In Nominae and Biblical Literalist Games: Experiences?

[OddHat]

Campaigns that try to accurately and sympathetically recreate a Christian theological world view have always been interesting to me, but I’ve never been able to get one to work in a way that felt respectful to believers. I tried “In Nominae”, and stopped reading the supplements when one scenario had an Angel being used as a fluffer in a porn flick. Never liked the whole “G_d never communicates, but Satan can do as he likes” thing in that setting. I tried a “literal truth of the Bible” fantasy campaign for my wife and a pair of Born Again gamers, and while it fell apart quickly, the setting had potential. Historical or semi-historical Fantasy campaigns with Christian characters have worked fine.

So, have you ever successfully run an In Nominae type game that actually worked? Did you use an active G_d, or did you take the default approach?

Have you made much use of Angels in other settings? Or much use of a biblical literalist setting?

There’s a lot of Christian fantastic literature I’d like to work into games, and comments on how others have managed would be valued.

[TheRavenIs]

In the late 1980's, I was at school at Eastern Kentucky University, a person that became a real good friend was running a Christian infulanced AD&D. It worked well. I enjoyed it alot. He had modifed the magic system so that 'by faith alone' could you work certain magics.

We had a C that was an elven mage, mages were astetic's that used knowledge to mainpulate the magic. He eventually became a true user of the magic of faith, a cleric.

We had a Paladin that only when he's C acted with faith did he's Paladin abilities work. Once he noticed that, he's faith became so strong that he became more than a Paladin, he was able to draw on he's faith, use of psionic's as power of faith.

We had ninja type that was the doubting Thomas of the group. All he's skills he was using he kept telling the rest of us that he's own knowledge was the real power. He never did get it. Eventually the other C's got to do things the classes and races in AD&D couldn't do. He, the player eventually had the C leave. He eventually came back with an Elven Archer Mage, that had the faith to actually do some real odd things. He could use both certain clerical magics as well as he's archaine.

We also had a seer, she was a sea-Elf. But was able to exist in both freash and salt water. Her visions were gift's from G_D. It was her C that the GM used for us to get information form the big guy. The player had a very strong faith herself and she was also something of a combo Cleric/Mage but all her powers came from the C's faith.

I played a dwarf, Chavol Coldsteel. He started out your typical dwarf, arrogent, convinced that dwarf's were the best of the best. He started out as the one that had faith but wasn't sure that the others faith was as good as he's. He fell in love with an Elven healer, yea an dwarf in love with an elf.

Chavol started out as a basic dwarven fighter, he helped the Paladin learn how to move in full armor, ie how to get up after being put on he's back. He had to learn to ride, very funny for a short legged dwarf to learn to ride, but he did. The Paladin taught him that, during the champain, Chavol became as close to a Paladin that a dwarft could in the rules of that time. He also became a smith cleric. He's clerical abilities came out with the weapons he created.

So yeah I've played in a Christian motif game in AD&D.

[TheRavenIs]

I also ran a Hero game that was Christian in color, this was also when I was at EKU. The Heroes that were Christian had all the probleams you'd expect when it was found that they were. The press and most people treated them in many different way's. The ones that had even a bit of faith treated them better. The press for the most part made fun of them.
The non-Christian heroes, they got all the good press, all the acolades you'd expect from being a hero. The Christian Heroes didn't. They were made fun of, laughed at for the faith they shared.
Eventually the world had a small invasion of the creatures of a demonic realm. The non-Christian heroes, they fought them but it always ended in a draw, but when a Christian hero or the team of Christian heroes showed up. The demonic beings lost. The non-Christian heroes, and the normal people began to see that faith was why the Christian heroes had an edge. All the demonic beings had x2 Vul to attacks from beings with Faith.
I had both Christians like me playing and non-Christians. The non-Christian players asked why I did it that way. I told them, that when you have "Faith anything is possiable". Some of them actually became Christians because of that.
It wasn't my GMing that did that but I do know that it worked and even the non-Christian's had fun in the game.

[daeudi_454]

Check out TESTAMENT: Roleplaying in the Biblical Age.
I bought it on a whim at GenCon04, and glad I did. It is respectful of Judeo-Christian beliefs, yet also takes into account other priests and cultures of the time. Unfortunately, it is d20 and only Old Testament era. But it does have a nice Piety system you should check out. It overrules d20 alignment. It also states that many GMs will decide that YHVH is supreme over the other cultures gods.
http://www.greenronin.com/catalog/grr1019
One of these days I am going to convert the book to Hero Designer.

One of the big problems with modern biblical genre is the predominance of Roman Catholic belief structures. It is a bit limiting, and overdone in movies, plus there are certain dogma that (Edit: this would be controversial or offensive, so I will stop). A better method would be to go with a Messianic Judaism theology. Then you can still implement the old foes like Baal, mystic elements like Kabbalahh, etc. Plus use faith, that cool Armor of God from the Digital Hero article, and elements from Revelations.

One of the games I am in involves Nephilim, the Sons of the Fallen. They went underground after the Flood, and have posed as the gods of ancient civilizations. They are now split into different tribes which bicker amongst each other- but work towards the final goals of their forefathers. During modern times they have taken on the guises of Atlantean channeled spirits, UFO aliens, etc. Plus the gratuitous conspiracies- "Good" aliens vs bad aliens vs the governament, vs Illuminati vs Satanists, etc. When really- they are all Nephilim, seeking to drag as many to Hell as they can.

[Dr. Anomaly]

I'll try and make sure Haven knows about this thread...she's played In Nominae and (IIRC) likes it.

She may not feel up for answering for a couple of days, though.

[Curufea]

I can't get by the dichotomy of the very first sentence, sorry...

That being said, I only have two suggestions-
Never involve history in any way - it may lead players to do their own research, which is a bad idea for the tone your trying for. Concentrate only on the present day.

And have a look at Frank Peretti's modern day books about angels -
This Present Darkness, Piercing the Darkness etc..
http://christianteens.about.com/library/blperetti.htm

[ghost-angel]

From what I've read of In Nominae it does about as much justice to Biblical Angels as White Wolf does - i.e. none. However I've never played it and don't know how good a game it is to play (from that POV). But I do know that the Angels they have for the Orders exist in name only, and not in Biblical Terms (Arch Angels are the second LOWEST Order, above only Angels).

I look at Christianity in general as good moral lessons, a civilization ruining religion and a good Faith. I can't help you with games towards that bent.

Dogs In The Vineyard on the other hand is an awesome game for looking at Morality in general, from any angle. I need to actually sit down and play it someday - possibly the only game that has tempted me since I found Hero 10 years ago.

[daeudi_454]

I can't get by the dichotomy of the very first sentence, sorry...

That being said, I only have two suggestions-
Never involve history in any way - it may lead players to do their own research, which is a bad idea for the tone your trying for. Concentrate only on the present day.
Uhm- for the sake of all, Let's just phrase it that he wants to run a campaign treating the Christian mythos as fact. That way those who believe it to be otherwise will have no reason to take issue, and those who do believe will not get insulted.

This thread could all too easy become as big a debate as Evolution vs Creation vs Intelligent Design. So those who do not believe that the Bible is a historical as well as religious document, please consider it as much a sourcebook as L'Morte de Arthur or any high school history book (ask an Indian if your history book is accurate.).

[Curufea]

No, I was referring more to the history of the various christian churches which would need a certain amount of delicate manipulation in order to elicite sympathy.

It would be a big job to rewrite everything from the Roman Empire onwards :)

By that (so as not to trigger too much defensiveness) - assigning satanic or demonic influences to the acts of various humans who were in positions of power in the church such that culpability is externalised.

[daeudi_454]

No, I was referring more to the history of the various christian churches which would need a certain amount of delicate manipulation in order to elicite sympathy..
Ah.... I was throwing water on a fire that wasn't even burning :D lol @ self


By that (so as not to trigger too much defensiveness) - assigning satanic or demonic influences to the acts of various humans who were in positions of power in the church such that culpability is externalised.
"The Inquisition- da da da !" Also- I suggest doing some research into events near the church- like the Gnostics of France or the Vatican's truce with the Axis powers.
Regarding what I said on Nephilim above- check out the Book of Enoch. It is considered apochrypha, but is easy enough to download a copy.
As long as you don't go so far as to assign everything a demonic cause. One of the great things we got in our game is a GM who likes to get us thinking we're after a demon, and it turns out to just be a human jerk.
(lol@self)

[stmichaeldet]

I ran an In Nomine campaign once. Loved the setting, hated (hated, hated, hated) the system and scattershot editing. But then, since I'm a non-christian who enjoys studying everything from hardcore western occultism to David Icke's reptoid conspiracy theories, and who thinks Catholics have just the coolest stuff, I can't say I was particularly concerned about how closely the campaign adhered to christian beliefs.

[OddHat]

To clarify, I'm an agnostic-atheist myself. I personally don't believe in souls, an afterlife, G_d, demons, spirits, elves, alien visitors, psychic phenomena, etc. However, I do try to both respect the beliefs of my players and the integrity of both my setting and the source material. If I do use Angels, then I'd rather use them in a way that is accurate to the theological view of Angels held by a specific faith in a specific time and place. I'll make changes where I need to for the sake of the story, but I'd rather not have my Angels turn out to be Vampires with Feathery Wings (unless that's actually a plot point). I appreciate the experiences with Christian / Angelic themed campaigns that others have posted in this thread so far. However, I'd rather that this not turn into a debate about the validity of any given belief system. Better for this to stay a gaming thread. :)

[Curufea]

I think the various splinter groups and things that happened throughout church history could lead to a great political intrigue amongst the "powers behind the scenes". Demons and angels influencing things. Hence I recommend Piercing the Darkness, and This Present Darkness :)

But then, I like playing Amber as well.

[daeudi_454]

hardcore western occultism to David Icke's reptoid conspiracy theories
David Icke's stuff is an RPG setting in and of itself.

I think the biggest reason that so many settings have an inactive God is because How do you play a war where one side is omnipotent? Unfortunately, this train of thought reduces humanity to little more than pawns. A small suggestion- you can still have an active deity if you remember that even He has (self-imposed) rules. The biggest being that He gave us Free Will, and thhat restricts how much he can do regarding human behavior.

[Constantine]

I've never played a game like IN, but my group does touch upon religion every once in a while in our games. My buddy Taedis once ran a game where a buddy of mine played an angel, and I played an amberite. We had a game we liked to call our vertigo campaign where the pc's were working for a guy named Archangel, bringing to justice the criminals of the world, and imprisoning them in the "Tabernacle". I've played a vampire who was (or at least thought he was) a fallen angel. I personally enjoy introducing a little religion into games every once in a while. I never played in a game where it was the overwhelming theme. I own IN, but never tried to run it, and only played once.
As for the side of light being led by a omnipotent being, I always thought that was fairly active to get around using the free will thing, and the "he doesn't want to interfere" thing.

[ghost-angel]

To clarify, I'm an agnostic-atheist myself. I personally don't believe in souls, an afterlife, G_d, demons, spirits, elves, alien visitors, psychic phenomena, etc. However, I do try to both respect the beliefs of my players and the integrity of both my setting and the source material. If I do use Angels, then I'd rather use them in a way that is accurate to the theological view of Angels held by a specific faith in a specific time and place. I'll make changes where I need to for the sake of the story, but I'd rather not have my Angels turn out to be Vampires with Feathery Wings (unless that's actually a plot point). I appreciate the experiences with Christian / Angelic themed campaigns that others have posted in this thread so far. However, I'd rather that this not turn into a debate about the validity of any given belief system. Better for this to stay a gaming thread. :)
There's an Angels In Comics thread somewhere in the Champions forum with a bunch of info from me and some others regarding actual Biblical Angels, I'm too lazy to dig it up but can give a brief sysnopsis here, since you seem interested in Biblical Theology, whether you believe it's "Real" or not is irrelevant to the information I have, since I'm mostly drawing directly from the Bible and other such texts...

There are 9 Orders of Angels in the Bible (from lowest to highest):
Angels
ArchAngels
Principalities
Powers
Virutes
Dominations
Thrones
Cherubim
Seraphim

Satan, from what I can find, was a Seraphim. Most of all the Named Angels in the Bible are either Angels or ArchAngels as those were the only two Orders that interacted with Humankind. Neither Order is ever depicted with Wings. the Hebrew word for Angels is Malakhim, which also means messenger.

The Cherubim are the ones that carry Gods Throne (Ezekiel 10), and the sound of their wings rivals the Voice Of God iteself.
Seraphim are described in Isaiah (6:3) as having three pairs of wings, one pair covering their eyes, one pair covering their feet and the third pair for flying.

Thus ends any reference I know of off the top of my head about Wings and Angels.

And that's a short reference.. I can't find which text cites what the Order govern, I've a feeling I'll need to go through some archived discs.

--
As far as Games that use Angels and Biblical Theology I haven't run across one yet that doesn't change something to fit it's specific needs or just make crap up based on "Common Knowledge" etc...

If you want to run a game like this I suggest doing your own research and using the System Of Choice to play in.

[Mentor]

I knew a DM in the early eighties who ran a D& D campaign without a pantheon, but set in a world where clerics were either Christian or Satanist. Pagans were either druids or magic users. As I recall, there were a lot of difficulties in making the transition and many of us as players gave him unending grief over the concept.

Nonetheless, I can see an interesting campaign built around the quasi biblical world setting.

I hesitate to use the term literalist as Biblical angels don't act independently so wouldn't work as player characters and there is no dualistic closely matched power struggle between a relatively equal in power God and Satan being carried out by relative equal in power minions in the biblical narrative.

[OddHat]

I hesitate to use the term literalist as Biblical angels don't act independently so wouldn't work as layer characters and there is no dualistic closely matched power struggle between a relatively equal in power God and Satan being carried out by relative equal in power minions in the biblical narrative.

Yup. By definition a Biblical Literalist setting is going to stop being so if you add in free-willed Angels, though I'd still rather stay close. Equally matched forces of Heaven and Hell become an even trickier question; they have considerable use from a storytelling point of view, but they require ignoring fair chunks of mainstream Judeo-Christian theology. The purely literalist game I tried to run did not involve any direct PC controlled magic.

[AmadanNaBriona]

While I'd personally avoid a totally literalist Christian Mythology campaign as much as I'd avoid doing almost ANY mythic campaign in a literalist fashion, I am enough of a genre feind to have had interest in this sort of setting. Source ideas that spawned In Nomine, in my mind, range from The Prophecy movies, to Dogma, to the Hellblazer comics. Some of these handled the topic better than others. The topic of free will among angels is tricky, and I don't really want to bend my brain around it too much, other than to say that in order for Lucifers rebellion to have occured, angels must have at least the capacity for free will, even if its an option denied to them if they wish to exist in a state of grace. I certainly think that any attempt at a campaign with both an active God and angels as direct implements of Divine will would NOT be suited to angel PC's.
Unless of course your players like playing as puppets.
If I was going to run a campaign using christian mythology, I'd be inclined towards two things: Number one... Mortal characters. Number two... Assumption that almost all myths from the general overall abrahamic religions are in fact correct. Which means in some cases that conflicts in belief could BOTH be correct. Which gets confusing. but interesting. Which would take a LOT of thinking things through. Examples... Early Judea believed that Yaweh was just one god among many... better (in their eyes), and the "true" God of their faith, but they didn't discount the existance of others. (Thou shall put no gods above Me). Gnostics beleived in reincarnation. How do you reconcile this with the usual afterlife? it'd be an interesting excercise if nothing else.
I don't want to derail this thread (too much, anyway), but does anyone know of a site that has the various angelic sigils? Which I am assuming have a kabbalistic origin ( I don't really know... that's an element of my education thats a bit lacking).

[Chuckg]

Ho-kay. The problem with "In Nomine" is that partway through the game, they underwent a massive shift in tone.

Before Beth McCoy became the first Line Editor of In Nomine (yes, the game line actually was released without a Line Editor, and went the core rules and the first few supplements that way... which explains a lot of the suck) the default tone of In Nomine was, well, you had angels in porn flicks. And angels that were cruel abusive SOBs that made demons look good. And Archangels who handed down hosejobs to their servitors that the Computer in Alpha Complex would have been ashamed of. And angel politics that involved fragging innocent people to make other angels look bad. And lots of other really disrespectful stuff. (The original game that IN was based on was a French parody game that was intended to just *totally* take a dump on God, angels, and all that. Steve Jackson Games toned that down a lot in the first IN releases... but, not quite enough.)

Anyway, after Beth McCoy came along, she faced a difficult task -- since she did *not* have a mandate to do a Second Edition, she had to somehow clean up and change the tone of In Nomine without explicitly rebooting the prior canon.

However, 'Archangel Beth'(1) is known for miracles, so she managed it. What she did was to create something known as CDaU -- "Canon Doubt and Uncertainty". CDaU are things that the game canon not only does not answer, but will deliberately *refuse* to answer -- so that each DM could pick and choose what tone they wanted for their world.

So, are angels really heartless dicks or selfless saviors? CDaU. Are demons really misunderstood champions of free will or heartless monsters? CDaU. Are Archangels Michael and Dominic two immature sprats ruining the work of Heaven with a pissing contest, or two millenia-old celestial beings engaged in a plot of high tragedy and drama by having irreconcilable differences based on the fact that they both have a very noble ethos and goals, and yet those two differing ethos unavoidably conflict? CDaU! It's your game! Make it as Bright or as Dark, as forwards or as backwards, as High-Contrast or Low-Contrast, as you want it to be! Future supplements will all be written to support as wide a range of options as they can!

Also, every game supplement made /after/ Beth became Line Editor took a different 'default' tone towards angels and demons. While Heaven still had its rough edges, overall, angels became a lot nicer. And while Hell still had its occasional odd spot of complexity and nobility, demons were still clearly demonic. Plus, the less respectful bits (Archangel Novalis as hippie bimbo, Archangel Michael as axe-brained barbarian, Archangel David as Heaven's Skinheaded Nazi, etc, etc.) either got toned way down or just plain 'forgotten' out of existence.

And then there's the non-official stuff that Maurice Lane (http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html) wrote, aka "In Nomine -- The Silly, Offbeat, And Yet Incredibly Thought-Provoking And Just Damn Cool Version", which over a period of years on the In Nomine mailing list managed to creep at least partly into the thoughts of just about everyone. (Seriously, click that link. If you know IN, you'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll be amazed. And if you don't know IN? You still will, it'll just take a it longer to get the references.)

The In Nomine Game Master's Guide (which is, natch, Post-Line-Editor) has a far more detailed explanation of setting, CDaU, and how to respectfully handle issues of personal belief at the gaming table... and there's nary a porn-fluffing angel anywhere near it. It is some really amazing work, and manages to very maturely and tastefully deal with all the sensitive issues that the game provides.

Just avoid anything with 'Revelations Cycle' on it. Man, was that stuff [excrement]. Then again, it *was* Pre-Line-Editor.

(Other good IN supplements -- Infernal Player's Guide (the first Post-Line-Editor supplement), the various Superiors books (sadly, the game line ended before they finished doing the detailed writeups/revisions of most of the Archangels and Demon Princes, but the ones who did get expanded writeups were *immeasurably* improved), and Liber Castellorum, the Tethers sourcebook. 'You Are Here' also had a lot of good stuff, but some content was a bit disturbing.)

Edit -- oh, and if you have Liber Reliquarum (the items sourcebook)... the item descriptions themselves are mostly fine, but for the love of God, do *not* use anything from the adventure seeds chapter. Especially not the one with Heaven's equivalent of Warehouse 23 and Archangel Michael's attempt to loot it, that's the second-worst example of Pre-Line-Editor thinking in the books. (The first worst being the Revelations Cycle.)




(1) Beth McCoy had two separate personas she used on the official IN mailing list in her capacity as list admin... the Archangel of Archives, and the Demon Princess of Nitpicking (pronounced 'Line Editing' in some obscure dialects. *g*). Which one she used depended on what mood she was in. It's a running gag. :)

[Doomsdave]

Source ideas that spawned In Nomine, in my mind, range from The Prophecy movies, to Dogma, to the Hellblazer comics. Some of these handled the topic better than others. The topic of free will among angels is tricky, and I don't really want to bend my brain around it too much, other than to say that in order for Lucifers rebellion to have occured, angels must have at least the capacity for free will, even if its an option denied to them if they wish to exist in a state of grace..
Funny thing is- there is nothing in the Bible that says the specialness we got was Free Will. Our specialness includes being hand-made "in our image" and being given the breath of life. The knowledge of Good and Evil is Eve's (yeah yeah- and Adam's) fault. Somehow freewill became the gift people think we got- but I like what they said in the movie Constantine: that our gift was forgiveness. The thief on the cross got forgiveness moments before death, but the angels are never forgiven anywhere in the Bible. Of course, for that to work, a human actually has to have remorse and a willingness to change. So in a game setting, once an angel turns against their boss, they are screwed.

[Chuckg]

In Nomine just kinda ignored that part in the interests of a playable game. :)

Angels could Fall, and demons could Redeem. However, as was only right and proper, they made it a lot easier to fall down then they did to climb back up. (i.e. -- it would take true sincerity, lots of penance, lots of working for it, and excellent roleplay.)

OTOH, In Nomine also did one of the best jobs of splitting the difference between Free Will and Predestination that I ever saw... AAMOF, whether or not Free Will truly exists is CDaU.

What it is is this. Every being in the universe has both a Destiny and a Fate. Their Destiny is the best-case scenario, the most positive impact they could have on the universe with their life. Their Fate is the worst-case scenario, the life choice that does the most damage to the general harmony of everything.

What your Destiny and your Fate are, you're born with. It can't change. And not everybody has an earthshaking Destiny or Fate. Your Destiny might be something as simple as 'provide a kind word to person X just as they reach their moment of faith'. Of course, person X might then have, thanks to your kind word, gone on to do great and wondrous things. For the want of a nail, horseshoe, etc. Likewise with your Fate.

Since the universe isn't perfect (that's kinda the whole *point* of Lucifer's rebellion, after all) some very very very few people get really screwed on the Destiny and Fate thing, where they get a Fate that's much easier to achieve than their Destiny is. But even those people still get a choice.

For example, in the In Nomine universe, Adolf Hitler's Destiny and Fate were both canonically specified. His Destiny was to become a minor portrait painter, live a relatively content life, and die of old age, not really having done anything to make the world a better place, but not having done anything to make it much worse either. His Fate? Ummm, well, let's just say, he achieved it, and he achieved it in spades. Further details can be found in your history books. *ahem*

Also, your Destiny and Fate were both one pivotal choice. The rest of your life? Up to you. Of course, the way you lived your life determines what kind of person you are, which would affect how you'd react to that choice when the situation arises... and, of course, the person in question has no way of knowing which one of the many moments of truth in his life is *the* moment, or even that the Destiny/Fate system exists. So it worked out that it wasn't just "sin your entire life, then skate on the one question that matters, viola instant Heaven". Not unless you were *unbelievably* lucky, and on that level, luck is pretty much Divine Providence anyway. But even the worst sinner could, possibly, achieve an Anakin-like moment of redemption if he managed to step back from the pit at just the exact proper moment... and likewise, depending on *which* choice it was, one bad choice could damn you irretrievably.(1)

On another example, a university professor's Destiny and Fate choice were both interlinked. One of his students, who'd spent her freshman year not studying quite hard enough, was going to approach him and ask for a chance to take some makeup exams and tutoring. If he was charitable and said 'yes', she would have gone on to become a famous doctor. However, he said 'no'... and he didn't just refuse her, either, he mocked her harshly for her lack of dedication and general all-around thickheadedness. Thusly convinced that she could never succeed, she dropped out of premed and went to do something else. At this moment, he achieved his Fate... and she lost her chance at her Destiny.

Which brings us to the next level of subtlety in the IN 'Will I Go To Heaven Or Not?' system.

First off, whatever your Destiny or Fate are, you have to achieve them on your own. You *cannot* be told what the pivotal moment of Destiny is, by either an angel or a demon -- doing that counts as direct celestial interference, which renders the whole thing null and void, making it *impossible* for your to achieve your Destiny. (As to what happens then, see below.) (edit -- I'm *not* sure if you *can* be told what your Fate is... but, the thing is, angels can't see your Fate, only your Destiny. And the demons aren't exactly gonna tell you how to avoid Fate!) Likewise, angels or demons interfering too closely in other ways also null the significance of your choice. Indirect manipulation is possible -- in the prior canonical example, demons serving Kronos, the Demon Prince of Fate, had spent the last couple of years indirectly arranging for the professor to suffer various unpleasant life experiences -- accidents, losses of loved ones, financial troubles, etc. -- thus guaranteeing that when the pivotal moment came, he'd most likely be in a *really* bad mood, and not feeling disposed to cut any slack to even his own mother, much less one student out of many. But he still could potentially have overcome the worse parts of his nature and made the right, the good choice... it was just /harder/ for him to. Demons (and angels) can't make the choice for you, or force you to make it, or cheat and hand you the answer key -- but they *can* work indirectly to point-shave and skew the odds. AAMOF, arranging for such things to happen is a full-time job for many angels and demons alike.

And last, but not least, is what happens if you manage to achieve *both* your Destiny and your Fate (which is possible)... or neither... or you achieved one or the other but the choices were voided due to celestial interference.

Well, that's simple. You simply get reincarnated and given another chance in your next life. Round and round the Wheel you go, and *eventually* you'll successfully hit one or the other. And then it's simple. Achieve your Fate but not your Destiny = hello, fiery pits. Achieve your Destiny and avoid your Fate = hark the herald angels sing.

In Nomine's system managed to get both eternal salvation, final damnation, predestination, free will, *and* reincarnation -- all into one unified system.

That was a really elegant design, IMO.





(1) In addition to going on to achieve your Destiny after having hit our Fate, there was a method by which even a damned soul could be reprieved at the gates of Hell, at the very last second, by the Angels of Final Judgement. But let's just say that it didn't happen very often. Still, they did get it on the record -- God would try to be forgiving, Lucifer didn't.

[Mentor]

Funny thing is- there is nothing in the Bible that says the specialness we got was Free Will. Our specialness includes being hand-made "in our image" and being given the breath of life. The knowledge of Good and Evil is Eve's (yeah yeah- and Adam's) fault. Somehow freewill became the gift people think we got- but I like what they said in the movie Constantine: that our gift was forgiveness. The thief on the cross got forgiveness moments before death, but the angels are never forgiven anywhere in the Bible. Of course, for that to work, a human actually has to have remorse and a willingness to change. So in a game setting, once an angel turns against their boss, they are screwed.
While the concept of free will is biblically contextual, in that a programmed Adam and Eve would not be suscepteble to temptation in the first place, the approaches you suggest are definitely more gamable. You are, IMHO, spot on about the forgiveness aspect.

[Chiba Bob]

Campaigns that try to accurately and sympathetically recreate a Christian theological world view have always been interesting to me, but I've never been able to get one to work in a way that felt respectful to believers.

This would be very difficult, seeing that Christian theological world view varies greatly between even believers. For instance, some believe that D&D is a tool of the devil and those Christians who play are at best ... deceived! To run such a campaign, a GM would have to have an more than just a understanding the theology ... they would have to understand "The Point" of it as well. Christianity can't be as easily quantified as fantasy religions can be. Christianity is like an iceberg and only the theology and the good works are the only the parts of it that can be seen above the surface.

For example, a primary Christian tenet is that one can have a personal relationship with God. When a person accepts Jesus as their savior, they are imbued with the Holy Spirit, the very presence of God. The same power/presence of God that dwelled in the Ark of the Covenant, dwells in each and every believer. It is the same holy power that could bring death to those who touched the Ark, through the sacrifice of Jesus, can now dwell in man. They placed the Ark within a special place (The Holy of Holies) in the Temple, separated form the rest of the Temple by a heavy curtain. Only the high priest was allowed to enter that chamber (to access to God) and they tied a rope to him so they could pull his body out if something unfortunate would happen during a visit. The staggering implications of this are taken for granted but personal direct access to God is a key tenet of Christianity.:shock:

Indwelling Of The Holy Spirit: Mind Link, One Specific Mind (God), Psychic Bond

This is the most basic and essential Christian spiritual power. Skimming through the priest package deals in Fantasy Hero, none of them have any direct access to their gods ... I wonder why? If I ever get a chance to play, I think my next pulp character will be a holy-roller with a Mind Link with God just to watch the GM squirm. :eg:

To some, It might feel that I am preaching to you but any specific examples of Christian tenets is preaching. While trying to be respectful to Christian players, non-believers could be offended by some of the subject matter. To me, if I was a non-believer playing in a game (being true to Christian tenets), I could not help but think that I was being evangelized. In my early days of gaming, I ran into some Christians using D&D as a method of evangelization and those games always seemed to leave me creeped-out. :eek:

Furthermore, even if a GM had a perfect understanding of Christian theology and spirituality, many believers do not. Christianity is a process, each are at differed levels of maturity and some are not ready for the deeper waters. For such a GM, to throw a less mature Christian in the deep end of the pool would just invoked fear while a more mature Christian would just be bored only to be allowed to splash about. I have seen churches split and or dissolve over these issues so I can't see how it would be different in a gaming group setting. :ugly:

I have on a few occasions played with the idea of "The World of Light" campaign using the Hero system but ultimately as a Christian, roleplayer allows me to indulge myself in a few of my fantasies (such as being a klingon cook or a half-ork freedom fighter) ... things which are impossible for me to do in the real-world. When I toy with this idea, the Holy Spirit reminds me that "The World of Light" campaign is not a fantasy, it is real and it's something I can do in the real-world as God gives me strength. While it is nice to see someone wanting to get it right, I am not sure it would make a fun game for all. :think:

[Chuckg]

This is the most basic and essential Christian spiritual power. Skimming through the priest package deals in Fantasy Hero, none of them have any direct access to their gods ... I wonder why?

If you'd ever had to DM the 1st edition AD&D rules on Divine Interventions, you'd never have asked that question. :D

More seriously, it's because a direct access to your patron god requires the DM to do one of two things: 1) refuse your character's supplications for aid, or 2) grant them.

1) will rapidly have the cleric in question going "Why am I worshipping my patron deity when he keeps telling me go to pound?"

2) will rapidly have the party going "How come he's getting an uberpowerful Patron advantage for free and we aren't? That's it, new characters for everyone! Go Team Cleric!"

Or, in short, it's a game mechanics issue, not a roleplay issue.

GURPS actually handled this by creating the 'Divine Favor' advantage, aka 'You can actually call upon whatever deity your worship for holy thunderbolts from the sky or however else he chooses to send you a Life Line in a tight spot, and you'll get it.' However, they *costed* the Divine Favor advantage on the Patron advantage -- for a Patron of 'enormously powerful, has access to resources and abilities not common in the game world, can be reached from anywhere at any time'.

So if you wanted to have a direct line to God, Zeus, the Valar, etc. you could either take a really low frequency of appearance ("it's an 8- chance that your request will be granted in a timely fashion") or pay a really high advantage.

[Curufea]

You can do this too -

If you want God to intervene, He does so. If you don't want God to intervene, it's an "ineffable plan, which us mere mortals are never meant to understand the reasoning behind".
After all, that's what happens now :)

[Chuckg]

Yeah, but we can't flip the table on God and quit the campaign. :)

[OddHat]

This would be very difficult, seeing that Christian theological world view varies greatly between even believers.

...

Indwelling Of The Holy Spirit: Mind Link, One Specific Mind (God), Psychic Bond

This is the most basic and essential Christian spiritual power.

A thoughtful post. I'd agree that you'd need to carefully decide on the theology of the campaign, but I disagree on the idea of stating out every believers' relationship with G_d. Just from a Hero System mechanics point of view, a believer who can reasonably expect aid from a miracle in the game ought to pay points, with limitations in place. A believer who gets no in-game mechanical benifits can have his relationship for free. Reasoning from effect and all that. ;)

[Chiba Bob]

... but I disagree on the idea of stating out every believers' relationship with G_d.


That's OK, my intention was not to tell you how to do it but only to point out some possible potholes along the road. :rockon:

[Thag13]

Chuck G

Well done post on the free will and such.

Thank you and repped

[Chuckg]

Don't thank me, thank Beth McCoy and Derek Pearcy. :)

[FenrisUlf]

Some interesting stuff here. And while talking about 'games with a Christian worldview', doesn't White Wolf's Vampire: The Masquerade count? After all, you had Cain, a veritable host of archangels involved in the creation of vampires, Lilith's intervention, and the idea that in some people faith was strong enough to work miracles.

And that's not even counting Demon, in which you play fallen angels trying to win their way back into Heaven by their actions. It's hard to think of a much more Christian game concept than that! (That, and it's depiction of Hell as being a place of torment rather than torture was a bit different too.)

[Chuckg]

Given that the God of the World of Darkness 1.0 was a psychotic dick, I'd say not.

I mean, seriously, that writing was of the "God is a mean widdle kid and we're the ants under his magnifying glass" school.

[Curufea]

Given that the God of the World of Darkness 1.0 was a psychotic dick, I'd say not.

I mean, seriously, that writing was of the "God is a mean widdle kid and we're the ants under his magnifying glass" school.

Read the book of Job, and get back to me on that :)

Actually I think the WoD takes more stuff from the Apocrypha than the Bible - so It's good for a Catholic flavoured game.

[Chuckg]

Read the book of Job, and get back to me on that :)

Job wasn't the entire damn planet.

[tomd1969]

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to ChuckG again.

Good stuff, Chuck.

IMO, IN is (despite a horrible system--though it shouldn't be *too* hard to convert to HERO ;) ) probably the best setting SJG put out (particularly after Archangel Beth took over). It covered a lot of ground (note Chuck's posts about freewill).

[daeudi_454]

And while talking about 'games with a Christian worldview', doesn't White Wolf's Vampire: The Masquerade count?
Oh Lordy, lordy....

Cain: Cain the brother. Caine the murderer. Cain the first vampire...
After he left his parents, he wandered, eventually took wives, had children. He bore a visible mark that told all that judgement of Cain was reserved for God. Only information after that is from aprochryphal book that states quite plainly that Cain was killed by a blind man, who was punished for it.
Lilith's intervention: Lillyth is not a Christian concept, but the mythological first wife of Adam according to Hebraic tradition. Apparently not as sexy as Eve, because Adam refused to join Lillyth in eating the fruit. And before you argue that all Hebraic tradition is Christian traditon= another Jewish legend is that the raven was white, but was cursed for refusing to leave the ark and look for dry land. The dove had to do it.
Archangels involved in the creation of vampires. not Christian, but heretical.
fallen angels trying to win their way back into Heaven: Not a prayer. the Bible and the aprocrypha are all in agreement. The fallen are damned for all eternity. Only humans are ever mentioned as able to receive mercy or forgivevness.

It's hard to think of a much more Christian game concept than that!
That's kind of like saying that Cyberpunk is a Japanese concept because of the corporations in it.
The World of Darkness is just that, a world of darkness. It is a cruel, twisted universe, ruled not by a god, but by an unholy trinity: Chaos, Order, and Destruction. <Known as various names: Wyld, Weaver, Wyrm- in Werewolf... same concept, the name changes per game>
It is no more of a Christian concept than the "churches" of Jim Jones, David Koresh, or the antichrist. "And it shall appear as a game of light."

Before I come off as totally biased against it, I should mention that I have played a Werewolf, Mage, Wraith, and Streetfighter. And did have fun while playing.

[Curufea]

Job wasn't the entire damn planet.
True, but to make an interesting RPG, companies like to up the stakes for interest...

Anyhow - what about animal sacrifice? Fairly big early on. Or are you going with the New Testament God?

[Fedifensor]

In Nomine's system managed to get both eternal salvation, final damnation, predestination, free will, *and* reincarnation -- all into one unified system.

That was a really elegant design, IMO.
An excellent summary, ChuckG. Definally repped for that - once I figure out how to do so.

As far as world background and story are concerned, In Nomine had some really good writers. I even had the privilege of briefly playing in the same In Nomine game as David Edelstein, one of their best freelance writers. Granted, his character in the game was absurdly powerful...*

The problem I had with the game is that the mechanics really, really suck. The whole 2d6 task resolution with a 1d6 'kicker' for level of success/failure never thrilled me, the character creation system rewards people who sink most of their points into maxing out a few skills, and the powers system is setup so these celestial and infernal beings have powers that simply fail to work at least 1 out of every 36 times. In fact, unless you dumped lots of points into your powers, they'd fail frequently - as in fail in activation, before anyone else had a chance to resist their effects.

I'd love to see In Nomine's powers converted over to a real game system. In Nomine GURPS is a bit better than their default game rules, but honestly I'd rather see it run in a flexible, rules-light system like the Amber DRPG, which is a much better fit for dealing with entities of that power level.


* Those that know the In Nomine rules will realize the awesome power of a Kyriotate of Destiny, who gains all the skills of whoever he's possessing.

[Chuckg]

*snark warning*

I find it unsurprising that David Edelstein brought a vastly more powerful character than everyone else's to the table. He always seemed to believe that the only proper place for him in any social interaction was with his heel solidly planted on your face. If y'all were agreein' with him, or acknowledging that him got more juice than you, everything was fine. If you didn't, well, stand by for the flaming.

Then again, me and him used to butt heads on the IN mailing list and the SJGames posting forums back in the day, a lot, and we really don't like each other. (I understand that I'm 'Troll #4' on his "Pyramid Rogue's Gallery" -- yes, he actually put up a section on his webpage dedicated to insulting people he'd gotten in message board arguments with years before.) :rolleyes:. So, my view of him, admittedly not dispassionate. (Then again, neither is his.)

*Enormously* talented writer, but jeez, what an ***.

Sorry, hadda vent.

[FenrisUlf]

ChuckG, Daeudi454, sorry. I didn't mean to start anything.

Perhaps it would be better to say that WW at least acknowledged that Christianity existed (even if about 75% of the time, their version of it came right out of Llewellyn paperbacks about Those Evil Xians). And if I recall correctly, one of their last pre-current Ed. Vampire books covered using real-world religions in the WoD. But yeah, they very often got needlessly nasty and childish on the topic.

OT: If I have a beef with anyone at WW, it'd be with that guy who revised the Werewolf game to remove most of the actual fascinating aspects of Garou culture like their spirituality, pack nature, etc. Why? Because he heard that 'furry fans' liked those elements of the Garou, and Skemp hates "those people". He's even admitted as much in interviews and other writings that he racked over the setting and characters "just to p!$$ those freaks off". Geez, Skemp, try and buy some maturity the next time you're at the store, huh?

[Chuckg]

My own perspective on the matter is different -- IMO, Werewolf: the Forsaken (W:tF) sucks because it kept *too much* from Werewolf: the Apocalypse (W:tA).

Specifically, it kept the part where the werewolves were *objectively* right, blessed by the benevolent personification of the universe itself... even if she was mildly put out with them for recent events, she still loved them above all else, especially all the other available Player Character races/types in the WoD 2.0.

This violated the first and biggest commandment of the WoD 2.0 -- specifically, that there was no One True Way, and that each faction of the game would have both good and bad points. Much like Exalted, there would be no hosing re: karma... each possible way to approach the game (Solar campaign, Lunar campaign, Sidereal campaign, etc.) would allow as much for good guys as bad guys. (Well, except for Abyssals, but they were a purpose-built 'villain race' from the beginning, much as the Nephandi were in Mage: the Ascension.)

W:tF, on the other hand, totally ignored that part. (As opposed to Vampire:the Requiem, which leaves the true origin and nature of vampires, whether or not Caine even existed, etc, etc all for Canon Doubt and Uncertainty.) Which is why W:tF jibes with the rest of the WoD 2.0 setting not one single damn bit.

[Chuckg]

Dug up a long quote from a friend of mine on another message board on precisely this topic -- indeed, it was from him that I learned much of the above.

You might recognize the name... he's posted occasionally on the Champs board here, as the player of "Horus-Re".

He's also one of the most longtime and expert WoD players that I know of, and is at present head ST of Jade, White Wolf's Exalted online chat forum/game.


While Ethan has made vague babbly promises of that in fact, gosh, no foolin, it really is ambiguous, the Werewolves still come off as mystically sanctified from on high, having a clear and firm idea of the story that mystically sanctifies them from on high, that they are given some nebulous moral superiority for the way they live their lives (they're the spirit world police, and all that they do and are are just so terribly necessary!) really only being "Forsaken" in the sense that the spirit world hates them for being badass supercops, as their patricide was entirely justified, Luna herself gave them more powers to be even better after it, and the group of werewolves that condemn them for the patricide actually suffer more from things that the main werewolves do not. I've said in threads that taken comparatively, there is somewhat more range and ambiguity and so forth in WtF to WtA, and that's a good thing, but taking Forsaken on its own... ugh.

That the only thing that's /really/ changed is that they at least don't start off as busted powerful as they used to is not much of a change when Ethan uses his influence to have it so that even the lowliest of the fuzzies potentially knows far more about the occult world than a covenant of vampire scholars studying the otherworld for centuries as part of their specifically obsessive shtick, because gosh, werewolves are all special and firmly know things as truth, and compared to them, some centuries old vampire scholar has no damn idea what he's doing. And that at least werewolves and vampires don't really have much specifically to do with each other.

I mean hey, as an example, just because the Ordo Dracul have been studying ley lines and magical nexus points for a long while, in no way means that they shouldn't be specifically described as using them ignorantly and incompetently compared to werewolves.

"The Ordo Dracul have neither the means nor experience to understand spirit loci as well as werewolves do" my ***. Yes. They certainly don't have a large body of occult knowledge on storage that they expand every day, rituals designed to analyze said loci, enough collective auspex to study spiritual phenomena with, and their mystic mastery is certainly pathetic to the point where they haven't developed techniques for overcoming aspects of their own damned state or nothing. I mean, werewolves are /werewolves/, and obviously like the Goa'uld come into the world with full and perfectly preserved racial knowledge that carries over from one generation to the next, never degrading, never splintering, never making mistakes. Isolated packs living far apart and benefitting from largely oral traditions should totally punk organized scholasticism.

The Ordo can refine blood alchemy, develop ghost eating disciplines, and fold into itself a literal bloodline of witches, but lacking a thick layer of shag carpet over their bodies, never is it ever allowed to be said that they might in fact be able to know something mystical as well as a werewolf does, compensating for any innate connections to the spirit world by developing new magical techniques as they've done to explore other areas of interest to them, by gathering and analyzing knowledge, or so forth.

I can't wait for the day when it gets specified that the weres again view mages as arrogant bastards who have no real idea what they're doing neither, and subtle hints get dropped to support the view. *gak*

But to answer a question asked more simply:

The purpose of a werecritter is to guard and police their particular patch of land from spirits behaving badly via hunting. There are no changing breeds. The collective act of the fuzzy bastards doing this apparently protects man from being overrun by bad spirits, which are most of them. But oh for the days when they would police the growth of humanity too, culling them when they would get too uppity, for it was the badwrong spirits, curse them, that allowed for mankind to develop beyond that state, by, you know, corrupting them.

[FenrisUlf]

My own perspective on the matter is different -- IMO, Werewolf: the Forsaken (W:tF) sucks because it kept *too much* from Werewolf: the Apocalypse (W:tA).

Specifically, it kept the part where the werewolves were *objectively* right, blessed by the benevolent personification of the universe itself... even if she was mildly put out with them for recent events, she still loved them above all else, especially all the other available Player Character races/types in the WoD 2.0.

This violated the first and biggest commandment of the WoD 2.0 -- specifically, that there was no One True Way, and that each faction of the game would have both good and bad points. Much like Exalted, there would be no hosing re: karma... each possible way to approach the game (Solar campaign, Lunar campaign, Sidereal campaign, etc.) would allow as much for good guys as bad guys. (Well, except for Abyssals, but they were a purpose-built 'villain race' from the beginning, much as the Nephandi were in Mage: the Ascension.)

W:tF, on the other hand, totally ignored that part. (As opposed to Vampire:the Requiem, which leaves the true origin and nature of vampires, whether or not Caine even existed, etc, etc all for Canon Doubt and Uncertainty.) Which is why W:tF jibes with the rest of the WoD 2.0 setting not one single damn bit.

Well, not having read W:tF (or any of the other current edition WoD games), I can't say anything about that. Though to me, the 'humans suck so it's okay to kill them like flies' attitude was what I despised so much.

And I'm sorry if I've offended by sounding off on Mister Skemp. I didn't much care for his screaming at me like an idiot when I asked (admittedly foolish yet intended as joking) question at the WW forums. He might have just been having a bad day, but the guy came off as a major league ***. As I said before, I'd rather deal with the adults you find here.

[Chuckg]

Dude, I think Skemp's almost as much of a ******* as Edelstein. Insult him all you want, won't offend me a bit. :)

[FenrisUlf]

Any particular reason, or have you already covered it above with the 'the universe has told the werewolves that everything they do is OK?'. Is the guy a jerk in general, a control freak, or what?

[Chuckg]

Every time I've seen him in an online forum, he's been patronizing, arrogant, and rude. He says things that any idiot knows aren't true or accurate, and then viciously insults you if you call him on it. And unlike Edelstein, he doesn't even the minimal saving grace of being a *good* writer... not to mince words, but he sucks.

... aamof, by all rights, I should hate him /more/ than Edelstein. The only reason I don't is that I was one of the primary targets of Edelstein's *******ery, whereas I saw Skemp's mostly at second hand. *shrug*

[Curufea]

* Those that know the In Nomine rules will realize the awesome power of a Kyriotate of Destiny, who gains all the skills of whoever he's possessing.

Slightly off topic, but - If I rememer In Nomine, don't Kyriotes have to move bodies frequently? Does belonging to Destiny mean they keep skills after transferring to a new body?

[daeudi_454]

ChuckG, Daeudi454, sorry. I didn't mean to start anything.
Perhaps it would be better to say that WW at least acknowledged that Christianity existed (even if about 75% of the time, their version of it came right out of Llewellyn paperbacks about Those Evil Xians).

OT: If I have a beef with anyone at WW, it'd be with that guy who revised the Werewolf game to remove most of the actual fascinating aspects of Garou culture like their spirituality, pack nature, etc. Why? Because he heard that 'furry fans' liked those elements of the Garou, and Skemp hates "those people".
Fenris- don't fret. I didn't think you were starting anything, I just wanted to emphasize that WoD is not a Biblical "Literalist" universe.
I apologize if I came across as aggressive.

If I have a beef with anyone at WW, it is the suits who decided to make what books me and my friends use completely worthless. Outputting a new or 5er edition is a good thing, there are rule changes and improvements. What WW did is trash all the supplements- which barely need rules.
And what kind of moron executive puts someone in charge (Skemp) of writing a book for people he hates?

[Chuckg]

Slightly off topic, but - If I rememer In Nomine, don't Kyriotes have to move bodies frequently? Does belonging to Destiny mean they keep skills after transferring to a new body?

A Kyriotate can stay in a given body from 1-6 days (depending on his die roll when initially rolling to possess that body). Presumably, they can attempt to re-possess a host they have just left, although an unsuccessful possession attempt (or a successful Will-based resistance roll) leaves them unable to try again on the same host for 1-6 hours.

A Kyriotate of Destiny only has access to the host's skills and memories for as long as they are in that host's body. They have access to their *own* skills & memories, of course, at any time.

What makes Kyrios of Destiny so damn powerful is that normally, Kyriotates do *not* have access to any of their host's memories while possessing their body, making impersonation and infiltration somewhat problematic. Kyriotates of Destiny, OTOH, are the ultimate 'inside men', or for that matter, interrogators.

It's also important to remember that while Shedim (the Kyriotates' demonic counterpart) can only possess one host at a time, Kyrios can multi-task... and yet, the same consciousness is shared between them all, even at a distance. Starting Kyriotates can only hope to possess one human (or similarily sentient creature) and a couple animals, but powerful ones can do several people at a time. An Archangel Kyriotate (of which, canonically, there is only one -- Jordi, Archangel of Animals) can possess entire crowds.

[Fedifensor]

A Kyriotate of Destiny only has access to the host's skills and memories for as long as they are in that host's body. They have access to their *own* skills & memories, of course, at any time.

What makes Kyrios of Destiny so damn powerful is that normally, Kyriotates do *not* have access to any of their host's memories while possessing their body, making impersonation and infiltration somewhat problematic. Kyriotates of Destiny, OTOH, are the ultimate 'inside men', or for that matter, interrogators.
Indeed - the Kyriotate was such a good 'interrogator' that my Seraph of Destiny (who can 'hear' lies) was completely useless. It was easier and faster to have the Kyriotate possess the person and instantly know everything the subject knows.

You've summed up most of the advantages, but there are a few more. Our group needed to surgically remove a Vaputech implant (a device created by servants of the Demon Prince of Technology). Our solution: our Kyriotate found the best surgeon in the area, possessed him, and did the operation himself.

Basically, you can grab hold of nearly any skill you need. And once you raise your Forces high enough to possess two people at once, the Kyriotate of Destiny can possess one body, and use that person's skills in their other body. It gets really nasty, really quick.

[ghost-angel]

Wow .. you know now I'm really really sure I quite playing WoD when I did (waaay back when the only 2 books out were V:tM and W:tA) was such a good idea.. not long after that I was given the 4th Ed Hero System Rulebook. Boy was I a happy gamer.

[Chuckg]

And once you raise your Forces high enough to possess two people at once, the Kyriotate of Destiny can possess one body, and use that person's skills in their other body. It gets really nasty, really quick.

Yeah, but there's one thing worse even than Kyrios of Destiny... and that's Kyrios of Lightning.

You see, folks, their special boost is that they can possess inanimate objects.

*sigh*

The ability to put eyes, ears, and consciousness in any damn object they can get line-of-sight to, and ride along in it for minutes. And, of course, control its every function while they're in there.

Possess an enemy's car, crash it into anything handy. Possess a metal detector, make it not go off even if your friends carry bazookas through it. Possess any door lock or vault door, have it pop itself open...

... and then there was the infamous incident, long a staple of IN Mailing List lore, #1 on the "Silly Kyriotate Tricks" -- possessing someone's underwear, and then casting a Song (IN-speak for 'spell') to fire a blast of acid.

From the guy's own underwear. :nonp:

[Fedifensor]

Yeah, but there's one thing worse even than Kyrios of Destiny... and that's Kyrios of Lightning.
Well, that explains a lot. Here's a snippet from the campaign webpage I used to maintain for the game I was in with David...


Xinul, Kyriotate of Destiny in service to Lightning (played by David Edelstein)
Xinul was put on Earth by Jean to investigate the recent appearance of the Tether of Vapula. Despite gaining dissonance when Singh's body was killed by a Vapulan device, Xinul has maintained a positive outlook. However, recent feuds with both Jalel and Abdibon have made his assignment more difficult. Before this assignment, Xinul's main activity on Earth was as an Internet hunter of pedophiles and child pornography rings. He often possesses individuals with computer skills.
Yeah, I guess that is pretty much the definition of munchkin...

[Chuckg]

Hrm.

Being "In Service To" another Superior than your own does not *automatically* mean you get that other Superior's Choir Attunement in addition to the default one. That is to say, it doesn't automatically give him the Kyriotate of Lightning resonance boost in addition to the Kyrio of Destiny one he started out with.

It /does/ allow him the opportunity to purchase it with earned XP, though. Did he?

If so, then yes, Kyriotate of Destiny attunement + Kyriotate of Lightning attunement = wrath of ye gods, what was the DM *thinking*?

[Fedifensor]

Being "In Service To" another Superior than your own does not *automatically* mean you get that other Superior's Choir Attunement in addition to the default one. That is to say, it doesn't automatically give him the Kyriotate of Lightning resonance boost in addition to the Kyrio of Destiny one he started out with.

It /does/ allow him the opportunity to purchase it with earned XP, though. Did he?
Not at the time the campaign ended, though he did get Yves' 'Library Card' attunement. Since we keep talking about his Kyriotate, I'll go ahead and post the character sheet:

Xinul (updated as of Session 9)
Archangel: Yves (currently in service to Jean)
Choir: Kyriotate
Forces:
Corporeal: 2 (Strength 4, Agility 4)
Ethereal: 3 (Intelligence 8, Precision 4)
Celestial: 4 (Will 12, Perception 7)

Attunements:
Kyriotate of Yves (can access memories and skills of hosts)
Ofanim of Yves (add Celestial Forces to any Intelligence-based roll)
Library Card (can gain access to information, no matter how secure)

Songs:
Corporeal: Form/4, Healing/2
Ethereal: Form/3, Harmony/3
Celestial: Motion/4

Skills:
Knowledge (Internet Porn)/2, Computer Operation/1, Emote/1, Running/1

Dissonance: 1


I believe he raised his Perception to 8 to gain his 10th Celestial Force around Session 11.

---------------------
For reference, here is the character I was running:

Abdibon (updated as of Session 11)
Archangel: Yves
Choir: Seraphim
Vessel:
Human/3 (Don Abner, history student) - Status/2, Level/2
Human/1 (Abigail "Abby" Dibona, history and philosophy student) - Status/2, Level/2
Forces:
Corporeal: 2 (Strength 4, Agility 4)
Ethereal: 2 (Intelligence 5, Precision 3)
Celestial: 5 (Will 9, Perception 11)

Attunements:
Seraph of Raphael (can use resonance with no penalty on any form of recorded knowledge)
Seraph of Yves (know the true name of anyone touched, and any item seen clearly or handled)
Ofanim of Yves (add Celestial Forces to any Intelligence-based roll)
Divine Destiny (pay 1 Essence to see a mortal's destiny and fate)

Songs:
Corporeal: Acid/6, Wings/3, Tongues/3, Healing/2
Celestial: Motion/5, Healing/1

Skills:
Dodge/3, Fighting/2, Computer Operation/1, Knowledge: History/1

Servants:Cogitel, Reliever of Destiny (Rank/6, Level/1) - occupies Abdibon's unused vessel.

Dissonance: 0

Notes:
Updated as of session 11. Abdibon has accumulated 30 experience, and has spent 28 experience.

Abdibon has few skills because of his injuries several centuries ago, and his lack of recent experience with Earth. He normally defaults intelligence-based skills with little problem, due to his Ofanim of Yves attunement. The player is currently buying skills as Abdibon gets more exposure to mortals.
---------------------

Interestingly, even though my character had more character points (due in part to doing Contributions for extra XP, similar to what the Amber DRPG does), I wasn't very effective compared to Xinul even in my area of speciality (investigations). And I was basically told to buy the Divine Destiny attunement by the GM, at a time when the entire party was perpetually low on Essence.

You'd think that being a Seraph, with both Raphael's and Yves' attunements, I'd be pretty good at gathering knowledge. Yet when our group was trying to discover information, Xinul simply outclassed me. To be fair, I don't blame David for this - I blame the GM, who seemed paranoid about my character's potential ability to 'break' the plot by doing what I was designed to do. Plus, he seemed to give David more leeway because of his celebrity status. In person, David is a nice guy, though he does hold strong opinions (you can see that on his blog). I do agree he's pretty harsh when on message boards - a lot of people seem emboldened when they're talking via text rather than face-to-face.


Now, to turn the topic away from a campaign that holds some bad memories from me - have you seen any good conversions of In Nomine to another system? I think HERO would actually be a poor choice, because it doesn't do absolutes well - and In Nomine abilities are often absolutes. I think the Amber DRPG would be the best choice, though I've heard some good things about an out-of-print system called Theatrix.

[Chuckg]

I think the Amber DRPG would be the best choice, though I've heard some good things about an out-of-print system called Theatrix.

Any good things about Theatrix posted recently on the Heroboard have largely come from me. :D

And I agree with you that Theatrix, with its flexible powers system, would be the best diceless engine to try and convert In Nomine to. (Although if converting to *any* system, I'd try and change a few of the more broken attunements... like Library Card. Seriously, that's handing free access to every database on Earth to a starting PC. And it's supposedly the most common Servitor Attunement in Destiny. You wonder how the hell Heaven is possibly not cleaning house at this rate...)

However, this belief comes with a caveat -- it's all in theory. I haven't actually had a chance to try it yet, or for that matter, to try Theatrix yet.

[Fedifensor]

However, this belief comes with a caveat -- it's all in theory. I haven't actually had a chance to try it yet, or for that matter, to try Theatrix yet.
If you can stand going to his site, David Edelstien has a great summary of Theatrix here: http://www.amadan.org/Theatrix/Theatrix-summary.html

It also lists some Theatrix conversions, including Highlander and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Now, my next step would be to actually buy a copy of Theatrix...

[Chuckg]

Been there, saw it, chuckled over the idea of Edelstein's website actually helping me do something.

And I got an out-of-print copy of Theatrix from a place called Titan Games, but dunno if they got another one. Check around various mail-order RPG stores with lots of old inventory, Theatrix done be out of pritn for a while.

Note -- Theatrix is not playable without the reference charts bundled in with the core book. When I bought mine, it didn't come with the charts. Fortunately, a friend of mine also had an old copy of Theatrix, and sent me copies. If you buy it and it ain't got copies, PM me.

[Amadan]

Well, hello Fedifensor. I remember who you are, though I am afraid I don't remember your real name. It's been a few years, and I'm no longer living in Texas.

I happened to stumble onto this thread while perusing my website's access logs (trying to find where all my bandwidth has been going lately...)

Anyway, I am not going to address Chuckg's personal observations about me. I remember him very well too. :rolleyes:

I think his assessment of the change in tone from "early" In Nomine to post-Beth In Nomine has a few grains of truth in it, but is somewhat unfair (and also not entirely accurate -- there was another Line Editor prior to Beth, and he had a much more gritty view of the In Nomine universe... the problem was that he pretty much dropped off the face of the earth during the game's crucial early period, and I think that in large part is the reason why it never really became a success). Most problems with the inconsistency in tone stemmed from the fact that for months there was no single person in charge, just a bunch of egotistical writers writing their personal visions of In Nomine, and no one keeping them in line. This happened, unfortunately, while the first few books were coming out. (Including the Liber Reliquarum, my first editing job. Yes, the adventures were horribly deux ex machina and railroady.... with some experience under my belt, I would have been bolder about saying "Hey, I think this is a problem," but at the time I was more concerned with making sure everything looked like good English and didn't break the rules, and kind of relying on the Managing Editor or Steve to tell me if he thought the adventures themselves sucked.)

Concerning the charge of "munchkinism," though, I have to defend myself. ;)

Keep in mind, for all the In Nomine writing I'd done, I hadn't had much chance to actually play it. So I honestly didn't realize just how powerful (and game-derailing) a Kyriotate of Destiny could be when I made that character. I wasn't trying to be a munchkin....

(Now, I did half-jokingly try to talk the GM into letting me have both the Kyriotate of Destiny and the Kyriotate of Lightning attunements, which I did know would be overkill, but fortunately he was wise enough to nix that. :D)

I'd also dispute that the GM gave me more leeway because of my "celebrity" status. It was more a matter of me knowing the rules and background more thoroughly than he did, and so he'd often ask my opinion, which I suppose may have given the appearance of me having undue influence. I really tried not to work that to my advantage, and I think he really tried not to show favoritism. He was inexperienced with running In Nomine, and suffered the problem a lot of new In Nomine GMs have, which is realizing that you just cannot keep secrets from angelic PCs, especially not Seraphs. Any In Nomine plot that relies on some deep secret remaining a mystery to the PCs is pretty much doomed to fail the first time an angel with the right attunements starts resonating.

Btw, Tim and I are both on another board for online gaming, and Tim is in fact running a version of his original In Nomine game set in Austin. (And no, I'm not playing a Kyriotate of Destiny this time.) If you are interested, drop me an e-mail...

[Chuckg]

I think his assessment of the change in tone from "early" In Nomine to post-Beth In Nomine has a few grains of truth in it, but is somewhat unfair (and also not entirely accurate -- there was another Line Editor prior to Beth, and he had a much more gritty view of the In Nomine universe... the problem was that he pretty much dropped off the face of the earth during the game's crucial early period, and I think that in large part is the reason why it never really became a success). Most problems with the inconsistency in tone stemmed from the fact that for months there was no single person in charge, just a bunch of egotistical writers writing their personal visions of In Nomine, and no one keeping them in line. This happened, unfortunately, while the first few books were coming out.


I would like to point out that if he's conceding that there was "for months there was no single person in charge, just a bunch of egotistical writers writing their personal visions of In Nomine, and no one keeping them in line", and that this happened "while the first few books were coming out" -- which he is indeed so conceding -- then that would mean that there were far more than a 'few grains' of truth to my version of events -- the flaws of the early supplements were indeed due to a complete lack of line editing, even if somebody was nominally *supposed* to be filling the post.

As for his allegedly not knowing just how broken Kyrios of Destiny are because he hadn't had much playing experience -- well, *I* knew how broken they were just from reading the basic rules, before I'd ever had a chance to see one in play(1), and I'm not the guy who wrote the Game Master's Guide for "In Nomine", so, really, I wonder what his excuse is.




(1) Seeing as how I haven't seen one in play *yet* -- no IN game I've been in has had a player who's taken one. Although I did DM once for a guy who took a Kyrio of Lightning, and oh dear Lord did /that/ get out of control fast.

[daeudi_454]

I happened to stumble onto this thread while perusing my website's access logs (trying to find where all my bandwidth has been going lately...)
Uhhm... Does anyone else find that really really creepy?
He's either telling the truth (which is again- creepy)
Or he hunts the web to see who mentions him (Just as, well- creepy)

If I'm wrong, and this is common behavior for people with their own website, please let me know.

Regarding the Munckin claims- If anyone believes he didn't know it was munchkin, IM me... I have some stuff I want to sell you.

[Chuckg]

Well, it is not unusual a webmaster to keep traffic stats of his own site, and wonder why there was a sudden spike. It's also possible to backtrack link referrals... some webhosts allow you to know how a viewer who got to your page found your page, whether it was via a search engine or a hyperlink from another page.

On the other hand, the only link to David Edelstein's web domain from this thread (edit -- before today) was that Theatrix page link that Fedifensor posted three weeks ago, and I seriously doubt that so many people clicked on that that it actually caused him to start worrying about his bandwidth quota or showed up as a noticeable spike. Not unless the normal level of traffic for his webpage is 'zero'.

On the other other hand, if you want creepy, browse on over to his website and find the page where he maintains his little enemies' list.

http://www.amadan.org/rants/wingnuts_trolls.html

Note -- the last time David and me clashed on Pyramid was late 2000. (The last time on the In Nomine mailing list was, if I remember correctly, 2001.) So in my case at least, he's been enshrining our grudge on his webpage for four or five years. Some, if not all, of those others are even older.

[daeudi_454]

Nope, I stand by my thought.... its creepy.

Troll #4: Charles Glasgow, aka "chuckg"

"chuckg" started out as just another belligerent, opinionated person who liked arguing politics. (Actually, he started out by jumping into an argument over whether a Salon essay by David Brin on the virtues on "Star Trek" vs. "Star Wars"
....
His defining characteristic is the belief that his opinion is Objective Truth.
....With regards to me, we got into some argument over something I don't even remember, he declared that I was Wrong
Gee Chuck... maybe we're related :) And Amadala, let it go man, just let it go. Your #1 Troll is a guy who got canned, do you still work there?.... If you are tracking your websites usage, then you in theory keep your pages current- and you still hold a grudge? pathetic.
AND CREEPY.
BTW... I am not Objectively Right. I am RIGHT. The rest of you are deluded.

EDIT: I recently made a promise to myself to stay out of certain NGD threads, so I will not be arguing politics with anyone. A
nd I won't hold any grudges again IUZ or LUCIOUS just because I disagree with them. And i like their Gaming related thread posts.

But 4 year old internet grudges? lmao

[Chuckg]

Hello, thread drift. :D

Re: 'objectively' etc, etc. -- for the record, during the incidents when I claimed I was 'objectively right', it was because I was quoting something that was source material or reference material, not just stating my opinion. So, Edelstein's statement:


His defining characteristic is the belief that his opinion is Objective Truth. All those who disagreed with him were simply wrong, period, end of story (but not the end of his arguing or insulting people); it wasn't necessary to actually debate the issues because universal laws of reality established that he was right.

... is of course balderdash.

(edit -- especially his claim that I acted like 'it wasn't necessary to actually debate the issues'. Come *on*, folks. Me, *not* debating at length? Does that sound like the Chuckg you know? :rolleyes:)

Or, as I've said so often on NGD, "You're entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts."

This is unreasonable?

[daeudi_454]

I was mocking his Troll and Wingnut page... not you, Chuck :D

Drifting Back- Anyone know of any where powerful beings like angels and the like are NOT available as PCs?

[Chuckg]

*nods* I know, but I still wanted it on the record. Thanks.

As for a game where angels and suchlike exist, but are not playable PC races?

Well, "In Nomine" also allows for a 'Soldiers of God' (or 'Hellsworn') campaign, wherein the default PC power level is that of the mortal servants/auxiliaries of the angels or demons, and the angels and demons themselves are NPC patrons and antagonists. Check out 'Corporeal Player's Guide' for more, if you're interested.

[ghost-angel]

Nope, I stand by my thought.... its creepy.
Tracking web traces and page stats isn't creepy.

Knowing who is coming to you from where is a great marketing point. Let's you then figure out who is actually interested in your site and build content, or at least design, to fit that people actually visiting you.

[daeudi_454]

Tracking web traces and page stats isn't creepy.

Knowing who is coming to you from where is a great marketing point. Let's you then figure out who is actually interested in your site and build content, or at least design, to fit that people actually visiting you.
Which if he was selling something would make sense.
RPG link pages, a list of games he runs, English as a second language links, and rants about Atheism and how much he hates God and other people who have pissed him off.
Oh, and a blog about more things that piss him off- mostly God and people who believe God exists.

He isn't marketing anything.
Other than his blog the last update we can find is the InNomine page updated June 2005.
He isn't tracking for anything other than to stalk people who come to his site.

[ghost-angel]

In this case it may be Stalker Creepy - in general, you're always marketing something. Even if you're not selling something you're marketing the information you provide to people, or yourself (such as a blog).

Marketing doesn't need to end in the transaction of goods/services for money.

[Chuckg]

*on second thought, we don't need to go there. deleted*

[Amadan]

Uhhm... Does anyone else find that really really creepy?
He's either telling the truth (which is again- creepy)
Or he hunts the web to see who mentions him (Just as, well- creepy)

If I'm wrong, and this is common behavior for people with their own website, please let me know.

Regarding the Munckin claims- If anyone believes he didn't know it was munchkin, IM me... I have some stuff I want to sell you.
Jeez, paranoid much?

I've been getting unusually high bandwidth bills lately, so I was checking my logs to see who was linking to pages or files on my site. Usually bandwidth consumption comes from people hot-linking to image files, but I happened to notice a link from herogames.com, and since I had never been on this board before, I was curious.

As for me being a munchkin -- there are actually worse things one can do in In Nomine than play a Kyriotate of Destiny. If I had wanted to be a munchkin I could have gotten away with much worse. :D

(I don't agree that the attunement is "broken," but I do agree that, as with certain powers in Champions, it can do things that will flat-out break many scenarios and therefore should not be allowed unless the GM completely understands the ramifications and is willing to design scenarios with that power in mind. It's kind of like saying Variable Power Poools are "broken" in Champions. Not entirely true, but they can easily run amok and hence I know many GMs who simply won't allow them, which is perfectly legitimate.)

[Amadan]

Note -- the last time David and me clashed on Pyramid was late 2000. (The last time on the In Nomine mailing list was, if I remember correctly, 2001.) So in my case at least, he's been enshrining our grudge on his webpage for four or five years. Some, if not all, of those others are even older.

That's about how long it's been since I've updated, or even looked at, that page. But I'm glad you are still getting entertainment value out of it. ;)

[Amadan]

Drifting Back- Anyone know of any where powerful beings like angels and the like are NOT available as PCs?

Ars Magica has had several supplements detailing divine and diabolical beings which serve more as plot devices than NPCs. Pendragon also had some rather sketchy rules for letting angels or demons make an appearance.

[Amadan]

Which if he was selling something would make sense.
RPG link pages, a list of games he runs, English as a second language links, and rants about Atheism and how much he hates God and other people who have pissed him off.
Oh, and a blog about more things that piss him off- mostly God and people who believe God exists.


Hmm, has my site been hacked? Can you please point out the page where I say that I "hate God" or people who believe God exists? Thanks.

[Agent X]

That's about how long it's been since I've updated, or even looked at, that page. But I'm glad you are still getting entertainment value out of it. ;) There is a certain irony to a list of trolls. Calling someone a troll is essentially calling them out for being needlessly argumentative. Having a list up for years on people you deem trolls seems needlessly argumentative which sort of fits the definition of trollish behavior.

[Amadan]

Eh, fair point. What can I say? Irony amuses me. (Actually, I haven't done a purge of outdated pages in a long time. Sooner or later I'll probably take the rogues' gallery down. Things that were entertaining years ago are less so when you no longer have the time or inclination to get involved in online dramas.)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Dude...
The I.N. webmaster joined the Hero boards and ganked my nick.

Bogus.

[Amadan]

Dude...
The I.N. webmaster joined the Hero boards and ganked my nick.


Dude, I've been using this nick since 1994. (Arguably I've been an Amadán much longer :D).

(And I'm not the IN webmaster, if you mean the official In Nomine website.)

[daeudi_454]

EDIT: nevermind- its not worth it. I am here for Hero, not this...

[AmadanNaBriona]

Dude, I've been using this nick since 1994. (Arguably I've been an Amadán much longer :D).

(And I'm not the IN webmaster, if you mean the official In Nomine website.)
I knew... KNEW... you were gonna say something like this.

Without getting into the "who's been an Amadan longer" pi$$ing match, suffice to say that its the craft name I took after my year and a day initiation period about 15 years ago.

We've both been Fools for a good long time, but I have you beat on the boards here :D

(BTW, my company is Amadan Creations... and yeah, I have seen your website before.. when I was looking at domain options. You've had an online presence longer than I have)

[ross_winn]

The original French version of In Nomine is about French political in-fighting. Even it had more respect for Christians than the SJG version did. A lot of people have been influenced by faith in their roleplaying, and in many different ways. I was apalled at the tone taken in the In Nomine supplements, and I am still shocked by it. One of the keys to this, in my mind, is to realize that people interpret God fallibly, but he isn't fallible. Drawing a line in the sand is never a good idea.

[daeudi_454]

At GenCon, I have been astounded by the prevalence of games that embrace antagonism towards the concept of God. Not atheism, but outright emnity. I wonder why so many gamers reject the idea of a benevolent deity, and instead choose atheism or even revel in the concepts of evil. And please, no one give me any crap about gamers being smarter or more aware of reality. The RPGA isn't exactly filled with MENSA members (which - to exascerbate my point, shows the same religious percentage of the masses).

[Amadan]

I knew... KNEW... you were gonna say something like this.

Without getting into the "who's been an Amadan longer" pi$$ing match, suffice to say that its the craft name I took after my year and a day initiation period about 15 years ago.

We've both been Fools for a good long time, but I have you beat on the boards here :D

(BTW, my company is Amadan Creations... and yeah, I have seen your website before.. when I was looking at domain options. You've had an online presence longer than I have)

Hey man, no problem. :) I was kind of amused when I saw that there was already an "AmadanNaBriona" here, but I was pleased that no one had taken "Amadan" as a handle yet. (I usually use it as my nick when I sign onto a new board, but for large ones, especially with a gaming/fantasy theme, someone else has usually nabbed it first.)

[Amadan]

At GenCon, I have been astounded by the prevalence of games that embrace antagonism towards the concept of God. Not atheism, but outright emnity. I wonder why so many gamers reject the idea of a benevolent deity, and instead choose atheism or even revel in the concepts of evil. And please, no one give me any crap about gamers being smarter or more aware of reality. The RPGA isn't exactly filled with MENSA members (which - to exascerbate my point, shows the same religious percentage of the masses).
Dude, I know there are atheists who take that attitude, but I'm not one of them. Just because I don't believe something doesn't mean I hate or hold in contempt those who do. I'm sorry if having encountered some of the more militant types has given you a negative view of all atheists, but please consider that judging every atheist by the most aggressively confrontational among them is no more fair than me judging all Christians by Fred Phelps and Jack Chick.

It might amuse you to know that during the writing and editing of In Nomine supplements, I have often been the one who's argued in favor of putting more religious content into the books, and with a more benevolent slant, whereas other authors and fans have been more inclined to either ignore faith as "too touchy" (in a game about Heaven and Hell and God and Lucifer???? or else write Christians and other believers as being inept clueless do-gooders at best, useful fools at worst.

Without delving into my personal beliefs too much (that is what my blog is for), I do not "hate God" nor do I hate religious people, and I'm rather offended that you think atheism is on some sliding scale that leads towards "reveling in evil." I know there are atheists who are militant about their atheism and belligerent and insulting towards anyone who expresses any religious beliefs at all, and, well, I tend to avoid those people for the same reason I avoid fundamentalists who tell me I'm going to burn in hell.

So, I very definitely believe God and religion should be an important theme in In Nomine, and treated respectfully (which is not to say you can't have elements of satire.) Even though I do not personally believe in God or angels, when I run In Nomine games, I have no problem creating a fictional universe in which people like me are just plain dead wrong. :D

I find religion fascinating and whether I believe in God, Krishna, karma, any assorted collection of deities or spirits, or nothing at all, the wide variety of beliefs to be found among people of all faiths makes for interesting cultural texture. One of the failings of many fantasy settings is that religion is either ignored or is just some sort of generic fantasy template: "The people in the city of Golboran-Thul worship Skart'ak, the God of Bad-*** Spikey Polearms." :rolleyes:

I've heard of some players who refuse to play In Nomine because they are atheists and they can't accept a game in which they have to pretend that God is real. For that matter, I've heard of pagan players who refuse to play a game in which there really is a single, omnipotent Judeo-Christian deity. I don't get that -- I mean, what's the point of roleplaying if you can't put yourself into a different mindset and imagine worlds that are different from the one you live in?

I've always been fond of Dominic, Archangel of Judgment, Uriel, Archangel of Purity, and Khalid, the Archangel of Faith -- the Archangels who would be most intolerant of atheists like me. Why? Because their hardline doctrinaire religious beliefs make them interesting. It takes nuance and skill to make Archangels who are inflexible, absolutely certain of their righteousness, and quite willing to exterminate everyone who disagrees with them, still come off as sympathetic and even benevolent, with the implied possibility that they just might be right about everything. Notice that those three are the Archangels that seem to be most hated by the atheist/pagan/anarchist wing of IN fans.

One of my problems with Dominic's expanded writeup was that all angels of Judgment come off as being either stereotypical humorless, inflexible tools, or else skirting dissonance... i.e., it's implied that you can't really play an Angel of Judgment who's fun and open-minded unless you're constantly bending the rules and on the verge of getting slapped down by your boss.

Now, I don't know if I really pulled off the nuance I was trying to achieve with Khalid. I had to work with what Derek Pearcy left me, after all. (Derek was, ahem, not receptive way back when I tried to point out that his writeup essentiall depicted Khalid as the Archangel of Ragheaded Truckbombers and made it unlikely that anyone would want to play one of his Servitors.)

Ironically, I've been criticized for my expanded writeup of Khalid both for making him too nice and for not making him nice enough. Some people say he's still little more than the Archangel of Ragheaded Truckbombers, others say I "whitewashed" Islam and tried to make Khalid too PC. Go figure.

In the GMG, I really tried to give a fair and respectful overview of all religions, and work with Canon Doubt and Certainty to leave the possibility open (according to individual GMs' tastes) that any particular belief might be the "right" one in In Nomine. Even the fundamentalist brand of Christianity that I have the biggest problem with personally. But again, you might find it amusing and ironic that I argued quite strongly (and lost) that In Nomine should take an official canon position that God is in fact omnipotent and the one true deity and that all the ethereal spirits are posers and lesser beings. (I.e., I am not a big fan of the so-called "Ethereal heresy," which proposes that celestials are just hopped-up ethereals and God is a former ethereal spirit who found some way of elevating himself in power above all his former peers. Officially, whether or not this is true remains Canon Doubt and Uncertainty.)

[daeudi_454]

I'm rather offended that you think atheism is on some sliding scale that leads towards "reveling in evil." But again, you might find it amusing and ironic that I argued quite strongly (and lost) that In Nomine should take an official canon position that God is in fact omnipotent and the one true deity and that all the ethereal spirits are posers and lesser beings. (I.e., I am not a big fan of the so-called "Ethereal heresy," which proposes that celestials are just hopped-up ethereals and God is a former ethereal spirit who found some way of elevating himself in power above all his former peers. Officially, whether or not this is true remains Canon Doubt and Uncertainty.)
FYI Amadan: I started to withdraw my statement about hating God, caught myself going too far, and stopped the post. I am trying not to get too wrapped up in it, but I am weak, lol.
And regarding what you just quoted, please note that I said "Not atheism, but outright emnity." and "choose atheism or even revel in the concepts of evil." I'm not saying that Atheism embraces evil- at least not the passive kind like you espouse on your page.( I find it sad, but that's because all atheism offers is humanity- and I have seen the best and worst of man. I realize that organized religion has done much wrong in this world but that is a topic for another thread: The Corruption of Faiths. i.e. Jews and Moslems have been fighting for thousands of years over "Jacob has more than me." (Jacob and Essau)) Regarding different religions, I have always believed that YWH, Allah, and the Trinity were the same.

[ross_winn]

There is a lot of religious backlash against people of faith (like myself) within the hobby. I do not jusdge anyone based on the actions of others, but I do see these types of attacks commonly occuring.

[Chuckg]

I will agree with David Edelstein that the original writeup of Archangel Khalid was a racist tragedy, and I highly approved of the revised writeup in Superiors 3. And I don't agree with the complaints that it was 'too PC'. Of *course* Khalid should embody the highest, most idealistic possible interpretation of Islam, even if that means it's more idealistic than the 'real world'. Being more idealistic than the real world is precisely what angels are *for*, innit?

(Likewise, Khalid's alternate-timeline writeup as the Demon Prince of Fanaticism, or Fallen Khalid, epitomized the absolute worst traits of radical Islamic fanatics... which is precisley what *demons* are for.)

I disagree with him that the game should have taken an official canon position on the One True Nature of God(*), as doing so would have -- no matter what position was taken -- had the practical effect of alienating at least half of the potential customer base. The only question would be, which half. And In Nomine doesn't sell enough as is.

(Oh, and for the record, I'm Catholic.)



(*) Although, as I understand the canon, the 'God is a jumped-up Ethereal option' is clearly labeled as a Heresy -- that is to say, a non-canonical suggestion for DMs who want to turn the canon light off and have fun playing an alternate version of the game. So, really, the game *has* taken a canonical position, I guess. It just also suggests that if you want to ignore canon for your own private campaign, you can. Which is always the privilege of the DM, in any game.

[Amadan]

There is a lot of religious backlash against people of faith (like myself) within the hobby. I do not jusdge anyone based on the actions of others, but I do see these types of attacks commonly occuring.

I'm not sure I'd agree that "lots of people with belligerent attitudes" constitutes "backlash." I've already stated that I don't think anyone should abuse someone else for their religious beliefs (or lack thereof), but it's not like you're being denied entrance to cons and have no voice in the hobby. I could make just as strong a case for backlash against atheists within the hobby. (But I wouldn't because I don't think there is any, just people on both sides full of a need to badmouth the other.)

Anyway, I would like to know what about In Nomine you find disrespectful to Christianity? Admittedly the religious themes have been fairly muted in most of the supplements, but other than the fact that any overt religiousity on the part of the Archangels has been watered down, where has Christianity (or any other religion) been treated unfairly? I'm particularly perplexed by your claim that the French version was more respectful to Christianity (Archangel Jesus as a spoiled daddy's boy?).

[FenrisUlf]

Warning -- this will be very OT.

Amadan -- I can't say anything about the In Nomine game, but thanks & my appreciation for what you saiid above about trying to use real-world faiths in a game setting in a respectful setting. Since most folks here are convinced that you've managed that, you deserve credit for it. Maybe I should at least look at it sometime or other.

And judging all atheists by the standard of the frothing fanatics is a bad idea. Unfortunately, things being what they are here in the US, they're the ones who get the most publicity. If you could bring back C.S. Lewis and Bertrand Russell for an hour-long, intellectual, and respectful dicussion on TV about atheism as compared to faith, and on another channel have Jerry Springer running a verbal brawl between Madelyn Murray O'Hare and Fred Phelps, just which show would get the attention?

I still remember some of the drek that showed up in White Wolf games concerning "real Christianity", all of which seemed to begin with the Inquisition (or rather, the legend of the Inquisition) and to end with Phelps.

[Greg]

even revel in the concepts of evil." I'm not saying that Atheism embraces evil- at least not the passive kind like you espouse on your page.( I find it sad, but that's because all atheism offers is humanity- and I have seen the best and worst of man. I realize that organized religion has done much wrong in this world but that is a topic for another thread: The Corruption of Faiths. i.e. Jews and Moslems have been fighting for thousands of years over "Jacob has more than me." (Jacob and Essau))

I'm about as atheist as you're going to get, but I love the concept of there being a higher power (or powers). I could play paladins from here to next week, but that's not going to make me change my real world beliefs. If you get your Narnia game in swing count me in.


Regarding different religions, I have always believed that YWH, Allah, and the Trinity were the same.

I'm sure we're way off-topic at this point, but that's one of those concepts that's nice in theory, but pretty contradictory to people's religious texts.

[daeudi_454]

I'm sure we're way off-topic at this point, but that's one of those concepts that's nice in theory, but pretty contradictory to people's religious texts.
Not really, all three were the God of Abraham.
Abraham, forefather of Israel is acknowledge by Islam as Ibrahim... their forefather.
The people of Israel knew Jesus was talking about YHWH when He referred to His Father, they just thought he was being blasphemous.

And what I meant was that: I find it odd that a hobby based on the premise of participants playing the part of heroes<usually> in the battle of Good vs Evil would have so many who either rejected the idea of those virtues having an Entity attached to them (Atheism), or choose to relish the darker of the two (the embrace of evil).

[OddHat]

And what I meant was that: I find it odd that a hobby based on the premise of participants playing the part of heroes<usually> in the battle of Good vs Evil would have so many who either rejected the idea of those virtues having an Entity attached to them (Atheism), or choose to relish the darker of the two (the embrace of evil).

Evil in gaming generally means wearing black and not having to listen to authority figures. Most teens embrace "evil". Eventually, most of them grow out of it.

Debating Atheism vs Theism is deeply pointless, and is also NGD teritory. Of course, so is this thread at this stage. ;)

[Chuckg]

Amadan -- I can't say anything about the In Nomine game, but thanks & my appreciation for what you saiid above about trying to use real-world faiths in a game setting in a respectful setting. Since most folks here are convinced that you've managed that, you deserve credit for it.

Actually, him /and/ Beth McCoy deserve credit for it. Let us not slight Beth's tremendous accomplishments. She's done an amazing job both as Line Editor and as contributing author for the line.

That said, David Edelstein's writing on 'In Nomine' has been 99% uniformly of very high quality -- and that compliment means *more* coming from me, because I can hardly be accused of letting personal sentiment weight my appraisal of his writing.

... at least, not in the /positive/ direction. :)

[Amadan]

I'm sure we're way off-topic at this point, but that's one of those concepts that's nice in theory, but pretty contradictory to people's religious texts.

Actually, no. Muhammad himself said that Christians and Jews were all "People of the Book" and worshipped the same God, Judaism accepts that Christians and Muslims worship the same God they do (but maintain that they are of course wrong about Jesus and Mohammad, respectively), and Christians.... well, there is certainly a Jack Chick element of Christianity that believes Muslims are worshipping a false God and Jews only think they are worshipping God since they aren't also worshipping Jesus, but most mainstream Christian sects do consider the God of Abraham to be the same one all three faiths worship.

Now, in practice we know that believing the other guys worship the same God doesn't keep people from trying to kill each other anyway for worshipping God the wrong way, or on the wrong side of the border, but it's not the texts that say God by any other name isn't God.

(Hey, the thread title includes "Biblical literalist" so it's not that off-topic...)

[daeudi_454]

That's what I said :p Amdan said it better tho' :(