Are you engaged in the DEX race?

[Nucleon]

This is an offshoot of the Thor/Supes threat, that I thought was worth a thread of its own.

Do you give your characters abusive amounts of DEX?

Nucleon saw many abuses of this good, good investment. "Thors" with 27-30 DEX, Power Armors that makes you more agile than when you're naked and the likes.

There are substitutes to a caricatural DEX; Lightning Reflexes, Combat Skills levels and some skills like Acrobatics and Breakfall may be what a character have to appear agile.

In our campaigns, CSLs (and PSLs) have preseance over DEX. 6-8 levels of CSLs are common, reaching as high as 20 for the 3-pts martial art CSL. One of my players, Mr. Chin, is a normal who is the Pro From Dover in Martial Arts. He has a 20 DEX (Maximum human), SPD 4 (ditto) and 20 levels of CSLs, Lighting reflexes and Combat manoeuver. I don't remember him being touched when he didn't want to (but for Area attacks and BOECVs).

Now if he had a 40 DEX instead of 20, he would have a CV of 13, in comparison with its actual 7+20. No match.

Here is some scales from your Friendly Cosmic Nucleon;

Spiderman; Now that's agile; A DEX of 30-36 seems okay.
Beast (X-Men fame); 27-32 DEX
Black Panther; 24-27 DEX
Cap American; 21-23 DEX. And a truckload of CSLs
Thor; DEX 17-18. He has other ressources.
Iron Man; Dex 14-15, in or out of armor.
Hulk; DEX 11-12. The Green Behemoth likes to be touched; He's got an Area-affecting clap/stomp to get rid of these pesky speedsters.

What about thee, Mortals?

[Nuadha]

I won it. Hands down. One of my characters has a 33 Dex. That's his main ability. He also has several combat levels with his sword. He never misses.

[Marchwarden]

Marchwarden has a 38 DEX. Pretty much everything else I design kicks in at 23 unless I'm playing a dedicated mentalist.

Highest DEX I've ever seen was on an NPC villain/anti-hero named Solstice. He was a 450-point character (high power) whose "powers" were having a 60 STR, 60 DEX, 60 CON, flight and a wee bit of damage resistance. He was also rather young, and basically a decent guy; his Psych Lims would have been appropriate for a hero, except that "Loyal to his Friends (Common, Total)" gets problematic when your friends are a pack of criminals with a variety of mental issues and substance abuse problems.

Frustrating to the heroes, since it's obvious that the kid's not bad at heart, but is obviously in with the wrong crowd. But, as he says:

"You don't understand. They need me."

[Derek Hiemforth]

DEX is the most useful and cost-effective item you can purchase. I highly recommend buying it up as high as your character conception (and GM) will allow.

6 points of DEX costs 18 Character Points. For your 18 point investment, you get: +0.6 SPD (6 points)
+2 OCV (2 CSLs with All Combat, Can't be used for DCV (-1/2); 11 points)
+2 DCV (2 CSLs with DCV; 10 points)
+6 Lightning Reflexes with All Actions (9 points)
+1 with All Agility Skills (5 points)
41 points worth of stuff for 18 points. Not too shabby. ;)

Of course, this is just number-crunching and game mechanickhood. It shouldn't take precedence over character concept and campaign guidelines.

[Hermit]

Well, one man's abusive is another's norm and vice versa.

As for myself, I prefer to kind of balance it out, but our standard dex seems to fall from the 20 to 28 range, leaning towards the lower end mostly. Archetypes do matter, most Bricks and Mentalists tend towards the lower side, and Martial Artists and Speedsters on the upper. Again, that's only a tendency.

I think the highest we ever got for a PC was a 35 dex and that was a high powered campaign.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Hermit
Well, one man's abusive is another's norm and vice versa.

As for myself, I prefer to kind of balance it out, but our standard dex seems to fall from the 20 to 28 range, leaning towards the lower end mostly. Archetypes do matter, most Bricks and Mentalists tend towards the lower side, and Martial Artists and Speedsters on the upper. Again, that's only a tendency.

I think the highest we ever got for a PC was a 35 dex and that was a high powered campaign.

This is generally how I did it as well. Also, if the concept seemed more in line with high DEX, less CSLs thats how it was done.

We never played with any limits other than total points, and never had a problem with DEX race, because we as players (and our GM) thought it was important we each had our own schtick.

[lemming]

Haven't been involved in an actual DEX war. I've had characters from 8 Dex to 53 Dex. (The 53/12 was in a game with a 72/14 so I wouldn't call it an actuall war...)

Current games, nope. Though a couple of the characters are in an INT war. kinda odd, I've never seen three digit INT.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by lemming
Current games, nope. Though a couple of the characters are in an INT war. kinda odd, I've never seen three digit INT.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Monolith]

I always base my Marvel conversions off of the old MSH game. :)

Amazing: 11-12 base CV
Incredible: 10 base CV
Remarkable: 8-9 base CV
Excellent: 7 base CV
Good: 5-6 base CV
Typical: 3-4 base CV

[Silbeg]

In my campaign, there is a character, Impulse, who is a 53 DEX (though only 4 SPD, still haven't figured that one out).

He is, far and beyond, the most dextrous character I have seen, and has pushed a few other characters to increase their own (to the 28-33 zone).

Now, his concept is that he has trancendental reaction speeds, which explains the high DEX (and other powers as well), but he has been a most frustrating character to deal with in game. Granted, he has been intentionally gimped by his player so that he wouldn't be overly broken. He is the consumate agent-buster, with his multiple move-by attacks, but has had only mixed results otherwise.

He is also a character that tends to do more damage to himself than his opponents do to him. :p

Silbeg.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Monolith
I always base my Marvel conversions off of the old MSH game. :)

Amazing: 11-12 base CV
Incredible: 10 base CV
Remarkable: 8-9 base CV
Excellent: 7 base CV
Good: 5-6 base CV
Typical: 3-4 base CV

Good man! Good man!

There is no "abuse of Dex." There's nothing wrong with having high Dex scores until it turns into a player vs player war. That sort of thing isn't limited to Dex, either. I've seen players say "Oh gee, Bob has a 15D6 Energy Blast. Now I've got to raise my EB to 16D6 to stay ahead of him." That's a problem, regardless of what stat you're dealing with.

I've always thought that CSLs and Lightning Reflexes were meant to complement your Dex. There's no reason to waste points on Lightning Reflexes and CSLs when the only thing you're trying to do is mimic having a higher Dex. To me, it makes as much sense as vegetarians who eat tofu burgers that are supposed to taste like meat, and then take dietary supplements that give them all the vitamins that they miss by not eating meat. Ultimately, they end up saying "eating meat is wrong!" To me, that's the same argument I get from the low Dex crowd. "A high Dex is wrong!"

Pass me the steak and my 38 Dex, please.

[Fedifensor]

5th edition HERO had one big failing. The sacred cows of characteristic costs weren't touched, which means DEX (and to a lesser extent, STR) is the most cost-effective buy in the game.

Upping the cost to 4 (or even, dare I say it, 5) points per point of DEX would bring this monster under control, and encourage people to buy levels instead.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Fedifensor
5th edition HERO had one big failing. The sacred cows of characteristic costs weren't touched, which means DEX (and to a lesser extent, STR) is the most cost-effective buy in the game.

Upping the cost to 4 (or even, dare I say it, 5) points per point of DEX would bring this monster under control, and encourage people to buy levels instead.

But this assumes far too much. For one, it assumes that Dex skill levels are worth 5 points per +1. I don't think they are. It assumes that Lightning Reflexes is priced correctly. I don't think it is. It assumes that CSLs are just OCV/DCV related. They aren't. It also assumes that Dex should cost the same as the sum of its parts. It shouldn't.

Combat levels have far greater versatility than people use them for. Just because your average Champions gamer doesn't think to put his levels into damage doesn't mean that Dex is overpriced (by the way, Dex doesn't add to damage, but CSLs can--therefore, Dex isn't just a cheaper form of CSL).

Lightning Reflexes were a Steve Long invention back in Dark Champions, but it's something that every Champs player I know created on his own, before ever seeing Dark Champs. I myself created Lightning Reflexes (but I think I just called it "Increased Initiative") before running across a used copy of DC. Everyone and their dog who created LR did it by limiting Dex. The real complaint I had with the official version is that I thought it was overpriced.

Dex shouldn't cost as much as the sum of its parts. Quite simply, it's always been the case in Champions that when you limit a power to get a specific effect (like Lightning Reflexes), you err on the side of too expensive. Does Not Affect Figured Characteristics is only -1/2, despite the fact that only Dex fits that cost scheme. Every other stat (Str, Body) should be a -1 or so, and Con loses just about all of its effectiveness, so the limitation there should be even higher. But again, you err on the side of too expensive. As a result, adding together the costs of Dex's components gives you a higher cost than Dex is worth. It's like stealing a car and selling off the parts. They're worth more than the car is whole.

[Blue]

I meet with my players today to wrap up our Vampire game. Theoretically we will set up a date to gather and start the Champions campaign (and probably build characters since a few are game-slackers or just unfamiliar with the rules).

In a perfect world, they will set their DEX around 20-23, but I have allowed them to go as high as 35 as long as the character is balanced. I hope they are amenable.

In the DEX abuse column, put the one villain I made in my old campaign who had a 40 DEX. She was a "Tigra" type, and was pretty much all Dex, Speed, claws and sex appeal. She also had the campaign's highest COM. I plan to make less outrageous villains this time... at least to start with.

[Haerandir]

The higest DEX on any PC I've ever played was 33, and he was a speedster/martial artist. So, I figure that's not unreasonable. My martial artists generally clock in at 28, my bricks anywhere from 10-18 (I played a 20 DEX brick once, but he was a 'martial brick'). All of my other characters are generally in the 14-23 range.

The simple fact is that it's hard for me to resist the siren song of DEX, especially DEX 23, because Derek's right. It's incredibly efficient in terms of what it buys you. But, I think there are valid arguments for keeping DEX low as a general principle. There is nothing wrong with having a high DEX, if your concept requires it. But, whenever you play a character with a DEX of 28 or more, you risk encouraging someone else (another player, the GM, the author of the next Enemies book) to make a character with a high DEX. That person may do so out of a sense of competition, or needing to keep up with the 'new DEX standard' or simply because they think it's acceptable, without considering that it's part of your concept and may not be part of theirs. This is the 'DEX war' or 'DEX inflation' you hear about. And I find that it constrains my ability to build the characters I want to build.

The simple fact of the matter is that having a CV of 8, or 9, or 13, is not inherently advantageous. The advantage lies in having a higher CV than your opponents. If the average CV among the opponents you expect to face is 6, then a CV of 8 gives you a +2 to-hit advantage. In a CV 7 environment, you need a 9 to get the same advantage. In a CV 11 environment, you need the 13. So, if your character concept includes 'unusually high combat skill', a high DEX average forces you to invest more of your character in DEX, which in turn encourages the next guy to buy a higher DEX. If you take the trend to it's logical conclusion, you'll see a bunch of PC's running around with 342 points invested in DEX, and the remaining 8 points devoted to whatever makes their character 'special'.

Obviously, I'm exaggerating. But the underlying truth is the same: DEX inflation means fewer points to spend on your actual character concept. Personally, I'd rather devote my points to making my character interesting and unique than to making another cookie-cutter DEX 28, SPD 6 superhero. Which is not to say that there's anything wrong with a DEX 28, SPD 6 character, just that if I can get the effect I want with a DEX 23, SPD 5 character, I've saved myself 20 points to spend on something else. When I have a character concept that is difficult to build, I often find myself economizing on DEX. Not because DEX isn't good, not because it doesn't hurt to lower it, but because it is so expensive that you can often eke out a lot of 'flavor' abilities for a relatively small reduction in combat effectiveness. And I can always comfort myself by claiming that I'm doing my part to combat DEX inflation. :p

If you want my advice, base your DEX purchase on a combination of factors:

-The most efficient value for the SPD and skill roll you desire.
-The CV value that will give you the advantage you want over your expected opponents (or the disadvantage you're willing to accept).
-The lowest value that will allow you to execute your character concept.
-The highest value that you can squeeze in after you've spent your other points on everything else you want. ('Cause it really is that good.)

Another thing to consider is the possibility of buying other skills & powers to reflect your character's 'agile' or 'dextrous' concept. Now, obviously, you don't want to go overboard here. If you want high CV, high SPD, high skill rolls and a high initiative value, then DEX is what you want. However, if you only want one of those things, to differentiate your character from everyone else, or to fit your concept, then you can often get that one thing cheaper than you could by investing another 15 points in DEX. This is the one case in which buying skill levels or Lightning Reflexes is more efficient than raw DEX. And, frankly, I think it makes for a more entertaining character. I'd much rather play a DEX 18 character with an unusually high Acrobatics roll than a DEX 28 character, if I thought the DEX 18 character wouldn't embarrass himself by being unable to hit my GM's CV 9 VIPER agents. :eek:

[levi]

Originally posted by lemming
...Though a couple of the characters are in an INT war. kinda odd, I've never seen three digit INT.

My group has started a PRE war. My WWII Super-soldier guy had a 35 PRE for the longest time, then other characters started entering that PRE neighborhood (30 - 40) so I am thinking of spending my next 15 XP on PRE to bring him up to 50 and reestablish him as THE most commanding presence in our games...lol

[Force]

"The advantage lies in having a higher CV than your opponents."

You have half of the story right.

It's also the fact you usually get to act first or go 'on delay'.

Both effects COMBINED is what makes dex THE bang for the buck for basic combat skill.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Haerandir
So, if your character concept includes 'unusually high combat skill', a high DEX average forces you to invest more of your character in DEX, which in turn encourages the next guy to buy a higher DEX.

Only if his character concept is "unusually high combat skill" as well.


If you take the trend to it's logical conclusion, you'll see a bunch of PC's running around with 342 points invested in DEX, and the remaining 8 points devoted to whatever makes their character 'special'.


Nope. Eventually you reach a point where buying Dex hinders you buying other important things, like Str and Energy Blast. I've found that in a 250 point game, you only want to go up to about a 26 Dex or so, because beyond that you get diminishing returns. Each point that you spent on Dex, the other guy spent on PD (or some other important thing). It's a balance, and anyone who goes overboard on Dex isn't balanced, and thus they are weak. WEAK!!!

[Emerald Mask]

Here is some scales from your Friendly Cosmic Nucleon;

Spiderman; Now that's agile; A DEX of 30-36 seems okay.
Beast (X-Men fame); 27-32 DEX
Black Panther; 24-27 DEX
Cap American; 21-23 DEX. And a truckload of CSLs
Thor; DEX 17-18. He has other ressources.
Iron Man; Dex 14-15, in or out of armor.
Hulk; DEX 11-12. The Green Behemoth likes to be touched; He's got an Area-affecting clap/stomp to get rid of these pesky speedsters.
Excellent I for one am tired of the dex wars- players need to stick witha concept and not worry about who goes first . I started one campaign and every player wanted to start at 27 dex. So they could have an edge, slow ponderous 4 spd brick 6 spedd martial arrtist , 7 speed movement master etc.

[Catacomb]

Depending on your campaign levels Wolverin is only going to be about two points lower than Spidey, and Nightcrawler is on Pete's level as well.

[CrosshairCollie]

I've seen a Dex war, yes. High-powered 4e game (260 point characters with 18d6 max attacks:eek: ), and one 'speedster' had a 44 DEX (campaign max was 45). I put speedster in quotes because his combat move was only 10" (noncombat was another story). The war was started because, on every segment he acted (SPD 7), the GM would call out the Segment Number, and the player would say, every time,
"I get to go first, because I have a 44 Dex."

Thus prompting someone else to create a Dex 45 flier for the express purpose of saying 'Wanna bet?'. :p

As far as Wolverine goes, I'd put him a full CV behind Spider-Man, maybe two. About on par with Captain America, Dex-wise, but not as many CSLs. Despite his bluster, he's not as good as Cap in a fight. I think last time I modelled them, Spidey was a 33, Cap a 29, and Wolverine a 26 Dex.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Champsguy
But this assumes far too much. For one, it assumes that Dex skill levels are worth 5 points per +1. I don't think they are. It assumes that Lightning Reflexes is priced correctly. I don't think it is. It assumes that CSLs are just OCV/DCV related. They aren't. It also assumes that Dex should cost the same as the sum of its parts. It shouldn't.

Combat levels have far greater versatility than people use them for. Just because your average Champions gamer doesn't think to put his levels into damage doesn't mean that Dex is overpriced (by the way, Dex doesn't add to damage, but CSLs can--therefore, Dex isn't just a cheaper form of CSL).

Lightning Reflexes were a Steve Long invention back in Dark Champions, but it's something that every Champs player I know created on his own, before ever seeing Dark Champs. I myself created Lightning Reflexes (but I think I just called it "Increased Initiative") before running across a used copy of DC. Everyone and their dog who created LR did it by limiting Dex. The real complaint I had with the official version is that I thought it was overpriced.

Dex shouldn't cost as much as the sum of its parts. Quite simply, it's always been the case in Champions that when you limit a power to get a specific effect (like Lightning Reflexes), you err on the side of too expensive. Does Not Affect Figured Characteristics is only -1/2, despite the fact that only Dex fits that cost scheme. Every other stat (Str, Body) should be a -1 or so, and Con loses just about all of its effectiveness, so the limitation there should be even higher. But again, you err on the side of too expensive. As a result, adding together the costs of Dex's components gives you a higher cost than Dex is worth. It's like stealing a car and selling off the parts. They're worth more than the car is whole.

No matter how you slice it though, +6 dex gets you a lot more than 18 pts of effectiveness, maybe not 41, but definitely over 18.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Champsguy
Nope. Eventually you reach a point where buying Dex hinders you buying other important things, like Str and Energy Blast. I've found that in a 250 point game, you only want to go up to about a 26 Dex or so, because beyond that you get diminishing returns. Each point that you spent on Dex, the other guy spent on PD (or some other important thing). It's a balance, and anyone who goes overboard on Dex isn't balanced, and thus they are weak. WEAK!!!

It depends on the average dex of the campaign. Dex is about the most cost effective thing you can purchase, until you get about 3-4 CV above the campaign average. If the average dex is 26, then purchasing your dex to 35 is quite effective. The diminishing returns aspect only comes into effect after that 3-4 CV difference, since going from 15- to hit to 16- to hit doesn't add that much. Conversely, dropping the other guy's to hit from 6- to 5- doesn't add too much either. However, going from 11- to 12- adds a lot.

[Mutant for Hire]

Just remember that AoE attacks are your friend if you're losing the DEX arms race. And for GMs, the whole point to a Hunted is that the villain in question is going to start adapting powers and tactics designed to deal with characters they can't hit.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Gary
It depends on the average dex of the campaign. Dex is about the most cost effective thing you can purchase, until you get about 3-4 CV above the campaign average. If the average dex is 26, then purchasing your dex to 35 is quite effective. The diminishing returns aspect only comes into effect after that 3-4 CV difference, since going from 15- to hit to 16- to hit doesn't add that much. Conversely, dropping the other guy's to hit from 6- to 5- doesn't add too much either. However, going from 11- to 12- adds a lot. I agree. Several of the characters in my campaign have DEXs in the high teens to low 20s. We have a 29 DEX MA, a 33 DEX MA, and my own 38 DEX MA (And I don't ever expect to have her run into a higher DEX MA; by concept she is the most agile human on Earth.) A true Speedster might have a higher DEX to simulate his blinding speed and reflexes. Actually I think the DEXs in our campaign are just a little bit higher than they ought to be, but then our team isn't the new kids on the block either. We're the big leagues, the JLA/Avengers of our universe. So we should be a comfortable cut above normals and "average" characters.

[Peregrine]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
We're the big leagues, the JLA/Avengers of our universe. So we should be a comfortable cut above normals and "average" characters.

I think this may be key. The 'rule' of DEX should be 'how do the supers compare to normals?" If supers are just 'normals with a power schtick', the lower DEX scores are appropriate. If supers are 'better in most or all areas, plus a power schtick', then higher DEX scores are justified.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Peregrine
I think this may be key. The 'rule' of DEX should be 'how do the supers compare to normals?" If supers are just 'normals with a power schtick', the lower DEX scores are appropriate. If supers are 'better in most or all areas, plus a power schtick', then higher DEX scores are justified. I think it is important to periodically remind the players of how good they are compared to normals, so I throw in agents and the like on a fairly regular basis. It's much easier to feel super when you remember how puny normals really are. My tiny little 4'10" (The size of a smallish 12-year-old girl) female gymnast/martial artist superheroine Zl'f with her "superhuman" 15 STR is as physically powerful as a pro football linebacker.

In the last adventure I ran I threw the team (Along with a half square mile of the University of Montana at Butte campus) back into the Cretaceous Period so they could rub elbows with a T-Rex and velociraptors 65 million years ago. One character took out a hunting pack of 9 velociraptors in 2 Phases with a 6d6 NND Area Effect attack. He was shocked it was so easy. I told him, "Hey, they're just animals. Think of them as bipedal tigers with a big rear claw for raking." Velociraptors are dangerous to normals, not to superheroes. The T-Rex would have been a tougher fight, but the result would have been the same.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
In the last adventure I ran I threw the team (Along with a half square mile of the University of Montana at Butte campus) back into the Cretaceous Period so they could rub elbows with a T-Rex and velociraptors 65 million years ago.

Hmm.

Trebuchet, ever played any Freedom Force? :)

[Thirdbase]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
DEX is the most useful and cost-effective item you can purchase. I highly recommend buying it up as high as your character conception (and GM) will allow.

6 points of DEX costs 18 Character Points. For your 18 point investment, you get: +0.6 SPD (6 points)
+2 OCV (2 CSLs with All Combat, Can't be used for DCV (-1/2); 11 points)
+2 DCV (2 CSLs with DCV; 10 points)
+6 Lightning Reflexes with All Actions (9 points)
+1 with All Agility Skills (5 points)
41 points worth of stuff for 18 points. Not too shabby. ;)

Of course, this is just number-crunching and game mechanickhood. It shouldn't take precedence over character concept and campaign guidelines.

Derek for this post you have just lived up to your avatar. You have just been "Knighted.":D

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Thirdbase
Derek for this post you have just lived up to your avatar. You have just been "Knighted.":D Well, with one difference. Brian wouldn't have put in the bit about character conception. ;)

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
Just remember that AoE attacks are your friend if you're losing the DEX arms race. And for GMs, the whole point to a Hunted is that the villain in question is going to start adapting powers and tactics designed to deal with characters they can't hit.

Actually, if your CVs stink, then your bestest buddy is having a teammate who has entangles, flashes, martial throws, darkness, enhanced KB attacks, TK or other ways of setting up targets that you can lay into.

That, and using some teamwork.

$0.02

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Jhamin
Trebuchet, ever played any Freedom Force? :) Yes, actually I have it on my PC. But I never went past taking out Nuclear Winter and his cronies.

Why do you ask? Is there a scenario with dinosaurs?

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by BNakagawa
Actually, if your CVs stink, then your bestest buddy is having a teammate who has entangles, flashes, martial throws, darkness, enhanced KB attacks, TK or other ways of setting up targets that you can lay into.

That, and using some teamwork.

$0.02 Absolutely right. My character Zl'f, with our team's highest SPD (9) and highest CV (15) and our brick Silhouette (4 SPD, 8 CV) have both bought Teamwork 15- and together came up with several code works for combo attacks. My personal favorite is "Window," in which Silhouette Desolidifies and my character attacks through her (Usually with a Leg Sweep) to knock the opponent off his feet so Silhouette can then attack while the bad guy is prone (and at 1/2 DCV). Another of my favs is "Flyswatter," in which Silhouette swings a vehicle at a fast opponent and Zl'f hides on the undercarriage of said vehicle to attack the opponent by surprise.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Yes, actually I have it on my PC. But I never went past taking out Nuclear Winter and his cronies.

Why do you ask? Is there a scenario with dinosaurs?

Yes. Time portals, raptors, T-Rex's, etc.

What a great game!

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
DEX is the most useful and cost-effective item you can purchase. I highly recommend buying it up as high as your character conception (and GM) will allow. (...) Of course, this is just number-crunching and game mechanickhood. It shouldn't take precedence over character concept and campaign guidelines.
The last sentence is paramount. STR too is a damn good deal, as is CON. Desolidification is, too, because it is worth many, many point in defenses of all sorts. Must the Hulk get some desolidification to be more efficient? And what about PRE? for a meagre 50 pts of PRE, you will have a 0-phase attack that will give you initiative regardless of DEX, cut your opponentS CVs in two, make them loose an action or even cause them to faint whitout even getting your hands dirty.

If your goal is to hit whoever you like, CSL or AoE is the most direct line. DEX (And STR, and CON...) is like taking a trio at McDonald's. It's a better deal, exept in the case you're not interested in the french fries. If that's burgers you want...

I've got nothing against the concept of a very agile hero with astronomic DEX, but for relativity's sake, there must be a concept or else every PC will be built on the same guidelines. What's the use in making a cat-burglar or Martial Artist with a DEX 32 if the team's brick is at 26 and the mentalist, 23?

For exemple; as a GM, I do have a problem with power armors that boosts DEX and SPD. How does an armored shell makes you more agile than when you're naked?

:confused:

[CrosshairCollie]

Originally posted by Nucleon
For exemple; as a GM, I do have a problem with power armors that boosts DEX and SPD. How does an armored shell makes you more agile than when you're naked?

:confused:
Cybernetic reflex boosters?
Early warning systems?
Target trackers in the HUD?

I believe, during the Secret Wars, Iron Man made reference to his 'new radar system and in-flight dodging computers' or something similar. It's all technobabble, but so long as it sounds good ... ;)

[JmOz]

On the flip side, I LIKE limited dexes, be it an OIF or OIHID or what have you, In the comics Tony Stark can't dedge anything out of his armor, but can dodge LASERS TRAVELING AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT BY DEFINITION while in the armor, how would you represent this little bit (BTW ALOT of characters have this problem, in hero ID they seem stronger, faster, etc, even when they don't "Loose" there powers)

I also have never liked the idea of characters are humans with a power,

My games for the record base humanities potential at 1.5 NCM, so the strongest human would have Str 30, the most agile a dex 30, the fastest at 6

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie
Cybernetic reflex boosters?
Early warning systems?
Target trackers in the HUD?

Lightning reflexes, CSL's and PSLs within the OIF. Various detection devices, too. My opinion ond only that, of course.

Cybernetics are another matter, and not worth the same limitation.

Should Power Armors boost such things as CON and BODY too? Or just provide DEF?

[Pattern Ghost]

Sure.

CON: CON that doesn't affect figured only prevents being Stunned. That's easily explained with inertial dampening systems.

BODY: Increased BODY represents armor that has to be breached/damaged before the character takes BODY damage.

Since DNAFC CON is so limited and since supers characters rarely take BODY, I have absolutely no problem allowing either of these.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
CON: CON that doesn't affect figured only prevents being Stunned. That's easily explained with inertial dampening systems.OK, that's fine for physical attacks. But how do you rationalize extra CON provided by "inertial dampeners" protecting a character from a flame attack with no knockback or an Ego Attack which has no inertia to dampen?

More DEF is the proper approach. Powered Armor can easily justify PD, ED, Mental DEF, Flash DEF, Power DEF, etc. It really doesn't quite make the grade for increasing how hard it is to Stun a character after defenses are penetrated by an attack.

[Tasha]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Lightning reflexes, CSL's and PSLs within the OIF. Various detection devices, too. My opinion ond only that, of course.

Cybernetics are another matter, and not worth the same limitation.

Should Power Armors boost such things as CON and BODY too? Or just provide DEF?

IMHO powered armor should be able to effect what ever stats that the player wants it too. As far as I am concerned if a player wants to give me the ability to take away her superhuman stats for an adventure that is quite fine by me.

Con= on board medical systems that provide instant injections of medicine to keep the operator alert. You could also say that those internal dampners also keep the armor temperature at a constant level, and have the entire thing be totally insulated from electrical attacks.

BODY is from thick armor, the ability of the suit to take punishment.

Dex could be from detectors, leads and sensors that attach to the brain through the skull, or through a data jack.

Speed can also be from the same things as DEX.

In the Champions games that I played in we never had much of a problem with any stat inflation due to competition. We always knew what the acceptable ranges were. The Dexes were from 18-33 (23 being average. Speed being from 4-7 (5 being average). We always played that Bricks had lower Dex and Speed, Martial Artists and Speedsters were at the top and Energy projectors were in the middle. It all seemed to work out. We used teamwork on villains that we couldn't just hit one on one.

It wasn't until I recently started a champions game with a new group that these assumptions came into question. The players all wanted to have a huge dex and speed. Kind of frustrating as I really like to run a game that is lots of roleplaying (talking heads and character/ plotline development) punctuated with at least one combat per game. It keeps everyone happy, especially me who doesn't really like to run combats.

Tasha :)

[BNakagawa]

Justifying DEX through powered armor is trivial.

Build a robot with a DEX of 23. Make a hole in the chest and plug Stephen Hawkings in it, add a neural interface that bypasses the damaged bits of his nervous system so he gets to control a DEX 23 robot. (I'm guessing professor Hawking's DEX is maybe 1.)

$0.02

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
OK, that's fine for physical attacks. But how do you rationalize extra CON provided by "inertial dampeners" protecting a character from a flame attack with no knockback or an Ego Attack which has no inertia to dampen?

More DEF is the proper approach. Powered Armor can easily justify PD, ED, Mental DEF, Flash DEF, Power DEF, etc. It really doesn't quite make the grade for increasing how hard it is to Stun a character after defenses are penetrated by an attack.

Instant injection of amphetamines. :P

There is no one approach.

edit/addition: The point is, buying either CON or BODY through a focus, with the usual DNAFC, isn't abusive, so there's no reason to disallow it. WIth a little thought, you can think of a rationale for pretty much anything. We're talking comic book logic, here.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Tasha
Con= on board medical systems that provide instant injections of medicine to keep the operator alert. You could also say that those internal dampners also keep the armor temperature at a constant level, and have the entire thing be totally insulated from electrical attacks.

BODY is from thick armor, the ability of the suit to take punishment.

Dex could be from detectors, leads and sensors that attach to the brain through the skull, or through a data jack.


Well, presented like that (drug boosts, in truth), I would have to say "okay" as a GM as long as side effects are present, but I would rather like a boost in DEF and CSLs brought by the means of power armors.

Still, your concept do makes senses. Therefore Nucleon shall magnanimously concede the point.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Starlord
Yes. Time portals, raptors, T-Rex's, etc.

What a great game!

I'll second that. Darn that's an addictive game. :)

That reminds me, I need to check out the 'old forums' and see if I can find HERO stats for the Freedom Force Characters.

[Alien Knight]

[i]
Hulk; DEX 11-12. The Green Behemoth likes to be touched; He's got an Area-affecting clap/stomp to get rid of these pesky speedsters.
[/B]

I'm sorry but, "Hulk LIKE to be touched," is just SO wrong...

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
Instant injection of amphetamines. :P

There is no one approach.

edit/addition: The point is, buying either CON or BODY through a focus, with the usual DNAFC, isn't abusive, so there's no reason to disallow it. WIth a little thought, you can think of a rationale for pretty much anything. We're talking comic book logic, here. OK, I'll buy that. It could even lead to a rather Tony Stark-like amphetimine dependency for our armored hero (My rule is "Never miss a God-given opportunity to mess with the characters' heads.") Or better yet, how about the police trying to bust Cyberguy for his meth lab? :)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
OK, I'll buy that. It could even lead to a rather Tony Stark-like amphetimine dependency for our armored hero (My rule is "Never miss a God-given opportunity to mess with the characters' heads.") Or better yet, how about the police trying to bust Cyberguy for his meth lab? :)

Nucleon whole heartedly agrees with you, my Medieval Siege Engine friend.

[Pattern Ghost]

Of course, only whimps wear power armor. :D

[innominatus]

Originally posted by Nucleon
This is an offshoot of the Thor/Supes threat, that I thought was worth a thread of its own.

Do you give your characters abusive amounts of DEX?

Nucleon saw many abuses of this good, good investment. "Thors" with 27-30 DEX, Power Armors that makes you more agile than when you're naked and the likes.


I especially agree about the bit about powered armor characters. Realistically, if you were wearing a suit with powered servos that responded much more quickly to your brain's commands than the flesh-and-bone that's sitting inside it, every time the suit lurched into action it'd end up breaking bones, ripping tendons, and other sorts of not-fun things...

I actually once built a powered armor character that tried to find a logical solution to that problem. How it worked was, the suit injected a powerful muscle relaxant into the wearer as soon as the helmet was put on; the wearer would go limp inside the suit, and the suit's "muscles" would take over, supporting the wearer and moving his body at the speed of thought. When the wearer was ready to get out of the suit, it would inject the wearer with a stimulant to help counteract the effects of the relaxant; but the longer the relaxant had been in the wearer's bloodstream (i.e.; the longer he'd been in "Hero ID"), the longer it would take for him to recover from the effects. I simulated this as a pair of Susceptibilities that took the form of DEX Drains with long "recovery" times. One was a fairly potent (3d6) one that went off immediately, and a second one was weaker (1d6) but worked continuously for every hour the suit was worn. The kicker was that the Drains effectively had a Trigger to them (bought as a Limitation to the power rather than an Advantage because it delayed the onset of the Drain) so that the effect of the drugs didn't hit until the helmet was removed or the suit powered down, forcing the wearer to use his own muscles to move around rather than the suit's. The guy could wear the suit for an hour or so (enough to foil a bank robbery during his lunch break) and still return to work and just be a bit clumsy (have trouble typing, bumping into things, etc.); more than a couple of hours, though, and he'd end up being a quadraplegic in a wheelchair for the better part of a day while he waited for the effects of the drugs to wear off...

[Nucleon]

Now Innominatus, that is both a good way to brought up DEX via a power armor, and strong concept.

That would sell. Bring them on.

[Doug McCrae]

I'd like to see bricks with DEXs of 10 instead of 18, but they just wouldn't be effective in combat. In fact, even 18 is a bit low.

The rules fail to support the genre.

Example: Cyclops written up in Champions would no doubt have a decent DEX. 20-26, lets say. But in the group fight scenes that's not how Cyclops avoids getting shot. The Beast dodges - that's his schtick. Colossus and Wolverine soak up the damage - that's their schtick. Kitty turns intangible. But Cyclops just doesn't get shot at! It doesn't make any sort of real world sense, but that's how it works in the comics.

[Rick]

You're forgeting that Hero is ultimately a scalable system. If I write up spidey as a 26 dex, Cap as a 23 dex, Scott as an 18 dex and Bobby as a 15 dex, then the Hulk W/a 10 or 12 dex and CV's will kick all kinds of as. It's all how you in your game scale dex and speed.

[tesuji]

the lowest dex i used for a super in a full fledged supers game was 13.

She was a shrinking mentalist... so OCV came from EGo and DCV came from shrinking.

Sure, she always went last but that was OK.

She was also a villain so the relative inefficiency of the points... dex is sooooo good... did not really matter.

For my PCs, i tend to play the lower dex guys in the group. My guys are frequently 20 dex or 23 in a world of 26-33's.

I often describe it as my "force everyone else to find trouble first" power.

:-)

[Pattern Ghost]

EDIT: This was in response to Doug's post, but a couple of shorter posts went up while I was typing. =)

I dunno, Cyclops does get hit from time to time. Then, folding up like a cheap tent is his schtick. He's kind of the low level magic user/artillerist in the team. Hangs mostly in the back while the team powerhouses tie up the opposition. In more recent years, they've given him quite a bit of acrobatic and martial arts prowess as well, so they've sort of already "championized" him to a degree.

As for DEX levels, a DEX 10 brick doesn't work only if the GM doesn't let it work. Setting DEX and SPD levels is the job of the GM, not the system.

I think the low-pts X-men game in the other thread is a great concept, and perfectly suits the early X-men. These were all characters with a single, narrowly-defined, often greatly limited, power, and none of them could casually ignore threats from normal law enforcement or military types. If that's the power level you want, you set the power level that way. It's just not the default for the CU setting.

Try pre-building some of the X-characters at low-DEX/SPD and hand them out to a group.

Let's see:

Cyclops:
Dex 14, SPD 3
Xd6 EB vs. PD, OIF, Gestures, Side Effects (Uncontrolled, probably mandatory spread, and continuous if opens eyes w/out visor or ruby glasses on. Effectively blind w/out one or the other. Just wrap it up as about a -1/2 or so for the sake of argument.)
Lightning Reflexes w/Optic Blast
OCV levels w/Optic Blast.
Other stuff can be added in to whatever pt. total you're playing. Keep the STR low, he's Scott "Slim" Summers in his low-pt. incarnation. If he's pre-bulletproof spandex, then his defenses should suck.

Angel:
Dex 18, SPD 4
X" Flight, Restrainable
Enough levels with Flight to offset half the turn mode (he still has one in the early days, but he's also pretty agile)
Levels with Move by and Move through. He probably hasn't developed any real MA training early on, just doing what comes naturally as a flier.
DCV levels only when flying.
STR should set to about 15. Defenses, again, pretty mediocre.

Beast
DEX 23, SPD 5
X" of Running
Extra Limbs (prehensile feet)
Climbing skill out the wazoo.
LS: Cold if furry
STR around 30 to 35, INT 18 or more.
Fairly high PD and ED, no resistant def. unless bps era.
Toss in either HTH levels, or some MA maneuvers and some Science and Knowledge skills.

Marvel Girl
DEX 12, SPD 3
TK Multi. I don't think the early Jean could walk and chew gum at the same time, so no need to dump pts. into an EC. She should have a Force Wall as one of her TK defense options, which helps with the low defenses of most of the team.
Telepathic abilities, maybe a slot of TP and a slot of Mind Scan. Ego attack and Mental Illusions, not sure of at this point in her career.

Colossus
DEX 15, SPD 3 (he's always noted as being surprisingly agile/quick for his size)
Density Increase, 0END
Some Armor, linked to DI
Life Support: NNB, Heat, Cold, etc.
Vuln. to Electric and Magnetic attacks.
PS: Artist
Some H2H levels.

Blob
DEX 10 or 11 (if you cheese for the CV), SPD 2
KB resistance out the wazoo
Very high defenses
Entangle Dmg Shield, only vs. punches/kicks
High STR, maybe 40-45. More than Beast, less than Colossus.

Pyro
Dex 12, SPD 3
Fire multi, prob. OIF through his flame thrower
whatever defense his silly helmet is worth
some levels with his multi

Mystique
Dex 14, SPD 3
Shape shifting vs. sight and touch.
Pistol
Some levels with her pistol
spy skills

Toad
DEX 21, SPD 4 (maybe 5)
Extra STR, legs only (or HA and Leaping)
Extra Leaping
Extra limb (tongue, not sure if he had tongue in early comics)
Extra running
Some HTH levels
A couple of DCV levels

Of course, with the DEX break points, you're going to get a much more limited variety of DEXs to work with running low-DEX, so at least in regards to DEX, you'll have a lot of overlap. On the other hand, you'll also have more pts to spend on varied powers.

Low DEX can be cool. "Standard" or "Inflated" DEX can be too. I like having a bit greater range of DEXs available in a game and having the PCs be quite a notch above agents and normals, but I'd like to play in a low DEX game where those are credible threats some time.

[TheTemplar]

What we've found to be most effective is to decide who on the team is going to fill what "archetype" - for example: I'm a speedster - my speed is 7, the cap for all other characters is 5, 4 for bricks; Our main brick's STR is 70, no one else is above 40, my max, being a speedster, is 20; We've got a Bird-Man style blaster (well, he's got lots of other abilities..but in combat I'd say he's primarily a blaster) who's VERY nimble, his schtick, so he's got 30 DEX; I'm in 2nd place w/ 28; the other blaster is capped at 26, and the two bricks are capped at 21. Characteristic caps do work really well in solving problems of Stat competition between PC's and it keeps the power levels of the game more under the GM's control. I know alot of people aren't fond of GM's putting limits on things...but it REALLY does make for a more balanced (and therefore more enjoyable) gaming experience, because it gives everyone a role to fill, in addition to preventing DEX races (I've found the same races to be very common among CON and DEF, which arent' typically as regulated as STR and DEX..but can be just as dangerous to game balance.)

-T

[Pattern Ghost]

Of course, that kind of capping doesn't work for the character who's schtick is being a super nimble, super strong, high defense brick. =)

[TheTemplar]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
Of course, that kind of capping doesn't work for the character who's schtick is being a super nimble, super strong, high defense brick. =)

Hey....have you been reading my "Ultra-Top-Secret-Bring-to-table-and-substitute-for-my-normal-character-sheet-when-the-GM-is-distracted-by-food" Character sheets????? ;)


-T

[Pattern Ghost]

Hehe, no thinking of my uber-head buster Harland. Oh, he's a linguist and professor, too. Just loooves busting heads though. Think of it like The Hulk and Spider-Ma--Woman having a kid. =)

[Nucleon]

Originaly posted by Gary
Yes you missed something. You chose to accept NCM, so you're paying more points for str, con, pd, and ed. Thus you don't have the 6 extra levels that you're counting on.
Hey, that's true, Millenial Master. That would give me only an extra +2 instead of the +6 that I added up. I could just say that Cap' serum has busted these NCM limits for free and still keep them at their present, reasonable level and gain +9 CSLs...But I won't.

However, the point here being largely DEX vs CSL or "how could someone with a normal DEX can mop the floor with Supers", I'm sure you'll understand what I mean.


You're also automatically assuming a normal strike with no OCV bonus. I could easily do something like sacrifice throw with +2 OCV and both fall down, or sacrifice strike with +1 OCV and +4 DC. With my +2 spd, I can easily take advantage of you on the ground, and you can't do the same to me.
Aaah, but Sacrfice throw is no part of Generic M-Arts. We agreed that our charaters would be the same exept for the huge DEX difference and SPD did we? That and the fact that mine has NCMs.


You also cannot block my 4 action with your 3 action. It's after 3, so you would have to burn your 6 action to abort. Even if you succeed in your block, that gives me a free 6 action, which I will throw the shield at your pitiful DCV of 5 or 10, again to the head. You never get an attack back against me without getting smacked a couple of times first.
I can and I will! See "Block" on page 255;
A character who has successfully Blocked one attack can Block additional attacks made against him. He may take these additional attempts to Block in the same phase or later segments before his next phase (this does not count as aborting to block; its just an extension of the initial Block). Each additional roll is made at a cumulative -2 penality.

I will concede you this, Millenial Master; Your Cap sure is more polyvalent with this extra DEX and SPD, but there, in a fight, that version sure has a hard time putting this simple Human down, a bit like if it was Capitain America you were facing.

;)

(EDIT; this is a continuation of the discussion engaged here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=59236#post59236))

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Hey, that's true, Millenial Master. That would give me only an extra +2 instead of the +6 that I added up. I could just say that Cap' serum has busted these NCM limits for free and still keep them at their present, reasonable level and gain +9 CSLs...But I won't.

You can't, because your argument was that a NCM Cap could be as effective as one without. ;)


Originally posted by Nucleon

However, the point here being largely DEX vs CSL or "how could someone with a normal DEX can mop the floor with Supers", I'm sure you'll understand what I mean.

They could be competitive because the dynamics of a 1 on 1 fight are different than group fights. When your CAP has his monstrous OCV to block mine, his DCV is only 8-10 vs a third party. When my Cap has a monstrous OCV, his DCV is 13 vs a third party. Huge difference.


Originally posted by Nucleon

Aaah, but Sacrfice throw is no part of Generic M-Arts. We agreed that our charaters would be the same exept for the huge DEX difference and SPD did we? That and the fact that mine has NCMs.

It doesn't matter that much. I'll use defensive strike for +1 OCV then, vs your head. A low DCV of 10 will do that to you.


Originally posted by Nucleon

I can and I will! See "Block" on page 255;
A character who has successfully Blocked one attack can Block additional attacks made against him. He may take these additional attempts to Block in the same phase or later segments before his next phase (this does not count as aborting to block; its just an extension of the initial Block). Each additional roll is made at a cumulative -2 penality.


If you block on 4 using your 2 action, I'll just switch to a head shot throwing the shield on 4 instead of 6. Either you abort 6, or you eat the attack with a cruddy DCV of 8 (I don't believe you get the +2 DCV for martial block vs a range attack).


Originally posted by Nucleon

I will concede you this, Millenial Master; Your Cap sure is more polyvalent with this extra DEX and SPD, but there, in a fight, that version sure has a hard time putting this simple Human down, a bit like if it was Capitain America you were facing.

;)


I don't see it as being a hard fight if your Cap goes down within a few phases. That +2 spd is gigantic between otherwise even characters. :)

[Jeff T.]

It seems clear that Gary's version is the greatly superior one.

Another thing to point out is that Cap's general dexterity is very often displayed. His solo danger room workouts show him constantly displaying unbelievable agility. At least comparable, if not equal to, someone like Beast, Nightcrawler, and even Spidey. This type of agility is NOT portrayed well with mere CSL's or Acrobatics levels in my opinion.

I'm not saying Nucleon's version absolutely can't work, I just think a higher DEX Captain America is more in concept. This follows with established superheroic conventions and that's why it seems pointless to use NCM for superheroes to me.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
(...) your argument was that a NCM Cap could be as effective as one without.
My Cap would be even more effective with his characteristics blocked at 20. I could buy something like 24 CSL instead of 12 that way. A bit much, I agree but I'm sure you got the point. They were bought at NCM cost for the beauty of the character, and still is at par with yours. The more human he is, the better are his chances


They could be competitive because the dynamics of a 1 on 1 fight are different than group fights. When your CAP has his monstrous OCV to block mine, his DCV is only 8-10 vs a third party. When my Cap has a monstrous OCV, his DCV is 13 vs a third party. Huge difference.
Not so fast. If I block with an OCV of 26, I can Block 7 times before my OCV goes down to your DCV of 13. (Imagine If I reflected shots). Plus, versus slow, tough opponents, I can get 5 DC more with those CSL. Don't forget that.


It doesn't matter that much. I'll use defensive strike for +1 OCV then, vs your head. A low DCV of 10 will do that to you.
Nah-ha; Defensive strike are not part of Generic (or Comic-book) martial arts. You should have take less DEX and more CSLs...


If you block on 4 using your 2 action, I'll just switch to a head shot throwing the shield on 4 instead of 6. Either you abort 6, or you eat the attack with a cruddy DCV of 8 (I don't believe you get the +2 DCV for martial block vs a range attack).
Ninja Hero stated that Block and Missile Deflection are roughly the same action. You get to use the bonuses you got with block when you deflect.


I don't see it as being a hard fight if your Cap goes down within a few phases. That +2 spd is gigantic between otherwise even characters. :)
I regularly beat down opponents with higher DEX and SPD. There are so much ways to do it. My Cap is not going down. He is a better fighter, while yours is more talented.

Well, that sounded quite childish actually. It seems I cannot convince you that substitutes to DEX can be used to tailor-cut your character more to your liking, while keeping to the concept. Ah well.

Let us conclude on my side with that; The Bonuses you can get from a high DEX (or STR, or CON) are only useful to some point, where they then become costly luxury. Don't let the DEX race impede on your concept.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Well, that sounded quite childish actually. It seems I cannot convince you that substitutes to DEX can be used to tailor-cut your character more to your liking, while keeping to the concept. Ah well.

Let us conclude on my side with that; The Bonuses you can get from a high DEX (or STR, or CON) are only useful to some point, where they then become costly luxury. Don't let the DEX race impede on your concept.

-Without meaning to offend, the only thing here that I see that could be construed as 'childish' is that you naively assume nobody else has thought of the things mentioned in your first paragraph. Many other players here have up to 2 decades of experience with the system (including myself and possibly you). Most everyone 'gets' your point, but personally I think few agree with you because you have taken the use of CSLs to an unrealistic extreme. I think most see it as a balance between DEX and CSL's.

-The DEX race has never impeded on my concept or anyone I've played with. The importance stressed by concept and specific team archetype always eliminated the DEX race without having to go to extreme measures. For the record, I think use of NCM for the Superheroic genre is an extreme measure.

As with many systems, its more how the players and GM interact and work together that makes things flow effectively. When this happens you don't have system breakdowns such as a DEX race.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord
Most everyone 'gets' your point, but personally I think few agree with you because you have taken the use of CSLs to an unrealistic extreme. (...) The DEX race has never impeded on my concept or anyone I've played with. The importance stressed by concept and specific team archetype always eliminated the DEX race without having to go to extreme measures. For the record, I think use of NCM for the Superheroic genre is an extreme measure.
Why is 12-20 levels unrealistic extreme? It is surhuman training, of course, but is it a more unrealistic extreme than a 38 DEX? For Cap? (No offense Gary; I know you don't think it neither.)

NCMs (as a Disavantage)are quite okay for most power armor users and many martial artists, both in comics and actual game. Nothing extreme there, in my so humble opinion.

I got nothing versus high DEX, or STR, or COM for that matter. If one of my player has some animalist concept or something, a DEX of 27-38 might be of order. If he is a mundane power-armor operator, a 23 DEX seems, and must be, far-fetched.

No matter what's been done before.

It is a question of relativity. ;)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
My Cap would be even more effective with his characteristics blocked at 20. I could buy something like 24 CSL instead of 12 that way. A bit much, I agree but I'm sure you got the point. They were bought at NCM cost for the beauty of the character, and still is at par with yours. The more human he is, the better are his chances

Not with a speed of 4 he isn't.


Originally posted by Nucleon

Not so fast. If I block with an OCV of 26, I can Block 7 times before my OCV goes down to your DCV of 13. (Imagine If I reflected shots). Plus, versus slow, tough opponents, I can get 5 DC more with those CSL. Don't forget that.

Not when the opponents use range attacks. If you abort to a block, you also cannot use missile deflection. Your action is blown. Your DCV is 8 to all other range attackers. My DCV is 13 to those same attackers.


Originally posted by Nucleon

Nah-ha; Defensive strike are not part of Generic (or Comic-book) martial arts. You should have take less DEX and more CSLs...

Who the heck cares? A missed block is still fatal to you because its a head shot, and you still have a low DCV when I inevitably have a free phase.


Originally posted by Nucleon

Ninja Hero stated that Block and Missile Deflection are roughly the same action. You get to use the bonuses you got with block when you deflect.

From the FAQ:

Q: Is Missile Deflection just an “extension” of Block, so that you could perform Blocks and Missile Deflections in the same Segment as part of a unified defense?

A: No. Missile Deflection functions using mechanics similar to Block, but it’s not an “extension” of Block per se. Both Block and Missile Deflection are Attack Actions, and as such end a character’s Phase. Combat Skill Levels that affect Block do not automatically apply to Missile Deflection, though some may depending on how they’re defined.

The new Ultimate Martial Artist has, on page 142-43, some optional rules for Martial Block and Missile Deflection. And, of course, the GM could always rule in contradiction to the statement above if he felt that Block and Missile Deflection should be “extensions” of each other. That might be perfectly appropriate for some campaigns.

It's clear that they are 2 different attack actions, and if you abort to one, you can't use the other.


Originally posted by Nucleon
I regularly beat down opponents with higher DEX and SPD. There are so much ways to do it. My Cap is not going down. He is a better fighter, while yours is more talented.

No offense, but do you actually beat good opponents who know the rules? My experience and that of everyone I know is that if 2 characters are otherwise equal, the one with higher speed will win, unless the slow person gets really lucky.


Originally posted by Nucleon

Well, that sounded quite childish actually. It seems I cannot convince you that substitutes to DEX can be used to tailor-cut your character more to your liking, while keeping to the concept. Ah well.

Let us conclude on my side with that; The Bonuses you can get from a high DEX (or STR, or CON) are only useful to some point, where they then become costly luxury. Don't let the DEX race impede on your concept.

The trouble is that dex is a much better purchase in general than CSLs. Forcing one type of character to purchase CSLs while allowing another type to purchase dex is penalizing the first character.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Why is 12-20 levels unrealistic extreme? It is surhuman training, of course, but is it a more unrealistic extreme than a 38 DEX? For Cap? (No offense Gary; I know you don't think it neither.)


In my opinion, yes. However, you were the one who offered the 38 DEX Cap. I wouldn't use 38 Dex Cap either, but I think it FAR less unrealistic than a character with an average of 16 CSLs.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
Not with a speed of 4 he isn't (on par).
And why victory should not go to the strongest one, or the one with the best defenses, or, like in this case, to the better fighter? If you can't touch me while I dodge or block, and I touch you everytime I get to act, what good use is a SPD 6 or 12 for that matter? To spend END, recover and flee? Oh, and forgot the head shot. At -8 OCV, you will need all your small change to hit me. An area-effect is what you need right now.


Not when the opponents use range attacks. If you abort to a block, you also cannot use missile deflection. Your action is blown. Your DCV is 8 to all other range attackers. My DCV is 13 to those same attackers.
From the FAQ:
The new Ultimate Martial Artist has, on page 142-43, some optional rules for Martial Block and Missile Deflection. And, of course, the GM could always rule in contradiction to the statement above if he felt that Block and Missile Deflection should be “extensions” of each other. That might be perfectly appropriate for some campaigns.

Well, I must sound subjective here, but it seems logical to me that in this very case, it is the same action; In both cases the shield is used in a defensive manner to block/deflect incoming attacks in one single movement. If I, as a GM, would not let it to the player who attempt it, chances are the other players will sceam bloody murder.


The trouble is that dex is a much better purchase in general than CSLs. Forcing one type of character to purchase CSLs while allowing another type to purchase dex is penalizing the first character. [/B]
I do not force low or high DEX. The concept does it. As a GM I'm only there during creation to see that the concept wins. In this case, a man at the peak of human performance with lots of training and combat experience.

3-pts CSLs and Skill lvls with 3-related skills are a cheaper way to get there faster and for cheaper. Sure, a high DEX would make Cap good at lockpicking, but is that really what you wanted?

And you still did not write a word about the extra DC I can get with CSLs. At 20-25 STR, this is of some importance.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord
In my opinion, yes. However, you were the one who offered the 38 DEX Cap. I wouldn't use 38 Dex Cap either, but I think it FAR less unrealistic than a character with an average of 16 CSLs.

So you would accept a 38 DEX Cap, but a 15 CSL Cap would sound unrealistic?

An extra 15 of DEX costs 45 pts. 15 CSLs at 3 pts is 45 pts too. Why is that unrealistic? Maybe that's not me who have a problem with DEX, but rather you who have a beef with CSLs. Why super agile is accepted, while super trained isn't?

Me I accept, and use both. I guess we'll have to agree we disagree.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
And why victory should not go to the strongest one, or the one with the best defenses, or, like in this case, to the better fighter? If you can't touch me while I dodge or block, and I touch you everytime I get to act, what good use is a SPD 6 or 12 for that matter? To spend END, recover and flee? Oh, and forgot the head shot. At -8 OCV, you will need all your small change to hit me. An area-effect is what you need right now.

You have a DCV of 10 when blocking, or 8 vs a range attack. I have an OCV of 23. Head shots are trivial. You'll never get to act vs me, because you'll always have to abort actions. You'll never get a free action. As long as I keep switching between a HTH and range attack, you're toast.



Originally posted by Nucleon

Well, I must sound subjective here, but it seems logical to me that in this very case, it is the same action; In both cases the shield is used in a defensive manner to block/deflect incoming attacks in one single movement. If I, as a GM, would not let it to the player who attempt it, chances are the other players will sceam bloody murder.

IOW, the only way your NCM Cap could be competitive is if you are the GM.


Originally posted by Nucleon

I do not force low or high DEX. The concept does it. As a GM I'm only there during creation to see that the concept wins. In this case, a man at the peak of human performance with lots of training and combat experience.

This is true, concept is paramount. However, the system rewards certain concepts more than others.


Originally posted by Nucleon

3-pts CSLs and Skill lvls with 3-related skills are a cheaper way to get there faster and for cheaper. Sure, a high DEX would make Cap good at lockpicking, but is that really what you wanted?

CSL's are cheaper, but only in a narrow area. Cap really should have the 5 and 8 pt CSL's for conception since in the comics he can use them for all sorts of fighting and as DCV vs range attacks, but then that would totally make him uncompetitive with a Dex based Cap.


Originally posted by Nucleon

And you still did not write a word about the extra DC I can get with CSLs. At 20-25 STR, this is of some importance.

Minor. You'll get destroyed by my Cap if you switch those levels to anything but OCV for block, or DCV for dodge. Actually you'll get destroyed anyway, but blocking or dodging would delay the inevitable by a couple of phases.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
So you would accept a 38 DEX Cap, but a 15 CSL Cap would sound unrealistic?

An extra 15 of DEX costs 45 pts. 15 CSLs at 3 pts is 45 pts too. Why is that unrealistic? Maybe that's not me who have a problem with DEX, but rather you who have a beef with CSLs. Why super agile is accepted, while super trained isn't?

Me I accept, and use both. I guess we'll have to agree we disagree.

I personally think Cap should have 30 dex with about 3-4 general combat CSL' and 3-4 HTH CSL's. That is how he is portrayed in the comics, although the skill levels are horribly inefficient.

As a side note, 15 Dex costs only 30 pts not 45 after you factor in the savings from speed.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Gary
I personally think Cap should have 30 dex with about 3-4 general combat CSL' and 3-4 HTH CSL's. That is how he is portrayed in the comics, although the skill levels are horribly inefficient.

As a side note, 15 Dex costs only 30 pts not 45 after you factor in the savings from speed.

Agreed.

[Stargazer]

i dont know where u get ur comic book guys..but for the past 25 years that ive read them cap as never been so high.....
true cap is better then a normal human..but not that much....for example...batman is peak human...meaning max human in all stats...20 in all primary characteristics...and max in all figured char + a Huge amounts of CSLand DC
cap isnt that much higher then bats... i mean his str, dex, con, and body at maxium 25 with an incredible amount of genral CSL... same as bats but phisicaly stronger...what makes cap special is his determination...he wont quit...again same as bats...
cap doesnt have dex in the 30's (35 to 40) .... i mean come on..the guy is no where near as dexterous as spiderman.
and speed wise cap as maybe 5 of speed..never 6...wheres as bats would have 4 of spd...

i personaly think the same as nukleon as far as dex goes...if it fits the concept ..go for it... but make the concept first...
as i seem to notice here... most ppl (not all, i hate to generalize) seem to create the stats then the concept of their char. (i may be wrong, but thats the way i see it)

if stats takes over the concept, then i say scrap that char. isnt any good...unless u just want to bash some vilains head in and dont care about role-play.....

but this is just my humble opinion.....

[Black Rose]

Originally posted by Stargazer
i dont know where u get ur comic book guys..but for the past 25 years that ive read them cap as never been so high.....

IMX, Cap has been one of the better "agile-quick-talented" fighters in Marveldom for quite a while. Sure they bring up that whole "human, pure human" stuff, but it doesn't stop him from doing darn near anything he pleases if it looks cool.


true cap is better then a normal human..but not that much....for example...batman is peak human...meaning max human in all stats...20 in all primary characteristics...and max in all figured char + a Huge amounts of CSLand DC

Actually, the NCM doesn't mean you have to stop there if you're a "normal" - it just means you have to pay more. I'm not saying that Bats is a Dex 36 or anything, but I think his multi-decade career has made him, well, "more human than human." The guy is really good, Stargazer; almost scary good, if you see my meaning.


cap isnt that much higher then bats... i mean his str, dex, con, and body at maxium 25 with an incredible amount of genral CSL... same as bats but phisicaly stronger...what makes cap special is his determination...he wont quit...again same as bats...
cap doesnt have dex in the 30's (35 to 40) .... i mean come on..the guy is no where near as dexterous as spiderman.

You're right, he's not as dexterous as Spidey - at least, not natively. His obscene agility comes from training, and lots of it - same as Batman. Now, there are two ways to represent someone who has less native Dexterity than Spiderman, but is trained up to near his level; give him truckloads of Skill Levels, both Dex-based and Combat. This will represent that his Dex isn't where he gets this ability from. Or, you can simply make his Dex high enough to do it, add some Skill levels for flavour, and mention the training in his Background.


and speed wise cap as maybe 5 of speed..never 6...wheres as bats would have 4 of spd...

Whereas I would say Cap has a Speed of 5 with a bunch of Lightning Reflexes, or a 6 with less LR. And Bats would be a hair behind Cap. But he would be craftier, so he'd still kick his butt. :D


i personaly think the same as nukleon as far as dex goes...if it fits the concept ..go for it... but make the concept first...
as i seem to notice here... most ppl (not all, i hate to generalize) seem to create the stats then the concept of their char. (i may be wrong, but thats the way i see it)

I think that's due to playing this system for so long that we tend to see things through the system. When I went to see The One, with Jet "kicked all your asses" Li, my first thought when he started to run after his counterpart and was beating the cars to him was "Oooh, his Speed and Run just went up. Can't wait for the other Aids to kick in."


if stats takes over the concept, then i say scrap that char. isnt any good...unless u just want to bash some vilains head in and dont care about role-play.....

but this is just my humble opinion..... :D :D

I still think it's due to having a system that allows us to replicate damn near anything we want - you start to use it for everything.

[Pattern Ghost]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the 38 DEX figure was pretty much just plucked out of the air to prove a point about the effectiveness of DEX...I seriously doubt if anyone involved thinks Cap has a DEX that high.

I have a pretty simple way to figure Marvel DEX values:

Spiderman is X
Cap is Spiderman - 2 CV worth of DEX
Most of the really good Martial Artists are Cap -1 or -2 CV
Other physically capable types are below that
Slow bricks are below that (slow bricks seem to be more the exception than the rule in comics, esp. in DC)
Elite combat humans are probably at or below the slow brick level.

Note, Spidey probably doesn't have the same CV as Cap, most of his is probably natural, without much MA, just some skill levels from "learning the hard way." Cap would still be more effective in H2H, though he'd have it rough trying to tag a dodging Spider.

So, let's say Spidey has a 35 DEX. That's pretty darn spiffy.
That'd put Cap at 30.

Let's say Spidey is at 30.
That'd put cap at about 24.

Let's go Low DEX and put Spidey at 26
That'd put Cap around 20.

Of course, all you do by setting your Spidey Factor (SF) is determine how much above the normal schmucks with the 10 to 14 DEXes your heroes are. SF gives a good idea of how "norm-proof" characters will generally be.

I think a good level of SF is SF 32, with a Cap at around 26-27. It gives a decent range of DEX options and it lets normals be a bit of a threat, especially en masse.

[Morningstar]

Stargazer& Nucleon,

When you say things like Cap should have a 5 speed and Batman a 4 Speed, are you completely ignoring the over 100 characters that Hero Games has already provided for us? If you are simply saving that in "your universe" none of these characters would have the DEX and SPD scores they have, well fine, but The same people who created this game, and who's boards we are discussing this in, completely disagree with you! PLEASE ANSWER THIS!!! Would you but BATMAN in to the Champions universe with a 4 SPD and 20 DEX when dozens of trained normals have higher scores than this?

NIGHTHAWK of the Champions has a 25 DEX and 6 SPD and he is only a 350 point character! So Batman is slower than this guy??

Their brick IRONCLAD has a 20 DEX and 5 SPD. So the 350 point brick is faster and just as agile as BATMAN??? INSANE!

They have OBVIOUSLY established that it is ok for trained normals to have dexterity scores in the mid 20's and SPD scores to be at least 5 or 6 for this type of character, not to mention a top of the line very experienced, best of the best type like BATMAN.

As far as Captain America goes, are you ignoring that his CONCEPT and ORIGIN have ALWAYS been that he is a Strong, fast and tough as it is humanly possible to be! I commented before that those pesky guys at Champions(yes that game again) made TELIOS the perfect man fit that profile. They gave him 30 stats across the board except INT since he created the ability himself. Logically that makse me think Cap would hit these scores plus combat levels.(He is not a 350 point character!)

I think everyone understands that you think DEX scores are too high and levels are underused. But I think when most of us uses the example characters created by the same people who made the game, as a basis for our own characters that is quite valid. And then we naturally stat Iconic top of the line Marvel and DC characters high in that range, it makes sense to us!

I am sure I am not the only one that feels this way. Someone out there give me some affirmation!

[Stargazer]

Morning star..u seem to forget the main about batman..and cap to a lesser extent (but just a hair worth) is there brain...
batman doesnt rely solely on his physical attributes..he rely mostly on his brain and expeirience.... when u say nighthawk and ironclad couldnt have higer dex and spd then bats..why not?? a whole lot of super heroes are way faster and more dexterous then bats...BUT!! :) batman relies on his intellect to beat a powered hero (were not talking common thugs here i hope..:))
even tho bat is at peak human..( sorry didnt thatthe rule where u can increase ur stats pass max human was in the book always it was a house rule..im still unfamiliar with the 5th edition...) he has beat up much more powerful adversaries then himself...again relying on his extraordinary intelect...so he dont need a "super-human" dex (ive put that in quote cause not everyone sees the stats the same way...)
and of course is huge experience( CSL)

as for cap..same thing...the man is a master strategist...where brute strenght and high dex dont work his mind does the job...altho more of a brawler (in style) then batman, he uses is mind to beat a foe stronger then him...he doesnt need super high dex and spd...just good old fashion experience and tactics....

and true that both batman and captain america are worth alot more then 350...but they dont just have stats... lotsa skills perks, fringe benefits etc.....

but again this is just my humble opinion....

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Morningstar
Stargazer& Nucleon,

When you say things like Cap should have a 5 speed and Batman a 4 Speed, are you completely ignoring the over 100 characters that Hero Games has already provided for us? If you are simply saving that in "your universe" none of these characters would have the DEX and SPD scores they have, well fine, but The same people who created this game, and who's boards we are discussing this in, completely disagree with you! PLEASE ANSWER THIS!!! Would you but BATMAN in to the Champions universe with a 4 SPD and 20 DEX when dozens of trained normals have higher scores than this?

NIGHTHAWK of the Champions has a 25 DEX and 6 SPD and he is only a 350 point character! So Batman is slower than this guy??

Their brick IRONCLAD has a 20 DEX and 5 SPD. So the 350 point brick is faster and just as agile as BATMAN??? INSANE!

They have OBVIOUSLY established that it is ok for trained normals to have dexterity scores in the mid 20's and SPD scores to be at least 5 or 6 for this type of character, not to mention a top of the line very experienced, best of the best type like BATMAN.

As far as Captain America goes, are you ignoring that his CONCEPT and ORIGIN have ALWAYS been that he is a Strong, fast and tough as it is humanly possible to be! I commented before that those pesky guys at Champions(yes that game again) made TELIOS the perfect man fit that profile. They gave him 30 stats across the board except INT since he created the ability himself. Logically that makse me think Cap would hit these scores plus combat levels.(He is not a 350 point character!)

I think everyone understands that you think DEX scores are too high and levels are underused. But I think when most of us uses the example characters created by the same people who made the game, as a basis for our own characters that is quite valid. And then we naturally stat Iconic top of the line Marvel and DC characters high in that range, it makes sense to us!

I am sure I am not the only one that feels this way. Someone out there give me some affirmation!

Yes, excellent points. I have said this repeatedly in the past.

Look,

Person A wants to make a DEX 11 Spidey. Fine.

Person B wants to make a DEX 50 Juggernaut. Fine.

Person A plays one way, Person B plays another way. Fine.

That argument is neverending and, frankly, noone is REALLY wrong.

HOWEVER, in order to argue them logically and present them in an open forum as realistic, you have to have some kind of overall baseline to go from.

That baseline HAS to be the 100+ characters given us by the gamemakers. I see no other plausible solution.

I think everyone can assume, for example, that Nighthawk is a clone of Batman (for all intents and purposes). Well, more specifically, Batman-lite.

It is just not acceptable to me to make Batman himself weaker, slower, and clumsier than Nighthawk. I say again... gamewise the Superheroic genre ignores NCM for a reason.

There are no normal humans and 30 is maximum human potential in the Superheroic genre. Base your arguments off that.

[Gary]

For me, it's a matter that a 20 dex 4 spd Cap just won't be effective in game terms and a group setting.

The character with lots of cheap 3 pt CSL's is optimized in game terms to deal with one single pure martial arts opponent, or a single brick opponent with no large objects around.

In a 1 on 1 fight, you don't need both OCV and DCV. You merely need to set your levels to counter your opponents, so the cheap 3 pointers are just as good as the more expensive levels or dex.

However, you get crushed in a group fight since you need both OCV and DCV at the same time. And especially, you need DCV that can be used vs ranged attacks.

And that is the weakness with 3 pt levels, their lack of versatility and lack of ability to be used against ranged attacks. Dex is far superior.

The 4 speed Cap is also going to be spending most of any fight blocking or dodging, and thus won't actually be able to take out any opponents and won't be terribly useful to a superteam. After all, if you abort twice per turn, you only have 2 effective actions while everybody else gets their normal allotment.

[Rick]

The only way a 20 dex 4 spd Cap won't be effective is if you scale your spd and dex towards the high end. In a game where spidey is a 26 dex 5-6 spd, a 20 Dex 4spd cap Will kick all kinds of ass. He'd, W/enough levels wipe the floor W/agents and because of his high CV's and other skill levels he'd give everyone else a damn good fight as well.

[Stargazer]

i was never talking about those 3pts csl...im talking the whole combat CSL....which can be use for both ocv dcv and dc(altho not sure for the dc part...)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
I personally think Cap should have 30 dex with about 3-4 general combat CSL' and 3-4 HTH CSL's. That is how he is portrayed in the comics, although the skill levels are horribly inefficient.

As a side note, 15 Dex costs only 30 pts not 45 after you factor in the savings from speed.
If one thing Nucleon is gonna say is true, you truly are pugnacious, Milenial Master Gary. Nucleon Tips His Cosmic Crown to you.

Why not give "Cap" a 60 STR as well? Think about it; for each 5 pts of STR, you get 1 pt of PD, 1pts of REC, 2.5 pts of STUN, 1 DC of damage and 1" of leaping. That's 10.5 pts for 5. "Cap" would sure be more effective with a 60 STR! Super-serum you see.

Truth is, rarely these icons are as optimized as you generic Champion characters. That's what makes their charm.

What I want for Cap is combat effectiveness. I do not want it as a DEX by-product, I want it now.

It's like coming home with golf bag, bird cage, and a bulldozer while saying "Wow, 50% off! Look at all the money I just saved!" when all you wanted was a hammer. Not only did you didn't need all those bells and whistles but you're also out of concept if you play a Batman-type, or a guy in power suit (I don't care what's been done before; this is pure rethoric).

(Sight)A DEX augmented by 15 costs 45. Let's say you buy back the SPD and buy 3 to 5 CSLs with the currency saved, because you want to play a combat master. So you bought for max 10 CVs. Good.

Or you can buy 9 to 15 CSLs, giving you a bonus CV of max 15. +50%. You're better in combat. So you're not as agile as if you could spit in your own arse; not as much proactive, DEX-skilled or even polyvalent, but you do kick-a-boot in what you do. Plus, you can choose to do more damage at the expense of some CVs. Good versus brick like foes, who are typically lower in CV (I wont open that door). That's not munchkinism, that's not exaggeration, you are simply playing a character who is more Trained than Naturaly Agile. You control more that way. You got decisions to make. The game gets more strategic (End of sight).

In fact, high and a bit off DEX score I find useful when creating powerful ennemies to throw in versus the PCs, moreso if the later outnumbers the formers. That way they're fast, and have reasonable CVs to hit and be hit as well. Plus, they're more easy to manage, OCV/DVC speaking.

Mmmmh. The Stars did take on a curious Conjoncture. Nucleon Has Too Long Spoken, mortals. He shall find Solace in your Indulgence.

[Morningstar]

[QUOTE]Why not give "Cap" a 60 STR as well? Think about it; for each 5 pts of STR, you get 1 pt of PD, 1pts of REC, 2.5 pts of STUN, 1 DC of damage and 1" of leaping. That's 10.5 pts for 5. "Cap" would sure be more effective with a 60 STR! Super-serum you see.

BECAUSE THAT WOULDN'T BE FREAKING CAP!! You guys are going to give me a stroke! Are Starlord and I the only ones that actually use the 100+ characters created by the Champions makers as benchmarks and examples?? Some of these are such obvious take offs of existing comic characters it is very hard to ignore! Of all of these the slowest, clumsiest, least points one I have seen has a 4 SPD. Who is insane enough to plug in a Captain America that is the bottom of the barrel in combat actions per round?

Pick up CC&C and look at the back table. Of 90 characters here are the SPD's: 10=4, 47=5, 23=6, 4=7, 6=8. Of these 90 characters only 10 have less than a 20 DEX [B]You would put Cap in that bottom 10 in combat manuevers per round?

SCORPIA: little Irish girl grows up, joins the IRA, becomes a terrorist, she has a 24 DEX and 5 SPD.

WARPATH:American Indian girl grows up on a reservation shooting arrows until she is really good. 25 DEX 5 SPD

Captain America 20DEX 4 SPD????? OUT OF YOUR MINDS!

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
For me, it's a matter that a 20 dex 4 spd Cap just won't be effective in game terms and a group setting. (...) you get crushed in a group fight since you need both OCV and DCV at the same time. And especially, you need DCV that can be used vs ranged attacks.

And that is the weakness with 3 pt levels, their lack of versatility and lack of ability to be used against ranged attacks. Dex is far superior.

Blocking and Deflecting with the shield in the same action makes plenty of sense to me. Obviously not for you, eh?


The 4 speed Cap is also going to be spending most of any fight blocking or dodging, and thus won't actually be able to take out any opponents and won't be terribly useful to a superteam. After all, if you abort twice per turn, you only have 2 effective actions while everybody else gets their normal allotment.

If you aborted twice per turn in a group setting like you said, and succeed, you just saved your teamates 2 potentatially lethal attacks. A relatively low DEX of 20 also alloys you to cancel soon after you've attacked. And when you do attack, you hit, and often you hurt.

That's team effectiveness enough for me.

A 4 SPD Cap is no disgrace. Nor is Batman.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Morningstar
BECAUSE THAT WOULDN'T BE FREAKING CAP!! You guys are going to give me a stroke! Are Starlord and I the only ones that actually use the 100+ characters created by the Champions makers as benchmarks and examples?? Some of these are such obvious take offs of existing comic characters it is very hard to ignore! Of all of these the slowest, clumsiest, least points one I have seen has a 4 SPD. Who is insane enough to plug in a Captain America that is the bottom of the barrel in combat actions per round?

Captain America 20DEX 4 SPD????? OUT OF YOUR MINDS! [/B]

Why didn't I put Cap at DEX 30 and SPD 6?

BECAUSE THAT WOULDN'T BE FREAKING CAP!! You guys are going to give Nucleon a stroke!

I Really don't care about who the Champion-U characters are supposed to be. If I ever use them, I'll probably alter them if they're not of my liking, but chances are I'll make my own. There's no "Cap" in my campaign, but there are lots of dex 6-11, SPD 3-4 that my players have painfully learned to loathe and fear.

Don't you have no normals in your games?

If there was such a thing as Cap, he would start at 250 with nearly all-top NCM (STR-DEX-CON 20, SPD 4) and he would maybe upgrade to a 28 STR, 23 DEX, 25 CON and SPD 5, all paid double over NCM, for ± 450-500 pts overall over the years. There.

And you know what? He would kick arse.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick
The only way a 20 dex 4 spd Cap won't be effective is if you scale your spd and dex towards the high end. In a game where spidey is a 26 dex 5-6 spd, a 20 Dex 4spd cap Will kick all kinds of ass. He'd, W/enough levels wipe the floor W/agents and because of his high CV's and other skill levels he'd give everyone else a damn good fight as well.

You'd have to scale every single published character down if you had a 26 dex 5 spd Spidey or a 20 dex 4 spd Cap.

And then you'd have a major problem when the 14 Dex 3 Spd agents with 1-2 skill levels start hitting Cap with regularity. In the comics, Cap takes on dozens of AIM or Hydra agents with regularity. He couldn't with a 20 dex 4 spd.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
If one thing Nucleon is gonna say is true, you truly are pugnacious, Milenial Master Gary. Nucleon Tips His Cosmic Crown to you.

Why not give "Cap" a 60 STR as well? Think about it; for each 5 pts of STR, you get 1 pt of PD, 1pts of REC, 2.5 pts of STUN, 1 DC of damage and 1" of leaping. That's 10.5 pts for 5. "Cap" would sure be more effective with a 60 STR! Super-serum you see.

Truth is, rarely these icons are as optimized as you generic Champion characters. That's what makes their charm.

Conception. Since Champions has stated that 30 is absolute peak potential human max, that's what Cap should have.


Originally posted by Nucleon

What I want for Cap is combat effectiveness. I do not want it as a DEX by-product, I want it now.

It's like coming home with golf bag, bird cage, and a bulldozer while saying "Wow, 50% off! Look at all the money I just saved!" when all you wanted was a hammer. Not only did you didn't need all those bells and whistles but you're also out of concept if you play a Batman-type, or a guy in power suit (I don't care what's been done before; this is pure rethoric).

(Sight)A DEX augmented by 15 costs 45. Let's say you buy back the SPD and buy 3 to 5 CSLs with the currency saved, because you want to play a combat master. So you bought for max 10 CVs. Good.

Or you can buy 9 to 15 CSLs, giving you a bonus CV of max 15. +50%. You're better in combat. So you're not as agile as if you could spit in your own arse; not as much proactive, DEX-skilled or even polyvalent, but you do kick-a-boot in what you do. Plus, you can choose to do more damage at the expense of some CVs. Good versus brick like foes, who are typically lower in CV (I wont open that door). That's not munchkinism, that's not exaggeration, you are simply playing a character who is more Trained than Naturaly Agile. You control more that way. You got decisions to make. The game gets more strategic (End of sight).

Those 3 pt levels with MA cannot be used vs ranged attacks! Those swarms of Hydra agents would mop the floor with a Cap with only 3 pt levels. If you start buying 5 or 8 pt levels, you'll lose any cost savings at all. Dex is a far better simulator of Cap in the comics since none of those agents ever hit him. And he definitely acts more than 33% more often than one agent. A low dex Cap is not supported by the comics that I read.


Originally posted by Nucleon

In fact, high and a bit off DEX score I find useful when creating powerful ennemies to throw in versus the PCs, moreso if the later outnumbers the formers. That way they're fast, and have reasonable CVs to hit and be hit as well. Plus, they're more easy to manage, OCV/DVC speaking.

Mmmmh. The Stars did take on a curious Conjoncture. Nucleon Has Too Long Spoken, mortals. He shall find Solace in your Indulgence.

High dex scores are useful for everyone.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Blocking and Deflecting with the shield in the same action makes plenty of sense to me. Obviously not for you, eh?

We have to have a baseline for any discussion. I'm simply using the rules as published for my baseline. I'm not interested in house rules because then either of us could make anything up that we want.



Originally posted by Nucleon

If you aborted twice per turn in a group setting like you said, and succeed, you just saved your teamates 2 potentatially lethal attacks. A relatively low DEX of 20 also alloys you to cancel soon after you've attacked. And when you do attack, you hit, and often you hurt.

That's team effectiveness enough for me.

A 4 SPD Cap is no disgrace. Nor is Batman.

Doesn't fit the comics. Cap in the comics does take out opponents with regularity. He's not merely the team defensive guy.

[Rick]

There in lies the trick everyone gets scaled to the appropriate level. Yes if a score of hydra agents W/3 speeds and 13 dexs attacked him, cap could W/the proper levels kick their asses. Hey in my world cap is a 23 dex 5 spd maybe a 6 spd on the high end. Hero is a scalable system, that's one of the beauties of it, we can both write up cap differently and they'd work properly in our own worlds.

We aren't saying that cap can't be a 30 dex we're saying he doesn't have to be.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Stargazer
i was never talking about those 3pts csl...im talking the whole combat CSL....which can be use for both ocv dcv and dc(altho not sure for the dc part...)

8 pt skill levels are inefficient, even if they fit Cap's conception. An example of how the rules penalize certain conceptions.

[Rick]

Oh yeah as far as the hero published characters go...they don't define how I write up my games, as I believe is obvious.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick
There in lies the trick everyone gets scaled to the appropriate level. Yes if a score of hydra agents W/3 speeds and 13 dexs attacked him, cap could W/the proper levels kick their asses. Hey in my world cap is a 23 dex 5 spd maybe a 6 spd on the high end. Hero is a scalable system, that's one of the beauties of it, we can both write up cap differently and they'd work properly in our own worlds.

We aren't saying that cap can't be a 30 dex we're saying he doesn't have to be.

Sure, if you buy enough 8 pt CSLs with the 23 dex 5 spd Cap, you'll get the same net result. However, Cap in the comics has exhibited both High OCV and High DCV at the same time, has initiative over virtually everybody else, and has amazing dex skill rolls. You can buy lots of 8 pt CSLs, lots of lightning reflexes, and 5 pt skill levels for dex based skills. Or you can do the easy thing and buy dex. ;)

[Morningstar]

Nucleon & Rick,
You have to understand that telepathy is a power in the game, none of us actually possess it. No one knows your house rules and the fact that you dont use any of the champions characters in your game except you. What we ALL have is access to the books champions publishes so that is an easy forum for discussion or debate.

As far as you saying a 30 DEX 6 SPD not being Cap. I have given many examples of why that is appropriate for (again) the game that we all have access to.

As for your question "don't you have normals in your game"?

Yes, SCORPIA, WARPATH,NIGHTHAWK are all normals with expert training. They are not superhuman.The game is filled with them. Again do you see we are using the game as published? When you decide to rewrite every character in the game, it makes our common ground for discussion disappear.

For whoever said"I've been reading Cap for 25 years and he has no more than a 23 dex max"..You must be using house rules too, or you think becoming an IRA terrorist, or growing up on an indian reservation can give you superhuman speed and agility.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
We have to have a baseline for any discussion. I'm simply using the rules as published for my baseline. I'm not interested in house rules because then either of us could make anything up that we want.

Oh please. This is no house rule, but optional rule. You yourself have bring the FAQ answer about it a few post back.

Plus, it makes plenty of senses.


Doesn't fit the comics. Cap in the comics does take out opponents with regularity. He's not merely the team defensive guy.

Obviously, you're no Avenger reader. In Ultimates (I loathe that "parallel universe") you're maybe right about him, but in the regular series, Cap's no big gun; he is a tactician.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Morningstar
As for your question "don't you have normals in your game"?

Yes, SCORPIA, WARPATH,NIGHTHAWK are all normals with expert training. They are not superhuman.The game is filled with them. Again do you see we are using the game as published? When you decide to rewrite every character in the game, it makes our common ground for discussion disappear.


I wouldn't say that Champion's published characters are common ground for relativity.

NCMs and the STR table are.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
Those 3 pt levels with MA cannot be used vs ranged attacks! Those swarms of Hydra agents would mop the floor with a Cap with only 3 pt levels. If you start buying 5 or 8 pt levels, you'll lose any cost savings at all. Dex is a far better simulator of Cap in the comics since none of those agents ever hit him. And he definitely acts more than 33% more often than one agent. A low dex Cap is not supported by the comics that I read.


A DEX 20-23 Cap with superhuman training is plenty enough to take on Hydra agents. Works well with sweep.

Even considering how rough a time you got with block/Deflect, Martial Dodge can be used against ranged attacks.

But I wouldn't have too if I'd take on this Hydra horde with Cap. A DCV 15-16 and OCV 14-15 should be plenty enough.

(As long, of course, as those Hydra agents are not STR 30, DEX 27 and SPD 6 "normals".)

[Pattern Ghost]

Yeah, and all Cap fights are hordes of Hydra agents...

Here's the deal:

Cap has:

One of the best initiatives in the Marvel Universe
One of the highest CVs in the Marvel Universe
A boatload of DEX-Based skills at high levels

If I got a character sheet with a bunch of DEX-Fudges like Lightning Reflexes, CSLs, and Levels with DEX Skills, I'd hand it back and tell the player just to buy the stupid DEX.

He also has:

Mediocre defenses without blocking/deflecting with his shield
A huge habit of using that shield against superhuman attacks, including ranged and strength based.
The ability to run through vast hordes of agents, and take them down.
The ability to make an offensive attack a panel after doing a bunch of deflections.

That's SPEED, folks. If he has a 4 Speed, he'll run out of actions to abort to WAY too soon, and NEVER go on the offense. He cannot sweep agents who aren't standing adjacent to each other. He could sweep and move, though. A SPD of 6 is totally reasonable, and a heck of a lot easier to read on a sheet, and to adjudicate than a buttload of special attacks and PSLs cluttering up the place.

Cap's performance is best modelled by a high DEX and at LEAST a 6 SPD. The "concept is king" argument doesn't wash when it gets in the way of gameplay.

If you think the NCM rules are what to go by instead of the NPCs, I suggest you read them, b/c taking NCM is an OPTION. You don't have to take the disadvantage. What would be the point in taking NCM for 20 pts of Disads if you're going to spend over 20 pts buying abilities (STR, some DEX, and CON were noted earlier as buy ups) over NCM anyway? NCM should either be a campaign rule or not be used, and has no real place in a supers game.

Also, if you want to use the NCM discussion and tables as a basis of argument, try reading the Champions Genre book and seeing what it has to say on the subject. I'll save you the effort.

From page 57:



Beyond Competent is Legendary. Few humans reach this lofty plateau; generally speaking, ordinary people never obtain it. Only truly exceptional individuals -- heroes and superheroes -- have Legendary Characteristics. The upper limit of Legendary is the upper limit of normal human attainment.


Let's parse that, shall we?

Upper limits of Legendary are 30 for primaries and DEF 15, SPD 6-7, REC 11-13, END and STUN 60, and higher than NCM movement.

"Few humans reach this lofty plateau.." Stever Rogers was given a drug and radiation therapy specifically to reach this plateau. He is the freaking poster child for this plateau.

"heroes and superheroes" I think Cap qualifies there.

"Only truly exceptional individuals..." Again, he's the poster child for truly exceptional.

"...is the upper limit of normal human attainment." CONCEPT CONCEPT CONCEPT.... that IS Cap's concept, in the nutshell.

The NCM = 20 and SPD 4 argument is a moot point dealing with Cap or any other superhero.

If you're bored and want to throw away WAY more points than you net from taking NCM when building him, that's fine, but he's not capped at 20/4, or even 23/5.

Now, if you want to build a low-speed Cap, there is a whole sidebar on lowering the NCM threshold, and since Cap exceeds that threshold to the maximum attainable by normals -- the maximum a normal can buy over NCM -- you'd want to adjust that NCM threshold. Cap is the benchmark, though, and if you impose NCM on him, he's going to end up buying over in any event. There's threshold, then there's max you can buy over, which is Cap-land.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
Yeah, and all Cap fights are hordes of Hydra agents...

Here's the deal:

Cap has:

One of the best initiatives in the Marvel Universe
One of the highest CVs in the Marvel Universe
A boatload of DEX-Based skills at high levels

If I got a character sheet with a bunch of DEX-Fudges like Lightning Reflexes, CSLs, and Levels with DEX Skills, I'd hand it back and tell the player just to buy the stupid DEX.

He also has:

Mediocre defenses without blocking/deflecting with his shield
A huge habit of using that shield against superhuman attacks, including ranged and strength based.
The ability to run through vast hordes of agents, and take them down.
The ability to make an offensive attack a panel after doing a bunch of deflections.

That's SPEED, folks. If he has a 4 Speed, he'll run out of actions to abort to WAY too soon, and NEVER go on the offense. He cannot sweep agents who aren't standing adjacent to each other. He could sweep and move, though. A SPD of 6 is totally reasonable, and a heck of a lot easier to read on a sheet, and to adjudicate than a buttload of special attacks and PSLs cluttering up the place.

Cap's performance is best modelled by a high DEX and at LEAST a 6 SPD. The "concept is king" argument doesn't wash when it gets in the way of gameplay.

If you think the NCM rules are what to go by instead of the NPCs, I suggest you read them, b/c taking NCM is an OPTION. You don't have to take the disadvantage. What would be the point in taking NCM for 20 pts of Disads if you're going to spend over 20 pts buying abilities (STR, some DEX, and CON were noted earlier as buy ups) over NCM anyway? NCM should either be a campaign rule or not be used, and has no real place in a supers game.

Also, if you want to use the NCM discussion and tables as a basis of argument, try reading the Champions Genre book and seeing what it has to say on the subject. I'll save you the effort.

From page 57:



Let's parse that, shall we?

Upper limits of Legendary are 30 for primaries and DEF 15, SPD 6-7, REC 11-13, END and STUN 60, and higher than NCM movement.

"Few humans reach this lofty plateau.." Stever Rogers was given a drug and radiation therapy specifically to reach this plateau. He is the freaking poster child for this plateau.

"heroes and superheroes" I think Cap qualifies there.

"Only truly exceptional individuals..." Again, he's the poster child for truly exceptional.

"...is the upper limit of normal human attainment." CONCEPT CONCEPT CONCEPT.... that IS Cap's concept, in the nutshell.

The NCM = 20 and SPD 4 argument is a moot point dealing with Cap or any other superhero.

If you're bored and want to throw away WAY more points than you net from taking NCM when building him, that's fine, but he's not capped at 20/4, or even 23/5.

Now, if you want to build a low-speed Cap, there is a whole sidebar on lowering the NCM threshold, and since Cap exceeds that threshold to the maximum attainable by normals -- the maximum a normal can buy over NCM -- you'd want to adjust that NCM threshold. Cap is the benchmark, though, and if you impose NCM on him, he's going to end up buying over in any event. There's threshold, then there's max you can buy over, which is Cap-land.

I think that about sums it up. Brilliant.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
He also has:

Mediocre defenses without blocking/deflecting with his shield (...)
The ability to make an offensive attack a panel after doing a bunch of deflections.
CSLs, and a humble enough DEX so he can cancel almost immediatly after an attck..


If you think the NCM rules are what to go by instead of the NPCs, I suggest you read them, b/c taking NCM is an OPTION. You don't have to take the disadvantage. What would be the point in taking NCM for 20 pts of Disads if you're going to spend over 20 pts buying abilities (STR, some DEX, and CON were noted earlier as buy ups) over NCM anyway? NCM should either be a campaign rule or not be used, and has no real place in a supers game.

NCMs are a disavantage in my campaign. NOT a rule. How would I roleplay someone who's proud of his humanity and is looked by the masses as "just a man, like one of us" if I buy a SPD 6 like if it was a new shirt?

Here is an interesting bit.

In Avenger no 170 (The Korvak Saga, where Cap's no slouch), Cap is training, and is sweating lifting a 500 lbs barbel bar. While doing so, he tells Beast "...I don't have any special powers like the rest of you".

500 lbs is roughly 227 kg. It takes a STR of 15 to lift 200 kg, and 18 to lift 300 kg. The Guiness book of world records says that 302.5 kg is the heaviest mass lifted off the ground by a man.

Doesn't Cap supposed to be the pinacle of human performance? Can he lift 1200 kg (STR 28), or even 600 kg (STR 23)?

Same thing for DEX or SPD for that matter.

I think you guys have somewhat lost perspective. It seems to me like your heroes belong more to the 90s Image stuff, drawn by Liefield. They could vanquish these icons of yours such as Cap on any given day. But would they sell?

Without concept, no, of course.

Abdicate, mortals! :D

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Oh please. This is no house rule, but optional rule. You yourself have bring the FAQ answer about it a few post back.

Plus, it makes plenty of senses.

An optional rule is a house rule. In the official rules, a Cap with just CSLs won't work.



Originally posted by Nucleon

Obviously, you're no Avenger reader. In Ultimates (I loathe that "parallel universe") you're maybe right about him, but in the regular series, Cap's no big gun; he is a tactician.

He also takes down his share of opponents. He does not just sit around aborting phase after phase.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
A DEX 20-23 Cap with superhuman training is plenty enough to take on Hydra agents. Works well with sweep.

Even considering how rough a time you got with block/Deflect, Martial Dodge can be used against ranged attacks.

But I wouldn't have too if I'd take on this Hydra horde with Cap. A DCV 15-16 and OCV 14-15 should be plenty enough.

(As long, of course, as those Hydra agents are not STR 30, DEX 27 and SPD 6 "normals".)

How the heck are you getting a DCV of 15-16 vs range attacks using 3 pt CSLs?

Your DCV 8 Cap will get destroyed by a horde of dex 14 spd 3 hydra agents with 1-2 skill levels.

You keep thinking that these cheapo 3 pt CSLs can do everything that a 5 or 8 pt CSL can. That's simply not true.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
CSLs, and a humble enough DEX so he can cancel almost immediatly after an attck..


NCMs are a disavantage in my campaign. NOT a rule. How would I roleplay someone who's proud of his humanity and is looked by the masses as "just a man, like one of us" if I buy a SPD 6 like if it was a new shirt?

Here is an interesting bit.

In Avenger no 170 (The Korvak Saga, where Cap's no slouch), Cap is training, and is sweating lifting a 500 lbs barbel bar. While doing so, he tells Beast "...I don't have any special powers like the rest of you".

500 lbs is roughly 227 kg. It takes a STR of 15 to lift 200 kg, and 18 to lift 300 kg. The Guiness book of world records says that 302.5 kg is the heaviest mass lifted off the ground by a man.

Doesn't Cap supposed to be the pinacle of human performance? Can he lift 1200 kg (STR 28), or even 600 kg (STR 23)?

Same thing for DEX or SPD for that matter.

I think you guys have somewhat lost perspective. It seems to me like your heroes belong more to the 90s Image stuff, drawn by Liefield. They could vanquish these icons of yours such as Cap on any given day. But would they sell?

Without concept, no, of course.

Abdicate, mortals! :D

He's doing reps with 500 lbs. Lifting in Champions isn't reps over your head, it's how much you can get off the ground, and not necessarily repeatedly or over your head.

If you're going to be pulling isolated scenes from comics, then a Conan the Barbarian issue when he was transported to the modern world, he was able to lift the front end of a car from the ground. Cap is at least as strong as Conan so he should be able to do the same thing.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Nucleon
I think you guys have somewhat lost perspective. It seems to me like your heroes belong more to the 90s Image stuff, drawn by Liefield. They could vanquish these icons of yours such as Cap on any given day. But would they sell?

Without concept, no, of course.

Abdicate, mortals! :D

You assume we don't have perspective? I would say thats pretty narrowminded. I'm sure most here are comic fanatics to one extent or another. I've been reading them 25+ years myself. At one point, I had over 10000 comics before I downsized. The largest portions were Avengers and Thor.

I won't argue isolated incidents. I could go in the opposite direction as yours and bring up the time Cap picked up and threw a motorcycle with one hand. My perspective comes from examining the character as a whole, and what they most often can do.

[Morningstar]

Great Post Pattern Ghost. Lots of good points eliquated in a new way.

Nucleon, The "most lifted you are reading is an overhead press and control. Champions strength is "get it off the ground and stagger a few steps". The would more equate to a deadlift which the record is now over 1,000 lbs. Not to mention Cap is the strongest that a human CAN be. Meaning he is at a level where no normal can surpass. It is safe to say with miss maximum durability and dexterity to assist in a lift, he could far surpass any common records on this earth, not to mention the aggrandized one of marvel comics. If Cap was limited to what is possible for a human in this reality, half of what he does wouldn't exist.

Now on to SPD. Lets assume you are a normal man, SPD 2. Why is it inconceivable to you that a human could have a 6 or 7 SPD? I would bet the house that in a 12 second span, Roy Jones Jr. could outpunch you way more than 7-2! Or any top level martial artist.

You said that champions published characters are not common grounds for relativity?? They are all relative to each other which is the point. You choose to lower everything in your campaign, everyone understands that now. But my god for the 100th time, that is the game we play, the charaters we base ours off, and parameters that the game has established as attainable by humans and superhumans. Pattern Ghost even gave you the page number it is detailed on.

[Rick]

Ok I've never once mentioned a single house rule in this conversation. I've been posting on these boards since Bruce Harlick was running them, I think in tose years I've made my feelings on these issues most clear. This is about how we write up our characters, and how different we all think of these things. Morningstar if we're going to give you a stroke I suggest you sit down and relax, we're talking about hero character creation not the constitutionality of a federal income tax.

All I've said is that I reduced the dex and spd of all characters in my games. Why to avoid this over spending on Dex and Spd and free up on average 18-20 points for my players. I said that you can write up a 35dex 6-7spd cap't for your own world or liking. I don't care all I'm saying is that he doesn't have to have attributes that high. I've had 23dex 5spd martial artist W/LOTS of C/L, W/out shields kick the crap out of whole units of agents (well trained 13dex 3spd), and wollop 6-7 expertly trained agents (15dex 4spd) with little trouble. That's what levels do.

There are options in the hero system, there is no rule that says for Captain America to kick ass he MUST BE atleast a 6 spd.

As far as your inane telepathy comment is concerned...I think inane says enough.

[Stargazer]

very well said Rick..im 100% behind you on this:)
to bad we dont live in the same city..(i assume) cause u, nukleon and myself could have one hell of a great game:)

[Morningstar]

Rick,

I just went back and reviewed what you have posted. I realized that always prefaced your comments with the characters of "your world". I apologize, if I would have caught that each time before it would have been obvious to me we where not talking apples to apples. I got you caught up in the posts with Nucleon and Stargazer. If everyone is uses lower scores in your game than a lower score is appropriate for everyone.

However no one automatically knows your feelings on these matters regardless of how long you have been posting or who ran the boards back then. No one has ever denied that you can make up for a lower dex to a degree by taking a lot of levels. But we having been trying to set the correct concept for Captain America. If we don't know you are talking about "your world",(which I missed) it is fair to assume you mean the one Champions has created and put charaters into. I think it is plain to see that in Champions world, Cap would certainly warrant higher stats among the 100+ characters than you or Nucleon use in your world.

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
The "concept is king" argument doesn't wash when it gets in the way of gameplay.
That is crap. This is a roleplaying game, NOT A COMBAT GAME! Concept is king, if you believe other wise, find a darn minis game and play that. I agree that you MIGHT need to find a middle ground between concept and combat, but no one should ever say, "I bought more DEX because CSLs are inefficeint." Taking a points hit is part of concept.

Question: Why should anyone buy damage classes for their martial arts? STR is just cheaper.

Answer: Because the character isn't that freaking strong.

I would like to see you guys get away from the Cap example and try some generalities. I think always using Cap as an example is hurting everyones argument.

John Spencer

[Pattern Ghost]

You know what crap is? Pulling a single line out of a post and going of on a little diatribe. He's a fictional character, get over yourself.

The point of the post, had you bothered to read the whole thing, was that Cap could very well have anything between 20s and 30s for his stats.

The point of that comment in particular was that if you're going to buy everything that DEX does up to a certain level, you're better off buyinig the DEX.

I suggest you pull your head out of your [posterior] and get over your attitude.

[JohnOSpencer]

Politeness won't let me respond properly. I only respond to the part of your post I disagreed with and that was it. I don't care about what DEX cap has. I think that A)using him all the time is hurting this discussion. B)You should build characters according to concept and efficiency be secondary. And C)You should learn some manners.

John Spencer



Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
You know what crap is? Pulling a single line out of a post and going of on a little diatribe. He's a fictional character, get over yourself.

The point of the post, had you bothered to read the whole thing, was that Cap could very well have anything between 20s and 30s for his stats.

The point of that comment in particular was that if you're going to buy everything that DEX does up to a certain level, you're better off buyinig the DEX.

I suggest you pull your head out of your ass and get over your attitude.

[Pattern Ghost]

Politeness? A little late to take the high road after you've chosen to respond initially by using the word "crap" to describe another member's post and made the comment that. "This is a roleplaying game, NOT A COMBAT GAME! " both of which are insulting.

Let me make this clear: Had you questioned the concept in a less insulting manner, you would have gotten a response that was a [heck] of a lot more polite and would have explained what you so obviously missed. Aside from the fact that you went off half-cocked with the "crap" comment, you also have no [fornicating] idea how I play any game, and the "NOT A COMBAT GAME!" yelling is absurd and childish, especially since that wasn't the point of the [fornicating] comment in the first place.

If your concept is that you have all of the effects of a high dex and you turn in a character sheet that's a major pain in the [posterior] to read, then that gets in the way of gameplay. You seem to think that the word "gameplay" means "combat." I was referring to the concept that a clean character sheet lets you get on with the business of roleplaying.

If the concept is that the character has uncanny accuracy, but not whole body coordination above the norm, then CLS are appropriate.

We basically agree on this point, but you decided to reply with an attitude that would only end up costing you some teeth in a face to face conversation.

So, again, pull your [fornicating] head out of your [posterior]and leave your snide attitude at the door.

[Hermit]

Guys, tempers are clearly getting a little heated, but if I might ask, could we watch the language?

Just a request.

EDIT: Thank you :)

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Hermit
Guys, tempers are clearly getting a little heated, but if I might ask, could we watch the language?

Just a request.

OK, I'll clean it up.

[Rick]

You know We've been having this very same arguement for 3 years now...it always gets personal.

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Rick
You know We've been having this very same arguement for 3 years now...it always gets personal.

It doesn't have to if people leave their attitudes and personal accusations at the door. That tends to be a problem with gamers. Everyone involved in a debate is usually highly intelligent, and convinced that they're 200% in the right in their opinions.

I think one of the biggest problems here is in identifying which argument everyone is in.

[Morningstar]

[QUOTE]I would like to see you guys get away from the Cap example and try some generalities. I think always using Cap as an example is hurting everyones argument.

There are a few different arguments going on within this thread, which is now way off its original course.

1. What are Cap's stats?
2. Concept vs. Effectiveness
3. DEX vs. Lvl's

I thnk the Cap stats got crushed among the other two. I can probably end this one quick....Does anyone disagee tht Cap is the strongest, fastest, and toughest a non superhuman can be? Regardless of where you max your campaigns stats for expert normals shouldn't he be the pinnacle? If anyone disagrees with this they simply don't read marvel comics, or they just want to change him for there game. These are just the facts of his origin.

I think everyone also agrees that concept is what you base your characters around first, but again what is outside the concept of Captain America got caught up in the Champions game as published and certain players modifications to fit the way they want to play. Does anyone really think effectiveness is more important than concept? I doubt it.

Dex vs. lvls? Well I tend to favor the mechanics that Dex is the better investment in most circumstances. This doesn't mean a normal should have a 40 DEX, just a direct comparison.

I would like someone to respond to what I said about a normals SPD of 2 vs Roy Jones Jr., Sugar Ray Leonard etc. having the capacity of 7. I think he could outpunch most weekend warriors I know at least 7-2 in a 12 second span. I actually have a lot of personal experience in this as I have belts, or degrees in Shotokan, Brazilian Ju-Jitsu and Muay-Thai. Funny side note, people tend to generalize comic collectors as all geeks but a suprising amount of martial artists I know enjoy comics a lot.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Rick
You know We've been having this very same arguement for 3 years now...it always gets personal. You should talk about something less emotive.

Like Iraq.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Morningstar

Does anyone disagee tht Cap is the strongest, fastest, and toughest a non superhuman can be? I think there's a perfectly reasonable argument that some of Cap's comic book abilities are way above human maximum. All this talk of being 'only human' is bullshit. It's hard to tell of course, because we don't know where human maximum is.

[Morningstar]

[QUOTE]I think there's a perfectly reasonable argument that some of Cap's comic book abilities are way above human maximum. All this talk of being 'only human' is bullshit. It's hard to tell of course, because we don't know where human maximum is.

I agree. A lot of what he does is beyond human in this world. I am just saying that he is supposed to be the best a human can possibly be in Marvels world without registering as a mutant or a superhuman on detects, scans, etc. I equated that to the top of the "legendary" stats in Champions. 30 being the number they have settled on. I also think there characters would support this as well.

BTW, I mentioned Roy Jones earlier, he has a small part in the MAtrix Reloaded. I saw it today. Fun. A couple of Superman references too! SEE I'm back on the thread!

[Stargazer]

Originally posted by Morningstar
[QUOTE]I would like to see you guys get away from the Cap example and try some generalities. I think always using Cap as an example is hurting everyones argument.

There are a few different arguments going on within this thread, which is now way off its original course.

1. What are Cap's stats?
2. Concept vs. Effectiveness
3. DEX vs. Lvl's

I thnk the Cap stats got crushed among the other two. I can probably end this one quick....Does anyone disagee tht Cap is the strongest, fastest, and toughest a non superhuman can be? Regardless of where you max your campaigns stats for expert normals shouldn't he be the pinnacle? If anyone disagrees with this they simply don't read marvel comics, or they just want to change him for there game. These are just the facts of his origin.

:) i totaly agree (but batman is a fraction of a hair width behind:P..sorry im a huge batman fan:)

I think everyone also agrees that concept is what you base your characters around first, but again what is outside the concept of Captain America got caught up in the Champions game as published and certain players modifications to fit the way they want to play. Does anyone really think effectiveness is more important than concept? I doubt it.

:)again i agree:)

Dex vs. lvls? Well I tend to favor the mechanics that Dex is the better investment in most circumstances. This doesn't mean a normal should have a 40 DEX, just a direct comparison.

:)thats where i disagree but u make a good point:)

I would like someone to respond to what I said about a normals SPD of 2 vs Roy Jones Jr., Sugar Ray Leonard etc. having the capacity of 7. I think he could outpunch most weekend warriors I know at least 7-2 in a 12 second span. I actually have a lot of personal experience in this as I have belts, or degrees in Shotokan, Brazilian Ju-Jitsu and Muay-Thai. Funny side note, people tend to generalize comic collectors as all geeks but a suprising amount of martial artists I know enjoy comics a lot.

:)again i agree:) i myself look more like a biker then a geek...(ask nukleon he knows:) )

[Nucleon]

Hear ye mortals. Many posts adressed to Him bore a semblence in nature. So Nucleon shall post them All Into One.


Originally posted by Gary
An optional rule is a house rule. In the official rules, a Cap with just CSLs won't work. How the heck are you getting a DCV of 15-16 vs range attacks using 3 pt CSLs? You keep thinking that these cheapo 3 pt CSLs can do everything that a 5 or 8 pt CSL can. That's simply not true. Your DCV 8 Cap will get destroyed by a horde of dex 14 spd 3 hydra agents with 1-2 skill levels.
(Nucleon Grunts). I doubt you ever been a GM, Gary (not that's an offense or something, being no GM is allright). I may be wrong...

For one, you ignored the rule of additional Blocks, then you can't see over a simple (optional, yes) rule that makes plenty of sense in this case, and overall you seem impervious to the concept that a DEX 20-23, SPD 4-5 character is possible to play and enjoy, even in the big leagues. This last one is your loss

There, there, I give you your point. No Deflect. So what. I can Martial Dodge, even vs ranged fire with those same 3-pts cheap CSLs. And I still hit you at the first occasion I got, still with those cheapos. SPD won't change squat in this fact. Sorry, I just will not go through the mechanics again. Time to move on.


By Starlord
If you're going to be pulling isolated scenes from comics, then a Conan the Barbarian issue when he was transported to the modern world, he was able to lift the front end of a car from the ground. Cap is at least as strong as Conan so he should be able to do the same thing.(...)

I won't argue isolated incidents. I could go in the opposite direction as yours and bring up the time Cap picked up and threw a motorcycle with one hand. My perspective comes from examining the character as a whole, and what they most often can do.
I agree with the essence of your post. I am able to stomach up to a 28 STR for Cap. Then he would be able to do that up to 4-6", per the STR table.

As for perspective, our playing groupe always did include, at one time or another, a normal human with NCMs. Sometimes it's a Punisher-type, or a Martial Artist, or a tech-user of some kind. They did kicked butts. Another poster near the start of this thread said that he always keeps sending agents and such mundanes at his heroes for them to keep this perspective in mind. I think that's a great idea.

But again, if a mundane human can't make it in your campaign, you may have a problem.


This time by Morningstar
Nucleon, The "most lifted you are reading is an overhead press and control. Champions strength is "get it off the ground and stagger a few steps". The would more equate to a deadlift which the record is now over 1,000 lbs.
1000 lbs? That's 450 kg. STR 21.

I think what's making Cap great is that he is not only able to do such a feat of STR, but as you say he is also at that peak in DEX, and CON, etc. That's something. Usually, when you're the strongest man on earth, you're not the most agile at the same time. We might agree.


Now on to SPD. Lets assume you are a normal man, SPD 2. Why is it inconceivable to you that a human could have a 6 or 7 SPD? I would bet the house that in a 12 second span, Roy Jones Jr. could outpunch you way more than 7-2!
Well, you've got to agree on some bases. Champion is but a game. Let's say Roy Jones Jr. has Autofire!


You said that champions published characters are not common grounds for relativity?? They are all relative to each other which is the point. You choose to lower everything in your campaign, everyone understands that now.
I never had to use them, save for some guys in Classic Ennemies, most of them re-worked. Same amount of point (not lowered at all), often more specislised as to not let, say, Sunburst impede on Firewing's schtick. Even in the published adventures, the few times I used them, I used to put my campaign's people in place instead of the published NPCs therein.

And now that's you've told me that the normals in it reach 30 on a regular basis without NCMs, I'm not sure I will change my habits...

:rolleyes:

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Stargazer
:)again i agree:) i myself look more like a biker then a geek...(ask nukleon he knows:) )

Yeah. A biker with Density Increase.

(That's Nucleon, mortal.)

;)

[Shaun Hendricks]

I'm intrigued by the idea that you can have any kind of "Stat" race, or any race at all for that matter. You are supposed to have SET limits by the GM (it's that interesting thing called a Campaign Design Sheet, The Word of God, or whatever you want to call it.) You hit that wall and the GM is supposed to squash you like the pathetic bug you are if you try to go beyond those limits. Sure, some cleaver character conception and an offsetting weakness in the character some place else, may allow you to 'bend' this wall, but you should never be allowed to stray too far from it.

Characters that always hit = boring
Characters that cannot be stopped = boring
Characters that have no failings or limitations = boring

Characters that have flaws, personality, and aren't the best at everything they do = fun and exciting

That's the whole idea behind 'balanced' characters. If you are an amazing combat monster, your personal life (or anything out of combat) should be hell. If you have a stellar normal 'life' you should suck in combat or be about as useful as a paperweight. (Used correctly, a paperweight COULD be dangerous in combat, but never by itself! :D ) Most characters should fit somewhere between those two ideas. BALANCE is what makes the game fun. Sometimes ya gotta lose, at least somewhere, with the character.

There are no such things as "Stat/Skill/Power Races" in a balanced campaign. Points limits and character conception should always dictate the boundaries of a characters ability.(argh, I used THAT weak notion, apologies to powergamers everywhere... yes Virginia, that is sarcasm... ;) )

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
(Nucleon Grunts). I doubt you ever been a GM, Gary (not that's an offense or something, being no GM is allright). I may be wrong...

I have been a GM before. I know the rules very well and run villains very intelligently. I have to, the players when I GM'd were extremely intelligent and ruthless.


Originally posted by Nucleon

For one, you ignored the rule of additional Blocks, then you can't see over a simple (optional, yes) rule that makes plenty of sense in this case, and overall you seem impervious to the concept that a DEX 20-23, SPD 4-5 character is possible to play and enjoy, even in the big leagues. This last one is your loss

The additional blocks is irrelevant when dealing with a mix of range and HTH attacks.

Sorry, a Dex 20 4 spd martial artist just isn't effective or fun in the big leagues (350+ pts). That character might work well in a lower power campaign, but not with higher level characters.


Originally posted by Nucleon

There, there, I give you your point. No Deflect. So what. I can Martial Dodge, even vs ranged fire with those same 3-pts cheap CSLs. And I still hit you at the first occasion I got, still with those cheapos. SPD won't change squat in this fact. Sorry, I just will not go through the mechanics again. Time to move on.

If you're dealing with the high dex Cap, the dodge is less effective than the block, because you can't use the 4 levels with shield which more than cancels the 3 DCV bonus you get compared to Martial Block. You're making yourself more vulnerable. And the speed advantage will crush you anyway.

Vs the agents, you might take out one or two with a free attack, but if the agents are run with the least bit of intelligence, half to 2/3s of them would be holding actions at all times. After your first attack, the agents will pulverize you at DCV 8. You could choose to dodge forever I suppose, but it's not very effective and very boring and eventually the agents will start rolling 3's. Face it, those cheapos are cheap for a reason. The Cap in the comics certainly doesn't have them, he has 5 and 8 pt levels.


Originally posted by Nucleon

I agree with the essence of your post. I am able to stomach up to a 28 STR for Cap. Then he would be able to do that up to 4-6", per the STR table.

If you can accept a 28 str for Cap, why can't you accept a 28-30 dex for Cap?


Originally posted by Nucleon

But again, if a mundane human can't make it in your campaign, you may have a problem.

A mundane human HTH specialist with the NCM disad can't at 350+. They simply aren't competitive with characters with no NCM. They can as power armor dudes though.


Originally posted by Nucleon

I think what's making Cap great is that he is not only able to do such a feat of STR, but as you say he is also at that peak in DEX, and CON, etc. That's something. Usually, when you're the strongest man on earth, you're not the most agile at the same time. We might agree.


This I can agree with. :)

[Morningstar]

[QUOTENucleon, The "most lifted you are reading is an overhead press and control. Champions strength is "get it off the ground and stagger a few steps". The would more equate to a deadlift which the record is now over 1,000 lbs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1000 lbs? That's 450 kg. STR 21.

You ran into one of the areas of Champions that is a serious flaw. Flaw is the wrong word, decision to make the game playable is more like it.

Strength and SPD are the 2 characteristics totally out of whack with comics, and physics for that matter.

Look at the STR damage, throwing and knockback comparisons and you will see what I mean.
The Nighthawk has a 20 STR and can lift 400gk With his skill levels he can do 10d6 dmg. That is the same as a superhuman that can lift 25 tons! This works for playability but is not very compatible with reality or comics. Even Cap the prime human doesn't hit 1/100th as hard as She-Hulk. It is ok in the comics since the writers have complete control of how the story and combat play out. But in game mechanics you have to equalize to some degree.

Now look at the throwing table: Thor and the Hulk have both thrown large tanks completely out of orbit. Um..what exactly is that STR score? However if you look at there lifting ability on the chart they would stat no higher than 60--80. Hulk can lift 90(over 100 when angry) tons which would be certainly no more than 200 in champions lift. With that 65 STR he could throw a tank 8 meters! Not exactly out of orbit. Grond with his 90 STR could throw it 28 meters. Wohoo!

Look at some of the knockback examples in comics. Hulk punched Juggernaut for miles once(didnt hurt him but how many body dice were rolled? Phoenix and Firelord blasted each other for miles once(not a scratch on either one) Even Wolverine got puched into orbit with escape velocity and survived! Exactly how much dice did he take and how much Body does he have? Even with 75% reduction he would be a dead dead mutant. One of the most classic knockbacks ever was Gladiator hitting Thing when they first met. Try to count the body required for Thing to crash completely through all of those vehicles and the distance he travelled. Dead Rockman. He was stunned and virtually dead but he lived(had his heart restarted by the Torch). And what kind of strength was that for that punch? You would have get thousands of body to do these things.

OK what about SPD. Spiderman moves with 17 times human reflexes, agility and speed according to Marvel. Since the SPD table only goes up to 12, playing a true speedster is impossible. Wouldnt Quicksilvers Speed be closer to 100 and Flash 1,000? Of course we cant have that because the game wouldn't be playable. It would be pretty boring waiting for segment 250 to get your first move while the speedster rolls dice for hours.

It is a great game that has to cut a lot of the fringes of comics off for funs sake. This is the same reason I think some characters in comics just can't be effectively made in Champions and that is ok. No one should be playing Thor anyway, or a myriad of others. Maybe this should have been a completely new thread to put this one to rest. What do you think?

[Fedifensor]

Here's the main problem I have with the cost of DEX:

+1 DCV = 5 points

+3 DEX (minus the 3 figured points of SPD) = 6 points

So, for 1 extra point, you get +1 OCV with everything and 3 points of Lightning Reflexes. That's not counting the possibility that it brought your DEX high enough to get an extra +1 with all your DEX-based skills.

Sure, the whole package of DEX should cost less than the sum of the parts, but this is ridiculous. Either DCV levels should cost less, or DEX should cost more.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Shaun Hendricks Sure, some cleaver character conception and an offsetting weakness in the character some place else, may allow you to 'bend' this wall, but you should never be allowed to stray too far from it.
It's the Cleaver!! :eek:

I don't run with set limits. (or at least that I've had to limit) Then again, I've got very reasonable players so I don't have any worry. :cool:

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Morningstar
[QUOTE]Now look at the throwing table: Thor and the Hulk have both thrown large tanks completely out of orbit. Um..what exactly is that STR score? However if you look at there lifting ability on the chart they would stat no higher than 60--80. Hulk can lift 90(over 100 when angry) tons which would be certainly no more than 200 in champions lift. With that 65 STR he could throw a tank 8 meters! Not exactly out of orbit. Grond with his 90 STR could throw it 28 meters. Wohoo!


Sounds like you might be following the OHOTMU too closely, my friend. The strength levels in the Handbook for the upper echelon guys are pure bunk. The Marvel Editors-in-chief for both runs have even admitted as much. All the big Marvel heavy hitters have easily lifted things in the couple hundred ton range (and more) many times in the comics.

You can pretty much assume the weight limits for anyone stronger than Spidey in the Handbooks are way off.

Just FYI (now I've veered even further off topic:eek: )

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by lemming
It's the Cleaver!! :eek:

I don't run with set limits. (or at least that I've had to limit) Then again, I've got very reasonable players so I don't have any worry. :cool:

Never played with limits, either. Never had a problem with stat races, either. Even 20 years ago when we were all 13-14 year olds.

I suspect stat escalation it has nothing to do with rules problems, its more of a player/GM maturity problem. ;)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
Sorry, a Dex 20 4 spd martial artist just isn't effective or fun in the big leagues (350+ pts).(...)A mundane human HTH specialist with the NCM disad can't at 350+. They simply aren't competitive with characters with no NCM.
Once again, your loss.


Vs the agents, you might take out one or two with a free attack, but if the agents are run with the least bit of intelligence, half to 2/3s of them would be holding actions at all times. After your first attack, the agents will pulverize you at DCV 8. You could choose to dodge forever I suppose, but it's not very effective and very boring and eventually the agents will start rolling 3's.
Whatever. If any of the agents rolls triple snake eyes, they hit my Cap, your Cap, or even a 180 DEX "Cap" for that matter. Still I don't see the relevance.

Why would I put everything in OCV vs these anyway? Are they that hard to hit? I may even not see the need to Dodge or Block against these. Martial Strike should do the trick, thank you very much.


If you can accept a 28 str for Cap, why can't you accept a 28-30 dex for Cap?

Big STR scores in HERO are, as it is, more common than high DEX. While STRs of 60, 70 and 80 are legion, high DEXs are often half of that. I know that CSLs are more my schtick if I want to build a trained fighter and tactician, and at NCM, this extra DEX comes expensive. I figure an active valour of 10 (or 20 NCM) over NCM I could afford on a 450-500 pts character, but more would be a waste. That is a STR of 28, a DEX of 23, and a CON of 25. And a SPD of 5 max.

[Stargazer]

Originally posted by Gary


Sorry, a Dex 20 4 spd martial artist just isn't effective or fun in the big leagues (350+ pts). That character might work well in a lower power campaign, but not with higher level characters.

"if ur talking cosmic big leagues i agree...otherwise that simply not true....i made characters with lower dex and spd then the "big leaguers...and where on par with them...u need to use ur brain more often then the stronger/faster/more dex oriented characters"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary
[B]
If you can accept a 28 str for Cap, why can't you accept a 28-30 dex for Cap?

A mundane human HTH specialist with the NCM disad can't at 350+. They simply aren't competitive with characters with no NCM. They can as power armor dudes though.

"so batman wouldnt be competitive??? i think not!!!!!
and whose more human then Bats????..he doesnt need a power armor...he has other things going beside dex and speed...its called a brain...and he uses it very well...and i think we can all agree that batman plays in the big leagues...no?"




but again this is just my humble opinion......


P.S.: to nukleon...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Stargazer
again i agree i myself look more like a biker then a geek...(ask nukleon he knows )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah. A biker with Density Increase.

(That's Nucleon, mortal.)

what do you mean density increase?? ;) aint my fault if im the unstopable/immovable object:D
and im not fat!! im just built like a dwarf thats all:)
(b.t.w. ill get you for that!! :D)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Morningstar
Now look at the throwing table: Thor and the Hulk have both thrown large tanks completely out of orbit. Um..what exactly is that STR score? However if you look at there lifting ability on the chart they would stat no higher than 60--80. Hulk can lift 90(over 100 when angry) tons which would be certainly no more than 200 in champions lift. With that 65 STR he could throw a tank 8 meters! Not exactly out of orbit. Grond with his 90 STR could throw it 28 meters. Wohoo!

The champions of knockback are DC, where characters easily get punched up to the moon. Yet, in the first arc of the current JLA title, Green Lantern puts a white Martian down with a 60-ton weight. That' between 55-60 STR.

Truth is, modern science has yet to set laws for Knockback Effect After A Punch.

Just occured to me. Could you buy Megascale on STR for the means of throwing things and (ouch) knockback? Now that would be Munchkin-Earth for sure.

:D

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Gary
Sorry, a Dex 20 4 spd martial artist just isn't effective or fun in the big leagues (350+ pts). That character might work well in a lower power campaign, but not with higher level characters.I totally agree with this statement. DEX 20 4 SPD (or higher) is where many bricks are at in a 350+ point game. (Our team brick has a 23 DEX 4 SPD.) A martial artist with only 4 SPD would be in big trouble fighting a high-damage/high defense opponent who moves as often, irregardless of DEX or CSLs.

One of the reasons I believe martial artists have high SPD in the first place is so they can burn Phases dodging or otherwise avoiding damage and still get in their own attacks. It's not so they can clobber their opponent and then go out for a latte before the team brick has taken his first swing.

Players and GMs must recognize that all characteristics are relative within each individual campaign, not on a Cosmic Scale of Characteristics™. If the average team brick is a DEX 11 3 SPD ,then perhaps the martial artists can get by with a 20 DEX 4 SPD. But if the bricks are at DEX 18 SPD 4 then the martial artist needs to be faster. In general, I think a martial artist should be at least 50% faster than a typical brick in the campaign. Considering that "normal" humans have a SPD 2 and well trained agents or soldiers would likely have a SPD 3, SPD 4 is hardly slow. Once again, the proper benchmark for comparisons is normal humans with DEX 8 SPD 2. Compared to that standard, a brick with a DEX 18 SPD 4 is a world-class athlete. That's as it should be; CHAMPIONS™ is a superhero role-playing game. Superheroes should be amazing athletes, it's part of the genre.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
IPlayers and GMs must recognize that all characteristics are relative within each individual campaign, not on a Cosmic Scale of Characteristics™. If the average team brick is a DEX 11 3 SPD ,then perhaps the martial artists can get by with a 20 DEX 4 SPD. But if the bricks are at DEX 18 SPD 4 then the martial artist needs to be faster. In general, I think a martial artist should be at least 50% faster than a typical brick in the campaign. Considering that "normal" humans have a SPD 2 and well trained agents or soldiers would likely have a SPD 3, SPD 4 is hardly slow. Once again, the proper benchmark for comparisons is normal humans with DEX 8 SPD 2. Compared to that standard, a brick with a DEX 18 SPD 4 is a world-class athlete. That's as it should be; CHAMPIONS™ is a superhero role-playing game. Superheroes should be amazing athletes, it's part of the genre.

Great point. If your supposedly quick MA is at a lowly SPD 4, where is your brick? SPD 3?!?! The equivalent of a VIPER Agent? The Hulk, Thor, Thing, etc., DO NOT move at the same pace as lowly agents. Please.

Look at linemen, linebackers, and Worlds Strongest Man competitors. They are proof that big and muscular guys aren't slow and plodding. In actuality, they are very fast.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Once again, your loss.

Have you ever actually played a dex 20 spd 4 MA in a 350+ campaign? I've been playing and gaming over 15 years. I believe I know what I'm talking about when I say that this MA won't be competitive.



Originally posted by Nucleon

Whatever. If any of the agents rolls triple snake eyes, they hit my Cap, your Cap, or even a 180 DEX "Cap" for that matter. Still I don't see the relevance.

Why would I put everything in OCV vs these anyway? Are they that hard to hit? I may even not see the need to Dodge or Block against these. Martial Strike should do the trick, thank you very much.

You could put every level in DCV if you want, and still hit the DCV 5 agent. Your DCV with martial strike will be 20 vs HTH attacks (8 + 2 + 10) which pretty much guarantees that no agent will hit you HTH. However, even if you put all 10 3 pt levels into DCV, your DCV is still 8 vs ranged attacks. Those levels and the normal +2 with martial strike do not work vs ranged attacks! It's a little tiring repeating myself. The first time you strike, you'll take out a couple of agents. No question. However the rest will pulverize you at DCV 8.



Originally posted by Nucleon

Big STR scores in HERO are, as it is, more common than high DEX. While STRs of 60, 70 and 80 are legion, high DEXs are often half of that. I know that CSLs are more my schtick if I want to build a trained fighter and tactician, and at NCM, this extra DEX comes expensive. I figure an active valour of 10 (or 20 NCM) over NCM I could afford on a 450-500 pts character, but more would be a waste. That is a STR of 28, a DEX of 23, and a CON of 25. And a SPD of 5 max.

I thought this discussion was about what Cap should be, not what you can afford.

If you can accept a 28-30 for str as peak human, I don't see what the problem is for 28-30 for dex as peak human assuming cost isn't a factor.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Stargazer
"so batman wouldnt be competitive??? i think not!!!!!
and whose more human then Bats????..he doesnt need a power armor...he has other things going beside dex and speed...its called a brain...and he uses it very well...and i think we can all agree that batman plays in the big leagues...no?"


Batman doesn't merely have 20 dex and 4 spd. If he did, he wouldn't be competitive. He probably has 26-28 dex and 6 spd.

I refuse to believe that Batman is only moderately superior to the typical Dex 14 Spd 3 goon that he fights. He acts at least twice as often, not only 33% more often.

[Rick]

"Have you ever actually played a dex 20 spd 4 MA in a 350+ campaign? I've been playing and gaming over 15 years. I believe I know what I'm talking about when I say that this MA won't be competitive."

Actually I have. He kicked ass. Remember 350 pts doesn't mean 6-8 spd it means lots of points. For us it means Options for skills, levels and powers.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick
"Have you ever actually played a dex 20 spd 4 MA in a 350+ campaign? I've been playing and gaming over 15 years. I believe I know what I'm talking about when I say that this MA won't be competitive."

Actually I have. He kicked ass. Remember 350 pts doesn't mean 6-8 spd it means lots of points. For us it means Options for skills, levels and powers.

What were the bricks, energy projectors, and mentalists in that campaign? 14 dex 3 spd? What were the agents?

[Rick]

I belive the Brick was a 12dex 3spd and the enery projector was a 18dex 4spd. I had them all by about 5-6 cvs and lightning reflexes +3. Really good agents clocked in about 15dex-3spd. I was the classic super agent guy. It was a lower powered game W/lots of character utility. The most powerful attacks were around 10d6. It was like a really versatle Xmen campaign.

I've also played in games W/a 29dex 7spd Martial artist. I must say both kicked relativly the same kind of ass in there own enviroment. Remember it'a all in how the GM writes up the game. You seem really stuck in the conception that there is only one way to write characters up, there are many many ways and we enjoy them all in my corner of the woods. If anything we like lower Dexs and Spd's, it just saves points.

[Morningstar]

Have you ever actually played a dex 20 spd 4 MA in a 350+ campaign? I've been playing and gaming over 15 years. I believe I know what I'm talking about when I say that this MA won't be competitive."

Actually I have. He kicked ass. Remember 350 pts doesn't mean 6-8 spd it means lots of points. For us it means Options for skills, levels and powers.
[QUOTE]

Did your campaign allow you to have a 26 DEX and 6 SPD as a MA if you chose to? Champions is a very comprehensive game with virtually limitless options, but in combat SPD is so effective I dont see why you would choose to bypass is if it is in concept and allowable?

Tactically having 6 actions instead of 4 in a turn is a huge advantage, especially in a team setting. Not to mention a lot of fun to have those extra chances to move, attack, save a civilian, heal a teammate, etc. Playing a MA with desolid for example, to hold an action to go desolid is a great signature move to try and set up opponents to hit each other, torment the brick that tried to hit you with a car, etc. But if it takes you out of coming back into play for that whole extra segment, it can be devastating to your team effectiveness, or being able to pull the child to safety or not.

This holds true for any game I can think of, imagine any game be it a board game, sport etc. and think of moving 3 times for every time your opponent moves 2.

[Rick]

We also played a game W/Thing, Spiderman and Night crawler.

Thing- 18dex 4spd

Spiderman- 26dex 6spd

Nightcrawler- 23dex 5spd

Given that at 350 pts thing is really easy to right up, he cost about 320 pts 80str mind you, he ended up being able to hit spidey on a 13 or less. He would have wiped the floor W/the web head. Except that spedy would have kept him intanlged, still one bad role and roll over spidey. That was a fun game my players had a blast W/those characters.

[Rick]

Morningtar that's why there are campaign limits, there weren't going to be 26dex 6spd dudes just floating around unless they were a party buster. I believe there was once a villian speedster who clocked in at a 5 spd W/gobbs of running...I kicked his lilly few levels having ass as well.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick
I belive the Brick was a 12dex 3spd and the enery projector was a 18dex 4spd. I had them all by about 5-6 cvs and lightning reflexes +3. Really good agents clocked in about 15dex-3spd. I was the classic super agent guy. It was a lower powered game W/lots of character utility. The most powerful attacks were around 10d6. It was like a really versatle Xmen campaign.

I've also played in games W/a 29dex 7spd Martial artist. I must say both kicked relativly the same kind of ass in there own enviroment. Remember it'a all in how the GM writes up the game. You seem really stuck in the conception that there is only one way to write characters up, there are many many ways and we enjoy them all in my corner of the woods. If anything we like lower Dexs and Spd's, it just saves points.

I guess I'm viewing things through the comic book convention where agents are merely annoying nuisances. In comics, there is a large separation between supers and agents, where Cap or Batman can deal with dozens of well trained agents at once, and where even Cyclops, Storm, or Iceman have a high enough DCV where agents and normals miss almost all the time.

In a low dex/spd world this won't be the case. 15 dex 3 spd agents are a major threat to 12 dex bricks, 18 dex blasters, or 20 dex MAs with 3-4 spds. If you buy enough 5 pt or 8 pt CSLs so that the agents aren't a threat, then the cost becomes a major factor and you've lost all the savings that you would be counting on.

[Rick]

Well pariah the 4spd Martial artist, with cvs sitting around 14 worked a unit of 6 thug, 3 spds W/cvs around 6-7, like he owned them. No problem, it took about 15 minutes real time...maybe two full turns.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick
Well pariah the 4spd Martial artist, with cvs sitting around 14 worked a unit of 6 thug, 3 spds W/cvs around 6-7, like he owned them. No problem, it took about 15 minutes real time...maybe two full turns.

Did he have 8 pt CSLs or 5 pt DCV levels?

[Rick]

Right the 12 dex 3spd brick W/25rpd 25red is really affraid of the agents W/there 6d6 baster who still have to roll under 11 or 12 to hit him. Yep he's shaking in his boots.

[Morningstar]

Morningtar that's why there are campaign limits, there weren't going to be 26dex 6spd dudes just floating around unless they were a party buster.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is exactly why I asked if you had the option or not or if was limited by campaign or concept

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick
Right the 12 dex 3spd brick W/25rpd 25red is really affraid of the agents W/there 6d6 baster who still have to roll under 11 or 12 to hit him. Yep he's shaking in his boots.

What sort of agents only have 6D6 blasters? Give me a group of agents with AK47s or 8D6 blasters, and that brick is going down fast. Especially if there are a couple with basic martial arts to first martial throw him.

[Rick]

Ok he had he had 6 5 point dcv only levels and aplethera of varius 3 and 5 point combat levels. He had no range ability for the most part so I had no use for all around combat levels. Like I said lots of points.

[Rick]

Gary you still haven't realized that this was a lower power level campaign 6d6 ebs weren't scary but could do some stun to my PC. Even When the viper agents roled out W/their 8d6 blaster our brick could roll three of in a a turn he liked a good challenge.

I could have squeezed out a 5 spd if I'd of liked but I wanted the levels in DCV instead.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick
Ok he had he had 6 5 point dcv only levels and aplethera of varius 3 and 5 point combat levels. He had no range ability for the most part so I had no use for all around combat levels. Like I said lots of points.

That's very expensive. Someone who spent an equal amount of points in Dex instead of levels would clean his clock. However, I suppose it would work in a tightly controlled campaign world. Still, you haven't really saved anything from lowered dex, and in fact have paid more for the same effect.

The blasters or bricks without these DCV levels would be in trouble though...

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick
Gary you still haven't realized that this was a lower power level campaign 6d6 ebs weren't scary but could do some stun to my PC. Even When the viper agents roled out W/their 8d6 blaster our brick could roll three of in a a turn he liked a good challenge.

With his low OCV, the agent being attacked could simply block or dodge, especially if he has basic martial arts. Eventually, 6-8 agents with 8D6 EB's should win unless the brick started throwing cars at them. They'll win a lot faster if they used AK-47s.

You stated that this was 350 pts. 350 isn't low power.

[Rick]

Like we care if Dex is cheaper in the long run, it's the type of campaign it was. I wanted a peak human type guy, and in 4th ed they were very clear as to what that meant. If the only thing we concerned our selfs W/was: what is more cost effective, character concepts would slowly start sliding away. We develope a concept W/in the parameters of our GM's campaign and then everything else is just book work.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick
Like we care if Dex is cheaper in the long run, it's the type of campaign it was. I wanted a peak human type guy, and in 4th ed they were very clear as to what that meant. If the only thing we concerned our selfs W/was: what is more cost effective, character concepts would slowly start sliding away. We develope a concept W/in the parameters of our GM's campaign and then everything else is just book work.

Part of your stated rationale for lowering dexes/spds was to save points.

[Rick]

point level has only a little to do W/power level. GM's set power levels, points don't set power levels.

Given that on an average role the agent W/an 8d6 eb is still bouncing attacks off of the bricks Defences, I don't all of the dodging in the world is all of that scary, an Ak47 is what 2d6 RKA, ok lots of Rpd. And yes cars make wonderful add ons to str. One of the beauties of having a 50 strength.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick
point level has only a little to do W/power level. GM's set power levels, points don't set power levels.

Given that on an average role the agent W/an 8d6 eb is still bouncing attacks off of the bricks Defences, I don't all of the dodging in the world is all of that scary, an Ak47 is what 2d6 RKA, ok lots of Rpd. And yes cars make wonderful add ons to str. One of the beauties of having a 50 strength.

On an average attack, the 8d6 is getting 3.8 stun through 25 defenses. Since the agent with 6 OCV is hitting on a 13- vs a 4 DCV, that's an 83% chance of success. 1 agent blocking or dodging and 5-6 attacking would mean that the damage adds up surprisingly quickly.

With 6 agents with AKs, someone is going to get the high stun multiple eventually, especially with 2 hits on average per attack.

The car is the brick's only chance.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Rick
point level has only a little to do W/power level. GM's set power levels, points don't set power levels.Concept sets power level; if the GM has to enforce power levels then the players are doing something wrong. In my 12-year-old campaign when we jumped from 4th Edition 250-point characters to the same characters at 350 point 5th Edition levels, not a single character increased their DEX, SPD, defenses, or combat levels. Only one character, the team brick, increased her damage dice by 2d6, and that was at the behest of the GMs. If you have a solid character concept, then you can say "Yep, she could do that" or "Nope, she can't do that."

In general terms, points do provide levels of power. Given a well balanced character design, a 350 point character will almost always beat a 250 point character, just as a 500 point character will usually stomp a 350 point character. Of course it is possible to build characters that break this general principle, but few of those characters will be well balanced.

[Champsguy]

Guys guys guys, I don't have to post Captain Beat-Down again, do I?

Let me make this real simple, okay?

Yes, you can build a Captain America with only a 20 Str and a 20 Dex and a 4 Spd. This doesn't make him a "better" character than the guy with a 30 Str, 30 Dex, 7 Spd Cap. After all, I doubt anyone would say that Captain Beat-Down is any closer to "what a normal human could do" than Thanos of Titan, even though his stats were all within NCM.

One of the problems that I have with a 20 Dex, 4 Spd Cap is that he'll get whomped on by characters he should beat.

Listen up: Cap doesn't just fight agents. He also fights teams of supers. He fights guys with Area Effect attacks. He fights people with VPPs.

I know you're really proud of your 350 point Cap. I know you think he'd beat everybody else's Cap. I know you think it's a superior design, that you've somehow found the magically-overlooked key to success that everyone else has callously overlooked.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. The all-CSL Cap will get his fanny tanned by half the characters I have. All those levels? They don't apply when I throw a car at your hex. You'll have to abort to dive for cover. The real Cap won't care, because he's got a great Speed. When my 6 Spd brick starts throwing large chunks of building, large cars, and hand grenades at you, you'll burn your phases while you dive for cover. And then your DCV will suck.

If you say "But your brick should only have a 3 Spd!" then you've just proven my point. Your 4 Spd Cap just can't compete with a guy with a higher Speed. Game Over.

[Morningstar]

Trebuchet, Champsguy,

Some very good points. Where have you been for the last 100 posts of this thread!? :)

[Rick]

First off, Gary we're now entering the area of concept execution. If I'm a Super Agent normal human being I don't want as a player to have exorbinent amounts of dex. To get a 15 DCV I need a 45 dex...that doesn't fit my concept of normal human being. Yes you can say it's cheeper, it's not bout cheaper it's about concept. Yes the martial artist given all of his levels he needs will not save on the lower Dex and spd limits, most others will though.

Second off, Champsguy. If any of your comments are directed at me go and reread this thread than see what i'm actually talking about. Cap't only needs a 6-7 spd if 5 spd is what is common.

You'll also note that my cap't isn't a 20dex 4spd. That would however invovle actually reading this thread. I also told no one that their brick must be a 3 spd.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
Have you ever actually played a dex 20 spd 4 MA in a 350+ campaign? I've been playing and gaming over 15 years. I believe I know what I'm talking about when I say that this MA won't be competitive.
That's two things that you have yet to convince me of.


Those levels and the normal +2 with martial strike do not work vs ranged attacks! It's a little tiring repeating myself.
Well, if that's tiring, stop. Not counting the fact that you're wrong too. If I use Martial Strike, I got the +2 DCV vs all personal, physical attacks, as well as any CSLs I have put there too. I challenge you to prove the contrary, or else just let it go, man. It's tiring for me too.


I thought this discussion was about what Cap should be, not what you can afford.
It is a discussion about how in concept do you stay if you give your characters ridiculous amounts of DEX, and how to get exactly what you need to obtain the same effectiveness or more.

Cap was merely an exemple. I would make him as I have said, not more even if that was more efficient, which is not the case.

While you're there, why don't you give your "Cap" a 60 STR, Absorption, regeneration, mental powers and desolidification as well? You'll be much more effective. We could call him the Munchkin-Earth Cap.

;)

[Stargazer]

Originally posted by Gary
Batman doesn't merely have 20 dex and 4 spd. If he did, he wouldn't be competitive. He probably has 26-28 dex and 6 spd.

I refuse to believe that Batman is only moderately superior to the typical Dex 14 Spd 3 goon that he fights. He acts at least twice as often, not only 33% more often.

if u think batman as any sort of super habilities then ur Way out of it....
batman is only max human nothing more...but he maximum human in everything (almost)
and u say bats acts twice as often as the goon he fights...think about that...cause the goons he fights normal everyday thugs!!!!!!!! regular joes with a gun or a baseball bat!!! man where have u read ur batman comic???? planet X ???? and when bats has to fight superpowered vilains (normaly with the JLA, or those of his but they are usualy low end super powered) he sometimes is slower and less dexterous..again i his brain!! (and a good dose of CSL and a very good find weakness)
batman can take superman..because he ALWAYS has a plan..again using his brain...not is dex or speed.....

same goes with cap....against norm hell be twice as fast....against superpowered ppl..he uses his brain and experience......then his dex...and usualy fight supers with a team or partner...rarely alone......

[Monolith]

You guys must be right. Cap and Batman are only 20 DEX, 4 SPD characters. Too bad neither one of them can beat up Nighthawk from the Champions; you know, a beginning level non-superpowered superhero. :)

I have only been on the message boards about 10 months and I think I have seen this same NCM argument about 5 times. You would think you could all find something new to argue about once and a while. :cool:

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Players and GMs must recognize that all characteristics are relative within each individual campaign, not on a Cosmic Scale of Characteristics™. If the average team brick is a DEX 11 3 SPD ,then perhaps the martial artists can get by with a 20 DEX 4 SPD. But if the bricks are at DEX 18 SPD 4 then the martial artist needs to be faster. In general, I think a martial artist should be at least 50% faster than a typical brick in the campaign. (...) Superheroes should be amazing athletes, it's part of the genre.

I'm not bound by "genres", I'm bound by concept. There are few things as generic "Bricks" in my campaignd. I've got Speedster Bricks, Mentalist Martial Artists, Animalists E-projs, Scientific Bricks, Shifting M-Artists, M-Artists E-Proj, and many, many more.

I don't tell a player "Look. Your character's obviously a brick. 30 Dex is too high. Please bring that down to 23 max.", but rather "How come your DEX is 30 if you didn't mention he was super agile, nor came with a reasonable science-fantasy cause. Work on that."

Often, the player decide that his hero is mutant or altered. I have no problems with that. This one plays a tiger shifting character? A DEX of 35 may be of order, as well as a high SPD. Another wants to play "a normal guy" with lots of training and pride of his human nature? Yeah, why not.

Is prof Charles Xavier an amazing athlete?

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Champsguy
Yes, you can build a Captain America with only a 20 Str and a 20 Dex and a 4 Spd. This doesn't make him a "better" character than the guy with a 30 Str, 30 Dex, 7 Spd Cap. (...) One of the problems that I have with a 20 Dex, 4 Spd Cap is that he'll get whomped on by characters he should beat. (...) Your 4 Spd Cap just can't compete with a guy with a higher Speed. Game Over.

Hey, all those pts not invested in DEX or SPD did went somewhere, don't you think? Or do you simply think "speedsters" are above all that could be created as characters?


I'm sorry, but you're wrong. The all-CSL Cap will get his fanny tanned by half the characters I have. All those levels? They don't apply when I throw a car at your hex. You'll have to abort to dive for cover. The real Cap won't care, because he's got a great Speed. When my 6 Spd brick starts throwing large chunks of building, large cars, and hand grenades at you, you'll burn your phases while you dive for cover. And then your DCV will suck.
I think you assume too much.

Among other things you assume that Cap's player will play like an ass. If a reasonably intelligent player is playing vs a fast brick surrounded by throwable junk and with no form of cover to impede on his LOS, he will eliminate direct confrontation as an option, don't you think?

However shocking that may seems, it is quite possible that some other character beats Cap, you know...

:rolleyes:

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Monolith
You guys must be right. Cap and Batman are only 20 DEX, 4 SPD characters. Too bad neither one of them can beat up Nighthawk from the Champions; you know, a beginning level non-superpowered superhero. :)
At the same amounts of points, why not? If that Nighthawk of your is well built...

With a difference of 100-200 pts, I highly doubt it.


I have only been on the message boards about 10 months and I think I have seen this same NCM argument about 5 times. You would think you could all find something new to argue about once and a while. :cool:
Well, I hope you're still free to ignore this thread, Living Titan.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
That's two things that you have yet to convince me of.


Well, if that's tiring, stop. Not counting the fact that you're wrong too. If I use Martial Strike, I got the +2 DCV vs all personal, physical attacks, as well as any CSLs I have put there too. I challenge you to prove the contrary, or else just let it go, man. It's tiring for me too.

Read page 35 of the rulebook. It specifically states that the 3 pt CSL can only be applied as DCV vs the same types of attacks for which it could increase OCV. And it has a specific example of a swordfighting martial arts level which can increase DCV in HTH, but not in range combat. It's right there in the rule books. So all 10 of your 3 pt CSLs with MA are worth nothing vs ranged attacks.


Originally posted by Nucleon

It is a discussion about how in concept do you stay if you give your characters ridiculous amounts of DEX, and how to get exactly what you need to obtain the same effectiveness or more.

Cap was merely an exemple. I would make him as I have said, not more even if that was more efficient, which is not the case.

While you're there, why don't you give your "Cap" a 60 STR, Absorption, regeneration, mental powers and desolidification as well? You'll be much more effective. We could call him the Munchkin-Earth Cap.

;)

That's the problem. You somehow think that 30 dex is ridiculous, but 28 str is ok. :rolleyes:

Page 28 of the Champions Universe specifically states that Legendary Humans can reach 30 in physical stats. And they don't come any more legendary than Captain America.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Gary
Read page 35 of the rulebook. It specifically states that the 3 pt CSL can only be applied as DCV vs the same types of attacks for which it could increase OCV. And it has a specific example of a swordfighting martial arts level which can increase DCV in HTH, but not in range combat. It's right there in the rule books. So all 10 of your 3 pt CSLs with MA are worth nothing vs ranged attacks.



That's the problem. You somehow think that 30 dex is ridiculous, but 28 str is ok. :rolleyes:

Page 28 of the Champions Universe specifically states that Legendary Humans can reach 30 in physical stats. And they don't come any more legendary than Captain America.

He's not going to listen, Gary. Its obvious at this point he'd rather ignore the rules and stated genre conventions just so he won't have to admit he's wrong. I've seen these people before.

[Shaun Hendricks]

Originally posted by Starlord
Never played with limits, either. Never had a problem with stat races, either. Even 20 years ago when we were all 13-14 year olds.

I suspect stat escalation it has nothing to do with rules problems, its more of a player/GM maturity problem. ;)

When I role-play via the internet, I play (and GM) without a system at all... the story rules the 'game' as it were. So I agree with the post here, but the ultimate extension of that 'logic' is simple cooperative storytelling. The GM builds the universe, runs the NPC's and the Player runs the protagonist. This works well in solo-player games, but tends to break down with multiple players. Thus the system is needed to act as a comparative restraint method to the players, even if they are incredibly mature. By nature, people (read: players) are competitve with each other.
No, limits aren't necessary, but you still must have SOME kind of limits on the game, be they CV, Points or ceilings of other sorts. You can't have one player build "Docter Dexterity" with CV's in the neighborhood of 20 and someone else build "Miss Manners" who only has CV's in the sub 10 range. These characters can't face the same badguys, can't fight well as a team. As a GM, when you say "I want your CV's between 8-11" you have just set a limit. "Doctor Dex" may end up with an 11 CV and tons of levels of Lightning Reflexes to make up the character conception points, but in the end, you have to have a realistic 'spread' of characters and this requires limits to both the upper and lower end of the stat/power/skill spectrum.

My current ruling philosophy for players is: use as many points as you like, but here's your CV/Power/Skill limits. We've even developed a sophisticated 'balancing' system for these limits so that they can 'slide' around in relation to one another and keep characters balanced between each other. It seems to work really well and also keeps the badguys balanced in relation to the players without much hassle.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Shaun Hendricks
When I role-play via the internet, I play (and GM) without a system at all... the story rules the 'game' as it were. So I agree with the post here, but the ultimate extension of that 'logic' is simple cooperative storytelling. The GM builds the universe, runs the NPC's and the Player runs the protagonist. This works well in solo-player games, but tends to break down with multiple players. Thus the system is needed to act as a comparative restraint method to the players, even if they are incredibly mature. By nature, people (read: players) are competitve with each other.
No, limits aren't necessary, but you still must have SOME kind of limits on the game, be they CV, Points or ceilings of other sorts. You can't have one player build "Docter Dexterity" with CV's in the neighborhood of 20 and someone else build "Miss Manners" who only has CV's in the sub 10 range. These characters can't face the same badguys, can't fight well as a team. As a GM, when you say "I want your CV's between 8-11" you have just set a limit. "Doctor Dex" may end up with an 11 CV and tons of levels of Lightning Reflexes to make up the character conception points, but in the end, you have to have a realistic 'spread' of characters and this requires limits to both the upper and lower end of the stat/power/skill spectrum.

My current ruling philosophy for players is: use as many points as you like, but here's your CV/Power/Skill limits. We've even developed a sophisticated 'balancing' system for these limits so that they can 'slide' around in relation to one another and keep characters balanced between each other. It seems to work really well and also keeps the badguys balanced in relation to the players without much hassle.

Sure thing, but...we still never set ANY limits whatsoever (well, other than the obvious one: total points). The points balance themselves. If you build a guy with 100 DEX in a 350 point game, he still has ALOT of weaknesses. Now metagame-wise, we all agreed to have our schtick and noone was allowed to infringe too much on that. The MA never came too close to the speedster who never infringed on the 'weird powers' guy who never infringed on the straight 'energy projector', etc. Occasionally, we would agree to always allocate a certain number of points to skills/talents/perks.

[Shaun Hendricks]

You guys do realize you are debating make-believe characters, which rely on a great deal of personal perception as to abilities and capabilities, as well as rules to a system which seem to be flavored by the 'author of the moment' and some built in flaws that spawn massive amounts of house rules in many gaming groups.

Is it REALLY worth it to start sniping at each other and making this personal? Dunno about you guys but I'd rather have a bunch of friends with the sytem in common than enemies made by getting technical or devisive.

Just some food for thought... :cool:

[Shaun Hendricks]

Originally posted by Starlord
Sure thing, but...we still never set ANY limits whatsoever (well, other than the obvious one: total points). The points balance themselves. If you build a guy with 100 DEX in a 350 point game, he still has ALOT of weaknesses. Now metagame-wise, we all agreed to have our schtick and noone was allowed to infringe too much on that. The MA never came too close to the speedster who never infringed on the 'weird powers' guy who never infringed on the straight 'energy projector', etc. Occasionally, we would agree to always allocate a certain number of points to skills/talents/perks.

On the surface, that 'seems' to be the case, however, my group have discovered major flaws with the 'total points' acting as a balancer. This doesn't come out as much in playing Super Heroes as it does in other genres, since the Hero System was primarilly designed for Super Heroes. You can still come across problems in total points though. Due to the way the rules are applied and how points are assigned, you can have a great character conception but with no cheap way to build a medium to low utility ability, even if it's central to the concept. You can (and we have found "frequently") end up with characters built on the same points as others yet can't hold a candle to them in combat. It's the old efficiency arguments about which class is most point efficient, and the problem there is, it's very TRUE, there are more efficient classes of character archetypes, and this is because of the cost and point breaks. Therefore, relying on total points as your absolute arbiter of character ability would seem highly suspect to me in an advanced building environment. I'm sure you are using corrective mechanisms, of some kind or another. There's nothing worse than spending hours and hours on building a characer only to find they don't work as intended OR can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
Let me say this again, clearly, it's not as bad in Supers as it is in other genre's, but since I tend to use Hero for other genre's and play few Supers, it's a problem I've had to face often and have discovered that limits on the abilites work FAR better as a balancing scale than point total limits. I can build a 1000 point character that doesn't exceed human normals and has no super powers, and might even be able to fight a low powered super, BUT that doesn't mean the character is inefficient, it just means that they have a greater depth of abilities than even a 350 super. It also means that I forced combat and power limits on them, and it means that other talented normal humans (even in the same party) can be just as useful in combat or max ability as the heavy pointer. So now, to use your logic to it's fullest, the points don't matter, but the end product in abilities do, and those need to balance in order to make the 'team' work. You just seem to have gotten lucky that your players are dialed in well enough as a team that they instinctively build compatable characters. Not everyone has that kind of playing group. ;)
Again, I personally don't require a system at all with a single player or as a single player. With a group, it's my personal preference that I limit ability, not points. I've seen disparagements as far as 130 points and the players fully happy all the way around. Experience is unnecessary since if a character needs an enhancement then I, as the GM, can find a way to get it to them in the course of the game. Disads become what they are meant to be, conception fulfillers, and not just a means to get more points. With the points being thrown out the window, suddenly, the important thing becomes the character conception, motivation and action, rather than the system mechanics or biases/flaws themselves.

This is all opinion, and my own experience I'm sputtering out here. Your mileage may (and probably does) vary... :)

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Shaun Hendricks
You guys do realize you are debating make-believe characters, which rely on a great deal of personal perception as to abilities and capabilities, as well as rules to a system which seem to be flavored by the 'author of the moment' and some built in flaws that spawn massive amounts of house rules in many gaming groups.

As I said before to debate actual stats/abilities for characters you need a baseline or set of ground rules, which just happens to be the established Champions characters. To be fair, I don't think everyone here was specifically arguing character stats. They were using established characters to try to show different concepts at different power levels and different types of game play.


Originally posted by Shaun Hendricks
Is it REALLY worth it to start sniping at each other and making this personal? Dunno about you guys but I'd rather have a bunch of friends with the sytem in common than enemies made by getting technical or devisive.

Just some food for thought... :cool:

You are correct here.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Shaun Hendricks
On the surface, that 'seems' to be the case, however, my group have discovered major flaws with the 'total points' acting as a balancer. This doesn't come out as much in playing Super Heroes as it does in other genres, since the Hero System was primarilly designed for Super Heroes.

snip...


Ah. See, being in the Champions forum I always assume that we're referring to the Supers genre. :)

I never encountered any major problems playing without limits in all my years playing HERO in the supers genre. However, at lower point totals I COMPLETELY agree with you. While I have far less experience playing Fantasy HERO, we did find that strict AP, CV, PD, ED, etc., limits had to be set. My experience is the system starts breaking down around the 200 point and under level. Of course, maybe others had different problems.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Starlord
Now metagame-wise, we all agreed to have our schtick and noone was allowed to infringe too much on that. The MA never came too close to the speedster who never infringed on the 'weird powers' guy who never infringed on the straight 'energy projector', etc.This is exactly how our group does it. Concept and schtick are more important than CVs, defenses or damage dice. The players communicate amongst themselves to avoid stepping on another player's toes. In our campaign, CVs vary from 8 to 15, defenses spread from 12 PD to 34, and SPDs go from 4 to 9. Trust me, nobody feels unimportant or useless if it's being done right.

We also look for ways to make each other look good in combat, rather than trying to outshine the other characters. When 5 or 6 players are all trying to help each other do cool things, everybody has fun. And it leads to a powerful sense of camaraderie and teamwork that has to be experienced to be believed.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
Read page 35 of the rulebook. It specifically states that the 3 pt CSL can only be applied as DCV vs the same types of attacks for which it could increase OCV. And it has a specific example of a swordfighting martial arts level which can increase DCV in HTH, but not in range combat. It's right there in the rule books. So all 10 of your 3 pt CSLs with MA are worth nothing vs ranged attacks.
Well, okay; you're half right. Versus ranged combat, if I can't use M-Strike CSL in DCV, I still can use the manoeuver's defense bonus, plus the shield's CSLs if I use the HTH. That's still a 14 DCV, 18 OCV, as I have stated some posts before. I like those 3-pts levels, but that's not all I got. And the Martial Dodge affects all attacks, so I can put everything in DCV when I'm doing it.

And if I Block/Deflect, I can use all those CSLs (see page 265), because they're in OCV.

(Yeah, the defense rules of those 2 and 3-pts CSLs do surprise me, because they're quite easily bypassed, like buying 5 pts CSL with ½ worth of limitations, but I grant you your point, Milenial Master.)


Page 28 of the Champions Universe specifically states that Legendary Humans can reach 30 in physical stats. And they don't come any more legendary than Captain America.
I guess I won't play in the "Champion Universe" which title means exactly that. Normal humans that can lift 3 520 lbs (14 080 when pushing) off the ground are too much for me. People are quite tough out there. They do not need superheroes, in my humble opinion.

But you know what? One man's meat is another one's poison, mortal.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord
He's not going to listen, Gary. Its obvious at this point he'd rather ignore the rules and stated genre conventions just so he won't have to admit he's wrong. I've seen these people before.

Quite constructive Starlord. Rather than continuing our discussion, you're being an exellent cheerleader. Nucleon is not impressed.

:rolleyes:

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Quite constructive Starlord. Rather than continuing our discussion, you're being an exellent cheerleader. Nucleon is not impressed.

:rolleyes:

The opinion of a person who constantly refers to himself in third person and others as 'mortal' isn't very impressive to me either.

...and I'd think for the 'all-powerful' being you claim to be you'd know that:

A. I've been an active and meaningful participant in this thread
B. Gary is correct about the rules
C. It's 'excellent' with a 'c', not exellent. :p

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
This is exactly how our group does it. Concept and schtick are more important than CVs, defenses or damage dice. The players communicate amongst themselves to avoid stepping on another player's toes. In our campaign, CVs vary from 8 to 15, defenses spread from 12 PD to 34, and SPDs go from 4 to 9. Trust me, nobody feels unimportant or useless if it's being done right.

We also look for ways to make each other look good in combat, rather than trying to outshine the other characters. When 5 or 6 players are all trying to help each other do cool things, everybody has fun. And it leads to a powerful sense of camaraderie and teamwork that has to be experienced to be believed.

I need you to come over and teach my group something.:D
They don't work as a team. There opinoins of the other characters are...low. They think it is funny when some gets punked around. And they all try to out do everyone else(more or less).

Their DEX war started when the Maritlal Artist was slower than the Mage. The mage left and a mentalist and a combat monster showed up. Neither were faster than him, but both were as fast as him, so immediatly he starts buying DEX and Speed. The Brick, tired of being the slowest, bought dex and speed. Slowly everyone has been creeping up the DEX/SPD ladder until we get the group with an average DEX of 28 and an average SPD of 6. It is darn near impossible to use premade anything against them. They punked Mechanon in 2 turns. He just couldn't touch them without spreading so much he didn't do enough damage to stun anyone. So after tonights climactic battle, we are retiring the camgaign and starting a new one where everyone tells me a concept and we decide how to make it. This way we have no DEX war.

John Spencer

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer
I need you to come over and teach my group something.:D
They don't work as a team. There opinoins of the other characters are...low. They think it is funny when some gets punked around. And they all try to out do everyone else(more or less).

Their DEX war started when the Maritlal Artist was slower than the Mage. The mage left and a mentalist and a combat monster showed up. Neither were faster than him, but both were as fast as him, so immediatly he starts buying DEX and Speed. The Brick, tired of being the slowest, bought dex and speed. Slowly everyone has been creeping up the DEX/SPD ladder until we get the group with an average DEX of 28 and an average SPD of 6. It is darn near impossible to use premade anything against them. They punked Mechanon in 2 turns. He just couldn't touch them without spreading so much he didn't do enough damage to stun anyone. So after tonights climactic battle, we are retiring the camgaign and starting a new one where everyone tells me a concept and we decide how to make it. This way we have no DEX war.

John Spencer

Ouch, thats tough.

I think it has to do with respecting the team and, especially, everyone else's character not just your own. That's why we had so much fun and we're able to play and be happy on the same campaign for 6+ years.

[Catacomb]

Don't retire the campaign, just bring it to their level.

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by Catacomb
Don't retire the campaign, just bring it to their level.
Too much work. We play every other week and I still find it hard to find the time to make and tweak enough villians to keep it fresh. It also means I can't run any organization involving agents because they mop the floor with them. The group(of 7 players) have four members with AOE attacks. Another is a mentalist who will drop one mook a phase(more or less). Another usually has 14+ DCV and can two hit a mook. The last WANTS them to shoot him so he can absorb the energy into his endurance reserve.

No, we are starting a new campaign. Three people have characters partially done and the current average DEX is 21. I am much happier with the characters this time around.

John Spencer

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Well, okay; you're half right. Versus ranged combat, if I can't use M-Strike CSL in DCV, I still can use the manoeuver's defense bonus, plus the shield's CSLs if I use the HTH. That's still a 14 DCV, 18 OCV, as I have stated some posts before. I like those 3-pts levels, but that's not all I got. And the Martial Dodge affects all attacks, so I can put everything in DCV when I'm doing it.

And if I Block/Deflect, I can use all those CSLs (see page 265), because they're in OCV.

(Yeah, the defense rules of those 2 and 3-pts CSLs do surprise me, because they're quite easily bypassed, like buying 5 pts CSL with ½ worth of limitations, but I grant you your point, Milenial Master.)

From the FAQ:


Q: If a character performs a Sweep with a Martial Maneuver, do 3-point Combat Skill Levels with Martial Arts apply to the attack?

A: No. The character is performing a Sweep, which isn’t a Martial Maneuver, even if it incorporates a Martial Maneuver in this instance. But he could use a 5-point CSL with HTH Combat.

So those cheapo 3 pt levels can't be used with Sweep vs agents. Interesting.


Q: If a character applies a Combat Skill Level to increase his DCV, do the changes to his DCV last until his next Phase?

A: They last until he decides to switch the CSL to something else — definitely until the next Phase, and possibly longer. However, that doesn’t change what they apply to; a 3-point CSL with swords doesn’t improve a character’s DCV versus arrows, no matter how long it lasts.

More confirmation that 3 pointers with MA don't affect range attacks.


Q: If a character buys a three-point CSL with a single weapon that has both HTH and Ranged uses, can he apply that Level to improve his DCV against any sort of attack?

A: If a character has bought a 3-point CSL with a specific type of weapon (e.g., some 3-point Levels for bonuses with Rapiers), then he could apply that Level to improve DCV against the type of attack (HTH or Ranged) for which he uses the Level in a given Phase. If he applies the Level to improve his OCV with throwing the Rapier in one of his Phases, then in that same Phase he could use some of the Levels to improve his DCV versus Ranged attacks, but not his DCV against HTH attacks. It’s up to the GM to decide whether the character should be allowed to Abort to use his 3-point one-weapon CSLs to provide DCV, but generally the GM should not allow this, since it makes the CSLs too much like 5-point Levels.

So you can't assign the levels with shield to DCV vs range attacks unless you're throwing the shield that phase. And if you're throwing the shield, you don't get the maneuver bonuses for martial strike.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
I guess I won't play in the "Champion Universe" which title means exactly that. Normal humans that can lift 3 520 lbs (14 080 when pushing) off the ground are too much for me. People are quite tough out there. They do not need superheroes, in my humble opinion.

But you know what? One man's meat is another one's poison, mortal.

A man named Paul Anderson had a back lift of 6,270 pounds in 1957.

http://www.payh.org/about.htm

I don't know if this qualifies as lifting in Champions terms, but it's a real life person who got over 3 tons off the ground. I think we can safely say that Cap would be stronger than this guy.

[Morningstar]

Everyone also has to remember we are talking about "normal in a COMIC BOOK universe. Even the gadgeteer science geek looks like an Olympic athlete and an underwear model rolled into one. Normal people die falling down stairs and during baseball spring training drills. Do I even have to bring up the womien?? :)

[Shaun Hendricks]

Originally posted by Starlord
Ah. See, being in the Champions forum I always assume that we're referring to the Supers genre. :)


You have more faith in forum threads than I do sir... :)



I never encountered any major problems playing without limits in all my years playing HERO in the supers genre. However, at lower point totals I COMPLETELY agree with you. While I have far less experience playing Fantasy HERO, we did find that strict AP, CV, PD, ED, etc., limits had to be set. My experience is the system starts breaking down around the 200 point and under level. Of course, maybe others had different problems.

This is very true, the problem is exascerbated at the lower levels. Having said that, it's why I don't mind 'Agents' even up around the 400-500 point mark. This is about James Bond level of skill. In the end, what we've really accomplished by tossing out point maximums is an end to the 'silly disads' and 'limitations for limitations sake' just to bring point costs down. The characters build faster, play better and everyone seems more flexible to charater manipulation due to plot constraints. It makes it feel more like an authored story as well as having many of the trappings of movies/TV perceptions. (You also can enforce the disads a bit harsher and more regularly since the players aren't as worried about overall point balance and that the disads are there because conception has put them there. It also gives me the choice as a GM to give them disads during the campaign if they are using a "Hero Bonus" and not have to give them an ability to counter the added disad cost, thus I don't feel guilty! :) )

I'm toying with the idea of creating a SUPER AGENT VILLIAN that can do just about anything because he's built on unlimited points (that's his ability) yet because his CV's, Skills and 'powers' are down with the players, he's still fightable and can be engaged by the players without them feeling like they are going after Mechanon! :p

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
So you can't assign the levels with shield to DCV vs range attacks unless you're throwing the shield that phase. And if you're throwing the shield, you don't get the maneuver bonuses for martial strike. [/B]

The 4 CSLs with the Shield (if you remember the character I posted) are the 5 pts-type, Gary. They are for use with the Shield Multipower. Which makes your point moot.

You seem all numbers and no spirit, Milenial Master. Once again, not a GM trait. That's the impression that Nucleon gets.

Everybody can find rules and counter-rules that suits his/her current argument. In these case, common sense must rule. If the fact that Blocking and Deflecting does not seem the same move for you for exemple, you should take some distance from the book, and try to make the part of things. Some times the official rules apply, sometime the optional ones are preferable, all in the same campaign.

Comes a time where the book must stop thinking for you.

;)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
A man named Paul Anderson had a back lift of 6,270 pounds in 1957.

I don't know if this qualifies as lifting in Champions terms, but it's a real life person who got over 3 tons off the ground. I think we can safely say that Cap would be stronger than this guy.

Interesting. Let's say it qualifies. Here is how I see it.

6270 lbs is 2850 kg. It takes a STR of 32-33 to move that.

Now, is it believable that Paul Anderson "pushed" (as per the HERO rules) to do that? Is that acceptable?

That would give him a 22-23 STR. The strongest man in the world. That seems okay for Cap.

What do you think?

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord
The opinion of a person who constantly refers to himself in third person and others as 'mortal' isn't very impressive to me either.

...and I'd think for the 'all-powerful' being you claim to be you'd know that:

A. I've been an active and meaningful participant in this thread
B. Gary is correct about the rules
C. It's 'excellent' with a 'c', not exellent. :p

Let it be known here that Nucleon comes here to discuss seriously about lighter stuff, or discuss lightly about serious stuff. Not for a minute does He takes himself too seriously, for He often writes about sterner stuff on other boards under His secret guise. Then he comes here to relax a bit while talking about His favorite Hobby.

And even thought He is haughty, never will he condescend to the level you displayed in that former post of yours. If you disagree, try to be constructive and open about it. If you can't, I suggest you to go somewhere quieter where dissidence will be more sparse. You'll feel better.

Yes, you were meaningful up to there. And Gary is 1-1-1 about the rules so far, even thought "relentless" about the rules would be more apt.

"Starlord" is so much more serious than "Nucleon" for that matter. How would you feel if you were accused of not being serious by someone named "Toto the Clown", eh?

Lastly, English is not Nucleon's first language. So have a care, mortal.

[Stargazer]

it seems, starlord, that u didnt catch Nucleon's way of writing...
wich is basicaly in character...

who cares if he speaks of himslef in the 3rd person or calls others mortals??
it just for theatrical...
and pointing out gramatical errors the way u did to Nukleon is something i find insulting... when u dont know where someone comes from u shouldnt say anything and take it as a typo...
i would very much like to see u post in Nucleon's mother tongue... and see how perfect u write.....and if utake someone's profile that seriously..u defnetly a long vacation.....

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer
I need you to come over and teach my group something.:D
They don't work as a team. There opinoins of the other characters are...low. They think it is funny when some gets punked around. And they all try to out do everyone else(more or less).That is sad. I've played in similar campaigns myself; where the players treat it almost as a wargame or character-design competition rather than as role-playing. :(

I think one of the reasons our group works so well is because we are all friends above and beyond Champions. We go to movies and backyard barbeques with each other even if we're not role-playing. And because we like each other, we want to make sure we're not stepping on anyone's toes. It also doesn't hurt that we all like each other's characters. There is not a single character in our group that I can't say "That's a cool character" and mean it. I would happily play any other hero on our team.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
The 4 CSLs with the Shield (if you remember the character I posted) are the 5 pts-type, Gary. They are for use with the Shield Multipower. Which makes your point moot.

You seem all numbers and no spirit, Milenial Master. Once again, not a GM trait. That's the impression that Nucleon gets.

Everybody can find rules and counter-rules that suits his/her current argument. In these case, common sense must rule. If the fact that Blocking and Deflecting does not seem the same move for you for exemple, you should take some distance from the book, and try to make the part of things. Some times the official rules apply, sometime the optional ones are preferable, all in the same campaign.

Comes a time where the book must stop thinking for you.

;)

At 5 pts per CSL, they lose their biggest advantage over dex which is cheapness. +3 Dex for 6 net pts after factoring the spd savings is much superior.

You were the one deciding that CSLs for some reason were more cost effective than dex. They aren't, unless you house rule them with more capabilities than they really have. I'm sorry you seem to be taking offense that I use the rules as written to support me. We have to have a basis and point of reference when discussing this stuff, and the written rules seems like a good place for me.

Philosophically, there are problems with allowing combined missile deflection/block.

1) Your characters 3 pt levels with MA still can't be used with deflection. Check the FAQ.

2) There are many possible special effects for deflection that don't translate to block. For example, a person who sets up a warp field that teleports the ranged attack harmlessly, or a person who catches the projectile. You would have to go on a case by case basis for which special effects allow the combined block/deflection, and which ones don't.

3) Even if you allow (2), you get a fundamental fairness issue. Why should Cap be allowed the combined maneuver while the person with the gloves of snaring isn't? They're paying the same points for the effect, but Cap gets a huge additional capability that the other guy isn't getting.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Interesting. Let's say it qualifies. Here is how I see it.

6270 lbs is 2850 kg. It takes a STR of 32-33 to move that.

Now, is it believable that Paul Anderson "pushed" (as per the HERO rules) to do that? Is that acceptable?

That would give him a 22-23 STR. The strongest man in the world. That seems okay for Cap.

What do you think?

First, Cap would be stronger than Paul Anderson. That brings him to 25 or so right away if not more. Second, it's quite possible that Anderson "pushed" for less than 10 full points. Heroic level people can push less than Superheroic level people. He may have plausibly pushed for only 5 pts instead.

[Nucleon]

I really hate to do that, but I put this as a mean to get off Cap's case. Here is a ±250 Cap, fresh out of the lab and equiped with a round, mysterious shield (prior to that, during training, he had the "other shield" and a pistol).

It looks terrible I know, but you get the idea.

Cost Char Value
10 STR 20
30 DEX 20
20 CON 20
12 BODY 16
8 INT 18
20 EGO 20
10 PRE 20
3 COM 16
4 PD 8
0 ED 4
10 SPD 4
0 REC 8
0 END 40
0 STUN 36

Cost Powers and Stuff
10,5 Armor 7 PD/ED, 14- act, OIF scale shirt
8 Running +4" (10" total)
17 L-Support; E-Breathe, Safe in int, Heat/Cold/Rads, Immune to all E. Diseases
20 Shield Multipower 40 pts, OAF Shield
U2 Missile Deflection, All R. Attacks, Us.at Range, OAF
U1,7 E-Blast 8d6 vs PD, Lim. Range, OAF
U1,9 HTH Attack +3d6 (7d6 tot), all AP, ½ END HTH, OAF
U1,9 Armor 10 PD/ED, Hardened OAF
13 Generic M-Arts, us/w. Shield; Martial Block, Dodge and Strike
9 CSL; +3 w. Generic M-Arts
8 CSL; +2 w. All Combat, OAF shield
3 1 Level w. Acrobatics, Breakfall and Climbing, related by athletism. (at 14-)
27 Skills; 7 skills at 13-, plus Ps; Illustrator at 14-

Eventually, Cap will evoluate into what we know him for. Taking 550 pts as an objective, Cap would gain;

86 STR, DEX & CON 23, PD & ED 10, SPD 5, END & STUN 50. All bought at NCM cost, and expensive as hell. Its the concept here, fellas.
15,8 A +20 boost on the shield Multipower, described as mastery over its possibilities. It would translate as; -Reflection possibilities, -AP on the E-Blast, -10d6 AP total HTH, -7" of Kb Resistance linked to the Armor slot, plus a new slot; 50% Dam Red vs P- and D-dam, all resistant.
8 Completing the generic M-Arts w. Offensive Strike and Throw, taken relatively early.
10 10 pts worth of Mental Defense, described as Sense of Duty.
5 5 pts worth of Lack of Weaknesses.
21 +7 CSLs with Generic M-arts (10 total)
25 +5 CSLs with Shield Multipower
20 +2 Overall Levels
8 +2 CSLs with all Combat, OAF shield, described as Shield Mastery too. (4 total)
6 4 PSL with the E-Blast (for that bouncing off effect)
3 Another Level with A, B, C. (athletism)
32 A luxury; 2 CSLs w. All combat, usable at range on 8 others (only), Incantations. A team with Cap becomes better (Or should he just Aid DEX...)
60 Exhaustive Skills and Perks, including Defense Manoeuver II. Easily a 50 more (for a total of 600 pts) if such things as contacts, motorbike and Avenger Perks are considered

This is in no superagile or superstrong mutant but a tactician and defense expert, who should hold his own against any form of threat. A top normal in a world of superheroes, a relic.

He is by no way an invincible character, simply because Cap is not. But he is no pushover, as you can see.

I now know that I maybe of the minority here who thinks normals do have a place in a Super world. Well that's allright. The whole point of this exercise is to prove that high DEX is not the only way.

I shall not talk of Cap against in this thread.

(And Gary, I know you disagree, but please indulge me with that wish.)

[Stargazer]

can we talk about batman instead??? just kidding:D

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

I shall not talk of Cap against in this thread.

(And Gary, I know you disagree, but please indulge me with that wish.)

Did you want a critique of the character? If you don't, I'll be happy to drop the thread. :)

[Nucleon]

Okay, this is still about Cap, but gary posted these before I posted my Cap here, so I Nucleon should respond politely.


Originally posted by Gary
At 5 pts per CSL, they lose their biggest advantage over dex which is cheapness. +3 Dex for 6 net pts after factoring the spd savings is much superior.
I think even your Cap should have 5-pts CSLs, or any other CSL for that matter. They must exists for some reason.


You were the one deciding that CSLs for some reason were more cost effective than dex. They aren't, unless you house rule them with more capabilities than they really have. I'm sorry you seem to be taking offense that I use the rules as written to support me. We have to have a basis and point of reference when discussing this stuff, and the written rules seems like a good place for me.

1) Your characters 3 pt levels with MA still can't be used with deflection. Check the FAQ.

Don't be sorry, its alright. Check on page 265, top of the page; I can use these lvls to deflect, as long as they are put in OCV. No FAQ need here.


There are many possible special effects for deflection that don't translate to block. For example, a person who sets up a warp field that teleports the ranged attack harmlessly, or a person who catches the projectile. You would have to go on a case by case basis for which special effects allow the combined block/deflection, and which ones don't.

I doubt your guy in the first exemple also blocks a fist with the same Warp Field. But he may be, you know, if he bought some M-Arts That include a block) "usable w. Warp Field". The person who catches the projectile is closer in this way to my Cap; I would allow it in his case.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
Heroic level people can push less than Superheroic level people. He may have plausibly pushed for only 5 pts instead.

That's an interesting point of view, but I prefer mine.

As I said, you can find rules to do your thing.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
Did you want a critique of the character? If you don't, I'll be happy to drop the thread. :)

Well Gary, it's obvious that each one of us stands by his gun. I doubt I will influence you, as I doubt you will influence me. We're both content with the Status Quo, let's leave it at that.

You can critique my character, of course (you already did that with the blueprint I posted before), but I won't respond to defend or justify it, even if I find the critique interesting.

I guess we will have to agree on one thing about Cap; We Disagree.

Nucleon can live with that.

:cool:

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Stargazer
can we talk about batman instead???
Why bother? Cap is 20 STR, DEX, CON, 4 SPD. Batman is 20 STR, DEX, CON, 4 SPD. Daredevil is 20 STR, DEX, CON, 4 SPD. Fortunately we do get some variance. Nightwing is 15 STR, 20 DEX, CON, 4 SPD and Ironfist is 15 STR, 20 DEX, CON, 4 SPD. :)

The whole point of using an extended characteristic range is so that you can show true variances in the characters (Cap can have a 30 STR, Batman a 25 STR, and Daredevil a 20, for example). If I wanted all the characters to have virtually the same meaningless stats and to go at the exact same time I would just play D&D. :)

[Stargazer]

Monolith..have u read what was to the right of that sentence u quote from me? it said just kidding...

i have no intention of starting on bats...unless someone wants to start a debate ill surely jump in...as im a big batman fan...
but otherwise i wont start a debate on his stats..

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon
That's an interesting point of view, but I prefer mine.

As I said, you can find rules to do your thing.

Your point of view isn't really supported by real life in this case. +10 str represents 4 times the lifting capacity. According to your reasoning, a strong football player who could bench press 500 pounds max, could only bench press 125 pounds under normal circumstances. That's nonsense. The football player could easily bench press 250 or more pounds without much straining.

I personally know people who could bench press 350-400. They would laugh at me if I suggested that 90-100 represents their "true" str.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

I doubt your guy in the first exemple also blocks a fist with the same Warp Field. But he may be, you know, if he bought some M-Arts That include a block) "usable w. Warp Field". The person who catches the projectile is closer in this way to my Cap; I would allow it in his case.

These were just a couple of examples off the top of my head. How about the guy who vaporizes projectiles with his eyebeams? There are so many possible special effects for missile deflection/reflection, that you would have to go through each and every one on a case by case basis which still leaves the fundamental fairness problem of certain special effects getting "bonus" abilities that others don't.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Monolith
Why bother? Cap is 20 STR, DEX, CON, 4 SPD. Batman is 20 STR, DEX, CON, 4 SPD. Daredevil is 20 STR, DEX, CON, 4 SPD. Fortunately we do get some variance. Nightwing is 15 STR, 20 DEX, CON, 4 SPD and Ironfist is 15 STR, 20 DEX, CON, 4 SPD. :)

The whole point of using an extended characteristic range is so that you can show true variances in the characters (Cap can have a 30 STR, Batman a 25 STR, and Daredevil a 20, for example). If I wanted all the characters to have virtually the same meaningless stats and to go at the exact same time I would just play D&D. :)
An excellent, caustic post, Living Titan.

Fortunately, Cap, Batman, Daredevil, Nightwing and Ironfist rarely are in the same playing group. :)

Anyway, characteristics of personnage "genres" tend to ressemble at comparable lvls too. The true difference is in the powers and habilities.

(I loved that one about D&D too...)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Fortunately, Cap, Batman, Daredevil, Nightwing and Ironfist rarely are in the same playing group. :)
Apparently you have never had a gaming group with Patriot, Dragonfist, and Shadow Stalker in it. I have had the Cap, Batman, and Ironfist player combinations several times over the years. :)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary
How about the guy who vaporizes projectiles with his eyebeams? There are so many possible special effects for missile deflection/reflection, that you would have to go through each and every one on a case by case basis which still leaves the fundamental fairness problem of certain special effects getting "bonus" abilities that others don't.

About the case by case basis; Yes, you must.

this guy of yours got to have some Martial Arts that include a Block, and must be using the same medium in both applications. That's why M-Artists often have it easier than, say, E-Projs in this case.

This is but my interpretation, of course.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Monolith
Apparently you have never had a gaming group with Patriot, Dragonfist, and Shadow Stalker in it. I have had the Cap, Batman, and Ironfist player combinations several times over the years. :)

Really? Wow. Did each player had his schtick?

That makes for a campaign in subtilities, I guess.

[Morningstar]

Nucleon,
Iam glad the Cap portion of this is coming to a close but I must ask one thing: Why are you so resistant to suspending your disbelief of this one issue(The maximum human STR, DEX CON being 30) yet accepting of everything else that is insane in this game. Examples:

A normal human, 10STR 2 PD 10 BOD can...

Be hit by a flagpole swungby a superhuman capable of lifting a tank and not only survive but not even be dying!

Be thrown though 3 brick walls and still be alive.

Fall from a 22 story building and still live on average.

There are plenty more but overall we are talking about comics and superheroes and a world where even science geeks look like Mr. Universe and every woman on the planet has natural 38DD's and 5% bodyfat. Why this one thing?

[Stargazer]

Originally posted by Morningstar
.

There are plenty more but overall we are talking about comics and superheroes and a world where even science geeks look like Mr. Universe and every woman on the planet has natural 38DD's and 5% bodyfat. Why this one thing?

what u say about the 38 dd and 5% bodyfat is so true in modern comic book world:)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Morningstar
Nucleon,
Iam glad the Cap portion of this is coming to a close but I must ask one thing: Why are you so resistant to suspending your disbelief of this one issue(The maximum human STR, DEX CON being 30) yet accepting of everything else that is insane in this game (...)overall we are talking about comics and superheroes and a world where even science geeks look like Mr. Universe and every woman on the planet has natural 38DD's and 5% bodyfat. Why this one thing?

These were fine exemples. Champion is but a game, and some fantasy is to being accepted if we play at all. That's why we're here.

l like my normals at 20. Maybe I'm an incurable romantic, but it works fine with the STR table, the running distance, etc.

If you play in a setting that ressemble mine a bit, you are at about the 6th generation of heroes; Mutants, either born of these or otherwise abound; Science can do everything; Magic exists, as well as dimension-hopping beings. In this day and age, there are many, many ways to have powers other than being over-trained. I can play a "Cap" type character with a 30 DEX saying he was brought "beyond human capacity" by a super-serum, instead that "at peak human".

Playing a "real" normal human is a challenge, and a beautifull one. My players that did it take special pride in this fact, just like Cap and Batman do. It's a great concept. I can't imagine a hero vaunting his simple and pure humanity while having scores of 29 in chars and a 6 SPD.

[ZootSoot]

Originally posted by Morningstar
[QUOTENucleon, The "most lifted you are reading is an overhead press and control. Champions strength is "get it off the ground and stagger a few steps". The would more equate to a deadlift which the record is now over 1,000 lbs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1000 lbs? That's 450 kg. STR 21.

You ran into one of the areas of Champions that is a serious flaw. Flaw is the wrong word, decision to make the game playable is more like it.

Strength and SPD are the 2 characteristics totally out of whack with comics, and physics for that matter.

Look at the STR damage, throwing and knockback comparisons and you will see what I mean.
The Nighthawk has a 20 STR and can lift 400gk With his skill levels he can do 10d6 dmg. That is the same as a superhuman that can lift 25 tons! This works for playability but is not very compatible with reality or comics. Even Cap the prime human doesn't hit 1/100th as hard as She-Hulk. It is ok in the comics since the writers have complete control of how the story and combat play out. But in game mechanics you have to equalize to some degree.

Now look at the throwing table: Thor and the Hulk have both thrown large tanks completely out of orbit. Um..what exactly is that STR score? However if you look at there lifting ability on the chart they would stat no higher than 60--80. Hulk can lift 90(over 100 when angry) tons which would be certainly no more than 200 in champions lift. With that 65 STR he could throw a tank 8 meters! Not exactly out of orbit. Grond with his 90 STR could throw it 28 meters. Wohoo!

Look at some of the knockback examples in comics. Hulk punched Juggernaut for miles once(didnt hurt him but how many body dice were rolled? Phoenix and Firelord blasted each other for miles once(not a scratch on either one) Even Wolverine got puched into orbit with escape velocity and survived! Exactly how much dice did he take and how much Body does he have? Even with 75% reduction he would be a dead dead mutant. One of the most classic knockbacks ever was Gladiator hitting Thing when they first met. Try to count the body required for Thing to crash completely through all of those vehicles and the distance he travelled. Dead Rockman. He was stunned and virtually dead but he lived(had his heart restarted by the Torch). And what kind of strength was that for that punch? You would have get thousands of body to do these things.<SNIP>

Marvl consistently and ridiculously underestimates the Strength levels of their characters. It is part of their whle marketing position of having more"human" characters than DC. Feat for feat Marvel characters are just as srong as DC characters and vastly stronger thn the Marvel editorial staff is willing to admit.

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
That is sad. I've played in similar campaigns myself; where the players treat it almost as a wargame or character-design competition rather than as role-playing. :(

I think one of the reasons our group works so well is because we are all friends above and beyond Champions. We go to movies and backyard barbeques with each other even if we're not role-playing. And because we like each other, we want to make sure we're not stepping on anyone's toes. It also doesn't hurt that we all like each other's characters. There is not a single character in our group that I can't say "That's a cool character" and mean it. I would happily play any other hero on our team.

Oh, we're all friends. Heck 4 of us work together. If you put them together then, all the hostility comes out. They actually proved they can work as a team, I gave them PRIMUS agents to run in addition to their normal characters and the PRIMUS agents were teamworking up and down the street. The superheroes were still just fighting single battles, except Spidey.

On topic, how do you subtly convince someone that their comcept is too powergamey for your game? The new characters currently have an average DEX of 21 and speed 5. One guy wants to make a brick and is immediatly talking about DEX 26+ and SPD 6. I want to subtly discourage him, and I'm about as sublte as a lead pipe to the forehead(heeey...that's not a bad Idea!:D )

John Spencer

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Really? Wow. Did each player had his schtick?
Yes, they each have their own schtick. These are the burdens we GMs must bear when 3 of our players all like to play martial arts characters. Fortunately they all do it well. Patriot, the Cap-clone, is the powerhouse martial artist; Shadow Stalker, the Batman-clone, is the streetfighter who uses stun discs and gadgets; Dragonfist, the Ironfist-clone, is the ninja, but watch out for that dragonfist punch!

They are all great role-players too, and it is a blast to watch Shadow Stalker and Dragonfist get into arguments, and then Patriot having to break them up. Now if I could just convince one of them to play an Energy Blaster or Mentalist, my life would be complete. :)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Monolith
Shadow Stalker, the Batman-clone, is the streetfighter who uses stun discs and gadgets;

I thought Shadow Stalker was the troll who uses foul language and gratuitous insults on message boards. ;)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Gary
I thought Shadow Stalker was the troll who uses foul language and gratuitous insults on message boards. ;)
You know, that player uses a lot of foul language at the game too. I wonder if there is a connection? Maybe we will have to take him outback and beat a confession out of him! :)

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Let it be known here that Nucleon comes here to discuss seriously about lighter stuff, or discuss lightly about serious stuff. Not for a minute does He takes himself too seriously, for He often writes about sterner stuff on other boards under His secret guise. Then he comes here to relax a bit while talking about His favorite Hobby.

And even thought He is haughty, never will he condescend to the level you displayed in that former post of yours. If you disagree, try to be constructive and open about it. If you can't, I suggest you to go somewhere quieter where dissidence will be more sparse. You'll feel better.



Just saying "leave" might've been easier. No thanks, I'll stay.


Originally posted by Nucleon
Yes, you were meaningful up to there. And Gary is 1-1-1 about the rules so far, even thought "relentless" about the rules would be more apt.

Oh, I was meaningful until I dared 'cheerlead' against you? YOU mentioned a rule, Gary called you on it. He proved you wrong and you wouldn't listen. He called up the FAQ, then you fall back on "Well, its an optional rule". He calls you on that, you still don't listen. I told Gary not to worry about you, you very clearly just wanted to argue. Now I see above, after YOU argued rules with him point-for-point for the past 3 pages, you (quite hypocritically) accuse HIM of relying too much on the rules. Whatever.


Originally posted by Nucleon
"Starlord" is so much more serious than "Nucleon" for that matter. How would you feel if you were accused of not being serious by someone named "Toto the Clown", eh?


Yes...but I don't hide behind the excuse, "I'm debating serious matters IN CHARACTER.", just so I can be pretentious and condescending to people.


Originally posted by Nucleon
Lastly, English is not Nucleon's first language.
That's why I used the 'funny, sticking out tongue' smiley. It wasn't a serious retort.


Originally posted by Nucleon
So have a care, mortal.

:rolleyes: Or what? You blast me with Nucleonic energy?

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Stargazer
it seems, starlord, that u didnt catch Nucleon's way of writing...
wich is basicaly in character...

who cares if he speaks of himslef in the 3rd person or calls others mortals??
it just for theatrical...
and pointing out gramatical errors the way u did to Nukleon is something i find insulting... when u dont know where someone comes from u shouldnt say anything and take it as a typo...
i would very much like to see u post in Nucleon's mother tongue... and see how perfect u write.....and if utake someone's profile that seriously..u defnetly a long vacation.....

Careful there, Stargazer. This post constitutes 'cheerleading' according to Nucleon. He might be offended.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer
On topic, how do you subtly convince someone that their comcept is too powergamey for your game? The new characters currently have an average DEX of 21 and speed 5. One guy wants to make a brick and is immediatly talking about DEX 26+ and SPD 6. I want to subtly discourage him, and I'm about as sublte as a lead pipe to the forehead(heeey...that's not a bad Idea!:D )

John Spencer

I would ask him what he thinks is important about his character. A brick should be the strongest/toughest on the team. Ask him how he'd feel if 2 other guys wanted higher STR than him. Then he'd have nothing to stand out. Remind him that everyone will have the most fun if EVERYONE is happy with their characters. You can't 'have it all' when playing on a team.

Also, try a slight limitation like forcing everyone to have a certain amount of points spent on noncombat skills/talents/perks...say 30-50. Make sure you bring up situations where they can use some of those skills/talents/perks in the game also. With 50 less points to spend, your brick will worry more about his STR, defenses, and a few 'brick tricks' before he worries about that DEX and SPD.

If all else fails, THEN hit him with the lead pipe. He's a brick...so he can take it. :D

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord
Or what? You blast me with Nucleonic energy?
Maybe Nucleon Will just Alter his Moleculo-Cosmic structure as to be impervious to your Raging Fist of Flame, Starlord.

;)

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Maybe Nucleon Will just Alter his Moleculo-Cosmic structure as to be impervious to your Raging Fist of Flame, Starlord.

;)

Eh. I'm all hot air anyway. Obviously playing your way has worked for you...that is what is important. :cool:

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord
Obviously playing your way has worked for you...that is what is important. :cool:

I'll give you one better; when I come here, I mostly play by the system but you should see our extensive list of house rules.

:o

I guess it all begin when first playing the game with gamers that made many rules errors, some 10-12 years ago. We learned the rules while playing, but were not ready to let go the way things worked before we knew the correct rule. Then there's the broken stuff. And the supplements (Ninja Hero had a big influence.)

I don't know at which extent seasoned HERO players use optional or house rules, or if the majority play in the most orthodox manner possible.

:confused:

[Jeff T.]

Interrupting this thread for a special announcement:

Just noticed this...Happy Birthday, Morningstar.:)

My b-day was yesterday...what a coincidence.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. :D

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Nucleon
I'll give you one better; when I come here, I mostly play by the system but you should see our extensive list of house rules.

:o

I guess it all begin when first playing the game with gamers that made many rules errors, some 10-12 years ago. We learned the rules while playing, but were not ready to let go the way things worked before we knew the correct rule. Then there's the broken stuff. And the supplements (Ninja Hero had a big influence.)

I don't know at which extent seasoned HERO players use optional or house rules, or if the majority play in the most orthodox manner possible.

:confused:

I'm weird too. My two main games are HERO and D&D. For HERO, I've almost exclusively played by the rules. Very strict.

For D&D, almost everything was optional. Things would change from week to week almost. :eek:

[Morningstar]

Thanks Starlord! I didn't even know I poste dthat info! 37 today! 17 seems like yesterday. :eek:

[Hermit]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer


On topic, how do you subtly convince someone that their concept is too powergamey for your game? The new characters currently have an average DEX of 21 and speed 5. One guy wants to make a brick and is immediatly talking about DEX 26+ and SPD 6. I want to subtly discourage him, and I'm about as sublte as a lead pipe to the forehead(heeey...that's not a bad Idea!:D )

John Spencer

Hmm, if I recall, Skill Levels in HTH can be used to up the damage on your dice. Dangle that carrot in front of him as you reccomend it over the Dex and see if he bites. Might also see if he has a 'Brick Trick' he finds really neat, and dangle it instead of the 6 SPD. Even if you grant it as a Naked Advantage that can be used on his STR.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Morningstar
Thanks Starlord! I didn't even know I poste dthat info! 37 today! 17 seems like yesterday. :eek:
No kidding.

Nucleon just turned 37 ye...centuries old last thursday. Horse of Fire and Taurus Constellation, right?

Happy Birthay, Morningstar.

[Morningstar]

Originally posted by Morningstar
Thanks Starlord! I didn't even know I poste dthat info! 37 today! 17 seems like yesterday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No kidding.

Nucleon just turned 37 ye...centuries old last thursday. Horse of Fire and Taurus Constellation, right?

Happy Birthay, Morningstar.[QUOTE]

Thanks Nucleon. The relatives just left. They bring food instead of money when you are an adult and anything that they could buy you within reason you can buy yourself. 17 was more fun for birthdays. :eek: I can't complain, back then I might have to save up to buy a game book. :)

[Stargazer]

Happy b-day to all of you :D
oh and btw..Nucleon...i still owe ya a slurp for your birthday present :P

[Morningstar]

Happy b-day to all of you
oh and btw..Nucleon...i still owe ya a slurp for your birthday present :P

[QUOTE]


That sounds bad. You might want to rephrase that Stargazer. :D

[Gary]

Hey, no fair! I'm gone for a day and peace breaks out???

What happened to my daily flame war? ;) :p :D

[Morningstar]

Hey, no fair! I'm gone for a day and peace breaks out???

What happened to my daily flame war?

[QUOTE]

I think it is just a one day cease fire for birthdays.:) We will try to bring up something controvertial tomorrow.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Stargazer
(...)btw..Nucleon...i still owe ya a slurp for your birthday present :P

then by Morningstar
That sounds bad.
Man, you have no idea.

When it's your bithday, this animal grabs you by the head and licks half your face with one big, wet slurp.

He may not have that much reach, but once he grabs you, you can just close your sense and wait for this terrible ordeal to pass.

Plus, he never forget birthdays.

:(

[Stargazer]

FEAR ME IMMORTALS!!!!!!!!! MWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA