open door spell

[swobeas]

Heya!

I have just been thinking of how to design a adventurer-classic: the open door spell.

My fist thought goes in the direction of transform.
cosmetic transform (locked door into unlocked door) or do you think that this is already a minor transform?:(

How do you do this classic spell :rolleyes:

[Super Squirrel]

There are a couple of ways to do that.

Minor Transform 4d6, Locked Door to Unlocked Door could to the trick.

Also you could do it as Lockpicking 23- (31 Active Points) plus Telekenisis (2 STR) (3 Active Points)

I put the Tranform at 4d6 to give it reasonable control over magical doors and doors of unusual material but it isn't as good as the Skill Power version. The telekenisis is necessary to bypass having picks and because it prevents lock based traps from affecting the caster.

[Markdoc]

The other possibility is simply tunneling (leave passage open behind or close as you like) limited for use only on doors. You'd need to buy enough to go through extra DEF - otherwise you could small wooden doors but not steel ones.

The special effect is simply that the door opens. :) If you choose to close the door, it is still locked after you have gone through.

cheers, Mark

[Basil]

If what you want is specifically an unlocked door, the Transform method is the most obvious. Lockpicking + TK is another good method.

If what you want is getting to the other side of the door, then Tunnelling works. So does Teleportation 1 Hex, Increased Mass (x16), Only From One Side Of A Door To The Other (-1 1/2) (22 Active Points; Real Cost 9) plus one Fixed Location, defined as one hex straight ahead (1 point). Total cost: 10 points.

The problem of Teleporting into solid object(s) is left as an exercise for the fiendish GM. :eg:

[Curufea]

Teleportation could be modified like the FTL drives in Star Hero - Must cross intervening space (I think it's a -1/2 limitation). You could define the SFX as "appearing to open and close the door"

[Super Squirrel]

I'll be honest why I don't like the Teleportation or Tunnelling version.

First, the door itself could be trapped for when it opens. Both "bypass" the actual opening of the door. Though of course a GM could rule otherwise.

Second, just because you want to open the door, doesn't mean you want to step inside the room. Both power constructs mentioned are Movement based powers and thus, require physical movement into the room.

[LordGhee]

Great minds think alike, I was trying to figure out an open door effect for a Jedi which a wizard could use also.

when the "spell is used the door opens and then closes' behind the player"


now TK if used would need to be indirect, and a way to sense the lock or handle ect.

I with Super Squirrel in that telaport and tunnelling means movement. unless you buy range on the tunneling (this could be a wombat power).

the skill lockpicking you need to get tools ect on the lock mechanism unless you by the tk fine ect.

I was thinking of constructing a transform, but how much body to transform to open the door (are bigger doors have more body? do lock doors have more body?)

this got me thinking what is a wizard lock?

[Markdoc]

I was thinking of constructing a transform, but how much body to transform to open the door (are bigger doors have more body? do lock doors have more body?)

There are as noted, several ways to do it - each has its failings. Yes, bigger doors have more body (as do steel ones, probably) so transform will open small, wooden doors more easily than large brass-bound ones.

TK either requires additionally the lockpicking skill and fine manipulation - or simply uses brute force to smash the door open. The former of course won't open magically barred doors (or even conventionally locked doors that don't have a keyhole on your side) and the latter is expensive (and also a little crude :)) I don't think you need indirect unless you are trying to open a door which isn't more or less right in front of you.

The problems with movement-based powers have already been noted. One point though - with tunnelling there is nothing that says you have to move *through* an opened hex. You just need to be *in* the hex and several characters published use exactly this for the ninja hide-in-the-dirt trick. So you could open a door (unless it was more than 2 metres thick) and look through. Still, it might not be what you want.

As for wizard lock, the standard version is usualy just TK, to hold the door closed. TK with lockpicking won't help there, but brute-force TK will - at that point, it just becomes a question of who has the most oomph.

cheers, Mark

[swobeas]

Reading your posts started my mind spinning and now I am thinking of not transforming the door, but just transform the lock into an open one.
Of course there would be different heavy locks with a different ratio for BODY but that could reflect the fact that opening a lock isn't always the same :cool:

What I don't like about the movement powers is, that it would leave a closed door behind.

If the mage should get on the other side while the door stays locked, he could also buy a limited form of desolification then...:thumbup:

[mudpyr8]

Tunneling 1" through 3 DEF material, Fill In, Ranged (+1/2), UAA (+1) (52 Active Points); Restricted Path (-1), OIF (Door of Opportunity; -1/2), no Noncombat movement (-1/4); Cost 19 Points

That will get through any door. Metal or Stone doors would require a more powerful version.

Metaphysically, what is the reason a spell can just "open a locked door"? Magically turning the knob makes sense, pulling makes sense, but subtle arbitrary manipulations of a lock mechanism does not. I'd say either force the door open or bashi it down. A skilled locksmith could possibly use magic to manipulate the tumblers and such, but magic really then is just an enabling tool and not a bonus/enhancement. If a spell can just unlock and open a door without any knowledge requirement on the wizard, that is more like a wish spell than anything, in which case transform or extra dimensional movement (to a place where the door is open) is the way to go.

[bblackmoor]

Second, just because you want to open the door, doesn't mean you want to step inside the room. Both power constructs mentioned are Movement based powers and thus, require physical movement into the room.

Oooh, good point.

[bblackmoor]

this got me thinking what is a wizard lock?

That's really a question that needs to be answered before one tries to create a spell to "open" such a lock. If a wizard lock is nothing more than TK on the door (or an Entangle with weird modifiers) to keep it closed, then an "open door" spell would need to be able to break through that -- or dispel it.

In a setting where spells that lock and unlock doors (chests, etc.) are commonly known, chances are that there would be at least two types of "open door" spells: one that magically picks the lock, slides the bar on the other side, and so forth; and another, which magically unravels whatever magic might be holding the door closed. TK + lockpicking is the most straightforward way to approximate the formar effect. Dispel or Suppress would probably be the best way to approximate the latter (that way you do not need to know exactly what effect was used to wizardly-lock the door).

[Killer Shrike]

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Knock

A damage causing variant that just blows the door up instead:
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Destructive%20Knock
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Improved%20Destructive%20Knock
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Superior%20Destructive%20Knock
http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Supreme%20Destructive%20Knock


You could also just use TK with enough STR to force a lock.

[prestidigitator]

A skilled locksmith could possibly use magic to manipulate the tumblers and such, but magic really then is just an enabling tool and not a bonus/enhancement. If a spell can just unlock and open a door without any knowledge requirement on the wizard, that is more like a wish spell than anything, in which case transform or extra dimensional movement (to a place where the door is open) is the way to go.
I think that is why most such spells tend to have Lockpicking built-in, rather than simply conveying a bonus. It means the wizard does not actually need to know how to pick locks (he or she does not necessarily have the skill outside the use of the spell).

I like this version of a Wizard Lock:
Transform: 3d6 Major, door to wall, heals back at 1 Body/day (equivalent to a 30 Rec); Invisible Power Effects: all but magical senses, hides effect (+3/2); Limited Target: door (-2);
That's the uber-powered version. :)

[Killer Shrike]

Metaphysically, what is the reason a spell can just "open a locked door"? Magically turning the knob makes sense, pulling makes sense, but subtle arbitrary manipulations of a lock mechanism does not. I'd say either force the door open or bashi it down.

A skilled locksmith could possibly use magic to manipulate the tumblers and such, but magic really then is just an enabling tool and not a bonus/enhancement.

If a spell can just unlock and open a door without any knowledge requirement on the wizard, that is more like a wish spell than anything, in which case transform or extra dimensional movement (to a place where the door is open) is the way to go.

Not sure what your issue is; the Spell can just grant Lockpicking rather than a bonus to Lockpicking.

And don't get me started on my standard "EDM is not an Alter Reality Power" rant. It's not pretty.

[Captain Obvious]

Whew! That was close!

Hey guys. I just got here from another dimension where Killer Shrike was going on a rant about EDM...

[TheTemplar]

I'd have to agree that conferring the Lockpicking Skill via the spell is the best way to simulate "Knock" from DnD... IF that's what you're trying to do. The real inherent benefit there is that it not only would work on doors, but also on locked chests, or any other device with a lock.

The Transform method would work as mentioned (assuming the transform is defined Locked lock into Unlocked lock,) locks w/ more body COULD negate the spell, whereas by granting the Lockpicking skill (just for the duration of the spell, which I would presume to be instant.. perhaps w/ a small area effect to unlock all locks within x Hexes of the caster) then you could just apply whatever modifiers are appropriate for the locks to the Lockpicking roll, as you would if a thief PC were trying to pick them open.

Personally, I'd go w/ Lockpicking, but I think both would suit your end purposes.. If I'm understanding your end purposes correctly.

[swobeas]

thx for your input guys, I have a lot of ideas how to do the spell now :thumbup:

[LordGhee]

I got a problem with the lockpicking skill way,

example

wizard: I cast lockpicking skill spell.
gm: (grinning)
fighter: great --- where your tools
Wizard: tools?
gm: (grinning)
fighter: yea you need tools to lockpick a door.

a little time later
gm: (grinning)
Wizard: alright using the sliverware and wire I have tools now so I . . . . .
gm: (grinning)
Wizard: the door is just a simple metal door with a handle and no key hole . . .
gm: (grinning)
Wizard: so I can not pick the lock cause I can not get to the lock, so with this skill . . .
gm: (grinning) you know for certain that you cannot open this door from this side.
Wizard; I blow the door. . .

A spell that cast a skill gives you the skill, not the tools or the ablity the access what you need to do, the skill does not open the door, the use of the skill opens the door.
:)

[Killer Shrike]

I havent looked at this in a while and don't have my books available, but IIRC you take a (large) skill penalty for not using tools and a sufficiently high Lockpicking roll can overcome it.

[bblackmoor]

gm: (grinning)

Another great example of why some people should not be allowed to GM.

Edit:

Just to clarify, I am not referring to a GM exercising their privilege of vetoing a "GM's option" power. I am referring to a GM who has apparently allowed a player to go to the time and trouble of creating a spell designed for a specific purpose, but who knows all the while that they intend to nerf that spell and make it useless, and then takes pleasure in the fact that they have done so. That's a bad GM. (Cue the peanut gallery, who always criticize me for calling a spade a spade.)

[Super Squirrel]

I got a problem with the lockpicking skill way,

example

wizard: I cast lockpicking skill spell.
gm: (grinning)
fighter: great --- where your tools
Wizard: tools?
gm: (grinning)
fighter: yea you need tools to lockpick a door.

a little time later
gm: (grinning)
Wizard: alright using the sliverware and wire I have tools now so I . . . . .
gm: (grinning)
Wizard: the door is just a simple metal door with a handle and no key hole . . .
gm: (grinning)
Wizard: so I can not pick the lock cause I can not get to the lock, so with this skill . . .
gm: (grinning) you know for certain that you cannot open this door from this side.
Wizard; I blow the door. . .

A spell that cast a skill gives you the skill, not the tools or the ablity the access what you need to do, the skill does not open the door, the use of the skill opens the door.
:)
Lockpicking. Page 64 of Fifth Revised:
Characters must have lockpicks or other equipment to use Lockpicking (or, at the GM's option, use an appropriate Power, such as Telekinesis).

[Killer Shrike]

Yeah, Super Squirrel has it. I would consider Lockpicking as a Power granted by a Spell to be "an appropriate Power".

[Hugh Neilson]

Just to clarify, I am not referring to a GM exercising their privilege of vetoing a "GM's option" power. I am referring to a GM who has apparently allowed a player to go to the time and trouble of creating a spell designed for a specific purpose, but who knows all the while that they intend to nerf that spell and make it useless, and then takes pleasure in the fact that they have done so. That's a bad GM. (Cue the peanut gallery, who always criticize me for calling a spade a spade.)

This is bang on. If you're going to disallow the ability, disallow it up front or explain what the player could purchase to get the job done.

Don't let them (or lead them on to) spend points on an ability that you're just going to render inert anyway.

It's funny how quick we often are to note that a limitation that's not limiting saves no points and a disadvantage that does not disadvantage the character is worth nothing, but how slowly we apply the corollary that a character should not be required, or perhaps even allowed, to pay points for an ability which is worthless.

[bblackmoor]

For comparison, my own "journeyman level" door-opening spell:

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Spell_-_Access_Of_The_Adept

(The "master level" and "archmage level" spells are better.)

[Curufea]

The problem with Hero, in general is 2 fold-

1) There are always many ways of doing anything - characteristic, skill, talent, power and finally a transform if you can't think of anything
2) There are many creative players of Hero who like discussing things on the board and will suggest things just because it hasn't been talked about yet - not because it may actually be helpful :)

[Basil]

Teleportation could be modified like the FTL drives in Star Hero - Must cross intervening space (I think it's a -1/2 limitation). You could define the SFX as "appearing to open and close the door"

Oooo! I like. Yes, that's the way to go, IMO.

And, as others have said, you do have to go though the door, you can't open it and look through, if you're doing Teleport.

Which makes it more interesting, IMO. ;)

[Curufea]

That one would be suitable for a "pass portal" spell, rather than an unlocking spell.

[Outsider]

If you dont like the idea of the spell operating as a skill & it actually moving tumblers and all thatl, how about you just Summon a Lockpicking demon. Slavishly loyal, huge lockpicking skill (enough that he can open any lock in 1 phase, even if it means taking a -10 or -20 to his skill roll to do it so fast), and limited that he will do nothing but open a single lock (per summoning) IF it is right by where he is summoned. The Lockpicking Demon would, of course, have funny shaped claws that worked as all the appropriate tools needed to use Lockpick skill.

Instead of bothering to write up such a creature, though, why not just allow Lockpicking as a straight spell with that as the special effect?

[LordGhee]

I have also seen tunneling and desolidification used for a pass portal spell.

In the last Fantasy Hero Game I was in this spring a greater Demon’s teleport special effect was that the gate and doors to the castle started to open and then the monster arrived in a blur. We knew where it was going to for we could follow the opening doors. Great effect., bad demon.

Well what I was pointing out that to me, is that lock picking alone is not enough. Tk can be used as a substitute for tools as Super Squirrel pointed out. But TK is inherently clumsy (229 2nd col bottom 5ER) I would in most cases require the fine manipulation adder (page 230 1st column top) be needed to work the lock (unless it was a big clumsy lockJ).

And bblackmoor’s spell is right on, cool in fact and thanks for the link the site looks great in info and content.

Is this bblackmoor’s web page? ( I have not look at it yet)

Oh and I think it is unwise to make a judgment call on a GM style from a post on a thread asking for help in spell creation, as the example was for illustration. (:nya:) Not all players listen, cooperate and heed the advice of their Game Master. But this is for another thread.

And sorry Captain but what is EDM?

Ducking for it seems to be the thing to do.


(note to outsider my reasoning is that lockpicking is defind as a skill that is used a certain way and in "our group" since we have many GM's we like to be literalists (in gereral). Here in El Paso TX. US. twenty years ago we agreed to be literalists so that we could have a mulitpul GM world and this infulences the many groups that have split off over the years.)

[Captain Obvious]

And sorry Captain but what is EDM?


Extra-Dimensional Movement

[Killer Shrike]

Teleportation could be modified like the FTL drives in Star Hero - Must cross intervening space (I think it's a -1/2 limitation). You could define the SFX as "appearing to open and close the door"
Thats a flavorful idea, but actually the Limitation Must Pass Through Intervening Space is a Lim on Teleport because normally you can use TPort to teleport on the other side of doors, walls, people, and what not. Using it to represent a Power that allows you to TPort to the other side of a door is a complete negation of the very thing that makes it limiting.

Instead, if you want that sort of effect, just take a normal TPort and apply a partial Limitation "Only To TPort To The Other Side Of Doors", and define the SFX as "appearing to open and close door" idea you are going for here. The Lim would be worth about a -1/2, and do the same thing but is more consistent with the rules.

[PhilFleischmann]

I was unable to see bblackmoor's spell. All I could see was the name of the spell, but there appeared to be no write-up. I don't know what happened.

In any event, I have no problem with the Skill-as-Spell construct. I suppose TK and Fine Manipulation should be required, just to make it complete. In fact, I might even allow *just* the Fine Work adder only, since 0 STR is more than enough to manipulate the minute pieces of a lock (unless we're talking about titan-sized locks).

For the Wizard Lock spell, I'd use exactly the same approach:

Lockpicking, (say 30- or some other impressively huge roll), (41 base), only to oppose Lockpicking rolls to unlock (-1), Other limitations to taste: Costs END, Focus, Gestures, Incantations, etc.

Then it works like any skill vs skill contest. If the locking wizard rolls an 11, he's made the roll by 19. The unlocking wizard needs to make the roll by at least as much to overcome the Wizard Lock. And the Lock and the Knock both scale up just like everything else in HERO.

[bblackmoor]

I was unable to see bblackmoor's spell.

Sorry: I did a lot of re-arranging today. It should be stable from here on out (and I'll edit my previous post):

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Spell_-_Access_Of_The_Adept

[bblackmoor]

I suppose TK and Fine Manipulation should be required, just to make it complete. In fact, I might even allow *just* the Fine Work adder only, since 0 STR is more than enough to manipulate the minute pieces of a lock (unless we're talking about titan-sized locks).

I gave the Telekinesis 15 Strength, so that it can also slide bars, lift latches, and turn wheels (even heavy or corroded ones). I also added the "Indirect" modifier, because such things tend to be on the other side of the door.

[PhilFleischmann]

That's a good point. Although in most cases it wouldn't take 15 STR to lift a bar. How strong was the person who barred the door in the first place? Although the extra STR would be handy in some cases. But I'd probably waive the Indirect, since TK is already Indirect in most ways.

[bblackmoor]

Although in most cases it wouldn't take 15 STR to lift a bar. How strong was the person who barred the door in the first place?

Maybe no more than an ordinary person, but there could well have been more than one of them. It may be overkill, but I err on the safe side when making up powers. That goes for Indirect, as well.

[Michael Hopcroft]

why do I have a feeling Transform: Wood to Air would be a really nasty spell to put in the hands of an Orc shaman in a dungeon? You're trying to run away froman overhwelming number of Orcs. "Bar the door!"

"Door? What door??"

"That d--- OK, just how screwed are we?"

"Pretty damn screwed, sir."

[bblackmoor]

why do I have a feeling Transform: Wood to Air would be a really nasty spell to put in the hands of an Orc shaman in a dungeon?

Hmm. I can't think of a rationale for "wood to air", off the top of my head. "Wood to ash", though... I can see an Orc shaman knowing that.

[TheTemplar]

I pity the Treants, Twig Blights, and Oak Golems that dare get in the way of the Wood to Ash caster...

[bblackmoor]

"Wood to ash", though... I can see an Orc shaman knowing that.

And the reversal method is to mix the ashes with water! I can see it now... an Orc tribe that goes into business selling sacks of instant battering rams: "just add water".

[Rapier]

Heya!

I have just been thinking of how to design a adventurer-classic: the open door spell.

My fist thought goes in the direction of transform.
cosmetic transform (locked door into unlocked door) or do you think that this is already a minor transform?:(

How do you do this classic spell :rolleyes:

Depends. Do you mean a spell to OPEN a door that is closed or some kind of knock spell where you are just unlocking it?

If you just want to open the door, go with a little bitty TK.
If you want to unlock the door go with either a Transform or LockPicking.

[Chris Goodwin]

You could do Dispel Lock, but that would break it (this is explicitly stated in the description of Dispel). How about Suppress Lock? Once you reach the full Active Points of the Power, it shuts off, but the owner can turn it back on.

The only question is, what Power are you Suppressing? Could be the lock's BODY?

[LordGhee]

ohh the dispel, surpress angle. good call Chris

after work will look at this. Good thought!

[Chris Goodwin]

ohh the dispel, surpress angle. good call Chris

after work will look at this. Good thought!
Thanks!

I think I figured it out: buy it as Suppress Locksmith Skill. Think of it this way: in general, when you're trying to pick a lock, what you're really doing is rolling a contest of skill between your Lockpicking skill and the locksmith's PS: Locksmith skill. Therefore, the PS: Locksmith is the effective measure of the lock's skill at staying locked.

For magical locks, you need to figure out how it's staying locked, but for the super magical lockpicking spell you'd buy Suppress Lock, All Powers Of Special Effect (+2). Heck, you don't really need to come up with a specific Power, especially if you're using a VPP; just say "He put 60 points of his VPP into the Magical Lock Power, therefore to unlock it you need to Suppress 60 Active Points."

[LordGhee]

In considering the approach of dispel vs a locked door. You could consider the door an entangle that has a focus (the door). This could allow one to figure out a power level to dispel.

[Chris Goodwin]

Looks like you can do Dispel Lock, which (per the rules question I asked Steve a short while ago) can be defined as merely turning it off rather than destroying it.

[bblackmoor]

Looks like you can do Dispel Lock, which (per the rules question I asked Steve a short while ago) can be defined as merely turning it off rather than destroying it.

I think I prefer the contested Lockpicking skill contest. There are too many ways to compute the "active points" of a lock. Its Body? The Locksmithing skill of the person who created it (adjusted for the extra time and the equipment they used)? The Strength of the lock mechanism itself? I am sure that clever players will think of several more ways to measure the lock's point cost.

This is an interesting idea, but it involves a can of worms I do not care to open.

[LordGhee]

Ask my group about the open door spell tonight. They universally declared use minor transform lowest point to get the job done. (Great minds think alikeJ). Then informed them of the lock picking skill method which started a discussion in which El Tirpon (member) confess his like of desolidification with the special effect of the door opens. Then lady darkfalcon waged “hey if point cost is not an issue then use aid give it an ego and Tk animate object self only, use mind control and make the door open itself!" :shock:

Which left alll laughing and impressed with the Great Lady’s logic. :cool:

Well the moral is there is more than one way to wag the cat in Hero.

[bblackmoor]

Ask my group about the open door spell tonight. They universally declared use minor transform lowest point to get the job done.

Perhaps, but Transform should not be used to replace existing Powers. And personally, I think Transform should be the power of last resort. I dislike the way that the current crop of Hero writers seems to jump on Transform at the first opportunity. It's a cop-out.

[Duke Bushido]

I pity the Treants, Twig Blights, and Oak Golems that dare get in the way of the Wood to Ash caster...


heh heh heh:
Treant, turning to his massed troops of Treants, Oak golems, etc to soud retreat from above spell:
"Run! Run, Forest! Run!"


ooooohhhh----
that was bad. But it _so_ had to be done.... :D

oh yeah...! I feel much better!

[Lethosos]

While I like Blackmoor's (not to be confused with BLACKMOOR: The MMRPG, ;) ) method, I figured a different approach...

Lockpicking with custom Modifier: No Material Components +1, Incantations (must mime unlocking the door,) linked with Clarivoyance (must check this, but defintly on the Door only.)

I'd put a more detailed version up, but I'm in a bit of a hurry-hurry. Simply put, the spell lets you see what lock the door has while you're trying to pick it open--without needing pesky equipment. (If I could, I'd have it not actually increase any existing Lockpicking skill.) Whether the door actually has a lock or not is something that the GM can play with--but it still gives the player a utility spell. If the door has a trap, then it's also up to the GM to determine whether the Clairvoyance can see it.

[psm]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but another variation would be to just desolidify the lock. The spellcaster would have to actually open the door while the spell is taking effect.

[Curufea]

I'm tempted to suggest "how many ways can a lightbulb be changed in Hero rules?"

;)

[LordGhee]

Again the cast lockpicking spell gives you a skill, not a way to work it. The custom modifier just is not appropriate.

the logic here is that Tk is what one would use and it cost is alot more. appropriate tk with the skill lockpicking is need to open door ( or tools).

Of course in our group disscussion one wag " just throw the Hobbit at it".

desolid the lock himmm, intresting. . . .

[mudpyr8]

A lot of this depends on the metaphysics of your magic system. I dislike metasystems that allow conferance of an unknown skill via magic. Summon a demon - sure, enhance your skill - sure. Grant you an unknown skill (e.g. TF: Drive Cart) - no.

So here are the options I've gleaned:

1. Tool Replacement: TK w/ Fine Manipulation and Indirect. You would actually only need at most 3 STR since the average person has an 8, one handed is -5, and that's all the STR most locks would require with a key. Requires Lockpicking Skill. Definitely a force/manipulation spell.

2. Ability Enhancement: Lockpicking skill bonus, possibly just PSLs to offset the difficulty of the lock and the lack of tools. Requires Lockpicking Skill. Also a force/manipulation spell - could be combined with #1.

3. Bypass I: Desolid on the bolt/barring mechanism, Usable as Attack, very limited to the nature of the target. The door should just open, but you would have a hard time closing it because the bolt would still be thrown. If it were barred and the braces were targeted, the bar would simply drop to the floor. Elemental or Ghostrealm spell, depending on SFX.

4. Bypass II: Desolid/Teleport/Tunneling, only to get through the door. Not my favorite.

5. Unlock: Lockpicking as the skill with enough bonus to overcome lack of tool penalties (although SFX is sufficient to allow an attempt regardless of lack of tools). Also not my favorite, but direct. I would have to classify this one as Divination, but possibly force/manipulation.

6. Bash: Either enough damage to open it (RKA) or enough STR to force it (TK). This could fall under any category of spells, but ultimately destroys the door.

7. Make it So!: Transform. Seems like a cop-out, but if it fits your metaphysical model.... This is almost on par with EDM.

8. I wish it were unlocked: (now I'm getting into the realm of T&T spell names) EDM to a dimension where the door is unlocked. Perhaps in a True Name spell setting, or Sliders this would be appropriate. I just like poking KS with an EDMstick.

A. Locksense: Detect Locking Mechanism, Discriminatory, Targeting. This may be required to see the locking/security mechanism of the door. A divination spell of sorts, although possibly elemental (wood, stone, metal) depending on the make up of the door.

B. Lockvision: Clairivoyance. I think this is a bit overkill for Clairsentience, but certainly workable. I think a Detect would be a simpler approach.

So, I hope that is a helpful summary. If I missed some solutions, I apologize. I also recognize my list is somewhat weighted towards my preferences, for which I do not apologize ;)

[Lethosos]

B. Lockvision: Clairivoyance. I think this is a bit overkill for Clairsentience, but certainly workable. I think a Detect would be a simpler approach.
Help me out here... do Detects actually let you see the insides of a lock? I'm of the mind that "Detect Lock" only lets you know if there is a lock, and not give you an idea of how to pick it. (If it was Discriminary, then only for the type--not whether it is pickable or not and such detailed nonsense.)

That's why I suggested a limited Clairvoyance.

[mudpyr8]

Well, I'm thinking along the lines of how a lockpicker actually works. A skilled technician can't see into the lock per se, but he knows the lock and can visualize how his actions play out. That's why I went with Detect, because I feel it provides enough information to represent that level of detail. One doesn't need to actually see the lock, just know its details, which discriminatory would give you, and targeting to allow direct targeting of a lock or bolt mechanism.

[Lethosos]

Well, your version will work, if the mage in question invested in a fair amount of Lockpicking skill. (I don't consider extra skill levels as "instant familarity," if you've never invested anything into understanding how locks work, in general.) With Clairvoyance, but no skill levels, you've got a specialized utility spell that rogues/unscrupilous mages who wish to not burden themselves with time/associated gear would spend a great deal of effort into learning it, and burn XP for it.

[mudpyr8]

I'm thinking more along the lines of having a familiarity in Lockpicking and then use the spell to enhance that.

[PhilFleischmann]

A lot of this depends on the metaphysics of your magic system. I dislike metasystems that allow conferance of an unknown skill via magic. Summon a demon - sure, enhance your skill - sure. Grant you an unknown skill (e.g. TF: Drive Cart) - no.
The spell doesn't have to grant you a skill. It simply performs the skill. "Reason from effects." The wizard casts the lockpicking spell, the lock is unlocked. The thief uses his lockpicking skill, the lock is unlocked. Both characters are doing the same thing. The only difference is the SFX and the mechanism behind the ability, which you shouldn't have to pay for. Likewise, a wizard might have a lightning bolt spell without having KS: Electricity. It's the same type of situation: a spell that creates an effect that you otherwise wouldn't be able to create. In one case, the effect is causing a lock to open; in the other, causing a bolt of lightning to shoot forth. Why is the former less plausible than the latter? It seems to me that if anything, it would be the other way around.

There are other valid reasons not to allow an Open Locks spell to be bought as Lockpicking Skill (campaign flavor, stepping on the thief's "shtick", utility vs. cost, etc.), but there is nothing wrong with buying a Skill as a Power (or in this case, a spell). The book specifically says you can do this.

[Duke Bushido]

You could do Dispel Lock, but that would break it (this is explicitly stated in the description of Dispel). How about Suppress Lock? Once you reach the full Active Points of the Power, it shuts off, but the owner can turn it back on.

The only question is, what Power are you Suppressing? Could be the lock's BODY?

So far, I like this one the best. Nice and elegant, with an unususal take on the idea. Everything I love about HERO!

[bblackmoor]

The spell doesn't have to grant you a skill. It simply performs the skill. ... Likewise, a wizard might have a lightning bolt spell without having KS: Electricity.

Eminently reasonable. Well done.

[Duke Bushido]

Eminently reasonable. Well done.

Indeed!

Rep for common sense and perspective!

[mudpyr8]

The spell doesn't have to grant you a skill. It simply performs the skill. "Reason from effects." The wizard casts the lockpicking spell, the lock is unlocked.

I'm not arguing that it isn't a valid power construct. I believe that it is, nor do I think it is unbalanced. My point is that if your metaphysical model doesn't allow for imbuing skill knowledge, then it isn't appropriate.

Sure, I can create a spell that has PS: Cook and it makes my dinner. But how does this happen? What makes such magic possible? The game effect is the dinner gets made, but this is wish magic, without any logic (which is fine). Creating a lightning bolt doesn't require KS: Electricity because the instantiation of elemental power is part of the spell. The caster is summoning forth and directing raw energy. Everything about that spell is understandable (other than how the energy manifests, but that's the magic part). Once the magic is present, it's application is logical and clear. With PS: Cook, once the magic is present it's application is not logical - how does the magic know (since the caster doesn't) how many eggs go into the cake, when the ingrediants are mixed, what kind of pan is required, how long to cook it, and the fact that it needs to be cooked in an oven?

That's my point. The magic system you use may allow such wish magic and assume it is part of the magical world. That's fine, fun, and easily handled by the system. I'm just saying that not all metaphysical models allow for that, and if so there are other alternatives for creating such a spell.

[prestidigitator]

I was just going to say that locks should be built as Computers with the Lockpicking Skill and one Program: "Lock/Unlock as Instructed by Matching Key." Then you just execute opposed rolls...

...or use Mind Control vs. the Machine Class of Minds. :whistle:

;)

[Blue Jogger]

I like the Lockpicking Skill as a spell, since it works as both a Lock and Unlock and gives the thief the ability to defeat magical locks by getting a higher roll. Unless you want to strengthen the door from barbarians bashing the door down, and then that's Entangle.

And if you think about it, the idea of a thief picking a lock is a fairly modern idea. The small pin-tumble design used in most modern locks wasn't invented until the 1800s. If you wanted a complicated lock before that time, it had to be huge wooden design. So the idea of a thief looking into a lock and using lockpicks could be equally implausible in some fantasy games.

Now, if you want a mage where unlocked doors open and close with a simple gesture. Oddly enough, that's Stretching (w/ Does not cross Intervening space). He waves his hand here and effect happens nearby. Usually 1" is good for doors within 7 feet away. If he can do it with his hands full. That's Extra Limbs.

That's the wimpy party version. If you have a Wizard or Jedi with serious muscle, that's TK with (or without) Fine Manipulation.

[Lemurion]

I'm surprised no one has come up with this method. Use time travel to send the door to a time when it was open.

EDM Time travel to a related group of times 25pts, UAA +1, Only works on doors -2.

You can add whatever other limitations or advantages you want.

[Captain Obvious]

Waits for the inevitable rant.

:angst:

[Markdoc]

And if you think about it, the idea of a thief picking a lock is a fairly modern idea. The small pin-tumble design used in most modern locks wasn't invented until the 1800s. If you wanted a complicated lock before that time, it had to be huge wooden design. So the idea of a thief looking into a lock and using lockpicks could be equally implausible in some fantasy games.

Oh, no it ain't. Lockpicking has (apparently) been around as long as locks. Long before people could cast the little fiddly bit for modern (or late medieval) locks, they were making them out of wood and metal. Pin tumbler locks go back to the Egyptian middle kingdom (at least) and the pin and tumbler model in which the pins were held in place by metal springs was in existence in early Rome. So were thieves - there were specific laws against owning lockpicks (in those days, a wooden paddle, with a number of holes into which you could insert and lock wooden rods of different length to simulate the teeth in the key).

In early medieval england, lockpicking and stealing was a seperate offence from simply stealing and carried much heavier penalties - you could lose a hand for picking a lock, even if you did not steal anything. The rationale was that a) locks were expensive, so anything locked was by deifiition valuable and b) if you knew how to pick locks, you were by definition a professional thief.

Lots of pictures of roman locks and keys here:
http://www.nokey.com/ankeymus.html

Just so's ya know....

cheers, Mark

[bblackmoor]

Lockpicking has (apparently) been around as long as locks.

This is a really good post.

From time to time, I add posts like this one to my RPG FAQ page < http://www.rpglibrary.org/articles/faqs/index.php >. Would you mind if I added this to that page as a FAQ entry? You would, of course receive proper attribution (see "Wishes", < http://www.rpglibrary.org/articles/faqs/wishes.php >, for an example).

[Shike019]

Personally, I like the dispel version best. I have been involved (heavily in the past) with play DND and I find that the Knock spell is one of the best utility spells in the game. It has almost no combat effect, it doesn't dispel traps, it just allows a mage to get by those pesky locked doors, especially if he is the one that has locked them.

I also feel that in a High Fantasy setting where magic is prominant (like traditional DND for example) Some mage, Somehwere would have developed this spell.

[bblackmoor]

Personally, I like the dispel version best.

I think it's a neat idea, but how would you calculate the active point cost of a locked door? The Body of the door? The Body of the lock? The hypothetical Locksmithing skill of the person who created the lock?

For game balance reasons, I would want to use whatever would result in the highest number of active points. How would you handle it?

Perversely enough, it would actually be easier with a magically-locked door than it would be for an ordinary stout door with well-made locks. You'll always know how many points are in a magician's Wizard Lock spell.

[bblackmoor]

Okay, I have in mind four "open door" type spells of varying power.

Access Of the Novice http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Spell_-_Access_Of_The_Novice
Access Of the Adept http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Spell_-_Access_Of_The_Adept
Access Of The Master
Access Of The Archmage

The first and cheapest just blows the lock to pieces.

The second has the combined TK and Lockpicking that has been discussed a great deal in this thread.

Access Of The Master will be Desolidification, Usable Only As An Attack, Area Effect Line, Only to pass through walls, portals, and other obstructions (-1/4) , Can't pass through a properly drawn magic circle (-1/4) (in addition to other Advantages and Limitations I won't bore you with right now). The special effect is that doors open, portcullises rise, passages open in solid stone, and so on.

Access Of The Archmage will be a Suppress versus every power of a special effect, that special effect being anything and everything which prevents the caster from accessing a particular lace or thing (in addition to other Advantages and Limitations I won't bore you with right now). The amount of the Suppress will be arbitrarily huge, to forestall any argument about the Active Cost of non-magical locked portcullises, and to ensure that it costs more than Access Of The Master. The special effect is that doors open, portcullises rise, passages open in solid stone, and so on.

Before I work out the fine details that are specific to my game, I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts on these two methods of gaining access to where one has been excluded.

[Markdoc]

This is a really good post.

From time to time, I add posts like this one to my RPG FAQ page < http://www.rpglibrary.org/articles/faqs/index.php >. Would you mind if I added this to that page as a FAQ entry? You would, of course receive proper attribution (see "Wishes", < http://www.rpglibrary.org/articles/faqs/wishes.php >, for an example).

Hey, go ahead. Anything I post is open source as far as I am concerned :D

cheers, Mark

[DangerousDan]

I'll be honest why I don't like the Teleportation or Tunnelling version.

First, the door itself could be trapped for when it opens. Both "bypass" the actual opening of the door. Though of course a GM could rule otherwise.

Second, just because you want to open the door, doesn't mean you want to step inside the room. Both power constructs mentioned are Movement based powers and thus, require physical movement into the room.


I prefer Minor Transform Closed door to Open Door, but the following is also possible: Tunneling, 1", X def, Limited Medium, Fill In, Useable as an Attack, Ranged

[DangerousDan]

this got me thinking what is a wizard lock?

For a current character of mine, I define it as Transform 1 1/2 D6 Minor Transform Door or gate into door or gate that won't open, Personal Immunity this is an incorrect use of Personal Immunity, but the GM let it pass plus other advantages and limitations that are irrelevant to the question.

Aagh! It just occured to me that it could have been better defined as a Transform to a Door or Gate that won't open for anyone else, thus avoiding the improper use of Personal Immunity.

The low value of transform dice does depend on the interpretation that a transform on an inanimate object merely needs to exceed the BODY, not twice the BODY.

Destroying an object with 10 BODY requires only half the amount of damage through the DEF as killing a character with 10 BODY, so it isn't unreasonable to expect that transforming an object requires half the transform damage as a character with the same BODY. It isn't by the book but it does follow the rationale that the book uses to justify the Transform.