How to do the "wedge the monster's mouth open" schtick?

[Fitz]

Something came up in the game I was playing in this evening when one of the characters, being attacked by a huge snakey monster critter, wanted to do that classic thing where one props open the monster's mouth with a stick — in this case, a staff. If you've seen "Return of the Jedi", when Luke was being chased around Jabba's pit by that enormous slobber-beast he stuck a bone into its mouth so that it couldn't bite down on him. That's the exact effect we were looking for.

How would you resolve this?

I was thinking along the lines of a Block, with the whole "stick in the mouth" thing being nothing more than SFX. But how would you deal with the ongoing effects — in other words, how to determine how long it takes for the creature to clear the obstruction so that it can go on chompin'?

[Syberdwarf2]

Entangle ??d6, 1 Non-Recoverable Charge, Entangle Only Has 1 BODY

[Doc Democracy]

Entangle was MY first thought as well but I'd have gone for a recoverable charge - finding appropriate stick! :-)

Another thought might be suppress bite attack with a destroyable OAF - the GM can decide how long it lasts depending on the materials to hand and so the damage it takes from the beast in question.

[Tom McCarthy]

If it was a superhero standing in the thing's mouth, I'd have used grab.

For what you're describing, I'd simply impose an OCV penalty to position the stick (maybe -2), and make the beast break the stick (using strength, not HKA) before he could bite again.

[sbarron]

Originally posted by Tom McCarthy
For what you're describing, I'd simply impose an OCV penalty to position the stick (maybe -2), and make the beast break the stick (using strength, not HKA) before he could bite again.

That is along the lines of how I would handle it as well. It is interesting that most Hero gamers initial response to in game effects is to try to define a power or skill to simulate it.

Player: I'll set the glass of water on the table.
GM: Ok, make a dex check to ensure you don't spill the one recoverable charge, glass of water...and if you want to use the glass of water on a regular basis, you'll need to pay the points for it.
Player: But it's just a glass of water.
GM: Right, but the glass of water is Life Support: surviving in desert, one charge...

I'm not trying to take a shot at anybody, because I do it to. I just find it amusing. :)

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Tom McCarthy

For what you're describing, I'd simply impose an OCV penalty to position the stick (maybe -2), and make the beast break the stick (using strength, not HKA) before he could bite again.

Yeah. That's probably the cleanest way. Except that I would impose a hell of a lot more than -2. HITTING the head is already -8, and just whacking away is a lot easier than that fine control. In martial arts, if I could tap someone gently, they were WIDE open. I'd call it about a -12. Now, in the example, the creature (Rancor?) was huge, so already had an extremely low DCV. With Luke's DEX and CSLs, that wouldn't be too hard to simulate in a game. Of course, this runs into the age-old difference between gaming and literature - in the movie, Luke HAD to succeed or it would've been a short movie. But this one is reasonably gameable.

There is a tendency among Herophiles to want to try to shove EVERY single thing you can do into a power construct. Then the next logical step is that you can't do X unless you've paid points for X.

Worst thing you can do. Stifles creativity. Turns the game into "you can do EXACTLY what your character sheet says you can do and NO MORE." Folks who try the game under those conditions get a a bad impression of the game - as though it's more of an engineering exercise than an RPG.

If someone comes up with a clever maneuver, figure out how it would work and let it happen! One of the unique things about an RPG as opposed to other game types is its free-form improvisational nature.

"You've been grabbed by a giant creature and it's bringing you up toward its gaping mouth, which is filled with razor-sharp teeth! WHAT DO YOU DO?"

To limit the responses to what the player can find pre-defined on his sheet does a great disservice to what an RPG should be and usually is.

[Arthur]

sbarron:

You entered your post while I was composing my last one! You think like I do and at the same time!

Sorry. Didn't mean to scare you like that...

Seriously. I liked your take on it. Pithy.

"But it's just a glass of water" :p

[Talon]

Originally posted by Arthur
You entered your post while I was composing my last one! You think like I do and at the same time!

That would be Mind Link, IPE...or maybe a special effect for Precognition.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by Arthur
Yeah. That's probably the cleanest way. Except that I would impose a hell of a lot more than -2. HITTING the head is already -8, and just whacking away is a lot easier than that fine control. In martial arts, if I could tap someone gently, they were WIDE open. I'd call it about a -12. Now, in the example, the creature (Rancor?) was huge, so already had an extremely low DCV. With Luke's DEX and CSLs, that wouldn't be too hard to simulate in a game. Of course, this runs into the age-old difference between gaming and literature - in the movie, Luke HAD to succeed or it would've been a short movie. But this one is reasonably gameable.

.

-12 is way too much of a penalty for trying to hit a creature who's head is large enough to swallow a man whole (or bite one in half, like a large Gator). What I suggest is taking the creatures Size Modifier and subtracting that from the Hit Location penalty.

Ex: A 4 meter long snake (2 hexes, or 3 levels of growth. Size mod -2) wants to swallow our Hero whole. Mr. Hero wants to shove his scabbard into the giant snakes mouth to stop him from doing so. The Gm determines this is a head hit (Hit Location mod -8) but the snake is giant sized (Size mod -2) so the GM determines that the OCV penalty for this maneuver is only -6. Our Hero puts all his skill levels into OCV and goes for broke...

[Gary]

Originally posted by Tom McCarthy
If it was a superhero standing in the thing's mouth, I'd have used grab.

For what you're describing, I'd simply impose an OCV penalty to position the stick (maybe -2), and make the beast break the stick (using strength, not HKA) before he could bite again.

I'd give the monster only casual str, not full str for snapping the stick.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite
-12 is way too much of a penalty for trying to hit a creature who's head is large enough to swallow a man whole (or bite one in half, like a large Gator). What I suggest is taking the creatures Size Modifier and subtracting that from the Hit Location penalty.

Ex: A 4 meter long snake (2 hexes, or 3 levels of growth. Size mod -2) wants to swallow our Hero whole. Mr. Hero wants to shove his scabbard into the giant snakes mouth to stop him from doing so. The Gm determines this is a head hit (Hit Location mod -8) but the snake is giant sized (Size mod -2) so the GM determines that the OCV penalty for this maneuver is only -6. Our Hero puts all his skill levels into OCV and goes for broke...

I'd say your on the right track.

If that big mouth is coming right for you it is going to be much easier to hit. The thing is trying to get you in it's mouth so anything you have in your hand is going to tend to go there anyway. At the very least I would halve the called shot modifier and apply all size mods on top of that, and perhaps apply a grab modifier. Otherwize it is way more difficult than it should be.

If a transport truck is coming right at you it is hard to miss the front grill.

[Blue]

When building it as an entangle, don't forget to give the monster vulnerability to stick entangles ;)

I'm kidding of course. It was a good question, and one I've not had to deal with yet. And the result should definitely be outside the mechanics of building it as a power. It should just be handled off the cuff, like suggested with the OCV mods, etc.

Nicely done posters! Rendezvous back at Herogames base.

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite


Ex: A 4 meter long snake (2 hexes, or 3 levels of growth. Size mod -2) wants to swallow our Hero whole.

Hmm.. I don't think a 4 meter (about 13') snake can swallow someone whole. Their heads aren't big enough. :D

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
Hmm.. I don't think a 4 meter (about 13') snake can swallow someone whole. Their heads aren't big enough. :D

A 4 meter long snake could propably swallow a yak. Of course, it would have to be incapacitated at the time.

[TaxiMan]

WARNING! Graphic images, of a snake that ate a guy in the Amazon:

http://www.strangecosmos.com/view.adp?picture_id=9766

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by TaxiMan
WARNING! Graphic images, of a snake that ate a guy in the Amazon:

http://www.strangecosmos.com/view.adp?picture_id=9766

See... That made me yak.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite
-12 is way too much of a penalty for trying to hit a creature who's head is large enough to swallow a man whole (or bite one in half, like a large Gator). What I suggest is taking the creatures Size Modifier and subtracting that from the Hit Location penalty.


Ummm. I DID mention that a very large creature would already have a very low DCV. Or at least it should. That's one advantage to building it 4th Ed. style with Always On Growth.

"Very low DCV due to large size" or "you get bonusses to hit due to large size" are functionally identical.

To use the Star Wars example again, I'd rate that thing at roughly nine levels of Growth equivalent size. That's a -6 to DCV IIRC. That would give it a base DCV of about -1. Then the maneuver would have to hit a DCV of 11. Difficult, but not outrageously so.

[Vondy]

I think calling it an SFX on a block or a to hit roll works...

As for resolution:

Figure out the BDY/DEF of the object. The monster will have to do enough damage to the object with its strength to destroy it.

[The Monster]

Rather than casual STR, perhaps it would be better to allow the creature to use its Bite attack damage (maybe converted to normal damage, since the stick is lodged between its teeth).
Also, the stick might have its DEF increased by a point or two because it's in an unusual position - standard DEF/BODY for "wood" is for breaking things when you have good leverage and angle of attack.
You might also have the creature make an INT roll to figure out there's other ways to get the stick out than to bite down on it.
All in all, though, all Luke's maneuver really did was distract the rancor for a phase, -- maybe a second one while it looked around for him (PER roll vs Concealment?).

[Blue]

Originally posted by TaxiMan
WARNING! Graphic images, of a snake that ate a guy in the Amazon:

http://www.strangecosmos.com/view.adp?picture_id=9766

That... was... hideous! Of course you did warn me.

How asleep did that guy have to be! I mean, these are not fast snakes. It had to have time to wrap around him, slowly, then squeeze him. Unless he died of somethin else before the snake found him. (Like a heart-attack! I know I'd have one if I woke up and a snake that big was nuzzling up to me)

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Blue
That... was... hideous! Of course you did warn me.

How asleep did that guy have to be! I mean, these are not fast snakes. It had to have time to wrap around him, slowly, then squeeze him. Unless he died of somethin else before the snake found him. (Like a heart-attack! I know I'd have one if I woke up and a snake that big was nuzzling up to me)

First, that series of pics is a well-known hoax. The animal in the first photo had eaten a small pig. The animal which was cut open is a posed shot.

Second, a 4 meter snake is in no way large enough to swallow an adult human. That's 13'. Here's a pic of a 12' burmese python, first one, with the kids holding it. Look at the head. Even unhinging its jaws, the snake could in no way get the shoulders of even one of the kids in the pic down its throat, nor would it try if it killed one.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, the snake in the bottom pic on this page is a 12' burm and its head is right next to the guy's hand who's holding it, and it's not even as big as the hand. That snake probably eats medium rabbits, at best.

http://home.earthlink.net/~chriscorps/RALLC/monthly.htm

The following is a picture of Baby, the world's largest snake. It's a 27 foot, over 400 pound Burmese python. It's not big enough to eat even the kid in the pic with it. Again, humans aren't shaped like food.

http://ahau.nidus.net/ss/home.html

The next pic is Fluffy, probably the largest reticulated python in captivity. Again, even with the forced perspective in the pic, it's clear the snake isn't big enough to eat Bob Clark in the background. (Bob Clark is the preeminent breeder of giant constrictors, and his site www.bobclark.com is chock full of info on reptiles of all kinds.)

http://12.210.130.56/GalleryOne/fluffy01.jpg

Thing is... snakes are just one very big, flexible tube o' muscle. Every one of the snakes in the above pictures could easily kill the strongest adult human without a whole lot of effort. In fact, any of the heavy-bodied constrictors can be a serious threat once they surpass about eight feet or so.

If you assume a fantasy snake to have similar proportions to the burmese python, which is the second heaviest, and probably the largest-headed of the giant constrictors, you'd have to go up to about 40or 50 feet to get one that's a man eater.

I've seen plenty of 12' plus burmese pythons and anacondas, and none of them is anywhere near large enough to swallow an adult human, or most kids for that matter.

[PhilFleischmann]

IMHO, the critter's full normal STR should be used to break the stick (if that's what it decides to do). The jaw muscles are often the strongest ones inthe entire body, especially on preditory carnivorous animals (and even humans). The HKA bite damage may include extra dice to reflect the size/shape/sharpness of the teeth, which would be irrelevent in this case.

If you're already inside the thing's mouth, or close enough, an attack roll might not even be needed. Perhaps a DEX vs. DEX roll, or maybe slight-of-hand if you've got it, to position the stick in the just the right place before the beast can chomp down or twist away.

But wait, there's more: If the monster can open his mouth wider (and is smart enough to do this) the stick can just be dropped. And there's less: biting down on the vertical stick might hurt. Even poked yourself in the palate with a toothpick or had a dentist accidentally jab you? How much PD do you have on the inside of your mouth?

"Aha! But THIS dragon has a tongue shaped like a saw blade and simply cuts the stick in half with it!"

[Blue]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost
First, that series of pics is a well-known hoax.
Good! Now I'm slightly less nauseated.

[Gary]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
IMHO, the critter's full normal STR should be used to break the stick (if that's what it decides to do). The jaw muscles are often the strongest ones inthe entire body, especially on preditory carnivorous animals (and even humans). The HKA bite damage may include extra dice to reflect the size/shape/sharpness of the teeth, which would be irrelevent in this case.


I don't think so. There just isn't any leverage if the stick is wedged from the roof of the mouth to the bottom of the jaw. I know I certainly couldn't exert nearly the same amount of str that I could with my arms or legs. Casual str sounds right to me.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by Arthur
Ummm. I DID mention that a very large creature would already have a very low DCV. Or at least it should. That's one advantage to building it 4th Ed. style with Always On Growth.

"Very low DCV due to large size" or "you get bonusses to hit due to large size" are functionally identical.

To use the Star Wars example again, I'd rate that thing at roughly nine levels of Growth equivalent size. That's a -6 to DCV IIRC. That would give it a base DCV of about -1. Then the maneuver would have to hit a DCV of 11. Difficult, but not outrageously so.

Don't forget that DCV penalties can not lower a creature or vehicles DCV below Zero, no matter how many penalties there are.

And the hit location modifier is to the attackers OCV, and has nothing to do with the defenders DCV, so that doesn't figure in.

Even hitting ther Rancor at size level 9 (-6 size mod) and the rancor being Zero DCV, the attacker would have to have an OCV of 7 to achieve even a 10 or less (50/50) chance to hit this big-assed mouth coming directly for him...(this calculation includes the -8 OCV to hit the "head" location)

[Arthur]

Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite
Don't forget that DCV penalties can not lower a creature or vehicles DCV below Zero, no matter how many penalties there are.

And the hit location modifier is to the attackers OCV, and has nothing to do with the defenders DCV, so that doesn't figure in.


Then that's something with the system that should be addressed. Being large should be figured as a bonus to be hit, since there really should be no limit. Right now (unless I did it wrong), the more nimble a giant is, the more his size can count against him. Huh? How's that?

Good points there, BTW. I didn't realize that.

[Shaun Hendricks]

At any rate...

"Combat Effects" like this are fairly easy. We all get into trouble if we try to work out the exact mechanics of it in the game terms. One persons 2 hex snake is anothers 'monster of horrific' proportions as the previous conversations have so eloquently demonstrated. Best thing to do as a GM is just determine Difficulty of the maneuver. Personally I would've given a -10OCV to the maneuver (regardless of size problems, I'm assuming the proportions are right) because it's a -8 to hit the head and I'm giving another -2 to 'wedge' the stick in and time it with the creatures bite. However, factor growth pluses to hit in and the creature basically aiming right at the character and being too dumb to avoid the trap, I give the Hero about a +5 for creativity and the preceding reasons. For the creatures part, it really just has to make an INT check to open it's mouth a little wider and let the stick fall out. Even a Dog figures this out given time, you know this if you've ever seen one with a tennis ball rammed half way down it's mouth (which over zealous ones tend to have happen in an enthusiastic game of 'fetch'). So realistically, it only gives the Heroes a few phases to down the beast. In "Jedi" the particular creature had more muscles than brains so it just took the only way out it could figure, crush the bone in it's jaws (something it was likley familiar with anyway).

Perhaps, since we are talking movies, the best example of this 'Mexican Stand off' (apologies to any Hispanics, it's the only term I can think of to describe it) is represented in the movie "Dragonheart" with the knight and the Dragon at odds over a precarious bit of dental working.

Food for thought... :P

[Markdoc]

The to hit modifiers are FOR SIZE - not BODY PART.

So, to hit a normal human (human sized, yes?) -0. To hit the head of a normal human (about 1/6th of a human size), -8 (yeah, I know, it should be -6). To hit the mouth (about 1/30th of human size, say) -12.

But to hit the mouth of a Rancor (about half human size, IIRC) -2.

A few extra modifiers to reflect a natural reuctance to stick your arm inside a big maw filled with spiky teeth, might well be in order as well as the dangling-upside-down-being-held-by-one-leg modifier, but otherwise.....

As for the giant DCV thing, even being really nimble isn't going to help much if you are the size of a bus - and the OCV penalty for hitting the head of something the size of a bus, is not going to be that great (unless it's one of those really big dinosaurs, with the teeny-tiny heads, of course). Of course that's a problem for giants, who will now have all attacks aimed at head or groin. Hmmm.....

[Shaun Hendricks]

Originally posted by Markdoc
The to hit modifiers are FOR SIZE - not BODY PART.

So, to hit a normal human (human sized, yes?) -0. To hit the head of a normal human (about 1/6th of a human size), -8 (yeah, I know, it should be -6). To hit the mouth (about 1/30th of human size, say) -12.

But to hit the mouth of a Rancor (about half human size, IIRC) -2.


Well, that would be an interpretation of it. If we wanted to get super technical we could whip out the chart for a snake, (head and uh, body: big chart there). I usually like to start at human norms and modify from there. Thus the -8 for a head shot, (body part irrespective, it's what you are trying to hit) and then factoring in growth, etc. Now, in the case of a snake, they almost double the size of their heads in a strike (assuming a fanged snake) and thus I don't go to the -12 extent you are. So, again, I stick with the -8 as a starting point. Then apply the growth 'to hit' bonuses as well as factoring in what I previously said for an overall bonus of +5. Which comes back to a -3 OCV total. Sounds about fair to me. Any larger of a minus and a player won't commit to the attack, which I would feel would make for interesting play. How we arrive at the figures is mostly irrelevant, so long as the end product is what you want to achieve. If, as a GM, you want a larger negative, you can justify it with whatever you desire. This is all semantics anyway.



A few extra modifiers to reflect a natural reuctance to stick your arm inside a big maw filled with spiky teeth, might well be in order as well as the dangling-upside-down-being-held-by-one-leg modifier, but otherwise.....


I wouldn't make this assumption. If you assume that the characters are trained fighters, and a presence attack is not being made by the snake, there should be no 'natural reluctance' to anything in my opinion. The default should be that it's nothing more than an unorthodox combat maneuver that a trained character would think of and be able to pull off. Now, if the character had disads like a lack of confidence or was a rookie/inexperienced, then I'd agree with applying an additional negative to an unorthodox maneuver, otherwise, I'd chalk it up to improvisation that experienced fighters are capable of.



As for the giant DCV thing, even being really nimble isn't going to help much if you are the size of a bus - and the OCV penalty for hitting the head of something the size of a bus, is not going to be that great (unless it's one of those really big dinosaurs, with the teeny-tiny heads, of course). Of course that's a problem for giants, who will now have all attacks aimed at head or groin. Hmmm.....

Growth negatives implicitly deal with this bit of math. The CV mods are all there under Growth. You don't need to go overboard with the exactness of the numbers. It slows down combat and doesn't really add much to the game. Get it close enough and let the dice fly. If a player really objects and wants to get too anal about the numbers then we'll calculate them out, but the player shouldn't be surprised when their creativity bonus suddenly vaporizes for making a pain in the tush of themselves... :D

This is all my opinion, your playstyle may vary... ;)