house rule for c.s.l.

[steph]

just wanna know your opinion ....for my fantasy game i got a house rule for every kind of c.s.l. (2-3-5-8) you cannot bypass your ocv give by your dex
example my character got a dex of 15 so is ocv are 5 and if he want csl with long sword he cannot have more then 5 and if after he want csl wth hthhe cannot have more of 5 csl and is long sword still at 5 if he want to increase is csl he have to increase is dex first
hope i am clear
because in french is very clear:)
stef the french canadian

[Lanith]

I'll translate, but it's clear to me.

If your starting OCV (Dex/3) is 5 you cannot have more than 5 CSL's. To learn any new CSL's your character will need to increase their starting OCV (Dex/3).

I like it! Simple, and fair. It keeps your players from spending 20 points on CSL's and having a 13 OCV with a long sword, but a 3 with everything else.

[Nevenall]

I think it's a great house rule. I've tried various versions of the same thing, but this might be the best.
What about Overall Skill Levels?

[Alibear]

I don't like it. I just means that having a high dex is even more important. Stat inflation is already rampant if not checked.

[NuSoardGraphite]

well, I can see two things coming out of this scenario:

1) Characters will have extremely high Dex. Every fighter will have a Dex of 20 so they can have 7 skill levels.

2) Characters will be quite good with a crapload of weapons, rather than just one group of weapons.

I can see players purchasing higher pt CSL's because they can afford it. Instead of buying 7 3p CSL's with Swords for 21pts., they'll buy 4 5pt CSL's for 20pts. This means they have 4 CSL's with any frikken melee weapon they manage to happen upon!. This is dangerous. I have a character that does this now, and he's pretty darned effective. Of course, he's not overpowering, and if thats your plan, it could work.

[Trencher]

It is fair and balanced but it can lead to every character becoming simmelar to the next.

[Vanguard00]

I don't know...I kinda like it. It has an "advanced skill is limited by inherent ability" to it. If you are only so dextrous, naturally agile, whatever, you can only go so far in your training.

I'll mull it over, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it.

[Alibear]

Why? What has dexterity got to do with shooting a rifle or firing a bow?

So my reflexes are a bit slow and clumbsy but I can shoot a fly bird on the wing at 200 yards. I don't see why the two need to linked. Why can't an olympic archer have 11 dex and 5 skill levels?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Why? What has dexterity got to do with shooting a rifle or firing a bow?

So my reflexes are a bit slow and clumbsy but I can shoot a fly bird on the wing at 200 yards. I don't see why the two need to linked. Why can't an olympic archer have 11 dex and 5 skill levels?

I uderstand where you are coming from and I would never use this rule. However, I also understand why people would want to use something like this considering how seemingly omnipotent high levels of CSL's are in many games.

However, even with a CSL maximum like the one is question in place, there are several ways for your character to excell in their chosen method of attack:

Buy CSL's up to the maximum (Of course)

Buy Range PSL's up to the maximum (I'm assuming the same max as CSL's)

Buy Targeting PSL's up to the max.

Assuming your DEX-11 (Base CV-4) Olympic class Archer, thats:

4 CSL's with Archery (12pts)
4 Targeting PSL's with Archery (8pts)
4 Ranged PSL's with Archery (8pts)

With the above configuration, our Archer character can "Bullseye" a target (consider the bullseye to be -8 OCV) at 32 meters with no penalty to his base OCV! At 64 meters, he'd be at a -2. (a 10 or less to hit, or 50/50 to bullseye the target. Not bad!)

So even with the limits in place, you can still make highly effective characters, you just have to think outside the box a little...

[Alibear]

I din't really want an archer character..

I just want to hear his rational for this house rule.

[Old Man]

My house rule for CSLs is that, in addition to the points cost, each level costs $10 which must be paid to the GM.

[prestidigitator]

My house rule for CSLs is that, in addition to the points cost, each level costs $10 which must be paid to the GM.
That's a GREAT idea! I'm just going to charge 10 cents per character point. Not just for CSLs. For everything.

[taxboy4]

That's a GREAT idea! I'm just going to charge 10 cents per character point. Not just for CSLs. For everything.

I know its a little off subject, but it still grots me off that to hit rolls are influenced so much by DEx, ...

[Old Man]

Well, to reiterate what I mentioned in another stat thread, I have toyed with the idea of breaking DEX out into two stats, Coordination and Agility, which each cost 2cp/pt; the former would figure into OCV and lockpicking while the latter determined DCV, SPD, and initiative. That would grot you off a little less, I think.

The other thing to try would be to ask the GM if you could buy DEX with a limitation that it only applies to OCV. Call that a -1 limitation and you effectively get +1 OCV for every 4.5 points. It's like buying a 5pt OCV level, only you get a free point of COM!

[Inu]

Why? What has dexterity got to do with shooting a rifle or firing a bow?

So my reflexes are a bit slow and clumbsy but I can shoot a fly bird on the wing at 200 yards. I don't see why the two need to linked. Why can't an olympic archer have 11 dex and 5 skill levels?
White Wolf toyed briefly with using their Perception stat for firing guns (Corax, or were-ravens, became the most popular race for firearms users at the same time, no coincidence). I must say, I think I like that idea.

Really, there should be a buncha stats governing shooting. Perception for long range, reflexes for short range... have to work stamina in to sniper shooting somehow. Most games just can't support that kind of construct, unfortunately.

[Inu]

Well, to reiterate what I mentioned in another stat thread, I have toyed with the idea of breaking DEX out into two stats, Coordination and Agility, which each cost 2cp/pt; the former would figure into OCV and lockpicking while the latter determined DCV, SPD, and initiative. That would grot you off a little less, I think.

The other thing to try would be to ask the GM if you could buy DEX with a limitation that it only applies to OCV. Call that a -1 limitation and you effectively get +1 OCV for every 4.5 points. It's like buying a 5pt OCV level, only you get a free point of COM!
The solution I was toying with was making Dex cost 1 point per point. But all it affects is skills. Speed is bought up separately, CSLs are bought up separately. Everyone has a base OCV/DCV of 3, which is varied ONLY by CSLs.

I like that idea, particularly for more realistic games, where people do vary themselves between offence and defence. In most firefights, I'd expect people to take cover (for + to DCV) and still put most of their levels into DCV, leading to VERY low chances to hit. Enter grenades and tactical movement (fire and movement, perhaps?).

[prestidigitator]

The solution I was toying with was making Dex cost 1 point per point. But all it affects is skills. Speed is bought up separately, CSLs are bought up separately. Everyone has a base OCV/DCV of 3, which is varied ONLY by CSLs.

I like that idea, particularly for more realistic games, where people do vary themselves between offence and defence. In most firefights, I'd expect people to take cover (for + to DCV) and still put most of their levels into DCV, leading to VERY low chances to hit. Enter grenades and tactical movement (fire and movement, perhaps?).
See my post over in the "Strength Cost: 1 point or 2" thread (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=833913#post833913).

[Dale A. Ward]

Why? What has dexterity got to do with shooting a rifle or firing a bow?

So my reflexes are a bit slow and clumbsy but I can shoot a fly bird on the wing at 200 yards. I don't see why the two need to linked. Why can't an olympic archer have 11 dex and 5 skill levels?

No offense, my friend... but, speaking as a hunter, if you can hit a bird on the wing at 200 yards, your reflexes are definitely NOT slow and clumsy. It's not a godly feat by any means, but slow and clumsy won't cut it.

Either that, or you have one of those nifty guns that just continuously sprays lead in the air in a cohesive stream until the bird accidentally flies into it. :D

[Old Man]

I think the point he was trying to make is that while he can hit a flying bird in the eyeball at a quarter mile, he can't do backflips or one-handed handstands, and he sucks at dodgeball. This is easier to simulate in-game using CSLs.

[Cancer]

This sort of rule forces you further down what I saw as the big problem with the old Fantasy Trip/Melee system. The only character stat that matters is DEX, no matter what else you may have. Spend two real-world hours on any fight in that system, and the guy with the highest DEX always won, every time.

Unless you have some other mechanics modifications, you're making worthless all character concepts based on anything but physical combat. If you really want no mages in your world, that's fine, but you should recognize that's what you're doing. You are compelling every character that'll see combat to buy up their DEX. For physical characters, that doesn't sound bad, because that's what they do anyway. For a character based on something else ... mentalists spring immediately to mind ... DEX becomes a really expensive ball and chain they have to sink points into in addition to the nontrivial costs of whatever powers they want to be using. We will ignore the secondary benefits that DEX gives in terms of SPD, which are also huge in their own right.

[Old Man]

You are compelling every character that'll see combat to buy up their DEX. For physical characters, that doesn't sound bad, because that's what they do anyway. For a character based on something else ... mentalists spring immediately to mind ... DEX becomes a really expensive ball and chain they have to sink points into in addition to the nontrivial costs of whatever powers they want to be using.

I see your point, but the original problem that started this thread remains--what to do about the abusability of CSLs. At minimum I would ban 2pt OCV levels outright; they're too cheap, plus I'm used to playing with hit locations and critical hits. 3pt levels are okay, in moderation, but can still be abused with sheer numbers. Other types of levels are fine.

To go into my issues with 3pt levels, I'll give you an example. Cancer is DEX 20 and is OCV 7/DCV 7, for 30 points. Alibear buys DEX 11 and has 9 3pt levels with water pistol, for OCV 8/DCV 7 on the split, which seems like a small gain compared to a loss of 9 on initiative... right?

So our brave companions wade into liquid combat with Ben Seeman. Alibear's levels are all on defense until further notice. One of Ben's targets is DCV 7, while the other is DCV 13. No idiot, Ben attacks Cancer, who goes down under the Banninator's water balloon onslaught. Seeing his opportunity, Alibear puts his levels into You Die-CV, and drills Ben with an OCV 13 called shot to the face...

In other words, the real value of CSLs is in versatility. This is an extreme example and there are lots of caveats, but taken en masse, CSLs can become quite unbalancing.

[Markdoc]

In other words, the real value of CSLs is in versatility. This is an extreme example and there are lots of caveats, but taken en masse, CSLs can become quite unbalancing.

It's true - but that's what makes them worth having. Many people complain that DEX is underpriced, but the counterweight is that that's only true if you want a character who excels in *all* DEX-related aspects (if you are playing a light fighter or a rogue type you probably do - if you are playing tank-boy you probably don't).

Levels allow a partial counter to DEX in combat - they're cheaper and more flexible, but less effective overall. In games where levels were greatly restricted, everyone ended up pretty smartly at DEX 20. High CSL characters are great in duels, for example, but lousy in massed fights, whereas high DEX characters do well in either setting.

As noted, in my last FH game had a fighter-type who could generate OCV 16 :eek: - but she rarely did, because she had learned the hard way that throwing all your levels on OCV invited some 25 point punk with 6 points spent on +3 OCV, sticking a spear through your gut...

cheers, Mark

[Fenixcrest]

As noted, in my last FH game had a fighter-type who could generate OCV 16 :eek: - but she rarely did, because she had learned the hard way that throwing all your levels on OCV invited some 25 point punk with 6 points spent on +3 OCV, sticking a spear through your gut...

cheers, Mark

Agreed. And in response to posts above about how it's easy to buy a zillion CSL's and become unbalanced... that's what the GM audit is for. I think it's best for the GM, when character creation occurs, to take a look at the characters in relation to any NPCs and/or monster-type things that he's made, and compare maxium CV between them. If they're all in the same general range, depending on the intended power levels of the NPCs, then go with it. Otherwise, suggest some other ways to sink those 8 points.

[Ura-Maru]

I hate to dogpile, but I'm afriad I have to agree with the ‘Wait, you want to make Dex EVEN BETTER!?’ crowd.

Instead of that, how about only allowing, say two levels of any CSL?

That is, you can buy 2 2 point levels, 2 3 point levels, and 2 five point levels, but you can’t just buy 6 2 point levels.

I’m not sure of the details, I haven’t crunched the numbers yet. But it seems that would cut down on the ’+5 to my OCV for 10 points!’ problem.

Plus, it makes a certain amount of sense . . . first you learn the basics, but you can only get so much better at ‘the basics’ without spending time to learn the rest of the art, too. Swordsman guy is great with a sword, good with an axe, and not bad with his bare hands.

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I’m not sure I like how 2 and 3 point skill levels interact with weapons, anyway. If you have +2 with Strike, Block, and Grab, can you use a sword for the Strike and Block maneuvers? And don’t get me started on ‘3 point knife skill levels can be used for defense if someone attacks you with a knife while you’re shooting!’ Which somehow manages to be overcomplicated and too simplistic at the same time.

This version of this post has been edited to fit your screen, and for wierd doubled-up sentences.

[Ura-Maru]

Actually, thinking about this more, I like it better. Which is something I often don’t get with my own ideas. :)

There’s sort of a nice symmetry to it. You can get up to 10 OCV by Dex alone, (with a 30 ‘max human’ bar) and up to +10 from skill. (20 OCV is too high, but that’s a separate problem altogether)

Plus, it answers the ‘So, how many skill levels does the best swordsman in the world have?’ question nicely. 56 points seems about right to be ‘Grand Master.’

And it only cost 4 more points to ‘master’ a related weapon (2 more 2 pt levels, assuming the 3 point ones stack) But that reaches the point of diminishing returns quickly, so most warrior types will have one or two weapons they’re best with.

Yeah, I think I like this.

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“It is Ape Law!!”

[prestidigitator]

And don’t get me started on ‘3 point knife skill levels can be used for defense if someone attacks you with a knife while you’re shooting!’ Which somehow manages to be overcomplicated and too simplistic at the same time.
Eh? I don't think they can. CSLs with a knife can only be applied if you are using a knife. However, CSLs with whatever your are shooting (Ranged) could normally apply if the knife is being thrown at you (Ranged) rather than being swung at you (HTH).

[prestidigitator]

I’m not sure I like how 2 and 3 point skill levels interact with weapons, anyway. If you have +2 with Strike, Block, and Grab, can you use a sword for the Strike and Block maneuvers?
Certainly. But you can't apply them if you do a Move By or a Haymaker, even if it is with your sword.

[Ura-Maru]

Eh? I don't think they can. CSLs with a knife can only be applied if you are using a knife. However, CSLs with whatever your are shooting (Ranged) could normally apply if the knife is being thrown at you (Ranged) rather than being swung at you (HTH).


The example on 5ER pg 54 seems to say you can use the knife level for defense while you’re using a gun, if you’re ‘somehow using it,’ whatever that means. It also strongly implies that the defense you get from 3 point levels only applies vs. the same weapon you took the skill in.

On page 53, it says flat out that if you want a bonus to both armed and unarmed strikes, say, you need to take a 3 point level in ‘All Strikes,’ and then contradicts this on the next page.

Like I said, both vague and over-complicated. :) I miss the old days when 3 point levels couldn’t apply to defense. (Assuming it really did. That's the way we played it anyway) Unless you took it on Dodge. Or Dive for Cover. Ok, maybe it was just as complicated then . . . but my mind was younger and more flexable.

Your explanation, (maneuver levels apply to maneuvers armed or unarmed, ‘weapon’ maneuvers apply to any maneuver with that weapon) seems as good a way to do it as any. Though it lets bricks get a pretty kickass combat suite for only 3 points each . . .

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Not to mention a 5 point level can give +1 to OECV/DECV . . . or just a +1 to DECV. The heck?

[prestidigitator]

The example on 5ER pg 54 seems to say you can use the knife level for defense while you’re using a gun, if you’re ‘somehow using it,’ whatever that means. It also strongly implies that the defense you get from 3 point levels only applies vs. the same weapon you took the skill in.

On page 53, it says flat out that if you want a bonus to both armed and unarmed strikes, say, you need to take a 3 point level in ‘All Strikes,’ and then contradicts this on the next page.
Huh. Don't have my book on me at the moment. I'll have to check that out some time. Maybe I'll do some FAQ-diving as well; there's a lot of this stuff in there IIRC. The last time I finished looking through the FAQ I thought I had a pretty good handle on exactly how specific CSLs can be applied.

Not to mention a 5 point level can give +1 to OECV/DECV . . . or just a +1 to DECV. The heck?
They can also apply to the, "damage," of mental attacks in the first case. Why buy them just for DECV? Beats me! Just if it fits the concept for some reason, I guess.

[Old Man]

The example on 5ER pg 54 seems to say you can use the knife level for defense while you’re using a gun, if you’re ‘somehow using it,’ whatever that means. It also strongly implies that the defense you get from 3 point levels only applies vs. the same weapon you took the skill in.

On page 53, it says flat out that if you want a bonus to both armed and unarmed strikes, say, you need to take a 3 point level in ‘All Strikes,’ and then contradicts this on the next page.

That's odd. I'll have to check on that over the weekend. The way I am used to playing it, if you have a 3pt level in Wet Noodle, then you can use that level for OCV or DCV as long as you have a Wet Noodle in your hand. What the other guy was using was irrelevant.

For knives I would specify thrown knives vs. wielded. I don't see a huge overlap between those two uses for knife.

[prestidigitator]

That's odd. I'll have to check on that over the weekend. The way I am used to playing it, if you have a 3pt level in Wet Noodle, then you can use that level for OCV or DCV as long as you have a Wet Noodle in your hand. What the other guy was using was irrelevant.
Yeah.
Unless the GM permits otherwise, a character can only allocate a CSL on a Phase when he uses an attack/power that CSL applies to.
...
Characters can use one CSL costing 3 or more points as a +1 DCV against the same types of attacks (HTH or Ranged) for which the CSL could increase OCV. For example, a CSL with a swordfighting martial art could increase DCV in HTH Combat (against any type of HTH attack), but not in Ranged Combat.
(Emphases mine.)

For knives I would specify thrown knives vs. wielded. I don't see a huge overlap between those two uses for knife.
Knives used in HTH combat fit under the Common Melee/Blades Broad Group. Knives used in Ranged combat fit under the Common Missile/Thrown Knives, Axes, and Darts Broad Group. 3 point CSLs normally apply to one Broad Group. However, I allow them to apply to, "Knives," which applies to both HTH and Ranged use of knives, but doesn't apply to swords or thrown axes. This type of CSL can apply to HTH DCV in a Phase only if a knife is being wielded. It can apply to Ranged DCV in a Phase only if a knife is thrown.

[Old Man]

I went and looked up the CSL rules in 1st ed FH, just on a whim. 3pt levels there were approximately the same, except that 3pt levels with weapon+shield could be used for DCV against ranged attacks (when equipped with a shield, of course).

[Lezentauw]

I hate to be Johnny come late into a discussion, but I agree with Old Man on not liking increasing the importance to Dex.

I am leaning towards a NCVM of 7 to, no matter how you get there. So if you take that 20 Dex, all of your skill levels are now going to cost you X2 to purchase from there after.

[Gunrunner]

Here's my house rule for CSL's from a previous thread:

Characters can only apply to their Combat Value a number of given CSL's equal to that CSL's cost. The only exception to this rule is 8-point CSL's. The reasoning for this is that you can only gain so much skill with one weapon or fighting style before you begin gaining skill with other weapons or fighting styles. Mastering a weapon or fighting style involves being able to apply 10 Combat Skill Levels with that particular weapon or style.

So for example, a warrior with a greatsword could add up to two 2-point CSL's (greatsword), three 3-point CSL's (swords), five 5-point CSL's (HtH combat), and any number of 8-point CSL's to his Combat Value. Even if he didn't have any 8-point CSL's he would still be considered a Master with the greatsword because he can apply 10 CSL's to his CV. If instead, he had no 2-point CSL's, but had two 8-point CSL's he would be considered a Master with all swords, since he can apply 10 CSL's to his CV with any type of sword.

A player could buy as many CSL's of any type for his character. This house rule just limits the number of CSL's he can use at one time. This is useful because it avoids the whole problem of players buying all different kinds of 3-point CSL's with different weapon groups and applying them all to DCV. This house rule is also independent of Dexterity, which also makes it better to use IMO.

I agree, however, that 3-point CSL's should not be used for DCV unless that character has the weapon in hand for which the 3-point CSL's apply. Maybe they changed that in 5th revised edition or the FAQ section, but I haven't checked.

[Old Man]

That sounds like a pretty elegant idea, although it doesn't solve one problem, which is that I detest 2pt OCV levels. Your mileage may vary.

[odinraven]

Well, to reiterate what I mentioned in another stat thread, I have toyed with the idea of breaking DEX out into two stats, Coordination and Agility, which each cost 2cp/pt; the former would figure into OCV and lockpicking while the latter determined DCV, SPD, and initiative. That would grot you off a little less, I think.

The other thing to try would be to ask the GM if you could buy DEX with a limitation that it only applies to OCV. Call that a -1 limitation and you effectively get +1 OCV for every 4.5 points. It's like buying a 5pt OCV level, only you get a free point of COM!

well i have to admit the old man has a point on dex. i've kinda had an itch to change it around. but the csl's are already essentialy bonus's to dex with limitations (like only for combat, only for hth combat ect.) and the extra half point is rounded up for simplicity. Another way to change dex would be to switch it to fine motor skills (ranged combat, lock picking) and course motor skills (melee combat, acrobatics, DCV) and possibly reflexes (spd and reaction time). this changes things around alot and makes the system more complex (MORE MATH AGGGH!! :idjit: ) but brings some real life science into it :eek:.
As far as the house rule though i think it's a great idea for heroic campains. It keeps combat levels from getting ridiculious, sort of like a normal characteristic maxima for CVs. The only problem i see (which was mentioned earlier) is that all characters will want their dex higher, making the guy who wants to be slow and easy to hit, with massive defenses (aka the brick) a much less attractive option. I usualy just set a point cap for CV's and leave it at that, but do what you like. My recomendation is to try the charge 10$ method first.... you never know:eg: .

[Old Man]

The $10 charge method is my idea, but you can license it from me for 20%. ;)

[prestidigitator]

My house rule for CSLs is that, in addition to the points cost, each level costs $10 which must be paid to the GM.
Well, you may charge $10 for each CSLs the character acquires, but I'll charge $1 each time the character applies each CSL. Care to license that approach from me for 25%? :D

[odinraven]

Well, you may charge $10 for each CSLs the character acquires, but I'll charge $1 each time the character applies each CSL. Care to license that approach from me for 25%? :D
That is pure evil..... i like it... :eg:

[Spectre]

the easier solution to this is simply to restrict the nuber of CSL's a character can buy based on that individual character. that's what I do in my games, and it has never been a problem with any player, and it's easy to maintain balance among the PC's