROUP means.

group ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grp)
n.
1. An assemblage of persons or objects gathered or located together; an aggregation: a group of dinner guests; a group of buildings near the road.
2. Two or more figures that make up a unit or design, as in sculpture.
3. A number of individuals or things considered together because of similarities: a small group of supporters across the country.
4. Linguistics. A category of related languages that is less inclusive than a family.
5a. A military unit consisting of two or more battalions and a headquarters.
5b. A unit of two or more squadrons in the U.S. Air Force, smaller than a wing.
6. A class or collection of related objects or entities, as:
6a. Two or more atoms behaving or regarded as behaving as a single chemical unit.
6b. A column in the periodic table of the elements.
6c. A stratigraphic unit, especially a unit consisting of two or more formations deposited during a single geologic era.
7. Mathematics. A group with a binary associative operation such that the operation admits an identity element and each element of the set has an inverse element for the operation.

I shouldn't NEED to point it out in the rulebook, I'm going off of basic English and Grammar Rules for this one.

[zornwil]

...and in a fit of mutual back slapping...I think that is a super idea too (although I might make it +1 per 10) :thumbup:
I think it just gets a bit complicated, personally, plus I prefer the route of not knowing if hit with Invis Pow Effect as more practical/expedient. Though it is a really neat idea and if one wants to take the extra time I can see it being good for certain types of play.

[PhilFleischmann]

See the section of the book title SENSES. I don't know what wording 5ER has added or changed, but FREd makes it pretty clear that a Sense Group includes the Senses In The Group.
You missed my point. Tell me where in the book it says that "visible to three sense groups" means "visible to every single sense in each of three sense groups."


You can't arbitrarily exlude a particular Sense from a Group.
Nor can you arbitrarily include a sense in a group. I claim that "visible to a sense group" means "there is a sense in the group that can detect the power" and that "invisible to a sense group" means "there isn't a sense in the group that can detect the power." I make that claim because it makes sense: not every power, realistically - even with comic book physics, will be visible to every sense in a particular group, even if it's visible to one or more senses in the group. If a Flash blinds by using visible light, there's no reason why it should be visible to IR or UV, for example.


I shouldn't NEED to point it out in the rulebook, I'm going off of basic English and Grammar Rules for this one.
If you don't want to have a serious discussion, that's fine. You don't need to quote the dictionary to me. You'll recall I asked for a quote from the *rulebook*. I think our disagreement is the logical difference between "For Every" and "For Some." (If you're familiar with symbolic predicate logic, it's the upside-down 'A' vs. the upside-down 'E'.)

[Sean Waters]

My take on the '3 sense groups' is that if the power is detectable by a particular sense group then it is detectable by every sense in the group. I understand PhilFleishman's point, but I think it would have been worded differently: 3 senses from 3 different sense groups. Moreover if you cf InvisiblePowerEffects (p 261) it seems to suggest this approach has some merit. In addition having just 3 senses would mean you could elect, say, infra red, ultrasonic and radiowaves and have the power invisible to normal humans. I don't think that is how it is meant to be.

Mind you this is coming from someone who normally doesn't bother too much about the relevant sense groups unless it comes up in play, so whaever works for you :)

[Sean Waters]

Yes, but what's wrong with that? Actually, I like it as an idea for balancing out, "eyebeams," a bit. See, normally a character with eyebeams is still going to be able to use them while holding things or Grabbed (unless the Grabber pays close attention to do something with the head by Sweeping or ignoring a dangerous arm). I like the idea of there being some drawbacks to eyebeams as well. It's probably going to be pretty SFX-dependent, but I don't think Cyclops would have an easy time melting himself free from total encapsulation, for example, even if he does have personal immunity. He could certainly melt a breathing hole, which is a plus, but since he can only redirect his beam by reorienting his whole visor....


Having thought about it a bit more, I believe my concern about the 'point of origin' rule is that it is a limit on every attack power except strength, and strength is already desperately efficient, points wise.

OTOH it makes far more sense to have a POO* than not. I guess my players have a few nasty surprises coming :D


* especially after a heavy meal:doi:

[ghost-angel]

You missed my point. Tell me where in the book it says that "visible to three sense groups" means "visible to every single sense in each of three sense groups."


Nor can you arbitrarily include a sense in a group. I claim that "visible to a sense group" means "there is a sense in the group that can detect the power" and that "invisible to a sense group" means "there isn't a sense in the group that can detect the power." I make that claim because it makes sense: not every power, realistically - even with comic book physics, will be visible to every sense in a particular group, even if it's visible to one or more senses in the group. If a Flash blinds by using visible light, there's no reason why it should be visible to IR or UV, for example.


If you don't want to have a serious discussion, that's fine. You don't need to quote the dictionary to me. You'll recall I asked for a quote from the *rulebook*. I think our disagreement is the logical difference between "For Every" and "For Some." (If you're familiar with symbolic predicate logic, it's the upside-down 'A' vs. the upside-down 'E'.)
No I really didn't miss your point. The rulebook should not have to spell out the meaning of "Visible To A Sense Group." I did get a bit sarcastic, I apologize for that, but really. I'm not Arbitrarily Assigning senses to groups. If you buy a Sense defined as a Sight - it goes in the Sight Group. I'll reference the Simulated Sense Group Rule in the Senses Section.

If the Sense Group Sight is: IR Sight, UV Sight, Normal Sight, N-Ray Sight and Magic Sight that something visible to the Sight Group would be visible to all forms of Sight.

That's what Visible to a Sense Group means - Visible To All Senses in the Group.

Sean Waters said what I was going to say, read his post.

How you adjust that for your games is up to you.

[prestidigitator]

Having thought about it a bit more, I believe my concern about the 'point of origin' rule is that it is a limit on every attack power except strength, and strength is already desperately efficient, points wise.

OTOH it makes far more sense to have a POO* than not. I guess my players have a few nasty surprises coming :D


* especially after a heavy meal:doi:
I think the, "Point of Origin," of Str is largely left up to the GM. In part it is covered in some rules, such as changing the amout of Str that can be used in a Grab or to resist a Disarm based upon the number of limbs involved. I think it would also be reasonable for the GM to reduce or limit the amount of Str exerted by various means. For example, it is generally much harder to force your hand open than to force it closed. This is characteristic of the way our bodies are built. So in a sense I think Str has implicit Point(s) of Origin. The benefit of Powers and Advantages is that you can define them explicitly, thus having more control over them as a player. :)

[Sean Waters]

I think the, "Point of Origin," of Str is largely left up to the GM. In part it is covered in some rules, such as changing the amout of Str that can be used in a Grab or to resist a Disarm based upon the number of limbs involved. I think it would also be reasonable for the GM to reduce or limit the amount of Str exerted by various means. For example, it is generally much harder to force your hand open than to force it closed. This is characteristic of the way our bodies are built. So in a sense I think Str has implicit Point(s) of Origin. The benefit of Powers and Advantages is that you can define them explicitly, thus having more control over them as a player. :)


Good points: this is something I have vaguely thought about in the past: if you are hit by a spideranesque web entangle whilst spreadeagled on the ground it is going to be far harder to escape than in other positions: you don't have the leverage.

Has anyone applied this thinking to entangles? Any useful guidance as to appropriate strength reductions?

[PhilFleischmann]

In addition having just 3 senses would mean you could elect, say, infra red, ultrasonic and radiowaves and have the power invisible to normal humans. I don't think that is how it is meant to be.
Which was my example from many posts ago. Yes, it's very munchkiny, and no, I wouldn't allow it in my games. But I would allow the three senses to be Normal Sight, Sonar, and Radar, say for an easily visible projectile that doesn't make any noise.


No I really didn't miss your point. The rulebook should not have to spell out the meaning of "Visible To A Sense Group."
And yet, here we are disagreeing on the interpretation of a rule that isn't "clearly spelled out."


That's what Visible to a Sense Group means - Visible To All Senses in the Group.
Again, that's what *you* interpret it to mean. I don't. And you haven't been able to site any passage in the book that declares one of us right or wrong.

[ghost-angel]

Which was my example from many posts ago. Yes, it's very munchkiny, and no, I wouldn't allow it in my games. But I would allow the three senses to be Normal Sight, Sonar, and Radar, say for an easily visible projectile that doesn't make any noise.


And yet, here we are disagreeing on the interpretation of a rule that isn't "clearly spelled out."


Again, that's what *you* interpret it to mean. I don't. And you haven't been able to site any passage in the book that declares one of us right or wrong.
I'm not so sure you're not just trying to argue Devil's Advocate on this one, for the sake of drawing out an arguement.

I asked my wife who is both an English Major and an Editor how one might interpret the Sense Groups Rule as laid out and she came to the conclusion I did - It means the entire Group unless it explicitely states otherwise.

So there you are... I'm not sure of another way to interpret the concept of Group beyond The Group Being Talked About. in this case Senses.

[Duke Bushido]

I've made public my own way of dealing with the '3 senses' rules,

but I would like to mention that every single time the rulebook refers to a sense as a singular sensory ability, it goes to a great deal of trouble to explain that it does _not_ mean every sense in that sense group.

During the rules section covering the '3 senses' rules, no such effort is ever made except for discussing the particulars on the IPE advantage.

That alone, to me, would indicate that the book does very much mean the entire sense group. (which I happily ignore).


Duke

[schir1964]

Good Grief!!

Why doesn't someone just ask Steve Long what the intent of the Three Sense Rule is. The rules have been misleading before, ergo 5th Edition Revised, so why is it so hard to think it might be unclear here.

I've never inferred that it requires All Senses in the Group, due to other statements made by Steve Long and how he's answered FAQs.

So I suggest someone just come out and ask him. (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

[Mentor]

Let us bring up the trust issue again as it applies to interraction between the player and the GM and the players themselves.

The issue of degree and extent of visiblity ought (IMHO) be based on SFX, concept and honesty. The GM needs to remember that the heroes are driving the "title" and thus if they are detected, it should be for a reason, not just to show his superiority. The GM has more points than the player so screwing him over is no great accomplishment. Likewise, the player needs to remember that if hedefines a SFX that supposedly grants the equal of 30 points worth, he needs to buy the powers, not just claim them. A superhero succeeding within the limitation of their character ability is far more impressive than Omnigirl, the Queen of Everything. On Star trek, TNG, "Q" was only interesting when he had his powers diminished or taken away somehow.

[OddHat]

On Star trek, TNG, "Q" was only interesting when he had his powers diminished or taken away somehow.

And when he went into battle accompanied by the number 3.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Okay, I asked Steve. Here's his answer:

Steve's Answer (http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?p=813861#post813861)

[zornwil]

Makes sense, what I expected in this case.

The point of my question, just to come back around to the original topic, was definitely interest in how people really do things, not challenging the rules in this case.

[Fox1]

I use the rules as they are written in the book.

Seems simple enough to me.

[PhilFleischmann]

I'm not so sure you're not just trying to argue Devil's Advocate on this one, for the sake of drawing out an arguement.
Let me assure you: I really do believe what I'm saying. I understand that your interpretation of the rules seems obvious to you. Can you accept that my interpretation of the rules seems obvious to me?


I asked my wife who is both an English Major and an Editor how one might interpret the Sense Groups Rule...
This is not a grammar issue. It's a logic issue. You don't perceive anything with sense groups, you perceive it with senses. When you say, "This character can perceive this power with his senses," you don't necessarily mean, "with *all* of his senses." ITRW, some phenomena are perceivable to a sense, but not to other senses within the same group. It follows that a power based on such a phenomenon could have the same property.

And now Steve has given a similar answer, and I agree with it.

[schir1964]

Okay, I asked Steve. Here's his answer:

Steve's Answer (http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?p=813861#post813861)
Thank you. I was truely surprised by Steve Longs answer, it seems he's changed him mind or forgotten how he's answered some of my questions, oh well.

Based on Steve's answer, it would seem that END Costing Powers are visible to "most if not all" senses in the three sense groups.

This is definately not how I've been running things. To go over my rules again:
1) Must be visible to the Sight Sense. Player doesn't have a choice on this one, but he can try to convince me otherwise of course.
2) Must be visible to the Hearing Sense. Player doesn't have a choice on this one, but he can try to convince me otherwise of course.
3) Must be visible to at least one sense in the Radio Group. Player gets to choose based on the SFX. I'm fairly lenient with this one, and if the player makes a good argument for another Sense Group Sense, that's ok too.

- Christopher Mullins

[Duke Bushido]

Odd thought:
for those of you who are flexible in your determination of what senses and how many, how do you feel about Abstract Concept Man building a power that is easily percieveable to the 'Detect' Group? ;)



the rules have been misleading before, ergo 5th Edition Revised,
Woah! There's _another_ Fifth Edition?! :eek: I gotta get a better local vendor.... :nonp:



On Star Trek, TNG, "Q" was only interesting when he had his powers diminished or taken away somehow
I'm really enjoying both sides of the discussion on the Visible SFX issue, but I've got to take a definate stand on the "Q" issue:

I disagree. "Q" was _never_ interesting....:D


Duke

[prestidigitator]

I think that's close to the way I usually play it. My interpretation is that by default a Power is perceivable by all Senses in each Sense Group, but if it makes sense (ha!) a particular unusual Sense or two might be excluded. For example, a smoke-based attack would be generally perceivable by all Sight Group Senses, but might exclude IR Vision. A power should usually be perceivable to Normal Sight and Normal Hearing, so if Sight and Hearing are two of the Sense Groups, it would be unreasonable to exclude those particular Senses without IPE.

[schir1964]

Odd thought:
for those of you who are flexible in your determination of what senses and how many, how do you feel about Abstract Concept Man building a power that is easily percieveable to the 'Detect' Group? ;)
More explanation is needed.
Do you mean in addition to the Three Sense Groups?

However, the "Detect" Group isn't a group unto itself. What's the SFX of the power in question, what does it do, and against what kind of defense?


Woah! There's _another_ Fifth Edition?! :eek: I gotta get a better local vendor.... :nonp:
Yep, and it's a third thicker! (8^D)

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Oh, BTW, I actually allow all of the Sense Groups to be Non-Targetting, but in this case the Power has to be so, "noisy," or whatever to one of the Sense Groups that Senses from that Sense Group could be used to precisely pinpoint (and target if done with careful timing) the attacker.

For example, for a Power that, "discharges a large but diffuse static charge at the target," you might easily feel (Touch Group) where it comes from (at range, even if you don't have Ranged Touch) and know exactly where the attacker is, even though the discharge is not visible. If you were to make an immediate attack or be subsequently attacked by the same attacker, you would be at full OCV and DCV even if you cannot otherwise perceive the attacker with a Targeting Sense.

[prestidigitator]

And when he went into battle accompanied by the number 3.
"This episode of Star Trek TNG has been brought to you by the letter 'Q' and the number '3'." :D

[ghost-angel]

Steve managed to agree with all of us... no wonder he writes The Book.

This is what I got:

A Power is visible to 3 Sense Groups.
A Sense Group is defined as all the Senses in the Group, if you choose Sight Group it is visible to all forms of Sight: Normal, Night, IR, UV, etc... unless the GM believes that a particular Sight Sense that is not "normal" (ie, Magic Sight) doesn't work.

But that's the GM Choosing - Not the Player. The Player says "Sight Group, Hearing Group, Radio Group" and by default all Senses in all three Groups percieve it. The GM may then have a caveat that a particular Sense does not work.

Which is both what I've (all the parts before unless anyway) said and what Phil (and may others) have said.

[Duke Bushido]

More explanation is needed.
Do you mean in addition to the Three Sense Groups?

However, the "Detect" Group isn't a group unto itself. What's the SFX of the power in question, what does it do, and against what kind of defense?

Yes, in addition to the Three Senses already required; I should have been more clear.

Abstract ConceptionMan has, over the years (along with HeroMan and SidekickBoy) become sort of a 'proving ground' our group uses to both beta-test unusual constructs and to determine if something is "too meta-game" or "too unregulated" to work sensibly for us. During the course of this thread, I was wondering what a power 'visible to Detect', where 'Detect' is infinite by ommission of restriction, would be like. More a thought exercise than an actual plan. (Though I might add it to his character sheet!:thumbup:)

[prestidigitator]

Yes, in addition to the Three Senses already required; I should have been more clear.

Abstract ConceptionMan has, over the years (along with HeroMan and SidekickBoy) become sort of a 'proving ground' our group uses to both beta-test unusual constructs and to determine if something is "too meta-game" or "too unregulated" to work sensibly for us. During the course of this thread, I was wondering what a power 'visible to Detect', where 'Detect' is infinite by ommission of restriction, would be like. More a thought exercise than an actual plan. (Though I might add it to his character sheet!:thumbup:)
I think it would actually be a version of the Visible (or is it Noisy?) Limitation. Why? Because I view Detect as actually the mechanics behind all the Senses, even the normal ones. It may not work out this way in terms of points (not sure), but that's the way I think of it. Therefore, Abstract Concept Man's power is visible to every Sense that exists. :)

[ghost-angel]

I think it would actually be a version of the Visible (or is it Noisy?) Limitation. Why? Because I view Detect as actually the mechanics behind all the Senses, even the normal ones. It may not work out this way in terms of points (not sure), but that's the way I think of it. Therefore, Abstract Concept Man's power is visible to every Sense that exists. :)

this is how I look at all sense as well.

IR: Detect Heat Patterns (5pts). IR Sight uses the Simulated Sense Rule - IR gains all the benefits your Sight Sense has (analyze, targeting, etc...) and is affected by anything that affects the Sight Sense Group (like Flashes vs Sight Group).

[Duke Bushido]

I think it would actually be a version of the Visible (or is it Noisy?) Limitation. Why? Because I view Detect as actually the mechanics behind all the Senses, even the normal ones. It may not work out this way in terms of points (not sure), but that's the way I think of it. Therefore, Abstract Concept Man's power is visible to every Sense that exists. :)

You're right of course, for the idea as I originally submitted it. I've been thinking about it some more, though, and have gone further:

I was under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that a Detect, as a special ability, is not obligated to be linked to a traditional sense, and in fact takes modifiers for such construction. Running with that, I think I'm going to go with this:

base 3: Sight, touch, smell.
"Visible' to All Detects (not those defined as being a special ability on an existing sense, like being able to 'see' auras, etc)
"Visible" to the heart. Everyone near him when he uses this power "Just Knows" that he really wants to use it.

Yes, it's odd, and abstract (hence his name). Anyone see anything illegal here?


Duke

[ghost-angel]

You're right of course, for the idea as I originally submitted it. I've been thinking about it some more, though, and have gone further:

I was under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that a Detect, as a special ability, is not obligated to be linked to a traditional sense, and in fact takes modifiers for such construction. Running with that, I think I'm going to go with this:

base 3: Sight, touch, smell.
"Visible' to All Detects (not those defined as being a special ability on an existing sense, like being able to 'see' auras, etc)
"Visible" to the heart. Everyone near him when he uses this power "Just Knows" that he really wants to use it.

Yes, it's odd, and abstract (hence his name). Anyone see anything illegal here?


Duke

Detects not using the Simulated Sense Rule should only ever detect what they're saying they are. Detect: Iron Ore will be of no use vs Fireball Man.

In this respect "Detect's" already take care of themselves, they either follow the Simulated Sense Rule or they only work vs exactly what they are defined to work against. And a player should have a very good reason for not using a Simulated Sense (Like Magic Sight).

[schir1964]

You're right of course, for the idea as I originally submitted it. I've been thinking about it some more, though, and have gone further:

I was under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that a Detect, as a special ability, is not obligated to be linked to a traditional sense, and in fact takes modifiers for such construction. Running with that, I think I'm going to go with this:

base 3: Sight, touch, smell.
"Visible' to All Detects (not those defined as being a special ability on an existing sense, like being able to 'see' auras, etc)
"Visible" to the heart. Everyone near him when he uses this power "Just Knows" that he really wants to use it.

Yes, it's odd, and abstract (hence his name). Anyone see anything illegal here?


Duke
If it doesn't fall into the Simulated Senses, then it defaults to the Unusual Sense Group. You'll need to read up on that since it has some special rules.

- Christopher Mullins

[Duke Bushido]

Will do, once the moving and unpacking are all done.

I think I'm going to give him Taste: Targetting, too....

If he can taste it, he can hit it! Why, I might even make it Ranged if I'm feeling generous!

Thanks folks.

[Sean Waters]

Will do, once the moving and unpacking are all done.

I think I'm going to give him Taste: Targetting, too....

If he can taste it, he can hit it! Why, I might even make it Ranged if I'm feeling generous!

Thanks folks.


No, mate, don't make it ranged :doi:

You have to think logically: if he's actually licking something, he knows where it is to hit it :)

[OddHat]

No, mate, don't make it ranged :doi:

You have to think logically: if he's actually licking something, he knows where it is to hit it :)

Gamism: He's just sensing it with a non-targetting sense, and is at 1/2 OCV.

Character concept, borrowed from The Tick: Ranged 360 Degree Targetting Taste, with Discriminatory and Analyze. "I can taste the World."

[Sean Waters]

Gamism: He's just sensing it with a non-targetting sense, and is at 1/2 OCV.

Character concept, borrowed from The Tick: Ranged 360 Degree Targetting Taste, with Discriminatory and Analyze. "I can taste the World."


Whilst the original was meant to be humourous, I reckon touch (if not taste) IS a targetting sense. If I have hold of someone, I am not going to be taking any OCV penalties. I can fight in the dark, while blinded, etc. Of course if I am grabbing them that effects their DCV anyway which offsets the penalties, but even a light touch would tell me where to hit without any problem, if not exactly which bit I am hitting (so increased penalties on aimed attacks, certainly). This is more the kinaesthetic sense than actual touch, or rather the two working together, but we may have discovered at least one more targetting sense here....

[OddHat]

Whilst the original was meant to be humourous, I reckon touch (if not taste) IS a targetting sense. If I have hold of someone, I am not going to be taking any OCV penalties. I can fight in the dark, while blinded, etc. Of course if I am grabbing them that effects their DCV anyway which offsets the penalties, but even a light touch would tell me where to hit without any problem, if not exactly which bit I am hitting (so increased penalties on aimed attacks, certainly). This is more the kinaesthetic sense than actual touch, or rather the two working together, but we may have discovered at least one more targetting sense here....

By the rules, touch is not a targetting sense. I think it's a silly rule and ignore it in my campaign, but there you are.

[Sean Waters]

By the rules, touch is not a targetting sense. I think it's a silly rule and ignore it in my campaign, but there you are.

Quite right too. :celebrate

[Duke Bushido]

Gamism: He's just sensing it with a non-targetting sense, and is at 1/2 OCV.
Precisely! ;) With this new construct, ACM will be able to accurately target anything in his mouth instead of just guessing!


Character concept, borrowed from The Tick: Ranged 360 Degree Targetting Taste, with Discriminatory and Analyze. "I can taste the World."
I'm torn. As the new guy, I really hate to ask a question that shows what may be an inexcusable ignorance of the board's culture, but this is like the tenth "The Tick" refference I've run across on this board. Can someone help me out here?

[OddHat]

I'm torn. As the new guy, I really hate to ask a question that shows what may be an inexcusable ignorance of the board's culture, but this is like the tenth "The Tick" refference I've run across on this board. Can someone help me out here?

Google or Wikipedia for The Tick. Fantastic comic book Superhero parody, became a very good cartoon and a good (short-lived) live action TV series.

[Mentor]

I'm really enjoying both sides of the discussion on the Visible SFX issue, but I've got to take a definate stand on the "Q" issue:

I disagree. "Q" was _never_ interesting....:D


Duke
Purist!:D

I prefer to view interesting as a relative term in this case.;)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Google or Wikipedia for The Tick. Fantastic comic book Superhero parody, became a very good cartoon and a good (short-lived) live action TV series.
Welllllll...I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with OddHat on the live action series being good. If it had been set in the world of The Tick, I'd probably call it "good". As it was, though, two things about it really annoyed me: first, a number of the things they had the Tick say and do were very out of character (see his comments to the soda machine in episode 1) and second, they changed the names of some important supporting characters for, AFAICT, either PC-ism and/or trying to entice certain demographics. (Batmanuel? :rolleyes: Come on!)

But by all means check out the comic books and the cartoon. The cartoon does a very good job of maintaining the feel of the comic books; not surprising, when you realized Mr. Edlund had a hand in the cartoon, as well.

To my knowledge The Tick cartoon has not been released on DVD yet, so your only hope of finding it may be certain file-sharing networks. :whistle:

[Duke Bushido]

Heh heh heh heh---

just for the sake of discussion, I'm going to move to the other side of the line for a minute:


By the rules, touch is not a targetting sense. I think it's a silly rule and ignore it in my campaign, but there you are.


'Hat---
you ever walk up behind your buddy at an oblique and tap him on the 'wrong' shoulder?

Puts that 1/2 OCV penalty in perspective a bit, I think. ;)

Duke

[OddHat]

Welllllll...I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with OddHat on the live action series being good. If it had been set in the world of The Tick, I'd probably call it "good". As it was, though, two things about it really annoyed me: first, a number of the things they had the Tick say and do were very out of character (see his comments to the soda machine in episode 1) and second, they changed the names of some important supporting characters for, AFAICT, either PC-ism and/or trying to entice certain demographics. (Batmanuel? :rolleyes: Come on!)

I'd agree it was not nearly as funny as the comic or the cartoon. Still, I only got to see it on DVD, from start to finish; it was worth watching, especially the Trial and Arthur's date.

I'd love to see a complete DVD set of the cartoon.

[Sean Waters]

Precisely! ;)
I'm torn. As the new guy, I really hate to ask a question that shows what may be an inexcusable ignorance of the board's culture, but this is like the tenth "The Tick" refference I've run across on this board. Can someone help me out here?

Just type 'The Tick' into your search engine.

Here's a starter for 10:

http://www.cs.rose-hulman.edu/~stinerkt/Tick.html

[Sean Waters]

'Hat---
you ever walk up behind your buddy at an oblique and tap him on the 'wrong' shoulder?

Puts that 1/2 OCV penalty in perspective a bit, I think. ;)

Duke


...ever used the Picard manoeuvre?

Well, me neither, but I would if I could move fast enough :)

[Duke Bushido]

Okay-- a quick flurry of answers:

Thanks for the head's up on The Tick; I was sort of under the impression that it was some sort of 'in' joke, and so I didn't bother googling for it. What I did find filled me with much merriment. I'm going to have to find some way to see those cartoons! (Now there's a rare thing to hear me say...)

I liked the Kirk Trek, partly because I'm old, and partly because I just don't think that you can win by talking an opponent to death, and partly because Kirk had all kinds of tech, whereas one hundred years later, everything would be resolved by 'shields.' Though I am stirred to memory of a joke an employee once told me.

First, some background. I live in Savannah, Georgia, USA, and Todd (my employee at the time) was something of an unusual persona for this area; he was a black man (he hated the term 'African American.' He'd tell you instantly that he, nor his parents, nor theirs, nor theirs, had ever had any recollection of Africa. He then proved that he was 'more American American' than I was (his family had been here longer, it seems) who loved science fiction. Unusual in this area.

He asked me once "Duke, you ever notice that the only black Vulcan is named 'Tupac?' [yes, it was an intentional mispronunciation]. I keep waiting for him to turn around and say "Captain, my Homie; suggest we modify the shields and 'bus' a cap in dey ***....."

Let me further explain that Todd was offended by the 'black' vulcan as a concept. He reasoned that Vulcans were aliens (or motorcycles), and as such it seemed extrodinary that they would look as human as they do; having the exact same races seemed dubious, and as Vulcans were supposed to have green blood, he felt that 'darker skinned Vulcans' would look more green than brown. (I never knew when he was kidding or not; he was very dry in his humor.) He also felt that he could more readily accept an alien race that was exclusively 'African American' in appearance easier than one that had all the human races represented in their own appearance.

(at this point, one of the drivers would usually come in announce that they were going to 'smack the geek out of both of us'... ;) )

And thirdly, I have no idea what the Picard manoeuvre is. Up until this very moment, I thought it was the ability to bore an enemy into submission...

:D :D :D



Please enlighten me, Sensei!

Duke

[Dr. Anomaly]

And thirdly, I have no idea what the Picard manoeuvre is. Up until this very moment, I thought it was the ability to bore an enemy into submission...

:D :D :D



Please enlighten me, Sensei!

Duke
From an early Next Generation episode called "The Battle". It involves jumping your ship to warp for a fraction of a second, just before firing on the enemy ship. The rationale behind this is that, for just that instant, your ship will appear to be in two places at once and the enemy vessel may fire on / defend against the wrong ship -- the ship that is, in essence, a still-fading sensor ghost from where your ship used to be before you jumped to warp.

It's called the "Picard Manuever" because a much-younger Picard was apparently the first one to think of it and use it against a then-unknown vessel (which later proved to be an early encounter with the Ferengi) in the Maxia system.

[zornwil]

Thank you. I was truely surprised by Steve Longs answer, it seems he's changed him mind or forgotten how he's answered some of my questions, oh well.

Based on Steve's answer, it would seem that END Costing Powers are visible to "most if not all" senses in the three sense groups.

This is definately not how I've been running things. To go over my rules again:
1) Must be visible to the Sight Sense. Player doesn't have a choice on this one, but he can try to convince me otherwise of course.
2) Must be visible to the Hearing Sense. Player doesn't have a choice on this one, but he can try to convince me otherwise of course.
3) Must be visible to at least one sense in the Radio Group. Player gets to choose based on the SFX. I'm fairly lenient with this one, and if the player makes a good argument for another Sense Group Sense, that's ok too.

- Christopher Mullins
How were you thinking it worked prior to Steve's answer? Just curious.

[Sean Waters]

I spend half the time I watch TNG episodes shouting at the screen 'Shields up, phasers and photon torpodoes, full spread! Kirk would have!'

Well he'd have blown them up or seduced their women, or possibly both :)

[Mentor]

From an early Next Generation episode called "The Battle". It involves jumping your ship to warp for a fraction of a second, just before firing on the enemy ship. The rationale behind this is that, for just that instant, your ship will appear to be in two places at once and the enemy vessel may fire on / defend against the wrong ship -- the ship that is, in essence, a still-fading sensor ghost from where your ship used to be before you jumped to warp.

It's called the "Picard Manuever" because a much-younger Picard was apparently the first one to think of it and use it against a then-unknown vessel (which later proved to be an early encounter with the Ferengi) in the Maxia system.
While that is the correct "official" definition of the "Picard Manuever" if you recall the very first episode of STNG, numerous geeks watched in anticipation of greater glory for Star Fleet and in his first televised combat encounter with the enemy, Jean Luc Picard spoke the immortal words, "We surrender" forever defining that as the Picard Manuever in the lore of geekdom.

[Mentor]

I spend half the time I watch TNG episodes shouting at the screen 'Shields up, phasers and photon torpodoes, full spread! Kirk would have!'

Well he'd have blown them up or seduced their women, or possibly both :)
Sean totally gets the whole point of Star Trek.:D :thumbup:

[Dr. Anomaly]

While that is the correct "official" definition of the "Picard Manuever" if you recall the very first episode of STNG, numerous geeks watched in anticipation of greater glory for Star Fleet and in his first televised combat encounter with the enemy, Jean Luc Picard spoke the immortal words, "We surrender" forever defining that as the Picard Manuever in the lore of geekdom.
Oh, I recall it, alright. I just usually try to forget most of the first season. (Esp. Troi's giving in to / visibly "feeling" the emotions she's reading. Thank goodness that went away! :rolleyes: )

[schir1964]

How were you thinking it worked prior to Steve's answer? Just curious.
Pretty much that you had to have at least one sense in the sense group, but with Normal Sight and Normal Hearing being the default selection that you had little control over so needed to convince the GM otherwise.

- Christopher Mullins