IK Hero?

[zakueins]

Would anybody be interested in seeing a version of Iron Kingdoms converted over to Hero 5th?

[AlHazred]

When I demoed Warmachine at GenCon, I was left with the feeling that it should be relatively easy to port to Hero. I'm not that familiar with the IK setting behind it. Tell us a little more.

[TheQuestionMan]

Susinctly YES!!!

;)

QM

[zakueins]

Think of it as steampunk fantasy-major magic, guns (that use alchemy rather than chemical-based propellants), steam robots, etc, etc.

When I demoed Warmachine at GenCon, I was left with the feeling that it should be relatively easy to port to Hero. I'm not that familiar with the IK setting behind it. Tell us a little more.

[AlHazred]

I recall the Warcasters and the Warjacks. Like I said, seemed an interesting thing to port to Hero - with a naked Indirect advantage for the Warcaster, limited to allowing him to cast any spell through the spear-carrier Warjacks. Focus being placed on Warjacks to allow them extra attacks and such is basically similar to them having powers that draw on the END Reserve of the Warcaster; when he runs out of END for the turn, that's it for special Warjack abilities. The Warcaster actually having to "place" Focus on the Warjacks would be a House Rule that requires the Warcaster to allocate his END at the beginning of the Phase.

[Shadowpup]

Come on, with stuff like this for inspiration, who wouldn't want it ported to HERO?

[Shadowpup]

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[Shadowpup]

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[Shadowpup]

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[Shadowpup]

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[Shadowpup]

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[Shadowpup]

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[Shadowpup]

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[Shadowpup]

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[Shadowpup]

x

[zakueins]

I'd probably buy Warjacks that had a arc node (which lets you do remote casting) as a VPP w/ the limitation "can only cast a spell that the bonded Warcaster can cast" and "only can use the END of the Warcaster".

I recall the Warcasters and the Warjacks. Like I said, seemed an interesting thing to port to Hero - with a naked Indirect advantage for the Warcaster, limited to allowing him to cast any spell through the spear-carrier Warjacks. Focus being placed on Warjacks to allow them extra attacks and such is basically similar to them having powers that draw on the END Reserve of the Warcaster; when he runs out of END for the turn, that's it for special Warjack abilities. The Warcaster actually having to "place" Focus on the Warjacks would be a House Rule that requires the Warcaster to allocate his END at the beginning of the Phase.

[AlHazred]

You could do it that way, too, sure. But I think the Indirect will come out a bit more, er, elegantly, i.e., be simpler for the player/GM to implement; this is especially true since VPPs can be a pain to adjust - if the arc node Warjack adjusts the VPP on his SPD, but the Warcaster has a different SPD, then... But, as always, YMMV.

[zakueins]

Tho, if I felt really, really nasty...I'd buy the Arc Node as a follower of the Warjack. :)

You could do it that way, too, sure. But I think the Indirect will come out a bit more, er, elegantly, i.e., be simpler for the player/GM to implement; this is especially true since VPPs can be a pain to adjust - if the arc node Warjack adjusts the VPP on his SPD, but the Warcaster has a different SPD, then... But, as always, YMMV.

[zakueins]

Probably going to build the characters as templates with lenses-two templates (race and career), with lenses (to deal with specific character types).

Magic is tricky in the game-for clerics to heal outside of the faith, there's a very good chance of Bad Things (TM) happening.

[AlHazred]

Tho, if I felt really, really nasty...I'd buy the Arc Node as a follower of the Warjack. :)
I'd probably do that anyway, since the Warjacks are somewhat crappy without the Warcaster backing them up with Focus.

The chance of Bad Things happening when clerics heal outside their faith is easily handled with Side Effects, suitably modified.

Healing BODY 3d6 (30 Active Points); Side Effects (occurs whenever the character does some specific act (heals someone outside the faith and fails his roll), Side Effect affects both character and recipient of Power's benefits; Bad Things happen; -1/2), Requires A Faith Roll (-1/2)

You could give casters a +4 bonus to their roll to heal people of their own faith and -2 to heal others, for instance, to make healing the faithful a sure thing. Or you could get rid of the faith roll and just apply the roll as an Activation Roll to the Side Effect; I'd say that reduces the value of the Side Effect by 1/4.

[zakueins]

According to Liber Mechanika (http://www.privateerpress.com/default.php?x=products/pip403), Warjacks use the most powerful (i.e. "smart") cortex avalable-which makes them a bit smater than the average dog. They're good at figuring out how to handle orders, but not too good at making up their own. Buy them at INT 5-6, with a +6 INT with the limitation of "only when following external orders", which should give a good sense of their intellegence. To represnet the bond, I'd add Mind Link and Psy Lim (Reprogrammable Duty, Only To Bonded Warcaster).

Hm...I like the side effect idea. My only issue is how to handle magic-personally, I'm just going to go with a VPP with the (initial) limitation of "Only Previously Memorized Spells".

I'd probably do that anyway, since the Warjacks are somewhat crappy without the Warcaster backing them up with Focus.

The chance of Bad Things happening when clerics heal outside their faith is easily handled with Side Effects, suitably modified.

Healing BODY 3d6 (30 Active Points); Side Effects (occurs whenever the character does some specific act (heals someone outside the faith and fails his roll), Side Effect affects both character and recipient of Power's benefits; Bad Things happen; -1/2), Requires A Faith Roll (-1/2)

You could give casters a +4 bonus to their roll to heal people of their own faith and -2 to heal others, for instance, to make healing the faithful a sure thing. Or you could get rid of the faith roll and just apply the roll as an Activation Roll to the Side Effect; I'd say that reduces the value of the Side Effect by 1/4.

[Captain Obvious]

According to Liber Mechanika (http://www.privateerpress.com/default.php?x=products/pip403), Warjacks use the most powerful (i.e. "smart") cortex avalable-which makes them a bit smater than the average dog. They're good at figuring out how to handle orders, but not too good at making up their own.

This actually could be simulated by using the Artificial Intelligence rules. An AI has to make an EGO roll to carry out any action on its own. And since a Warjack presumably should be built as an Automaton (ie without EGO), the cortex would be a splendid Hero-mechanics AI....

[AlHazred]

To represnet the bond, I'd add Mind Link and Psy Lim (Reprogrammable Duty, Only To Bonded Warcaster).How does the bond function in Iron Kingdoms? Do the two actually communicate? Do the Warjacks follow any order their Warcaster thinks at them?

Hm...I like the side effect idea. My only issue is how to handle magic-personally, I'm just going to go with a VPP with the (initial) limitation of "Only Previously Memorized Spells".That's fine. It really depends on the magic system's mechanics - do they use the default D&D 3.5 magic system, or did Monte Cook come up with something new for them?

[zakueins]

From what the fluff text is, warcasters use mental commands (as part of their training), while "normal" casters use verbal commands and the bond link to "authorize" them.

The magic system is pure D20, with a few extra spells.

How does the bond function in Iron Kingdoms? Do the two actually communicate? Do the Warjacks follow any order their Warcaster thinks at them?

That's fine. It really depends on the magic system's mechanics - do they use the default D&D 3.5 magic system, or did Monte Cook come up with something new for them?

[Trencher]

Would anybody be interested in seeing a version of Iron Kingdoms converted over to Hero 5th?
YES!

[Shadowpup]

YES!

Oh yeah if you didn't understand me the first, time...YES

[shadow_walker]

Someday I'll play this game.

[zakueins]

So will I.

Especially if I actually get it converted over to Hero 5th. :)

Someday I'll play this game.

[Admiral C]

Would anybody be interested in seeing a version of Iron Kingdoms converted over to Hero 5th?

I haven't seen anything but the War Machine Apothesis book and my copy of the Monsternomicon (Iron Liches rock). I'd love to do something with IK but I have no idea how to pitch something like that to my players.

Adm

[Shadowpup]

Try to get your hands on the first few issues of Battlechasers. Have them read it. Say "That is the kind of world we're gonna play in."

[BlackSword]

That's fine. It really depends on the magic system's mechanics - do they use the default D&D 3.5 magic system, or did Monte Cook come up with something new for them?
The Iron Kingdoms setting uses the standard d20 magic, but they do dump some spells to lower the magic of the setting (for instance, Raise Dead is gone, the only spell a Cleric can use to resurrect someone is the 9th level spell). They continually push that its a low magic setting, but its hard to do with d20.

I think that IK would work much better in HERO. With the use of separate STUN and BODY a character can be hurt in combat, but it in many cases will not require healing, just time to rest and regain STUN. Taking BODY will be bad news, as it will require finding a healer of similar faith, or drinking a potion which might have side effects. Switching systems will allow the GM to dump the spell list and limit magic to the level he wants, or even make magic more difficult with required skill rolls.

Guess I am saying, I think Iron Kingdoms would work great in Hero. Interested in seeing some conversions for Warjacks and unique abilities such as the Warcaster's ability to command 'jacks and cast spells through them. Hero also allows dumping the traits of d20 that seem to not fit in the game.

[zakueins]

I fully agree-but, D20 is the 600 pound gorilla of RPGs these days, which is a shame. A conversion over to Hero 5th could only be seen as making the setting much better. :)

The Iron Kingdoms setting uses the standard d20 magic, but they do dump some spells to lower the magic of the setting (for instance, Raise Dead is gone, the only spell a Cleric can use to resurrect someone is the 9th level spell). They continually push that its a low magic setting, but its hard to do with d20.

I think that IK would work much better in HERO. With the use of separate STUN and BODY a character can be hurt in combat, but it in many cases will not require healing, just time to rest and regain STUN. Taking BODY will be bad news, as it will require finding a healer of similar faith, or drinking a potion which might have side effects. Switching systems will allow the GM to dump the spell list and limit magic to the level he wants, or even make magic more difficult with required skill rolls.

Guess I am saying, I think Iron Kingdoms would work great in Hero. Interested in seeing some conversions for Warjacks and unique abilities such as the Warcaster's ability to command 'jacks and cast spells through them. Hero also allows dumping the traits of d20 that seem to not fit in the game.

[Savinien]

Everyone agrees. It is a great idea to convert. Now, all we need is the convertor!

[Thia Halmades]

They weren't kidding - it is very similar to the setting I created. WACKY. I don't need a port. I've written half of this already. :)

[BlackSword]

I fully agree-but, D20 is the 600 pound gorilla of RPGs these days, which is a shame. A conversion over to Hero 5th could only be seen as making the setting much better. :)
I'm not going to argue with Privateer's decision to go with d20, from a business perspective it makes sense. You are right, though, its a shame, the game works better in non-d20 rules. Also its odd, in the minatures combat they include some d20-isms, such as Attack of Opportunity.
Everyone agrees. It is a great idea to convert. Now, all we need is the convertor!
I am willing to work on it some. I have the Iron Kingdoms Character Guide, which includes the Races and Classes. It works out since some of my group had even been talking about converting it and playing it at a later date.

[Savinien]

I will offer enthusiasm to the project. Other than that...

I got nothing.

[Enforcer84]

I'm playing d20 Iron Kingdoms right now. It's a scary place, but fun as heck.

[zakueins]

First things first, since IK is so D20-based, it's time to work out the D20-to-Hero 5th conversions. Get that done, we're about 70% done with IK Hero (the few non-standard races can be built up and such).

[BlackSword]

First things first, since IK is so D20-based, it's time to work out the D20-to-Hero 5th conversions. Get that done, we're about 70% done with IK Hero (the few non-standard races can be built up and such).
I believe that a d20-to-Hero conversion has been done on Killer Shrike's web-page. Because of that resource, I think the main work is just writing up IK specific differences (races, classes, and the big hunk, mekanics).

[Jkeown]

They weren't kidding - it is very similar to the setting I created. WACKY. I don't need a port. I've written half of this already. :)

I know how you feel. I invented Steampunk in FH back in 1986. Makes me sick sometimes. Caleon (http://www.geocities.com/jephkay@sbcglobal.net) is similar in many ways to Ebberon and IK.

Makes wanna be mean to Keith Baker. Real Mean.

[Killer Shrike]

Send me the books and a SASE, and Ill convert the specific IK content and send the books back.

[Shadowpup]

Send me the books and a SASE, and Ill convert the specific IK content and send the books back.

WHOA...you CANNOT pass up such an oportunity.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Every time I see this topic I wonder what the heck an Inverse Kinematics Hero would be. Maybe he's kind of like Matt Keller in Niven's A Gift from Earth, telekinetically adjusting your body language, and thereby changing your emotional state through a sort of nonverbal communication/subtle feedback thingy.

[Curufea]

You spend too much time with 3D programs :)

[Wolfe-Chan]

I am working on converting Iron Kingdoms to Hero and was wondering how people would implement the Gobbers camoflage ability?

Any suggestions?

TIA

[Shadowpup]

What does it do?

It might be something as simple as Stealth or Concealment. If it is combat worthy then +DCV.

[Wolfe-Chan]

It is a Chameleon like ability not sure how to implimet it in Hero.
They get a +4 bonus to Hide checks when they are not wearing any clothes.

[tgrandjean]

Sheesh. Easy. Either Invisibility to Sight (w/fringe) or +4-8 skill levels w/ Concealment.

Adding another to the 'Send KS a book crowd'!

[Shadowpup]

Come Monday, if I have the cash and my local game store has it, I will pick it up. If KS does the conversion it would be just like buying IK Hero.

[Wolfe-Chan]

I am working on Converting it now I am picking my copy of the IKCG tomorrow and should have most of the packages done by next week. As long as I do not get to board.

I am looking at doing things a might sparce for package deals as I like them to be small and not take to many points.

Still trying to figure out what kind of Magic System I will want to use not sure what would be good and cool. Any suggestions?


And as for feats I will probably just ignore that stuff and just work on skills and package stuff for different professions in the Iron Kingdoms. eg Cygnarian Military packages and such. And specific skills that you need to do certain things.

I want to have a talent that you will have to buy if you want to be a Warcaster. Maybe a Mechanik talent as well. Still debating on that stuff I am starting with the racial packages and working from there.

How about damage conversions? Not sure how to do that.

Wolfe-Chan

[Wolfe-Chan]

Ok here is what I have so far tell me what you think ok.

Everyman Skills


Breakfall
Climbing
Concealment
Conversation
Deduction
Native Language(4 points worth, no literacy)
Other Languages(3 points worth, no literacy)
Persuasion
One PS at 11- (Job, hobby, or the like)
Shadowing
Stealth
AK: Home country or region




Racial Package Deals


Dwarf Package


Abilities


Cost Abilities
6 +3 Con
4 +2 Body
3 Bump of Direction
2 LS:longevity (x4 lifespan)
5 Infrared Perception
7 LS:Immunity to poisons
Total Cost of Package Abilities: 27


Disadvantages


Value Disadvantage
2 -1” running
10 Distinctive Features (Dwarf) (Concealable with difficulty)
10 Psychological Limitation (Oath Bound) (Common, Moderate)
Total Value of Package Disadvantages: 22


Iosan Package


Abilities
Cost Abilities
6 +2 Dex
5 Ultraviolet Perception (Sight)
3 LS: Longevity (16x Life Span)
2 LS: Immunity to Sleep Spell Effects
2 5 Pts. Power Defence (only for Enchantment Effects) -1 1/2
2 +1 to Divination Skill rolls
2 +1 to Perception rolls
Total Cost of Package Abilities: 22


Disadvantages


Value Disadvantage
4 -2 CON
2 -1 BODY
10 Distinctive Looks (Iosan Elf) (Concealable With Effort)
Total Value of Package Disadvantages: 16


Nyss Elf Package


Abilities
Cost Abilities
6 +2 Dex
2 +2 PRE
5 Ultraviolet Perception (Sight)
3 LS: Longevity (16x Life Span)
2 LS: Immunity to Sleep Spell Effects
3 5 Pts. Power Defence Vs. Cold based attacks -1
2 +1 to Divination Skill rolls
2 +1 to Perception rolls
Total Cost of Package Abilities: 25


Disadvantages
Value Disadvantage
4 -2 EGO
10 1 1/2x Stun from heat based attacks
10 Distinctive Looks (Nyssan Elf)
Total Value of Package Disadvantages: 24


Gobber Package


Abilities


Cost Abilities
6 +3 DEX
5 Ultraviolet Perception (Sight)
4 +2 with Concealment Camouflage
Total Cost of Package Abilities: 15


Disadvantages


Value Disadvantage
2 -2 STR
2 -1 CON
10 Distinctive Features (Gobber) (Concealable with major effort)
Total Value of Package Disadvantages: 14

[BlackSword]

Still trying to figure out what kind of Magic System I will want to use not sure what would be good and cool. Any suggestions?

From the arcane stand point, I don't mind d20s separation of Wizards and Sorcerors. Wizards learn spells through study and practice, while sorcerors have some innate ability to see and shape arcane forces. Building the magic system with Hero does allow reshaping of the spell lists to better reflect the setting.

I have only glanced at KS's webpage, but I could see building sorcerors with an MP (they have a limited number of spells they know, but can cast like mad)
and wizards with a VPP that can only be changed through meditation. Spells could cost long term END that is only recovered with sleep.

For Clerics. Not sure about the system, perhaps similar to the wizard VPP changed by prayer. For the limitation on Healing per day, total number of BODY healed per day must be equal to or less than the Cleric's EGO rolle (ie, if the EGO roll is 11-, the Cleric can only heal 11 total BODY per day). If the subject is not of the Cleric's faith, then the Cleric needs to make an EGO roll or can't heal the subject. Then add in all the fun side effects of healing.

[Lord Liaden]

A while back, naturaltwenty posted a link to a small PDF he'd created for a HERO version of a warcaster - I'm assuming it's a conversion of a published Iron Kingdoms character, since he said he'd based it on some of the available preview downloads:

http://www.naturaltwenty.com/downloads/iron_kingdoms_warcaster.pdf

[Wolfe-Chan]

I was wondering what peoples opinion on Packages are I am not sure I should even bother working on specific packages for things like professions or character archetypes there seems to be no point in 5e revised to make packages worth taking. They are a lot of work and if no one is going to bother taking them it would be a lot of work for nothing.

Should I put the work in or just work more on the magic and more setting oriented skills and talents and let the players define who and what they are?

Just wondering what people thought... :dh:

[Andrew Byers]

I was wondering what peoples opinion on Packages are I am not sure I should even bother working on specific packages for things like professions or character archetypes there seems to be no point in 5e revised to make packages worth taking. They are a lot of work and if no one is going to bother taking them it would be a lot of work for nothing.

Should I put the work in or just work more on the magic and more setting oriented skills and talents and let the players define who and what they are?

Just wondering what people thought... :dh:

Personally, I'd rather see you concentrate your efforts on magic. I agree with you, I think we can figure out the character/profession archetypes easily enough, but in the past I've found it somewhat of a pain to convert D&D/d20 spells and the like to Hero. I'd love to see your take on IK magic.

[John Desmarais]

I was wondering what peoples opinion on Packages are I am not sure I should even bother working on specific packages for things like professions or character archetypes there seems to be no point in 5e revised to make packages worth taking. They are a lot of work and if no one is going to bother taking them it would be a lot of work for nothing.

Should I put the work in or just work more on the magic and more setting oriented skills and talents and let the players define who and what they are?

Just wondering what people thought... :dh:

Packages exist to provide consitancy and to help to players. How important is it to you that all fighters have a set number of features in common? If it's important, make a package. If it isn't, don't. Do you rplayers need the help that a package framework provides?

In a fantasy game, the only type of packages I worry about are racial archtypes. All elves have the following traits: yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda. All dwarves have the follow traits: yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda. If you want to be an elf you must have all of the things in teh package, or you ain't one.

[Shadowpup]

Just how different is the magic system between Iron Kingdoms d20 and WarMachine (the table top miniatures wargame set in IK)?

I like the way magic works in WarMachine.

[BlackSword]

Just how different is the magic system between Iron Kingdoms d20 and WarMachine (the table top miniatures wargame set in IK)?

I like the way magic works in WarMachine.
I've looked through the quick start rules for WarMachine, but don't have a good feel for how magic works in the miniatures game. In IK, magic is basically d20 with some exceptions. They removed some spells that do not fit in the cosmology of Iron Kingdoms. Healing is more difficult, and ressurrection is rare. Rangers lose their spell casting ability, but they add a new class called the Gun Mage, which is a sorceror who can cast spells through their gun and can make 'touch attacks' with a bullet.

I haven't read much of the Warcaster rules, but from what I remember Warcasters can cast spells through their Warmachines. So if a Warcaster has a cone spell, the cone either starts from him, or it can start from his machine. There may be another rule in there about how he casts the spell or any prep he must do.

Healing - Don't have the rules with me. But with healing, a caster is limited to a number of HP they can heal per day(formula based on caster level, WIS bonus, and some other factors). If the caster goes over that HP max per day then bad things start to happen. Healers can only heal people up to one degree of separation from them on the alignment chart (hence NG healer can heal, NG, LG, CG, N), beyond that healing can have consequences. The fifth level Raise Dead was removed. Ressurrection has consequences. Much more is made of religion (though the game world only has five deities) and how priests of various religions will help you. For instance a Cleric of Menoth will only heal those faithful to Menoth.

Potions - There are still magic potions, but they are rarer than typical d20. Alchemy is the use of magic to help extract helpful chemicals out of plants and imbue the potion with magic properties. Alchemic potions can have side effects. Apothecary is simply brewing plants (with no magic involved) to make various elixirs, again there are side effects. For instance, a healing potion may up your HP, but the rapid healing may temporarily drain your CON and make the character tired. This is one area where I think Hero works a lot better that trying to cludge the round IK setting into the square d20 hole.

Magic Weapons - Purely magic weapons are rare. There is a pretty restrictive XP cap on what a caster can spend on their Craft Magic Weapons/Armor feat. Above that XP cap, backlash comes into play which could kill or maim a caster. Most magic weapons are mekanical, they use magic plates to mimic special abilities, and the plates have to be 'charged' in order work. So you have ensure you have a battery charger (an arcane caster) or take plenty of AA batteries on long journies.

That's my impression from a single read through of the book. :)

[Shadowpup]

I've looked through the quick start rules for WarMachine, but don't have a good feel for how magic works in the miniatures game.


Warcasters generate a given amount of Focus every turn. Focus is used for various things. If they do not use it, it improves their Armor rating making them tougher.

They can allocate Focus to their warjacks so that the warjack can perform special attacks, improve their to-hit rolls, improve their damage rolls or make extra attacks.

Focus is also used to cast spells. A warcaster has a specified set of spells that they can use but can cast each as many times as they want during their turn as long as they have enough focus to power them (there are a handful of exceptions).

Focus is like an END Battery, but that END Battery can power a bunch of stuff. Seems easier to model than d&d-esque magic.

[Wolfe-Chan]

Well I have done a little general magic work for my IK campaign. I so far have three seperate magic system bases for the three different forms of magic: Sorcerous, Arcane, and Divine.

Here is what I have so far.

Magic Systems


Arcane Magic


You must have one of the School Skills to cast the appropriate spell if you do not have the spell school skill you can make a roll at 8- to cast a spell you do not have the skill to cast.
Spells will be bought like regular powers but the Real cost will be divided by 3 maximum active cost will be 100 points. Must take Incantations ½, Gestures ½, RSR Magic school skill ½, Concentration ¼.


Sorcerer Magic


Will be a VPP of no more the 50 points in the pool, Limitations will include Gestures -½, Incantations -½, RSR EGO based magic skill to change spell pool -½, Extra time 20 minutes to change pool -2, Concentration ¼.


Divine Magic


Divine magic will be bought as a VPP that is no more the 50 point pool. Limitations on the Control cost will be OIF Holy symbol -½, Gestures -½, Incantations -½, Can only change the pool once a day after 20 minutes of meditation -4, Concentration ¼.




Now I have not done any work on spells so far themselves but as I really do not like the limiting way spells are done in D&D I will probably just let the Characters come up with there own spells or help them make some.



Please tell me what you think of the basic ideas I have here and any suggestions to further make the magic systems more Ik'ish. I am still reading threw the book so I will have to stop here till I get that done but should be soon tho.

[Shadowpup]

I've finally figured out what my problem is with converting d20 IK to HERO IK.

Just because the D&D style magic system was used to make IK magic, doesn't mean D&D style magic is good for representing IK magic.

So converting the broken D&D system to HERO might not be a good idea. Instead, look at the IK source material and come up with something that fits IK better using the HERO system to make it.

[katal3]

A permutation of Rune-Forging could work very well. perhaps a "Focus" based magic system were in order to use magic the caster has to first engrave mystic symbols and such into an item in order to acess certain types a powers. sort of like Pre-construction Transmutation circles in the series Full Metal Alchemist, (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=836678&mode=linear#post836678 , The list of available Power Types is greater of course.

[katal3]

of course I don't know the setting too well so...

[Wolfe-Chan]

Unfortunitly because they made the setting for d20 there is a lot of setting specific stuff they had to make fit so they molded the setting. So to make the setting work you have to still use the broken magic systems but you do not have to make all the lame spells that are all typed out for you and in levels and such.
You do have to try to make the various systems to work with the setting tho.
I guess you could just work around the whole lame wizard sorceror-wizard thing but it is used in the camapign setting very extensively.

What I tried to do was create a basic magic systems that will work in the setting with to much modification. (I am lazy)

Is there any suggestions on doing it differently then I suggested? I would really lie to hear your ideas on what I can do to improve on what I came up with.

Thanx
Wolfe-Chan

[katal3]

Turn Sorcery into a Multi-Power base, then make Wizardry the VPP, with the limitation that all pwoers can have only 1 Charge (to cast multiple times you buy the power multiple times in the VPP) and powers can only be changed after 8 hours of rest.
Devine Magic really isn't all that different form Arcane, just with differeing SFX limitations

[Wolfe-Chan]

Turn Sorcery into a Multi-Power base, then make Wizardry the VPP, with the limitation that all pwoers can have only 1 Charge (to cast multiple times you buy the power multiple times in the VPP) and powers can only be changed after 8 hours of rest.
Devine Magic really isn't all that different form Arcane, just with differeing SFX limitations

I am trying to get away from the silly limitation of d20 spells in rthe oh you can only cast this spell so many times a day. End is a very good way to limit spells. You can only cast so many spells before you run out of end and in a heroric campaign even a mage will not have too much endurance so in any given combat he will only be able to cast so many spells.

I do think that I am going to change the Arcane Magic to a VPP but just can only change spells once a day.

And make the Sorcerors Pool a little more versatile.

[katal3]

Unfortunitly because they made the setting for d20 there is a lot of setting specific stuff they had to make fit so they molded the setting. So to make the setting work you have to still use the broken magic systems but you do not have to make all the lame spells that are all typed out for you and in levels and such.
You do have to try to make the various systems to work with the setting tho.
I guess you could just work around the whole lame wizard sorceror-wizard thing but it is used in the camapign setting very extensively.

What I tried to do was create a basic magic systems that will work in the setting with to much modification. (I am lazy)

Is there any suggestions on doing it differently then I suggested? I would really lie to hear your ideas on what I can do to improve on what I came up with.

Thanx
Wolfe-Chan
That seemed to indicate you were going for a more "pure" conversion. In anycase, I don't know much about the setting, but if your going through the trouble to convert it into hero you may as well fix some of its mechanical inconsistancies, otherwise your probably better off playing IK in D20. Alrighty then, lets get cracking. I read up as much as I can without having to buy the books so there are probably gaps in my sugestions

Overall my first sugestion (again) would be to adopt perhaps Rune-Forging or Seal-Magic for the "Wizardry" stuff, since those systems are well suited to making magic items as part of their core mechanics. They can also be used to easilly synthesize the "Gun-Mage". War casters only really have one unique power, a Telepathy; Only to Machine Class Minds. (Warjacks all take Physical Lim: Must follow commands by Bonded Warcaster). which is fine, D20 based products are rife with pseudo-psionics anyway so few will mind "breaking-system" for that ability.
Speaking of Pseudo-Psionics: Sorcery was mentioned as being very important. thats pretty easy to handle, Sorcery could be easilly handled as a MP full of Illusion, Enchantment, and a smidgeon of divination for a "true" sorcerer, or left more open for the "Walking-Artility" of the same name represented in DnD, but would definitly be End Based. Although depending on vagrencies of IK's representation of magic, adding a Mana (MAN) based on EGO could be highly appropiate.
From there, Divine Magic should be handled as a VPP using the common limitations I described for Wizardry above + the "Only When Serving Gods Purposes" this handy little catch-all is quite appropiate to the IK, as long as you actually enforce it. Gods wouldn't heal non-believers, not likely to buff them either unless the Clerics prayer is really good*, and wouldn't smite believers, etc.
*(represented perhaps as a sucessful persuasion roll, with negative modifiers appropiate to the audiance and the desired spell target)
As far as handleing Warjacks and Steamjacks thats not too tough. built them as you Basic Automoton with all the fixins. then Apply the Physical Lim mentioned above, as well as a Dependance: 20 Galleons of Fresh Water, every time 'jack is refeuled with Coal (or roughly 1-3 Hours (depending on model)), and Phys Lim: Boiler (stateing that it can only use END with the SFX of burned material (usually coal)). Buy its END down to zero. Then simply calculate roughly how much END an efficient model can burn through in an hour of combat. I'm assuming 4/phase and SPD 3 (which is actually probably a little high) if you don't go overboard. Based on my Calculations the "Average" Steamjack would need 3600 END over the course of an hour. Thats a bit high... for more realistic time it at 20 minutes of Combat power, or 1200 END.
Don't forget though, just about everything in IK is dependant upon Steam Boilers, so find an END level that comes closest to the proper Activation window's presented in the series, your not likely to get an exact figure from a conversion.

Now to define define Coal (and other burnables, based on material and weight) as non-recovering END reserves (only for Boilers)(-1), OAF Expendable(Feul, easially ruined by water or fire; Easilly obtained -1), Independant (-2).
Based upon END Use expectancies over an Hour and again over 20 minutes (depending upon GM preference), The following END Reserve levels would be appropiate per lb. (to convert lb. to kg multiply by 0.4536). For the lower levels I'm jsut guesstimating, I havn't done any research in RL efficiency of Various burn-ables. Obviously the lower you go from Fine coal, the quicker it will need refeuling
Fine Coal: 180 END / lb at the 1 Hour level; 60 END / lb at the 20 minute level.
Average Coal: 150 END / lb at the 1 Hour level; 50 END / lb at the 20 minute level
Crappy Coal: 120 END / lb at the 1 hour level; 40 END / lb at the 20 minute level.

***From here down is improvised materials, they would also come with a side effect of -1 to All skill rolls and checks made by the 'jack, due to the inificiency of the feul. this is considered an extreme side effect.

Fine, Laqured Wood (such as funiture): 120 END / lb at the 1 hour level; 40 END / lb at the 20 minute level.
Good Firewood: 105 END / lb at the 1 hour level; 35 END / lb at the 20 minute level
Crappy Firewood: 90 END / lb at the 1 Hour level; 30 END / lb at the 20 minute level
Tinder: 30 END / lb at the 1 Hour level; 10 END / lb at the 20 minute level.


Well, now that I've writen a source book I think I'll leave to let you ponder my infinite wisdom :-P

[Wolfe-Chan]

That seemed to indicate you were going for a more "pure" conversion. In anycase, I don't know much about the setting, but if your going through the trouble to convert it into hero you may as well fix some of its mechanical inconsistancies, otherwise your probably better off playing IK in D20. Alrighty then, lets get cracking. I read up as much as I can without having to buy the books so there are probably gaps in my sugestions
As I really do not like the D20 system not really into playing it as such so I want to create a Hero equivalent that I can like. I guess maybe I really should start from scratch and create my own Steam Punk type of fantasy setting but I am way lazy

Overall my first sugestion (again) would be to adopt perhaps Rune-Forging or Seal-Magic for the "Wizardry" stuff, since those systems are well suited to making magic items as part of their core mechanics. They can also be used to easilly synthesize the "Gun-Mage". War casters only really have one unique power, a Telepathy; Only to Machine Class Minds. (Warjacks all take Physical Lim: Must follow commands by Bonded Warcaster). which is fine, D20 based products are rife with pseudo-psionics anyway so few will mind "breaking-system" for that ability.
Speaking of Pseudo-Psionics: Sorcery was mentioned as being very important. thats pretty easy to handle, Sorcery could be easilly handled as a MP full of Illusion, Enchantment, and a smidgeon of divination for a "true" sorcerer, or left more open for the "Walking-Artility" of the same name represented in DnD, but would definitly be End Based. Although depending on vagrencies of IK's representation of magic, adding a Mana (MAN) based on EGO could be highly appropiate.
As for magic I do not understand why magical item making needs to be the centre of a magic system. It can certainly be an off shoot of a magic system. As for mutipowers in a 150pt game it is really hard to buy good stats & skills and still have enough points for an effective multipower. While with a VPP and extra time and a few other lims. you can create a versatile magic system that cannot be changed on a whim. but more offten then once a scene or once an adventure.

From there, Divine Magic should be handled as a VPP using the common limitations I described for Wizardry above + the "Only When Serving Gods Purposes" this handy little catch-all is quite appropiate to the IK, as long as you actually enforce it. Gods wouldn't heal non-believers, not likely to buff them either unless the Clerics prayer is really good*, and wouldn't smite believers, etc.
As for healing the only IK faith that will not heal others is Menoth as they are very this religion is the only one kind of faith. All the others can heal anyone given the need. The main difference is in the amount of healing that a Priest can do per day. After which there are some really brutal side effects of over doing it.

*As far as handleing Warjacks and Steamjacks thats not too tough. built them as you Basic Automoton with all the fixins. then Apply the Physical Lim mentioned above, as well as a Dependance: 20 Galleons of Fresh Water, every time 'jack is refeuled with Coal (or roughly 1-3 Hours (depending on model)), and Phys Lim: Boiler (stateing that it can only use END with the SFX of burned material (usually coal)). Buy its END down to zero. Then simply calculate roughly how much END an efficient model can burn through in an hour of combat. I'm assuming 4/phase and SPD 3 (which is actually probably a little high) if you don't go overboard. Based on my Calculations the "Average" Steamjack would need 3600 END over the course of an hour. Thats a bit high... for more realistic time it at 20 minutes of Combat power, or 1200 END.
Don't forget though, just about everything in IK is dependant upon Steam Boilers, so find an END level that comes closest to the proper Activation window's presented in the series, your not likely to get an exact figure from a conversion.
Have not even really given this any thoughts yet. Still working on the magic systems mostly.

[katal3]

As I really do not like the D20 system not really into playing it as such so I want to create a Hero equivalent that I can like. I guess maybe I really should start from scratch and create my own Steam Punk type of fantasy setting but I am way lazy
Thats fine I can understand that. I've got ittsues with DnD too. I'm actually working on a Steam-Punk kind of Campaign myself.

As for magic I do not understand why magical item making needs to be the centre of a magic system. It can certainly be an off shoot of a magic system. As for mutipowers in a 150pt game it is really hard to buy good stats & skills and still have enough points for an effective multipower. While with a VPP and extra time and a few other lims. you can create a versatile magic system that cannot be changed on a whim. but more offten then once a scene or once an adventure.
Err... That doesn't sound right, Multi-Powers are cheep as dirt, Variable Powers Pools on the other hand get expensive fast because you can only apply limitations to 1 third (on average) of the total cost of the pool. Given the normal set of "Magey" Limitations, Incantations, Gestures, Concentration, and maybe an Expendable Foci. getting the price down on the Multi Power can be really easy, and with that many Common Limitations characters can afford to buy new powers relativly quickly (depending on how much XP you hand out. where as a VPPs price will always be greater then 2/3s the the base cost.

Example:
As a multipower: a sorcerer could purchase a 60 (the AP Cap in many games) point pool with the Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Noisy (Aka Highly visible to Detect Magic; -1/4), and Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4). thats -1 in limitations, thus that MP has a base cost of 30. Now, lets assume the caster has a good repitour os spells, all at max AP, and all using flexible slots. thats 6 Points per (60 AP) Power, assuming they have no SFX related Limitations (not bloody likely) or additional procedural limitations (like Extra Time). Also lets say the sorcerer has 6 spells. thats 66 points total cost.
As a VPP: Assuming the same Pool level and Common Limitations, As well as an additiona -3/4 (-1/4 for Magic Only, and -1/2 for Powers Can Be Changed Only In Given Circumstance) The VPP Pool Will Cost 71 points.

Even Assuming only the bare minimum of Cost breaks the Multi-Power wins out price wise. Considering that IK is suposed to be Low-Magic (yeah right) APs as low as 45 might be appropiate, widening the price gap between MP and VPP.
I will granted you that VPPs are more versatile (which can make them worth to additional cost) but they can also slow down the game noticably, and are woefully easy to abuse unless they have an insane number of limitations (which defeats the purpose usually.)
Fundementally I love VPPs, but their generally very bad for emulating any magic "system" other then Vancian style fire and forget DnD magic. I've tried making VPP systems before and it alwasy ends up a conveluted mess.

That point aside, it makes more sence thematiclly in a low magic setting for a Sorcerer to have to put time and effort into every spell they learn. if All they have to do is buy a pool up the the AP maxima then occasionally raise it with more XP, you'll lose some of that feel. since they can do just about anything within the AP cap, it will make it more difficult to challenge your party.

As for why I sugest an Item (or more accurately a Focus) based system, Wizard-types often ended up pretty Item centric in DnD anyway since they had the Spell lists to make really good item crafters. plus the potential mechanical aspects of creating Magical Foci for their powers fits well not only with the whole intelectual study based magic of wizardry, but also fits well with the Warcaster and Gunmage concepts, both of which are hevially reliant on Magi-tech, and use it in the spellcasting (or at least they do in what I've read). I only sugested it in regards to "Wizardry", Sorcery would remain more like "Normal" magic.

As for healing the only IK faith that will not heal others is Menoth as they are very this religion is the only one kind of faith. All the others can heal anyone given the need. The main difference is in the amount of healing that a Priest can do per day. After which there are some really brutal side effects of over doing it.
I see, well that seems like more of a DnD specific thing, It was likely put in to try to Nerf clerics, and make play seem more gritty. Healing in Hero already has caps on how much the power can heal at a time, just change that from a hard cap to an "Or Very Bad Things will Happen" Clause. no additional limitation being applicable since all your really doing is replacing a hardcoded restriction for a Severe Side effect.

[Wolfe-Chan]

I see what you mean but with enough extra time it takes to long to change the VPP quickly, ie once a day. That would take away the ease of changing the VPP. Making the System more D&D like but still more versatile then a level based system.

It is not really about the steam more the marrying of magic and technology. So in a sense it is a magic heavy campaign setting in that sense. Technology and magic are not mutually exclusive.

[katal3]

aaah, I see, so your more taking bits and melding them into high fantasy that creating a true conversion, thats good too.

[Wolfe-Chan]

No the game is not really steam punk esentially more a magical setting with more technology based on Alchemy and Magic.

[katal3]

I see. that still falls into the realm of High-Fantasy (in fact thats uaually considered the highest, where magic takes the place of technology).

[BlackSword]

When thinking about the magic system for Iron Kingdoms, I am getting a bit hung up on the d20 system that was attached to the game. I know it doesn't work, but trying to think of various systems to replace it. I do like the idea of rune etching, and think that is definitaly one alternative. In converting the game to Hero, the GM has two choices, go with the higher magic setting d20, or switch it to a grittier lower magic setting. I personally am getting tired of d20 style magic (granted I play a sorceror in one d20 campaign:)), so I lean more towards the lower magic setting.

I am thinking that technology, especially the mekanical technology (that which blends gears and arcane energy) developed because while magic is present, its difficult or time consuming to use. In order to make magic more battle ready, it has to be pre-etched on plates that are used by the war-jacks. Wizards would become more focus based. Carry objects such as a staff of fire, which is a specialized focus that shapes arcane energy into fire based spells. For gun mages, get rid of spells cast in the traditional sense, but expand the number of arcane bullets a gun mage can carry, base it on ego.

When the Orgoth (I think that was the name of the previous rulers) were in charge, they kept their brutal order by using war-witches. So there are some people that can inherently use arcane magic, but those people would be rare and distrusted. The kingdoms would have developed the warjacks as a technological counter to the innate power of the war-witches. The war-witches would be more akin to D&D sorcerors. They have an innate control of arcane energies, but are limited in the number of spells they have.

For Clerics I would adapt so their magic is simplified to mostly healing, buffing and faith type spells. Battleclerics would begin to develop more 'wrath of god' type of spells. Put an active point limit on the healing power that a cleric can buy. Leave it up to the player to role-play who he heals and who he doesn't heal.

[tgrandjean]

Re: The Steam Boilers
Just personally, you might be overthinking this a bit.
Fuel charges seem to be an easier way to handle this w/ higher grade coals granting perhaps a long term minor Aid.

[katal3]

I think that could definitly work. One very workable explanation for the early development of certain kinds of tech, and their meshing with magic, is to require all Magic items and spells cost Mana (or Eldritch), this would include golems, undead, any of it. Then limit who has this "Mana" Score to just those with a Talent required for magic. now, in order to gain the tactical advantage of magical stuff kingdoms would have to either rely on Mages to power their stuff diredtly (or perhaps to recharge the "batteries" which could take a long time) or, develop an alternative. Gunpowder and then Steam Engines would be that solution. Gun-Powder allows the creation of weapons which are equilivant in killing power to the mages spells, and Steam-Engines would have developed to produce Eldritch rather then electricity, providing a method of powering magical constructions such as Golems (which would then be renames Steam/War-Jacks because they are not true golems, having no real connection to their creator, but rely on steam power and are mechanical like a jack-in-the-box), and when built into a suit of armor, such an engine could provide great strength to the wearer (through the magical equivalent of hydrolics) as well as power enhanced weaponry (aka +1 Longswords or uber Armor Piercing spears). Since most of these developments were primarially "Militeristic", and as alternatives to magic one can still impose a certain amount of the traditional tech level prevalent in most settings

As for using fuel charges, I don't know, it may look simpler, but it makes it more difficult in my oppinon, unlike END, Charges are much more difficult to share across a verity of powers, and are almost impossible to transfer around

[tgrandjean]

Re: fuel charges

Actually, what I was thinking was that a fuel charge on movement would be appropriate. Then, a physical dependency to require fuel to operate.
Power the rest with an End Reserve with REC representing 'steam/eldrick power' and requiring that fuel be present.
Heavier use could eat up time faster, but that would just be background.

[BlackSword]

I didn't spend too much time reading the warjack rules, but if I remember right even it was fairly top level. A few hours of non-intensive activity, or a few minutes of intense activity (combat). tgrandjean's description seems to reflect that generality fairly well.

I would go with a Fuel Charge to represent the non-intensive activity, and an END reserve recoverable only by refueling for the combat oriented time. If you want to be more precise, tie the Fuel Charge to the precent of END reserve and vice versa. Ie, say you have a Four hour fuel charge, two hours into a trek along a road the PCs get attacked, the warjacks END reserve is now 1/2 its normal starting. At the end of the fight, the Warjack used up 1/4 its normal END reserve, it can only walk for another hour before it needs to be refueled. I would tend to shy away from this as it begins to put a burden on the GM for more precise timekeeping. With a large END reserve the PC literally has to track END for every step the warjack takes.

[katal3]

Personally I'd prefer to use END for everything simply because its more internally consistant. Also, once you find a workable value for Coal you can do something much better then merely mimic the mechanics, you can create a system, and while said system may not match the origional IK figures, I bet you it will be a hellav'a'lot more accurate.
While it is true that the PC will have to track end for the War'Jack as it travels, this is a rather simple calculation, just find the things End-cost per turn of travel, and then multiply for time. since the things don't have a Recovery score you don't have to fret how much its gaining back. Nor would you have to worry about converting End back into charges via percentages and stuff (which would take just as long as accounting for movement loss because you still have to figure out how much it lost during combat, then convert the remaining End back into "Travel" Charges.

Oh course to achive an even higher level of realism, one could even limit how long each reserve of coal is good for (via placing continueing charges on them) thus after X amount of time that amount of end burns out, even if it hasn't been used yet. Like any realism rule though this means more paperwork and calculation.
However, Its much easier just to say the War'jacks can regulate their internal feul usage based on activity (AkA, not dropping more feul and water into the furnace until its needed, thus keeping the engine running at a lower output) and then storing the excess temporarially in an Eldritch battery.

One other important fact is that 'Jacks suck at long distance, they still need refeuling on a regular basis, and its much more effecient to use just one engine to carry the Jack, its personell, and necessary feul, then it would be to keep the Jack active during transport. Althrough they might keep one active in hostile teritory so as not to be ambushed with their big-guns in storage.

[Wolfe-Chan]

Well I have done more work on my Magic System for Iron Kingdoms.

This is what I got so far:

Iron Kingdoms Talents


5 Sorcerer (Can cast spells as a sorcerer)


Magic Systems


Arcane Magic


VPP of up to 50 points. Limitations: RSR Magic school skill ½, Concentration ½, Can only Change the pool after 1 hour of study 1½, Need bulky spell book ½. All spells must take Incantations, Gestures, Concentration, RSR Magic School Skill.


Magic School Skills


One is needed for each school of magic. All are INT based
Abjuration
Conjuration
Divination
Enchantment
Evocation
Illusion
Necromancy
Transmutation


Sorcerer Magic


Will be a VPP of no more the 50 points in the pool, Limitations will include RSR EGO based magic skill to change spell pool -½, Extra time 5 minutes to change pool -1, Concentration ½. All spells must take Incantations, Gestures, Concentration.


Divine Magic


Divine magic will be bought as a VPP that is no more the 50 point pool. Limitations on the Control cost will be OIF Holy symbol -½, After 1hour of meditation 1½, Concentration ½. All spells must take OIF Holy Symbol, Incantations, Gestures, Concentration ¼.


Now I am not sure if this will be the final but you will still be able to change your pool in game but it will take a bit of time based on what type of magic you are casting. Extra time is haved because you are only changing the pool and not the spells themselves. I am not sure about on the fly spells(Maybe for Sorcerers).

[Wolfe-Chan]

I am working on some specific skills for Iron Kindoms and was wondering it 'Jack Handling should be based on EGO or PRE?

Any ideas?

[Shadowpup]

Probably EGO, but doesn't it require some sort of magical aptitude as well?

[Wolfe-Chan]

Probably EGO, but doesn't it require some sort of magical aptitude as well?

I was sort of assuming that. Sorry about that. Thanx for the help.

[gmurie]

I'm just a teensy bit of an IK/Warmachine player (check the sig), and I've been into Champions since the first edition waaaaayyyy back in 1987.

Here's what I suggest. Do what Privateer did with Warmachine and their d20 rules. Both systems use the same gameworld, but they're not connected by any rules structure at all.

So for a Hero version just use the gameworld info from Warmachine and the IK books and create something from scratch that captures the feel of the world.

Another point. Warcasters are 20th level or more in d20 terms. These are people who could smack around a Champions superhero, leave alone a Fantasy Hero character. With the cost of all their followers and perks factored in they'd be in the 500+ points range. It'd be better to leave people of that level of power as NPCs who the players will never even meet except maybe out of combat situations.

[Killer Shrike]

Send me the books and a SASE, and Ill convert the specific IK content and send the books back.
WHOA...you CANNOT pass up such an oportunity.


Shadowpup pulled my punkcard and sent me the Warmachine book. It took me a while to get around to it due to other commitments, but I started working out the details yesterday.

Here is a sample prototype character that Im roughing out ideas on:

http://www.killershrike.com/fantasyhero/contributions/ajifu/allister%20caine.html

I have some working conversions for Warmachine stats to HERO stats.

WM STR x 3 = HERO STR
WM SPD + 1 = HERO Run

HERO DEX =
Take the lower of the characters MAT or RAT or (DEF - 10). Multiply this number by 3; this is the characters HERO DEX. Calculate OCV and DCV from this DEX. If RAT is not the lowest stat, then for each point more RAT than the lowest stat add a Ranged CSL to the character. If MAT is not the lowest stat then for each point more MAT than the lowest stat add a HtH CSL to the character. If (DEF-10) is not the lowest stat then for each point of (DEF-10) more than the lowest stat add a DCV CSL to the character.

If (DEF - 10) is less than or equal to 0, ignore it.


Captain Vitoria Haley has MAT 6 RAT 5 DEF 16. RAT 5 is the lowest, so she has a 15 DEX in HERO terms and an OCV / DCV of 5. MAT 6 - 5 = 1 so she has 1 Ranged CSL. DEF (16-10) = 6 - 5 = 1 so she has 1 DCV level.

Bodgers have MAT 2 RAT 2 DEF 15. MAT and RAT are the same, so they have a 6 DEX and 2 OCV / DCV. DEF (15-10) = 5 - 2 = 3 so they have 3 DCV levels.

Asphyxious has MAT 6 RAT 3 DEF 15. MAT 3 is the lowest so he has a 9 DEX and 3 OCV / DCV. MAT 6 - 3 = 3 HtH Levels. DEF 15 is +2 DCV Levels.



Non characters
= 8 HERO BODY

Characters
WM (Damage / 2) + 10 = HERO BODY
HERO CON = HERO BODY

WM CMD + 4 = HERO PRE
WM (CMD/2) + 6 = HERO EGO

HERO COM and INT have no parrallel so just give whatever seems appropriate.

Figure HERO PD and ED from HERO STR and HERO CON a normal. Add WM (ARM - 10) to both.

Leave HERO SPD as figured to maintain more of a structured turn Wargame feel, unless you want a higher SPEED game in which case if a character has fractional points of HERO SPD figured from HERO DEX, add points to bump HERO SPD up to the next level unless it would put the character over 4.

WM (ARM-8) = HERO Armor, with Focus (OIF Armor Suit, -1/2) applied for fleshy units.


After looking at some numbers I think the _average_ total attack (counting STR and what not in as well) should be around 9d6 N / 3d6K and the _average_ defenses should be around 15 PD/ED between armor and base PD / ED.


I had originally thought to have the Warcasters take the warjacks they control as Followers or Vehicles, but its so universal that it just amounts to a lot of pointless accounting so for now I'm proceeding with the assumption that the Warjacks are just automatons that can be commanded by a character with a "Command Warjack" Talent. The game probably doesnt get this granular, but I figure 5 points for steamjacks, 10 points for light warjacks and below, 15 points for heavy war jacks and below. This is very subject to change.




I'm still working out the details, but its a start. Hopefully I wont get pulled off onto something else and will wrap this up soon.

[Shadowpup]

Cooooooooolll...:rockon:

Next Project, send Killer Shrike Hordes Primal.

[gmurie]

@ Killer Shrike

I think you're WAY off. I don't think you can accurately derive Champions stats from WM stats. If you are going to try, I'd suggest that you work from DEF as the base dexterity, and use MAT and RAT as indications of combat levels.

DEF = DEX (or thereabouts)
Each point of MAT or RAT over three is a combat level.

Caine would be DEX:17 (I'd even jump him up to 18 or more) and have five combat levels with his guns.

Off the top of my head Caine should be:

STR:13
DEX:18
CON:15
BOD:10
INT:13
EGO:14
PRE:20
COM:20
PD:6
ED:4
SPD:5
REC:8
END:50
STN:35

He'd also have hundreds of points in powers, skills and perks. Especially in perks if you're going to pay for his warjacks as followers. His guns alone work out as a two separate RKAs with Autofire x2 each doing at least 2d6 damage.

If you must start with warjacks I'd structure their rules like this:

Give each warjack an END reserve and a limitation that it can't do much more than make a full move or half move and take a standard attack with its primary weapon. To do anything fancier it must spend END from the END reserve. Warcasters get AID to the end reserves of their bonded warjacks.

People with the Jack Marshal Skill purchase a "power" that's a skill that just gives a few points to the warjacks end reserve.

*******

My advice remains this though:

Go through the IKCG and create Hero versions of each thing you find in order through the book. Ignore the rules structure of the d20 or Warmachine systems. Focus on the art and the gameworld, and I'd seriously suggest creating a magic system from scratch rather than aping the d20 or Warmachine magic systems, which contradict each other anyway.

If you must work from a game system, work from the d20 version, because it's a role playing product and not a tabletop game system.

I can give you author rights on my website, www.battlecollege.com if you want to post your content there.

[Killer Shrike]

You are of course welcome to your opinion and are free to do whatever you want with your own free time. If you want to do what you suggest, then by all means have at it and good luck.

As far as hosting content on your site that is a very generous offer, but I have my own website and thus would hardly need such generosity. As the prototype character I posted is clearly hosted on my own website (the "killershrike" part of the URL being a dead giveaway), I can only assume that you didnt actually look at the character or else are just not very observant. Either way it certainly renders your advice less convincing.

As far as converting from d20 I have some experience on the subject as it happens, having provided the most commonly referenced 3e D&D Conversion to the HERO System. I've also converted several other game systems to the HERO System and generally feel that I have a handle on how to go about doing so, but thanks for the unsolicited advice nonetheless.

As it happens however, Shadowpup sent me a copy of Warmachine and asked me to convert it and thus I am forced to assume that he did so because he did in fact want a conversion of Warmachine to the HERO System rather than a d20 conversion to the HERO System.

[gmurie]

As it happens however, Shadowpup sent me a copy of Warmachine and asked me to convert it and thus I am forced to assume that he did so because he did in fact want a conversion of Warmachine to the HERO System rather than a d20 conversion to the HERO System.

No need to get all in a snit. I didn't intend any insult.

If you must work from Warmachine might I suggest starting with the warrior units and solos then? Start with the Long Gunners, Mechanithralls, and Winter Guard.

It is a tabletop miniatures game. Not really ideal for translation into an RPG. That's why Privateer doesn't bother keeping the rules of Warmachine in sync with their d20 Iron Kingdoms setting.

You'd also be denying a lot of the flavor from the IKCG (Iron Kingdoms Campaign Guide) which of course I know quite intimately from my work trying to cram it into PCGEN. Just for example humanity is divvied up into about a dozen or more ethnic groups. Each representable by its own package deal.

What would be very nice with Hero is that the Hero games system would be better set up for Mechanika. The rules in the Liber Mechanika rulebook that they've jammed into the d20 system are ideal for translation to Hero.

Any time someone tries to create some elaborate system of complex maths for generating objects of power into d20 Hero trumps it. Hero's just better for creating stuff like Steam Armor and Mechanikal servants.

[Killer Shrike]

Sounds like youve got a lot of ideas on how to do things to suit yourself. Im sure we'd all be interested in seeing the results of your labors if you decide to move forward with it.

[AlHazred]

With Hero, the general rule of thumb is always, "more ideas better!" :)

Feel free to share! Some of us like the flavor of several d20 settings, but prefer Hero mechanics. I'm sure I speak for the rest of us when I say we'd value your input!

[Shadowpup]

As it happens however, Shadowpup sent me a copy of Warmachine and asked me to convert it and thus I am forced to assume that he did so because he did in fact want a conversion of Warmachine to the HERO System rather than a d20 conversion to the HERO System.

I'm quite happy with the results so far too :)

[gmurie]

With Hero, the general rule of thumb is always, "more ideas better!" :)

Feel free to share! Some of us like the flavor of several d20 settings, but prefer Hero mechanics. I'm sure I speak for the rest of us when I say we'd value your input!

Well OK, if you want what I think would be a more accurate translation of the Warmachine stats here we go. Remember that the models in Warmachine are elite, and even the least warrior is at least 5th level in D&D terms. There's also a lot of abstraction in a minis game that creates blank spots that have to be filled in

SPD:4 is really slow. Like painfully slow. A move of 4" to 6" and SPD:2-3
SPD:5 is average or touch below. A move of 5" to 7" and SPD:2-3
SPD:6 is a touch above average. A move 6" to 9" and SPD:3-4
SPD:7 is super fast. A move of at least 9" and SPD:4
SPD:8 or more would be superhuman and qualify for SPD:5

STR:3 or less is weak as a kitten. STR:5
STR:4 is averagish. STR:8-10
STR:5 is slightly above average: STR:10-12
STR:6 is a bit above average: STR:13-15
STR:7 is getting quite a lot above average: STR:15-18
STR:8 is getting a bit above human norms: STR: 20-23
STR:9 is past normal humans: STR:25
STR:10 is smallest of the heavy warjacks: STR:28-30
STR:11 is just about the strongest thing in WM: STR: 35
STR:12 is the Khadoran heavies, which can pick up six ton robots and throw them some distance: STR:40

For DEX and combat values I worked up a formula that should work for most WM models and accurately reflect how agile and skilled they are:

1) Take MAT, RAT, and (DEF-8). Average the three numbers and that's the model's base CV. Give it a DEX that'll give it that CV, going high or low based on your feel for the model.

2) For each point above the CV you got that the model's MAT is give it a combat level with its melee weapons.

3) For each point above the CV you got that the model's RAT is give it a combat level with its ranged weapons.

4) For each point above the CV you got that the model's (DEF-8) is give it a generic combat level.

Example: Allistair Caine is MAT:5, RAT:8, and DEF:17. Subtracting eight from DEF:17 and averaging the three I get a CV of seven. That's DEX:20, and because he's RAT:8 give him a level with his pistols and because his DEF-8 is nine he gets two combat levels.

ARM I'm a little weak on. This is totally abstract by the standards of RPGs. Most warriors that get so much as looked at funny by a warcaster or warjack die horribly and quickly. Usually in large numbers. At a guess I'd say use half of the base ARM value as total non-resistant defense, and ARM-10 is the amount of that that should be resistant.

You'd also have to derive CON, BOD, and STUN from a combination of ARM and damage points. Though warcasters have a thing called a power field that's more like an Ablative Force Field that they can recharge, and warjacks are like automatons that lose functions when they take damage.

Models of five damage points or less are in the human norm, and few models other than warcasters or warjacks can absorb more than ten damage points which can be bought as their steam armor foci or whatever.

Focus I'd use as a rule of thumb for a MPP for the warcaster's spells with fifteen active points for each point of focus. Make each spell low enough in active points cost to allow the warcaster to cast two or three at a time.

[AlHazred]

Interesting. I'll have to borrow someone's Warmachine stuff and see if I agree. I like the more-or-less direct correlation of SPD and STR - in my experience, those are usually the easiest to convert from one setting to another.

[gmurie]

OK, some further thoughts...

ARM and damage capacity have to be munged into one calculation. Otherwise you get all sorts of oddness, since most of the warriors, even the most elite like the Stormguard are only one wound. Most of the warcasters have fifteen or more damage points, and warjacks can absorb twenty or more damage points.

One wound warriors:

ARM:11 or less is pathetic. Look at it hard and it dies.
ARM:12 is low average. Grunt troops with light armor.
ARM:13 is high average. Tougher warriors with medium armor.
ARM:14 is pretty good. Tough warriors with better than average armor.
ARM:15 is getting damn tough. Heavily armored knights in serricsteel plate.
ARM:16 is getting inhuman, like the undead Bane Knights
ARM:17 is way above average, regenerating trollkin warriors and steam armor.
ARM:18 is nearly immune to average attacks of POW:10 like rifles.
ARM:19+ is virtually untouchable by typical attacks. You have to get pounded on by warjacks, and even then there's a chance of survival...

Use the ARM value for CON, and at the higher levels feel free to add a few to several points.
For BODY subtract 4 from ARM to get BODY, and again feel free to add a few points at the higher levels as seems apropriate.
STUN should just be calculated.
For resistant defense devide ARM by two and subtract a few points at the lower end of the scale.

[Shadowpup]

SPD:4 is really slow. Like painfully slow. A move of 4" to 6" and SPD:2-3
SPD:5 is average or touch below. A move of 5" to 7" and SPD:2-3
SPD:6 is a touch above average. A move 6" to 9" and SPD:3-4
SPD:7 is super fast. A move of at least 9" and SPD:4
SPD:8 or more would be superhuman and qualify for SPD:5


I disagree that WM SPD and SPD in HERO are that closely related.

True, It looks like WM SPD would equate to HERO Running. No problem there but overall, only special cases get to perform multiple actions during their turn. This is one of the things I like about Killer Shrike's version. Just like WM, Focus is used to increase HERO SPD, giving more attacks/actions.



Though warcasters have a thing called a power field that's more like an Ablative Force Field that they can recharge,


That's just extra BOD bought OIF, Power Field. It takes damage after ARM (Defenses).


Focus I'd use as a rule of thumb for a MPP for the warcaster's spells with fifteen active points for each point of focus. Make each spell low enough in active points cost to allow the warcaster to cast two or three at a time.

You have to keep in mind that Focus/Fury have more than this use in WM.

[katal3]

The Bodger
"Bodgers are experts at the quick fix, and specialize in tearing down and rebuilding mechanika" (Iron Kingdoms Character Guide, pg 94).
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[katal3]

"Though it is the steam belchin, metal giants- Warjacks- that inspire such awe on the field of battle, the true power is held by the warcasters" (Iron Kingdoms Character Guide, pg 138).
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NOTE:This build is the absolute minimum, and does not account for the cost of the Warjacks themselves nor does it include the Warcaster Armor. As I have yet to make a decision regarding how these will be handled.
NOTE:If you have Modifier Intelligence turned on you may have problems with this Prefab. The reason being that I constructed Warcaster Focus as an END Reserve who's REC costs END to 'maintain' (effectivly they 'transfer' personal end into the Focus reserve to power abilities built into their mechanikal devices and Warjacks.)

[dragntyr]

has any further work been done on this at all?

[katal3]

I've made some small changes to the Bodger build,
25441
and did prefabs for Mage Hunters and Gunmages.
25442
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And finally, built in much the same manner as other pools. sample Spellcasting END Reserves for several base classes.
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In the equipment tab of this Prefab is also a model for Soulcages.

The idea was to buy spells individually (at a small discount most likely; considering how limited the casting pools seem to be).

[CorpCommander]

Wow, great thread. I just noticed it today. I ran IK using Hero shortly after Warmachine came out. I ran it for about a year. We did the first module of the Witchfire trilogy in that time period. It was definitely a lot of fun.

I like the discussion of conversion. However I would suggest that deriving high dexterity from DEF is probably a mistake. I would suggest that high DEF probably indicates combat skill levels with a magical or focused based special effect.

[Susano]

For those who are interested, I've been using Killer Shrike's D20 to HERO notes to convert IK creatures from the Monsternomicons to HERO.

So far I have Bridge Trolls and a generic Satyxis. I have more worked up, but don't have all the fluff text written or the character sheets finished.

Take a look here:
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationscreatures/creatures.html#RPG

[dragntyr]

Well I have Been Lerking in this forum thread for some time. I have started on a full conversion of Iron kingdoms for some time now. I have completed the races and I have started on the Classes this is taking some time though since I work almost all the time. I am basing my conversion on the IKCG (Iron Kingdoms Character Guide) and lots of help from Killer Shrikes website. So far the races are almost exactly out of the book with a few Flaws that I added from the racial descriptions in the book to help with the cost of template.

There are changes to the core classes in the IKCG Like: no ranger, no bards (they are War Bards), each of the classes have changes to the starting skill lists as well. These are just some of the changes.

Doing a conversion of the Warmachine books are deceiving and leave room for interpretation for the stats. My hope is to convert the classes and races as per the IKCG and Killer shrikes site and then to play test it. I have played D&D for Years but never GMed/Converted to Hero system before. I have only played Hero system once before for one game, so needless to say this conversion is taking me some time.

dragntyr