Infinite Crisis [Archive] - HERO Games Discussion Boards

Chuckg

Oct 14th, '05, 03:48 AM

Perhaps you can elaborate on what you find so objectionable.

Short version -- everything that's been wrong with DC comics since 'Identity Crisis', on steroids, squared and cubed, all jammed into one cover.

Longer version -- everything sucks, all heroes are either mega-dysfunctional asses or getting gratuitously whacked, prior continuity is ignored at will, it insults the reader's intelligence, and the story is the least new-reader-friendly imaginable, as it assumes you've been buying about $300 worth of lead-in "Countdown To Infinite Crisis" comics (all the limited series plus Identity Crisis and etc.) /and/ have a good familiarity with DC history all the way back to the original Crisis on Infinite Earths, as key players in the plot are characters who literally haven't been seen since then!

One-sentence pithy version -- when Warren Ellis thinks that your storyline is too bleak then you don't just got problems, you got catastrophes.

Oh, and to answer the original question, IMO any DM who tries pulling anything like 'Infinite Crisis' has just committed a flip-the-table offense, and should be duct-taped to the ceiling fan and left for the cat.

Hawksmoor

Oct 14th, '05, 04:09 AM

I'm with you. It's good to see DC cleaning house a little. I'm interested in seeing what the DCU will be like after the 1 year jump. :)

I agree since Johns and Waid have publicly stated that they are cleaning house to get rid of all the angst the DCU is currently wallowing in. They said they want to tell different kinds of stories next year after IC is over.

That said I only recently got back into comics this year and I really don't think the current "DCs slide towards the dark" is that bad. Sure I picked up three superman comics that told the same story, but the idea was to show that Superman was being manipulated.*

I am going to enjoy my two or three comics per month over the year. I am not a line collector so I am not worried about missing events in comics I don't read.

*and I got Ruin, Darkseid and Brainiac BONUS!

Hawksmoor

Tamashii2000

Oct 14th, '05, 04:11 AM

They're simply seting up for the big DC-Marvel crossover series "Infinite Secret Crisis Wars on Multiple Earths" :D

ohh BOOO HISSSSSSSS!:p

Dominique

Oct 14th, '05, 04:38 AM

Actually, I liked it. Yeah I thought i was a littel dark, and very bloody for your average four color DC comic, but I think that was the point. After reading the narration, and the comments of the returning charactes, I think I finally see where they are going (or at least I hope they are going).

After all this crap they've been churning out for the last couple of years. I think they have finally gotten the hint that doom and gloom is not alwayst he way to go. I just hoping that they don't turn around and screw this up (remember Armageddon 2000?), or decide to toss all of this out the window in a couple of years (say the events of Underworld Unleashed or Giffen JLI/JLE run).

Metaphysician

Oct 14th, '05, 04:40 AM

Its kind of fatuous to talk about "clearing out the darkness," when the darkness wasn't *there* before you frickin' started adding it in yourself.

Longshadow

Oct 14th, '05, 05:23 AM

Firmly in the camp of people enjoying the title.:)

And c'mon...what old-school reader didn't get a kick out of the last page revelation?

KA.

Oct 14th, '05, 05:52 AM

For those of us who aren't going to buy this, how about some details?

Or is there already a "spoiler" thread going somewhere?

KA.

Dominique

Oct 14th, '05, 06:08 AM

S
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- You've been warned

Okay, last warning -

MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD

The freedom fighters are killed by the Secret Society of Super Villains, with the exception of Damage, and possibly Uncle Sam.

Supes, Bats and WW are at each others throats in the now destroyed JL Watch Tower. Mongol shows up, and WW tries to kill him but Supes stops her.

Troia is gathering heroes for a battle in space.

Specture apperently kills the wizard Shazam, and destroys the Rock of Eternity. Capt. Marvel rembers his secret.

And to cap it all off, the Original Superman, Kal-L returns along with the Earth-2 Lois Lane, Earth 3 Alexander Luthor, and the Earht Prime Superboy to try and save the day.

Blue

Oct 14th, '05, 06:12 AM

They're simply seting up for the big DC-Marvel crossover series "Infinite Secret Crisis Wars on Multiple Earths" :D
Marvel wouldn't touch that. The word MUTANT doesn't appear anywhere in the title.

rjcurrie

Oct 14th, '05, 06:29 AM

The most complicated thing is just trying to figure out which Superman is which. So far I think we've seen the Earth-1 retcon, the Earth-1 original, and now the Earth-2. :)

Where have we seen the original Earth-1 Superman?

rjcurrie

Oct 14th, '05, 06:37 AM

Firmly in the camp of people enjoying the title.:)

And c'mon...what old-school reader didn't get a kick out of the last page revelation?

As am I, which is why I asked for clarification so I could counter his points as a way to encourage readers of this thread that perhaps the miniseries wasn't the "disaster" he was painting it to be.

And as a big fan of the original Earth-2 (not the current anti-matter universe Earth-2 with the new Crime Syndicate) and the original Crisis on Infinite Earths (although not necessarily of the effects it had on my favorite earth), I absolutely loved the final page.

CBikle

Oct 14th, '05, 06:41 AM

Although they are largely well-written, most of the Infinite Crisis storylines had a lame, half-baked premise.

****SPOILERS BELOW****

- Identity Crisis: The whole mindwipe thing was dumb and had nothing to do with the murder.

- OMAC Project: Batman loses control of his super-advanced spy satellites. This is the 3rd time in three years that Batman's "fail-safe" plan has fallen into the wrong hands (JLA's Tower Of Babylon arc and the War Games storyline). The story is further flawed in that one of the KEY plot elements happens in another comic outside of the miniseries.

- Spirit Of Vengeance: Boring and there've been a few too many "Spectre out of control" storylines.

- Infinite Crisis: Tied too heavily into the other minis and waaay too dependant on continuity and minutiae (and I'm a fan of that stuff) and there's no way it could possibly attract new readers. I don't think somebody new to DCU through Batman Begins or the JLU cartoon are going to know what to make of Batman's mindwipe and killer satellites or the golden-age, Earth 2 Superman.

- Villains United : this one's actually pretty good. Lots of villains and pretty much a self-contained story.

- Rann-Thanagar War: Not as good as VU, but pretty good. Has Hawkman, Hawkwoman, Adam Strange, Captain Comet, et al. Only real complaint is that anytime Adam Strange is used in a story, he should at least once, solve a problem through some obscure scientific trivia like he did in the original Gardner Fox stories.

Savinien

Oct 14th, '05, 06:46 AM

It seems to me that they are catering to the person that has been invested in the DCU and knows all that history.

rjcurrie

Oct 14th, '05, 06:54 AM

Its kind of fatuous to talk about "clearing out the darkness," when the darkness wasn't *there* before you frickin' started adding it in yourself.

Well, of course, a certain amount of this darkness was added as part of the lead up to Infinite Crisis to make things bad enough for the four refugees from COIE to decide to do something about it, when they haven't gotten involved during any of the other events of the last 20 years.

Remember, it's always darkest before the dawn.

Longshadow

Oct 14th, '05, 06:54 AM

And as a big fan of the original Earth-2

I hear ya, Rod. I am a total JSA/All-Star Squadron fanboy. It's really kind of sad.:cool:

CBikle

Oct 14th, '05, 07:03 AM

It seems to me that they are catering to the person that has been invested in the DCU and knows all that history.

Yeah. In many ways it's like the complete opposite of Marvel's Ultimate universe, which was intended to draw in new readers.

From what I understand, all the DC minis are big-sellers (who would've thought that a mini starring Adam Strange would be a big-seller ?), so I guess the strategy is working (at least for the short-term).

Dominique

Oct 14th, '05, 07:06 AM

Yeah. In many ways it's like the complete opposite of Marvel's Ultimate universe, which was intended to draw in new readers.

I think that's what their new "All Star" line is designed for.

rjcurrie

Oct 14th, '05, 07:13 AM

I got the impression that the Earth-1 original Superman was in Superman/Batman #18. I also get the feeling that the E-1 original might be the one that is left when all of this is done.

OK, I thought that might be what you are referrring to. Given Loeb's tendancy to play a bit fast and loose with the details of continuity in Superman/Batman, I assumed that the future Superman seen in that story arc was simply meant to be a future version of the current Superman and that the similarities to the version of the Earth-1 Superman seen in the ending of that arc was simply an homage to Alan Moore's great "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow". I'm not sure it was meant as an indicator that it was actually the Superman from that story.

With that said, it would not surprise me if the Earth-1 Supes did put in an appearance given that we have also seen an adult Jason Todd in the Batman books as the Red Hood who could be interpreted as the original Earth-1 version whose origin was overwritten and an alternate Earth Luthor in Villains United who as far as most can tell has to be the Earth-1 Luthor.

Blue

Oct 14th, '05, 07:19 AM

Aside from a few oddball random issues, I'm not a big follower of the DC Universe. Sure, I've got The Darknight returns, the Byrne reboot of superman, etc., but who doesn't? It's all the bits of DC lore that skate by me most of the time in events like this.

That said, I liked Identity Crisis for the fact that I didn't have to know every single character before I started reading it, and disliked it for what they did to Sue Dibney's past.

But I think I'll wait for Infinite Crisis to come out in the trades. Anytime they start branching a storyline into a dozen titles or more, my eyes glaze over. That worked on me the first time, at Marvel, when I was a teen. Now, not so much.

That said: I'm pleased to see so many people in favor of what they're doing.

I read this morning (on the HeroClix forum) a Marvel Press Release about culling the mutant Hordes through the "House of M" series down to about 5% of the existing mutant numbers. I'm sure they'll take out characters I like, but I think it's in the best interest of hte line to make them again the underdogs. I'll always be leary of attempts to rewrite history, considering how bad some companies have been at doing it.

rjcurrie

Oct 14th, '05, 07:20 AM

I hear ya, Rod. I am a total JSA/All-Star Squadron fanboy. It's really kind of sad.:cool:

Oh, yeah, there was a point in the early 80s where my two favorite comics were All-Star Squadron and Infinity, Inc. I also went digging through the bargain bins at the local comic book stores to get a pretty much complete run of the revived All-Star Comics from the 1970s as well as the continuation of those storylines in Adventure Comics. There was a lot of fun stuff in those comics -- sigh, I still miss the original Helena Wayne version of the Huntress.

rjcurrie

Oct 14th, '05, 07:25 AM

I think that's what their new "All Star" line is designed for.

I just wished they hadn't used the "All Star" moniker on that line, simply because to me that name is associated with the JSA and company -- from the original All-Star Comics in the 40s to the All-Star revival in the 70s and All-Star Squadron in the the 80s.

CBikle

Oct 14th, '05, 07:25 AM

But I think I'll wait for Infinite Crisis to come out in the trades.

I'm not sure how well Infinite Crisis will translate as a trade.

Dominique

Oct 14th, '05, 07:26 AM

Blue

Oct 14th, '05, 07:28 AM

See, it's phrases like "Earth-2" that lose me.

I bet wikipedia will know. They know everything!...

BlackSword

Oct 14th, '05, 07:37 AM

Although they are largely well-written, most of the Infinite Crisis storylines had a lame, half-baked premise.

****SPOILERS BELOW****

- Identity Crisis: The whole mindwipe thing was dumb and had nothing to do with the murder.

- OMAC Project: Batman loses control of his super-advanced spy satellites. This is the 3rd time in three years that Batman's "fail-safe" plan has fallen into the wrong hands (JLA's Tower Of Babylon arc and the War Games storyline). The story is further flawed in that one of the KEY plot elements happens in another comic outside of the miniseries.

- Spirit Of Vengeance: Boring and there've been a few too many "Spectre out of control" storylines.

- Infinite Crisis: Tied too heavily into the other minis and waaay too dependant on continuity and minutiae (and I'm a fan of that stuff) and there's no way it could possibly attract new readers. I don't think somebody new to DCU through Batman Begins or the JLU cartoon are going to know what to make of Batman's mindwipe and killer satellites or the golden-age, Earth 2 Superman.

- Villains United : this one's actually pretty good. Lots of villains and pretty much a self-contained story.

- Rann-Thanagar War: Not as good as VU, but pretty good. Has Hawkman, Hawkwoman, Adam Strange, Captain Comet, et al. Only real complaint is that anytime Adam Strange is used in a story, he should at least once, solve a problem through some obscure scientific trivia like he did in the original Gardner Fox stories.
I agree with the ordering, I enjoyed Villains United and R-T War the most. OMAC was a chore. Day of Venegance was okay, but mostly because of the motley crew of mages that were being used, I liked the cast, but the story was weak.

Identity Crisis was okay, I understand the mindwipe being presented, just not sure if it was presented correctly, it was one of those stories where the heroes discover something unexpected while investigating something unrelated. It should have focused more on Wally or another character discovering the mindwipe as opposed to those involved going, <flashback> "Oh Crap."

CBikle

Oct 14th, '05, 07:38 AM

rjcurrie

Oct 14th, '05, 08:00 AM

Although they are largely well-written, most of the Infinite Crisis storylines had a lame, half-baked premise.

****SPOILERS BELOW****

- Identity Crisis: The whole mindwipe thing was dumb and had nothing to do with the murder.

Yeah, but the mindwipe thing does set some other things in motion.

- OMAC Project: Batman loses control of his super-advanced spy satellites. This is the 3rd time in three years that Batman's "fail-safe" plan has fallen into the wrong hands (JLA's Tower Of Babylon arc and the War Games storyline). The story is further flawed in that one of the KEY plot elements happens in another comic outside of the miniseries.

Yeah, Bats needs better security :) Rucka himself admits that "Sacrifice" should have been part of the the actually miniseries and in fact, the collected version is going to include both "Countdown to Infinite Crisis" and the Wonder Woman issue you mention above.

- Spirit Of Vengeance: Boring and there've been a few too many "Spectre out of control" storylines.

Day of Vengeance, actually. While I agree that this was the weakest of the four lead-in miniseries, I quite liked the main characters, especially Detective Chimp. The main point seems to have been to make magic, a wilder, less-controlled factor in the DC universe.

Infinite Crisis: Tied too heavily into the other minis and waaay too dependant on continuity and minutiae (and I'm a fan of that stuff) and there's no way it could possibly attract new readers. I don't think somebody new to DCU through Batman Begins or the JLU cartoon are going to know what to make of Batman's mindwipe and killer satellites or the golden-age, Earth 2 Superman.

Supposedly, Issue 2 of Infinite Crisis is intended to bring everyone up-to-date on the current state of the universe including a 5 page summary of the history of the DCU pencilled by George Perez. I suspect this will be done when the 4 COIE refugees bring everyone up-to-date on the former multiverse and related matters.

- Villains United : this one's actually pretty good. Lots of villains and pretty much a self-contained story.

Yup, the best of the bunch.

- Rann-Thanagar War: Not as good as VU, but pretty good. Has Hawkman, Hawkwoman, Adam Strange, Captain Comet, et al. Only real complaint is that anytime Adam Strange is used in a story, he should at least once, solve a problem through some obscure scientific trivia like he did in the original Gardner Fox stories.

Pretty much sums it up.

There's also the fifth miniseries which ties heavily into Infinite Crisis, even though it wasn't marketed that way: The Return of Donna Troy. While the first three issues were uninspiring, the fourth issue pretty much revealed that post-Crisis Earth was broken and that Donna Troy, like Power Girl, is the result of improper merging of characters from many Earths. Dark Angel, part of John Byrne's horrible mangling of Donna, is revealed to be not only an alternate Donna who had escaped the merger, but the Anti-Matter's own version of Harbinger. Thus, Donna has become the spiritual successor to the original Harbinger and is gathering heroes to deal with whatever may be happening with the rift that is appearing in space. Who thinks that that rift may be the Anti-Monitor returning?

Dominique

Oct 14th, '05, 08:08 AM

Could be. I'm also wondering if Harbinger will be making a come back. Even though she was "killed" we all know that means nothing lately.

rjcurrie

Oct 14th, '05, 08:10 AM

Actually there's a Post-CRISIS Earth 2 that used to be Earth 3 pre-CRISIS and the only living inhabitant left from that world is Alex Luthor jr. , son of Earth 3's Alexander Luthor, not to be confused with the new Earth 2 Alexander Luthor.

Also, the golden-age, pre-CRISIS Earth 2 Superman is not from the current Earth 2.

And "I don't Know" is on 3rd base.

Does that help clear up everything ?

Yeah, they should have never allowed Grant Morrison to give the name Earth 2 tol his anti-matter universe version of the pre-crisis Earth 3. Also, to be completely accurate, the anti-matter Earth 2 home to the current Crime Syndicate is similar to, but not identical to, the pre-Crisis Earth 3.

Dominique

Oct 14th, '05, 08:18 AM

Grant made a number of changes to the Crime Syndicate earth (most of which I liked BTW), but it will just confuse those who don't know the whole back story. So to help simplify things, here's a link to a little primer that will help bring you up to speed.

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?=261f5541049a19adbbcbd3be9b080562&threadid=46268

As you can see, I've got WAY to much free time today.

CBikle

Oct 14th, '05, 08:20 AM

Yeah, they should have never allowed Grant Morrison to give the name Earth 2 tol his anti-matter universe version of the pre-crisis Earth 3. Also, to be completely accurate, the anti-matter Earth 2 home to the current Crime Syndicate is similar to, but not identical to, the pre-Crisis Earth 3.

*****SPOILER****

Actually, I like the idea that the new CSA earth is called Earth 2.

The big mistake was dredging up Alex Luthor, the E1 Superboy (or is he the one from Earth Prime ?) and the E2 golden age Superman. Just a lot of confusing baggage that'll alienate potential new readers. Long-term, DC should be going in the opposite direction.

Tamashii2000

Oct 14th, '05, 10:58 AM

Marvel wouldn't touch that. The word MUTANT doesn't appear anywhere in the title.

Infinite crisis on mutant earths?

keithcurtis

Oct 14th, '05, 11:12 AM

Long-term, DC should be going in the opposite direction.
That's what they've been doing for the last 20 years. So much pre-Crisis has been slipping in through the cracks, I don't think it really matters.
Krypto
Pulp Science Krypton
All Martians are weakened by fire

Keith "Hmmm. I have an idea for a thread..." Curtis

CBikle

Oct 14th, '05, 11:23 AM

That's what they've been doing for the last 20 years. So much pre-Crisis has been slipping in through the cracks, I don't think it really matters.
Krypto
Pulp Science Krypton
All Martians are weakened by fire

That stuff I don't have a problem with (Bring on the Legion Of Super Pets.).

I just think it's a bad idea to reintroduce confusing concepts that are now even more confusing and convoluted ("That's the golden age Superman, he was the original Superman of Earth 2, but he lives with the Lois Lane of Earth 2 and the Superboy of our earth, Earth Prime. They all live together with Alex Luthor, from Earth 3, in a pocket dimension that he (alex) created. Nobody remembers them anymore, because their earths merged with ours. In fact the only people that remember are Psycho-pirate, Shazam and Grant Morrisson (from when Grant guest-starred in Animal Man)."

Dominique

Oct 14th, '05, 01:11 PM

Here's a very funny page by page breakdown of the book.

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=46414

Lord Mhoram

Oct 14th, '05, 02:08 PM

I used to love Infinity Inc. (along with the Teen Titans), but COIE killed it. IT was one of the casulities of the last big Crisis. I'm hoping (however futile it may be) that we'll see the return of Helena Wayne, and the other Earth-2 heroes, but I doubt it. :(

Yeah. I hear ya. One of the reasons I love The current JSA is that it is, in some ways, a sequel to II, given they are using the post crisis versions of the characters but we have seen Fury, Powergir;l, Brainwave Jr, Obsidian, Jade, and others. I love that about the comic. :)

Sketchpad

Oct 14th, '05, 02:40 PM

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With the events of the "Return of Donna Troy", it's likely that Donna may take up Harbinger's role, as she can access Harbinger's files and such :)

Dominique

Oct 14th, '05, 03:34 PM

Yeah. I hear ya. One of the reasons I love The current JSA is that it is, in some ways, a sequel to II, given they are using the post crisis versions of the characters but we have seen Fury, Powergir;l, Brainwave Jr, Obsidian, Jade, and others. I love that about the comic. :)

Yeah, but look at what they did with a lot of the II characters. Obsidian and Brain wave went bad. Nukeleon/Atom Smasher is dead. Jade, well that could be its own thread, and Northwind was running around with Black Adam.

Lord Mhoram

Oct 14th, '05, 03:38 PM

Yeah, but look at what they did with a lot of the II characters. Obsidian and Brain wave went bad. Nukeleon/Atom Smasher is dead. Jade, well that could be its own thread, and Northwind was running around with Black Adam.

Well Brainwave was being controlled by the worm that was a Capt Marvel Villian... and I can agree with you to a point, but it is still cool to at least have them onscreen. :straight:

Super Squirrel

Oct 14th, '05, 03:58 PM

and people complain about Marvel...

Chuckg

Oct 14th, '05, 05:50 PM

Warren Ellis' response to a recent NYTimes article about the new direction of DC comics:

bad signal
WARREN ELLIS

The worst thing about the big allergy attacks now is that they depress my immune system and I pick up some disgusting bug a day later. My nose has stopped working. It is not funny.

No, really.

The New York Times arts section today has a large feature on the new DC, home of Grim Fin-Headed Arserape. Rather than Mark Waid's happy shiny take on it -- which is essentially that once they get through all this Dark Stuff things will be lovely again -- grim fin-headed Greg Rucka is heard to say that when the fans call it too dark, it means they're scared.

(And I'm sorry, Greg, but I cannot resist the comedy of applying the prefix "grim fin-headed" now.)

They're an odd mix, the four DC guiding lights of the moment. Grant's superhero stuff operates on what he *thought* Silver Age comics were like, not what they were *actually* like. Waid talks a good happy shiny game, but his work is often remarkably bitter. Geoff Johns comes off as the classic DC "respectful" guy. Greg, as a storyteller, is incredibly egoless -- it's almost impossible to find a signature to his writing. It's a far weirder mix than it looks at first glance.

I keep an eye on these things, when I have the time, because I want to be aware of what they'll do to the market as a whole. Their forthcoming 52-part weekly series may stretch a lot of budgets. And I need your money more. For cold remedies.

On another message board I frequent, a poster had a rather pithy response to this article. (mildly edited for language)

Newsflash kiddies: When Warren "Wildstorm" Ellis tells you your story is too dark, YOUR STORY IS TOO [BLEEPING] DARK!!!

Theron

Oct 14th, '05, 07:09 PM

I liked it. Then again, anything with Kal-L in it is OK by me, and it looks like he's going to do a whole King Arthur number of these snivelling brats and remind them of what heroism really is. One wonders what Conner Kent's reaction will be to seeing someone who actually wants to be Superboy flying around.

In fact, it put me in such a mood for Big Crossover Crisis stuff that I had to go buy the trade edition of the original Crisis. Now I have an overwhelming urge to run Reality Storm, but am going to have to wait for my game to actually get itself established before I launch something like that.

CBikle

Oct 14th, '05, 07:53 PM

Warren Ellis' response to a recent NYTimes article about the new direction of DC comics:

For a guy who says he's disinterested in super heroes, Ellis seems to spend a lot of time thinking about them. Plus, as usual, he misses the point:

My problem with the recent DC stuff, isn't that it's too dark.

It's too stupid.

Meltzer, Johns, et al have done a fantastic job executing some really dumb ideas (these guys could've made the "Spider-Clone" story arc work) that have led to the current loopy premise of superheroes having hissyfits with each other while the universe, literally, is falling apart around them.

Superman is even more whiny, judgemental and small-minded than a born-again Christian.

Batman, yet again, has let his "doomsday plan" fall into the wrong hands and is now indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousands, but somehow, he still has the time to lecture Superman and Wonder Woman about "stepping over the line".

Really silly concepts, but with good dialogue and art.

Balabanto

Oct 14th, '05, 08:29 PM

Well, I think the idea here is that BATMAN, somehow, is starting to remember all of the events of Pre-crisis, or, that because he WAS mindwiped, that caused him to have memories about OTHER things that he wasn't supposed to know.

This would explain a lot of his behavior, as unlike everyone else, who became REALLY different, Bruce Wayne is still a NORMAL HUMAN. He's still the SAME GRIM GUY.

I can actually cite an example of why this makes sense. You're the grim character. Suddenly, everyone else is as grim as you are. "Hey, wait, I'm the creepy grim guy. What the HELL are you beacons of sweetness and light doing?"

Personal Example, from a Hero System Tournament final round that I participated in at GENCON a couple years ago.

Defender unloads a 12d6 EB on an agent, and the agent takes 8 out of 10 possible body AFTER defenses.

I'm playing Nighthawk. "Glad to see you're coming around to my way of thinking, Defender..."

But the difference is, this has gone so far BEYOND that point that Batman, pretty much, as a normal human, can't recognize these guys.

My problems here are all 4th wall problems. Earth 2 Superman comes back from beyond the fourth wall?

Would you like some crack with your crackhouse in the timestream? This is ridiculous.

The Spectre attacks Shazam, after being convinced that magic is evil? Only if the Rock of Eternity IS the crackhouse in the timestream.

When this is over, I REALLY, REALLY hope that Geoff Johns retires if there's even a single loophole, because if I was running this, the way I would do it would be to change the world THEN, so that it doesn't affect NOW.

Of course, to do this, you only need to do one thing.

Eliminate the deadly onus of...George Perez's Wonder Woman.

ALL Post Crisis On Infinite Earths problems can be directly traced back to George Perez's Wonder Woman.

greypaladin_01

Oct 14th, '05, 08:59 PM

ALL Post Crisis On Infinite Earths problems can be directly traced back to George Perez's Wonder Woman.

Ok... I'll bite. How? :confused:

keithcurtis

Oct 14th, '05, 10:34 PM

Ok... I'll bite. How? :confused:
Ditto. How does this affect Hawkman for instance?

Keith "Mr. Curious" Curtis

zakueins

Oct 14th, '05, 10:40 PM

Wow, so maybe I should get to dusting off the World's Finest/DC reboot comic scripts, for when the whole Infinite Crisis thing crashes and burns. :D

Big Willy

Oct 15th, '05, 01:55 AM

GothKidSamurai

Oct 15th, '05, 09:21 AM

- Infinite Crisis: Tied too heavily into the other minis and waaay too dependant on continuity and minutiae (and I'm a fan of that stuff) and there's no way it could possibly attract new readers. I don't think somebody new to DCU through Batman Begins or the JLU cartoon are going to know what to make of Batman's mindwipe and killer satellites or the golden-age, Earth 2 Superman.

Actually, the first comic book I picked up in YEARS was the Countdown to Infinite Crisis thing with Blue Beetle and I've been hooked since.

CBikle

Oct 15th, '05, 10:00 AM

Actually, the first comic book I picked up in YEARS was the Countdown to Infinite Crisis thing with Blue Beetle and I've been hooked since.

Yeah, but how familiar are you with DC and its history over the last 20+ years ?

Someone, who has never really read comics, but who's interest has been sparked by Batman Begins, would have no idea what to make of Countdown or the related miniseries. "Mindwipes ? Omacs ? Who is this other Superman and why is he old ? What the hell am I reading ?"

Some potential new readers might be intrigued by this stuff, but most would find it indecipherable.

casualplayer

Oct 15th, '05, 11:26 AM

This thread seems kinda NGD, but still good. Let's see if we can steer it towards gaming.

With what has gone on, would you still allow Zatanna or Batman to be on the team? I would ask about WW also, but role-playing games are infamously tolerant of an occasional head being ripped off. Zee, admittedly a mixed-up kid with nigh-limitless power at the time, mind raped many people. This is a matter of course at Marvel (Professor X twice daily before breakfast) but almost exclusively villainous at DC. I don't care if the satellite JLA voted (should have been ANY member could have vetoed, not some stupid majority rule manure) Zatanna committed a crime that should be prosecutable. Don't your campaign worlds have psi-crime law?

Batman is criminally responsible for a mounting number of deaths. Rocket Red? Spoiler? We'll give him a pass on Overthrow under the Scourge Lameness Cleanup Amendment which the OMACs started out operating under. Why is he not in jail? He is unworkable as a hero and unpalatable as a teammate. He may be able to mount a good insanity plea but he is all about the premeditation. He has left his loaded guns, bought for home protection, lying out for the kids to find way too many times. Sure he's great for plot ideas but would you allow a PC to get away with this? Most of our game worlds have Mechanon being created by a PC a la Ultron; do you hold them responsible for what he does, and if not, why not?

WW has 10 pt Perk: Diplomatic Immunity-Ambassador of Sovereign Nation. She could just say "Because he displeased me" and everyone would have to just take it. Is the DC universe so dumb they don't ask where the video of her snapping Max Lord's neck came from? Typewriter experts were coming out of the woodwork for Bush's military shirking letter; where are Diana's defenders? The most justifiable of actions of late by the DC's Big 3 is the one catching the most grief. In game I would milk this for some soul-searching but Wonder Woman could stay and continue to play.

I am enjoying a good portion of this mega-series (Infinite Crisis, Identity Crisis, OMAC Project (sorta,) Villains United, Donna Troy) but the longer it goes on the more I feel like Maxwell Lord. I am watching gods at play in my (DC's) world without consequence.

Blue

Oct 15th, '05, 11:35 AM

I tend to think that Batman's @$$ would be bounced off of the JLA in my continuity. But the thing about him is he's one of those people you want to keep an eye on, and that's harder to do if you alienate him.

I've got Issue 1 now. I wasn't planning on picking it up, but I had a free morning and happened to be near a comic store, so....

I'll give my verdict later.

Steve

Oct 15th, '05, 11:42 AM

I am watching gods at play in my (DC's) world without consequence.

This statement does bring things back to the gaming table in a way. How much of an influence do "normal people" have in a campaign? How much influence should they have? Are they mere window dressing, while the gods in spandex go about their lives, play their ego games and have their battles with each other? Do the superpowered in your campaign really care about the non-superpowered, deep down inside? How does that DNPC of Mr. Superhero really feel about people with powers? For that matter, how does Mr. Superhero feel about the non-powered people in his circle of friends, family and acquaintances? Are they somehow "less real" than his buddies at the superteam HQ or those supervillains that keep showing up looking to break his jaw?

I've played in campaigns where the PCs tend to get bubbled up with only each other and fellow superhumans for the major interactions. How have others dealt with this in their campaigns?

greypaladin_01

Oct 15th, '05, 01:38 PM

Well I would say that it helps illustrate the only real flaw in the genre. Once there is a super-man, where does that leave the rest of us.

If you try and go with the most relistic approach to what would likely happen you end up with something that makes Marvel's "Days of Future Past" seem warm and fuzzy.

The opposite end of the specturm leaves you with normals humans being obsolete and easily ignored. Think the early issues of Kingdom Come but with less hope.

edit// I got jazzed up and hit send to soon

This leaves comics (and games) in a quandry. How do you keep things in a middle ground. Or even should you.

As far as I'm concerned. Infinite Crisis is an attempt to clean house by DC not bring on new readers, much as the original Crisis was. In the "one year later" storyline that will follow. THEN books will target new readers hard. Right now however DC is attempting to bring attention to all the flaws that have crept into (or placed in with bad writing) all the major characters over the last few decades. With luck in the aftermath we will have a DC universe that can go back to having humans (and robots, aliens) that while they may still have flaws are at their core heroic.

Blue

Oct 15th, '05, 02:47 PM

Well, just finished reading it. I think the closing page was very good. It hints at the end of the darkness that the publishers talk about. They made the book dark and nasty and then dropped some golden age on us. I like that.

As for the rest, I had nothing invested with the characters who died and that typically makes easier to see them killed off, you'd think. But It really did in most cases feel gratuitous.

And that's the problem with making a book with a scope this big. It's just NOT possible to make every death have a deep meaning. They're fire-and-forget deaths. And that's too bad.

For the most part, I like it. But the true test of anything like this is how it ends up. And I sure hope issue two has more hope and less whining and finger-pointing.

GothKidSamurai

Oct 15th, '05, 03:05 PM

Yeah, but how familiar are you with DC and its history over the last 20+ years ?

Someone, who has never really read comics, but who's interest has been sparked by Batman Begins, would have no idea what to make of Countdown or the related miniseries. "Mindwipes ? Omacs ? Who is this other Superman and why is he old ? What the hell am I reading ?"

Some potential new readers might be intrigued by this stuff, but most would find it indecipherable.

All I really knew of DC was the old Batman cartoon, and the novelizations of Batman and Superman's "deaths" when I was like 12.

keithcurtis

Oct 15th, '05, 03:39 PM

Zee, admittedly a mixed-up kid with nigh-limitless power at the time, mind raped many people. This is a matter of course at Marvel (Professor X twice daily before breakfast) but almost exclusively villainous at DC. I don't care if the satellite JLA voted (should have been ANY member could have vetoed, not some stupid majority rule manure) Zatanna committed a crime that should be prosecutable. Don't your campaign worlds have psi-crime law?
I continue to contend that the whole mind-wipe is a non-issue that is only being debated because the writers wanted some controversy. As you noted, it is a common occurence at Marvel, and has been used many, many times in DC. Most notable example would be the "Super-Hypnosis-Kiss" from Superman II.
Actually, given what usually happens to villains who discover Batman's identity, a mind-wipe could be seen as extremely merciful.

Keith "look into my eyes..." Curtis

ChaosDrgn

Oct 15th, '05, 04:00 PM

true cover for issue #2

Theron

Oct 15th, '05, 04:04 PM

I continue to contend that the whole mind-wipe is a non-issue that is only being debated because the writers wanted some controversy. As you noted, it is a common occurence at Marvel, and has been used many, many times in DC. Most notable example would be the "Super-Hypnosis-Kiss" from Superman II.
Actually, given what usually happens to villains who discover Batman's identity, a mind-wipe could be seen as extremely merciful.

Keith "look into my eyes..." Curtis

Hell, IIRC, back in the 70s, Superman used "Kryptonian Hypnosis" on a couple of occasions to cover up for lapses in his secret ID.

Chuckg

Oct 15th, '05, 04:04 PM

I might point out that despite the writers' insane contention that Batman is somehow responsible for the deaths of the OMAC Project, he isn't.

The only part of it that Batman built was Brother Eye, the surveillance satellite -- and he didn't even make it an AI, it spontaneously 'awakened' and went rogue. He did *not* build the OMAC nanotech -- that was Lexcorp, using reverse-engineered B-13 technology. He did *not* enslave innocent people into wearing the nanites -- that was Maxwell Lord, using the Lexcorp tech. And he did *not* program Brother Eye into being a psychotic meta-hating reincarnation of Bastion.

And yet, to force the plot through, they pretend it's all Batman's fault and none of the rest happened, despite THE OMAC PROJECT limited series being devoted to the specific purpose of showing all this happening.

It makes no damn consistent sense, even with /itself/. It's horribly sloppy writing.

casualplayer

Oct 16th, '05, 06:28 AM

Suleyman Rashid

Oct 16th, '05, 09:21 AM

With the events of the "Return of Donna Troy", it's likely that Donna may take up Harbinger's role, as she can access Harbinger's files and such :)

What ever happened to Harbinger, anyway? For that matter, what ever happened to Pariah?

SatinKitty

Oct 16th, '05, 11:08 AM

I don't do Comic Books. Cocaine is cheaper. :D

ChaosDrgn

Oct 16th, '05, 12:07 PM

What ever happened to Harbinger, anyway? For that matter, what ever happened to Pariah?

Harbinger was killed by Parademons/Darksied in Superman/Batman during the Supergirl storyline, Pariah was recently killed in one of the mini-series/crossovers that lead into IC

Profit

Oct 16th, '05, 12:25 PM

I thought Pariah couldn't die? Isn't that what it says in COIE? Also, Anyone else think the only Kal-L is back is to kick Kal-EL in the cape and make him realize what he is supposed to be again, a hero. It just dawned on me while reading this thread, Superman has been acting real super post-crisis, just not real heroic, I mean, they had to "kill him" in order to make him be heroic. And post crisis, I know I have a problem with Kal-El, I just couldn't put my finger on it, and this is what it is. He isn't a hero anymore, he is going through the motions. I remember pre-crisis, I never had that problem with Kal-L.

Dominique

Oct 16th, '05, 12:58 PM

It's been many moons since I read my copies of COIE, but IIRC, Pariah couldn't die, that was his curse, to live forever. As far as Harbinger getting killed goes, I think she's about as dead as Jason Todd. As soon as a writer feels like bringing her back, he will.

Log-Man

Oct 16th, '05, 01:06 PM

It's been many moons since I read my copies of COIE, but IIRC, Pariah couldn't die, that was his curse, to live forever.
Quite correct, Pariah can't die. At least, not within normal continuity.

But this isn't normal continuity, is it? :eg:

The Main Man

Oct 16th, '05, 02:22 PM

So far, I'm liking all of this Infinite Crisis stuff.
I really got into comics because of Identity Crisis.

I currently get Plastic Man, Firestorm, JLA, JSA, Infinite Crisis, All-Star Batman & Robin, The Boy Wonder, Ultimate Spiderman, Ultimate X-Men, Ultimate Fantastic Four, The Ultimates, and many other things that catch my interest, mainstream or not.

I still don't know half of what there is to know about DC or Marvel, but I work at that comic shop know, so I learn one way or another.
So how's that for new readership?

RDU Neil

Oct 16th, '05, 03:04 PM

As I've posted in many other threads about Silver Age concepts of heroism vs. the Modern age grim & gritty...

Silver Age was flawed because it all depended upon the writer to somehow allow some last second miracle of power-use, or rabbit-from-the-hat discovery coupled with "somehow nobody really gets hurt" situations... and this allowed the heroes to be these squeaky-clean "killing under any circumstances is wrong" freaks... because they existed in contrived worlds where this actually made sense.

The modern grim 'n gritty had potential... except that it was horribly executed because while it allowed the villains to be really nasty, horrific murderers... and the heroes could be more aggressive and vicious... what they didn't do was change the cause and effect of the world. Villains never seemed to really "end" thus when they came back repeatedly, they didn't just tie Gorden to a big penny again... they slaughtered a bus full of nuns again! These horrific acts played out over and over... yet for some reason, the heroes were supposed to subscribe to some bizarre code vs. killing that makes absolutely no sense in this new, modern, grim 'n gritty world. The heroic effort of trying to take high road of "stop 'em and turn them over to the justice system" was insanely flawed because the justice system was proven to be incapable of handling the villains, who just got nastier and more bloody and awful with every return. It became NON-heroic to let the villains live... every hesitation and kid glove action by the heroes allowed hundreds to thousands of people to die... yet the heroic decision of "I don't want to do... I find it distasteful and awful... but I likley have to kill the Joker, because no other method of stopping him has proven effective."

Because of the mass media, characters are product, can't really "end a story" because we have another issue next month mentality... what has been created is a world with zero verisimilitude. As ridiculous as the Silver Age was... and as extreme as the Iron Age (in other comic universes) could be... the current DCU is the most unbelievable of all, because they can't figure out what they want to be.

The Marvel Ultimate universe really works... as grim as it can be, it is consistent and does not flinch from the repercussions of it's grimness.

The Wildstorm Universe... while horribly written back in the '90s (and people still think of it that way) has a strong consistency within it in terms of tone and repercussions these days.

On the opposite end, for Silver Age feel... try the ABC Universe. Tom Strong, Terra Obscura, Top 10... those are solid, fantastic, surreal Retro-Silver style worlds... but as crazy as they are, internally consistent in tone and feel.

DC just has had zero consistency in vision or concept. It doesn't know what it wants to be, and has no strong editorial vision to coral the editors and writers into that mode. I doubt we'll ever see such, though it wouldn't be that hard. Slim down the true DCU titles a bit... allow for a lot more Elseworlds style titles to tell all the non-continuity stories... but have a ten to twenty years plan for the true DCU titles (including aging of characters and such, IMO... but that will never happen).

I'm just lucky I don't pay for the most of the comics I read, or I'd be really upset. This way I can be a little more philosophical about it... even if I don't like it.

assault

Oct 16th, '05, 03:38 PM

DC just has had zero consistency in vision or concept. It doesn't know what it wants to be, and has no strong editorial vision to coral the editors and writers into that mode. I doubt we'll ever see such, though it wouldn't be that hard. Slim down the true DCU titles a bit... allow for a lot more Elseworlds style titles to tell all the non-continuity stories... but have a ten to twenty years plan for the true DCU titles (including aging of
characters and such, IMO... but that will never happen).

Frankly, DC needs more comedy/light-hearted titles. Stuff like Blue Devil, Blue Beetle, JLI, etc.

"Consistency in vision or concept" is undesirable. It simply means that all titles have to follow the current fad.

I would prefer to see DC publish a mixture of "mature", "horror", comedy and, well, standard Bronze Age titles, rather than have everything the same. Of course this means less consistency - but that's a small price to pay for having a choice as what you can read.

RDU Neil

Oct 17th, '05, 05:16 AM

Frankly, DC needs more comedy/light-hearted titles. Stuff like Blue Devil, Blue Beetle, JLI, etc.

"Consistency in vision or concept" is undesirable. It simply means that all titles have to follow the current fad.

I would prefer to see DC publish a mixture of "mature", "horror", comedy and, well, standard Bronze Age titles, rather than have everything the same. Of course this means less consistency - but that's a small price to pay for having a choice as what you can read.

And I despise light hearted... go figure. You are showing your age by naming those seminal "post-Crisis" titles. Heck... I read 'em back then, too... hated 'em. I was much more a Vigilante guy myself... or Denny O'Neill's Question. Supers are people with great power enacting extreme violence. I want to see that taken seriously... not done for laughs.

Not to say that humor isn't an effective part of the story, but it shouldn't be the POINT of the story. (Certainly not for more than an issue...)

Again... by narrowing the scope of the DCU, they can publish more non-continutiy stuff to satisfy lots of tastes. Marvel's Ultimate line does this really well. A tight group of comics with their own continuity. I don't read regular Marvel anymore. (Well, Astonishing X-Men for Whedon... but that's it.) DC should do this.

And yes... I want a line of comics that has just a few writers and tight editorial control, so that the "universe" created has a consistent, tight feel to it. If you want Laugh Riot Universe... great... have Giffen, Maguire and DeMatteis create one and enjoy... just don't make it part of Batman going after Mr. Szaz or the Joker on a murder spree.

I read comics for the gestalt universe they create. No one issue or story means anything except as a piece of a larger, coherent whole. When that larger whole is fractured and inconsistent and makes no sense... then all the individual pieces lose meaning.

If you are going to have continuity... do it right. Or don't do it at all. The other option is to have every comic just stand on it's own... no crossovers, no shared universe. That would be fine with me, too. Then you have tons of comics like Ex Machina or Noble Causes or 100 Bullets... and you read those that you like. Trying to find something halfway in between clearly doesn't work.

Big Willy

Oct 17th, '05, 07:37 AM

Blue

Oct 17th, '05, 07:46 AM

I have no problem with comedic books, so long as they don't try to introduce it randomly into a series. I think of the Issue of the Incredible Hulk that featured "Rocket Racoon".

A comedy based series is fine alongside the other titles. She-Hulk had a great sense of wimsy, played of of the rich history of the Marvel Universe, and introduced silly things like the idea that Marvel Comics being "legally binding" records of actual events. So Lawyers in super-powered court cases would site "Captain America #217" as precedent. I would not expect (nor want) that bit of fun to seep over into other comics. But in it's own little world there, it's great.

RDU Neil

Oct 17th, '05, 07:58 AM

I'm with Assault. I liked JLI and The Question.

The wealth of a collaborative universe is precisely that you can have series with different tones all happening at once. So somehow, however hard Batman tries, the twisted psychetecture of Gotham keeps spewing forth more monstrous grotesques for him to fight; but meanwhile in LA-LA Land the Blue Devil can crack jokes while facing off against his enemy-of the-month and then retire to the poolside for a cold one without a second thought. You don't have to buy both books if you prefer one style to the other; but why deny the opportunity for a team-up where Bats can be as appalled by the Devil's sunny dilletantism as BD is by the Caped Crusader's breathless monomania?

The real world has that kind of emotional range; why should superhero comics have to be one thing or the other?

Bringing the real world into it is the wrong tact. Real world doesn't allow for violence to be silly and inconsequential... not ever. Violence is ugly and painful and causes lasting damage, financial costs, psychological scarring, etc. My big issue here is... you want a character like Major Bummer... a super who doesnt' want to fight and just wants to laze around... ok... but once you begin to enact violence... especially on a regular basis, you have crossed a line into serious. Someone who casually runs around smashing property and blasting people with a pitchfork flamethrower and thinks it's no big deal is more sick than Batman ever was.

All that aside, the fact is that from a dramatic, narrative POV... Batman exists as a reflection of all that the trauma of violence can create. To have him exist in a world where this is not a universal truth, but instead totally situational depending on the whim of the writer of the week... it completely undermines the concept of Batman.

Consistency has nothing to do with taste... it has everything to do with a properly constructed verisimilitude. If the whole world was "Blue Devil" world... great. That is consistent, and such a character as Batman simply can't exist in such a world. To try and have the two meet simply calls into question the essence of each.

It is one of the greatest fallacies of the comic/super tradition... to assume that any character of any genre with any story can exist in the same shared world. It only works if you have writers and editors ignoring the contradictions... and readers too complacent or stupid to challenge the stories.

To bring this back to gaming... one of the things that happens when you try to game/play and emmulate supers, is that all the contradictions and inconsistencies are forced to the front of consideration. One player wants a Batman type... another wants a Blue Devil type... and it becomes impossible to play either of them with any depth or development because juxtaposing them in the same environment shows that they are fundamentally, conceptually different. It may be more subtle, but it is like Superman showing up in the Lord of the Rings. Each conceptually invalidates the other.

Hawksmoor

Oct 17th, '05, 08:33 AM

Neil,

In this we will have to disagree. DC has often, most recently in the Batman/Superman books, shown that the city is the genre for the characters. Importantly, the Blue Devil cannot exist the way he does in Sunny California when he visits Gotham City no more than the gritty "I do what ever I must!" Batman can exist when he goes to LA. Each is altered a bit by having to conform to the surroundings.

Batman becomes Batgod when he is transposed because he has to be everything he is supposed to be in Gotham but without Gotham to ground his Pluto on Earth act he comes off poorly.

For me violence and the consequences of violence exploration have little attraction in what is essentially escapism. I just want to see the Kwikee Mart rebuilt I do not want to go into the personal hell the assistant manager went through as she no longer was able to support her two kids because her work was demolished.

Hawksmoor

ross_winn

Oct 17th, '05, 09:17 AM

I am looking forward to a DC that doesn't have monthly continuity issues just within Batman titles. One unified world was a stupid idea, and the DCU will have multiple continuities when we are done, thank you very much.

CBikle

Oct 17th, '05, 09:31 AM

the DCU will have multiple continuities when we are done.

For awhile...

RDU Neil

Oct 17th, '05, 09:57 AM

For me violence and the consequences of violence exploration have little attraction in what is essentially escapism. I just want to see the Kwikee Mart rebuilt I do not want to go into the personal hell the assistant manager went through as she no longer was able to support her two kids because her work was demolished.

Hawksmoor

And I do... most vehemently. I want to explore EXACTLY what you described above. That is drama and depth of story and meaningful theme. It is the lack of these things in comics that drive me to game, because I want to see how these situations play out. What are the moral choices a PC makes when they look back on the devastation caused by their latest go round with Dr. Death? How does this affect their decisions and life choices? What develops from these situations that provides a consistent depth not to be found in comics?

That is the stuff the makes the slugfests and space battles meaningful... exploring the repercussions of such. It also allows for PCs to change the world, not just be subject to it. If they choose to use their powers in responsible, constructive ways (say creating habitable land from a desert) then they should be rewarded for such, just as they must face the consequences of casual, massively destructive damage.

To have the ability to build and change and shape the world (as I and my players do) there has to be an examination of the repercussions of the use of power... so that successes are meaningful and failures even more so.

CBikle

Oct 17th, '05, 09:58 AM

Silver Age was flawed because it all depended upon the writer to somehow allow some last second miracle of power-use, or rabbit-from-the-hat discovery coupled with "somehow nobody really gets hurt" situations... and this allowed the heroes to be these squeaky-clean "killing under any circumstances is wrong" freaks... because they existed in contrived worlds where this actually made sense.

The modern grim 'n gritty had potential... except that it was horribly executed because while it allowed the villains to be really nasty, horrific murderers... and the heroes could be more aggressive and vicious... what they didn't do was change the cause and effect of the world. Villains never seemed to really "end" thus when they came back repeatedly, they didn't just tie Gorden to a big penny again... they slaughtered a bus full of nuns again! These horrific acts played out over and over... yet for some reason, the heroes were supposed to subscribe to some bizarre code vs. killing that makes absolutely no sense in this new, modern, grim 'n gritty world. The heroic effort of trying to take high road of "stop 'em and turn them over to the justice system" was insanely flawed because the justice system was proven to be incapable of handling the villains, who just got nastier and more bloody and awful with every return. It became NON-heroic to let the villains live... every hesitation and kid glove action by the heroes allowed hundreds to thousands of people to die... yet the heroic decision of "I don't want to do... I find it distasteful and awful... but I likley have to kill the Joker, because no other method of stopping him has proven effective."

I think you could've had both silver and iron age styles co-exist as long as you didn't scrutinize the goofier elements of silver age.

Unfortunately DC did this a long time ago by having Joker kill Jason Todd. By doing this, they drew attention to:

- the silliness of letting a serial-killing crime boss get captured, only to escape and kill more innocents.

- What a bad idea it is to drag a teenager into your "War Against Crime".

csyphrett

Oct 17th, '05, 08:06 PM

And I do... most vehemently. I want to explore EXACTLY what you described above. That is drama and depth of story and meaningful theme. It is the lack of these things in comics that drive me to game, because I want to see how these situations play out. What are the moral choices a PC makes when they look back on the devastation caused by their latest go round with Dr. Death? How does this affect their decisions and life choices? What develops from these situations that provides a consistent depth not to be found in comics?

That is the stuff the makes the slugfests and space battles meaningful... exploring the repercussions of such. It also allows for PCs to change the world, not just be subject to it. If they choose to use their powers in responsible, constructive ways (say creating habitable land from a desert) then they should be rewarded for such, just as they must face the consequences of casual, massively destructive damage.

To have the ability to build and change and shape the world (as I and my players do) there has to be an examination of the repercussions of the use of power... so that successes are meaningful and failures even more so.

You are a lucky man. I have never had a gaming group that even cared about any of this, and pretty much never wanted to change the world at all.

CES

Big Willy

Oct 18th, '05, 01:47 AM

I think you could've had both silver and iron age styles co-exist as long as you didn't scrutinize the goofier elements of silver age.

Unfortunately DC did this a long time ago by having Joker kill Jason Todd.

As voted for by the readership, who clearly had one eye on Frank Miller's hints in DKR about "what happened to Jason", and the other on the "goofiness" of the whole teen sidekick idea. Much of Batman's subsequent darkness proceeds in a straight line from that moment, and rightly so.

But while it was a traumatic event, it wasn't enough to make his peers in the League doubt their own positions. Why not? Because, as he and they both know, they're not really his peers. Batman is out of his depth as a cosmic champion - for him, defeating Mongul, Darkseid or Neh-Bu-Loh isn't just about working up a good sweat and running the miscreant out of town: it's an extreme situation where he has to think outside the box, go beyond his established limits, risk everything on a million-to-one shot... and then go back to Gotham with a fresh lick of paint on his self-confidence and moral certainty. Clark and the others can't help being impressed by his sheer brilliance in deploying the tools he has; but they can still sleep easy in the knowledge that at least they're not twitchy psychopaths who put children in the line of fire.

Big Willy

Oct 18th, '05, 03:40 AM

Bringing the real world into it is the wrong tact.

Tack, or possibly tactic.

The former is a metaphor from sailing; the latter makes it sound like I'm trying to pick a fight, which I'm not.

I actually agree with a lot of what you said in your earlier post about exploring the repercussions of violence. Marvel put out a very good GN a few years ago called "Blockbuster", about the residents of an apartment building fighting for compensation after some superfreaks (the Silver Surfer and some villain I'd never heard of) crashed through it; and there was the classic "Best Man Fall" episode of The Invisibles (later spoofed as the "dead henchman" gag in Austin Powers); but it's not done enough, and I've seen too many episodes of The A-Team to tolerate any more villains crawling unharmed from wrecked helicopters and burning cars muttering "Phew, that was close!".

So while in a 22-page monthly comic you can't linger every possible consequence of every punch/bullet/deathray that's thrown, I do think there's room in the American superhero genre for plenty more blood and guts than has historically been deemed appropriate.

The only thing we really seem to disagree on is the extent to which a superhero universe should be permitted to mash genres together. I think comedy, drama, horror and tragedy can share the same setting; you don't. That's why I mentioned the real world: not to imply that random violence was somehow acceptable in real life, but just because I think ours IS a world that contains all genres of story.

In a superhero comic, there's likely to be fighting: that's how these stories are constructed. But I don't see that one being a bloody gorefest or a slapstick knockabout means the next one on the rack has to be the same. I think it's best that individual series keep their basic attitudes mostly consistent, and save the culture clashes for the team-up titles, or one-off guest shots that actually say something about one character or the other (and I quite accept that I'm asking more there than is usually given); but I don't want to completely do away with the chance of showing the same characters from slightly different angles.

It's a strange world. let's keep it that way.

Hawksmoor

Oct 18th, '05, 05:43 AM

I picked up IC#1 today and I can say I liked it...wholeheartedly.

The team really has been working overtime to mesh all these stories together. True if you had not been reading JSA you might not know who the Freedom Fighters are, and thus would be a bit confused when Uncle Sam, The Human Bomb, Phantom Girl and Black Condor appear only to die. Their presence and the "if you survive this it will make you stronger." statements from the villianous opposition help make the story.

I am of mixed feelings about Grampy Superman and Superboy-Prime coming back into continuity. I like Conner Kent/Con-El, but I can see where he will have to go. Superboy has to be a Legionaire so that his iconic presence can anchor the LSH (Cosmic boy turned fascist I am looking at you!!!), but the Elder Statesman Superman is just unwanted IMO. Superman has a few weaknesses one of them is mind control: Dominus did it, Brainiac did it, Dr. Psycho did it, The Slug did it, and now Max Lord did it. Yes, an out of whack Superman is the world's worst nightmare. But, Superman has great PR and is what many people are not: honestly contrite about his mistakes. When people are injured by him and his actions he cares. So what purpose is ESS going to serve?

I await IC#2 to find out.

Anxiously!

Hawksmoor

Savinien

Oct 18th, '05, 06:39 AM

ESS is going to remind everyone why super-heroes have the word super in front of the word hero. He was the man the phrase was coined around and all the whining, angst, and fallso from grace will be averted by this man, the first, true... Super Man.

Hawksmoor

Oct 18th, '05, 06:51 AM

Ah but how?

That is the catch.

If he is an even more holier than thou boyscout than the existing Superman how does that work?

Would you like an alterego of you jumping out of the closet and saying "Tut Tut! You have strayed far young Savinen! I will show you the true path!"

I am anxiously awaiting the writing on the next issues, hopefully Liefield will not be allowed to do anything on them for the next year.

Hawksmoor

Blue

Oct 18th, '05, 08:07 AM

I could sure use a wiser version of me to help out.

How many issues is this series? (It probably says on the cover, but I forgot to look)

CBikle

Oct 18th, '05, 08:17 AM

Actually, if anything, the golden age Superman's personality was a lot closer to Batman's. He knew if you were full of crap and wasn't above getting cooperation through brute force or duress. He even slapped a woman in a very early issue of Action Comics.

BlackSword

Oct 18th, '05, 09:16 AM

I could sure use a wiser version of me to help out.

How many issues is this series? (It probably says on the cover, but I forgot to look)
I believe its a 7 issue story arc, though I am sure that it will be intertwined through other monthlies.

Vanguard00

Oct 18th, '05, 09:20 AM

I could sure use a wiser version of me to help out.

How many issues is this series? (It probably says on the cover, but I forgot to look)
In "Infinite Crisis"? 52...it's a weekly arc spanning the entire year. After that, the reboot, forwarding one year in advance in comic continuity.

Or, um, did I miss the reference to something else?

Blue

Oct 18th, '05, 10:09 AM

Infinite Crisis is indeed what I was referring to. 52? Wow. Guess when they say infinite...

Savinien

Oct 18th, '05, 10:42 AM

JmOz

Oct 18th, '05, 10:59 AM

Infinite Crisis is a 7 issue mini seres

After the mini series the DCU will be fastforwarded one year (I'm not sure if this means the current stories are happening in 2005 or 2004, not that it matters much)

There will be then a new miniseries called "52" that will be 52 issues long and explain what happened in that year. it will be a weekly book. The name 52 may or may not be a working name.

rjcurrie

Oct 18th, '05, 10:59 AM

"Infinite Crisis" is a 7-issue monthly.

After the 5th issue of Infinite Crisis, all the regular DC Universe books will jump to one year later. Note that Infinite Crisis does not jump a year ahead.

The explanation of what happened in the missing year will be told in "52", a weekly series. At this point, I'm not sure if "52" starts after IC 5 or after IC 7.

Rod

Edit: Looks like JmOz and I posted at pretty much the same time :)

Vanguard00

Oct 18th, '05, 12:05 PM

I knew it was something like that. But I'm still not sure I'm ready for that kind of comic book committment.

Gawd, I miss Quantum & Woody....

Blue

Oct 18th, '05, 12:51 PM

Thanks for the many replies.

I don't have to go a year into the future in order to foresee me with a handful of trade paperbacks.

Hugh Neilson

Oct 18th, '05, 01:04 PM

Here's hoping DC actually manages to keep 52 on schedule so it doesn't take three years to get the 1 year mini on the shelves :idjit:

Dr. Anomaly

Oct 18th, '05, 02:02 PM

Here's hoping they actually live up to their stated intentions of "fixing" things and dragging DC out of the Iron/Rust Age and back into the light.

greypaladin_01

Oct 18th, '05, 06:40 PM

Wow... 52 issue series huh? I think I'll have to agree with Blue. I'll have to clear some space on my shelf for some new trade collections.

Wozer!

Sketchpad

Oct 18th, '05, 06:53 PM

Here's hoping they actually live up to their stated intentions of "fixing" things and dragging DC out of the Iron/Rust Age and back into the light.
Amen to that! :D Rep pour toi :)

CBikle

Oct 18th, '05, 08:48 PM

Here's hoping they actually live up to their stated intentions of "fixing" things and dragging DC out of the Iron/Rust Age and back into the light.

Problem is the guys writing this "solution" are the ones who created it in the 1st place , starting with Identity Crisis (which was entertaining, but a terrible mystery).

Spoiler

I don't see how dredging up Earth 2 Superman, Earth-Prime Superboy and Alex Luthor "simplifies" things.

Hawksmoor

Oct 19th, '05, 07:21 AM

Depends, am I still hot?

I ya wanna 24 COM Sav-baby ya can have a 24 COM in my game. :D

Hawksmoor

John Desmarais

Oct 19th, '05, 08:45 AM

Dr. Anomaly][/B] Here's hoping they actually live up to their stated intentions of "fixing" things and dragging DC out of the Iron/Rust Age and back into the light.

Problem is the guys writing this "solution" are the ones who created it in the 1st place , starting with Identity Crisis (which was entertaining, but a terrible mystery).

Spoiler

I don't see how dredging up Earth 2 Superman, Earth-Prime Superboy and Alex Luthor "simplifies" things.

Depends on what you're trying to fix and whether or not "simplifying" is the same as fixing. Personally, I never found the pre-Crisis multiple Earth's particularly confusing, so I didn't feel it needed "fixing". The "fix," so far, seems to have created more problems than it solved and we now actually seem to have a complicated continuity that before (and it seems to have more broken spots).

While I don't expect it to happen, a split Earth-1 & Earth-2 would make the continuity for the JSA and related characters make more sense and could give back to Superman the distinction of being "the first superhero".

Hawksmoor

Oct 19th, '05, 08:50 AM

See I just don't see how that, Superman as the 1st Superhero, is really important. Sure chronologically the character is started at the dawn of the heroic age but that does not mean that the character has to remain at the dawn of the heroic age.

IMO only the origin of the LSH was utterly thrown out, and with Giffen's run Mon-El/Valor was supposed to fill that gap. ZERO Hour is what really messed up the continuity not Crisis IMO. Crisis made things much simpler...much and this is from a guy that got into comics after Crisis.

Hawksmoor

Blue

Oct 19th, '05, 09:24 AM

Anyone else think it's interesting that Infinite Crisis is generating all this buzz while nobody seems to be paying much attention to House of M?

I'm positing that's because the story itself isn't going to have any impact on the changes to marvel's universe; After they say, do, and kill all the things they had in mind, they'll have Scarlet Witch (or whoever) put the Univese back together in a whole other third way. Whereas IC seems to be changing the world as it goes.

Supreme Serpent

Oct 19th, '05, 09:38 AM

Marvel IMO didn't really push House of M the way DC's been doing IC. Maybe it's partly the change aspect, but I only found out what HoM was about by reading bits about it online. Just by seeing it on the racks at the store and seeing bits in other Marvel books didn't really give me any clue. I just assumed it was some X-thing, and since I don't read the X-books anymore, didn't pay attention to it. Even the sketchbook thing didn't have any real info on what the premise was.

Marvel's been losing me since shortly before Dissassembled. Hanging on to FF and Amazing Spidey at the moment, but may cut them loose before long, esp. Spidey if the keep focusing on the Avengers interactions. Oh, and T-bolts. I haven't really kept up with the mainstream DC stuff for a loooong time, since the Doomsday/Bane stuff. Only steady buy has been JSA, and that wasn't directly affected much by the Identity/Infinite Crisis stuff so far. I've been giving JLA a shot, but we'll see how that goes.

As a primarily Marvel reader in the 80's, I've never even read CoIE. I know what happened and all, but it never had the emotional pull for me it would have for regular DC readers. I read the first 3 Identity Crisis issues, then dropped it. Similarly, Infinite Crisis leaves me cold, and the thought of "52" boggles. I'll try some of the "one year later" things, but I'm not really excited about it. Years and years of mostly junk have not left me excited about "the new new DC". Ok, ramble off. :o

Dr. Anomaly

Oct 19th, '05, 09:46 AM

Depends on what you're trying to fix and whether or not "simplifying" is the same as fixing. Personally, I never found the pre-Crisis multiple Earth's particularly confusing, so I didn't feel it needed "fixing". The "fix," so far, seems to have created more problems than it solved and we now actually seem to have a complicated continuity that before (and it seems to have more broken spots).
http://castle-walls.org/hero/error/rep.png

Hugh Neilson

Oct 19th, '05, 01:09 PM

IMO only the origin of the LSH was utterly thrown out, and with Giffen's run Mon-El/Valor was supposed to fill that gap. ZERO Hour is what really messed up the continuity not Crisis IMO. Crisis made things much simpler...much and this is from a guy that got into comics after Crisis.

Crisis screwed up lots of things

**koff**Hawkman**koff*

**koff**Wonder Girl**koff*

but after 20 more years of continuity, putting it back now would be just as devestating. Hopefully, DC will (has already) put some thought into how the revised continuity, and any wrinkles it generates, will play out.

Blue

Oct 19th, '05, 03:05 PM

SPOILER:

In the last issue, Superman wakes up and the 20 years since Crisis were all a dream.

greypaladin_01

Oct 19th, '05, 04:00 PM

SPOILER:

In the last issue, Superman wakes up and the 20 years since Crisis were all a dream.

Somehow I dont think DC is going to try and pull a Dynasty approach. :p

RDU Neil

Oct 19th, '05, 05:18 PM

Somehow I dont think DC is going to try and pull a Dynasty approach. :p

That was Dallas I think... and aren't you from Texas even? :ugly:

greypaladin_01

Oct 19th, '05, 07:08 PM

That was Dalls I think... and aren't you from Texas even? :ugly:

Oops! You are very right on both counts... Guess I'm just showing my youth. My parents were stationed overseas during that time.. and I was still a kid. Cant belive I got it wrong though... :doi:

Log-Man

Oct 19th, '05, 08:34 PM

Crisis screwed up lots of things

**koff**Hawkman**koff*

**koff**Wonder Girl**koff*

but after 20 more years of continuity, putting it back now would be just as devestating. Hopefully, DC will (has already) put some thought into how the revised continuity, and any wrinkles it generates, will play out.
No, Crisis simplified those things. But, like Hal Jordan, people couldn't let it die.

Editor's offices:
"Remember when Hawkman did (whatever)? That was neat. How do we work that back into continuity?"

"Umm, you don't. That was removed in Crisis."

"I'm gonna work it back in somehow. Trust me, I'll make it work..."

Shudder. Wince. Repeat.

keithcurtis

Oct 19th, '05, 09:35 PM

No, Crisis simplified those things. But, like Hal Jordan, people couldn't let it die.

Editor's offices:
"Remember when Hawkman did (whatever)? That was neat. How do we work that back into continuity?"

"Umm, you don't. That was removed in Crisis."

"I'm gonna work it back in somehow. Trust me, I'll make it work..."

Shudder. Wince. Repeat.
That's true to an extent. With a slight variation, we had things like:
"Hey, we're still using Wonder Girl. But will she work with what Geaorge is doing?"

"Dunno. Keep using her until George turns in his script."

One year later...

"Cripes. That won't work. But we've been using her for nearly a year."

"Come up with some way to fix it."

"Better that what George and Marv did? Okaaaay..."

Two years later...

"That was lame. Try something else."

"Okaaaay..."

Two years later...

"That was lame. Try something else."

Shudder. Wince. Repeat with Power Girl.

Keith "Some things never worked to begin with, Post-Crisis" Curtis

Hugh Neilson

Oct 20th, '05, 10:00 AM

No, Crisis simplified those things. But, like Hal Jordan, people couldn't let it die.

Editor's offices:
"Remember when Hawkman did (whatever)? That was neat. How do we work that back into continuity?"

"Umm, you don't. That was removed in Crisis."

The Hawkman problem was actually that someone (post-Crisis, I think) decided Hawkman was Carter Hall from day 1 to present day, removing the planet Thanagar and the second Hawkman. Had they left well enough alone (like Alan Scott/Hal Jordan and Jay Garrick/Barry Allen) things would have been fine.

Still, after 20 years they have nicely unwound the issue. Here's hoping IC doesn't mess that up...:eek:

John Desmarais

Oct 20th, '05, 10:47 AM

The Hawkman problem was actually that someone (post-Crisis, I think) decided Hawkman was Carter Hall from day 1 to present day, removing the planet Thanagar and the second Hawkman. Had they left well enough alone (like Alan Scott/Hal Jordan and Jay Garrick/Barry Allen) things would have been fine.

Still, after 20 years they have nicely unwound the issue. Here's hoping IC doesn't mess that up...:eek:

The problems started Tim Truman's Hawkworld mini series. It was a well done, interesting take on Hawkman, done as kind of a "Year One" story, that violating much of Hawkman's existing history. As a quick fix, the powers that be decided that the Hawkman who had been in the JLA was Carter Hall (Golden Agen Hawkman) as the Thanagarian Hawkman could no longer have been in the team at that time. Unfortunately, this didn't work and the downward spiral of retroactive patches then proceeded to make the problem worse and worse...

All in all, it would have been better as an Elseworld's story (or a complete piece of cr@p that could have been ignored) - but it was neither, so it stuck.

Lord Mhoram

Oct 20th, '05, 11:15 AM

For me violence and the consequences of violence exploration have little attraction in what is essentially escapism.

And I do... most vehemently. I want to explore EXACTLY what you described above. That is drama and depth of story and meaningful theme. It is the lack of these things in comics that drive me to game, because I want to see how these situations play out.

I have to comment here, and this being a discussion on tone in comics, I will be at almost the extreme opposite of Neil :D As it ever was, as it ever shall be.

The main point for me, is highlighted by one word in the quote from Hawksmoor. Escapism.
I don't consider following the results of this stuff escapist. It may be good drama, and great storytelling, but it is lousy escapism.
I read comics to be entertained, much like watching a big budget summer movie. I don't want, in general, intense drama and exploration of the negative consequences of action. I get that enough in real life - why would I want to subject myself to it in my escapism. That is why I disliked the two Spiderman movies - way too much pathos to enjoy as escapism. Give me Donner's Superman or Sky High over Raimi's Spidey any day.

That being said, I don't want all of comicdom that way, but any of the big goody two shoes supers should use that as a baseline and drift elsewhere with caution. Each character can have his own style that way - and people that want one tone can read Supes and Wondy and someone who want the intense and emotional depth to reaction to actions can read Bats.

And I like to see intense character study, and reactions to previous decisions, but I want it in a style that understands that this is primarly and action medium and not drama, and use that for flavor instead of main course. I think Johns and Busiek balance that perfectly. Winnick isn't too bad at it either.

Astro City is the best comic on the market, because of Busiek's attention to motivation and reactions to things, but to be honest, I wouldn't want my whole pull list to be that way - much to heavy reading- and comics, IMO, should be lighter reading. Have a nice mix, but lean on the ligher end.

The Main Man

Oct 20th, '05, 02:27 PM

That is a good call, and as a newbie to comics, I still have to read Astro City.

The Main Man

Oct 20th, '05, 02:34 PM

LoresLost

Oct 20th, '05, 05:43 PM

I leafed through IC #1 and VU #6. Right now the DCU has at least 3 good guys wareing a big red S and able to leap a tall building in a single bound. It also has at least two Lex Luthors, One of which is using the villians to some end and the other deciding on killing all the other villians (including the other Lex Luther) (This is goin'a be a one heck of a turf war) So he can take over the Universe (delusions of grandure?)

This is going to be fun I think.

Who is gonna win Lex, Lex or Superman^2 (^3, ^4?)

Oh boy!

Log-Man

Oct 20th, '05, 09:57 PM

...

Who is gonna win Lex, Lex or Superman^2 (^3, ^4?)
Thor could kick Lex Luthor's butt.

:winkgrin:

KawangaKid

Nov 2nd, '05, 08:38 PM

I don't think this will be a return to the multiverse as we knew it. It's likely that there may be some retconning... I think they may be taking the effort in this series to NOT retconn things... and in fact to acknowledge that continuity has been tampered with by Crisis on Infinite Earths.

I anticipate that some or most of the sticky issues that arose from the mis-handling of the original "clean slate" approach will be smoothed over. Then I expect that they will change the status quo immensely... and pushing for regular, major changes in the status quo in the four areas they've outlined: superhero community (OMAC Project), magical arena (Day of Vengeance), science fiction space opera (Rann-Thanagar) and supervillain community (Villains United).

It's been mentioned that Grant Morrison's 7 Soldiers may dovetail into the latter parts of Infinite Crisis, and I find that interesting as well...

Chimpira

Nov 3rd, '05, 04:57 AM

I totally agree, because I know why I got into comics, and that was to read about larger-than-life characters who do more than just stand and take it. I wanted to read about superheroes.
I have player in my group who doesn't understand that about the genre.
He keeps demanding, in a subtly condescending way that he wants more 'story.'
His apparent definition of 'story' would mean that people originally read superhero comics to see him talk, stand around, and do very un-escapist things.
It really bothers me, and its not like I keep telling him that.
Granted, I am a Silver-age fan, not a *cough*pretender*cough* Iron Age fan.
Course, I also read comics, and his other game credentials were World Of Darkness and D & D.
When I was a kid I read all the comics I could get my hands on. This was back in the 70's when $5 could buy you a stack and I purchased everything that came out from marvel and DC. I really do not remember the superhero comics much though. Do not get me wrong they were kind of cool but I devoured Sgt. Rock, Jonah Hex, House of Mystery, Tomb of Dracula and Howard the Duck. Heck my dad even let me read Heavy Metal magazine. I think he understood I was interested more in story than I was interested in breasts. So I was reading for story as a child and as I grew older I looked for that in my comic books, which are just another medium to tell stories and not just to blow things up like ID4. We seem to forget that a superhero story is simply a fantasy story. It can be well crafted with plot and dialogue or not, depending on the writer. But quite frankly although I like to see the heroes immersed in action I do not mind them stopping every so often to talk, stand around and do un-escapist things (also bear in mind that if they are talking in character that is a form of escapism). In a lot of genres that could be called character development. I am not trying to say your stance is wrong but just trying to remind you that we did not all get into it for the same thing.

The Main Man

Nov 3rd, '05, 01:51 PM

It's been mentioned that Grant Morrison's 7 Soldiers may dovetail into the latter parts of Infinite Crisis, and I find that interesting as well...

I've noticed that possibility, but I hope that it doesn't tie in too much.

I can't wait for both stories to be completed.

Big Willy

Nov 4th, '05, 12:33 AM

It seems to me that Seven Soldiers stands in relation to IC in a similar way to how "American Gothic" stood in relation to the original Crisis: it's the secret apocalypse that the A-list heroes are too busy to even notice is coming.

Steve

Nov 9th, '05, 01:37 PM

I don't think this will be a return to the multiverse as we knew it. It's likely that there may be some retconning... I think they may be taking the effort in this series to NOT retconn things... and in fact to acknowledge that continuity has been tampered with by Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Spoiler Alert :eek:

Well, the second issue is out and things are looking like Kawanga is right. I found it interesting that the Superman of Earth-Two commented that they saved the wrong Earth at the end of Crisis on Infinite Earths, and this Earth made from Earth-One and scraps from other Earths is fatally flawed and should be erased and forgotten.

ChaosDrgn

Nov 9th, '05, 04:05 PM

Blue Jogger

Nov 9th, '05, 06:27 PM

They're simply seting up for the big DC-Marvel crossover series "Infinite Secret Crisis Wars on Multiple Earths" :D

Ok, This is "Ultimate Countdown to Infinite Crisis Wars II"
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/272710

Lord Mhoram

Nov 9th, '05, 07:11 PM

Just to clear something up, not sure if it has been already.

Crisis on Infinite Earths was written by Marv Wolfman with art by George Perez. Infinite Crisis is being done by Geoff Johns and Phil Jimenez.

And Jimenez is really looking like Perez is his art, it has been wonderful. Plus having the Perez covers!!!! Woot!! The Lee covers are pretty and make for a good poster, but the Perez covers tell a story.

greypaladin_01

Nov 10th, '05, 07:50 PM

Ok, This is "Ultimate Countdown to Infinite Crisis Wars II"
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/272710

Is it just me or does it seem kinda sad how well this movie fits what came from Identity Crisis?

Supreme Serpent

Nov 11th, '05, 08:19 AM

I haven't been buying them, but have flipped through the first two in the store. Lovely art, but I'll pass and see how it all settles out. Maybe buy the trade later if it turns out to be a good story.

What gets me from what I've been flipping through is Superman's (old one) attitude. The guy who would likely surrender rather than having a puppy killed is willing to casually destroy whole realities?

assault

Nov 11th, '05, 02:26 PM

What gets me from what I've been flipping through is Superman's (old one) attitude. The guy who would likely surrender rather than having a puppy killed is willing to casually destroy whole realities?

You're thinking about the wrong Superman. The old guy had a bit of a harder edge than the Earth-1 version. (Besides, he'd save the puppy some other way. ;) )

Still, "casually destroying whole realities" doesn't seem in character for any version of Superman.

CBikle

Nov 11th, '05, 05:42 PM

Still, "casually destroying whole realities" doesn't seem in character for any version of Superman.
SPOILER
I think the golden age Superman is being manipulated by Alexander Luthor (maybe he thinks his Earth should be the predominant Earth ?).

KawangaKid

Nov 13th, '05, 05:38 PM

In light of Issue #2, AND some of the JSA issue I've seen involving old-timer Paul Levitz as writer, I'm getting a stronger feeling that there will be an attempt to accommodate BOTH earths.

In other words, there may be Supermen from at least TWO eras existing in the same timeline.

Here's a link to the JSA story with Perez pencils on newsarama: http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/JSA/LevitzJSA.htm

Meanwhile, as a service to those who've NOT seen the covers yet.. I'll upload some of the more intriguing covers for Infinite Crisis.

assault

Nov 13th, '05, 05:57 PM

In light of Issue #2, AND some of the JSA issue I've seen involving old-timer Paul Levitz as writer, ...
Here's a link to the JSA story with Perez pencils on newsarama:

Levitz and Perez working together? I am so there.

And I don't normally collect JSA.

KawangaKid

Nov 14th, '05, 12:02 AM

An interesting observation that a person named "greylurker" noticed on the DC Message Boards:

Lex Luthor seems to be determined to go after representatives of the various pre-Crisis Earths in the series...

Firestorm - Earth 1
Power Girl - Earth 2
Ray - Earth X
A Marvel (any Marvel) - Earth S
Lady Quark - Earth ?

So perhaps he has a similar plan to Kal-L?

ross_winn

Nov 14th, '05, 05:40 AM

TheRavenIs

Dec 7th, '06, 03:28 PM

I just read the complete run in the graphic novel ..... it wasn't as bad as expected, but it was not what I would call great. Still all in all I think I actually liked it.

Scary thought that Superboy-Prime and Alexander Luthor ending up the bad guys in all.

I did like that magic got a major overhaul in the companion story. I wonder what that will mean for all the magic types.

And the Speedforce, and the GLCorp.

All in all I liked the story.

RDU Neil

Dec 8th, '06, 06:14 AM

If they work Superman: Red Son (http://theages.superman.ws/History/redson/)into this new continuity I will all but 'splode in geeky ecstasy...

Red Son is the coolest alternate Superman in the history of the character.

The "Elseworld" concept was always one I liked... even though the majority were crap in the execution.

The top three (IMO) of all were the Tony Haris JSA: The Liberty Files, Superman: Red Son, and the one shot Elseworld's Finest: Supergirl & Batgirl (Matt Haley art).

Well written stories with some amazing art on self contained stories... these are some of the best comics out there.

FenrisUlf

Dec 8th, '06, 09:15 AM

That is a good call, and as a newbie to comics, I still have to read Astro City.

I can only beg you to find one of the collections and read it. You owe it to yourself. It is that good.

Enforcer84

Dec 10th, '06, 11:11 AM

The "Elseworld" concept was always one I liked... even though the majority were crap in the execution.

The top three (IMO) of all were the Tony Haris JSA: The Liberty Files, Superman: Red Son, and the one shot Elseworld's Finest: Supergirl & Batgirl (Matt Haley art).

Well written stories with some amazing art on self contained stories... these are some of the best comics out there.
I really liked Else World's Finest: Batgirl and Supergirl.

Theron

Dec 10th, '06, 11:36 AM

I really liked Else World's Finest: Batgirl and Supergirl.

I always thought that would make a rockin' campaign setting.

OddHat

Dec 10th, '06, 11:57 AM

The JSA: Liberty Files was excellent. Very close to how I see my own campaign's WWII years.

Squall

Dec 15th, '06, 02:23 AM

I didn't hate Infinite Crisis, but I have to admit I enjoyed the build up (the mini series, etc) far more than the actual 7-issues of IC itself. Villains United rocked my socks off, OMAC Project was a cool read, etc, etc. I loved the sense of impending doom, the momentum that was called forward, the sudden (re)emergence of Dr Light as a Grade-A bad guy...

...and then they just crammed so much into seven teenie little issues that not much of it made sense. Most of what was going on was expanded upon in regular monthly titles, but I really think IC would've been better if they'd just had more elbow room. A few more panels here and there for fight scenes, a little more room for thought bubbles to show some character's motivations, that sort of thing. At one point I even had my wife (a new-to-comics comics fan) reading Infinite Crisis with that month's Teen Titans comic in her lap, too, flipping from page to page and panel to panel (both comics covered the Superboy Prime Kicks The Titan's Asses fight, the TT comic in quite a bit more detail).

It really just felt like there was a ton of build up...and then this mad rush to squeeze too much stuff into too little space. It wasn't awful, but it wasn't awesome, either.

I also know they made some huge changes between the mini itself and this collected hardcover version. Whole bubbles of text are different, and some of them are pretty important changes. I found that kind of disappointing -- why not do it RIGHT the first time? Because they were in too big of a hurry?

All in all, though, it could've been worse. It was just a shame how much better the stuff leading into it was, compared to the "event" itself.

Lord Mhoram

Dec 15th, '06, 08:42 PM

One of the things I liked is that in the darkness before IC, DC editors had said things were going to get dark, but once the IC was over, superman wasn't going to be whiny, bats was going to be gruff but not over the edge and that overall most DC heroes would be bright and heroic again.

And they are.

I love most of the current DC characters, and the handling of the big three as been great, as others. Right now is a great time to be a DC fan. :)

Squall

Dec 16th, '06, 03:48 AM

Except Wonder Woman. Who's back to her super-spy persona while her former sidekick wears the mantle, and is stuck with a bi-monthly title.

Their handling of the big three in JLA has been awesome (and, with Arsenal being my favorite comic character, I'm happy to see him bumped into the big leagues) -- but as far as individual titles go, I think it still shows Wonder Woman's the redheaded stepchild of the trio. Supes has a half dozen titles, Batty and family are probably half DC's printing pulp every month...and Diana gets a half dozen issues a year.

TheQuestionMan

Dec 16th, '06, 05:09 AM

I would like to see better Art on Wonder Woman and more exploration of her life outside of Superhero and Secret Agent Woman type stuff. I loved her being a diplomat and having responsibilities at the UN and public appearences to promote the Amazonian way of living.

Diana Prince - aka Princess Diana of Themyscira & Wonder Woman
Stick to JLA & JSA.

Donna Troy - aka Wonder Girl, Darkstar, & Troia.
Stick to Wonder Woman & Guest Appearances.

Cassandra "Cassie" Sandsmark aka Wonder Girl.
Stick to Titans.

Cheers

QM

Lord Mhoram

Dec 16th, '06, 05:43 AM

Except Wonder Woman. Who's back to her super-spy persona while her former sidekick wears the mantle, and is stuck with a bi-monthly title.

Yeah - I've enjoyed what I have seen, I didn't know it was bi-montly, I've only read the first three issues a few weeks ago. I am completely withholding judgement until the first story arc is done.

Having Donna be WW I think is great - Flash has changed hands twice, and GL changed, and back - so there is a great history of passing the legacy to another generation (one of the things I really love about DC actually). So I have no problems with Donna. And Diana being in her old spy outfit was a cool homage. And as I really like the whole generational aspect of the DCU having Diana, Donna and Cassie all around is something I think is really nifty.

Lord Mhoram

Dec 16th, '06, 06:10 AM

I loved her being a diplomat and having responsibilities at the UN and public appearences to promote the Amazonian way of living.

QM

A little bit of that is ok, but I read superhero comics to read superhero stuff, not political stuff. When the comic turned all political (and after her book came out, adn the resulting problems) that kept me from buying it. Put some in for characterization or color, but I wouldn't want that to be the focus of the book.

*shrug*
Different tastes and all.

OddHat

Dec 16th, '06, 12:41 PM

A little bit of that is ok, but I read superhero comics to read superhero stuff, not political stuff. When the comic turned all political (and after her book came out, adn the resulting problems) that kept me from buying it. Put some in for characterization or color, but I wouldn't want that to be the focus of the book.

*shrug*
Different tastes and all.

Especially as the political stuff is generally written by folks with the political depth and sophistication of angry pseudo-intellectual college drop outs.

Lord Mhoram

Dec 16th, '06, 01:41 PM

Especially as the political stuff is generally written by folks with the political depth and sophistication of angry pseudo-intellectual college drop outs.

That is a good deal of it yes. :)

Hugh Neilson

Dec 16th, '06, 09:06 PM

Yeah - I've enjoyed what I have seen, I didn't know it was bi-montly, I've only read the first three issues a few weeks ago. I am completely withholding judgement until the first story arc is done.

I don't think it was intended to be bimonthly. I think certain comics creators lack the reliability to be entructed with a monthly book. Both Marvel and DC have several books which seem unable to ever ship on a regular schedule.

Lord Mhoram

Dec 17th, '06, 06:06 AM

I don't think it was intended to be bimonthly. I think certain comics creators lack the reliability to be entructed with a monthly book. Both Marvel and DC have several books which seem unable to ever ship on a regular schedule.

Tell me abou it - I'm a fan of The Ultimates. And All Star Superman.
*sigh*

At least Kurt Busiek had the decency to basically say "Look, due to whatever problems we have, we can't get this out on time, so we are going to do Astro City as miniseres, and we won't even publish the first one until almost all the scripts are in the can"

FenrisUlf

Dec 18th, '06, 07:51 AM

Especially as the political stuff is generally written by folks with the political depth and sophistication of angry pseudo-intellectual college drop outs.

Sadly true, and it ruined more than one story for me. Why is it that the people who most love to insert politics into their art are also usually the ones least fit to do so?

GoldenAge

Dec 18th, '06, 05:46 PM

I can only beg you to find one of the collections and read it. You owe it to yourself. It is that good.

Agreed! :thumbup:

Log-Man

Dec 20th, '06, 05:46 AM

Sadly true, and it ruined more than one story for me. Why is it that the people who most love to insert politics into their art are also usually the ones least fit to do so?
Easy. They're the ones that are so angry because they're incapable of seeing the big picture.

FenrisUlf

Jun 20th, '07, 03:04 PM

Well, I just recently read the Infinite Crisis graphic novel, and while some of it was gruesome (Black Adam giving Psycho-Pirate a Three Stooges eye-gouge so hard he knocks his eyes out through the back of his skull), for the most part I like it. It was better than I thought.

And it does seem as though things are improving in the DC-verse.

Sheesh, these last few years have been the biggest DC binge for me since Death of Superman; odd that Connel's death should bring me back in, the same way his 'birth' did. I've bought Identity Crisis, the four series that lead up to Infinite, and several other DC graphic novels.

Now I just have to find the books that Busiek is writing for DC and I'll be happy.

Super Squirrel

Jun 20th, '07, 06:24 PM