Just making sure I'm doing this right...

[SuperBlue]

Okay, my character Shifter (A Teleporter/Martial Artist), is trained in every form of martial arts known to man. To represent this, the GM recomended I do a multipower, but I think a VPP would be more appropriate, so here goes:


Martial Arts VPP - 30 Point Pool (Base 30)
Control Cost (Base 15)

Can change skills as a 0 Phase Action (+1)
No Skill Roll needed to change Skills (+1)
Limited Class of Skills (Martial Arts and CLS only) )-1/2)

Total Cost: 60 Points

Basically, my guy is a formerly trained assasin (was inspired by X-2), who while under the control of VIPER, was extensively trained in ALL Martial Arts (skills are the followign: Akido, Judo, Kungfu, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Ninjutsu, Boxing, Drunken Boxing, Wrestling, Savate, Fensing, Kick Boxing

Here's another problem... I don't have the combat Skill lists for Tae Kwon Do, Drunken Boxing, or Kick Boxing (Champions #450 has all the others though...)
Any sugguestions?

[Tom McCarthy]

That's 60 points. Why not buy 40 or 50 points of maneouvres, a few skill levels, and skip the framework ?

Personally, I don't like skills in frameworks (particularly VPPs), so I always look for an alternative.

[Old Man]

Wouldn't it be more efficient to just buy all of the Martial Maneuvers and Weapon Elements then leave the rest to Special Effects?

[pinecone]

Yeah dude I'd go with a few basic "must have " moves and "Martial scholar" for 3 and 10 to 15 points of KS:kalaripayit,KS:Kempo etc....?

[BlackCobra]

Personally I was never a big fan of allowing skills in a VPP.

I think this is one of those special effects vs. actual power things.

To best simulate this, I'd take 15 or 20 maneuvers (or about 60 points worth) instead, showing that your character is trained in all major martial arts forms. Then take Scholar & the knowledge skills you'd need (as suggested above).

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by BlackCobra
Personally I was never a big fan of allowing skills in a VPP.

I think this is one of those special effects vs. actual power things.

To best simulate this, I'd take 15 or 20 maneuvers (or about 60 points worth) instead, showing that your character is trained in all major martial arts forms. Then take Scholar & the knowledge skills you'd need (as suggested above). I totally agree with BlackCobra. Buy 60 points of Martial Maneuvers, which will be more than adequate considering many of them essentially duplicate each other. That's give your character about 17-18 maneuvers. Slap on a few Damage Classes and 15 points worth of Weapon Elements and you're cookin' with gas.

Put 'em in a VPP, and if I were GM I would find a way to Drain or Suppress it. It's munchkinism in the extreme IMHO.

[DoctorItron]

Try to model the martial arts skills with powers, instead. You can put powers into a Variable Power Pool or other framework without running into any rules issues. The following slots cover most martial maneuvers:

1) Extra STR, 0 END, doesn't add to figured characteristics. Various punches, kicks, grabs, holds, escape moves, etc.
2) Hand Attack, No Normal Defense. Choke hold.
3) Hand Killing Attack. Various bone-breaking maneuvers.

Add additional slots to model throws and legsweeps. Don't forget a few skill levels, too (outside of the multipower framework, lest ye break the rules). Assuming it's a superhero game, you could also add desol (special effect being able to dodge every attack) and invisibility (super stealth).

[Super Squirrel]

Originally posted by DoctorItron
Try to model the martial arts skills with powers, instead. You can put powers into a Variable Power Pool or other framework without running into any rules issues. The following slots cover most martial maneuvers:

1) Extra STR, 0 END, doesn't add to figured characteristics. Various punches, kicks, grabs, holds, escape moves, etc.
2) Hand Attack, No Normal Defense. Choke hold.
3) Hand Killing Attack. Various bone-breaking maneuvers.

Add additional slots to model throws and legsweeps. Don't forget a few skill levels, too (outside of the multipower framework, lest ye break the rules). Assuming it's a superhero game, you could also add desol (special effect being able to dodge every attack) and invisibility (super stealth). I have to agree with this position. Skills and Maneuvers are either illegal or discouraged in power frameworks.

[Fur Face]

Hey SuperBlue,

I'm not sure what effects you want to simulate, but if you really want someone who knows a lot of martial arts and to use a VPP, you could do it like this:
1) Buy a KS in all the martial arts you are supposed to know
2) Buy all the damage classes you want outside of the VPP
3)Buy a 6 point VPP as you suggest. Except you would add "only to simulate martial arts for which I have a KS in". A 6 point VPP would get you all of that.

Some will say this would be "limberger cheese", but if you do things like buy 5 damage classes (20 points), the VPP (10 points?) and 12 KS's (36 points, 24 if you are a scholar), the cost is about the same.

However, as with the others, I would suggest that you just buy maneuvers and damage classes that you want. When using martial arts, if you have a style that has maneuvers, and you want another style, just buy the KS. If you buy the KS, you can automatically switch between styles, since a marial strike is a martial strike is a martial strike. After you buy you initial style (like Kung Fu), then you only have to buy a KS (like Savate) and maneuvers that are original within each particular style. Many martial arts are nothing more than the same maneuvers with different names.

Just my humble opinon, use at your own risk! ;)

[SuperBlue]

Actually, I changed my mind about the VPP... I just spent 52 points to buy every Maneuver in the Book, bought Scholar: Marital Arts for 3, and spent 12 points for a bunch of 11- Martial Arts KS's

[sbarron]

I'm going to suggest you change back SuperBlue. What is the fun in playing a world class martial artist in a supers campaign if you don't know some "secret" and/or "ancient" moves that make your character exceptional? Regular maneuvers are ok, but with a VPP, you could have:

Unblockable Punch: HA, AoE 1 Hex
Perfect Block: Force Wall, 1 hex, only attacks character could block
Breaking Strike: HKA, Penetrating
Perfect Dodge: Desilodification
Snatch Arrow: Missle Deflection
Long Punch: HA, Stretching
Faster than the eye strike: HA, Invisible power effects
Flurry: HA, Autofire
Hu Mountain Far Kick: EB, PD, IPE

I'm just making these up off the top of my head, so please forgive me if some of them aren't mechanically sound. The supposed "best" MAist from 4th Edition used a VPP to represent his MA style, so it's not like the VPP is unsound. It just depends on the kind of character you want to play, and the limits of you and your GMs imagination.

[Arthur]

Just buy all the basic maneuvers and scads of CSLs. Almost anything you can do with martial arts, you can do with CSLs (or you should be able to, using the 2 levels for +1 DC model). 2 skill levels could be used as a +5 STR to any exert, etc.

The style writeups are good for representing how schools really train, but there is a great deal of overlap between the styles, to say the least. There really are only so many things you can do with a human body - most styles are very similar to each other. "Ooochiegooogooie san kojitsuteriyaki" sounds impressive and exotic and oriental, but it all boils down to a swift kick in the nuts. That's the same in any language.

I'd buy about ten maneuvers and put about 50 points into CSLs. I would not allow a VPP in this case. Skills do not belong in VPPs.

Martial Strike, Offensive Strike, M Dodge, M Disarm, M Escape, Killing Strike, Nerve Strike, M Throw, Choke, M Grab - that should just about cover everything you would do in a fight. That's roughly 40 points. Add another 20 for the ones I forgot. Buy six HTH CSLs for 30 points.

90 points total, but this would be a FEARSOME martial artist. Buy a 1d HKA and drop the Killing Strike for 11 more points and you have Remo WIlliams fighting ability.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Arthur
Buy a 1d HKA and drop the Killing Strike for 11 more points and you have Remo WIlliams fighting ability. Yes, and Chiun makes a great DNPC (Always Involved 14-, Must Prevent Him From Killing Cabbies and Rude Hotel Personnel) ;)

[Crimson Arrow]

There are a few ways to do this.

1. The Combat Skill Level MA. This is where you buy levels and then apply them in different combinations (eg 8 levels to OCV, or 4 to OCV and 4 to make +2DCs etc.). While mechanically this is fine for striking-based martial arts, it does not cope too well with other moves, especially unusual attacks like HKAs and NNDs.

Also you need to keep an eye on the maximum total OCV limits there might be. One way round that is to buy at least some of the levels at the 5 point level and apply a limit that they cannot be used for OCV (for example).

I don't like this method for the above reasons and because it just looks really clunky - it's a style thing rather than effectiveness, though and I know some people like this route.

2. Multipower MA. Buy various moves as powers and stick them in a multipower. You can keep this to "Fu" powers (like those suggested by sbarron) or add in more mundane things, such as HAs, HKAs, extra STR only for holding on, escaping etc. Teleios has a multipower with those elements to simulate the martial arts of "a hundred lands" (or something like that).

Again, I think this lacks a martial arts flavour, but I prefer it to method 1.

3. VPP. I think this fulfils a similar function to the multipower, but by and large will be more costly.

I don't think you can (or should) have CSLs in a VPP; it's too abusive, but of course you might get it through. I'd suggest a few CSLs in HTH outside of the Mpower or VPP, to try and keep it legit.

4. Buy MAs. Very nice flavour, it's easier to think what sort of blow you are landing and describe it from there and it's easier to identify the art in question.

However, it is not a very efficient method if you buy lots of manoeuvres. You are much better off doing what Arthur suggested and buying about 10 moves and some Damage Classes and CSLS.

Have a look at the various arts you want and the manoeuvres listed for each (go by effect, not name) and you'll see a lot of potential overlap, especially with the majority of the arts you've listed. Come up with moves that bridge the gap between as many arts as possible, then fill in a few blanks. You say you've bought every manoeuvre, but the points cost seems wrong; I think you have done the exercise I have just described.

Add in you KSs and CSLs in HTH and there you are. I don't think your character has mystical abilities, so I'd go down this route. It might not be the most points efficient way, but there IS more to it than that.

YMMV, of course.

[SuperBlue]

My character's main ability is Teleportation...

The Martial Arts represent the training he received while VIPER had him brainwashed to be an assasin.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Yes, and Chiun makes a great DNPC (Always Involved 14-, Must Prevent Him From Killing Cabbies and Rude Hotel Personnel) ;)

:p:p

Is that all? It's more like "anybody who annoys him or fails to show proper respect".

Chiun as a DNPC? He's at least as deadly as Remo - probably more so.

[DoctorItron]

Chin is definitely more deadly than Remo. Remo could take Chiun as a Watched and a few Social Limitations (Subject to Orders, for example), but probably not a DNPC.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by DoctorItron
Chiun is definitely more deadly than Remo. Remo could take Chiun as a Watched and a few Social Limitations (Subject to Orders, for example), but probably not a DNPC. There's some question whether Chiun is actually more powerful than Remo (at least all the time, since Remo is also the reincarnation of Shiva), but I was thinking more of the social aspects. Remo is constantly having to prevent Chiun from killing or maining essentially innocent people simply because they irritate him. At this point they are essentially co-equal Masters of Sinanju. A superhero team of two, so to speak. And the hero of the series is Remo, not Chiun. So I think Chiun is the DNPC, or possibly a Follower. He is not the central character, but functions more as a comic sidekick/deus ex machina.

And just think how much fun it would be to control a DNPC at least as powerful as the title superhero. :p

[DoctorItron]

If we tried to itemize every way in which Chiun gets in the way, Remo would need whole page just for the Chiun-related disadvantages.

Maybe Chiun should just count as a custom disad. Wrap the humiliation he inflicts on Remo, and everything else, into it. Should be worth 30 to 50 points depending on the campaign.

I'm GMing a campaign. I occasionally play a Remo-inspired character when we have guest GMs. Got disad points for a Chiun-like master (less homicidal but just as annoying, more like the movie Chiun than the book Chiun) but he has yet to appear...