Strength Cost: 1 point or 2

[mayapuppies]

As I've read through the forums, one thing seems to consistently crop up and that is the belief that Strength is under-priced. It even crops up in the FH rule book.

One thing I haven't seen is whether or not there has been a solid consensus as to the solution. So I'm curious, what are your opinions on the subject and is there a way to change the cost of Strength (or any stat for that matter) in HeroDesigner?

On a related topic should the END cost for strength be on a per 10pt basis or a per 5pt basis?

Right now, I'm under the opinion that Strength should be increased to 2pts and I will be making the END cost be on a per 5pt basis. Do you think this might be a bit harsh?

As a caveat, I haven't run a Fantasy campaign with HERO system before...only Champions.

[Shike019]

Well if you are upping the point cost. If you are going by the rules of 1 end/10 pts, you've already doubled the endurance cost normally attributed to strength.

[keithcurtis]

As I've read through the forums, one thing seems to consistently crop up and that is the belief that Strength is under-priced. It even crops up in the FH rule book.

One thing I haven't seen is whether or not there has been a solid consensus as to the solution. So I'm curious, what are your opinions on the subject and is there a way to change the cost of Strength (or any stat for that matter) in HeroDesigner?
There has been and never will be a solid consensus. It is a well-argued debate in Hero circles. However, it is one of the most common house rules for heroic level gaming.
Yes, HeroDesigner will allow you to change the cost of any characteristic, skill or other ability. The more extensive the changes you want to make, the greater your comfort with programming should be. Changing the cost of STR is done with minimal research and effort, however.
On a related topic should the END cost for strength be on a per 10pt basis or a per 5pt basis?
Str at the Heroic level is already 1 END/5 points.
Right now, I'm under the opinion that Strength should be increased to 2pts and I will be making the END cost be on a per 5pt basis. Do you think this might be a bit harsh?
Not at all. It's what many GM's do (including myself)
As a caveat, I haven't run a Fantasy campaign with HERO system before...only Champions.
I wouldn't mess with the cost at the Superheroic level. In fantasy, though, virtually every method of doing damage (barring magic) stems from STR. It's vastly more useful for this genre.

Here (http://www.savageearth.net/house.html) are this and some more tweaks I've made for my own campaign.

Keith "Not afraid to Tinker" Curtis

[Outsider]

I'd definitely keep it at 1 in Supers... in FH, though, STR is a lot more important, since all of the commonly available offensive and defensive equipment requires it. Might go to 2 per for FH.

[mayapuppies]

Yes, HeroDesigner will allow you to change the cost of any characteristic, skill or other ability. The more extensive the changes you want to make, the greater your comfort with programming should be. Changing the cost of STR is done with minimal research and effort, however.
Any chance you could send me in the right direction to do this? :help: :o

[Gunrunner]

I would use a 2 point cost for 1 point of strength. Remember to reduce weapon Min ST's accordingly though. This makes for more "realistic" Strength and minimum ST levels.

[Midhir]

I've set STR at 2 points in my campaigns right after I ran my first FH campaign 15 years ago. It was just to cheap not to have 20 STR and reap the benefits when dealing with mostly mustle powered weapons.

[Old Man]

STR needs to cost 2 in FH. It really does. STR is so critical to non-magic-wielding characters, for both offense and defense, that it's still cost effective to buy STR well past the NCM.

[Rick]

I don't care either way. When I run games, I leave it at 1 for 1. That's me, everyone needs to make up their own minds. I like it as an optional rule as opposed to an official change.

[arcady]

Don't think I've ever heard of this house rule. So for me, 1 point per point. It's never presented a problem for me in play, so I've never thought about it.

[Wilfred_Death]

Any chance you could send me in the right direction to do this? :help: :o
RE: Making STR cost more.

Check out the docs, and the forum on making 'extension templates'.

Get a Text Editor.....
You will need a Template that extends Main.hdt or Heroic.hdt.
{ You will also need some spare hair to pull out, and someone to yell at, and maybe some bricks to break }
You probably want to try and extend Heroic.hdt
Clip out the Characteristics section from Main.hdt
Put it in your Template.
You'll see something like:
</MAINAPP>
<CHARACTERISTICS>
<STR DISPLAY="STR" DEFENSE="NORMAL" ... LVLCOST="1" LVLVAL="1"....... NCM="20" NCM40="15" NCM60="10" NCM10="5" NCM10NICE="10">

Play With the LVLCOST="1" (or maybe its the LVLVAL ?)
Try making it 2 or whatever. Adjust the NCM values here as well

Save your new File.
Try and Go: New Character from Template ......
See if it works.
If HeroDesigner Barfs or it doesn't work, pull some hair out and try again....
( It's not too hard just don't overwrite any of the original files )

[Markdoc]

I'm in the 2 points per camp, but I simply move the END cost for STR to the same "1 per 10 active" as everything else. That tends to give you a better range of STR in the typical party while not penalising the high STR guys too much.

cheers, Mark

[Lezentauw]

I don't like to change the cost for things. I use a house rule instead, that IMO causes a more realistic build. I ask that for every point STR a character has, that character also has to purchase a point in CON or BODY. If I do see a 20 STR, there will also be a high BODY and/or CON to go with it. Since I give out 25/50 points, 30 points for that 20 STR is just under half the points...

If you also ask them where they see their character as visually. That usually helps them put their character in correct point category. The first question I give them when I see a 20 STR, "Do you really see your character as strong as a world class weight lifter?"

[gewing]

I'd definitely keep it at 1 in Supers... in FH, though, STR is a lot more important, since all of the commonly available offensive and defensive equipment requires it. Might go to 2 per for FH.


Depending on the exact campaign, it might not be totally out of line in supers even.

Though bricks would whine.


I know I would. ;)

[gewing]

I'm in the 2 points per camp, but I simply move the END cost for STR to the same "1 per 10 active" as everything else. That tends to give you a better range of STR in the typical party while not penalising the high STR guys too much.

cheers, Mark


SOme days I get darned tired of agreeing with you point of view.

Now if only I could win a big enough lottery to start my own company and hire certain people from the boards so they would move here...

:eg:

[Black Rose]

Whenever I wonder if STR is costed to cheaply I ask myself "Would it be worth it at twice the price?" And since the answer is always "Yes" or "A bit less than this, yeah" I don't really have a problem with it. Personally, I'd like to see all the stats costed to 2/+1, but I'm not sure how you'd go about it.
STR would work out easily,
DEX I'd do by divorcing SPD, or making SPD figured as (INT/10)+(DEX/10) and finding something else to cut off
CON is only a smidge off IIRC,
BODY I've never quite gotten the reasoning for, unless it's that 1/+1 is too cheap
INT I really can't see a "legit" way to make worth 2/+1; it's got all you could reasonably put into that basket
EGO is already there, but isn't worth it, IMO; add MDef to the figureds and it would be worth 2/+1, or at least closer to
PRE needs something more, just like INT; maybe open up some sort of "force of personality" combat sphere and you could do something
COM would have to have an actual value in the first place, sadly; I could see doing something similar to PRE as far as first meetings and such, but I don't know.

Maybe I should start a new thread on this topic. Hmmm....:sneaky:

[Old Man]

Whenever I wonder if STR is costed to cheaply I ask myself "Would it be worth it at twice the price?" And since the answer is always "Yes" or "A bit less than this, yeah" I don't really have a problem with it. Personally, I'd like to see all the stats costed to 2/+1, but I'm not sure how you'd go about it.
STR would work out easily,
DEX I'd do by divorcing SPD, or making SPD figured as (INT/10)+(DEX/10) and finding something else to cut off
CON is only a smidge off IIRC,
BODY I've never quite gotten the reasoning for, unless it's that 1/+1 is too cheap
INT I really can't see a "legit" way to make worth 2/+1; it's got all you could reasonably put into that basket
EGO is already there, but isn't worth it, IMO; add MDef to the figureds and it would be worth 2/+1, or at least closer to
PRE needs something more, just like INT; maybe open up some sort of "force of personality" combat sphere and you could do something
COM would have to have an actual value in the first place, sadly; I could see doing something similar to PRE as far as first meetings and such, but I don't know.

Maybe I should start a new thread on this topic. Hmmm....:sneaky:

You should.

I've actually had the exact same idea of forcing all stats to 2/+1. My version would break out DEX into two separate abilities, "Agility" and "Coordination"; the former would matter for SPD and DCV, the latter for OCV and fine work. PRE would be rolled up into EGO; INT would be, uh, too expensive.

[Blue Jogger]

Just to be contrary to everyone else who posted.

Make STR less effective. Everyone has a 0 point Disadvantage: STR is -5 less than expected. This gives them -1" Leap, -1d6 of damage, and halves Lift and Carry. This also means that STR minimums are also harsher.

Ok, here's some examples.

Old Man has 5 STR. He can lift 60 pounds, can't jump, can't do a punch.
Young Child has an 8 STR. He can lift 80 pounds, can jump 1/2", can do 1/2d6 punch.
Average Man has a 10 STR. He can lift 110 pounds, can jump 1", can do 1d6 punch.
Adventuring Man has a 13 STR. He can lift 165 pounds, can jump 1 1/2", can do 1 1/2d6 punch.

[AliceTheOwl]

Personally, I'd say that the fact that, over 20, it DOES cost 2 pts per pt of STR makes it even out. Considering how cheaply the other party members in Josh's low-level FH game are buying spells and things, it seems mostly fair that my character spends 5 points to be more effective, while they're spending 2.

I do realize it affects more than that, but Josh started us all out REALLY low (10/25, I think). If it cost 2 points for a point of STR from the very beginning, my character concept would've been utterly useless, and none of us would've bothered with STR to begin with.

[Old Man]

Old Man has 5 STR. He can lift 60 pounds, can't jump, can't do a punch.

Well, I think I'm a little stronger than that... :D

[Old Man]

Personally, I'd say that the fact that, over 20, it DOES cost 2 pts per pt of STR makes it even out. Considering how cheaply the other party members in Josh's low-level FH game are buying spells and things, it seems mostly fair that my character spends 5 points to be more effective, while they're spending 2.

I do realize it affects more than that, but Josh started us all out REALLY low (10/25, I think). If it cost 2 points for a point of STR from the very beginning, my character concept would've been utterly useless, and none of us would've bothered with STR to begin with.

STR isn't so much of a problem at such low point totals, where every point matters. But most FH games are somewhere around 50+50 or 75+75, giving everyone enough points to put plenty of them into STR. I have a hard time thinking of a better way to spend 8 points than to go up to 18 STR.

[CUnknown]

I definitely can see an arguement that STR is worth 2, but more important to me is that DEX costs 4. You can just total up the points that DEX gives you, and it's pretty apparent that it's underpriced.

3 points of DEX costs 9, and it gives you: 1 OCV level, 1 DCV level, 0.3 speed, +3 lightning reflexes, and possibly +1 level in DEX skills as well. That's a total benefit package of what.. 19 points? Making DEX cost 4 does a lot to balance it out, imo.

I wouldn't make DEX cost 4 in normal Champions games, but in Fantasy Hero it seems especially important to me.

[swobeas]

I have just finished GMing a FH campaign with 1 for 1, but the next will definately be 2 for 1 :o
Considering END I will go along with Mardoc and charge 1 END for 10 active points or 5 points for STR.
I think this is a good way to balance the power levels of different kinds of characters keeping in mind that STR shows up that much in FH (damage, figureds, DCV-penalty from armour, leap)

[Hierax]

What if left the cost of STR at 1 but you gave STR No Figured Characteristics? Isn't that what makes STR over-powered?

[Old Man]

No, STR is overpowered in Fantasy Hero because it directly determines your attack damage and rPD. It is so cheap that even the mages typically run around at 15 STR because they can get +2 DC and 2-3 rPD for just 5 points. No figured helps, but I don't think it's enough. I'm sure someone will disagree, though.

[Hierax]

How do you get rPD for STR? and +5 STR is only +1 DC.

[Old Man]

Because in 5th ed FH, your encumbrance penalty for armor depends on STR, and when using weapons with STR Mins, you can usually go up 2DC for +5 or +6 STR.

[prestidigitator]

Whenever I wonder if STR is costed to cheaply I ask myself "Would it be worth it at twice the price?" And since the answer is always "Yes" or "A bit less than this, yeah" I don't really have a problem with it. Personally, I'd like to see all the stats costed to 2/+1, but I'm not sure how you'd go about it.
STR would work out easily,
DEX I'd do by divorcing SPD, or making SPD figured as (INT/10)+(DEX/10) and finding something else to cut off
CON is only a smidge off IIRC,
BODY I've never quite gotten the reasoning for, unless it's that 1/+1 is too cheap
INT I really can't see a "legit" way to make worth 2/+1; it's got all you could reasonably put into that basket
EGO is already there, but isn't worth it, IMO; add MDef to the figureds and it would be worth 2/+1, or at least closer to
PRE needs something more, just like INT; maybe open up some sort of "force of personality" combat sphere and you could do something
COM would have to have an actual value in the first place, sadly; I could see doing something similar to PRE as far as first meetings and such, but I don't know.

Maybe I should start a new thread on this topic. Hmmm....:sneaky:
Although I am usually against the idea of decoupling Figured Characteristics for some reason, a while back I posted the idea (somewhere in the Rules Discussion forums; no idea where other than that) of divorcing them entirely, by doing something like this (my original was probably more thorougly thought out; I'm just going on what I recall of it):
All Primary Characteristics cost 1 per point.
HTH Damage is not calculated from Str but instead starts at 2d6 and costs 5/d6 (3 for an extra 1/2d6). Str still does determing lifting capacity (and Encumberance) and, if you like this part, base Leaping.
OCV and DCV are not calculated from Dex. Instead they start at 3 each and cost 5 to increase (each!). This eliminates the necessity for DCV CSLs, which can now be bought a little cheaper as +1 DCV which is Non-Persistant (-1/4). Dive for Cover is still based on a Dex roll, as are Agility Skills.
OECV and DECV are not calculated and work exactly like OCV and DCV. Ego is still used to resist Pre Attacks, Mental Powers, Psych. Lims etc. Mental Defense no longer gains a bonus from Ego.
Figured Characteristics have their standard costs but start at the same values they would in the standard system if all Primary Characteristics have the value 10 (PD 2, ED 2, Spd 2, Rec 4, End 20, Stun 20).
All other properties of characteristics (Con for Stunning; Dex, Int, and Pre for Skills; etc.) work as normal.
EDIT: Oh, and in Heroic games HTH Damage, OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV all have NCM equal to the values they would have if their normal Primary Characteristics were 20: 4 for HTH Damage; 7 for OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV.
EDIT: Ah, and another: Instead of being based on Int, Perception starts at 11- and is bought up by the usual means (the costs under Enhanced Senses).
It has a certain appeal, and reduces any, "real-world SFX," that lead to links between things like Str and PD (also the current coupling between lifting capability and damage, which some people dislike--though I don't mind). It also eliminates the issue of selling back Figured Characteristics.

[prestidigitator]

Wow! I sure killed this thread!

:think: :sneaky:
:bmk: :idjit:
:bmk: :idjit:
:smoke:

[WhammeWhamme]

Whenever I wonder if STR is costed to cheaply I ask myself "Would it be worth it at twice the price?" And since the answer is always "Yes" or "A bit less than this, yeah" I don't really have a problem with it. Personally, I'd like to see all the stats costed to 2/+1, but I'm not sure how you'd go about it.
STR would work out easily,
DEX I'd do by divorcing SPD, or making SPD figured as (INT/10)+(DEX/10) and finding something else to cut off
CON is only a smidge off IIRC,
BODY I've never quite gotten the reasoning for, unless it's that 1/+1 is too cheap
INT I really can't see a "legit" way to make worth 2/+1; it's got all you could reasonably put into that basket
EGO is already there, but isn't worth it, IMO; add MDef to the figureds and it would be worth 2/+1, or at least closer to
PRE needs something more, just like INT; maybe open up some sort of "force of personality" combat sphere and you could do something
COM would have to have an actual value in the first place, sadly; I could see doing something similar to PRE as far as first meetings and such, but I don't know.

Maybe I should start a new thread on this topic. Hmmm....:sneaky:

STR = Just Done
DEX = decoupled
INT = Attach SPD. That's right. Instead of (1+ DEX/10), (1+INT/10).

Others = 2pts already

Rolling PRE and COM into one stat is an interesting option (perhaps making COM a figured stat of PRE, so it can be bought up and down independently?).

Actually, yes, that is my solution. COM = PRE, 1/2 pt for +1/-1. PRE = 2pts/1

Simple, elegant, done.

[Ura-Maru]

Even at 2 points per, Strength is a pretty good buy. Even without the figured and the ‘wear heavy armor’ sides, it’s so much more flexible then any other single attack power.

I mean, seriously. If you grab, it’s a limited entangle with a damage shield. If you have a rock, it’s an EB with a couple of limitations. If you have a pointy stick, it’s a KA. If you have a BIG stick, it’s an AOE attack. It can bust you out of grabs and entangles without arguing with the GM first. It’s a floor wax. It’s a dessert topping.

Plus, it’s lockpicking. :)

The only argument against upping the cost that has any real merit is the ‘But bricks can’t take Power Frameworks!’

Well, it has merit in supers games. (Well, except for the fact that a lot of bricks DO have power frameworks . . .) But in most Heroic games, no one can take power frameworks anyway, so no problems there.

---
Basing SPD on Int instead of Dex is a good idea, especially if you assume Spd is ‘Reflexes.’ The only reason I haven’t is I’m trying to get my chops back before I start messing with everything. :)

Actually, I’d change it’s name to ‘Perception’ and using it for Initiative, as well as Speed. Have Int skills work off of skill levels instead of a true stat. That’s worth one point, easy.

That would also stop Int ‘bragging rights’ wars. :)

To make it worth 2 points, do something with ranged attacks. Either acting as ‘free’ Ranged Skill Levels, a bonus for Brace and Set, or an alternate ‘OCV’ for braced attacks.

---
As Hero slowly turns into Fallout . . . Well, the parts of Fallout that D&D didn’t rip off, anyway. :)

[DreadDomain]

Whenever I wonder if STR is costed to cheaply I ask myself "Would it be worth it at twice the price?" And since the answer is always "Yes" or "A bit less than this, yeah" I don't really have a problem with it. Personally, I'd like to see all the stats costed to 2/+1, but I'm not sure how you'd go about it

Oh! one of my favorite topics. You see, if there is one thing I was disappointed with Hero 5 is the lack of change to the characteristics. I would have preferred better balanced characteristics in general as well as less breakpoints in efficiency (0, 3, 5, 8). I would also have considered making CV and skills at the same scale (either both based on char/3 or char/5). Looking in my files, I found some playing around I have done with the characteristics. My goals were :


Keep pretty much the same characteristics so I could use easily the published characters (only their cost would change)
Make all the characteristics cost 2 pts per level


I ended up with something like this :

Primary Characteristics
All would start at 10 (average human at 8), have a NCM at 20 and an absolute "realistic" maxima at 30 (no more Int up to 50). The cost for all primary characteristics is 2 points per level.


Strength
Dexterity
Constitution
Presence
Intelligence (although the name could be changed to better represent what it really means)
Ego


As you can see, Body and Comliness have disappeared from the primary. These were the two odd characteristics anyway and have moved to the secondary characteristics.

Secondary (or Figured) Characteristics

Physical Defense (1 point) : Str/5
Energy Defense (1 point) : Con/5
Mental Defense (1 point) : Ego/5
Speed (10 points) : 1+ (Dex+Int)/20
Recovery (2 points) : (Con+Ego)/5
Endurance (1 point because I hate half points) : Con+Ego
Stun (1 point) : (Str+Con+Pre+Ego)/2
Body (2 points) : 8+(Str/5)
Com (1 point because I hate half points) : 8+(Pre/5)


All have average, NCM and absolute maxima as per Hero 5. I also used formulas like (Con+Ego)/5 instead of ((Con/5)+(Ego/5)) because then having Con 12 means something when you have Ego 11. I also considered merging PD and ED to create Physical Defense at Con/5.

Just to convince myself, I tried to roughly evaluate the worth of every characteristics by asking myself how many points of benefits would every +10 in the char would bring. To my surprise, it seems like the characteristics were worth closer to 3 points per level. Dex and Ego (because of the cost of CV were the less balanced). Here goes :


Strength +10
Effect (Lift, Casual STR) : 5 points (guesstimate)
Damage +2d6 : 10 points
Roll +2 : 4 points
Jump +2: 2 points
PD +2 : 2 points
Stun +5 : 5 points
Body +2 : 4 points
Total worth : 32 points

Dexterity +10

Effect (Initiative +10) : 15 points (according to Hero 5 but I find this overpriced)
DCV +3 : 15 points
OCV +3 (No Mental -1/4) : 18 points
Roll +2 : 4 points
Skills +2 : 10 points
Speed +0,5 : 5 points
Total worth : 67 points

Constitution +10

Effect (resist Stun) :5 points (guesstimate)
Roll +2 : 4 points
Recovery +2 : 4 points
Endurance +10 : 10 points
ED +2 : 2 points
Stun +5: 5 points
Total worth : 30 points

Presence +10

Effect (Resist Pre attacks) : 3 points (guesstimate)
Presence Attack +2d6 : 10 points
Roll +2 (rarely used) : 0 point
Skills+2 : 10 points
Stun +5 : 5 points
Com +2 : 2 points
Total worth : 30 points

Intelligence +10

Effect (none) : 0 point
Roll +2 : 4 points
Skills +2 :10 points
Perception +2 : 6 points
Speed +0,5 : 5 points
Total worth : 25 points

Ego +10

Effect (Resist Pre/Men att) : 5 points (guesstimate)
Roll +2 : 4 points
ECV +3 : 15 points
MD +2 : 2 points
Recovery +2 : 4 points
Endurance +10 : 10 points
Stun +5 : 5 points
Total worth : 45 points

What do you think about all this?

[DreadDomain]

Right now, I'm under the opinion that Strength should be increased to 2pts and I will be making the END cost be on a per 5pt basis. Do you think this might be a bit harsh?

Using the characteristics as is, I also think Strength should be increased at 2 points per level in a Heroic game. I might even do it in a Superheroic game but I would be much more hesitant.