Overwhelming PRE attacks

[Randi]

HELP!

I GM games on Hero Central where some of the players like to use overwhelming PRE attacks, walk in like Gods, roll 15 or 20d6 PRE, everyone surrenders, end of threat, end of game. Even with minuses like -1d6 for being in-combat, etc., it's still overwhelming. Everyone is Cowed, and they will do whatever they are told. "Surrender to the police and allow them to put on the megarestraints." Or "Bow down and worship me!" etc.

My response has been to tell them I do NOT like overwhelming PRE attacks and I simply will not allow them; no more than 30 PRE. But the players object. So they try to find other ways, like building a CE with +20 vs Ego, or Drain Ego, Ranged, AeO, lots of dice... or the occasional mentalist power gamer with a 20d6 power suite: Telepathy, Mental Illusions, Mind Control... which just kind of messes up any GM plans.

How do you suggest I handle players that want to have God-like Presence? Besides telling them to take a flying leap? Or introducing them to Menton?

[Steve Long]

Since this is a "GMing advice" sort of question, I've moved it to the "Discussion" board so anyone who likes can offer suggestions.

Personally, I'd just establish reasonable limits and appeal to the maturity of the players. Having never run an online game (though I've played in a few), I'm not sure how well that'd work for a non-FTF game, though.

[Fox1]

How do you suggest I handle players that want to have God-like Presence? Besides telling them to take a flying leap? Or introducing them to Menton?

If they refuse to obey your restriction their PRE attacks (getting around it with cute builds is a refusal), do one of the following:

1. Remove PRE attacks from the game.

2. Tell them to take a flying leap.

[ghost-angel]

Sounds like they're "in it to win" and not play in genre.

You probably want to sit down with them and have a talk about what kind of game they want. A lot of fun comes from confrontation and not knowing if you can take out the bad guy before it's too late.

Of course, another more solid method is to deny them experience. Growth comes from conflict, if every encounter ends in two phases with the barking orders and not really investigating and doing much else they rarely get a chance to learn - reflected by you not giving them any experience to spend.

Basically - they don't sound like they're playing the game you'd like to play. And it has been correctly pointed out before that if the GM isn't having an fun either the game needs adjustment.

[Cancer]

Expose them to more classes of villains. Against a team that's over-reliant upon EGO- and PRE-based attacks, mechanicals are the standard "scissors" to that "paper". For instance, large numbers of Automatons who use Coordinated Attacks.

[mikesama]

Inflict a counter PRE attack by a master villan thats leading them, give him Comanding presence +30 PRE, only to inspire followers -1.

"No you fools attack them, you cannot loose to the likes of them!"

He beats thier presence attack and they keep going.


ALternatly someone hits them with a darkness vrs sight and sound, give the schlubs radar visors and when they make the PRE attack say well they can't really see or hear you and to thier radar visors all you are is a vaugely human shape.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Put them up against Automatons and punish them. Automatons are immune to PRE attacks :)

Then do the same thing to them. Hit them with PRE/EGO drain then PRE attack them into surrenduring. When they whine about it, explain to them thats how you feel when they do it. It might get through to some of them, but probably not all. You may get someone who is so offended they never return, in either case, problem solved.

Then send a letter to everyone involved about your dislike of overwhelming PRE attacks and why you think it is ruining the feel of the game. Make sure you explain the concept of staying "in genre" so that everyone understands where you are coming from. Hopefully they'll understand.

[Fox1]

Expose them to more classes of villains. Against a team that's over-reliant upon EGO- and PRE-based attacks, mechanicals are the standard "scissors" to that "paper". For instance, large numbers of Automatons who use Coordinated Attacks.

IME such in-game counters only seldom control players insisting on taking advantage of the system, it typically makes things worse.

They will either re-double their efforts to find new loopholes, or they will decide that the GM "isn't playing fair" and personal conflict increases. Rolling over after a GM inflicted beating isn't likely.

[schir1964]

HELP!....
Howdy Randi!

Rarely see you post over here in this section.

Well, considering that you already have a campaign in progress this is the suggestion that I think might work best for your situation.

Add a new House Rule to your campaign description:

Presence Attacks: Character's get 1d6 for every 20 Points of Presence.

This reduces the effect of Presence attacks, yet for those who want to spend all their points on Presence might still have an effect.

Those who can't swallow the House Rule might leave, but then that might not be such a great loss, based on what you are dealing with.

- Christopher Mullins

[Mentor]

I agree with the posts appealing to the genre and maturity. I am assuming that there is a vetting process for PCs to determine if any of their values are cheesy and metagamish. Character concepts only work when something besides merely fighting supervillains is involved in a campaign. You might remind them that it is hard for player characters with 60 PRE to get anything else done when average citizens stop everything to notice them, get in car wrecks because of rubbernecking, forget the information the Heroes need because they are so taken with the impressiveness of the PC, etc.

[Cancer]

IME such in-game counters only seldom control players insisting on taking advantage of the system, it typically makes things worse.

They will either re-double their efforts to find new loopholes, or they will decide that the GM "isn't playing fair" and personal conflict increases. Rolling over after a GM inflicted beating isn't likely.

That could be quite correct in general. I've been lucky to play more or less exclusively for the last 12 years or so with a pretty small, stable group of quite reasonable people, and we adapt when the GMs point out via in-game counters that we've become overly specialized and/or exploitative.

So it's been a while since I've had to contend with pick-up munchkins, and what I remember of that experience, you are quite right.

[Hugh Neilson]

Would you allow a 20d6 Energy Blast, or 100 STR? If not, why would you allow a 20d6 PRE attack, or 100 PRE? I see three approaches:

(a) Discuss this with the players. It's not the game you want to play. If it's the game they want to play, maybe it's time to part ways. On the other hand, if they wish to take this approach, you can live with it and play some counterstrategies.

(b) Change the opposition, discussed a bit above. Some items not mentioned above, however.

- You have 100 PRE? What a surprise - tonight's villain has a 150 PRE.

- "The VIPER agents quiver in their boots. The smell of human waste and fear is almost overwhelming. Suddenly, several shots ring out" as enemies on the rooftops fire their sniper rifles at Our Heroes' heads. Since a 20d6 PRE attack is acceptable, they should have no problem with these opponents having 5d6 Penetrating RKA's, right?

- Raise the average PRE across the board. "Yes, you are impressive heroes. These are even more impressive villains. You guys set the bar - I'm just adjusting the game world to match."

(c) Walk away and play with more mature gamers whose play style will better match your own.

[Heroman]

I would definately approach it from a limit perspective. That and simply deny powers where the player is obviously trying to get a combination to circumvent your restrictions. While it is reasonable to have a hero with complimentary powers, when they directly add it is not abiding by the limits you place.

You could also, for those pesky PRE monsters, introduce the BDR (Blind, Deaf, Radar) Villians. You need to understand what the attacker is trying to get you to do after all...

Also, rampaging computer controlled vehicles will mock (well, can be programmed to artifically mock) PRE dependant people. Face it; the villian element will watch and learn about the heroes. They want to succeed so they will adapt. There even could be a larger villian that wants to rough up the heroes so they provide even these smaller gangs with tech designed to hit the heroes hard.

[Brother Jim]

i like the 5D6 penetrating, no range modifier RKA idea.



but, try talking to them first.

then after they refuse to follow your capaign guidelines hit them in the head with a 10D6 AP, Pen, NRM, +10 OCV, effects desolid and whatever other advantages you need to get them out of your game.

'cause if they won't follow campaign limits, why should you ?????

[prestidigitator]

Maybe if they are playing the system like this they want this kind of challenge. How about:
Pre; Only to Protect Against Pre Attacks (-1) (incredibly cheap)
Absorption: Pre, "damage," to Str (unconventional, I know, but go ahead: keep making those unlimited, takes-no-time Pre Attacks...)
Enraged/Berserk (don't think Presence Attacks are going to be much good against a berserk target, seeing as they are all likely to act directly against the Disadvantage; you could even make the condition suitable, such as: "when overwhelmed with doubt")
If anyone manages to pop an attack or two off on the PCs it is likely to hurt; after all, they have sunk a great deal of points into Presence instead of apprpriate defenses and the like.

The good thing is, especially in superhero genres, that villians who can naturally counter the heros' shticks just somehow have a nack for popping up, especially when the heros are getting cocky. :)

[garou]

How high a PRE do they have? They should at least be facing -1d6 (Combat), -1d6 to -3d6 (against existing mood) - if they use a power in an extremely violent way, they might cancel that out. Then, against the average goon PRE or EGO of 10, they'd still need to roll a total of 40 in order to get them to surrender. With average rolls, that's something like a PRE of 60!

Also, I believe that only the target of the PRE attack takes the full brunt. Others on the same side are effected, but at one level less.

You could always start (in addition to introducing automotons, talking with the players, etc) giving the goons two new powers: Armor (just because every goon needs more PD and ED) and then a PRE +30, Only vs PRE attacks, Only when wearing armor (total cost is 13 points or thereabouts)

[Lanith]

...You might remind them that it is hard for player characters with 60 PRE to get anything else done when average citizens stop everything to notice them, get in car wrecks because of rubbernecking, forget the information the Heroes need because they are so taken with the impressiveness of the PC, etc.

Beautiful ideas, explain to the players just how IMPRESSIVE they are and then let them feel the side effects. Honestly I don't think these ideas will work alone, but they are some great ideas.
If I'm reading your players correctly they will bask in their superhero-dom and not care that normals are being injured or dying when they see them. You'll have to explain to them how annoying it is, then when you get the inevitable arguments of "everything I'm doing is within the rules"; then you whip out your atomaton army with 5d6RKA's.

[mallet]

Create an adventure with a villain who has Transform, usable as an attack, as a power (he uses it to change the apperance of his henchmen into what ever is needed to compleate a mission (rob a bank, break into an office, etc...) )

When the PC's show up he permanetly changes them from high PRE characters into low/average PRE characters. If you are feeling nice, you can give the PC's the equivilent Experience Points (of what they lost) to re-spend on other powers over time.

This way you have an "in-game"/"storyline" reason for their sudden loss, but they do not loose out on all of the points they spent. It's win-win, and could lead to some character development when the PC's have to suddenly deal with the fact that they are no longer that impressive.

And if they don't like it, well... Tough for them. It's a game, things happen that they can not control. If they don't like then they can GM their own game.

[garou]

I agree with the posts appealing to the genre and maturity. I am assuming that there is a vetting process for PCs to determine if any of their values are cheesy and metagamish. Character concepts only work when something besides merely fighting supervillains is involved in a campaign. You might remind them that it is hard for player characters with 60 PRE to get anything else done when average citizens stop everything to notice them, get in car wrecks because of rubbernecking, forget the information the Heroes need because they are so taken with the impressiveness of the PC, etc.
That's nasty. It also means that there are lots of innocent bystanders whenenever combat breaks out. Little kids try to emulate their heroes (and fail, with serious injuries, which leads to lawsuits, etc). Villains start trying to join up with them. Police stop responding to calls because the PCs can handle it. Rescue personnel are letting people die at the scene of a fight because they keep trying to flirt with the PCs. PCs get mobbed whenever they try to appear in public, and riots ensue when they leave, causing more death and property damage.

And did they not take PRE with the OIHID or a focus? Then maybe introduce the concept of "Casual PRE", where you use have your PRE for random social interactions. John Q. Superhero didn't mean to use his overpowering PRE (which he normally reserves for his gig as Captain Quissenart), but unfortunately, when he asked his secretary to get him a cop of coffee, she was overwhelmed. She's left her husband, and is now living at the office, hoping to get a chance to get him more coffee. Mary's husband is suing John Q for alienation of affection.

People start commiting crimes just to see their favorite superhero. The PCs are no longer battling VIPER, or PSI, or even Panda and Raccoon - now, they're fighting 80-year-old grandmothers, who have held up a bank and baked a pie for their favorite superhero.

Man, this could be fun. . . .

[Brother Jim]

actually, i really like some of these really Evil ideas other people are coming up with.


man do i miss actually being able to play !!!

i'm about as rusty as a piece of cheap steel thrown in the ocean two years ago.

[Dr Archeville]

*steps in to defend self*

I'm more likely than not the "problem" player Randi's talking about.

My character, Dead Head, is in the 700-pt [550 + 150 in Disad] Galactic Champions game Randi runs. So far, I've had fun, and I've yet to actually do anything except make an Acrobatics roll (to leap onto a wall) and my one PRE attack, which cowed 5 Mooks (and most of the other PC's).

Dead Head has a PRE of 30. He also has Terror from Beyond the Grave: +40 PRE (40 Active); Only for Making and to Defend Against Fear-Based PRE Attacks (-1/2) (27 Real). He also has a COM of 4, and the Disadvantage Distinctive Features: Walking Corpse (Concealable with Effort; Causes Extreme Reaction [Fear/Revulsion]; Detectable By Common Senses). He looks like Evil Ernie (from Chaos! Comics), or Dirge (from the Zombie webtoon).

Dead Head is from a planet where every humanoid inhabitant was turned into ravenous bloodthirty undead ghouls several years ago; he himself is the only member of his race who is not overcome with a hunger for living flesh, though he himself is a ghoul. He had been fighting them for years, mostly b/c he can also see & hear the spirits of all those dead people, and most ask him to put their bodies down, and in part b/c he's had nothing else to do. A passing Perseid research vessel crashed on the planet; Dead Head helped defend the Perseid from the ghouls while they repaired their ship, and in return they took him (whose undead nature piqued their scientific and philosophic curiosity) off the planet.

I've had to revamp and retool the character several times -- originally he was going to be an undead with a wide array of necromantic spell-like powers, but now he's more like an undead Batman, stealthy and chock full of acrobatics & martial arts skills. I'd already told Randi I'd knock off the "Terror from Beyond the Grave" bit if he really wanted me to, though I'm not sure what else to add. My main reservation about this new GM-imposed change is in large part b/c I've had to change the character around so much already.

In my mind [at least], Dead Head should be able to scare the daylights out of most normals, and this shouldn't be too game-breaking. I.e., be able to get a 30 on PRE Attacks, which'd be 20 higher than a Mook's EGO/PRE of 10, which on overage would require a roll of 9d6, which would require a PRE of 45 to get. If I could have a lower version of Terror from Beyond the Grave -- say, +15 PRE (15 Active); Only for Making and to Defend Against Fear-Based PRE Attacks (-1/2) (10 Real), which'd be enough to effectively raise DH's PRE to 45 when making fear-based PRE attacks -- I'd be happy as a clam.


(How happy are clams, really?)

[Duke Bushido]

Maybe if they are playing the system like this they want this kind of challenge. How about:
Pre; Only to Protect Against Pre Attacks (-1) (incredibly cheap)
Absorption: Pre, "damage," to Str (unconventional, I know, but go ahead: keep making those unlimited, takes-no-time Pre Attacks...)
Enraged/Berserk (don't think Presence Attacks are going to be much good against a berserk target, seeing as they are all likely to act directly against the Disadvantage; you could even make the condition suitable, such as: "when overwhelmed with doubt")Beat me to it! ;)

My group introduced 'Presence Defense' as a characteristic several years ago, simply because it was an easy concept to juggle and we got tired or writing "Only to protect against Pre attacks (-1)" every time a character wanted it. And yes, it's insanely cheap, and it gives a very nice simulation of the true 'career thug.' While he himself may not be the most awe-inspiring person (say PRE 13-15), he has been around a long time, seen a lot of things, and been truly trounced by people far better than the guy trying to scare him now. It's very nice for that.

The "Berserk when confounded/frightened/otherwise PRE Attacked" was something I was going to suggest as well. Keep in mind that while your players are teaching the badguys the error of their ways, they are also learning how to actually _be_ heroes. I don't like to make things overwhelming for my players, but I do like for them to understand that as the 'good guys,' they have to consider all their actions, and act responsibly.

Realistically, a waterfront wharf, gaurded by a dozen well-armed henchmen, is going to have at least a few innocents (night gaurd, midnight anglers, mook short-cutting home from his second job). When you've got a dozen armed men, keyed up with adreneline, and up pops Johnny Shinytights, big and bold as all creation, at least one guy is going to pop of a round or two, even if by accident. A slew of proffessional toughs may spray off a wave or two of lead trying to buy a second to get their wits together (even if they will ultimately be cowed; there is pure adreneline and shock to consider). Suppose someone were to get hurt-- or possibly killed-- as a direct result of 'heroic arrogance?'

I really like some of the ideas presented by all the above posters-- from automatons to simply raising the bar for opponents, and in particular the 'pitfalls' of a high PRE score. (though if you want to lay that one on too heavy, you might consider forcing a Disadvantage for a PRE above say 30), and I think you should consider them.

But focus also on Prestidigitator's (-please- tell me I spelled that right) ideas of PRE Defense, and focus on the possible backlashes of startled goons. No two people are completely alike, so it is not unreasonable that someone is going to react slightly differently than the chart says they will.

While we have never had a regular problem with repeated high PAs, we do have some regular rules governing their use that may give you some ideas:

1) Whenever the target has faced that Hero before, the Hero takes a modifier to his PA: right away, -1d6 per previous encounter. This is to reflect that the target has become more familiar with the tactics of the Hero, and like any celebrity, they are always a bit less intimidating once you 'know' them. Besides, it's hard to have an arch-nemesis who is repeatedly running away on a trail of urine every time you show up. This works well for goons, too. There is a certain element who is simply attracted to the 'easy pickin's' lifestyle of henching for a supervillain. You'll likely meet the same goon now and again. (I recommend the old 'Agent Control Sheets' for listing exposure histories of goons)

2)If the target has ever escaped from the Hero, that's another -1d6 per escape. The taget knows that the Hero is not as infallable as the PA might suggest.

3)If the previous encounters with the Hero ended non-violently (say, instant cowing by a PA) or the target has never seen genuine violence from the Hero against a goon or other peer of the target, -1d6 to -3d6.

4)If the Hero is rumored or repped to have a Code v Killing, -3d6 or divide the total dice remaining after above modifiers for the PA in half (whichever is least)

5)if the target knows for an absolute fact that the Hero has a Code v Kiling, -5d6 or divide the total dice remaining after above modifiers for the PA in half (whichever is greater). It's hard for a proffessional tough guy to fear for his life when he knows his life is not in the least bit of danger).

No modifiers from the above guidelines (save #5) can ever reduce a PA to less than 2d6 effectiveness. Even on a bad day, a super should be able to draw approval from an average citizen.

Of course, there are modifiers the otherway--


I hope that something up there can help you.


Duke

[prestidigitator]

Nice ideas about side effects and whatnot! I really liked the secretary example! :lol: And Duke Bushido is very right about the targets' reactions as well. In general a successful Presence Attack is going to give the attacker an advantage, but who says that has to be all? It might very well force the targets to do something very stupid that in the end will allow the attacker to win and/or something really bad to happen to the targets, but there's absolutely nothing that says it has to be exactly the reaction the attacker wants!

The NPCs might run screaming from the PCs, attacking anything that gets in their way. The police might be extremely startled by the Presence Attack as well, having heart attacks or opening fire on the PCs before they know what they are doing...or throwing down their guns and running for their lives. Imagine what is going to happen to the PCs' reputations if they cause police to die, resign, or get locked in mental institutions? How many of the criminals are going to be released by judges because the method of apprehension employed acts of terror or unnecessary cruelty? What happens when the crooks, now severely mentally deranged by the psychological trauma imposed by the PCs, are again released upon the streets?

[ghost-angel]

*steps in to defend self*

I'm more likely than not the "problem" player Randi's talking about.

My character, Dead Head, is in the 700-pt [550 + 150 in Disad] Galactic Champions game Randi runs. So far, I've had fun, and I've yet to actually do anything except make an Acrobatics roll (to leap onto a wall) and my one PRE attack, which cowed 5 Mooks (and most of the other PC's).

Dead Head has a PRE of 30. He also has Terror from Beyond the Grave: +40 PRE (40 Active); Only for Making and to Defend Against Fear-Based PRE Attacks (-1/2) (27 Real). He also has a COM of 4, and the Disadvantage Distinctive Features: Walking Corpse (Concealable with Effort; Causes Extreme Reaction [Fear/Revulsion]; Detectable By Common Senses). He looks like Evil Ernie (from Chaos! Comics), or Dirge (from the Zombie webtoon).


edit: Clams are pretty frickin' happy, from what I hear...
Dead Head is from a planet where every humanoid inhabitant was turned into ravenous bloodthirty undead ghouls several years ago; he himself is the only member of his race who is not overcome with a hunger for living flesh, though he himself is a ghoul. He had been fighting them for years, mostly b/c he can also see & hear the spirits of all those dead people, and most ask him to put their bodies down, and in part b/c he's had nothing else to do. A passing Perseid research vessel crashed on the planet; Dead Head helped defend the Perseid from the ghouls while they repaired their ship, and in return they took him (whose undead nature piqued their scientific and philosophic curiosity) off the planet.

I've had to revamp and retool the character several times -- originally he was going to be an undead with a wide array of necromantic spell-like powers, but now he's more like an undead Batman, stealthy and chock full of acrobatics & martial arts skills. I'd already told Randi I'd knock off the "Terror from Beyond the Grave" bit if he really wanted me to, though I'm not sure what else to add. My main reservation about this new GM-imposed change is in large part b/c I've had to change the character around so much already.

In my mind [at least], Dead Head should be able to scare the daylights out of most normals, and this shouldn't be too game-breaking. I.e., be able to get a 30 on PRE Attacks, which'd be 20 higher than a Mook's EGO/PRE of 10, which on overage would require a roll of 9d6, which would require a PRE of 45 to get. If I could have a lower version of Terror from Beyond the Grave -- say, +15 PRE (15 Active); Only for Making and to Defend Against Fear-Based PRE Attacks (-1/2) (10 Real), which'd be enough to effectively raise DH's PRE to 45 when making fear-based PRE attacks -- I'd be happy as a clam.


(How happy are clams, really?)

Welp, ask yourself - is a 14D6 (unmodified) PRE attack appropriate to the game. It's a high powered game - so probably. It's less deadly than a 14D6 EB (though that could be argued). If not, then you should tone it down.

Are you using the power appropriately? Sometimes another method may be more appropriate to the game, or story, than Uber-Ability-X.

I don't think the fault lies entirely with the players, perhaps the GM had a different expectation than what actually came about. Which is why I suggest the Players and GM talk first. If expecations are adjusted then the game has a good chance of leveling itself out back towards balance.

If that fails Dead Head should be prepared to fight a dozen automata with 5D6 RKA NNDs :eg: (I'm kidding)

[Trebuchet]

Look, if all Dead Head is trying to do with his huge PRE is intimidate mooks, then 30 PRE is more than enough; especially with a display of power for extra dice. But it simply is not genre for heroes to scare the bejeezus out of their opposite numbers. That's more a villain schtick.

So tone down or eliminate the extra +40 PRE and try something different. Maybe a Change Environment w/Selective Target which causes all opponents a -3 penalty on their OCV because Dead Head is so scary that they're literally shivering with fear. That still makes him creepy as hell, but it doesn't end the game in one swell foop. And it's something training or levels can eventually compensate for, which keeps encounters with mooks of interest.

[Dr Archeville]

*is glad Dead Head also has 30 rPD/30 rED and Regeneration (3 BODY/Turn)*

(Batman scares the bejeezus out of folks all the time. So did the Shadow. :p )

[ghost-angel]

*is glad Dead Head also has 30 rPD/30 rED and Regeneration (3 BODY/Turn)*

(Batman scares the bejeezus out of folks all the time. So did the Shadow. :p )

I personally think the concept is really cool.

I think you could have implemented the same idea a different way that didn't potentially unbalance the game.

Trebuchet's suggestion of a Change Environment: Really creepy feeling or some such is a really good one. You get an effect, it matches your SFX but does't immediately turn the battle to one side.

[prestidigitator]

Batman scares the bejeezus out of folks all the time. So did the Shadow. :p
True. Seeing the power level of the game, I am wondering if maybe the level of Pre is appropriate after all. Still the main villains shouldn't be scared too badly by it. So maybe the answer is that the main NPCs should have higher Pre/Ego or other appropriate defenses/countermeasures themselves. I don't see why mooks shouldn't be scared ****less by a 700-point character! Of course, maybe for a game of that high power mooks should themselves be more powerful than what we normal think of as a, "mook."

[garou]

*is glad Dead Head also has 30 rPD/30 rED and Regeneration (3 BODY/Turn)*

(Batman scares the bejeezus out of folks all the time. So did the Shadow. :p )
I know that Batman scares the bejeezus out of people (so does Spidey) - and most of the general populace doesn't care for them (at least, not in the same way that they feel for Superman or the Fantastic Four). All of the heroes mentioned have fairly high PRE, but it manifests in different ways.

Superman - you know that he's an overgrown Boy Scout. Uberpowerful, but he's not going to kill you if you surrender. He can fight a bad guy and demolish half of Metropolis, and people just shrug it off.

Batman - he probably won't kill you, but he can and will inflict permanent, crippling injuries, and you just know that someday, he's going to decide that the "kid gloves" method he has been using until now isn't working, and he's going to look at more permanent solutions. So, Batman gets hasseled by the cops (some, not all of course), the public thinks he's creepy and wrong, etc.

Ditto for FF and Spidey.

Since Dead Head has a high PRE, and it's based on Fear, plus the Distinctive Features and the low COM, it means that yes, bad guys will surrender - but that cops, the public, etc all won't like him. There will be calls for "someone to come rid the fair city of the monstrous menace that lurks within, this ghoulish vigilante who tortures his victims", etc. Random heroes might buy this, villains look at Dead Head as a possible recruit, bystanders start a class-action suit for emotional suffering (after all, everyone in the area can be effected by a PRE attack - and bystanders really aren't on your side, even as a hero) etc. (You do have a negative rep as creepy, undead superhero, right? Odds are good you're going to have the rep anyway, might as well gets the points for it.)

[Dr Archeville]

Dead Head's actually on a supers team (or, rather, will soon be) based on Malagar IV (the Capital of the Galactic Federation; this is as was said a Champions 3000 game). He has the Perk: Interstellar Police Powers. [Though this character is based on one used in another RPG, one where for the most part the PC's were solo vigilantes, but semi-regularly worked as a team.]

No, he does not have a rep as an Undead Monster, since he only recently got off his home planet, so is only now just getting to be known. This first mission he's been sent on is in fact his first foray into the public eye; 'till now, he's been quarantined in science & medical facilities as techies studied him and tried to figure out what made him tick, and why he of all the undead on his home planet doesn't crave warm, living, tasty brains. (My first draft of the character had the Disadvantage "Social Limitation: Dead," reflecting the fact that in all societies [all Terran ones, anyway], the dead have no legal rights whatsoever, but this was removed.)

One of the concepts for this character that I have stuck to in all his iterations is to in fact have him be to the Malagar team what Batman is to the JLA -- the uber-creepy spectre of doom focusing on infiltration, interrogation, and intimidation, dealing with cannon-fodder Mooks while the others deal with the main threat.

[sinanju]

How do you suggest I handle players that want to have God-like Presence? Besides telling them to take a flying leap? Or introducing them to Menton?

1. Give every NPC some PRE Defense...or a LOT of PRE Defense, if necessary.

2. Subject _their_ characters to opponents with insane levels of PRE and see how they like it when THEY'RE the ones reduced to sobbing, cringing wretches begging for mercy. Then tell them that the GM can win any arms race with his players, so maybe they'd like to actually, you know, LISTEN when you tell them not to go for outrageous PRE scores.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Great thread, and a whole lot of good answers...

The way I see it, if all your PCs want to use 20d presence attacks, then you start using them back. It's the old GMing theory of reaping what you sew. If all my PCs fire is AP/EX ammo, then guess what? Obviously AP/EX ammo is far more common than I realized so all my bad guys will start using it too, they learned from watching the PCs, seemed to work for them.

Have yourself a sit down and consider the highly inconvenient ramifications of god like presence, add a splash of amusement, stir, let chill for a few game sessions, serve cold.

Let's take Dead Head for example (sorry!) 30 PRE +40 PRE only for fear. Boy I'd be careful where I used that, bystanders beware! People running in every direction, old ladies having coronaries, accidents, tramplings... eesh, that could get ugly. What of Gorgeous Man (tm) with his gleaming teeth and PRE of 50? You think Brad Pitt can't go out in public? Try it with 50 PRE.

People camped around your house/lair/last place you were seen... with the praying and the chanting and the constant declarations of love...

I think maybe they haven't considered all the implications.

Sunday

[Duke Bushido]

There are indeed a lot of great answers on this thread-- interesting dillema you're in as well; generally pwer level problems revolve around damage!

Before implementing any of the other ideas in this thread, I think I'd try talking to the players first as many have suggested. If that doesn't work, then go into some of the ideas presented. Start with the mechanical suggestions such as opponents who don't respond to PRE, modifiers to the roll, etc. I really would save 'punishing' the players as an absolute last resort; it's no fun for you or them, and can leave a sour taste in all y'alls mouths.


Good luck.

Duke

[gojira]

True. Seeing the power level of the game, I am wondering if maybe the level of Pre is appropriate after all. .... I don't see why mooks shouldn't be scared ****less by a 700-point character! Of course, maybe for a game of that high power mooks should themselves be more powerful than what we normal think of as a, "mook."
Bingo.

I just want to emphasize, now that we've heard from the player's side of the story, that I feel Prestidigitator is on the right track. Too much advice here is of the "sock it to the players" type right now.

First, is there a range limit to PRE? I've got old rules so I'm not sure if this is treated in the 5th ed. If not, just figure that PRE is limited to about 50 feet or so. That's reasonable. It's the characters PRESENCE that we're talking about here, and if he ain't present, it don't count. Sure, those mooks right in front of Evil Death Head Guy are gonna faint, run away, poop their leotards, etc. But those mooks 150 meters down range are gonna think "Nows my chance to get that scary dude while he's busy scaring someone else."

(No range, or increased range at least, plus some set and braced, would be appropriate here. No 50 point mook is gonna go up against a 700 point god if he doesn't have a decent weapon, not for any money.)

Second, USE MORE MOOKS. Like about a 100 or more. That way, Evil Death Head Guy can have fun scaring lots of mooks, and the mooks will at least get a few shots in. This is obvious. If you're a 1500 point super villian, are you gonna throw the hired help at these guys 10 at a time? I think not.

Also, I'd rule that FEAR does not cause someone to obey you. Run away, faint, poop their leotards -- yes. Obey, no. Fear can also cause someone to go bananas and attack with all they've got (autofire, close range), but this shouldn't be too often. There's no special disadvantage needed for this, it's called self-preservation.

Lastly, a smart 1500 point super villian isn't going to use only 50 point mooks. Those guys are like imps in Dungeon Keeper. Get some 250 point villian cannon fodder, some 400 lieutenants, some 700 point captains and mix it up a little. When I was playing Champions, the GM would always add a 250 villian to lead the 50 point mooks. This is when characters started at 250 points. Meaning those 50 point mooks were worth one fifth of our characters (on fifth of 700 is 140. Think about it.)



Well, that's about all I got. I really think you as GM just need to be a little more flexible, and up the power level of your campaign so that the players can have a decent challenge. That should be more fun that just making one Acrobatics roll and a PRE roll and having every adventure end right there. For both players and GM.

That'll take some work. Maybe get the people here to help you with figuring out a decent challenge, point levels that'll give these players a decent showing. I'll recomend that you check out The New Circle (http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23376) thread by Oddhat. Use The Master (the 1500 point version); make him The Evil Master, an evil lich from the nineth dimension. Whatever affects desolid attacks the players have, it won't affect the The Evil Master becuase this nineth dimension stuff is totally beyond them. (Figuring out how to take this guy down on his home turf will take a long time, and should be a campaign ending event.) Meanwhile, the Evil Master is ploting to suck this dimension dry of energy, because his dimension is out of energy and nearing entropy death (Bush got elected there too).

Now get people to make up some captains and lieutenants for ya.

[sinanju]

I just want to emphasize, now that we've heard from the player's side of the story, that I feel Prestidigitator is on the right track. Too much advice here is of the "sock it to the players" type right now.

Yeah, but that's only after Randi posted that he'd tried putting limits on PRE and the players responded by rules-lawyering their way around those limits. I've been playing with rules lawyers for many years quite happily, but the key is that the GM _must_ enforce the limits he finds necessary in his game or they'll walk all over you.

It may be that Dr Archville sincerely believes his PC needs an effective PRE of 70 vs street thugs. I think that's absurd. But more importantly, the GM thinks its excessive--and that's all that really ought to matter.

Sometimes you have to get their attention before they listen.

[Phil]

One suggestion no-one has made is monitoring char-gen a bit tighter. 20d6 presence attack is exceptional. Why is it so high? What is the rationale for that character having such an incredible presence? If you cant come up with a convincing explanation (and more than "he's a really impressive guy" - impressive is a PRE of 25 or 30), you cant have the power.

The other thing to remember is Active Point limits. The way I interpret these is to apply them across the board to everything, including stats. So with a 60 pt Active Point limit, you cannot have a Presence attack (inc. cost of PRE) that is more than 60 points. That will at least keep the maximum down to some extent.

[radioKAOS]

70 total PRE in a 700pt Character whose schtick is FEAR is not overwhelmingly powerful.

Would a 35 PRE be overwhelming in a 350pt game?

A 70PRE in a 350pt game would be unbalancing for sure.

Seems the real problem is that you don't think the concept works well at that level [700pts], in your game. Perhaps asking him to make a new character, not based on Fear, is your answer.

[Sean Waters]

Please, please tell me that the character(s) don't have +60 PRE as a multipower slot.....

Anyway, you could introduce them to Humiliator who has scads of AE (selective) PRE defence and Drain: PRE (AE: radius), lengthy recovery (5 points per week) 0 END always on continuous (and, if necessary NND) at 40 points per 1d6 (60 active, or a bit more with the NND - if they all have lots of power defence too).

Humiliator makes them feel dirty.

It isn't going to help in this fight: they will still have a lot of PRE at the start and can probably scare the pants off people, but by the end of the fight they'll all be a lot less self confident and impressive for quite a while.

Then again there's always radiation accidents :)

Actually there are a lot of things you CAN do, but the point is you are going to upset the players: if they can't use their favourite power and they are not willing to be reasonable about changing the character build to improve the game, then they are not going to be reasonable about your cunning ways to get around their favourite powers.

Be prepared for fall out, or fallings out, or both.

[Sean Waters]

70 total PRE in a 700pt Character whose schtick is FEAR is not overwhelmingly powerful.

Would a 35 PRE be overwhelming in a 350pt game?

A 70PRE in a 350pt game would be unbalancing for sure.

Seems the real problem is that you don't think the concept works well at that level [700pts], in your game. Perhaps asking him to make a new character, not based on Fear, is your answer.

I quite agree with your conclusion. Wise words, and I'm going to say the same thing with lots more words, but no more wisdom.

You can't simply scale up though. A 70 point PRE is most certainly overwhelming if none of the opposition have more than 30. Moreover, 70 PRE is the very lower end of the scale here: we are talking 15-20d6, so 75-100 PRE is more the ticket, unless the GM is being stupidly generous with bonuses. What are they playing? Great Cthulu?

15d6 is 52 points of effect, or PRE+20 on a 30PRE (which I consider to be quite a decent total, even in a quite high powered game). 20d6 is 70 points: PRE+40 - instant surrender. You'd need 40 PRE not to instantly surrender, and that is just on an average roll, more like 50 or 60 to be safe, and if that is REQUIRED, it seems the character is skewing the game, and that is not a good thing.

Moreover, if the villains all need 50 or 60 PRE that is 40 or 50 points they are not spending on other powers, which weakens them against the rest of the team. Moreover you wind up with a spending war: everyone putting XP on PRE, which is silly too.

You can run every dodge in the book: automatons, mirror-world evil duplicates, ya-da ya-da ya-da, but you will run out of options and you will either have to repeat ad-nauseam or slide down to unprecedented levels of boredom.

The ONLY solution I can see here is the players wising up and being reasonable. If a GM tells you 'I am not happy with the way that power works', or, simply 'No', then you listen. Talk it out, by all means, but abide by the GM's decision.

There seems in some sectors to be a belief that restriction is a bad thing and that freedom to play anything you want is what this game is all about. Rubbish. This game, and all games of this ilk are about a group of people enjoying themselves. If they are not, someone, somewhere is doing something very wrong.

[Dr Archeville]

Actually, Sinanju, if you go back and read my posts, you'll see I don't "sincerely belive" Dead Head "needs" 70 PRE; I'd be fine with him having 45 PRE.

No, Dead Head's extra PRE wasn't in a Multipower slot, it was it's own thing. However, while everyone has been poking at the PC's/me, I feel it's only fair to point out that the GM himself has done something just as silly. One of his characters used as an NPC in the campaign has 100 STR, and +81 STR in a Multipower slot (though this extra STR is only for lifting, it does not add to damage, and has No Figured Characteristics).

[ghost-angel]

Actually, Sinanju, if you go back and read my posts, you'll see I don't "sincerely belive" Dead Head "needs" 70 PRE; I'd be fine with him having 45 PRE.

No, Dead Head's extra PRE wasn't in a Multipower slot, it was it's own thing. However, while everyone has been poking at the PC's/me, I feel it's only fair to point out that the GM himself has done something just as silly. One of his characters used as an NPC in the campaign has 100 STR, and +81 STR in a Multipower slot (though this extra STR is only for lifting, it does not add to damage, and has No Figured Characteristics).

Don't get me wrong - I personally feel your concept is just fine. The GM obviously has some reservations.

I suggest instead of just toning down the PRE you adjsut the effects of the PRE into some other type of thing. A Fear based aura of the Undead doesn't have to translate into just PRE: Fear Only.

[Sean Waters]

Actually, Sinanju, if you go back and read my posts, you'll see I don't "sincerely belive" Dead Head "needs" 70 PRE; I'd be fine with him having 45 PRE.

No, Dead Head's extra PRE wasn't in a Multipower slot, it was it's own thing. However, while everyone has been poking at the PC's/me, I feel it's only fair to point out that the GM himself has done something just as silly. One of his characters used as an NPC in the campaign has 100 STR, and +81 STR in a Multipower slot (though this extra STR is only for lifting, it does not add to damage, and has No Figured Characteristics).


First off, apologies: didn't mean to come over all judgemental. I was just looking at it from the GM POV as that is what started the thread. GM says it is a game breaker: do you agree? Do you win too many fights too easily?

As a GM and player, I tend to be more lenient on GMs, assuming that, if they come up with a monster villain (in the literal or figurative sense) then they have some way for the players to beat it/circumvent it/triumph. Mind you, as a player I've had some really good GMs.

As a GM I tend not to like players with 'all or nothing/threshold' powers, although I admit it does depend on the player and the game: point is I may have a bit of a bias :)

Finally I'm not keen on PRE mechanics anywway. Yes, Batman scares the bejeezus out of people but NOT most villains and not even all the mooks: they fight as often as they surrender. A big PRE attack scares every mook, and most of the villains.

However, I am willing to listen. (Which makes me sound like some kinda swami. Definitely not :))

Can I suggest adding 'only v mooks/the fearful' to your PRE attack: OK it is metagaming, but it will make the GM happy his villains aren't giving up instantly and make you happy that you get to terrify people. I'd define mooks as 'anyone with less than half your active point total who doesn't have 'fear based' defences and 'the fearful' as anyone with an appropriate disadvantage. That's putting a lot of trust in your GM: it might be worth it. It is probably worth at least -1: the ones you terrify you could KO with no trouble anyway: it is just crowd control.

Second, those spare points, can I suggest you buy negative skill rolls and call them 'In the grip of fear': whoever you fight loses OCV - they really are scared of hitting you.

Just a thought.

[Dr Archeville]

Dead Head's been in one fight [kinda]. So far all he's really done is walk into a warehouse where other supers were fighting some Facless Mook Soldiers. DH leaped in and let out a bloodcurdling roar (PRE attack on everyone); all the Mooks were cowed, 3 of the 5 PC's were Awed, 1 was Very Impressed, and 1 was Impressed. The game's really only just started, and up 'till now it's largely been rp stuff.

I do like the "Only vs. Mooks" thing for his extra PRE. Something like "only works vs. characters built on 225 Character Points or less" (PCs in this campaign are built on 550 + 150 Disad points) would seem alright... Randi? Any chance I can get +15 PRE with that limit?

The OCV penalties would be Change Environment w/ Selective, right? Hrm.. not sure how much I can get of that (27 points freed up from dropping the +40 PRE, but the power would need to include Reduced END (0 END; +1/2) b/c Dead Head has no Endurance (he's a quasi-Automaton-ish Undead).

[Sean Waters]

I have a good feeling about this :).

Randi: what do you think?

[Foxiekins]

Dead Head's been in one fight [kinda]. So far all he's really done is walk into a warehouse where other supers were fighting some Facless Mook Soldiers. DH leaped in and let out a bloodcurdling roar (PRE attack on everyone); all the Mooks were cowed, 3 of the 5 PC's were Awed, 1 was Very Impressed, and 1 was Impressed. The game's really only just started, and up 'till now it's largely been rp stuff.


Okay, if you'll pardon me butting in with some advice, I think this touches on the essense of the matter... Your character, in his first fight, jumped in on a raging battle, and put a stop to it with one action... In other words, you stole the scene away from the other 5 players... Why would they continue to play, if this continues to happen...?

If I were GMing, that incident would have touched off all kinds of danger signals for me as well, and I'd guess that's what prompted him to start this thread... One of the things I've learned over the years is that players hate having fights ended for them... If they're being beaten, it's a rescue... But if not, then it's just their character being made useless and redundant, and who would like that...?

Hopefully the changes you're making will alleviate the situation... The kicker I think, really, was the scream... It was effectively an indiscriminate Area Effect... Your character might work as written if you lay off the screaming...

[radioKAOS]

Hopefully the changes you're making will alleviate the situation... The kicker I think, really, was the scream... It was effectively an indiscriminate Area Effect... Your character might work as written if you lay off the screaming...

Actually yeah, take a limitation on the PRE -requires eye contact... [3 hexes range according to the book]

You corner a punk, look into his eyes. He sees the damnation of a million burning souls, and collapses from fear...

Add the Change Environment stuff and you're still 'in character' without breaking the game...

[prestidigitator]

One of the concepts for this character that I have stuck to in all his iterations is to in fact have him be to the Malagar team what Batman is to the JLA -- the uber-creepy spectre of doom focusing on infiltration, interrogation, and intimidation, dealing with cannon-fodder Mooks while the others deal with the main threat.
Then again, I hate to say it, but thinking like a GM of a 700-point campaign: "Okay. Dead Head goes and terrorizes all the mooks. Now, back to the action...." Mooks are mooks because they are rarely the center of attention.

[ghost-angel]

Dead Head's been in one fight [kinda]. So far all he's really done is walk into a warehouse where other supers were fighting some Facless Mook Soldiers. DH leaped in and let out a bloodcurdling roar (PRE attack on everyone); all the Mooks were cowed, 3 of the 5 PC's were Awed, 1 was Very Impressed, and 1 was Impressed. The game's really only just started, and up 'till now it's largely been rp stuff.

Ok, if that was his entrance to the group ... you should get extra experience points. That is a spectacular entrance.

If that becomes his schtick and a regular action ... then you've got a problem.

One instance of anything is not, and should not, be completely game breaking. It might short circuit the Plot Of The Moment. but that happens all the time. It's when we get into multiple instances of this type of thing - which is what the GM first implied with the original post - then some changes need to occur.

So - GM, Randi - how often has this type of issue occured?

[Old Man]

Let the PRE Attacks work.

Fine, the bad guys hand themselves over to the police. What happens when the scary hero isn't around anymore?

[Duke Bushido]

Oooh! Nasty!

[Dr Archeville]

Honestly, yes, the screaming indiscriminate PRE attack was, from an out-of-character/player POV, a bit much. In character, though, it made sense [to me, at least] -- Dead Head's been doing nothing but single-handedly fight undead on his home planet for the past year, until the crashed Perseid vessel showd up and they took him off. He saw people he was told were bad guys, and he used what he had to putt hem out of comiission. He has no concept of "teamwork" or "tactics," as he's never needed them. Now that he is working with a group, though, he'll soon learn the benefits of working with others (and that indiscriminate fire isn't always best).

[garou]

Perhaps a combination of changes? The Change Environment, Neg Skill Levels, and a high PRE (only for PRE attacks vs a single target, only to inspire fear). That way, everyone around you is a little creeped out, people fighting you are a little offbalance, and if you focus on some poor goon, you can really get him to whimper in fear.

[Polaris]

HELP!

I GM games on Hero Central where some of the players like to use overwhelming PRE attacks, walk in like Gods, roll 15 or 20d6 PRE, everyone surrenders, end of threat, end of game. Even with minuses like -1d6 for being in-combat, etc., it's still overwhelming. Everyone is Cowed, and they will do whatever they are told. "Surrender to the police and allow them to put on the megarestraints." Or "Bow down and worship me!" etc.

My response has been to tell them I do NOT like overwhelming PRE attacks and I simply will not allow them; no more than 30 PRE. But the players object. So they try to find other ways, like building a CE with +20 vs Ego, or Drain Ego, Ranged, AeO, lots of dice... or the occasional mentalist power gamer with a 20d6 power suite: Telepathy, Mental Illusions, Mind Control... which just kind of messes up any GM plans.

How do you suggest I handle players that want to have God-like Presence? Besides telling them to take a flying leap? Or introducing them to Menton?

Give a villain the power to reflect the power back at them, usable against PRE (so the PCs surrender to their own overwhelming PRE attack).

That would learn them...

Polaris

[gojira]

Yeah, but that's only after Randi posted that he'd tried putting limits on PRE and the players responded by rules-lawyering their way around those limits.

Well, that's true. But the character was initially accepted by the GM right? So the GM is going back on his word by saying "whoa you can't have that after all."

Really though this isn't a big deal. Dead Head got to scare some mooks. The GM just needs to kick up the power level to where Dead Head isn't all powerful. It's a really common problem when campaigns start up, happens all the time. Just adjust and go with it.


Let the PRE Attacks work.

Fine, the bad guys hand themselves over to the police. What happens when the scary hero isn't around anymore?

This is true. Once handcuffed or whatever, they'll stay put. But if the villians break them out of prison, it's big trouble.



Then again, I hate to say it, but thinking like a GM of a 700-point campaign: "Okay. Dead Head goes and terrorizes all the mooks. Now, back to the action...." Mooks are mooks because they are rarely the center of attention.

Yes again. Spot on, even. I'm gonna have to rep you. :)

[Dr Archeville]

In Randi's defense, no, the GM's not going back on his word. He failed to see the "Terror from beyond the Grave: +40 PRE; only for making & resisting fear-based PRE attacks" bit entirely, though it was written as clearly as all Dead Head's other powers and such. And, I did not explicitly mention it in the character's background/"fluff text."
In my defense, no mention was ever made in any House Rules thread about high PRE being a no-no. A campaign limt of 30 for all Primary Characteristics (except STR) was mentioned, but nowhere was it said extra PRE could not be added on as a Power, nowhere was it said high PRE attacks were frowned heavily on.

[gojira]

Yeah, I don't mean to sound like I'm accusing either side of doing anything bad. It's just a snafu that's easily corrected, is all.

[prestidigitator]

Give a villain the power to reflect the power back at them, usable against PRE (so the PCs surrender to their own overwhelming PRE attack).

That would learn them...
So a non-standard extension of Missile Deflection and Reflection...EVIL! Mwaa haa haa! :eg:

[Duke Bushido]

Excellent idea! I think my next mentalist villain is going to have to find a good sfx for such a construct......

[Zed-F]

My thoughts on the matter:

* You have 700 point characters with 100+ AP powers. That means you're going to be facing things like 10d6+ NNDs, 10d6+ Ego attacks, 20d6+ mind controls, and so forth in addition to massive honking PRE attacks. The GM should be prepared for such an eventuality, especially if it's a major theme of the character. GM NPCs have as many points as they need. If you need to give the major and even intermediate villains a whack of PRE defense, do so. Don't give it to *every* major villain or the PRE-god/dess will feel useless... but if you consider a 20d6 PRE attack should be comparable to a 20d6 mental power in terms of utility and effectiveness, you are not far off. The same holds true at a lesser level. If you are running a 350-point game, you can easily have 12-15d6 mentalists running around. Why not 12-15d6 PRE attackers? The mind controller can wreck your game just as easily as the PRE attacker if you're not prepared for him.

It's just a matter of the GM being prepared to have opponents capable of withstanding the PRE attack. Several good ideas such as automatons, PRE defense, using more mooks, etc. have already been presented. The PRE attack should work sometimes, and then it should also not work sometimes.

* Another way to go is to eliminate the "Cowed" level of PRE attacks entirely, and top out at the "Very Impressed" level -- especially in combat. This will result in a full phase of hesitation for anyone affected by the PRE attack, which is a substantial advantage for the heroes, especially when the attack affects many foes simultaneously.

* Finally, you could simply tone down the game. Attacks that go against exotic defenses such as MD, PowD, and PreD tend to get more effective the higher powered the game gets, as you get further from baseline stats and many people don't bother to buy up their PRE, EDO, etc. just because they're in a higher point game.

[zornwil]

The results of a PRE attack shouldn't outweigh both common sense and the genre (yes, I'm stating the obvious there, I know). Thus I have never factored that PRE+30 means that a dedicated thug or villain is going to just up and run away or surrender or the like. I generally (perhaps always?) would grant the DCV 0 for the phase. But my assumption is that a PRE attack should be lighter than Mind Control (particularly given the nature of cost and balance) and thus PRE Attack at +30 does NOT equal Mind Control at +30, it's more like Mind Control "+15" (between 10 and 20). I'm not suggesting this is the intent of the book, though I DO suggest that if you consider investment that the PRE Attack shouldn't be effectively cheaper than Mind Control (and before it's stated that the cost is "the same", bear in mind 5 points of PRE gives more benefit than just the PRE Attack, it's also defense and a skills-basis and PRE only for PRE Attack is, what, +1/2? so that should indicate a balance issue right there, PARTICULARLY as PRE Attack is de factor AoE LOS).

[Zed-F]

Agreed. 20d6 PRE attack should be equally valuable as 20d6 mind control (barring circumstantial factors such as PRE/Mental Defense) but that doesn't mean they should operate the same way. 20d6 of a mental power is focussed but deep; 20d6 PRE attack is broad but shallow.

The extra ancillary benefits of buying a lot of PRE are significant, true, but then it's easier to get away with putting a lot of mental attacks in an MP than it is to put PRE in an MP.

[zornwil]

I'd go a bit further - they should be less "valuable" because the points put into a 20d6 PRE attack are also funding a lot of other stuff, i.e., the cost/benefit is too high if a PRE Attack is "as valuable" as Mind Control. Just to be crystal-clear.

[Fox1]

I'd go a bit further - they should be less "valuable" because the points put into a 20d6 PRE attack are also funding a lot of other stuff, i.e., the cost/benefit is too high if a PRE Attack is "as valuable" as Mind Control. Just to be crystal-clear.

Given that PRE attacks are 0 END and Area effect....

That means its base effectiveness should be around 8d6 PRE = 20d6 Mind Control just off those two advantages.

Add in it's affect on skills and general role-playing fluff and that becomes more like 7d6 PRE Attack = 20d6 Mind Control.


IMO, the effect of PRE attacks are typically way overplayed by many GMs.

[Kirby]

My two cents on this:

The first slip on the slope was the high # of character points
If the GM didn't want super-high PRE, it should have been made clear (though anti-munchkinism is understood)
A character with 30 PRE shouldn't have 'bonus PRE' higher than his norm.
How is 'only for PRE attacks & defenses' a limitation, much less -1/2?
If all the players are doing this against your wishes, they're abusing the genre; either have this corrected or terminate their participation
Bring in Menton - if your reason is "I don't want my players to lose" then you're discrediting them by not challenging them (and he's not as tough against such high levels unless you strengthen him)
Bring in Takofanes. He has 60 PRE, +60 PRE "only for PRE attacks." He can also summon undead that really won't be affected by their PRE.
Bring in Dr. Destroyer AND his listed NPC helpers - at the PC power level, Dr. D. need not go it alone.
Crowns of Krim would be a beatable challenge for them.
If this is out of hand, you as GM have lost control which you should not do; nuke the game and start over with stricter and clearly-defined boundaries.

YMMV
Choose what you wish, disregard the rest.

[Zed-F]

The effects of PRE attacks usually last about a phase or two, a turn at most. Mind controls can last for turn after turn after turn, even before considering buying the END cost down. And in general you can accomplish a whole lot more useful things with a mind control than with a PRE attack -- or at least that's the way I play it.

I agree in general that a PRE attack's effects should be lesser relative to what you get from a similar AP mind control. I was trying to suggest that 100 AP worth of PRE should be comparable in utility to 100 AP worth of mind control, including the other bonuses of PRE. So it's up to the GM to make sure that this is the case.

[Hugh Neilson]

In general, I agree with your comments. Specifically, however, I have some comments on the following:


A character with 30 PRE shouldn't have 'bonus PRE' higher than his norm.

Here we disagree,at least as a general rule. This would eliminate, for example, FH's ability to turn the Undead. There's nothing wrong with a character having PRE as an "attack power" which commonly would exceed his base PRE. It doesn't really splve our example problem anyway - just buy your base PRE up to 40, and keep the +40 PRE power, and you're more powerful.


How is 'only for PRE attacks & defenses' a limitation, much less -1/2?

Several skills, and most spcial interaction, are based on P{RE. Whether the limit is -1/2 or -1/4 is a good question. If it were DEX, not for DEX skills, what limitation would you apply? [DEX because it has many skills and many non-skill uses] Making up for 5 points of lost PRE would require a 3 point skill level (+1 w/ all PRE skills), and woulldn't get you the beenfit of complimentary skills rolls, so it must have some value.


Bring in Menton/Takofanes/Dr. Destroyer/Crowns of Krim

To summarize these points for the priginal poster:

If you set the characters up as 700 point heroes, and then try to challenge them by sending in the same opposition you'd use for 350 point heroes, you shouldn't be surprised if the heroes crush the opposition. Twice as many 350 point opponents aren't going to challenge most 700 point characters.

You also need to consider the nature of your Heroe's attack powers. We had a standard Supers game some years age (I forget the point level) where one player brought in a Spidey homage. He had a 36d Entangle with a large AoE in his Multipower. That made mooks and agents a lot less useful against that group of characters, just because "Spidey" could take out large numbers of them with one shot. Your PRE problem is similar.

The challenges need to be tailored to the characters - opposition higly effective against one group may be ineffectual against another, and overpowered against a third, even if the three groups are made up of the same number of characters at the same point level.

[Dr Archeville]

My two cents on this:
How is 'only for PRE attacks & defenses' a limitation, much less -1/2?

"Only for PRE attacks & defenses" wouldn't be much of a limitation, true -- it couldn't be applied to PRE-based skills, but that's about it. "Only for Fear-Based PRE Attacks and only to Defend against Fear-Based PRE Attacks" would, IMO, definitely be a bigger limitation, though, which is why I took it as such.


My two cents on this:
Bring in Menton - if your reason is "I don't want my players to lose" then you're discrediting them by not challenging them (and he's not as tough against such high levels unless you strengthen him)
Bring in Takofanes. He has 60 PRE, +60 PRE "only for PRE attacks." He can also summon undead that really won't be affected by their PRE.
Bring in Dr. Destroyer AND his listed NPC helpers - at the PC power level, Dr. D. need not go it alone.
Crowns of Krim would be a beatable challenge for them.

It's a Galactic Champions game. Menton, Takofanes, Dr. Destroyer, and the Crowns of Krim are all long-dead. ;)


My two cents on this:
If this is out of hand, you as GM have lost control which you should not do; nuke the game and start over with stricter and clearly-defined boundaries.

This came up in the very first encounter. I think it's a bit early to "nuke the game" (especially when I've already told the GM I'd be more than willing to greatly reduce or even remove the extra PRE). :p

[Sean Waters]

PRE attacks are ranged, area effect attacks that can give a substantial combat advantage. They take no time to perform. Powerful mojo.

I don't feel at all bad about limiting their utility.

OK, somewhat house rule-esque, but....

How about this modifier for PRE attacks:

They were expecting you to show up at some point: PRE attack dice halved. If the crooks are expecting Batman to show up, they are not going to be too phased when he does. Of course if he doesn't show up where or when they expect, that is a different matter.

The other thing is that the modifiers to PRE attacks are all wrong - IMO.

There are far more you can add than you can subtract. I'd deal with this in the following way:

1. You can only add the BIGGEST SINGLE positive modifier: they do not stack. A GM can always add dice to this if the situation warrants it, but this should be rare. The ONLY exception is the Reputation Perk, which always stacks with the single biggest other positive modifier.

2. Negative modifiers do stack. Moreover, the listed penalties should all be doubled.

3. It is not all bad news: you CAN coordinate PRE attacks: if you do so then work out the biggest PRE attack and add +2d6 for 2 attackers, +3d6 for 4 attackers, +4d6 for 8 attackers and so on. Coordinating PRE attacks does take time: consider it a half phase combat action, so the best time to do it is usually right at the start of combat. Coordination dice (obviously) stack with the 'base attackers' PRE dice.

What this means is that it should be possible still to set up a really impressive PRE attack, but it will be virtually impossible to rely on PRE attacks as a primary offensive capability - which, IMO - is how it should be. Moreover, the best time to hit opponents with a PRE attack is right at the start when they are not expecting it. In addition, bacause negative modifiers are really going to sting you want to make sure you minimise their instance: PRE attacks are going to be far more about planning and role playing than just rolling dice.

The other thing you could do is roll 'fight or flight' dice. Basically roll 3d6 when a PRE attack is successful. On 12-, the target reacts as in the book. On any higher roll, the sudden whoosh of adrenaline kicks off the 'fight' reflex, and they become agressive rather than cowed.

Finally there should be a difference between different types of PRE attack. On the one hand you have the big flashy 'overwhelming' PRE attack that many of us know and love - designed to wow them with spectacle. This is what, in most cases, the book is describing.

OTOH you have the Dirty Harry 'Are you feeling lucky, punk?' type PRE attack. In this instance (if I recall right, the punk DID attack, but missed and got shot) the GM might expand the scope of the PRE attack. I personally feel that it should be the OCV, not the DCV that is lowered by PRE attacks - afterall, they make you jump, or shake - and this kind of 'psych out' attack could be ideal for that kind of treatment.

In summary - and I do whitter on, don't I - I'm not against PRE attacks, but I think there are rules that should be there to encourage their more creative uses.

[Hugh Neilson]

It's a Galactic Champions game. Menton, Takofanes, Dr. Destroyer, and the Crowns of Krim are all long-dead. ;)

First off, if you did not personally see the body, they are not dead. :)

If you saw the body, MAYBE they are dead. :p

More to the point, the characxter sheets can be used as-is or modified by the GM to create worthy adversaries for the PC's.

One final thought for you: If they aren't dead, how many years have they spent earning more xp? :shock:

[garou]

Actually, given the powers and the fluff text, it would be more than possible for Takofanes or the Crowns to surface once again. The crowns might be worn by new people, but they could show up again.

[Kirby]

Several skills, and most spcial interaction, are based on PRE. Whether the limit is -1/2 or -1/4 is a good question. ... Making up for 5 points of lost PRE would require a 3 point skill level (+1 w/ all PRE skills), and woulldn't get you the beenfit of complimentary skills rolls, so it must have some value..
Simply because "it must have some value" doesn't mean it needs to have a high value. Also, how many PRE based skills does the character have? If few to none, then it's really a non-issue, because it wouldn't be limiting. I think a -1/4 limitation is appropriate.



Bring in Menton/Takofanes/Dr. Destroyer/Crowns of Krim
To summarize these points for the priginal poster:

If you set the characters up as 700 point heroes, and then try to challenge them by sending in the same opposition you'd use for 350 point heroes, you shouldn't be surprised if the heroes crush the opposition. Twice as many 350 point opponents aren't going to challenge most 700 point characters.
What followed wasn't really relevant to what you quoted from me, but since the above is somewhat, I'll respond to that. The Crowns of Krim are six members whose points range from 388-816 (avg around 530) should be a decent challenge, but beatable. With PRE at 20-30 EGO from 14-20 and Psych lims such as Aura of Evil, Overconfidence, Sadistic, etc. a normally high PRE isn't going to be as effective as it is against civilians. Dr. Destroyer has a 60 PRE and is built on 2,500+ points. His written followers are built on 430, 576, and 678, a nice "Fearsome Foursome" team, not to mention the 600+ point destroids and his numerous 300 pt followers. Takofanes is built on 1,943 points and can summon up to 125 800-point Slavishly Loyal followers. The PCs' PRE attacks would be null and void against these. (As example, Superman may have a 75 PRE, but you know he's not going to torture you and your family like your 60 PRE Villain Master will.)

[Kirby]

"Only for PRE attacks & defenses" wouldn't be much of a limitation, true -- it couldn't be applied to PRE-based skills, but that's about it. "Only for Fear-Based PRE Attacks and only to Defend against Fear-Based PRE Attacks" would, IMO, definitely be a bigger limitation, though, which is why I took it as such.
The limitation "Only to make Presence Attacks" is a -1/2 Limitation. Including "and only to Defend" should reduce it to -1/4. "Against Fear-Based" would most likely be a -0 Limitation (how many non-fear/intimidation PRE attacks will you be subjected to? How often will you [and even have you] make [made] non-threatening PRE attacks?). You could create sonic or wind sfx powers that don't work in a vacuum, but if the campaign isn't likely to take place there even infrequently, it becomes a -0 Limitation.



It's a Galactic Champions game. Menton, Takofanes, Dr. Destroyer, and the Crowns of Krim are all long-dead. ;) That's irrelevant. Takofanes is dead in CU; in fact, he's undead. ;) However, the GM can change Menton's (1,800+ points) name to "Scion" and change his history yet still use the character sheet. Dr. Destroyer becomes "Annihilation," while Takofanes becomes "the Dark Lord" and the Crowns become his minions. The character sheets can still be valid.

Finally, the GM can still introduce these characters under their original name, if he wishes and this doesn't include the "if the character needs to be more powerful" suggestions.

[garou]

Finally, the GM can still introduce these characters under their original name, if he wishes and this doesn't include the "if the character needs to be more powerful" suggestions.
Actually, it's a little known fact that Dr. Destroyer et. al. are actually franchise operations, e.g.:

For the right fee, by filing all the appropriate paperwork and surrendering your soul to evil, you too could be the proud wearer of one of the Crowns of Krim. Imagine the gasps of awe, the screams of pain, and the sighs of anguish your friends and family will have when you show them that you now wear one of the coveted Crowns. For the price of your immortal soul, plus a sufficient cash contribution to the Dr. Destroyer Immortality Fund, you too can have the chance to lay waste to everything you once held dear, whether you want to or not.

Be the envy of all your friends - until you kill them!

Be the hunted of every superhero - until you kill them too!

Be the most wanted supervillain around - until Takofanes shows up and makes changes to your licensing agreement!

[Dr Archeville]

That's irrelevant. Takofanes is dead in CU; in fact, he's undead. ;) However, the GM can change Menton's (1,800+ points) name to "Scion" and change his history yet still use the character sheet. Dr. Destroyer becomes "Annihilation," while Takofanes becomes "the Dark Lord" and the Crowns become his minions. The character sheets can still be valid.

It's very relevant, actually, since you mentioned those specific characters by name, and those specific characters are dust in 3001. True, the character sheets can be used, just change the names/history, like you (and others) have said... but then you've got different characters. :p

(Semantics, yes, but I'm an English major, so words are kinda important to me.)


Gotta say I'm really thrilled about all this work y'all are doing in trying to completely screw my character over.... [Aside from his high PRE, about all he's got going for him is Desoldification (the Super-Contortionist version); some ablative Armor; some Mental, Power, and Flash defenses; and Regeneration (3 BODY/Turn), plus Life Support (full, 50-point version). He's got a few Martial Arts moves, with some added DC's, but even with those still does the least amount of damage of anyone else in the party; he also has the lowest PD/ED of anyone else] :mad: ;)

[Zed-F]

I don't personally think a 70 PRE-attack is unbalancing in a 700-pt. galactic champs game, providing that the GM and the player come to an agreement on what it does and does not allow the character to do. Good player-GM communication is important for any character with exotic powers.

In many storylines, such PRE attacks are really good against mooks and of limited utility against significant henchmen, much less bosses. In the scenario in question, it seemed to be 5 mooks facing a similar number of PCs. I should think the mooks, being totally outclassed, would be inclined to run away to begin with, even without a 70 PRE. A PRE attack from one of the other PRE 30 characters would likely have accomplished a similar result, given appropriate modifiers.

Randi has just had trouble with PRE attacks in the past being too unbalancing, so the attack is more a problem for this particular GM than it is in general. If Randi's willing to try the mechanisms proposed earlier in this thread for keeping a lid on PRE attacks, and you and he come to an agreement on the matter, well and good. Otherwise you might want to stick with a 30 PRE and use the points for something else.

[NuSoardGraphite]

It's a Galactic Champions game. Menton, Takofanes, Dr. Destroyer, and the Crowns of Krim are all long-dead. ;)



:p

Well, considering that Takofanes is already dead, a couple of thousand years shouldn't matter to him at all. In fact, in Galactic Champions, Takofanes should have an entire planet (system?) full of undead all to himself....

[ghost-angel]

It's very relevant, actually, since you mentioned those specific characters by name, and those specific characters are dust in 3001. True, the character sheets can be used, just change the names/history, like you (and others) have said... but then you've got different characters. :p

(Semantics, yes, but I'm an English major, so words are kinda important to me.)


Gotta say I'm really thrilled about all this work y'all are doing in trying to completely screw my character over.... [Aside from his high PRE, about all he's got going for him is Desoldification (the Super-Contortionist version); some ablative Armor; some Mental, Power, and Flash defenses; and Regeneration (3 BODY/Turn), plus Life Support (full, 50-point version). He's got a few Martial Arts moves, with some added DC's, but even with those still does the least amount of damage of anyone else in the party; he also has the lowest PD/ED of anyone else] :mad: ;)
Hey, I'm on your side. You're power shouldn't be unbalancing for a 700pt game.

You and the GM need to figure out exactly what the GMs problem is and work on a solution that doesn't take away from one of your main effects.

Personally I think your character had one of the greatest entrances I've seen in a while.

[zornwil]

I don't personally think a 70 PRE-attack is unbalancing in a 700-pt. galactic champs game, providing that the GM and the player come to an agreement on what it does and does not allow the character to do. Good player-GM communication is important for any character with exotic powers.

In many storylines, such PRE attacks are really good against mooks and of limited utility against significant henchmen, much less bosses. In the scenario in question, it seemed to be 5 mooks facing a similar number of PCs. I should think the mooks, being totally outclassed, would be inclined to run away to begin with, even without a 70 PRE. A PRE attack from one of the other PRE 30 characters would likely have accomplished a similar result, given appropriate modifiers.

Randi has just had trouble with PRE attacks in the past being too unbalancing, so the attack is more a problem for this particular GM than it is in general. If Randi's willing to try the mechanisms proposed earlier in this thread for keeping a lid on PRE attacks, and you and he come to an agreement on the matter, well and good. Otherwise you might want to stick with a 30 PRE and use the points for something else.
That really states it reasonably briefly in a solid way. I agree, and would just expand that in general high stats should be a matter of discussion but generally I don't think they become de facto unbalancing, so long as the theme of what Zed-f has stated is applied.

[Kirby]

It's very relevant, actually, since you mentioned those specific characters by name, and those specific characters are dust in 3001. True, the character sheets can be used, just change the names/history, like you (and others) have said... but then you've got different characters. :p

(Semantics, yes, but I'm an English major, so words are kinda important to me.)
Then perhaps you noticed the ";) " icon and my response including only Takofanes's name and the dead/undead reference? :rolleyes: It wasn't a serious statement.

Gotta say I'm really thrilled about all this work y'all are doing in trying to completely screw my character over....
That's a near-egocentric assumption. The first post didn't mention your character, it mentioned players.

HELP!

I GM games on Hero Central where some of the players like to use overwhelming PRE attacks, walk in like Gods, roll 15 or 20d6 PRE, everyone surrenders, end of threat, end of game. Even with minuses like -1d6 for being in-combat, etc., it's still overwhelming. Everyone is Cowed, and they will do whatever they are told. "Surrender to the police and allow them to put on the megarestraints." Or "Bow down and worship me!" etc.

My response has been to tell them I do NOT like overwhelming PRE attacks and I simply will not allow them; no more than 30 PRE. But the players object. So they try to find other ways, like building a CE with +20 vs Ego, or Drain Ego, Ranged, AeO, lots of dice... or the occasional mentalist power gamer with a 20d6 power suite: Telepathy, Mental Illusions, Mind Control... which just kind of messes up any GM plans.

How do you suggest I handle players that want to have God-like Presence? Besides telling them to take a flying leap? Or introducing them to Menton?

[Dr Archeville]

That's a near-egocentric assumption. The first post didn't mention your character, it mentioned players.

True, it does... but since my actions are what sparked Randi to make this post/seek help from everyone in the first place, and the vast majority of the advice folks have been giving would be used to 'punish' said characters -- which includes mine -- my comment is not completely off, nor wholly ego-driven.

And at any rate, I myself was somewhat kidding, hence the ";)" at the end of that post.