Ladies Fight Out: Invisible Woman VS Wonder Woman

[Hermit]

Cosmic Irradiation vs Amazonian Might
"Engergy Projector" vs "Brick"
Blonde vs Brunette

However you want to word it, these ladies are both powerful. I know some will ask why I didn't list She Hulk instead of Sue for this, but I notice that Mrs Richards doesn't always get her due and besides, she's very creative with her powers so the mightier amazon would surely have a challenge.

Assuming the usual comic book set up for a reason to fight...
Who do you think would win?

[Lord Liaden]

This is a tough call. Both of these ladies have lots of power and plenty of experience. I guess it would come down to whether the Invisible Woman's force fields could keep Wonder Woman's blows from connecting. Susan has stood up to some very formidable customers, but lately Diana's writers have been pushing her strength toward Superman's level. IIRC Mrs. Richards wasn't able to withstand the strength of Gladiator, Marvel's answer to Superman. So, if that parallel holds, and if WW were to hit IW full force at the start of the battle, Sue should go down quickly.

If Wonder Woman can't broach those force fields, or doesn't take Invisible Woman out hard and fast, she's pretty well toast. To my knowledge Princess Diana has no special senses to enable her to find an invisible opponent; Susan should be able to outflank her and strike from surprise. I'm also pretty sure that Wonder Woman still has to breathe, so would have no defense against Susan's trick of surrounding an opponent's head in an airtight force field. And WW's great equalizer, the Golden Lasso, wouldn't help much against the Invisible Woman even if Diana could spot her - Sue's field would keep the lasso from ever getting near her.

[gewing]

You beat me to every point!

Except for the "Sue got really mad and expanded a force field inside her lungs..." EWWWW!


I'd rather think of a charity pudding match...

Imagine a forcefield expanding inside the costume... Never mind it is very late. ;) I apologize to anyone I have offended, or anyone I have made break out in a sweat. ;)





Originally posted by Lord Liaden
This is a tough call. Both of these ladies have lots of power and plenty of experience. I guess it would come down to whether the Invisible Woman's force fields could keep Wonder Woman's blows from connecting. Susan has stood up to some very formidable customers, but lately Diana's writers have been pushing her strength toward Superman's level. IIRC Mrs. Richards wasn't able to withstand the strength of Gladiator, Marvel's answer to Superman. So, if that parallel holds, and if WW were to hit IW full force at the start of the battle, Sue should go down quickly.

If Wonder Woman can't broach those force fields, or doesn't take Invisible Woman out hard and fast, she's pretty well toast. To my knowledge Princess Diana has no special senses to enable her to find an invisible opponent; Susan should be able to outflank her and strike from surprise. I'm also pretty sure that Wonder Woman still has to breathe, so would have no defense against Susan's trick of surrounding an opponent's head in an airtight force field. And WW's great equalizer, the Golden Lasso, wouldn't help much against the Invisible Woman even if Diana could spot her - Sue's field would keep the lasso from ever getting near her.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by gewing


Except for the "Sue got really mad and expanded a force field inside her lungs..." EWWWW!




Yuck.

Yeah, usually that Code Vs Killing would prevent that, but then again, Mind Control is one of the big 'excuses' for these battles.

[gewing]

OR if she thought she was dealing with a robot the way she did it to one of dooms robot duplicates.

On the other hand, if WW smacked reed in the back of the head at full force, the effects could be pretty grim. Sue's retaliation might be worse.


Originally posted by Hermit
Yuck.

Yeah, usually that Code Vs Killing would prevent that, but then again, Mind Control is one of the big 'excuses' for these battles.

[death tribble]

Wonder Woman.

[Glen Sprigg]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
If Wonder Woman can't broach those force fields, or doesn't take Invisible Woman out hard and fast, she's pretty well toast. To my knowledge Princess Diana has no special senses to enable her to find an invisible opponent; Susan should be able to outflank her and strike from surprise. I'm also pretty sure that Wonder Woman still has to breathe, so would have no defense against Susan's trick of surrounding an opponent's head in an airtight force field. And WW's great equalizer, the Golden Lasso, wouldn't help much against the Invisible Woman even if Diana could spot her - Sue's field would keep the lasso from ever getting near her.

Actually, WW is probably the best tracker/huntress in DC; she was gifted with the skill of Artemis, goddess of the hunt, when she was born/created. She was able to track the Cheetah in their first appearance by listening for her heartbeat. I'd say she'll be able to find Mrs. Richards without too much difficulty. As for whether or not she can get through Sue's force field...

WW is pretty much a distaff Captain America-Superman combo; not only does she have power rivalling Supes, but she is also a trained warrior, one of the finest in the world. If Cap can figure out how to get to Sue Richard, Diana can do it too.

Glen

[starblaze]

True, this would be sort of a tough one. Diana is very strong but I remember a FF cartoon where Sue was turned into Malice and defeated the Thing rather easily. I think if she could keep WW away from her long enough Sue could use enough of her versatality to take Diana down, but once the Amazon got close enough she would take down Sue rather easily.

That is my judgement.

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by Hermit
Yuck.

Yeah, usually that Code Vs Killing would prevent that, but then again, Mind Control is one of the big 'excuses' for these battles.

Sue doesn't need mind control as an excuse, threaten her child or husband and that code vs killing goes right out the window. She gets ruthless when it comes to that.

[Nucleon]

I Just voted for the wrong one. I punched WW when I really meant Sue. Sorry for messing up.

Sue have truly innovative powers. I always saw her confined in a defensive role, yet she may be the only FF who could take on Doom alone. She may be overlooked (bad pun :rolleyes: ) when faced to the much more colorful amazon, though.

Nucleon feels sorry for Diana. Her supermanesque powers is what the FF face all year long while the Invisible Girl's unique. The time she would come up with a plan would be too late.

[keithcurtis]

Who needs to win to advance the story?

Keith "only thing that matters" Curtis

[Agent.0.Fortune]

I think their powers are too differnt to make this a matched battle. On one hand, if WW lands one punch the fight is over. On the other, it would be extremely difficult for WW to land that punch (between invisibility, flight, and force field).

BTW i don't follow DC, but I noticed that WW can fly now, that and her strength got a huge boost, when did that happen?
DC's shortman syndrom is also annoying, Their iconic characters are so cosimicly overpowered that they all have to suffer from alzhiemers syndrome (and forget half their powers) to put together a story arc. "Gee, superman, that was a great idea to use cold breath to freeze the nuclear device slowing the timing mechanism, giving you enough time to use your heat vision to degrade the plutonium enough that you were able to contain the blast inside your supercape. BUT why didn't you just throw it into space with your super strength?"

[SuperPheemy]

Invisible Girl vs Invisible Jet!

Myself, I give it to Wonder Woman. In order for Sue to win, she has to ensure that a lot of her indirect tactics work. Force fields cutting off oxygen, while remaining invisible, and holding off WWs superstrength. Whereas Wonder Woman only needs to get one solid shot in through the force field.

[TaxiMan]

I go for Wonder Woman. She's hot!

The idea of watching them fight is cool too.

[TheEmerged]

First, I have to get the "depends entirely on who is writing this/whose book the fight is occuring in" cavaet out of the way.

I'll assume we're using the current versions of both characters -- which has both of them pretty much as powerful as they've ever been.

One key metric is the Juggernaut test; Wonder Woman goes toe-to-toe with him during one of the Access crossovers -- and I'm unaware of Sue ever facing him. Of course, Wondie loses to Storm in the main Access series, but this was determined by an (ignorant) vote and is pretty seriously out of whack.

From where *I* type, it looks like Wondie has 3 key advantages -- Raw striking power, super speed, and senses (the whole "hearing her heartbeat" thing). Having said that, the extent of the second and third advantages is severely open for debate, having varied wildly.

As is always the case when dealing with a super-speedster against a "normal", the bottom-line difficulty is that Wondie could concievably take Sue out before Sue is really in the fight. That is why I voted for Wondie.

HOWEVER -- if Sue survives those first moments things get interesting. I can't say I've read enough FF to accurately gauge the power of her Telekinesis (and let's face it, that's really what her "Invisible Force Fields" thing really is) -- the MSHAG Roster Book pegs it at 15 compared to Juggy's 19 Strength, but the MSHAG ratings have always seemed a little dodgy to me. Seems to me that at best Sue can slow Wondie down unless Sue is prepared to get lethal...

...or perceptive, and that's the main reason things get interesting. There have been a number of odd throw-aways in the Wonder Woman comic that imply the post-Crisis Wondie may actually have the TV version's Focus limitation in relation to the belt/girdle. Wondie has always been focus-dependent even before this; if Sue realizes this and has a chance to exploit it the battle turns in her favor very quickly.

Unfortunately, what at one point would have been Sue's best option (telekinetically tying Wondie in her own lasso -- post-crisis we've never seen any references to Wondie commanding her lasso) has been retconned into being nearly useless (the lasso is just a conduit of Wondie's own power now and likely couldn't be used against her).

That brings us back to lethality. Sue is sharp enough to realize Wondie uses her bracers for defense and is skilled enough to remove them telekinetically given a chance (insert superspeed related crack here) -- and brutal enough to go for lethal attacks if she's been pressed enough to go this far. We've also seen Wondie choked by an effect Sue could easily mimic, again if she gets the chance.

But at the end of the tape, I can't get passed the "if she ges the chance/opportunity" statements.

[MarkusDark]

I saw a comic of the FF when they were being attacked by flying brain creatures. Sue looked at one, put a VERY small force bubble inside of it and then expanded it "BANG!". Now, to put that same tactic to anyone who is within visual range? Sue would win.

I heard her threaten people before. "Please, Doom, think. Just imagine what I could do to you with my powers if you REALLY made me mad."

I assume that these contests involve a no holds bar, win at any cost type of fight.

[Agent.0.Fortune]

Originally posted by MarkusDark
I heard her threaten people before. "Please, Doom, think. Just imagine what I could do to you with my powers if you REALLY made me mad."
I beleive this is called a bluff.

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Agent.0.Fortune
I beleive this is called a bluff.

Kill her child - see if she's bluffing. Doom didn't move nor respond. He let her walk away.

[William Bushway]

Just remember, that human musculature is designed to exert force is certain specific directions. There are ways that Sue could wrap Diana in forcefields that would deny Diana the leverage she needs to exert her strength to its full potential. Just a thought...

[Super Squirrel]

I voted for Wonder Woman because she is visible more for me to see. :D

[Enforcer84]

I read all the posts and while Sue has grown into a resourceful and flexible combatant, I think Diana's warrior training and experience would allow her to defeat Sue.

[Gary]

I have a question about Sue's "bubble around head" or "forcefield expanding inside body" attacks. Does she need to make a to hit roll? I believe that WW's DCV is much higher than Sue's OCV...

[SuperPheemy]

Originally posted by MarkusDark
Kill her child - see if she's bluffing. Doom didn't move nor respond. He let her walk away.

How do you kill Franklin Richards anyway? The kid is a walking, talking plot device that can do anything. Without limits.

It's one of my problems with the FF over the years, editors and writers tend to forget what resources the Richards' have available. Someone comes up with an idea to show Sue's "dark side" and takes the lazy way to threaten her ("we'll put her kid in danger") without considering what her kid can do.

It was like the Beyonder being revealed as an immature Cosmic Cube, or Victor Von Doom having been a robot throughout the Secret Wars. Lazy continuity wrenches... lazy lazy lazy...

[Hermit]

Yup. Threaten Franklin and he might pop you off into an alternate universe where your very nature is warped beyond your fans recognition ;)

[Morningstar]

Since I do not read Wonder Woman regularly, and she has apparently increased her power massively lately. I will have to defer to Wizard Magazine for my take on her. Since she is apparently now strong, fast and tough enough to give Thor and Superman tough fights, she is far too powerful for Sue Storm. I like Sue and feel she is an underused character who could potentialy be much more powerful and versatile.
Some things stick out in my mind though.

1. Gladiator beat through her shield in no time at all.
2. The Hulk was capable of beating down her shield eventually as well and she wasn't capable of mounting any offense while trying to maintain the shield against these very powerful assaults.

Both of these incidents happened with the rest of the FF there for support as well and it didn't help her. I would have to say with Wonder Woman's power level up in that category, and Sue alone, it would be a wipeout.

Sue has gotten better lately with martial arts training from Iron Fist and learning to form her Invisible Force into weapons(she suprised Iron Fist with a smack from an invisible staff) but against a super fast, super strong, super tough and expert trained fighter it wouldn't help.

[Morningstar]

"It was like the Beyonder being revealed as an immature Cosmic Cube, or Victor Von Doom having been a robot throughout the Secret Wars. Lazy continuity wrenches... lazy lazy lazy..."

SO SO TRUE.

I am glad I am not the only one who is disturbed by revisionist history that makes the past stories (often great ones) meaningless or completely impossible because the company didn't want to think its way into its new direction or idea.[I]

[Kevin Scrivner]

In the comics, I've seen Wonder Woman wig out, and I've seen Sue Ricahrds lose it. Much as I admire the amazing Amazon, I think she may be in trouble.

[Daryl]

If Wonder Woman can find her plane after she's forgotten where she's parked it, she can find Sue.

--d

[Rage]

Originally posted by Daryl
If Wonder Woman can find her plane after she's forgotten where she's parked it, she can find Sue.

--d


I thank the lord that she can fly without a silly invisable contraption now.

[bubba smith]

susie'd borrow a bit from her friend ben grimm and get insome clobberin' time at diana's expense

[DrunkonDUty]

I vote for Sue but, hey, it's a close all. The important thing is we get Russell Meyer to direct the fight scene.

[wcw43921]

I vote for Sue but, hey, it's a close all. The important thing is we get Russell Meyer to direct the fight scene.

That'll take a bit of comic book magic to pull off--Meyer died a little over four years ago. :(

Hasn't Wonder Woman always been really strong? The DC Heroes RPG rated her as being strong enough to pick up Mount Everest and throw it "35 feet." That was pre-crisis. And I don't care how bulletproof your bracelets are, you need to have strong muscles and nigh-unbreakable bones--not to mention lightning-fast speed and reflexes--to deflect bullets with them.

Now if I were Sue, I wouldn't just put up a force shield and expect it to withstand Diana's blows--I'd wait for her to swing, then use my force field like a TK-grab, then throw her judo style to the ground. Of course, Wonder Woman would get right up again, having been trained as a warrior for thousands of years. Combine that with all her other powers and talents, and while the Invisible Woman could put up a good fight, she would eventually fall to Hippolyte's daughter.

Now if the rest of the Fantastic Four were with Sue, it might be a different story. Time and again it's been proven that as powerful as they are individually, the FF are at their mightiest when they stand together. But in the above poll--I voted for Wonder Woman.

[casualplayer]

This thing is so freakin' old it's got Morningstar posts! And it's clear proof who is the pollmeister of the HERO Boards, the winnah and still champeen, Hermit!

I would give it to whichever one of the ladies was in their Mentalcase mode. They are each arguably the most powerful and resourceful female of their respective comic houses, maybe even the most powerful and resourceful period. Most people who have responded have neglected WW's ego whip, her golden lasso. Most have neglected that Reed provides the strategy but Sue provides the tactics. This would be a prolonged and hard-fought battle.

[Matt the Bruins]

I have to give it to Sue based on FF 249-250. In her fights with Marvel's Superman equivalent, it took multiple blows from Gladiator to overwhelm her force field and knock her out, and she was later able to hit him hard enough with a force field to knock him out with one blow and win the final fight. Diana might punch as hard as Gladiator, but she's nowhere near as resistant to attacks unless she can block with her bracelets, and it's pretty hard to block an invisible attack that can come at you from any direction. Sue wins unless she gets taken down immediately before she has a chance to bring her force fields into play.

[Marketeer]

Well, since the Threadcromancy has already taken hold...


I think this one comes down to which character more consistently can swing "above her weight class", as it were. Not so much for its own sake, but simply because that establishes who is more able to adapt to a super-level battle.

In that regard, I think Diana edges out Sue. Both characters, over their long histories, have had moments where they use their skills and abilities in innovative, resourceful ways.

Where I think WW gets the nod is that more often than Invisible Woman, WW gets moments where she is the one coming up with the insight or plan that swings a battle.

Both characters have shown, time and again, that they can carry their weight, or execute a plan from Reed or Bruce. Both have also come up with on-the-spot tactical solutions in their respective titles.

But in terms of coming up with the epiphany that swings the team fights, Diana seems a little bit more "with it", and I think that puts her in a league above Sue.

[Metaphysician]

The important question is "Does Diana KO Susan before she can raise shields or turn invisible"?

Because if she does, well that's that. If she *doesn't*, she suddenly has to deal with a target she can't see, whose shielded by force fields she can't readily break, and can do crap like sticking a force sphere in her throat until she passes out. If she's feeling really nasty, she can coat her entire force field with spikes and blades, and then fill whatever the arena is with similar, all invisible.

[Hyper-Man]

I have to give it to Sue based on FF 249-250. In her fights with Marvel's Superman equivalent, it took multiple blows from Gladiator to overwhelm her force field and knock her out, and she was later able to hit him hard enough with a force field to knock him out with one blow and win the final fight. Diana might punch as hard as Gladiator, but she's nowhere near as resistant to attacks unless she can block with her bracelets, and it's pretty hard to block an invisible attack that can come at you from any direction. Sue wins unless she gets taken down immediately before she has a chance to bring her force fields into play.

That line of reasoning hinges somewhat upon Sue's invisibility powers working against Diana. There was a recent thread where it was pointed out that Diana currently has the ability to see through any illusion (the example was Plastic-Man in the otherwise perfect form of one of a pair of lamps). The ability is apparently magical in nature so arguably could apply vs. Sue's ability as well. If that's the case it's basically a fight between Diana and a limited Green Lantern type character which I think Diana comes out on top.

[Marketeer]

It also depends on to what extent each character is allowed to use her powers to their maximum capacity.

In theory/concept, Sue could do some nasty things with force fields inside Diana's body.

At the same time, in theory/concept, Diana can move at supersonic speeds and simply kill Sue in one punch, faster than Sue can see/react.

Each of the two characters has her own "power scale", is it low-end WW vs. high-end Invisible Woman? High-end both?

Oddly, I think the more you keep it on the low end of each, the more of a chance Sue has. If you go to full fledged high-powered Justice League Wonder Woman, I do not think Sue has any real chance, regardless of how pragmatic she is willing to fight--Wonder Woman is the first lady of comics for good reason.

[Hugh Neilson]

A lot of posters are hanging their hats on "Sue turns invisible and WW can't find her". A not so old story arc has WW intentionally blinding herself so she can take on the mythological Medusa without risk of staring into her eyes. She holds up quite well completely blind.

Sue's invisibility has been long established to be against sight only (IR picks her up, for example). If WW can operate with limited to no reduction in effectiveness when blinded, I don't see her being largely hampered by Invisibility.

But the answer will always come down to "who wrote the story and what result did they want?" Seal WW up in a skintight FF bubble. Now she can't breathe, so all Sue needs to do is stay out of her way. Or WW gets a shot in and Sue's KO'd.

[Grimble]

50 Kwatloos on the invisible one...

Don't forget the invisible part of the Invisible womans powers. Even if Dianna can bust through a cosmic level ff, she still has to know where to punch/toss lasso. Plus, Sue can put up more than one ff at a time. One could surround Wonder Woman and another could envelope herself. And hey, why not a bunch of razor sharp invisible walls and projections inbetween the 2. Then just keep shrinking the ff WW is in until she stops screaming...:eg:

[Vox]

In a fairly recent story, the modern Wonder Woman fought against nearly the entire JLA after having blinded herself to fight Medusa. She was specifically proving that she could still serve despite her blindness. She had no problem relying on her other senses, even to the point of deflecting a bullet fired by Superman.

The invisibility is a complete non-factor when her hearing is good enough for her to take the Flash out when she's blind...

~Gabriel

[bubba smith]

sue could use her force fields as cesti[plural of cestus]

[mirage]

o

[Nagisawa Takumi]

I chose Wonder Woman. Although I personally say it would be a close call.

Ironically, I think that Marvel's Gladiator SHOULD NOT be used as a benchmark, as he can FLY THROUGH THE CENTER OF A SUN UNSCATHED!

Supes can't do that, at this time, and the only reason WW is a threat to him, is because she's powered by 'Magic', which he's vulnerable to.

YMMV.

[Split Decision]

These two women are at vastly different power levels, even taking into account that Sue is one of the premiere super-fighters in the MU. Diana's speed and strength would crush Sue before she could get her force field up in the first place.

[Vox]

Supes can't do that, at this time

Snip.

That's not really true. As recently as IC, Superman flew through the heart of a RED sun...something that he's particularly vulnerable to. And all it did was deplete his powers, owing to the red sun's radiation. The heat and pressure didn't seem to be an issue.

~Gabriel

[The Main Man]

Wonder Woman.

[CrosshairCollie]

Invisible Woman. You can't hit what you can't see, Sue's forcefields are tougher than WW can break through, and last I checked, WW still has to breathe, so all she has to do is the 'bubble around the head' trick, turn invisible, and wait it out.

[Kenn]

You can't hit what you can't see

Unless you can detect what you can't see with your other senses. Wonder Woman was blinded for a time through part of Rucka's run on the book. Didn't slow her down to terribly much.


Sue's forcefields are tougher than WW can break through.

An unsupported supposition. Diana has done reasonably well against Lantern constructs.


and last I checked, WW still has to breathe

Magic earrings. Seriously.


WONDER WOMAN.

[Matt the Bruins]

I definitely think Diana would be able to track by other senses well enough to negate the effectiveness of Sue's personal invisibility. I'm less inclined to think that would totally compensate for dealing with force field constructs that can take any shape Sue can imagine, have no scent, and may be able to move faster than the sound their passage through air might make.

[Vulcan]

I think the answer on this one is literally 'it depends.'

Wonder Woman has a lot of advantages, and in a straight-up superheroine fight, I think she'd win.

Let Sue think there's a serious threat to Reed or Franklin, though, and her more lethal (and indirect/nnd does body) options come into play. WW would not be able to cope with those so cavalierly...

[Lord Liaden]

Vulcan raises a good point. A desperate Susan Richards is a very dangerous opponent, who's liable to trot out all the potentially-lethal applications of her force field that she normally holds back.

[Balabanto]

Invisible Woman. Hands down.

Wonder Woman has no special senses.

Wonder Woman needs to breathe.

Wonder Woman is trapped in an impenetrable force wall, Sue seals it after all the air is telekinetically removed, and waits for Diana to stop holding her breath.

Game Over.

[Hyper-Man]

...
Wonder Woman has no special senses.

...


Uh no.


Actually, you'd be mistaken: ;)

See the attached picture on that post that's worth a 1000 words.

[Log-Man]

Whether or not WW can sense Sue is irrelevant. Sue almost never turns invisible in combat anymore.

[Bloodstone]

Vulcan raises a good point. A desperate Susan Richards is a very dangerous opponent, who's liable to trot out all the potentially-lethal applications of her force field that she normally holds back.

Or an equally desperate Wonder Woman snaps Sue's neck while moving at speeds so fast that only the Flash and Superman have an opportunity to even react...

[Vulcan]

When did Wonder Woman become a female clone of Superman? :confused:

[Vox]

When did Wonder Woman become a female clone of Superman? :confused:

They've tracked each others' abilities pretty consistently over the years. When Superman was just a strong guy who could lift cars and jump over a building, that was Wonder Woman's strength level too. During the Silver Age, when he was pushing planets, she lagged a bit behind...but not too far. They both gained myriad additional abilities, at roughly the same pace in fact. And nothing has really changed about their parity since COIE, either.

~Gabriel

[Bloodstone]

When did Wonder Woman become a female clone of Superman? :confused:

Since William M. Marston put pen to paper in 1941 ;)



"In a 1943 issue of The American Scholar, Marston wrote:

“Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.

Vox pretty much hit it on the head, but IMX people that grew up reading DC comics during the Silver age seem to expect Diana to be significantly weaker than the Man of Steel.

But in their Golden age forms, they were roughly on par. With the post Crisis reboots they were again roughly equal, though Superman gained in power more quickly.

In their modern incarnations, Diana is in some ways even more powerful than Clark...

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Since William M. Marston put pen to paper in 1941 ;)



Vox pretty much hit it on the head, but IMX people that grew up reading DC comics during the Silver age seem to expect Diana to be significantly weaker than the Man of Steel.

But in their Golden age forms, they were roughly on par. With the post Crisis reboots they were again roughly equal, though Superman gained in power more quickly.

In their modern incarnations, Diana is in some ways even more powerful than Clark...

I blame the old T.V. show. Linda Carter couldn't throw small cars, so...

[bubba smith]

I blame the old T.V. show. Linda Carter couldn't throw small cars, so...
i think that ws due to the special effects capabilites of the time of the show

[Vox]

In their modern incarnations, Diana is in some ways even more powerful than Clark...

That's probably true, but she, like every other hero in the DCU, becomes completely incompetent whenever Supes is around. It's like having him in the room just crushes their egos...

~Gabriel

[Korvar]

Superman does appear to have the power "Will ultimately win any 1-on-1 fight with another hero if it's important enough." He appears to lose it if he's either mind-controlled or gone evil, which might be worth -1/2 or so.

[Vann the Red]

So long as there are pictures, we're all winners. I have to go with the warrior, personally.

VtR

[Matt the Bruins]

One area where Wonder Woman almost always had a major deficit was invulnerability (Resistant Def?). At the start when lifting a Studebaker was an impressive feat, Superman's skin could be pierced by "nothing less than a bursting shell" while she could be harmed by normal bullets. By 1945 Superman could withstand an atomic bomb, but Diana still had to depend on deflecting gunfire from cheap hoods.

That pretty well extends to the post-Crisis era too. Diana can hold her own in a fistfight with Superman thanks to her greater fighting skills, but drop a nuke on them and you have Superman with slightly singed hair staggering around woozily in a crater over a lasso and pair of bracelets.

[Vox]

and you have Superman with slightly singed hair staggering around woozily in a crater over a lasso and pair of bracelets.

That...was almost poetic.

~Gabriel

[steamteck]

Except under Rucka's run ( so it probably should not count in any sane universe, I really really hate that man), Diana got stunned by mind controlled Supes and was REVIVED by the heat of reentry and the actual fall from orbit did NOTHING to her. She also hid in a vat of molten steel at one point. Zoom hit her with a punch at relativistic speeds which knocked her from the states to France and didn't even stun her. Idiot writer!
Of course Byrne started the whole materializing force globes inside solid objects crap for Sue which I don't buy either. Now if she rammed a force spear into their bodies and expanded it, ruthless but works for me conceptually. Does mean wouldn't work on relatively impervious characters.

Mainly this thread has reminded me how much I loathe certain types of power creep and ill thought out character "enhancements" In my universe, I'd give the edge but not definitive win to Diana without all the absurd feats of either added in.

[casualplayer]

There is an argument to be made that Diana's bracelets are just SFX for an insane, Superman-level defense, maybe even greater. She can "deflect" shots that would take Supes out but the wise GM said "you can have a higher DEF but it's gotta have an Activation or Skill Roll." She does get scuffed up a lot in battles but that's just a Combat Luck-ish visual.

Zoom's punch was just Megascale Knockback, not impact sufficient enough to generate transatlantic inches of KB. That would be table-flipping ridiculous. :eek:

[The Main Man]

WW flew in an invisible jet.

She probably has plenty of expertise in handling invisible things.

[bigbywolfe]

Why do some people keep saying WW has no special senses when the source material specifically says otherwise and it has been pointed out in this very thread multiple times? For that matter, the fact that she can fight almost as well while completely blind makes Sue’s invisibility virtually a non-factor. I’m not saying Diane wins by default, but the repeated insistence that Sue wins by virtue of invisibility instead of her other powers is just silly.

[Matt the Bruins]

Sue's personal invisibility has almost no bearing on the fight, but the invisibility of her force fields makes it much more difficult for Diana to block incoming attacks, and would probably throw her offense off at least a bit since she wouldn't know exactly what point in the swing her punches would make contact with an invisible, silent, odorless barrier harder than steel.

A really smart tactic for Sue would be to contract her shield just as Diana's punching at it, so she makes contact a foot or so beyond the normal end of her reach and overbalances forward. Tricks like taking a blow or two against a convex force bubble and then shaping a wedge with the point aligned between Diana's knuckles could also be devastating if Sue has enough fine control to orient it just right.


There is an argument to be made that Diana's bracelets are just SFX for an insane, Superman-level defense, maybe even greater. She can "deflect" shots that would take Supes out but the wise GM said "you can have a higher DEF but it's gotta have an Activation or Skill Roll."
Missile Delection actually strikes me as the perfect way to model that ability. It's something she has to do actively, but if she succeeds it doesn't matter if it's a bullet or Zeus' lightning bolts, no damage gets through to her.

[Pariah]

It would of course depend on who's writing the scene, but I'm going to go with Wonder Woman for three reasons:

1) Sue Richards is one of comics' most recognized and respected female characters. But Wonder Woman is an icon. Advantage: Wonder Woman.

2) While Sue has much greater variety in her power set, I think Wonder Woman has a higher power level overall. Stronger attacks, higher defenses, faster movement, more endurance. Advantage: Wonder Woman.

3) I'm a sucker for brunettes. :D Advantage: Wonder Woman.

[Split Decision]

Look, WW has superspeed: Sue is probably SPD 4 or 5. Diana is SPD 8 or 9 when she's got her cosmic VPP stacked right. It's really not too much more complicated than that.

[GoldenAge]

He appears to lose it if he's either mind-controlled or gone evil, which might be worth -1/2 or so.

Or if surprised by Captain Marvel! :thumbup:

[Log-Man]

Look, WW has superspeed: Sue is probably SPD 4 or 5. Diana is SPD 8 or 9 when she's got her cosmic VPP stacked right. It's really not too much more complicated than that.
It's much more complicated than that. The speed factor is not as big a win button in this scenario as others.

First, Susan is nearly indestructible, more indestructible than WW. It's on a limited basis due to endurance, but she's taken hits from Galactus, and that was before she was nearly as strong as she is now. She can take a few hits from Diana.

Second, the personal FF goes up at instinctively at the first sign of a threat. The only way WW gets a hit in past the FF is to strike so completely from surprise that even Sue's zero phase action cannot happen first. Possible? Maybe. But it's completely out of character for the warrior princess. I can't see her go ninja here, especially as confident as she is.

Third, Susan isn't going to just sit and take hits continuously. She's going to fight back. Her attacks are AoE which means any DCV advantage Diana has is effectively negated. Further, when fighting bricks Susan keeps them the hell away from her. She may not be the tactitian that WW is, but she has a hell of a lot of experience fighting bricks from a rampaging Hulk to her best friend, The Thing, not to mention The Gladiator, She-Hulk, Thor, Super-Skrull, etc. warrior born? Maybe not, but let's not discount her experience as negligible.

The interesting thing about the Fantastic Four is that each one of them has been shown to have the power to destroy the others if they were to ever cut loose (usually via mind control). Sue has been considered the most powerful one of them for years, too. I'm not saying it's an automatic win for The Invisible Woman (though she got my vote) but I am saying that it is in no way an automatic win for Wonder Woman.

[The Main Man]

People keep mentioning how deadly the Invisible Woman is.

Fair enough, but just remember that WW was trained for thousands of years on how to kill - she is a warrior after all.


Why is all of this turning me on?

[Log-Man]

People keep mentioning how deadly the Invisible Woman is.

Fair enough, but just remember that WW was trained for thousands of years on how to kill - she is a warrior after all.just trying to give Sue some credit. It seems a lot of people are dismissing her out of hand. It's not as obvious as a Batman vs Captain America fight. (Kidding!)



Why is all of this turning me on?
You too, huh? :D

[Nagisawa Takumi]

It's much more complicated than that. The speed factor is not as big a win button in this scenario as others.

First, Susan is nearly indestructible, more indestructible than WW. It's on a limited basis due to endurance, but she's taken hits from Galactus, and that was before she was nearly as strong as she is now. She can take a few hits from Diana.

Second, the personal FF goes up at instinctively at the first sign of a threat. The only way WW gets a hit in past the FF is to strike so completely from surprise that even Sue's zero phase action cannot happen first. Possible? Maybe. But it's completely out of character for the warrior princess. I can't see her go ninja here, especially as confident as she is.

Third, Susan isn't going to just sit and take hits continuously. She's going to fight back. Her attacks are AoE which means any DCV advantage Diana has is effectively negated. Further, when fighting bricks Susan keeps them the hell away from her. She may not be the tactitian that WW is, but she has a hell of a lot of experience fighting bricks from a rampaging Hulk to her best friend, The Thing, not to mention The Gladiator, She-Hulk, Thor, Super-Skrull, etc. warrior born? Maybe not, but let's not discount her experience as negligible.

The interesting thing about the Fantastic Four is that each one of them has been shown to have the power to destroy the others if they were to ever cut loose (usually via mind control). Sue has been considered the most powerful one of them for years, too. I'm not saying it's an automatic win for The Invisible Woman (though she got my vote) but I am saying that it is in no way an automatic win for Wonder Woman.

This, especially the Bold part.

The only way the visuals could get better is if we added Jello and/or Pudding to the mix.

[Vox]

As I believe somebody said earlier, these cross-archetype matchups are always a bit weird. Professor X versus Superman? Magneto versus Batman? When they have no strengths (or weaknesses) in common, it makes it difficult to make any meaningful comparison.

~Gabriel

[The Main Man]

just trying to give Sue some credit. It seems a lot of people are dismissing her out of hand. It's not as obvious as a Batman vs Captain America fight. (Kidding!)
Fair enough.


You too, huh? :D
What can I say, my friggin' name tells the story.:rolleyes: