Is Frank Castle the Punisher a Hero?

[ShinDangaioh]

Well, is he?

[TaxiMan]

Hahahahahahahaha! I voted "No", and have COMPLETELY swamped the ballot box! It's unanimous, he's a VILLIAN! Close the poll & arrest the miscreant, it's all over now!

[TaxiMan]

What's this?!? Someone ELSE has voted? Outrageous!

At least they had the good sense to agree with me.

[Jeff T.]

A basic definition of Hero would be someone who willingly sacrifices themselves for others, particularly in the face of adversity.

Now, it could be assumed that some comic book superheroes have some level of psychological disorder that makes them do what they do. However, Frank Castle is clearly a less-than-sane sociopath. He has few heroic tendencies, and those are generally supplanted by his mental illness. In effect, he is not driven by willing heroism, but by his obsessions (which are caused by mental instability).

The fact that his poor mental health happens to take out alot of bad guys is just a side effect.

[Klytus]

Just because Frank limits the venting of his homicidal rage against the criminal element does not make him a hero. He's a serial killer who targets "the guilty"; a psycho with a deathwish in dire need of psychotherapy, grief counseling, and a life sentence.

I guess my answer would be "no".

[Crimson-Hawk]

A person who's actually willing to cut through all the beaucratic red tape and actually punish criminals without filling up prisons and eating up tax dollars with pomp, circumstance, and coddling?

Siskel and Ebert says, "Two Thumbs Up!"

[ShinDangaioh]

Since I posted the poll, I feel I should make a comment.

IMPO The Punisher is a sick joke that has been carried on for far too long.

I consider the Johnny Blaze/Zarathos Ghost Rider more of a superhero than Castle. I can't recall a time Ghost Rider killed. Yes, he had the cold hellfire that seared a person's soul, but it usually made a better person out of the person he attacked.

[starblaze]

One thing that people tend to forget about the Punisher is that although he is a cold-blooded killer who hunts criminals he does have a very few positive characteristics to his character.

He will not kill law-enforcement personell i.e. cops and he will actually go out of his way to not kill innocents and prevent their deaths. So with that in mind Frank is not a totally bad character although he should be imprisoned for a long time if not life and get psychological therapy.

Is Frank a hero, maybe he is, he is at least to those few he has saved from criminals.

[SuperPheemy]

It depends on which Punisher we're talking about, and what setting he's dumped in.

If we're talking about the old Spidey-villain Punisher who contrasted Spiderman's code against killing by leaving bodies of mobsters strewn hither, tither and yon. Then the verdict is Punisher= villain.

However, if we're talking about the mid-late '90s when Punisher was responding with lethal force against a Rogues' Gallary of villains who initiated lethal force, he becomes much more of an antihero, but a hero nonetheless. Especially during the time when Frank had a "support group" of sorts who helped keep him from "going too far".

What about the short-lived Punisher era where he used "Mercy Bullets" that just knocked people out? Sure it was stupid, but he wasn't piling up bodies.

On the other hand, other eras of the Punisher took Frank way too far, seduced by the "slash-and-splash" success of other titles that featured bright red panels filled with gore. Definitely NOT a hero then, but in that regard, kind of a weak treatment of the character anyway.

Honestly, I can't really vote. Frank Castle has the potential to be a very deep character, fighting both inner demons, and external threats. He could be one of those heroes who bring Justice to those above the law. Occasionally we get to see that.

On the other hand, he could just be a skull icon wading through clouds of cordite smoke as hails of bullets blaze through panel after panel of throw away goons.

[wcw43921]

I've said before on another board that all they did to create The Punisher was take Don Pendleton's character Mack Bolan: The Executioner and put a superhero costume on him. Even in comics, where "borrowing" concepts from other characters is a way of life, the blatant plagarism and complete lack of original thought that went into this character deprives him completely of any redeeming dramatic value.

And I DO NOT approve of superheroes who deliberately kill.

To my mind, The Punisher does not deserve his own comic series, the big-budget movie they're planning for him, or much of anything else except to languish in creative limbo for all eternity.

[Tim]

Punisheer started out as a Spidey villian, and even though he cleaned up a little, he still is.

Same with Venom, A spidey villian who once he got over his hatred of Spidey, moved off to a new location and became an anti-hero. Much to violent for my tastes.

TimS.

[Bill_CCHKK]

Originally posted by ShinDangaioh
Well, is he?

I'd definately vote no on this one. Heroes do heroic things.

There's a really good essay about this on the Global Guardians web site, written by Ry Stevenson. Link (http://www.globalguardians.com/guardian/guardian001j.html)

- Bill

[dbsousa]

Originally posted by starblaze
One thing that people tend to forget about the Punisher is that although he is a cold-blooded killer who hunts criminals he does have a very few positive characteristics to his character.

He will not kill law-enforcement personell i.e. cops and he will actually go out of his way to not kill innocents and prevent their deaths. So with that in mind Frank is not a totally bad character although he should be imprisoned for a long time if not life and get psychological therapy.

Is Frank a hero, maybe he is, he is at least to those few he has saved from criminals.

I don't kill cops or innocents. Where's my medal?

[Evil Steve]

Nope. Not a hero. No nobility of character, no attempt at reform or reason.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't thank him for his efforts though.

[starblaze]

All I was trying to say was that I believe that Frank could be classified as an Anti-Hero in that he has some admirable qualities and is usually at least marginally better morally then the people he takes out.

[Enforcer84]

Crazy miscreant

[Hermit]

I can have sympathy for Punisher, heck, I can't even blame him... and sometimes he does brave things and saves good people.... but mostly he has failed to take the high road... not merely by foible, but by choice. No. I don't consider him a hero.

But YMMV

[Karma]

Originally posted by Tim
Punisheer started out as a Spidey villian, and even though he cleaned up a little, he still is.

Same with Venom, A spidey villian who once he got over his hatred of Spidey, moved off to a new location and became an anti-hero. Much to violent for my tastes.

TimS.

Speaking of Venom, IMO he is more of a hero than Frankey Boy. Venom is obseesed with Protecting the Innocent, Frank with Punishing the Guilty.
Venom always has to make sure that every person he kills is guilty, at least by his twisted standards, and is more concerned with saving people than killing the badguys (Yes he's a sadistic psycho, but he has some redeeming features, he'd never actually kill Aunt May, for example, as much as he might threaten to)
As far as the Punisher is concerned anyone who associates with criminals is equally guilty and deserving of punishment, even if that 'association' is being in the same resterant as the perp when Frank comes to 'Mete out Justice' hence the fully auto weapons he's famous for, as far as he's concerned there are no innocent bystanders.
Or to use the famous 'save the innocent or chase the badguy' scenario. Venom would save the innocents and then hunt down the badguy obsessively and kill him slowly for endangering the 'girl scouts' or whatever. Frank would let the 'girl scouts' die safe in the knowledge that he would avenge their deaths by killing the badguy.
So whose the greater hero (or less heroic, if you want)?

[death tribble]

The Punisher is a villain.

Though as stated he went out of his way to not kill innocents.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by starblaze
All I was trying to say was that I believe that Frank could be classified as an Anti-Hero in that he has some admirable qualities and is usually at least marginally better morally then the people he takes out.

I agree with this. I even agree that he has been portrayed with great depth of character. I agree he has done good. I even feel the boy's pain. Still, an anti-hero is NOT a hero.

[Catacomb]

Just look at what he did to Daredevil a couple of years ago to try and prove his 'point' about killing. Punisher is a villian, pure and simple. He doesn't even have the out that could make him a hero...some kind of post-cognition that allowed him to see into someones soul and know if they were evil or not. So he's making judgements about people based upon his human imperfection. VILLIAN!!!

[TheTemplar]

I don't necessarily know that I would consider him a "villain" but I never really followed his books much, so I'm sure there's TONS I'm missing out on. I DO remember him from his humble beginnings as a Spidey villain - I actually sorta liked him in that light..but when I saw Marvel was giving him his own comic and that he was getting this HUGE push to the good guy side, I lost all interest in Frankie Boy. I'll probably see the movie anyway.....for some reason, killing sprees in movies aren't as unsettling as in comic books...that's really twisted, isn't it?

***SPOILER ALERT FOR X2*****
Though, I have to admit...Wolverine was a bit over the top in the school scene for my tastes. He's also on my shortlist of questionable Heroes
****END SPOILER****

Anyway, wheter or not his actions produce good results is debatable. His motives certainly aren't the purest known to man, but no one's perfect, I suppose.

I might be willing to concede that he's a (quasi)-"hero", but I sure wouldn't let him join one of my campaigns! ;-)

-T

[Susano]

Okay, here's a question -- Is Steve Long's Harbinger Of Justice a hero? After all, the original DARK CHAMPIONS credits him with over 2,000 murders (among other crimes).

[Worldmaker]

Frank Castle is a sociopath and a serial killer. The only reason the question has ever been asked is that his target group is criminals. If you keep his actions the same, but change his target group to any other social group (mailmen, for example, or bus drivers), it becomes obvious that's he no hero.

As for Wolverine, whom someone mentioned, the difference is that Wolverine is *willing* to use deadly force when its absolutely necessary, but doesn't always consider it necessary. Sure, its a fine line, but a line it is.

[SuperPheemy]

As the years have gone by, Wolverine has changed his outlook slowly. He's gone from berzerk near-animal to a mentor of younger heroes. Frank hasn't done that, which is a big reason why Punisher is a weaker character than Wolverine. Wolverine's attitues evolve as his story is written, Punisher doesn't.

I guess that's a character-tragedy that I see. Punisher could be a very compelling hero, if allowed to evolve. But the "powers that be" in control of his story (those being the writers and editors of the line) haven't allowed that to happen.

BEGIN ANECDOTE
I have a bit of sympathy for poor ol' Frank. A couple of years ago, I created a Punisher-clone specifically to explore the evolution and redemption of such a character. Unfortunately, he had a forceful enough personality, and his fellow heroes were enough of followers, that no one really challenged the morality of his blood-soaked path. The character never redeemed, and just degenerated into a killer as bad or worse than the villains he opposed.

I see a parallel with the Punisher line, is Marvel simply catering to the fans of the comic? And are those fans, as a whole, more interested in panel after panel of Frank Castle delivering lethal ordinance than any sort of redemption?
END ANECDOTE

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Susano
Okay, here's a question -- Is Steve Long's Harbinger Of Justice a hero? After all, the original DARK CHAMPIONS credits him with over 2,000 murders (among other crimes).

No and HELL NO, from the description of HoJ he is not heroic

[red_eagle123]

In my honest opinion, Punisher is not a hero so much as he's a measure to compare against true heroes. Punisher takes the easy way out, slaughtering anyone he doesn't like. True heroes will attempt to save lives, even the lives of those they're fighting. I have never seen Punisher show mercy or compassion to his fellow human beings.

As for Wolverine, when he first appeared he was a hero. Did he have razor sharp blades on the back of his hands? Yeah, but they weren't the only tools he used. He used his brains, and he showed compassion to others. It wasn't until the Dark Phoenix saga that the 'bezerker fury' really sparked off how brutal he could really be. Temporary Insanity is what that is really. But that's not his normal modus opporendi. It wasn't until he got his own comic, and the 'Dark and Gritty' era started that he really became a lean, mean, slaughtering machine. This is the point in history that I really started to actively dislike Wolverine. He's an interesting character concept, but it got pushed too far during this era, pushing him further away from the concept of being a hero.

Of course, this is the same era that Venom was declared a hero, Punisher had 4 top-selling titles, Ghost Rider was all over the place, anything with Wolverine in it was snatched off the shelves, and other such characters ran rampant. All I have to say is I'm glad things are returning to 'normal'. Some characters can benefit from an edge (Batman, Wolverine, Ghost Rider), but many of the titles during the 'dark'n'gritty' era just pushed it over the edge.

The above is all purely my opinion and may be freely dismissed or ignored as chosen.

[Tamashii2000]

Gee, I always throught the punisher was a ThunderBird Clone:D :D :D (J/K)

[zen_hydra]

You all stand on your sensitive, naive pedestals and cast judgment down from on high. While a real mensch, like Frank Castle does what needs to be done. What is wrong with you people? Do you honestly expect people not to die when you hit them with lightning bolts, fireballs, adamantium claws, and freakin' Mjolnir? You can't fight an evil 70 story omelet, without breaking a few eggs. :D

[Klytus]

Originally posted by Susano
Okay, here's a question -- Is Steve Long's Harbinger Of Justice a hero? After all, the original DARK CHAMPIONS credits him with over 2,000 murders (among other crimes).

(Batman Skills) + (Batman Training) + (Batman Brains) + (Batman Obsession with justice) - (Batman Conscience) + (Punisher Drive to Punish the Guilty) + (Punisher Psychosis) + (Punisher Arsenal) +(Nazi Death-Camp body-count) + (a cool costume concept) = The Harbinger of Justice.

Mix up the formula any way you like... but this is not a Hero.

[CrosshairCollie]

No, no, no, no, nein, nyet, non, negative, no way, uh-uh.

Heroes do not kill if there's any other option. He could very easily take them alive with his training. Being a hero is about doing things the hard way. The hard way is taking them alive, letting the law do its job, flawed as it may be. The easy, lazy way is to drill them dead. And y'know what doing things the easy, lazy way makes you?

A WIMP.

This is what made Wolverine a wimp for so many years (mostly in his own title); he refused to exercise the willpower and self-restraint he should have, and killed. He's still moderately wimpy, but from what I last heard, he might be growing out of it. And thanks for the X2 spoiler, TheTemplar ... now I know I made the right decision in not seeing it.

[Vondy]

From a literary perspective he is an anti-hero, but not properly a villian, unless you are using the narrow definition of the four color comic genre.

From a real world perspective - he is suffering from a psychotic disorder and is a threat to himself and society at large.

From my own perspective - he's a rabid dog who needs to be put down.

[TheTemplar]

Sorry if I ruined the movie for you there, CrosshairCollie...sounds like you weren't planning on seeing it anyway though, and I figured posting that it contained Spoiler material would steer anyone away who didn't want to read it. Anyway, I DO like the X-Men..but I'm by no means a big Wolverine fan. I think Hugh Jackman does a pretty good job playing him and all...I'm just not big on the character.

Since we're on the topic of the Big P here...who's playing him in the movie??

-T

[Balok]

The Punisher is definitely not a hero. He's a serial killer. The fact that he selects his victims according to the same basic criteria law enforcement uses to select who it arrests and prosecutes is sort of beside the point.

His fans (including me, I'll admit it) like him because there is, deep inside of most people, a secret desire for a simple solution: when we see criminals "get away with it", we are offended by the wrongness of it. And Frank Castle's simple, black and white approach to the world, is on some level satisfying. As a comic book character. The real world has more shades of grey than Frank could ever tolerate. I think some folks see him as closer to the real world, because his methods could conceivably be emulated here (as opposed to someone with telekinesis, or telepathy -- powers that don't, as far as we now know, exist). But he really isn't any closer to the real world than any other comic character.





X2 SPOILER BELOW:

TheEmerged: I don't believe Wolverine was over the top. When someone invades your home with the intent to kill you, you are entitled to defend yourself using whatever level of force is necessary to remove the threat. As far as Wolverine could tell, that was exactly what was happening during that scene. If you'd care to debate the matter at greater length, we probably shouldn't do it here, though.

[TheTemplar]

Nope, no debate from me (I assume you meant me..not The Emerged, since I'm the one who brought up the Wolvy point.) In that light, you are 100% correct. If someone broke into my house, they'd have a 10 lb. Mag Lite across the back of their skull before they knew what happened. If it killed them, too bad. From that PoV, I wholly agree. Now, of course WE the viewing audience know that the ...sigh...

**MORE X2 SPOILERS PENDING**

..we know the soldiers werent' there with the intent to kill, but Wolverine certainly wouldn't have had that knowledge. I'm STILL not a huge fan by any means, but I concede the point that his actions were justifiable in defense of the children. A bit savage...but what would you expect from someone named Wolverine?? ;-)

Punisher though, is a totally different matter altogether. I'll still probably go see the movie..just to keep the $$ flowing in to Marvel's movie dept, because I think they've got some really good projects going and I've liked everything I've seen from them for the most part. But, that doesn't mean I'm sold on his "heroism."

-T

(yes, that last bit was just a vain attempt at staying on the topic of the thread. sue me. ;) )

[Worldmaker]

You know, this is off topic, but it sometimes makes my teeth ache when people talk about criminals "getting away with it". Usually, they "get away with it" because the prosecutors have violated the Constitutional protections we're all supposed to enjoy. It really gets my nerves jumping when I see someone refer to the Constitution as a "loophole" that the criminal somehow found and slipped through.

And yes, I know no one mentioned loopholes. Its a digression, live with it.

I'm just a firm believer in the ideal put forward by John Adams when he said (and I am paraphrasing) "Better ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be condemned."

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by TheTemplar
..we know the soldiers werent' there with the intent to kill, but Wolverine certainly wouldn't have had that knowledge. I'm STILL not a huge fan by any means, but I concede the point that his actions were justifiable in defense of the children. A bit savage...but what would you expect from someone named Wolverine?? ;-)


X2 SPOILER!!!!!

Erm, forgive me for picking a nit, but the soldier fired a submachine gun at Iceman before Wolvie had killed anyone. That's 'intent to kill' in my book. All bets are off at that point.

[TheTemplar]

Originally posted by Starlord
X2 SPOILER!!!!!

Erm, forgive me for picking a nit, but the soldier fired a submachine gun at Iceman before Wolvie had killed anyone. That's 'intent to kill' in my book. All bets are off at that point.

**SORRY..MORE X2 SPOILAGE**

He did?? I forgot all about that! Well, that DOES definitely demonstrate intent to kill. I just remember them using the little KO darts...but that does change things a bit. I still resolutely maintain my stance that supers should not use lethal force practically ever, but at the same time, I also understand that that doesn't sell movie tickets. :D

All that aside, it was still a pretty good movie. I saw it twice the weekend it opened, and will probably buy the DVD when it comes out (Nightcrawler alone is worth it.) AND, I'm sure I'll be there the night Punisher opens too. I'll be expecting nothing less than a Frank Castle splatterfest, though I would REALLY like to see them take the time to develop the character.... He DOES have a high amount of potential, if they decided to develop the character instead of focusing on the Body Count. I'm not holding my breath, but we'll see.

-T

[Yamo]

I'm very much an "ends justify the means" kinda guy.

Anyone that kills violent criminals is a hero to me on some level, even if he himself is also a violent criminal.

Don't think about it too hard, you'll hurt your brain. ;)


And I DO NOT approve of superheroes who deliberately kill.

See, I generally don't approve of ones that don't. It's morally irresponsible in a setting where escape from incarceration is shown to be so common and easy for violent supercriminals.

I mean, I think they ought to start charging Batman as an accessory to murder after the tenth time he brings the Joker in alive only to have him escapes and kill again a few months later. Geez, Bats! Just shoot the clown in the head already! :rolleyes:

[ShinDangaioh]

What state is Gotham set in?

Bats brings Joker in and the Gotham Law Enforcement sends him right back to Arkham. The Joker should be immediately be put on Death Row and if he escapes, the police are told shoot to kill.

That would irk Batman so much. He has to watch as a cop executes Joker and he can do nothing, since that is the punishment the law has passed down.

Joker has passed way beyond the point of reasonableness.

I'm wondering when Spider-man is going to snap and kill Norman Osborne. Normy is getting about as bad as Joker.


Back to Punisher. I'm actually suprised that Batman didn't haul him in during the xover.

[Mutant for Hire]

In general, I tend to think that unsanctioned superheroes shouldn't kill, except in self-defense, and even in those cases clearly in the cases where it's 'kill or be killed'. For sanctioned supers, it's on the same level as cops using lethal force. To be avoided as much as possible, but there are times when the only way to save lives is to drop the perp as fast as possible. Hostage situations, primarily. Mad scientists with doomsday bombs effectively have everyone in the region in their vicinity.

As for 'heroes don't kill', that depends entirely on your definition of hero. For example, the Knights of the Round Table clearly didn't have any code versus killing. Their opinion about the best way to deal with a villain was to make sure they didn't bother anyone else again, permanently.

[Karma]

Originally posted by Balok
The Punisher is definitely not a hero. He's a serial killer. The fact that he selects his victims according to the same basic criteria law enforcement uses to select who it arrests and prosecutes is sort of beside the point.

His fans (including me, I'll admit it) like him because there is, deep inside of most people, a secret desire for a simple solution: when we see criminals "get away with it", we are offended by the wrongness of it.

Funnily enough many people can have deep desires to do all thoughts of things. Many kids probably feel put upon at school and wish they could do something to those bullying them, yet we don't call the school shooters heroes, or even anti-heroes. Sometimes people think about stealing something they want but can't afford, yet we don't see thieves as 'couragious'. Stop trying to justify the Punisher.
Yes he's bad by the 'comics code morality' but he's just as bad by 'real' morality. Even those who support Capital Punishment (or lets be realistic, Execution) believe that the state needs to be totally sure of the criminal's guilt (not that they sometimes are, there are pages filled with names of the 'wrongly executed'). Frank OTOH needs no such 'assurances', As far as he's concerned if someone is in the same 'spray fire' space as a suspected criminal they're guilyy enough to be killed.

[Yamo]

Stop trying to justify the Punisher.

You're right.

He needs no justification. :cool:

Remember, before that inane comics code came along, Batman carried a gun and used it on crooks, too. Killing the bad guys so they can't bother you or anyone else agan doesn't make you a villian. It makes you a smart hero.

[zen_hydra]

You whiners are all products of the moronic comics code. The lack of realistic violence has always been one of the things that has broken my suspension of disbelief with comics. In a genre as rooted in violence as super hero comics, it is moronic the way that the violence is portrayed. As long as people keep demonstrating to children that the consequences of combat with lethal weapons and energies (fire, electricity, radiation, etc...) are being knocked unconscious, then we are going to see delusional psychopaths in kids bodies. I am all for glorifying violence, but come on people, lets do it realistically. I want to see Supes and Hulk splatting heads like melons. I want to see adamantium claws eviscerating the mooks. The comic code did nothing but stifle the creative freedoms of not just a group of artists, but an entire medium. That is unforgivable in my opinion. The Punisher is the kind of super hero that you would find in the real world. He sees a problem that can't, or won't be fixed by the governmental system and does something about it with the means he has at his disposal. If I was in his place, I would be billing the government for it as well. I don't see how the Punisher is any more harmful to society than any of the other super heroes that wantonly create hideous collateral damage during their super-fights. How many innocent people has Superman, Hulk, Thor, Thing, or any of the others killed inadvertently while trying to save the world? At least Frank is up front about what he does. He might throw a hand grenade into a group of nuns to kill a gangster, but he doesn't collapse skyscrapers full of people on accident.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by zen_hydra
At least Frank is up front about what he does. He might throw a hand grenade into a group of nuns to kill a gangster, but he doesn't collapse skyscrapers full of people on accident.

Actually, he doesn't. In the few Punisher stories I've read, his one redeeming trait is that he absolutley, positively, refuses to take the lives of "innocents" - a category which includes cops and costumed heroes. If there are any at risk, he won't use "hard" ammo.

[TheTemplar]

Originally posted by zen_hydra
You whiners are all products of the moronic comics code. The lack of realistic violence has always been one of the things that has broken my suspension of disbelief with comics. In a genre as rooted in violence as super hero comics, it is moronic the way that the violence is portrayed. As long as people keep demonstrating to children that the consequences of combat with lethal weapons and energies (fire, electricity, radiation, etc...) are being knocked unconscious, then we are going to see delusional psychopaths in kids bodies. I am all for glorifying violence, but come on people, lets do it realistically. I want to see Supes and Hulk splatting heads like melons. I want to see adamantium claws eviscerating the mooks. The comic code did nothing but stifle the creative freedoms of not just a group of artists, but an entire medium. That is unforgivable in my opinion. The Punisher is the kind of super hero that you would find in the real world. He sees a problem that can't, or won't be fixed by the governmental system and does something about it with the means he has at his disposal. If I was in his place, I would be billing the government for it as well. I don't see how the Punisher is any more harmful to society than any of the other super heroes that wantonly create hideous collateral damage during their super-fights. How many innocent people has Superman, Hulk, Thor, Thing, or any of the others killed inadvertently while trying to save the world? At least Frank is up front about what he does. He might throw a hand grenade into a group of nuns to kill a gangster, but he doesn't collapse skyscrapers full of people on accident.

Sorry if our "whining" has offended you, Zen_Hydra. Personally, I find there to be more than enough violence in the real world as it is. I don't particularly feel the need to see any more of it in comics. I find it refreshing to see (and, therefore, RP) characters who are capable of finding and utilizing solutions OTHER than lethal force - since God knows we can't seem to find any in real life.

-T

[zen_hydra]

It is ludicrous to say that you want to roleplay in a game that has non-lethal solutions to problems and then play a game where you knock people out with fireballs and razor sharp claws. If you are so set against death in your games, then it is only logical for you to be against violence at all. You should be playing a game with no combat, because combat begets violence, and violence begets death. It is simple-minded to pretend that you can shred someone with your adamantium claws just enough for them to pass-out, "...but we don't need to worry about organ damage, or bleeding, or any of those things because this is super heroic." Let me clue you in, heroes are only heroes because they do what needs to be done when it is dangerous to do so. If there is no real threat of death or permanent injury, then they aren't doing anything special. The word heroic, is literally defined as showing courage and willingness of self-sacrifice. A normal man who runs into a burning building to save a child is a hero. Superman doing the same act is not. There was no more threat to Superman from the fire than there is for him to blink. If you take death (and therefore the risk of death) out of battling evil you are castrating heroism.

[TheTemplar]

Hmm...maybe that's why I mentioned earlier in this very thread that Wolverine is on my short list of "Questionably" heroic heroes as well. You might want to try to gather all the facts about what someone is saying before you blast their points as being "ludicrous."

I don't have an issue with violence per se, though I don't see the need for the Extreme violence that you seem to be so in support of in light of your previous posts. In my games, people DON'T shred eachother with their razor sharp adamantium claws. Why? Two reasons.
1. Because it WOULD cause organ/tissue damage and would violate the Code vs. Killing that the players have and
2. Because none of us have razor sharp adamantium claws to begin with! Why? SEE REASON 1.

Look, I'm NOT here to try to change your mind about comic book violence and how it should or should not be portrayed. I'm not even here to tell you the best way to translate that into your Champions games. You want to go blood and guts, knock yourself out, but show the same respect to those of us who don't put that in our games and stop bashing our ideas and trying to start a bloody Flame War. Deal?

It's called "Agreeing to Disagree" and it's something that frequently gets forgotten in the world of discussion boards.

-T

[zen_hydra]

Templar,

With a handle like yours I can see why the concept of flames might make you uncomfortable. Since I have named no one specifically when I used words like ludicrous, and whining, I really don't see why you are being defensive. Violence is EXTREME. The power it takes to KO one man is enough to kill another. Your attitude trivializes it. To pretend that violence is something other than what it is, is very, very wrong.

[Balok]

Originally posted by Karma
Stop trying to justify the Punisher.

I wasn't. I think if you reread my entire post, instead of just the part you excerpted, you will see that.

He's escapist comic book fare, but no one sane believes his approach would work well in real life.

[Worldmaker]

This is veering onto a conversation about what makes a hero. I decided to just drag that puppy on out and start the discussion.

Let's get the obvious stuff out of the way: being good at a sport doesn't make you a hero. Neither does starring in a movie or television show, or being a popular recording artist. Fame, in and of itself, is not heroic.

Surviving a dangerous situation (combat, an earthquake, a fire, or even having someone ram your skyscraper with a 747) does not automatically make you a hero. Neither, for that matter, does dying in that situation.

Being in an occupation which could, potentially, put you in a dangerous situation in which you are at risk of your health or life does not automatically make you a hero. Doing your job, regardless of how dangerous the job is *potentially* is still just doing your job, and there are some jobs that inherently present risk.

Besides, if we were going to start calling people heroes just because their jobs were dangerous, there's be a lot more tributes to Alaskan crab fishermen, a career path which carries 292% the fatality rate of the New York Police Department. The ratio goes down some, only 112% the fatality rate, when compared to the New York Fire Department.

So... running into a burning building a rescuing people when youre occupation is "tax accountant" is, in my opinion, inherently more heroic than running into a burning building and rescuing people when your occupation is "fully trained fire fighter".

This point is closely related to the last one: being in the same occupation from which several good and true heroes have come does not automatically make you a hero. Heroism is not associative. You either earn the title on your own or you don't qualify for it.

Do we really want to classify all those cops who have ever been convicted of corruption with someone like LAPD sergeant Herman Escalante, who crawled out onto the *exterior* of a pedestrian bridge, with only his handholds on the chainlink barrier to support him, in order to interpose his own body between that of a potential suicide and the highway below the bridge? No, neither do I.

This is why I grit my teeth whenever I hear all soldiers or police officers or fire fighters called "heroes". Sure, some are heroic. Others are dirtbags. Wearing the same uniform as the heroes does not make a dirtbag a hero.

Being brave is not enough.

Casually putting yourself at risk for death and injury is not enough. Consider that there are 40,000+ highway fatalities each year, and close to 440,000 tobacco-related deaths every year. Which means that every time you get behind the wheel or light up a smoke, you're putting your life at risk. Don't expect anyone to hand you a medal just for driving to the Quick Stop or settling down with a nice Marlboro.

Helping others, regardless of the cost to yourself does not make you a hero in and of itself. Otherwise, where are the medals for Ted Turner, who gave a billion dollars to charity one year, or Bill Gates, who gives about a hundred million a year to various good causes.

In my opinion, what makes a hero is this: a hero makes distinct and individual action that is above and beyond anything that is expected of him, in order to make a change for the better in the world. He does so willingly, without thought of the personal consequences or danger, and solely motivated by the fact that the action he undertakes is necessary. The action he makes need not be profound and worldshaking; indeed, most heroes *aren't* worldshakers. Most heroes are ordinary people who rose to the occasion when the occasion presented itself.

And in case you're wondering, some of the people I consider heroes include Mahatma Ghandi, Rosa Parks, the two Delta snipers in Somalia, and the aforementioned Police Sergeant Escalante.

Just my two cents.

[SuperPheemy]

I agree with nearly that entire post save for one little nit, which I shall now pick, then retire to my Cubicle of Solitude.

Running into a burning building to rescue people makes you a hero. Regardless of your training. Doing it on a regular basis for a pitiful salary, and the promise of a meager pension, makes the risk even more poing.. poign.. poi.. notable.

Other than that, you've hit the nail on the head!

[zornwil]

I include anti-heroes in the "hero" category 99% of the time. I see Punisher as an anti-hero (same as John Constantine although of course Constantine is much more compassionate AFAIK). But I'm really judging off of reading very very few (like 6) of the comics and what I know moreso from reading ABOUT Punisher. I would have to say that a guy who goes out and kills underworld figures wantonly is heroic to me IN THE CONTEXT that he's doing it to the "right" people 99.999% of the time, which is way better than our current system of capital punishment, which I half-heartedly am in favor of (I am troubled by what I think is its racism). So yeah, he's a hero, I don't think heroes have to have any good motivations.

Then again I see Magneto as portrayed in the X2 movies as heroic given the negative portrayal of humans. But that's way more cartoonish than what little I know of Punisher.

[Mutant for Hire]

I tend to focus on heroes as those who risk their lives for others. I don't care if a fireman is paid to take risks, or a soldier. To me heroism isn't about amateur or professional status. Doing something you're not expected to is more heroic than for one who it is expected, but in the end, they are still heroes. And in fact the fireman is probably more heroic on average because he is expected to risk his life over and over. A borderline area are those who work in shelters and other charitable work, dedicating long hard hours to helping others, but not quite risking their lives.

Now this gets back to the Punisher. The difference between the Punisher and others is that the Punisher is focused on killing bad guys and has the redeeming quality of not killing cops. Admittedly one can argue that he's working towards the long term goal of keeping these criminals from harming others but in the end, his is the path of vengence and death to his enemies.

This incidentally does not mean that I am a believer in a code versus killing. There are times when you are dealing with some people who are so dangerous and evil that their continued existance places lives at risk. In those cases, I consider deliberately not killing them to be the selfish action of risking life solely for the purpose of keeping your own hands clean. Someone unwilling to make a personal sacrifice for the good of others.