A reason to play a 'straight' MA

[Zed-F]

We've had lots of posts in the past about how STR is 'better' than MA DC levels. In many ways this is arguably true. The figured characteristics, movement, casual STR, and lift/throw that STR gives are good stuff, no question, plus STR works with every maneuver you use, not just ones you bought. To balance that out MA levels are slightly cheaper, cost no END to use, and can boost certain martial maneuvers to give relatively inexpensive attacks that go against defenses other than straight PD.

For some, however, this may not be enough. So here's another plus in favour of the MA, in case you needed one. You can buy really inexpensive highly advantaged HAs and boost them easily with DC levels. It's much harder to do this with pure STR.

For example, let's take a Brick with 40 STR versus a MA with 10 STR, a +2 DC maneuver, and 4 extra DCs. Let's say we want our character to have a 'Whirlwind attack' that will hit anyone that comes within striking distance of him, even before an opponent can launch his own attack, and that he wants the attack to do 10d6 damage. Assuming the GM ok's the power in principle, we'll define this as a continuous AOE attack, as follows:

xd6 HA, Continuous (+1), 2" Radius [1 Hex Extended] Non-selective (+1/2), Personal Immunity (+1/4), 1/2 END Cost (+1/4), Hand Attack (-1/2)

For the brick to buy a power like this and get it to work for up to 10d6, he'll either have to buy all those advantages on his STR (not likely) or just buy the HA defined above as a 5d6 HA. That's 75 AP, and 50 RP. He can then add 25 STR to the HA to make it a 10d6 attack, without needing any advantages on his STR. Pretty good, all things considered; he's doubling the effective AP value of the HA just by using 25 STR.

The MA, on the other hand, can get away with a 2d6 HA, for only 30 AP and 20 RP. His STR of 10 will double that to 4d6, then the martial manuever will make it 6d6, and his extra DCs will make that 10d6. That's quintupling the value of the HA! It's true that the MA probably spent roughly the same amount of RP on his martial arts as the brick did on his extra STR. And it's true that the MA probably doesn't have nearly the STUN, REC, etc. that the Brick does. On the other hand, he can save a boatload of RP on his multipower of specialty HAs, compared to the equivalent in Brick Tricks, which offsets the lack of free figureds quite nicely.

So, sometimes it's good to be the MA instead of the brick. :D

[mikesama]

The ont thing that makes martial damage classes really nice is martial NND and flash attacks.

Lets see, nerve strike and 4 DC = 4d6 NND. :D

[Zed-F]

Well, considering I can get the above continuous AoE HA for one point in a martial arts multipower, I'd hardly say the martial NND and flash attacks are the only thing that's nice about MAs. :)

[schir1964]

...To balance that out MA levels are slightly cheaper, cost no END to use...
Clarification: Actually, any maneuver, including Martial Maneuver, costs 1 END to perform. The rules state this, though many miss it, and many who don't miss it, just ignore it. To paraphrase, the Minimum END Cost of an action is 1 END.

Just A Clarification

- Christopher Mullins

[Zed-F]

The DC levels, themselves, cost no END to use beyond the cost to exert the maneuver -- that's what I was referring to.

[Sean Waters]

We've had lots of posts in the past about how STR is 'better' than MA DC levels. In many ways this is arguably true. The figured characteristics, movement, casual STR, and lift/throw that STR gives are good stuff, no question, plus STR works with every maneuver you use, not just ones you bought. To balance that out MA levels are slightly cheaper, cost no END to use, and can boost certain martial maneuvers to give relatively inexpensive attacks that go against defenses other than straight PD.

For some, however, this may not be enough. So here's another plus in favour of the MA, in case you needed one. You can buy really inexpensive highly advantaged HAs and boost them easily with DC levels. It's much harder to do this with pure STR.

For example, let's take a Brick with 40 STR versus a MA with 10 STR, a +2 DC maneuver, and 4 extra DCs. Let's say we want our character to have a 'Whirlwind attack' that will hit anyone that comes within striking distance of him, even before an opponent can launch his own attack, and that he wants the attack to do 10d6 damage. Assuming the GM ok's the power in principle, we'll define this as a continuous AOE attack, as follows:

xd6 HA, Continuous (+1), 2" Radius [1 Hex Extended] Non-selective (+1/2), Personal Immunity (+1/4), 1/2 END Cost (+1/4), Hand Attack (-1/2)

For the brick to buy a power like this and get it to work for up to 10d6, he'll either have to buy all those advantages on his STR (not likely) or just buy the HA defined above as a 5d6 HA. That's 75 AP, and 50 RP. He can then add 25 STR to the HA to make it a 10d6 attack, without needing any advantages on his STR. Pretty good, all things considered; he's doubling the effective AP value of the HA just by using 25 STR.

The MA, on the other hand, can get away with a 2d6 HA, for only 30 AP and 20 RP. His STR of 10 will double that to 4d6, then the martial manuever will make it 6d6, and his extra DCs will make that 10d6. That's quintupling the value of the HA! It's true that the MA probably spent roughly the same amount of RP on his martial arts as the brick did on his extra STR. And it's true that the MA probably doesn't have nearly the STUN, REC, etc. that the Brick does. On the other hand, he can save a boatload of RP on his multipower of specialty HAs, compared to the equivalent in Brick Tricks, which offsets the lack of free figureds quite nicely.

So, sometimes it's good to be the MA instead of the brick. :D

I may have had too much beer, but hang on a second here...

First off he hits anyone who comes near him, friend or foe. That's just a design point, but...

Second I don't think that the martial manouvres/DCs are going to add to a constructed power like that. If not the basis of the thesis is flawed. Or my patchy knowledge is at fault again. Perhaps someone could clarify?

[Fox1]

Second I don't think that the martial manouvres/DCs are going to add to a constructed power like that. If not the basis of the thesis is flawed.

From my memory without my books near me, it doesn't work like that.

[Zed-F]

I didn't think so either, originally. I was quoted the following earlier:

STR up to the base dice of an advantaged HA is added directly, and then the MA damage is added on top of that. See pages 406 (under Extra Damage Classes for Unarmed Martial Maneuvers), 407 near the bottom right and 408 of 5thER Revised.

As far as the whirlwind attack, the non-selective was indeed deliberate -- think of a guy who's spinning rapidly with outstretched blades, rather than someone performing individual strikes in a circle about him.

[Sean Waters]

...when you use a manoeuvre, yes, but I don't think you can 'automatically' use a manouuvre without having to take the time to do it, so I don't think your continuous HA can take advantage of any manouvres you may know.

I could be wrong.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

plus, the 10str doesnt' double 2d6 to 4d6, it makes it 2.5d6

[Zed-F]

plus, the 10str doesnt' double 2d6 to 4d6, it makes it 2.5d6
Unless something changed in 5ER in this regard, which I very much doubt, that's incorrect. STR applied to HAs is not pro-rated, only STR applied to HKAs is.

[Zed-F]

...when you use a manoeuvre, yes, but I don't think you can 'automatically' use a manouuvre without having to take the time to do it, so I don't think your continuous HA can take advantage of any manouvres you may know.

I could be wrong.
*shrug* The principle still applies. Just pick some other set of +2 worth of advantages and you'll get the same result.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Unless something changed in 5ER in this regard, which I very much doubt, that's incorrect. STR applied to HAs is not pro-rated, only STR applied to HKAs is.

oh right, it's a hand attack, i thought it was a hand killing attack. my fault

[Fox1]

I didn't think so either, originally. I was quoted the following earlier:

So it seems.

I would still disallow it.

[Sean Waters]

OK.

The rules for adding damage to advantaged HAs are poorly organised and explained. I assume you can not more than double the advantaged damage of the HA no matter the source of the added damage, but that really is not clear.

I will post a question for Mr Long.

[radioKAOS]

Clarification: Actually, any maneuver, including Martial Maneuver, costs 1 END to perform. The rules state this, though many miss it, and many who don't miss it, just ignore it. To paraphrase, the Minimum END Cost of an action is 1 END.

Just A Clarification

- Christopher Mullins

Of course, without my book in front of me...

Does this mean that if I am a MA with 10 STR and I perfom a Quick strike, it costs me 2 END? 1 for the STR and one for the Move?

Or is it just that it would cost me 1 END even if I decided not to use any STR with the move?


Also, what if I don't really want to add more damage dice/already at the Damage cap for the campaign? Would I create it as a MP of naked advantages on STR? or create it as 1/2D6 or 1pip HtH with advantages?

[Sean Waters]

Of course, without my book in front of me...

Does this mean that if I am a MA with 10 STR and I perfom a Quick strike, it costs me 2 END? 1 for the STR and one for the Move?

Or is it just that it would cost me 1 END even if I decided not to use any STR with the move?


Also, what if I don't really want to add more damage dice/already at the Damage cap for the campaign? Would I create it as a MP of naked advantages on STR? or create it as 1/2D6 or 1pip HtH with advantages?

Martial manoeuvres do not cost END to use (5ER p 425) Normal manoueuvres use the strength cost for END or 1 END if it doesn't use STR, like block or dodge (same page reference). Presumably if your STR is bought to 0 END you do not have to spend 1 END to dodge, but that is not explicit.

I'm not sure what the second bit means.

[radioKAOS]

The second bit was more of a design question. My MA is already the heaviest hitter in the campaign and I don't want to push that with the GM, but I would like to add some new abilities such as Affects Desolild or Armour Piercing... so how should I buy that? I have 5DCs and 15 STR, so with a Quick Strike I am already doing 10D6, and I don't want to go much higher than that. Buying even 1D6AP gives me 1D6HtH + 1D6 from STR, +5D6 from DCs, +2D6 Quick Strike= 9D6AP! That's a little high for this game I think, considering my 10D6 is the highest attack in the [<200pt] game so far.


Next I'm wondering if to even this all out you should be forced to buy a Weapon Element, perhaps even for each? [and yes I agree that's overcomplicating things, but it's quite the advantage to be able to use the bonuses from MA moves and your DCs 'free of charge']

I know it's not actually bought as a weapon, but it seems like you're adding a different 'element' to each attack this way, no?

[schir1964]

Some Maneuvers and other Actions don't have a listed STR value; in such cases, a character spends 1 END. This includes such Maneuvers as Block, Dodge, or firing a weapon.
Even if Martial Maneuvers themself don't cost endurance, any action a character makes must spend a minimum of 1 END. Now I haven't read the FAQ questions to see if any more clarification was made on this, but as I recall the last time Steve Long was asked, a minimum of 1 END must spent on an action.

Just A Clarification

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Even if Martial Maneuvers themself don't cost endurance, any action a character makes must spend a minimum of 1 END. Now I haven't read the FAQ questions to see if any more clarification was made on this, but as I recall the last time Steve Long was asked, a minimum of 1 END must spent on an action.

Just A Clarification

- Christopher Mullins

I don't know, following that logic even powers at 0END would cost 1 END to use, which makes a mockery of the suggestion at page 457 that automatons might sell back END to 0 and use 0 END powers: they wouldn't be able to do anything.

I think 'doesn't cost END' has to mean just that, and martial arts don't cost END.

I could be wrong :)

[schir1964]

I don't know, following that logic even powers at 0END would cost 1 END to use, which makes a mockery of the suggestion at page 457 that automatons might sell back END to 0 and use 0 END powers: they wouldn't be able to do anything.
Actions dude actions. Causing a blue beam to come out of your hand isn't an action, and I'm not talking about an attack either. You can use your powers for non-attacks and if they are bought Zero END, then they are Zero END. Turning on a power isn't an action. The quote I gave above was strictly speaking about non-power things, so I don't know how you made that connection. I guess I just didn't give enough context.

- Christopher Mullins

[Fox1]

OK.

The rules for adding damage to advantaged HAs are poorly organised and explained. I assume you can not more than double the advantaged damage of the HA no matter the source of the added damage, but that really is not clear.

I will post a question for Mr Long.

I was thinking the same, however there isn't anything that says the limit applies to Martial Arts and the example given did limit STR bonus to 2x.

I think it's a rather important flaw in the rules. They really over complicated that section in order to make some things as easy as they should be (like adding to weapons with a stun bonus).

[prestidigitator]

OK.

The rules for adding damage to advantaged HAs are poorly organised and explained. I assume you can not more than double the advantaged damage of the HA no matter the source of the added damage, but that really is not clear.

I will post a question for Mr Long.
Extra DCs bought for Martial Arts count as Base Damage (though this is specifically mentioned as a rule GMs may wish to exclude), and therefore do not count toward the doubling limit (in fact they increase the doubling limit). It is only the extra DCs of a particular maneuver and from Str, CSLs, etc. that cannot more than double the Base Damage.

However, I think that while CSLs, Martial Maneuvers, and Haymakers ignore Advantages, there is no suck clause for the extra DCs bought for Martial Arts (while such DCs only apply when using Martial Maneuvers, they are not maneuver damage). Therefore, to add the +4d6 in the example given, the total +2 Advantages on the HA (maybe Reduced End Cost should be excluded as it does not affect how damage is applied, but I'll ignore that for the moment so it is a nice even number) would require that the MA buy +12 DCs for Martial Arts. That's my understanding.

EDIT: However, since the extra Martial Arts DCs add to Base Damage, I think the MA could get away with using them to increase the HA to only 5d6, then use more Str, a stronger maneuver such as Offensive Strike, CSLs, etc., to get up to 10d6. That would require only buying +9 DCs (still reasonably expensive).

[prestidigitator]

I don't know, following that logic even powers at 0END would cost 1 END to use, which makes a mockery of the suggestion at page 457 that automatons might sell back END to 0 and use 0 END powers: they wouldn't be able to do anything.

I think 'doesn't cost END' has to mean just that, and martial arts don't cost END.

I could be wrong :)
Agreed. I would probably rule myself that any Maneuver that is based on Str or Movement (Dive for Cover, but not Dodge, as Dodge does not require or allow the character to to enter a different hex as part of the Maneuver itself) costs a minimum of 1 End (unless said Str or Movement is itself bought to 0 End) even if you choose not to add Str or Movement to it. You are, in effect, using a very small amount of Str, and using Str at all costs at least 1 End, even if it is 2 Str, 0 Str, or -15 Str; likewise a Dive for Cover to place yourself in the way of an attack at another character will cost a minimum of 1 End (unless the Movement Power used for the DfC is bought to 0 End) bacause it is movement based, even if the attack itself is going through your hex so you don't have to use even 1" of Running, Leaping, or whatever.

Range attacks like EBs and RKAs (such as eyebeams) would not count unless they have the Strength Minimum Limitation. So if you buy an EB it will Cost End, but you can apply Reduced End Cost to eliminate this; applying a Strength Minimum Limitation to it would then again require you to use at least a little Str, so it would cost a minimum of 1 End unless you buy Reduced End Cost on your Str.

EDIT: Now what about a character that buys Reduced End Cost for only 1 point of Str? I don't know, but I wouldn't allow it anyway as it is obvious munchkinism.

[Zed-F]

Extra DCs bought for Martial Arts count as Base Damage (though this is specifically mentioned as a rule GMs may wish to exclude), and therefore do not count toward the doubling limit (in fact they increase the doubling limit). It is only the extra DCs of a particular maneuver and from Str, CSLs, etc. that cannot more than double the Base Damage.

However, I think that while CSLs, Martial Maneuvers, and Haymakers ignore Advantages, there is no suck clause for the extra DCs bought for Martial Arts (while such DCs only apply when using Martial Maneuvers, they are not maneuver damage). Therefore, to add the +4d6 in the example given, the total +2 Advantages on the HA (maybe Reduced End Cost should be excluded as it does not affect how damage is applied, but I'll ignore that for the moment so it is a nice even number) would require that the MA buy +12 DCs for Martial Arts. That's my understanding.

EDIT: However, since the extra Martial Arts DCs add to Base Damage, I think the MA could get away with using them to increase the HA to only 5d6, then use more Str, a stronger maneuver such as Offensive Strike, CSLs, etc., to get up to 10d6. That would require only buying +9 DCs (still reasonably expensive).

Well, perhaps we can get an answer from Steve on what this is supposed to be, officially.

[Zed-F]

Well, perhaps we can get an answer from Steve on what this is supposed to be, officially.


I've looked at the rules for adding damage to advantaged HAs.

It is clear when adding damage with strength that you can double the base HA damage and retain the advantages.

When adding damage with Martial Arts and damage classes, I find myself confused (not an unusual circumstance )

5ER p 407 at the bottom says MA maneuvres add to damage at the same rate as if there were no advantage, but does not specify any upper limit to the amount that can add.

Take for example a 2d6HA with armour piercing.

Use that with a martial strike and it beceomes a 4d6HA with armour piercing, right?

If you have (say) +2DCs with martial arts does that then become a 6d6HA with armour piercing, or does it max out at 4d6 if you want to retain the advantage?

Thank you.


You take the full Martial Arts damage and add the HA damage to it; in your example, the attack would do 6d6 AP damage.

There you go, the ayes have it. The full maneuver damage is added to the HA, including both extra DCs and the maneuver component itself.

[radioKAOS]

There you go, the ayes have it. The full maneuver damage is added to the HA, including both extra DCs and the maneuver component itself.

Um, wow. Now that makes Martial Artists very powerful for very low cost.

Hero Designer allows me to buy HA at 1pip in a multipower. Is this legal?

If so, then it is possible for a MA to have a whole slew of advantaged attacks for 10 points or so...

Assuming I have 10STR, +5DCs and a few Martial Moves, let's use Quick Strike (+2DCs) for ease...

Then I buy:
5 MA Tricks

1u Ghost Hand: Hand-To-Hand Attack +1 point, Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2) (3 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 1

1u Slicing Knife Hand: Hand-To-Hand Attack +1 point, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (3 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 1

1u Pushing Hit: Hand-To-Hand Attack +1 point, Double Knockback (+3/4) (3 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 1

1u Whirlwind Attack: Hand-To-Hand Attack +1 point, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (2" Radius; +1 1/4) (5 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 1

1u Defensive Offense: Hand-To-Hand Attack +1 point, Damage Shield (+1/2) (3 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 1

- all of a sudden I have 7 1/2D6 Affects Desolid, 7 1/2D6 AP, 7 1/2D6 DKB, 7 1/2D6 AoE 2"Rad, and a 7 1/2D6 Damage Shield... all for 10points!!!

On top of the 20pts for the DCs and 4pts for the Quick Strike, a total of 34 pts...

[Fox1]

There you go, the ayes have it. The full maneuver damage is added to the HA, including both extra DCs and the maneuver component itself.

Just because it's official doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[Sean Waters]

Well, slap me and call me Sally.

I have to say, as RadioKAOS has pointed out, we seem to be pulling into abuse central with this particular rule.

I can not see what possible balance need this ruling is designed to address, oh me of little imagination....

[Hawksmoor]

I have said it before and here is the rehash:

Martial Arts are the most easily abused mechanic in the game and no PC or NPC is going to be allowed to take it without a damned good reason. Good at combat you say? Buy Skill Levels.

Hawksmoor

[radioKAOS]

Well there is the "buy the Weapon Element for each" school of thought, though that doesn't really balance things out...

Of course there's also the "pretidigitator" school of thought where the 4DCs at +2 would actually need you to purchase 12 MA DCs...

which seems to even it out a little better...

lol, of course, now we're arguing that MA is more powerful than straight STR, so I almost find this thread funny as we've been arguing the opposite for the past while... maybe, somehow in this wacky world of HERO, it's somehow balanced???

*shrug*

[Zed-F]

I have said it before and here is the rehash:

Martial Arts are the most easily abused mechanic in the game and no PC or NPC is going to be allowed to take it without a damned good reason. Good at combat you say? Buy Skill Levels.

Hawksmoor
Bah.

Anything can be abused. Outright banning something just because it's possible to abuse it is silly, you'd have to ban the whole system and go pure Nar storytelling. Just use a little common sense and an eye for what fits in the game that's being run and what doesn't, and you're fine.

Obviously a MP of 1-point HAs would be silly. Under many circumstances, the 2d6 HA with several advantages on it and an extra 8 dice from STR, maneuvers, and extra DCs might not fit very well either. On the other hand, if other characters in the game are running around with 15+DC attacks... it probably won't really hurt anything (depending, of course, on exactly what advantages we're talking about here.) 10d6 attacks are barely enough to scratch foes that are built to stand up to 15d6 attacks.

Excercise judgement. If it fits, let the PC wear it. If not, throw it away.

[Sean Waters]

I have said it before and here is the rehash:

Martial Arts are the most easily abused mechanic in the game and no PC or NPC is going to be allowed to take it without a damned good reason. Good at combat you say? Buy Skill Levels.

Hawksmoor

You have a point! I think removing this particular ruling and limiting the amount of extra DCs you can buy (or saying simply 'no' to extra DCs) would go a long way to restoring balance.

Perhaps we are in a Star Wars analogy: Steve Long is The Chosen One who will bring balance to The Hero, but first he'll take it to a very dark place indeed (check out 5ERs cover: we are not on a journey to the light side!).

Mind you, if that is right, and Steve is Darth, who is The Emperor? George MacDonald? And R2D2 would be....er, I'll stop now, shall I? :)

[Zed-F]

lol, of course, now we're arguing that MA is more powerful than straight STR, so I almost find this thread funny as we've been arguing the opposite for the past while... maybe, somehow in this wacky world of HERO, it's somehow balanced???
I believe that was the point, yes... :D

[Sean Waters]

Bah.

Anything can be abused....

....Excercise judgement....

Oh I exercised it: it died of a heart attack. (Or was that when I was abusing it?)

[Zed-F]

Oh I exercised it: it died of a heart attack. (Or was that when I was abusing it?)
Probably the latter. ;)

[ghost-angel]

Perhaps this is simply an arguement in favor of enforcing DC Caps in games? Sure, it may be cheaper - but that just means they have to buy more skills...

Surprisingly, not many characters take MA in our game... Maybe I'll start.

Of course - this may balance itself out point wise on a character sheet that an MA is by design a HtH fighter and should now purchase much higher Def. and many buy a higher Speed.

I don't think outright bannign a tactic like this is good - perhaps just keeping a very close eye on it and working with the player to keep everything in perspective to the game at hand.

[Sean Waters]

The problem seems to be, to me, that you can now make your martial arts armour piercing for just a few points, for example. Most martial artists don't have very high strength, so building a HA with advantages that covers the stregth side of it makes the whole attack have the advantage.

Cost wise, too, highly advantaged HA become real bargains with martail arts and added DCs...an example...

RedFist (blood soaked martial artist)

Strength 10 0 END (5 points)
Hand Attack 2d6 0 END NND Does BODY (35) HtH attack (23 points)
Martial arts (10 points to include martial strike)
+6 Damage Classes (24 points)

So total cost would be 62 points for a 10d6 NND punch that does BODY, adds 2 to DCV and doesn't cost any END. You could even do it cheaper, but what the heck. I trust I am not alone in wondering what in the name of BeeBop-A-LooBop is going on?

Look I appreciate that we should all be exercising natural restraint and no sane GM would allow this construct anyway, but why is it even here?

[Zed-F]

Because it may be appropriate for some advantages, and for some games.

A martial artist who can strike any opponent in a radius around him *before* they can strike at him is very in-genre for certain games. Ever seen Kill Bill, where The Bride fights the Crazy 88s? If she couldn't strike before them every time then there's no way she could have survived that fight. Even a 10d6 NND Does Body might be appropriate for certain Wuxia games, if the defense is common/in-genre enough.

You could build a character with 10d6 NND Does Body anyway. The only difference is how much it costs to do so, so there's no reason to get one's panties in a knot. If it doesn't fit in your Silver Age Champs game, fine, disallow it. It might be perfectly fine in Bob's Wuxia game.

[Sean Waters]

Because it may be appropriate for some advantages, and for some games.

A martial artist who can strike any opponent in a radius around him *before* they can strike at him is very in-genre for certain games. Ever seen Kill Bill, where The Bride fights the Crazy 88s? If she couldn't strike before them every time then there's no way she could have survived that fight. Even a 10d6 NND Does Body might be appropriate for certain Wuxia games, if the defense is common/in-genre enough.

You could build a character with 10d6 NND Does Body anyway. The only difference is how much it costs to do so, so there's no reason to get one's panties in a knot. If it doesn't fit in your Silver Age Champs game, fine, disallow it. It might be perfectly fine in Bob's Wuxia game.

Hmm, the trouble with that approach is....

1. that, unless you have different guidelines for heroes and villains, the Crazy 88s can do that stuff too.

2. the ability to do something in-game is no the issue here, we appear to agree: we KNOW you can build some kind of area effect damage shield effect: the issue is how much it should cost. There is no justification I can think of for having that kind of power cost so little, whatever the genre, COMPARED to other powers.

In summary this is not about the ability to create an effct or even, really, about the cost of it: it is about the imbalance being able to do it this cheaply brings to The Force. I mean, The Game.

[radioKAOS]

The problem seems to be, to me, that you can now make your martial arts armour piercing for just a few points, for example. Most martial artists don't have very high strength, so building a HA with advantages that covers the stregth side of it makes the whole attack have the advantage.

Cost wise, too, highly advantaged HA become real bargains with martail arts and added DCs...an example...

RedFist (blood soaked martial artist)

Strength 10 0 END (5 points)
Hand Attack 2d6 0 END NND Does BODY (35) HtH attack (23 points)
Martial arts (10 points to include martial strike)
+6 Damage Classes (24 points)

So total cost would be 62 points for a 10d6 NND punch that does BODY, adds 2 to DCV and doesn't cost any END. You could even do it cheaper, but what the heck. I trust I am not alone in wondering what in the name of BeeBop-A-LooBop is going on?

Look I appreciate that we should all be exercising natural restraint and no sane GM would allow this construct anyway, but why is it even here?


Granted, but what now? Not allowing the DCs to count at all seems to throw the favour way back towards STR again... The brick wielding a katana/staff/etc causes FAR more damage than a MA does with the same weapon? Not sure if I like that, and it's certainly not 'in genre.'

I'm really leaning towards prestidigitator's way of thinking re:"advantage graded DCs"... seems to be the fair way to do things, IMHO.

[ghost-angel]

To answer the question of what it's doing there ... well, because the System is Non-Restrictive. The Game therefore has to be.

In a System that attempts to allow for anything certain really :nonp: and :ugly: type things are going to slip in. There are two places to control them - the System and the Game.

I perfer the Game, that way someone else can use it in their Game and I can not use it in mine or vice-versa.

[Fox1]

Perhaps we are in a Star Wars analogy: Steve Long is The Chosen One who will bring balance to The Hero, but first he'll take it to a very dark place indeed (check out 5ERs cover: we are not on a journey to the light side!).

I find great amusement in this comparison. But it's likely due to my low opinion of the newer Star Wars movies.

[prestidigitator]

I'm really leaning towards prestidigitator's way of thinking re:"advantage graded DCs"... seems to be the fair way to do things, IMHO.
Yeah. Especially for Extra DCs purchased for Martial Arts, which increase the Base Damage. I'm pretty okay with CSLs and Maneuvers ignoring Advantages, as they are subject to the Doubling Rule and have various drawbacks: CSLs are two for one; Maneuvers have a maximum value and impose penalties. The was Str adds to Advantaged HAs is a little wacky, but I can probably live with it for now.

I posted a very specific question to Steve Long about this. See the Are Extra DCs for Martial Arts Affected by Advantages? (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35533) thread on the Rules Questions board.

[Zed-F]

Hmm, the trouble with that approach is....

1. that, unless you have different guidelines for heroes and villains, the Crazy 88s can do that stuff too.
So? If it's in genre for O-Ren Ishii to have that sort of ability, why shouldn't she? This is a point in favour of these sorts of abilities being fine for campaigns in which they are appropriate, not a point against.


2. the ability to do something in-game is no the issue here, we appear to agree: we KNOW you can build some kind of area effect damage shield effect: the issue is how much it should cost. There is no justification I can think of for having that kind of power cost so little, whatever the genre, COMPARED to other powers.
Because a Wuxia game is supposed to be more about martial arts than it is about really ultra strong characters or about guys who can lob balls of fire? Those kinds of powers certainly can exist in Wuxia games, look at Ken and Ryu. But they're not genre-defining; the martial arts is. If you want everyone to have an over-the-top martial arts package and still be able to afford the points to take some signature abilities other than martial arts, this is one way to do it. Just draw the line where it's appropriate for the game you're running. It's really that simple.

[radioKAOS]

I posted a very specific question to Steve Long about this. See the Are Extra DCs for Martial Arts Affected by Advantages? (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35533) thread on the Rules Questions board.

Saw that, thanks, anxiously awaiting his reply...

[Sean Waters]

So? If it's in genre for O-Ren Ishii to have that sort of ability, why shouldn't she? This is a point in favour of these sorts of abilities being fine for campaigns in which they are appropriate, not a point against.


A martial artist who can strike any opponent in a radius around him *before* they can strike at him is very in-genre for certain games. Ever seen Kill Bill, where The Bride fights the Crazy 88s? If she couldn't strike before them every time then there's no way she could have survived that fight. Even a 10d6 NND Does Body might be appropriate for certain Wuxia games, if the defense is common/in-genre enough.

The Bride is only better than them because that is how she is built: it is not a feature of the system



Because a Wuxia game is supposed to be more about martial arts than it is about really ultra strong characters or about guys who can lob balls of fire? Those kinds of powers certainly can exist in Wuxia games, look at Ken and Ryu. But they're not genre-defining; the martial arts is. If you want everyone to have an over-the-top martial arts package and still be able to afford the points to take some signature abilities other than martial arts, this is one way to do it. Just draw the line where it's appropriate for the game you're running. It's really that simple.

This is not a wuxia game. If you like this particular slant on martial arts I'd have no problem with it being included in an optional rule for wuxia games, but I strongly object to it being the baseline way of doing it in the 'generic' system. If you don't want poeple to do it, don't give them the option (cf Eden. That worked out well.)

[Sean Waters]

To answer the question of what it's doing there ... well, because the System is Non-Restrictive. The Game therefore has to be.

In a System that attempts to allow for anything certain really :nonp: and :ugly: type things are going to slip in. There are two places to control them - the System and the Game.

I perfer the Game, that way someone else can use it in their Game and I can not use it in mine or vice-versa.


The system is restrictive, in oh so many ways. It has to be or it is not a system it is simple imaginative play or poor literature. Nothing against either but it is not why I bought Hero: I wanted a common meeting place for those imaginations. What the system does for me, is provide a range of balanced options, and allows me to adjust the balance if I want to.

Can you help me with this: why it should be so much cheaper, as far as charater creation points go, to cause damage this way than any other way? How does that help? By your own argument it is restricting every option other than martial arts: surely if you WANT people in game to favour MA over all other options, you should be doing what you suggest - restrict all the other options in your game, rather than having a system set up to do that from the word go.

[Zed-F]

This is not a wuxia game.
It is if you want it to be.


If you like this particular slant on martial arts I'd have no problem with it being included in an optional rule for wuxia games, but I strongly object to it being the baseline way of doing it in the 'generic' system. If you don't want poeple to do it, don't give them the option (cf Eden. That worked out well.)
That is the way it is. I am not a proponent of house rules in general as I like a certain amount of portability in my character designs -- which I imagine is a common theme in PBEM play. If you like house rules, by all means change the way it behaves by default for your games. However, I don't think Steve is going to change the rules on your say-so. I build characters according to how the rules actually work, not according to how someone else might like them to work. After all, I don't know whose opinion I would be working off of until I actually submit that character to a game, now do I?

This form of potential munchkinism is not really any more difficult to control than a 1" megascaled superleap UAA. Moreover, it's useful from a point of view of balancing STR, when used in moderation. I'm just as happy to leave it there until Steve does decide to change his mind.

[NuSoardGraphite]

The problem seems to be, to me, that you can now make your martial arts armour piercing for just a few points, for example. Most martial artists don't have very high strength, so building a HA with advantages that covers the stregth side of it makes the whole attack have the advantage.

Cost wise, too, highly advantaged HA become real bargains with martail arts and added DCs...an example...

RedFist (blood soaked martial artist)

Strength 10 0 END (5 points)
Hand Attack 2d6 0 END NND Does BODY (35) HtH attack (23 points)
Martial arts (10 points to include martial strike)
+6 Damage Classes (24 points)

So total cost would be 62 points for a 10d6 NND punch that does BODY, adds 2 to DCV and doesn't cost any END. You could even do it cheaper, but what the heck. I trust I am not alone in wondering what in the name of BeeBop-A-LooBop is going on?

Look I appreciate that we should all be exercising natural restraint and no sane GM would allow this construct anyway, but why is it even here?

Thats a simple fix!

I treat Hand Attack exactly as I treat Hand Killing Attack. You cannot add more DC's to the attack than the original base DC. Thus a 2D6 Hand Attack max's out at 4D6N.

You see, I don't have that problem of equating Hand Attack with Strength. I consider Hand Attack to be the normal damage equivalent to Hand Killing Attack, just as Energy Blast is the normal damage equivalent to Ranged Killing Attack. I don't even allow people to use that custom limitation Hand attack -1/2 because I think its silly.

[ghost-angel]

The system is restrictive, in oh so many ways. It has to be or it is not a system it is simple imaginative play or poor literature. Nothing against either but it is not why I bought Hero: I wanted a common meeting place for those imaginations. What the system does for me, is provide a range of balanced options, and allows me to adjust the balance if I want to.

Can you help me with this: why it should be so much cheaper, as far as charater creation points go, to cause damage this way than any other way? How does that help? By your own argument it is restricting every option other than martial arts: surely if you WANT people in game to favour MA over all other options, you should be doing what you suggest - restrict all the other options in your game, rather than having a system set up to do that from the word go.

you're power gaming. stop that.

stop building characters like they're just numbers. I want that I'll take a calculus class. I'm here to Role Play. not Roll Play.

Martial Arts isn't shooting fire from your eyes - so you wouldn't purchase that if you want a character that shoots fire from their eyes. It doesn't matter if it costs less.

And heavy MA games tend towards Heroic Campaigns with lower point totals so the pricing is fit for that, where you're less like to see AP HAs and such.

do what Hawksmoor does: Limit, Control, Examine the GAME.

[radioKAOS]

Agreed we as players and Gms need to make sure balance is upheld.

My point is that the ruling Presti gave keeps that balance rather nicely. I hope it becomes official, we'll see.

[Sean Waters]

you're power gaming. stop that.

stop building characters like they're just numbers. I want that I'll take a calculus class. I'm here to Role Play. not Roll Play.

Martial Arts isn't shooting fire from your eyes - so you wouldn't purchase that if you want a character that shoots fire from their eyes. It doesn't matter if it costs less.

And heavy MA games tend towards Heroic Campaigns with lower point totals so the pricing is fit for that, where you're less like to see AP HAs and such.

do what Hawksmoor does: Limit, Control, Examine the GAME.


I'm not power gaming, I'm discussing potential rules abuse, and there is a difference. I have never felt martial arts to be imbalanced or in need of extra advantages to make them compete effectively with strength. They are not simply a strength replacement tool: they do qualatitively different things:eek:

I am dismayed that this is now another wrinkle in the overly complicated 'how you add damage together' rules. I have absolutely no idea why it is necessary.:eek:

I am concerned that you now add any advantage you like to martial arts for 2 or 3 points (HA 1 pip Area effect one hex, doubled twice, 0 END, NND = 3 points and you can now nerve strike everyone in a 4 hex radius) and that is at odds with the balance considerations through the rest of the game. it doesn't even have a stop sign, unlike UAA and suchlike, and 3 points is as much a bargain in a heroic game as in a superhero game.:eek:

I am mystified as to why anyone who doesn't want to powergame should think this is a good idea. Let's not have any nonsense about wuxia. The system doesn't need this to 'do' that genre, anymore than it needs superpowers discounted to 'do' a superhero game.:eek:

NuSordGraphite says limit it to twice base damage, and there have been other suggestions for applying kerbs to this particular (to me) problem, but that doesn't get at the heart of it: it is another inconsistency and complication that is simply not needed.:eek:

Or is it? I can't think of a good reason, but maybe the design philosophy of the game has one. Unfortunately, that is one thing we will never know.:cry:

[prestidigitator]

Agreed we as players and Gms need to make sure balance is upheld.

My point is that the ruling Presti gave keeps that balance rather nicely. I hope it becomes official, we'll see.
Unfortunately it isn't official. Steve's answer indicates that Extra DCs for Martial Arts adds to damage just like any Martial Arts, which means they ignore Advantages completely. I will have to think carefully, therefore, about whether I implement a house rule to reverse this or rule that Extra DCs for Martial Arts do not add to Base Damage. It is my firm belief that one of those must change in order to have any kind of semblance of balance.

[ghost-angel]

I'm not power gaming, I'm discussing potential rules abuse, and there is a difference. I have never felt martial arts to be imbalanced or in need of extra advantages to make them compete effectively with strength. They are not simply a strength replacement tool: they do qualatitively different things:eek:

I am dismayed that this is now another wrinkle in the overly complicated 'how you add damage together' rules. I have absolutely no idea why it is necessary.:eek:

I am concerned that you now add any advantage you like to martial arts for 2 or 3 points (HA 1 pip Area effect one hex, doubled twice, 0 END, NND = 3 points and you can now nerve strike everyone in a 4 hex radius) and that is at odds with the balance considerations through the rest of the game. it doesn't even have a stop sign, unlike UAA and suchlike, and 3 points is as much a bargain in a heroic game as in a superhero game.:eek:

I am mystified as to why anyone who doesn't want to powergame should think this is a good idea. Let's not have any nonsense about wuxia. The system doesn't need this to 'do' that genre, anymore than it needs superpowers discounted to 'do' a superhero game.:eek:

NuSordGraphite says limit it to twice base damage, and there have been other suggestions for applying kerbs to this particular (to me) problem, but that doesn't get at the heart of it: it is another inconsistency and complication that is simply not needed.:eek:

Or is it? I can't think of a good reason, but maybe the design philosophy of the game has one. Unfortunately, that is one thing we will never know.:cry:

All very good questions...

MA are priced along the lines of Skills, which is where they came from. They aren't powers and don't seem to be priced as Powers are priced.

The problem we run into is the Hand Attack construct, not the pricing of MAs or anything else.

Since Hand Attack can be looked at one of two ways: STR, Hand Attack Only (which is, I believe, the Canon Though) you are adding directly to your STR with a Hand Attack only to dertermine how many dice you roll to hurt someone. Since there is no upper limit to the ammount of STR you can use beyond Campaign Guidelines (Active Point caps, DC caps, etc...) you run into the STR+MA+HA = Full Attack, quickly getting out of hand if you let it, for relatively little cost.

If you assume Hand Attack means Energy Blast, No Range (not what it is) then you could realisticly assume that you can no more than double a HA power, thus creating a HA+MA+STR = Full Attack (no more than twice the HA Max).

Personally, if you want to take care of the 'problem' I would do this:
- Don't adjust the cost of MA, this way they work for both Heroic and Superheroic Games.
- Add the MA damage to either a STR Att or a HA Att, not both. This way if your Superheroic MA wants a large damage attack he is looking to buy more HA, his STR has no bearing on the issue. They still must follow guidelines.
- In this case you could conceivable reprice HA to 5pt/D6 to match Energy Blast and become more consistent in the rules. Possibly not.
- Heroic games where a HA Power is usually not used still gets to use the Characters STR to add the MA Dmg to, probably still not exceeding guidelines.

I haven't done any real math, but I have a feeling that a MA that can only add HA and not HA+STR to his MA is now paying as much or more than everyone else. He has to buy his STR like an Energy Blaster for STR use, and it has no bearing on his DCs. He has to buy his Attack (Hand Attack in this case) like the Energy Blaster does (EB in that case) AND he has to buy a bunch of maneuvers to make him look cool (the Energy Blaster is purchasing Ranged SLs to compensate, and probably still spending less).

I have no idea how elegant or practical this solution might be.

[radioKAOS]

Unfortunately it isn't official. Steve's answer indicates that Extra DCs for Martial Arts adds to damage just like any Martial Arts, which means they ignore Advantages completely. I will have to think carefully, therefore, about whether I implement a house rule to reverse this or rule that Extra DCs for Martial Arts do not add to Base Damage. It is my firm belief that one of those must change in order to have any kind of semblance of balance.

Yeah it certainly seems far enough out of balance to warrant a house rule. I personally like the 'DCs must take advantages into account' Rule. Of course then I also think that STR used in such a fashion should require buying the naked advantage for that as well... That seems only fair.

The other thing to add maybe is having to buy the Weapon Element for each 'attack mode'. It's not a huge difference in points [+1pt/attack mode] but it makes sense really. Learning to Autofire your Offensive Strike is a heck of a lot different than learning to make your Spear Hand Armour Piercing, both of which are far different than a normal strike.

I like the idea of being able to create Martial Attacks that have advantages. I've been fiddling with how to do that properly since 4th Ed. Of course, now that "Autofire Kick" and "Armour Piercing Spear Hand" are deadly and CHEAP.

[prestidigitator]

Yeah it certainly seems far enough out of balance to warrant a house rule. I personally like the 'DCs must take advantages into account' Rule. Of course then I also think that STR used in such a fashion should require buying the naked advantage for that as well... That seems only fair.

The other thing to add maybe is having to buy the Weapon Element for each 'attack mode'. It's not a huge difference in points [+1pt/attack mode] but it makes sense really. Learning to Autofire your Offensive Strike is a heck of a lot different than learning to make your Spear Hand Armour Piercing, both of which are far different than a normal strike.

I like the idea of being able to create Martial Attacks that have advantages. I've been fiddling with how to do that properly since 4th Ed. Of course, now that "Autofire Kick" and "Armour Piercing Spear Hand" are deadly and CHEAP.
Yes. At 4 Active Points per DC (I say Active Points because that will never go up with Advantages) that work just as if you had increased the dice by paying more Base Points, it is completely ridiculous!

[radioKAOS]

Yes. At 4 Active Points per DC (I say Active Points because that will never go up with Advantages) that work just as if you had increased the dice by paying more Base Points, it is completely ridiculous!

*sigh* Agreed, of course.

I guess, really it's just up to us to keep balance in our games... seems a shame something so simple is so out of whack.