Star Wars - Balancing Jedi with everyone else and heroic vs. superheroic

[Greg]

After playing KOTOR2 my group and I are itching to play some Star Wars and since I've already taught them Hero we're not going to change systems. I've got some ideas that I think work well, but I haven't seen anything quite like this mentioned in the plethora of lightsaber and Jedi writeups.

I'm going to propose that characters use most of the super-heroic guidlines for character creation. Any Jedi from the movies is going to be expensive and the only way to make a lightsaber remotely balance is to make the player pay for it with points. Further, our lightsaber build is somewhere around 60 real points, plus the force VPP is around 100 so we're talking pretty high-powered characters. So for now let's just say 350 point characters.

However, Jedi force powers aside nobody, including Jedi, are super characters in terms of stats. So my second part of the proposal is observing NCM and "requesting" that some percentage of points be put into equipment. For the Jedi that'll be their lightsaber, for a smuggler it's going to be a ship and their wookie. I think that leads to Jedi who are relatively naked beyond their powers and swords and at the same time lets others balance themselves with ships, bases and followers.

For some reason the above seems sort of un-hero by laying out point guidlines, but the end result seems to be pretty much perfect. Does anyone have a campaign where they did something similar and are there problems with having non-super supers?

[Citizen Keen]

I've never done anything like this, but it sounds really well balanced and perfect. Forces the players to get lots of skills and contacts and resources that they wouldn't otherwise get. Some cybernetic reconstruction... Man, that seems brilliant!

[Baphomet Jones]

Those extra points will also help them out paying for droids, or the dozens of languages they'd need to understand just to have a conversation in a bar.

One idea that we had in a tentative Star Wars campaign was to have each player make one Jedi (at a superheric point level), and one or more heroic level characters. At that point the adventures would be structured like the movies, where the Jedis would have to face The Big Menace, and the other heroes would have to focus on the "nail missions" to insure they succeeded (rescuing people, blowing up shield generators/droid control ships and whatnot). Play would shift between each group scene by scene as each neared their goal and the whole thing came together for the big explosion, or lightsaber duel at the end. While this isnt really an idea for balancing the "super" and heroic level characters, everyone would have a Jedi character that would get to be in the spotlight at some point for the big saber duel, lessening the feeling of being overshadowed.

[Nevenall]

Sounds like a promising interesting. There's no reason a heroic character can't be build on whatever points you want, and it's important for the GM to set point buying guidelines in any game.

I never had to deal what balancing non-Force users, everyone in my Jedi Acadamy Campaign is a Jedi. What I did was to divide the cost of all Force powers that aren't skills by 3.

Here is a list of setting conversions to Hero, might help you get a head start.
Lord Liaden's List of Lots of Links (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23298)

Have fun!

[Lucius]

Your initial idea sounds fine to me, if I understood it correctly. I don't think setting out the kind of points guidelines you're talking about is any more "un-Hero" than limiting damage classes or active points or any other campaign guidelines. And you can always waive them if someone has an idea that just doesn't fit, but that you still think will work as a character!

Lucius Alexander

You'd be surprised at where I can fit a palindromedary...

[Greg]

Great, it's good to see I'm not completely coming out of left field. To ease in players I'm going to write-up templates for:

bounty hunter - combat/gadgeteer VPP
smuggler - lots of rogue type skills/jack of all trades
droid - a couple different models, but mainly tech skills and some gadgets
jedi - the obvious, but will probably be the most work since I want to spell out their powers so as not to abuse their VPP: Force

any other good archetypes I'm missing? Maybe mercenary, soldier or ambassador.

[Jaxom]

Well, to swipe from the d20 SW system, there are flavors of Jedi. Counselor, guardian (warrior) and pilot. There's also the non-Jedi force sensative group.

Soldiers (think Stormtrooper or possibly Bounty Hunter), Scoundrel or Fringer (Smugglers, both with different flavor), Droid (although this becomes a huge category all by itself if you are letting PCs be droids instead of taking them as henchmen), Noble (Ambassador), Tech Specialist (Mechanic), Scout (Chewbacca falls into this category).

StarWars also allows cross-classing. Being a force-sensative soldier is one way of coming at being a bounty hunter. Being a Scoundrel is another. Tech is not necessarily a requirement.

I'd come at this from a slightly different perspective though...

Ambassadors should spend a load of points on contacts and skills and probably one or more droid henchmen (unless they are force sensative which will eat many of those points).

Smugglers should be spending points on skills and a ship (base). It is possible for multiple characters to contribute to a single ship.

I am assuming that the Jedi VPP is going to be a cosmic VPP. Once you're there, you may have a problem limiting how it gets used. You might be better off making it a Multipower so that players have to take (and hence specify) the power stunts that they can use. This would also allow you to predefine the kinds of powerstunts that are allowed. It'll also help you figure out how many force tricks they can keep up at once (might have to drop the droid while lifting the star-fighter).

Soldiers and Bounty Hunters could be gadget based (get ready to read up on power armor focii builds) or more skills and equipment (like laser blasters and stuff).

You might also want to define specific martial forms for different groups like Jedi (lightsaber form) and Stormtroopers (Imperial combat training).


Generally speaking, though, I don't see a lot of need to do all this work if you trust your players to build something that fits the setting. If your players are relatively new to the system (only built one character so far?) then you might want to propose some of these ideas for them to chew on.

[Greg]

It's basically going to be a VPP with the limitation 'learned powers.' I was going with the idea of a multipower for awhile, but the my co-GM really wants the flexibility of a VPP. I can go either way, but see advantages of either way.

[Admiral C]

So my second part of the proposal is observing NCM and "requesting" that some percentage of points be put into equipment. For the Jedi that'll be their lightsaber, for a smuggler it's going to be a ship and their wookie.

A wookie classified as equipment? Now wonder their so bad tempered.

[Greg]

Yeah, I didn't want to diss Chewie, but he didn't even get a medal at the end of A New Hope which kind of seems to prove my theory.

[Ura-Maru]

Heh. I personally think ALL games should be ‘superheroic.’ Free equipment messes the whole system up. :)

Besides, characters in 90% of genere fiction DON’T swap their equipment kit out every three episodes. Just let them ‘radiation accident’ their equipment points as needed.

And RPGs in general are far, far too ‘stuff’ based.

So, short version, I agree with your plan.

---
The problem is partially source material, though. Jedi ARE just plain more powerful than the non-jedi equivalent . . . and the equipment thing only sorta solves it. It doesn’t matter to the rest of the party that the ship ‘belongs’ to the Smuggler if they can all use it, so the Smuggler is effectively about 30 points weaker than everyone else.

[Phil]

However, Jedi force powers aside nobody, including Jedi, are super characters in terms of stats. So my second part of the proposal is observing NCM and "requesting" that some percentage of points be put into equipment.

I like the equipment idea, but something else you can do to enforce balance is increase the NCM multiple. At the moment, high attributes are just so damned cost effective. In my fantasy game, I upped char maxima for different races to allow exceptional ability, but made upto 5 points above NCM cost x 3, and upto 10 points above NCM cost x6. Possible for players who want to be truly outstanding, but it becomes a significant investment.

[Greg]

I was thinking about making 20 a hard limit at character creation, higher/lower based on race, then just having the standard x2 after that. It's a lot harder to bite that x2 bullet with the 2-3xp you might have gotten from a game session.

I'm still torn on how to handle race packages. If the net gain from a racial package is 0 should it count against your point total? Plus, should stat adjustments be +3 STR or say +3 STR Max? It's always been a hard one for me in Hero since theres nothing that really makes a Wookie (PC character) stronger then a human PC other then they spent more points.

[UltraRob]

I was thinking about making 20 a hard limit at character creation, higher/lower based on race, then just having the standard x2 after that. It's a lot harder to bite that x2 bullet with the 2-3xp you might have gotten from a game session.

I'm still torn on how to handle race packages. If the net gain from a racial package is 0 should it count against your point total? Plus, should stat adjustments be +3 STR or say +3 STR Max? It's always been a hard one for me in Hero since theres nothing that really makes a Wookie (PC character) stronger then a human PC other then they spent more points.

A better way to handle it, given that Star Wars is supposed to be a sort of infinite fantasy setting is rather than worry about racial packages let the PCs make their own "races". The simplest way to do it is this:

Allow each PC to have:

1 "exceptional" stat that caps at 30. ( for main stats, should they wish to buy it that high)
1 "impressive" stat that caps at 25 (ditto)
1 "dude!" stat that caps at 20 (same same)
and everything else caps at 15. (except figureds, of course)

They can't buy anything over those numbers, except maybe with experience, and at X2 cost.

Then let them go wild, within your sense of reason anyway.

You could even say that they can trade one of those "high" stat maxes in for a "power", like Flight, or regeneration, or body armour that they couldn't normally have. That "spot" then becomes Max 15.

Now you can have an alien assassin whose 30 DEX lets them walk next to the Jedi, or a Chewbacca that can lift a cargo container. They just have to explain their exceptional stats, and now they can do whatever they want in terms of character creation. (yes, it's possible they'll all drop the 30 into DEX, but that's the chance you take, and they do blow a huge amount of points on it.)

Rob

[Lezentauw]

Heh. I personally think ALL games should be ‘superheroic.’ Free equipment messes the whole system up. :)

Besides, characters in 90% of genere fiction DON’T swap their equipment kit out every three episodes. Just let them ‘radiation accident’ their equipment points as needed.

And RPGs in general are far, far too ‘stuff’ based.

So, short version, I agree with your plan.

---
The problem is partially source material, though. Jedi ARE just plain more powerful than the non-jedi equivalent . . . and the equipment thing only sorta solves it. It doesn’t matter to the rest of the party that the ship ‘belongs’ to the Smuggler if they can all use it, so the Smuggler is effectively about 30 points weaker than everyone else.

As another possibility, you could use the resource points as suggested from Dark Champions.

[TheRavenIs]

I say it all looks good. Go for it. Good Luck let us know how it goes.

[Mr. Negative]

I think you've got a fine handle on the situation. You might want to make everybody pay for all of their gear, and not just the Jedi. Then the bounty hunter with cool armor doesn't get a boost over the smuggler. It also explains why people don't seem to lug gear all over the place, but instead just carry a blaster.

Also, your "non-jedi" characters, in addition to paying for vehicles and droids and contacts (and bases, don't forget bases) can load up on those cool powers that reflect Star Wars so well, such as Luck, Combat Luck, and all those neat builds that allow them to run through Stormtrooper fire with only a scorch, while others die in droves.

I don't think that Jedi are automatically more powerful than everyone else, IF you make them pay for resources and gear. Sure, the Jedi is more powerful than the little old smuggler, but what about the smuggler with a blaster, a souped up hyderdrive freighter, contacts over the entire galaxy, and multiple hidey-holes? The others may get to use those contacts, bases, and vehicles, but a properly-motivated smuggler will never let them forget exactly who saved their bacon (or who's captain of the Falcon).

[Greg]

Yeah, everybody would have to pay for equipment. I'd still like money to be a driving force for certain types of characters so I need to come up with some incentive to those archetypes. This project has gotten a little derailed though because of players wanting to play dark side and some arguments over the nature of the force. I guess that's just what happens when you try something so close to certain fans. Once I get to lay all this out on paper though i'll hopefully bring this to some fruition.

[austenandrews]

I think balancing character points is way overrated.

[Greg]

Most of the members of my group come from a Rifts background and I feel they need structure in their lives after such abuse.

[CSgeekHero]

Great job, Greg.

This gives me plenty of help for my own Star Wars ideas.

Plus, notice that Jedi are balanced to non-Jedi in points while keeping the Star Wars flavor. Unlike the now defunct official versions, your decription has a Star Wars feel.

[Manic Typist]

I know I'm inviting myself to get flammed hard but...

In my OPINION... which I think I have come to reasonbly........ based off of MOVIE Jedi (it's been a while since I've read ANY Jedi literature)....

I think a well-trained commando could rip a Jedi to pieces. Once he got within arm's reach.

Thoughts?

[austenandrews]

Depends on the Jedi. Adventurer Jedi like OWK, QGJ and the Skywalkers will slug it out with anyone. Obviously there are librarians and bureaucrats and whatnot who are less capable in close combat.

[Nevenall]

I know I'm inviting myself to get flammed hard but...

In my OPINION... which I think I have come to reasonbly........ based off of MOVIE Jedi (it's been a while since I've read ANY Jedi literature)....

I think a well-trained commando could rip a Jedi to pieces. Once he got within arm's reach.

Thoughts?

You mean mano a mano? I think the commando would find his manos on the flooro real quick.

There is always ambushes and explosives, that tends to even the score.

[Greg]

The EU balances things a bit by having a composite material that can reflect lightsabers. As well as KOTOR, which has personal force fields. In the g-canon universe a trooper may not be able to take a Jedi, but they're going to have an array of blasters and grenades that'll put them one up against crowds or against vehicles.

[Manic Typist]

Sorry, I completely forgot I posted here! Haha!

Anyway. I think that most commandos could take on most Jedi. Why you ask?

Jedi can't fight worth a shiny nickle.

Seriously! Think about it. They have been given completely unstopabble weapons. So, they just need enough hand eye coordination to NOT hit themselves, and they can slaughter everything that moves (and most things that don't)!

No skill. The only time Jedi display any real martial skill is when fighting other Jedi, and maybe when they are deflecting lasers. But, that's more because of the Force anyway.

Also, I would be intersted in seeing what a solid slug would do if hit by a Jedi laser. I think it would just slide through it, with some damage, and impact into the fleshyness beneath.

But, once within arms reach (I.E. within the reach of the god-killing sabers)...... Jedi can't do jack. Their Force powers are virtually useless, and any decent commando would be able to deflect them. The commandos would use joint locks, strikes, and breaks to basically dismantle the Jedi piece by piece.

It would be hilarious to watch.

[starblaze]

The EU balances things a bit by having a composite material that can reflect lightsabers. As well as KOTOR, which has personal force fields. In the g-canon universe a trooper may not be able to take a Jedi, but they're going to have an array of blasters and grenades that'll put them one up against crowds or against vehicles.

Pardon me but what is KOTOR and EU?

[Chuckg]

KOTOR -- Knights of the Old Republic, the Lucasfilm-sanctioned Xbox/PC game set in the distant past of the SW universe. (Specifically, 40 years after the fall of Exar Kun.)

EU -- Expanded Universe, aka the tie-in novels and video games.

Plug: KOTOR is the shiznit, with a storyline and characterization better than most SW *movies*. KOTOR II is decidedly less so, sadly.

[BlackSword]

Pardon me but what is KOTOR and EU?
KOTOR = Knights of the Old Republic : There were two computer games that came out in the past few years under the title. They were both well done and told during the Madalorian Wars era and the Rise of the Sith. Didn't play the first. I played the sequal and it deals with rebuilding the Republic that is on death's door and the main character is the 'last' of the jedi.

EU = Expanded Univrese: This is the shelf of books at Barnes and Nobles with Star Wars in the title. (also includes all games and comics). Varying degrees of writer ability. There is some editorial policy on the whole, but I personally think its similar to Forgotten Realms, at the beginning when it was small it was good, then they flooded the market.

[Zeropoint]

Bah. All you need to take down a Jedi is a shotgun. Make it a flechette cannon if you want to sound sci-fi.

[austenandrews]

Let me know how that works out for you. :p

[Greg]

I don't get the idea that there are bullets in the Star Wars universe. Even Bowcasters (Wookie crossbows) shoot energy. I suppose a horde of Ewoks could chuck slingbolts at Jedi though the Jedi could probably just hold his hand up and they'd probably all stop in mid-air. I'd probably rule they could stop a bullet though because otherwise all Bounty Hunters would be sporting six-shooters.

No idea if Jedi get hand-to-hand training, but KOTOR2 give them all sorts of non-weapon fighting ability. I'd just leave it as an option to the player though they're probably going to be faster on foot then a normal commando.

And I told myself I wouldn't debate this kind of stuff.

[Manic Typist]

See, I bet solid slug weapons would be mostly unheard of except on the most backwards of planets because of their inherent limitations: weight restirctions, lower ammo counts, ability to misfire, noise, etc.

Most places, laser weapons could be made with relatively little cost.

So, it would be unusual for someone to come after a Jedi with a solid slug weapon. But I think that is part of their weakness. They are built to defeat only ONE type of situation: the universe that they are used to. They really aren't as adaptable as they are made out to be.

And I think a good commando could move nearly as fast as a Jedi, and hit a whole lot harder and a whole lot smarter.

[Brother Jim]

years ago i played in an Alternity game that was a "universes colliding" type of game. several players had characters native to the star drive setting for alternity, several had jedi and i had a cybertronic chasseur from mutant chronicles/warzone. the bad guys were usually dark jedi...


dark jedi don't do too well against a gatling gun being used by someone with a really high heavy weapons skill :eek:

at least they didn't in that setting, using those rules. an AP cap would probably prevent a gatling gun from being legal, but then most assault rifles are also "out of bounds".

[austenandrews]

Typist, are you forgetting the part in Attack of the Clones where a saberless Obi-Wan dukes it out with ubercommando Jango Fett, while the latter is wearing armor? How about the scene in Revenge of the Sith where Obi-Wan flings General Grievous against the wall with a wave of his hand? Your hypothesis is cute and all, but it just don't bear out.

[Manic Typist]

Typist, are you forgetting the part in Attack of the Clones where a saberless Obi-Wan dukes it out with ubercommando Jango Fett, while the latter is wearing armor? How about the scene in Revenge of the Sith where Obi-Wan flings General Grievous against the wall with a wave of his hand? Your hypothesis is cute and all, but it just don't bear out.

Um, I don't remember the first part, so maybe I should rewatch.

And the second one? It barely phased General Grievous, Grievous was a complete wimp, and it was used at a more medium range.

My "cute" theory has Jedi being made into gimps by commandos once within arm reach.

Because the all light Jedi powers are USELESS at close range.

[LordGhee]

one of the champion group here in town did a Jedi game.

150 pts and light sabre 2 d6 kill penatrating.

3 picked to be jedi, 3 picked the fighter jock, the engineer, con man.

played a few games and they had a great time and no one felt that the Jedi dominated the game. jedi powers where what the players felt them to be with frameworks, some of the orther players had psionics, devices (powers0 ect.

anther example of man this system works.

[massey]

Jedi can leap 40' into the air. Good luck getting into hand to hand.
Jedi can control minds. "I'm not the one you're looking for."
Jedi can see the future. Good luck ambushing them.

Commandos are basically stormtroopers in camoflage.

[Corver]

The only reason you only see jedi in close combat with other jedi is because other jedi are the only ones who can get close enough. Blaster fire is obviously no threat to a jedi. As for who would win, Jedi or Commando? A jedi is usually discovered as a child and then spends the REST OF HIS/HER LIFE training. No four year stint in the military is going to prepare you to go hand to hand with a Shau Lin monk. Jedi are raised from early childhood to be masters of themselves, the force, and close combat.

[El Tripon]

[QUOTE=LordGhee]

one of the champion group here in town did a Jedi game.

150 pts and light sabre 2 d6 kill penatrating.

QUOTE]

I was a player in this game. It's currently on Hiatus as a backup game when the others stall.

Each Jedi chose a different route to achieve our "Jediness." We had one using a multi-power base, another chose an elemental control base and I chose a 45 point VPP with a 0-phase power change. My GM trusted me to not abuse this pool and I have not.

I was quickly established as the Master Jedi with the other two as Jedi. I didn't really out point them, I was more versitile.

We found we could do what has been seen in the movies with 150 pt characters.

Good luck on your campaign when it gets started.

[El Tripon]

Arrgh. I never can get those stupid grey quote boxes to work right.

[Nolgroth]

Arrgh. I never can get those stupid grey quote boxes to work right.

Just make sure that the opening QUOTE statement is surrounded by brackets and the end /QUOTE is also surrounded by brackets. Bracket = []

[Nolgroth]

I know I'm inviting myself to get flammed hard but...

In my OPINION... which I think I have come to reasonbly........ based off of MOVIE Jedi (it's been a while since I've read ANY Jedi literature)....

I think a well-trained commando could rip a Jedi to pieces. Once he got within arm's reach.

Thoughts?

Flamed? Naw. In Revenge of the Sith the Jedi got taken down like a bunch of crippled kindergarteners facing a regiment of tanks. How could you come to any conclusion but the one you did?

Of course, I remember the first trilogy that stated how good and just the Jedi were and how they were the peacekeepers and all that. Then the prequels come out and I find out that the Jedi are nothing more or less than the Secret Police of the Republic. Made me root for the Sith, who were at least not a bunch of emotionally repressed super agents.

Now, to be fair, I thought that the Jedi in RotS got sold way to cheaply. Case in point, the conehead guy was just reflecting about half a billion blaster bolts from the droid soldiers. He turns around and the clone troopers' Suppress vs. Jedi Reflexes power must have kicked in, because he was suddenly able to block only four or five of their blaster bolts before being dropped.

Then you have the speeder bike Jedi. Didn't he sense anything with his Jedi powers. I mean, up to now, the Jedi were reknowned for their psychic sensitivity. So what happened there. Or for that matter, how come the blue chick didn't even get a chance to get a shocked look. And then there was the fighter pilot Jedi, who also was suffering from the Suppress power.

I don't even want to think about the Jedi who attempted to arrest Palpatation. Two of them had the obviously useful Stand There and Get Skewered power, while one had the I'm As Slow As Molasses in January power. I know that they wanted to show how big and bad Palpatation was, but it came off as "Ayup, we're Jedi and we move as if we were coated in Mrs. Butterworth's extra thick syrup."

So, with all these examples of how the so-called powerful Jedi were wiped out without too much effort on the wipers, who can blame your observation and opinion. In my opinion, any half-talented director could have made the prequels so well that nobody could say "The Jedi could be beaten by a commando." Instead, they would say, "Man, it sucks that Palpatation was so powerful, because those Jedi rocked. Could you imagine what one of them could do to a bunch of stormtroopers!?!"

And then there is the stilted morality of the Star Wars universe, but let's not beat that poor corpse.

[Kyle A.]

Um, I don't remember the first part, so maybe I should rewatch.

And the second one? It barely phased General Grievous, Grievous was a complete wimp, and it was used at a more medium range.

My "cute" theory has Jedi being made into gimps by commandos once within arm reach.

Because the all light Jedi powers are USELESS at close range.

I think it pretty safe to assume that Jedi are capable fighters with or with out their lightsabers no matter what the range. In revenge of the sith Obi-Wan loses his lightsaber in the battle against Grievous he picks up and uses a blaster quiet competently. Leading me to believe that the Jedi council realised that their would be times were a jedi might not have their lightsaber and trainned them for that event.
[Geek Level Star Wars Talk]
I would point out that there is no such thing as a light Jedi power or a Dark Jedi power, its all in how its used. Darth Vader chokes people to death with the same power Lukes uses to pull his lightsaber to him or Yoda uses to lift an X-Wing. It wouldn't have surprised me to see Obi-Wan or Yoda use Force Lightning against non living things, say a door control on the other side of the room or a pack of assassin droids. Of course some powers are easier to use for good and some for evil.

And as for the slug throwers versus a lightsaber? A lightsaber blade can cut through AT-AT armor or melt its way through an armored door. A bullet doesn't stand a chance.
[/Geek Level Star Wars Talk]

[SuperKlaus]

I would point out that there is no such thing as a light Jedi power or a Dark Jedi power, its all in how its used. Darth Vader chokes people to death with the same power Lukes uses to pull his lightsaber to him or Yoda uses to lift an X-Wing.

That is to say Telekinesis (50 STR), BOECV, used with a Grab maneuver or just for pulling, eh?



And as for the slug throwers versus a lightsaber? A lightsaber blade can cut through AT-AT armor or melt its way through an armored door. A bullet doesn't stand a chance.

The problem there is that the lightsaber isn't so intensely hot as to destroy the bullet instantaneously. An attempt to block a slug with a saber might just mean that the Jedi now has a heated chunk of metal flying at him. I'm not saying Jedi could be beaten by slugs what with their ability to pull a Neo and say no to the bullets, but I don't think their lightsabers are the answer.

Anyway, I want to join in giving you kudos for your idea, Greg. I had the very same thought when I considered doing Star Wars HERO. Please let us all know how well paying CP for gear works out.

[MisterBaldy]

I like a lot of the things that you are all discussing here.

It's not a bad idea to place the characters at the "superheroic" category, but that also does not mean that you have to start them out at 350 points (200pts + 150 Pts in Disadvantages), and still have the game be considered "superheroic"...now does it?

If you are intent on the 350 point total, you can still do a few things to "balance the tables", as it is...

Utilize the Character Ability Guidelines Table (in Fifth Edition, Revised - Page 28)...and enforce Low-Powered Classification (or at the very most Standard Classification).
Utilize the Optional Character Design Guidelines (in Fifth Edition, Revised - Page 29), and "structure the characters" based on their character type (i.e. Jedi Characters are Power-Oriented, Smuggler/Rogue Characters are Skill-Oriented, etc. No Character Type should be Characteristic-Oriented).
Enforce Normal Human Maximas for Characteristics (There's nothing worse than a 50 STR, 26 DEX and 25 CON Bounty Hunter).I am beginning work myself on a STAR WARS Campaign, converting over the key points for STAR WARS d20 to the HERO SYSTEM. I've come to many of the same conclusions that many of you have...

For STAR WARS...Superheroic is definitely the way to go. It gives you the most flexibility, and keeps true to the genre. The major stumbling block though is Equipment. In a Superheroic Campaign...players pay points for everything.

The solution...All characters are required to have a Variable Power Pool, defined as a "Gadget Pool". This allows the players freedom to change their equipment, but only in a certain location. Create standardized equipment (i.e. Blasters, Jet-packs, Lightsabers, etc.), have the players define what is in their "stash" (as per your VPP/Gadget Pool guidelines, based on character type), and if they want to add new equipment to the "stash", role play it out (make them go shopping, to the Jedi Temple, etc.).

Well, there's my "two cents".

The Force Will Be With You...Always!!!

[Manic Typist]

Jedi can leap 40' into the air. Good luck getting into hand to hand.
Jedi can control minds. "I'm not the one you're looking for."
Jedi can see the future. Good luck ambushing them.

Commandos are basically stormtroopers in camoflage.

Yes, but if there's no where to land, they still come back down. And, well, the Jedi just gave up any objective that they have. Because a commando won't feel the need to chase down the Jedi just to prove something. He has a MISSION to accomplish.

Actually, no they can't. They can influence minds. A little. Only weak ones. Commandos are highly trained, highly disciplined, highly motivated, very smart individuals. "Um, I just crawled through 2 miles of sewers, crept past three security teams, retrieved my stashed gear from the bottom of a ravine, all just so I could be here now. I'm pretty sure you ARE the one I am looking for. Oh, and thanks for standing so close to me. Made my job that much easier. *crunch*"

And, actually, their presentience only applies to either A) incoming projectiles aimed specifically at them (they can sense the "intent" of the sniper basically) and B) really hazy notions of maybe futures that offer no practical benefit against a commando breaking your knees backwards, snapping your wrist, and then crushing your esophogus with the side of his hand.

I seriously think only a Dark Jedi could reasonably hold their own. Dark Jedi would probably smoke a commando.

Force Lighting works at close range. Hehehe.

[Nolgroth]

Okay, all *****ing about the prequels aside, let's really look at the whole Jedi vs. Commando argument.

First off a Jedi with a lightsabre beats four aces, but the sniper on the rooftop beats the Jedi. So let's look at the close up combat sans lightsaber and sans sniper scenario.

The Commando:
- Is highly trained and disciplined, both physically and mentally.
- Generally carries more weapons than just a gun. He usually has a knife of some sort and grenades.
- Is not bound by some stilted and unrealistic moral expectation or code.

The Jedi:
- Is highly trained and disciplined, both physically and mentally.
- Has Force powers that include the ability to jump, telekinetically manipulate objects and people, and (apparently unreliable) the ability to sense danger.
- Is bound by a stilted moral code that prevents him from feeling and expressing perfectly natural emotions.

Okay, I have to say that it is an even fight. If the Commando gets surprise, which is problematic and depends on which movie you're watching, he almost has the battle won hands down. A quick knife spot to a vital area and down goes the Jedi. If the Commando doesn't get surprise, the battle becomes a lot more interesting.

Even though the Jedi code prevents them from feeling anger, it apparently does not prevent them from killing en masse. Though to be fair, the droid army would hardly provide a moral quandry. I just don't see the Jedi having any problems with killing a soldier. So that equation is removed. On the other hand, the Jedi Mind Trick isn't going to work on the Commando. You never even see Obi-Wan try it on Jango, because he knows better. A run of the mill stormtrooper does not a commando make.

So, in the non-surprise scenario, it is Jedi training vs. Commando training. Hmmm. I have to give this one to the Jedi. In the absence of the primary weapon for each (gun or lightsaber), the Jedi would be much faster and that would be the deciding factor. Sure, the Commando has an edge over just about any non-Jedi. He is trained, conditioned and focused. Against the Jedi reflexes and ability to do one hell of a drop kick, he's going down. Maybe not easily, but he is going down. Couple that with the Jedi telekinesis ability and he just doesn't stand a chance. The Jedi doesn't even have to push or pull him. All he has to do is restrain him and the battle is over. Jedi wins. Doesn't even violate the stilted moral code.

Now, a face to face battle is not where Commando type units excel. It is subterfuge, ambush and using superior tactics. This is where the Jedi runs into problems. You see the Jedi in the prequels are arrogant. They depend on their superior mystical abilities. Heck, even Luke Skywalker does this in Return of the Jedi, when he walks into both Jabba's palace and Lord Vader's clutches. He is so confident in the Force that he forgets that he is mortal. This is where the Commando unit can use his training to the fullest. Ambushes, booby traps and coordinated attacks from superior tactical position and the Jedi is toast.

[Greg]

As another possibility, you could use the resource points as suggested from Dark Champions.

I started reading the section right before work this morning. First reaction is that it looks good, but I haven't gotten a chance to full delve into it.

re: commandos and what not...
I think it's tough to compare the two since the movies focus on the legendary Fett bounty hunters, last of the Mandalorians, and basically the top rung of Jedi. I think in that scenario it's going to be 10-to-1 for the Jedi in straight hand-to-hand. In a situation where the two are hunting each other in a Kashyyyk jungle I'll give it to the commando who has the superior arsenal. In a random smackdown two top tiers might be a closer to 50-50 if the soldier can use some sort of entangle followed by a grenade. The jedi may be able to swat soldier and grenade away in time though so who knows.

Back towards force ideas, I was planning on a Jedi Push to be a telekinesis throw and Choke would be telekinesis with a grab/squeeze. Nothing too fancy, but both utilizing existing rules. I tossed around making it BOECV, but that makes it way too expensive to ever be able to lift an X-Wing out of a swamp. +3/4 (+1 BOECV, -1/4 standard defenses can be used) seems a little too pricey for what seems like should be default for telekinesis.

[BlackSword]

Whie this discussion is a bit silly as there is no way to test the hypothesis, my 2 cents:

From the games and the various shows, I don't think hand-to-hand is the way to face a jedi. You want to give jedi room and hit them with overwhelming firepower. Its not canon, but in the cartoon, Mace against the droids pretty much shows the devasting effect of force enhanced strength.

The light sabers are pretty much instant kill, so its best to stay away from them. Jedi are trained how to use them and how to fight close-in. The biggest problem for jedi is closing into close range (though they do have force leaps and force running to help).

I do think that a team of commandos could wipe out a jedi or two out. Jedi are not all powerful.

[ApocalypseZero]

Well, first off I must say BAD GREG! You can't scowl like that at the company that got me into RPG's. (Palladium) Thankfully for those here, I'm not as rabid, nor as narrow sighted, as those that haunt the Pally Forums. (Oh do I try to show them sense, but they are blind.)

Next, as for Star Wars, I think Greg and I are on the same page, but may have a different vision on things. Couple that with my brother's love for the Dark Side (I'll admit I do to), and this kills off the D20/D6 games because they are geared to be Anti-Dark Side for Players. Of course, a Dark Side game does have an almost easier time to run. (How hard is it to hunt down Jedi?)

My point for our game is to not lose the things that make Star Wars what it is. I've done several games of D20 SW (mostly as GM). I think they have a good game, but when it comes to the Force, it seems a bit skewed. So, let me highlight what I am looking for using HERO.

Force Powers. I don't want to see a Magic Spell Listing of powers, but there are very specific things that can be done with the force. I know Greg mentioned a VPP because of me, but I am happy with Multipowers if a 'list' of Force powers were to be made. And after getting into Champions, I am seeing alot of similarity in Telekinesis Powers and the Force, but this would not be all of them granted. But I was thinking a general listing of powers would include: Push/Pull, Choke/Grip, Lightning, Speed, Aura/Armor, Mind Trick/Control, Light Healing (no super heals or resurrections until much later), Defense/Attack Focus Enhancer, Force Drain, Life Leech, Saber Throw, etc. Mostly an adaptation of KotOR powers but also maybe a few powers not 'computer game friendly' from the movies or other sources (can't think of anything specific now).

Jedi. The Heroes of the Universe in any period. These guys in movies/games seem to be the unstoppable. On paper, it's a different story. But part of the feel I want to portray is that starting Jedi won't be greese by Blaster Monkey #247's stray shot that happened to be in his general vicinity. I also want the ability for non-Jedi to be Force Sensitive and mean something more than, 'I CAN become a Jedi, if I want'. I'm thinking a Multipower sort of deal right now with Force Sensitive being equal to Danger Sense, Combat Luck, and the ability to 'buy/use' Force Powers. It's amazing what one can do once they learn a system. (It only took me 2 months and help to get past all the clunky examples.) Rant: EB 8D6 (8x(5pts per D6)=40 doesn't look right. Simply says 5 pts per D6 is a bit less misleading. /End Rant.

Races/Aliens. No Star Wars universe is complete without them. Unfortunately, HERO lends itself to packages, which will cut pts off aliens. This was my biggest point after the Force powers where I was getting sketchy. Maxima seems the easiest way to pull it off, but a starting +Characterstic would seem more beneficial. And even a modification of Characteristics Costs could be possible (Twi'lek DEX Cost x2 for example) to show a races' natural strenghts. But then, Wookies would be god awful. But now that I think of it, most Wookies should be STR 15+, and 15 being the weak ones. I think this would work well making STR Cost x2 naturally as well. (Limits the Humans) See what happens when I have nothing to do at work?

My Last Point, the 'Sides' of the Force. D20/D6 seem to be built on players always being Light Side or neutral at worst. After KotOR and the movies, I think that there should be Pros & Cons for each force side, but to do so, must also keep within the Points Limitation for Characters. Light siders should see a Bonus to EGO and PRE and perhaps COM. Light side seems to enhance the mental more than physical. Dark side seems to bonus STR, CON, and Combat, with maybe a negative to COM. Neutral would be the mid ground. This also leaves Neutral with little 'extra' to it. Perhaps Neutral should see Force Powers used at their normal cost, where Light/Dark would have a +5 END cost to powers unless used to Help/Hurt others? I may be on to something here.

I'll leave this for you all to discuss, while I ponder, work up, rework, and finally scrap the whole project. Because as much as I love Star Wars, only one other player in our group seems to care for it.

[ApocalypseZero]

Well, I feel the need to defend myself from Greg's hurtful words. I wouldn't be playing RPG's if it wasn't for Palladium Books and their Robotech and Rifts games. You sting me with your words, but I will not cry. :)

But for Star Wars, I have 4 key issues that I think needs to be preseved.
1.) Force Powers
2.) Jedi/Non-Jedi
3.) Races/Aliens
4.) The 'Sides' of the Force

Force Powers, I think could be done in either a VPP or a Multipower, if the conditions are possible. Most would naturally be Telekinetic Based, but some could fall outside of this. Mind Trick/Control, Healing Trance/Meditation, and Lightning to name a few. I think with an appropriate listing of powers, most of those being from KotOR II or the Movies, that this could be overcome.

Jedi/Non-Jedi are just one of those things that the movies inspire, the games tone down, but we all love. A Jedi shouldn't be a victim to a stray blaster shot from Gun Bunny #5, but he shouldn't be looking at an army of Droid with sigh or relief. A Jedi needs to have a scare put in him. I also believe that Jedi Classes, along with Non-Jedi Classes, would be an idea for simplicity (since man knows labels too easily). I think the KotOR classes of Guardian (Fighter), Sentinel (Investigator), and Consular (Mage/Witch/Diplomat) would serve great for Packages. I also think Force Sensitive should mean something more than extra dice or bonuses and the ability to 'Be A Jedi' for those who don't want to be. Maybe a Multipower of Danger Sense, Combat Luck, and the ability to 'buy/use' Force Powers.

Races/Aliens. I think the number of unique aliens make Star Wars what it is, but with the HERO packages, seem to limit anyone who wants to be non-human. Here is where I think that Maxima should be capped at 20 for all stats, but a modification of the Charataristic Cost be made. Make STR x2 naturally, but maybe for Wookies be x.5 or x1 to show their strength, and Twi'leks having DEX Cost x2 instead of x3. Of course, other Characteristics would change as well, this is just a starter.

Sides of the Force. I don't like how D20/D6 force players to be Light side or Neutral at worst. There should be movement in the Force nature. I also think the nature a character has should be evident. Light siders seem to be more mental focused, so a PRE and/or EGO boost is appropriate, along with COM. Dark Siders are stronger, so a STR, CON, or Combat skill bonus is in order, but also should see a negative in COM or Body for their corruption (more so in COM). Neutral I can't really think of anything except maybe a Force Power bonus, using powers at normal END, where Light/Dark siders have a +5 END to powers unless used to Help/Harm others directly.

What do you think?

[austenandrews]

The problem there is that the lightsaber isn't so intensely hot as to destroy the bullet instantaneously. An attempt to block a slug with a saber might just mean that the Jedi now has a heated chunk of metal flying at him. I'm not saying Jedi could be beaten by slugs what with their ability to pull a Neo and say no to the bullets, but I don't think their lightsabers are the answer.
A lightsaber is essentially a laser blast in blade form. I don't have any trouble believing a blaster shot could knock a bullet off its trajectory. Why would a lightsaber be any different?

[Nolgroth]

This is not my work, just something I came across during my many ventures throughout the web. I wish the link was still active, but it was dead so long that I don't even remember the URL. If somebody out there does know where I can link to, I'd rather do that, so that the remainder of the authors impressive body of information could be referenced.

Anyhow, this is a pretty good description of how a lightsaber could work. I'm no physics expert, but it seems reasonable to me.


MODEL SIX: virtual light produced from a spinning field surface
The idea & physics behind this model supplied by the incredible Mr. Albert Forge.

This model is similar to model five, but is FAR more solidly based in REAL physics, and is a FAR better match for the observed sabre (and blaster) behaviors! It provides a theoretical answer to ''where does the 'stuff' of the blade come from'' *AND* actually NEEDS both a field AND rotation!

According to astrophysicist Yakov Borisovich Zel'dovich, a rapidly spinning conductor will cause the creation of virtual particle radiation at its surface. Particle production is controlled by the charge, angular velocity (of rotation) and radius of this charged conductor.

If we imagine a rod shaped charged field of atomic-scale cross-section, which is super-conducting and rotating at near-lightspeed, then charge regulation becomes the control for the particle emission type and quantity. Such charged fields would tend to repel one-another (if they are of like polarity), which means the blades would BLOCK one another.

NOTE: a sabre would have to be built carefully and tuned correctly! A badly adjusted sabre would subject its user (and everyone in range) to considerable amounts of gamma radiation!

The glow of the sabre blade consists of virtual-photons energized by the rotating field into real photons ...virtual light made real! The opaque 'thumb-thick' blade shape may be a swirl of ionized atmospheric particles (the AIR) drawn in and swirling about the core. When you IONISE a gas, you actually have a PLASMA (as it is meant by terrestrial physics) ... and this would glow JUST LIKE A FLUORESCENT TUBE (which is ALSO a plasma!). BUT this thumb-thick plasma zone is merely a by-product. The REAL cutting is performed by the minuscule core of the true blade, leaving almost microscopically thin cuts. (The blade would STILL glow fiercely in even in a vacuum, as it throws off 'virtual photons - made real' -- but the thumb-thick core may not be visible.)

Such a tight, rapidly spinning charged super-conducting field would rend (tear) through most matter by stripping off electrons, which bind atoms together. The ionized matter about the 'cut', as well as field-excited atomic movement in the localized area of the 'cut', would mimic great point-of-contact heat. A wound to a soft-tissue organic being would appear to be a microscopically thin BURN - and such a wound would usually tend to be cauterized (depending on how slowly the blade passed through - a large blood vessel cut too quickly may not be sufficiently 'burned' to cauterize).

Dense metals which have loosely bound electrons (which are free to wander about their lattice structure) would be more resistant to cutting. The 'atom stripping' effect would take a little longer to cut through, because such materials have more electrons 'to spare' before their lattice structure becomes "torn." Metals are also more highly conductive, and the localized 'heat' effects are minimized because the heat is carried away and dispersed through the material more quickly.

This means that even though with varying amounts of effort, a lightsabre could cut through virtually anything, some materials would offer more resistance to a sabre blade, and therefore we can now understand how Lord Vader's armor was able to ward off most of Luke's glancing blow, saving his life. Lord Vader's life is spared despite this glancing blow to the shoulder by Luke Skywalker because the dense metallic armor he wears is more resistant to the 'atom sheering' effect of a lightsabre blade. Luke just didn't hit HARD enough to get all the way through!

Mr. Albert Forge has gone further, and has postulated a mechanism for the generation of the spinning field which creates the blade described above. Imagine a tiny sphere of unknown composition (perhaps some of the 'hypermatter' referred to in the SWICS & SWVD books by LFL's Dr Reynolds). Rapidly spin this into a disk by the effect of inducing fields (probably EM). The disk deformed and elongated into a tube, or rod (imagine the sleeve of a shirt being turned inside out) by an axially mounted and powerful electron gun (like the tube of your TV). Field extension/retraction would be controlled by altering the output of the electron gun (which incidentally also controlled the charge of the conducting field ... the spin rate is determined by the inducing EM fields that created the disk from the sphere in the first place).

'Focussing' in this case may then be the very-rapid application of 'tuning' precession forces upon the extended field in order to 'follow' the orientation of the hilt, as left to itself it would tend to gyroscopically resist orientation changes.

[NOTE: Mr. Forge would like to say that all the above, which having its roots in 'real' physics, is speculative, and must be taken with "several solar masses of sodium chloride" *grin* ... IMHO however, it is a VASTLY more consistent and believable model than any other. It just 'could' possibly work! *AND* it matches ALL the observed and ascribed conditions!]

ADVANTAGES OF MODEL SIX
+ it SPINS - matching my 'gyroscopic angular inertia' ideas (independently supported by the SWVD)
+ no 'plasma' or 'fuel' required other than raw power
+ the blade is PURE energy
+ the blade is opaque
+ there is a sensible 'focussing' (tuning) role for crystals which COULD see them able to adjust the color!
+ the blades would block one another AND blaster bolts!
+ it hums
+ it glows, even in a vacuum!
+ the cuts are microscopically thin
+ it cuts by 'shearing away' the electrons in the substance, leaving a locally 'induced' heat-like reaction; in other words, leaving burns & cauterized wounds! Dense metallic surfaces with many stray electrons in their matrix would provide higher resistance to the 'electron stripping' cutting action...thus Vader's armor stops the glancing blow from killing him!

A question from Mr. Doran Skalak about gravitic effects prompted me to ask an astrophysicist (Curtis Saxton) questions about high-speed rotations and relativistic effects: the following comments are my own attempts to explain what he told me, and I may have made any number of scientific errors.

In Model#6 there is a 'virtual' object ROTATING at the core of the blade, a forcefield of almost zero mass (I assume) which has a NON-MECAHNICAL induced spin applied at near lightspeed [c] to achieve the Zeldovich effect as described above.

Apparently, objects moving at near 'c' WILL undergo the mass-effects predicted by Einstein even if they have near zero mass, because the equations effect ENERGY, and mass is merely one form of energy. As a result, the spinning blade will NOT ONLY undergo gyroscopic resistance to changes in angular orientation (being waved around), but will ALSO suffer SOME DEGREE (unknown) of relativistic gravitic effects. In effect, the blade may acquire some 'virtual mass' - FROM the relative standpoint of the user.

Further, these effects will produce a form of 'event horizon' effect at the boundary (not incompatible with Zeldovich's 'virtual light' predictions I assume) which you would expect could account for the noise, the glow and the terrible destructive capabilities of the 'light' blade.

Sabres and Blasters related?

Now comes the REAL speculation! It was postulated in Model Three (Field contained plasmoids) that the Sabre beam may be related to the Blaster Bolt - as though the sabre were a 'static' gunshot, or more correctly, that the blaster bolt is a 'mobile sabre blade'. This is a fascinating idea, but it has a serious drawback ... there are instances in the films where damage is done BEFORE the visible part of the bolt arrives. The 'contained' model CANNOT explain this.

BUT the 'virtual light' model CAN. *IF* Blasters and sabres originate from the same principle technology, then blasters MAY be such 'spinning fields' which can exist for a time on their own, and can be projected along a vector (ie: fired!). Such a 'bolt' would indeed leave a TRAIL OF LIGHT in its wake! The 'damage' may well be done BEFORE the visible part of the bolt arrives!

Since a blaster is like a sabre, and since sabres block one-another, a sabre can block a blaster bolt! BUT this would be VERY VERY difficult to do because the sabre blade is so thin, and the blaster bolt so very fast!

A Turbolaser may be a rotating field of larger diameter. Perhaps such larger fields would retain their coherence for longer (after leaving the emitter) and thus have greater range. If the field integrity decays beyond a certain point, its rapid rotation may cause it to 'explode' beyond a certain distance from the emitter. This would explain the 'flak bursts' observed in the film when some shots miss their targets.

The asteroid hit by the Star Destroyer in TESB would first be 'drilled into' by the bolt, then exploded (vaporized in fact!) from within when the bolt's rotation collapsed - it would essentially have had its constituent atoms ripped apart from the inside out!

A possible VIRTUAL-LIGHT MODEL history of the lightsabre

Imagine the following: "Many many years ago, it was discovered that a powerful 'plasmoid-like' substance could be generated and held in place by a spinning field. A deadly blade of light was made which could 'chew' it way through almost any substance, leaving a very thin cut with signs of a burn. The very nature of the field meant that one field was thoroughly opaque to another. These blades could block one another, and the best defense against a blade, was another blade. The LIGHTSABRE was born. A powerful and noble weapon, it gave the advantage in hand-to-hand troops who (with high-density armor and perhaps even personal repulsor shields) were impervious to primitive slug-throwing weapons.

Much later, advances in the science of field technology allowed for a spinning 'virtual-light-generating' field to be DETACHED from its generator and flung out for quite some distance before it finally dissipated. The BLASTER was born! Only the most supremely skilled sabre-user could take advantage of the fact that a sabre could deflect a blaster bolt. The Jedi became the most prominent users of the lightsabre.

Later still, someone realized that if you fired a spinning field with a different set of settings (such that it didn't generate the deadly virtual light), you could still paralyze most sentients from the field charge alone. It was like firing a 'blank'. The STUN BOLT was born.

Military technicians discovered that the life (RANGE) and capacity (POWER) of the blaster bolt could be improved by enhancing the spin somehow - they applied a sort of 'turbo-charger' to the field. The TURBOLASER was born.

[Manic Typist]

Okay, I have to say that it is an even fight. If the Commando gets surprise, which is problematic and depends on which movie you're watching, he almost has the battle won hands down. A quick knife spot to a vital area and down goes the Jedi. If the Commando doesn't get surprise, the battle becomes a lot more interesting.

Even though the Jedi code prevents them from feeling anger, it apparently does not prevent them from killing en masse. Though to be fair, the droid army would hardly provide a moral quandry. I just don't see the Jedi having any problems with killing a soldier. So that equation is removed. On the other hand, the Jedi Mind Trick isn't going to work on the Commando. You never even see Obi-Wan try it on Jango, because he knows better. A run of the mill stormtrooper does not a commando make.

So, in the non-surprise scenario, it is Jedi training vs. Commando training. Hmmm. I have to give this one to the Jedi. In the absence of the primary weapon for each (gun or lightsaber), the Jedi would be much faster and that would be the deciding factor. Sure, the Commando has an edge over just about any non-Jedi. He is trained, conditioned and focused. Against the Jedi reflexes and ability to do one hell of a drop kick, he's going down. Maybe not easily, but he is going down. Couple that with the Jedi telekinesis ability and he just doesn't stand a chance. The Jedi doesn't even have to push or pull him. All he has to do is restrain him and the battle is over. Jedi wins. Doesn't even violate the stilted moral code.

Now, a face to face battle is not where Commando type units excel. It is subterfuge, ambush and using superior tactics. This is where the Jedi runs into problems. You see the Jedi in the prequels are arrogant. They depend on their superior mystical abilities. Heck, even Luke Skywalker does this in Return of the Jedi, when he walks into both Jabba's palace and Lord Vader's clutches. He is so confident in the Force that he forgets that he is mortal. This is where the Commando unit can use his training to the fullest. Ambushes, booby traps and coordinated attacks from superior tactical position and the Jedi is toast.

Nolgroth, I'm glad someone has finally taken the time to analyze this seriously.

First, I would contest that the Jedi are hypocritical for their callous killing of droids, because by Episode III many of the droids are self-aware and therefore "alive."

I completely agree on the point about the mind tricks.

A Jedi MAY be faster, but, I do not think (unless they were highly skilled in the use of the Force) that they would be able to maintain this advantage in the face of A) The fact that the average commando will have more sheer muscle power and B) the fact that once the commando gets a physical hold on the Jedi, they can't go ANYWHERE. Speed is negated. Leaving brawn. Also, the Jedi telekinesis would be of no use at close range. Because, all Jedi that I can remember seeing have relied upon gestures to help them focus and use their telekinesis. If a Jedi starts waving his hand towards the commando, once they are within arms' reach, the commando is just gonna grab his hand and snap it into a very unnatural angle.

Yes, they are extremely arrogant. Their biggest weakness.


-Greg:

I would give the Jedi 10:1 odds AGAINST them in hand-to-hand.

Why?

Because Jedi (to what I have seen from the movies ONLY, mind you) have NO hand-to-hand training.

That's right! The only close combat training they have is completely dependent upon: A) Having their saber or B) GETTING their saber.

They don't know how to punch, kick, block, break wrists, ANYTHING.

A commando does.

A lightsaber is completely useless once a commando is within arms' reach, because, like any sword, the cutting edge cannot be brought to bear. All the commando has to do is keep striking at those arms and pushing them to the side, and follow it up with strikes to critical organs etc while the Jedi's guard is opened.

[Nolgroth]

Because Jedi (to what I have seen from the movies ONLY, mind you) have NO hand-to-hand training.

That's right! The only close combat training they have is completely dependent upon: A) Having their saber or B) GETTING their saber.

They don't know how to punch, kick, block, break wrists, ANYTHING.

A commando does.

A lightsaber is completely useless once a commando is within arms' reach, because, like any sword, the cutting edge cannot be brought to bear. All the commando has to do is keep striking at those arms and pushing them to the side, and follow it up with strikes to critical organs etc while the Jedi's guard is opened.
Actually, both Obi-Wan and Anakin show some unarmed skill, though in this category, Obi-wan seems to have more prowess. In Attack of the Clones, Obo-Wan clearly demonstrates some maneuvers, including a flying kick remniscient of Tae Kwon Do and fights Jango Fett unarmed through most of a close quarters combat. I would call the fight a draw, as Jango hopped into Slave-1 and flew off. In Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan again shows that he has some training when he (foolishly) tries to kick out General Greivous' leg. The technique and form are there.

I have to disagree with your supposition about lightsabers based on two observed details from the movies. The first is that lightsabers slice through flesh like warm butter. It wouldn't take a great deal of physical exertion to do the same to the commando. Then there is the style used by both Obi-Wan and Anakin during their big duel in which both Jedi used quick, close in maneuvers.


Also, the Jedi telekinesis would be of no use at close range. Because, all Jedi that I can remember seeing have relied upon gestures to help them focus and use their telekinesis. If a Jedi starts waving his hand towards the commando, once they are within arms' reach, the commando is just gonna grab his hand and snap it into a very unnatural angle.
Luke Skywalker was able to lift C3PO while having both hands bound. Now I will admit that he appeared to have to concentrate a little harder, so this may not be an appropriate defense in a hand to hand combat situation. (EDIT) Once again, in Revenge of the Sith, both Obi-Wan and Anakin used "gestures" that appeared to be a short open palmed strike. If that is all they need to send the Commando flying, then that also negates the assumption that a Jedi is incapable of hand to hand combat without his saber.

Still, I have to give the hand to hand to Jedi and I fear we may have to settle on an agree to disagree situation. On the other hand, while trained in close quarters combat, it's not the Commando's specialty. Ambush, deception, traps and surprise are. If the Commando has the time to plan a proper tactical battle, his training wins over Jedi arrogance.

[austenandrews]

Typist, I suggest you go back and watch the movies again. Of course you won't see Jedi doing Steven Seagal moves, because they're not that kind of movie. But it is never implied that combat-trained Jedi are anything less than competant at fisticuffs.

[Manic Typist]

Actually, both Obi-Wan and Anakin show some unarmed skill, though in this category, Obi-wan seems to have more prowess. In Attack of the Clones, Obo-Wan clearly demonstrates some maneuvers, including a flying kick remniscient of Tae Kwon Do and fights Jango Fett unarmed through most of a close quarters combat. I would call the fight a draw, as Jango hopped into Slave-1 and flew off. In Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan again shows that he has some training when he (foolishly) tries to kick out General Greivous' leg. The technique and form are there.

I have to disagree with your supposition about lightsabers based on two observed details from the movies. The first is that lightsabers slice through flesh like warm butter. It wouldn't take a great deal of physical exertion to do the same to the commando. Then there is the style used by both Obi-Wan and Anakin during their big duel in which both Jedi used quick, close in maneuvers.


Luke Skywalker was able to lift C3PO while having both hands bound. Now I will admit that he appeared to have to concentrate a little harder, so this may not be an appropriate defense in a hand to hand combat situation. (EDIT) Once again, in Revenge of the Sith, both Obi-Wan and Anakin used "gestures" that appeared to be a short open palmed strike. If that is all they need to send the Commando flying, then that also negates the assumption that a Jedi is incapable of hand to hand combat without his saber.

Still, I have to give the hand to hand to Jedi and I fear we may have to settle on an agree to disagree situation. On the other hand, while trained in close quarters combat, it's not the Commando's specialty. Ambush, deception, traps and surprise are. If the Commando has the time to plan a proper tactical battle, his training wins over Jedi arrogance.


Well, a few basic attempts do not constitute training.

Open palm strikes can be deflected, by turning them to the side.

However, since two people claim that they demonstrate more martial skill than I can recall, I will do as suggested and review the movies once more, specifically looking for instances of Jedi actually using their BODIES as weapons, sans lightsabers.

If I find I was incorrect, I will retract some of my statements.

I still say a commando fights smarter, and therefore could win. But it would have to be on conditions that they established. Fortunately, commandos are VERY good at doing that, while Jedi are not. :nonp:

[Greg]

Depending on what era you're talking about a commando may very well be force sensitive and could become a Jedi...or maybe that'd cause the SW universe to implode.

[Inu]

Because Jedi (to what I have seen from the movies ONLY, mind you) have NO hand-to-hand training.

That's right! The only close combat training they have is completely dependent upon: A) Having their saber or B) GETTING their saber.
Yes! Because we never saw it in the films, that means it didn't exist!

The characters also do not need to eat... well, Anakin does, but Obi-Wan apparently doesn't. Nor do any of them excrete any substance.

Therefore, all SW characters should buy 'need not eat'. And possibly reduced sleeping, because how often did we see that happen?

Seriously, if you have the choice between 'lightsabre' and 'punch', 9 out of 10 Jedi choose 'lightsabre'. It's a better choice. In the duels, we see them throwing punches and the like as secondary attacks. Often, force-enhanced punches (see Darth Maul vs Obi-Wan). The jedi clearly have more training than just 'use the force' - I mean, they start using lightsabres at age, what, six? To assume that they get by purely on force knowledge is nonsensical.

With lightsabre, 99% chance, jedi wins. We saw a 12-14 year old jedi apprentice fight off a half-dozen commandos for several seconds, even deflecting bolts back against a few. Add on ten or more years of experience, and there you have your basic jedi.

Yes, a commando vs unarmed Jedi would be able to put up a fight. As much because of their armour as anything else. But they're goin' down. And if the Jedi has their lightsabre, I'd like to see the commando try to get in that close. :)

[massey]

Luke trains by balancing himself on one hand with a 50 pound sack of Yoda standing on his foot. I'd say that requires more arm strength than your average commando. I've met commandos--I went to college with an Army Ranger. He was in great shape, but he's no Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Of course, that's not even talking about Jedi Wookies.

[Manic Typist]

Yes! Because we never saw it in the films, that means it didn't exist!

The characters also do not need to eat... well, Anakin does, but Obi-Wan apparently doesn't. Nor do any of them excrete any substance.

Therefore, all SW characters should buy 'need not eat'. And possibly reduced sleeping, because how often did we see that happen?

Seriously, if you have the choice between 'lightsabre' and 'punch', 9 out of 10 Jedi choose 'lightsabre'. It's a better choice. In the duels, we see them throwing punches and the like as secondary attacks. Often, force-enhanced punches (see Darth Maul vs Obi-Wan). The jedi clearly have more training than just 'use the force' - I mean, they start using lightsabres at age, what, six? To assume that they get by purely on force knowledge is nonsensical.

With lightsabre, 99% chance, jedi wins. We saw a 12-14 year old jedi apprentice fight off a half-dozen commandos for several seconds, even deflecting bolts back against a few. Add on ten or more years of experience, and there you have your basic jedi.

Yes, a commando vs unarmed Jedi would be able to put up a fight. As much because of their armour as anything else. But they're goin' down. And if the Jedi has their lightsabre, I'd like to see the commando try to get in that close. :)

Um, wow, you sarcasm is cute, but since I stated that I was running strictly by movies........ at the very get go........ well, it's just completely nontopical.

Because, see, I'm sure in the books, there's plenty of reasons justifying why the Jedi in fact are NOT completely overrated.

Because, they are supposed to be well-rounded. They aren't. They arrogant. They are heavily trained in one area, not in another.

I never stated that if a commando faced a Jedi with a saber, starting at range, that they would win.

This is because a saber, though amazingly sexy, are completely cheap weapons. They are gankers. Whatever.

I only said that once within the saber reach, the commando would be in his turf.

My point is this: Jedi are not nearly as hardcore as they appear because: A) They rely too much upon the Force and B) They rely too much upon their lightsabers.

Two-trick ponies.

And Massey?

No. Luke's PT training, though admirable, and certainly more grueling than anything I could probably take, is nothing compared to what a truly elite commando goes through.

You raise a point. I have never seen a Jedi wookie. Why is that?

[massey]

Perhaps you should specify which type of commandos you're talking about. As I said, I know a few special forces guys, and, while tough dudes (I wouldn't mess with them), they aren't near the level of fictional action heroes, let alone Jedi.

[Nolgroth]

Well, a few basic attempts do not constitute training.

Open palm strikes can be deflected, by turning them to the side.
Yes, but these "few basic attempts" do indicate the presence of some sort of training. Anybody can throw a kick or attempt a sweep maneuver, but these were all remniscent of actual martial arts. Admittedly, I'm no black belt, but I have taken some martial arts here and there.

In regards to the deflecting an open palm strike, you are correct and in turn, a Jedi could come up with something else.


However, since two people claim that they demonstrate more martial skill than I can recall, I will do as suggested and review the movies once more, specifically looking for instances of Jedi actually using their BODIES as weapons, sans lightsabers.
If the movies are purely where you draw your information from, then the Commando units we have seen, specifically clone warriors and the ice troopers on Hoth, never indicated the ability to fight unarmed. They ran around with blaster rifles and some sort of polymer armor. Mind you they are very good at using those blasters and I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a "fire for effect" maneuver.

Chances are, and please correct me if I am wrong, you are drawing on knowledge concerning commando units that are outside the scope of observable behavior from the movies. That's okay, but expect that others will also do so.


If I find I was incorrect, I will retract some of my statements.I would never expect you to do so on my behalf. I think your position is an arguable one and I have chosen to argue the opposite side.


I still say a commando fights smarter, and therefore could win. But it would have to be on conditions that they established. Fortunately, commandos are VERY good at doing that, while Jedi are not. :nonp:And this is where we agree. If the commando can dictate the terms of battle, then he stands a huge chance of succeeding. A much larger chance than, say, the two of them meeting in an alley and starting a fist fight.

In terms of sheer physical strength, the Jedi are very acrobatic. That leads to very compact and efficient muscles. The commando would probably have a similar muscular structure; lean, compact and powerful muscles. Pull-ups, push-ups and other conditioning exercises would most certainly make them strong. I think the two would have such similar "generic" physical characteristics that raw physical prowess would be reduced to which individual just happened to be more conditioned.

On the other hand, the Jedi have a boost in terms of using the force, not only for speed, but also for accuracy. This is established in the conversation between Gui Gon Jinn and Anakin where they are talking about the reflexes required to race the pod racers. Luke Skywalker, of course, used this same accuracy to hit a small target that a sophisticated computer targeting system couldn't. While both these instances were translated through a vehicular medium, I see no reason why it wouldn't also reflect their ability in open hand combat. It certainly translates into their ability to reflect blaster bolts with the lightsaber.

Now, all of my arguments have reflected a basic human type commando and a basic human type jedi. An augmented commando, say genetically engineered or cybernetically enhanced, would have better odds than one without such advantages. A non-human, such as a trandoshan or wookie stands a higher chance than the unaugmented human as well.

And to the question of why no wookie jedi. I have to shrug and ask why no trandoshan, ithorian, or some of the other races we see in the cantina scenes. Maybe there are or were, but they are not portrayed on screen.

[Manic Typist]

Yes, but these "few basic attempts" do indicate the presence of some sort of training. Anybody can throw a kick or attempt a sweep maneuver, but these were all remniscent of actual martial arts. Admittedly, I'm no black belt, but I have taken some martial arts here and there.

In regards to the deflecting an open palm strike, you are correct and in turn, a Jedi could come up with something else.


If the movies are purely where you draw your information from, then the Commando units we have seen, specifically clone warriors and the ice troopers on Hoth, never indicated the ability to fight unarmed. They ran around with blaster rifles and some sort of polymer armor. Mind you they are very good at using those blasters and I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a "fire for effect" maneuver.

Chances are, and please correct me if I am wrong, you are drawing on knowledge concerning commando units that are outside the scope of observable behavior from the movies. That's okay, but expect that others will also do so.

I would never expect you to do so on my behalf. I think your position is an arguable one and I have chosen to argue the opposite side.

And this is where we agree. If the commando can dictate the terms of battle, then he stands a huge chance of succeeding. A much larger chance than, say, the two of them meeting in an alley and starting a fist fight.







True.

Agreed.

Point.

No, you are exactly right, and this is a huge flaw in my reasoning which I will try to clarify.

If I'm wrong, I'm gonna tell ya I'm wrong. At least, if you convince me that I am wrong. Anything else and I would be a prick.

Ok, that is hilarious. "So a Jedi and commando meet in an alley and..." Repped.

I guess my whole point is that I was using real life perceptions of commandos, and conceptions of what possible advancements in training would be made by the time of the Star Wars universe, to argue the viewpoint that although Jedi are indubitably not something to be trifled with, I think commandos are better trained.

Now, as I have only really seen the movies when it comes to Star Wars... that is all I have to operate on.

See, I believe that Jedi are amazingly sexy as a concept (Note: I have a habit of using the word sexy to mean "cool." Unless it is actually sensual, in which case it is SEXY, and it is also automaticaly sexy as well. ;) ), I think that their typical representation on screen really doesn't live up to what I believe it could be, nor what I have been lead to believe by talking to some truly hardcore Star Wars fans (who have read most of the books etc).

Thus, I think that as presented on screen, a commando's training (from something more real life based) is far more grueling, comprehensive, and balanced than a Jedi's.

And that just don't sound right to me.

[ApocalypseZero]

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to try to play the 'Who will win?' scenerio for this little topic, but one thing I've learned is that nothing ever goes how you'd think it. Who's to say that the Jedi missed his blaster reflection and is thus, caught by the resulting shot? In the same terms, a commando could 'pull grenade, throw pin'. What I am saying is that unless the situation is presented, talk is nothing.

Now, that being said, there are several instances where Jedi are mowed down by blaster fire. Some of them are illogical (Revenge of the Sith's 'Order 66' scenes), some of them seem possible (Attack of the Clones's 'Arena' scene, which saw many Jedi, including Masters, gunned down), and then beyond the movies. The problem the movies have (as with all movies) is that the Main Character (who are Jedi in Star Wars films) are potentially invulnerable. Do I need to quote Kenobi's words about Stormtrooper training and point out their lack of when shooting at Han, all in the same film? (A New Hope) This is where people need to let go of the movies and see what's really going on.

Jedi are just like everyone else. The Force does not make them automatic winners in combat. That being said, they are not 'One Trick Ponies' (as someone above said). In fact, Jedi laws strictly say that the Saber and Force are to only be used once all other avenues are exhausted. Even against Dark Jedi/Sith, a Jedi is suppose to try to understand and convince, not attack and destroy. So many see Jedi as Soldiers, when they are Diplomats with training. I think the best comparison for Jedi are Martial Artist today. Taught never to use their skills to harm, but in self defense.

As for a game, I think that the player Jedi Knights should be at least on par with Soldiers/Fighters of non-Jedi, at least in terms of Melee Combat.

As for Alien Jedi, there are many. In the movies, only Mace Windu was human on the Master Council. And for Wookie Jedi, I only know of Lowbacca (sp?) in the New Jedi Era. Wookie rage is one of the keys to making a Wookie Jedi, because one would have to have complete control over it.

If you would like more information, I like the Star Wars Database. I don't have a link, but put that in a search engine and you should be fine. The site even breaks things down from Movies to Expanded Universe.

[Nolgroth]

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to try to play the 'Who will win?' scenerio for this little topic, but one thing I've learned is that nothing ever goes how you'd think it. Who's to say that the Jedi missed his blaster reflection and is thus, caught by the resulting shot? In the same terms, a commando could 'pull grenade, throw pin'. What I am saying is that unless the situation is presented, talk is nothing.Well, I think both Manic Typist and myself both agree that this little scenario was argued specifically from the point of view that both the Jedi and Commando were unarmed and at point blank range. "Presenting the situation" becomes harder, as the movies are all wrapped up and anything written and/or produced is going to be biased towards the authors preference. Even a roleplaying game can be skewed towards author preference.


The problem the movies have (as with all movies) is that the Main Character (who are Jedi in Star Wars films) are potentially invulnerable. Do I need to quote Kenobi's words about Stormtrooper training and point out their lack of when shooting at Han, all in the same film? (A New Hope)This is a convention of most ficticious material. Wouldn't be much of a story if the protagonist(s) was/were killed before the story really got rolling now would it.


This is where people need to let go of the movies and see what's really going on.Ahh, but the movies are our one source of "canon" material upon which we base our arguments. We could go to the novels, which I've only read a few (namely Timothy Zahn's series with Grand Admiral Thrawn) or the Extended Universe, but without a comparable reading/video game list, that extra source information is practically useless.


In fact, Jedi laws strictly say that the Saber and Force are to only be used once all other avenues are exhausted. Even against Dark Jedi/Sith, a Jedi is suppose to try to understand and convince, not attack and destroy. So many see Jedi as Soldiers, when they are Diplomats with training. I think the best comparison for Jedi are Martial Artist today. Taught never to use their skills to harm, but in self defense.Totally off topic from the Commando vs. Jedi sub-thread, but I wanted to comment on this. I truly wish that I could have seen that aspect of the Jedi during the prequels. All I saw is an instaneous reaction to draw lightsaber and attack, like when Anakin dropped back into the elevator in Revenge of the Sith . Maybe before the Clone Wars, there was a time when this was true, but after the Seperatist Movement, the Jedi were warriors and even carried rank (for example General Kenobi).

Speaking of the sub-thread. I really did not mean to co-opt the thread. If y'all like I can start a new one. There is some relevence here, but I'm not sure if it follows the main idea of the thread.

[austenandrews]

Mind you, I've always been in the "Jedi are not gods" camp. I always saw them as equivalent to knights in a medieval setting - they're tough guys but not the only ones, not unlike "commandoes" in the real world. At the same time, I would never say that knights are wimps in unarmed fighting.

[Greg]

A lot of the source material focuses on the fall of the Jedi so we're seeing a slanted view of them. At that point in time in RotS they were hypocritical and took themselves a little too seriously. That's basically the whole conflict in KOTOR2 as well since the Jedi were sitting idly by during the Mandalorian wars. I think Jedi should need to take some sort of honor code as a disadvantage, but the way they act on that should make a pretty interesting role-playing experience. If you transplanted them into the movie Equilibrium the Sith would be the good guys. The Jedi have to somehow be compassionate about the people around them yet at the same time not be empathetic with others and instead shield their emotions.

[ApocalypseZero]

And hence, where I seem to have the problem with Light/Dark side in a game. Because the basis of the Light side is almost against what most (all) RPG's seem to provide for players. Face it, the game had roots in 'Slaying the Dragon', something against the Jedi nature. So, in the beginning, the setting will most likely be flawed or need to be flexible for a dark/neutral feel.

I also want to point out that I made a post that finally got placed and should be on Page 4 about HERO System rules and Star Wars Entities being converted into it. For those looking to this for that, please check it out and comment.

[Greg]

But in Star Wars the Republic is EVIL so there's nothing really to keep a Jedi from going against them. There's not really in grey area in the Lucas universe so it's simply good vs. evil. In KOTOR 1&2 it's different because there are neutral Jedi in both games. If Lucas had written those then those 2 Jedi would be sliding to the dark side because they're actively rejecting the Jedi code. From an RPG perspective a Jedi isn't all that different from a D&D paladin. Anything on a grander scale is decided by the Jedi Souncil and a Jedi then needs to follow whatever they say to be "lawful". The hardest part is like the intro to the game Ultima 6. How would a Jedi respond to:

Thou hast been sent to secure a needed treaty with a distant Lord. Thy host is agreeable to the proposal but insults thy country at dinner. Dost thou:
* Bear the slurs
* Rise and demand an apology

A local bully pushes for a fight. Dost thou:
* Decline, knowing that no lasting good will come of it
* Trounce the rogue

Thou art sworn to uphold a Lord who participates in the forbidden torture of prisoners. Each night their cries of pain reach thee. Dost thou:
* Keep thine oath and ignore the deeds
* Report the deeds

Thy friend seeks admittance to thy Spiritual order. Thou art asked to vouch for his purity of Spirit, of which thou art unsure. Dost thou:
* Vouch for him, hoping for his improvement
* Express thy doubt

There aren't clear answers to any of those. The Jedi has to choose his alliance with the council or to what he thinks is right. I'm sure some are going to have what they *know* to be right. That's probably what is going to make a Jedi so interesting to play.

PS: here's a link to all the question from U6 - http://www.tk421.net/ultima/ they could all make for interesting hooks once modified.

[Nolgroth]

And hence, where I seem to have the problem with Light/Dark side in a game. Because the basis of the Light side is almost against what most (all) RPG's seem to provide for players. Face it, the game had roots in 'Slaying the Dragon', something against the Jedi nature. So, in the beginning, the setting will most likely be flawed or need to be flexible for a dark/neutral feel.The Lucas morality for the Jedi is pretty pathetic. Like you, I don't particularly care for it. You cannot get angry? Ever? This Jedi code subscribes to a completely unrealistic world view that is unhealthy and stifling to basic human emotions. Indeed, it is not the presence of anger or hate or love that defines us, it is how we cope with those emotions. The Jedi seem to be forbidden from feeling anything. At least for the humans in the lot, that is a surer way to evil than by feeling.

[Nevenall]

The Lucas morality for the Jedi is pretty pathetic. Like you, I don't particularly care for it. You cannot get angry? Ever? This Jedi code subscribes to a completely unrealistic world view that is unhealthy and stifling to basic human emotions. Indeed, it is not the presence of anger or hate or love that defines us, it is how we cope with those emotions. The Jedi seem to be forbidden from feeling anything. At least for the humans in the lot, that is a surer way to evil than by feeling.

The new Lord of Sith made that same point to one of the Jedi in my Jedi Academy Campaign. He even wondered why the two Order could not be recombined. "We have much to teach each other." but the question is was he saying that because he believed it or was he subverting the truth to turn the Jedi to the Dark side.

I think the emotionless attitude is one reason the Old Order failed. A gradual diminishing of true wisdom replaced by commands.
You can't remove emotions, but the Force gives you the strength to not be Ruled by them.

[Nolgroth]

I think the emotionless attitude is one reason the Old Order failed. A gradual diminishing of true wisdom replaced by commands.
You can't remove emotions, but the Force gives you the strength to not be Ruled by them.Hmm. I took this a whole different way. I took it as the Force fed off and amplified emotions. That is why anger becomes such a destructive, er...force. It was the disciplinary training that the Jedi taught that kept their emotions under lock and key. It would be interesting to see how poweful the Force would feed into a positive emotion, such as love. I don't believe that, in a Lucas controlled script, any emotion could be a positive thing. But I could imagine somebody who isn't jealous and weighed down with feelings of inadequacy could channel feelings of love through the Force with great effect. This whole line of thought makes me wonder if the Jedi do really suppress emotion. Could the courage that the average Jedi feel be amplified through the Force to make them completely fearless. I also wonder if the Jedi fear of the Dark Side led them to subconsciously set the path towards their own destruction. I am going way out on this one and I need to think about it a little bit more.

[Manic Typist]

The Jedi destroyed themselves with their flawed beliefs, or their failure to hold true to aspects of those beliefs when they really should have.

Kind of tragic, but also just really irksome. It wasn't made to be tragic, it was just completely ignored, thus making them hypocrites to me.

[Nolgroth]

The Jedi destroyed themselves with their flawed beliefs, or their failure to hold true to aspects of those beliefs when they really should have.

Kind of tragic, but also just really irksome. It wasn't made to be tragic, it was just completely ignored, thus making them hypocrites to me.From the movies, I came to the conclusion that the Jedi and the Republic had stagnated. They were so entrenched with keeping the status quo that new ideas were met with heated and often violent reaction. In many ways, I think the Sith are a very necessary and natural part of the Lucas' mythology. They serve to shake things up and get things moving. They were able to dominate the Jedi because the Jedi held power for so long that they could not conceive of losing.

My previous post basically was waxing philosophical on the nature of the Force. If I am correct and the Force amplifies emotion, does the presence of dread (fear is more of an immediate response) also get amplified and can it have long term impact? Basically I was asking; did the Jedi subconsciously set in motion their own demise by dreading the return of the Sith? Did that dread, amplified through the Force, allow for the Sith to position themselves under the Jedis' very noses. Yoda stated that the Dark Side was clouding everything, but was the Dark Side originating from the Sith or from the Jedi themselves.

[ApocalypseZero]

***I hate to ruin the game, so if no one here has played/beaten Knights of the Old Republic 2, please skip this post.***

This is part of the driving behind the game. KotOR II specifically touches on the nature of the force and if it is not alive and of it's own plats and plans. The Force is described and portrayed as the link in life, that connects every living thing, but your character in KotOR II had been seperated from the Force, and to be able to know the Force and live without it is seen as a truely dangerous thing.

Of course, we all could be overlooking the whole thing and just not seeing it as a plot device that became a theory, then a cult following, and now a legend.

[bigdamnhero]

Sorry, MT, but I don't think your argument makes the least bit of sense. You're essentially arguing that a laser sword capable of cutting through anything is worthless at close range. :eek: Of course you don't see the Jedi throwing a lot of joint locks and finger strikes: why go for the 6d6N attack when you're carrying a 6d6K attack?

That said, Lucas has %&$#@# up the SW universe so badly (I'm not a fan of the new movies, does it show?) that the only real lesson we can draw from them is: Jedi can effortlessly take out any number of non-Jedi, until/unless the plot requires them to die in which case they automatically blow all their rolls. Or maybe they just "lost the will to live." :rolleyes:

Getting back to Greg’s original post I think you’re on the right track here. One thing to consider would be to give Jedi and non-Jedi the same number (or close) of base points, but allow the Jedi to take more points from Disads. So you wind up with Jedi who are more powerful but have so many codes of conduct that they’re constrained a bit.

I also like the suggestion of giving non-Force users a gadget VPP (with restrictions) to allow them to swap out equipment.

And don’t forget luck – plenty of luck!


bigdamnhero
“Aren’t you a little short for a stormtrooper?”

[bigdamnhero]

Or perhaps I should clarify: MT are you thinking in terms of "reality" or in terms of game mechanics, ie - "If I can grab him he won't be able to use his OAF and he's hosed!"


bigdamnhero
"Well, my days of not taking you serious are certainly coming to a middle."

[Inu]

Hmm. I took this a whole different way. I took it as the Force fed off and amplified emotions. That is why anger becomes such a destructive, er...force. It was the disciplinary training that the Jedi taught that kept their emotions under lock and key. It would be interesting to see how poweful the Force would feed into a positive emotion, such as love. I don't believe that, in a Lucas controlled script, any emotion could be a positive thing. But I could imagine somebody who isn't jealous and weighed down with feelings of inadequacy could channel feelings of love through the Force with great effect. This whole line of thought makes me wonder if the Jedi do really suppress emotion. Could the courage that the average Jedi feel be amplified through the Force to make them completely fearless. I also wonder if the Jedi fear of the Dark Side led them to subconsciously set the path towards their own destruction. I am going way out on this one and I need to think about it a little bit more.
Of course, what the Jedi say and what 'the truth' is can be two different things. People keep saying that there is black and white in the SW universe, with nothing inbetween... but I think the prequels are a lot more complex than that. There's the whole story, for instance, of how easy it is to fall. How good decisions can be bad, and vice versa. And how you can't always tell the difference between them.

For emotions: I see this as a kind of 'emotions can be dangerous, therefore we damp them all. All!' Yes, it is somewhat dangerous. Emotions are dangerous... damping emotions is dangerous. The Jedi had seen so many fall because of their emotions, they veered waaaaaaay too far the other way and created this mythos around emotions, that you cannot even go near them without being destroyed. 'Any dark side is all dark side' kind of stuff. Which we can see is false, as I can point to several points where heroic jedi call on the strength of their negative emotions (or at least, where my interpretation is that they do).

Yoda, in Empire, can't quite let go of this. But to some extent, of course, he does. He tells Luke what he believes.. but he doesn't enforce it. He allows Luke to develop his own way. Luke thus becomes strong enough to walk the fine line between falling to the dark side and becoming strong enough to defeat Vader. Thus, bringing balance to the Force.

This also ties to your later post, about the Jedi stagnating. Absolutely, they had. Even from the first film, with this whole prophecy about 'bringing balance to the Force', I knew it wasn't going to work out how the Jedi hoped. Well, of course, I was informed by later continuity. But basically, by going evil and having the Jedi destroyed, then finally killing the Emperor... yeah, he brought balance. He levelled the playing field, and brought Luke. The Jedi were simply too entrenched in their own arses to be able to see the fundamental truth that they were becoming their own worst enemies.

Well, except for Palpatine. Their own worst enemies after Palpatine.

[Inu]

Um, wow, you sarcasm is cute, but since I stated that I was running strictly by movies........ at the very get go........ well, it's just completely nontopical.
And my point is that the movies simply don't (and can't) show everything. They have to be interpreted, it's the only way. Which means one man's Jedi will be different to another's. What's on paper should agree fairly closely with what's on screen, but slavishly sticking to everything actually shown and not going beyond that... well, it's a very limited approach.


Because, see, I'm sure in the books, there's plenty of reasons justifying why the Jedi in fact are NOT completely overrated.

Because, they are supposed to be well-rounded. They aren't. They arrogant. They are heavily trained in one area, not in another.
Nah, I don't care about the books. I've not read a single one that I feel fits at all well into the SW universe.

But as for their training... this is easily underestimated. Jedi train for something like twenty years, the later 10+ years being on-the-job practical training. (This is going by a single canon example, which may or may not be exceptional. That being that Obi-Wan appeared to be in his late twenties - the book dated him at 30-something, I think? - when he graduated. MEanwhile, we see 5-6 year olds practising with lightsabres, and 14-year-old padawans who can use lightsabres effectively enough to take on multiple commandoes at range for a few seconds. And THAT isn't anywhere NEAR jedi standards.) Guaranteed, there will be holes in that training, but not many. In practical situations, they may end up without their lightsabres. I would think it highly illogical if they were incapable of surviving without them.


My point is this: Jedi are not nearly as hardcore as they appear because: A) They rely too much upon the Force and B) They rely too much upon their lightsabers.

Two-trick ponies.
And here is where I disagree (well, to the second... I agree that they aren't as hardcore as some fans make them out to be). They rely heavily on those things, yes... because why not? They're seriously effective. But we see some evidence of being able to survive without the sabres. Therefore, the possibility exists of all sorts of sabreless combat techniques. Simply because more isn't shown on the screen doesn't mean it doesn't exist.



And Massey?

No. Luke's PT training, though admirable, and certainly more grueling than anything I could probably take, is nothing compared to what a truly elite commando goes through.
His traning was anything between a month long and a whole buncha months long (it all depends how long it took the Falcon to get to Cloud City. That 'wipe' could stand in for a very, very long time). What we see is some seriously intenstive exercise. Again, there's room for a whole host of other stuff. We don't know: how much he ate, how much he slept, how much of his day was filled with that exercise, what other forms of exercise there were, etc. Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. We got a hint... is that the whole, or is that just the tip of the mega-iceberg? There's not enough to say the training IS that intense, but there's too much possibility to say it certainly IS NOT.

I agree in one respect: the jedi are not gods. A whole bunch get killed on Geonosis, and a whoooooole bunch more in the temple, by commandoes. In the first case, massed enemy fire coming from all directions. In the second, prolly much the same, coupled with Anakin to take out the truly skilled ones (who could, perhaps, deflect for a few seconds, then leap out of line of fire?).

As for the ones who get ambushed, I see this as a combination of two things. One, the commandoes were responding to implanted orders. No emotions. It's fairly established that the Jedi are sensitive to others' emotions - it's why Vader had Luke's friends tortured. So emotionless attackers have something of an advantage. Not too much, though - JEdi can sense danger from droids, after all. The second element is trust. The Jedi had fought at the side of these commandoes for months, or years. They trusted them. Third, just because the sense is something we don't have, doesn't mean it's not affected by the same things, say, eyesight or hearing are. There's 'terrain' - on the battlefield, they may be getting constant 'danger' signals. They learn to ignore some as irrelevant to them, others as imminent. They start getting danger signals from behind them. They trust their buddies to have their backs... and then it's too late. They're dead. That whole 'massed blaster fire' thing again.

(Personally, I think it likely that several Jedi managed to escape from these ambushes. I don't think it likely that Obi-Wan and Yoda were the only two to ever escape. They're just the only two we saw on-screen.)

Anyway... that's a long post to make one point, really. I don't think Jedi are gods. I don't think they're gimps, either. They're multi-skilled, capable of engaging situations in many ways (from non-violent to violent) and damn good at what they do. They are not, however, undefeatable. This is painfully self-evident. They have a tendency to be overconfident... they certainly have a streak of undefeatability, which tends to lead them to becoming defeatable.

I guess that's about all I have to say.

[CSgeekHero]

KOTOR = Knights of the Old Republic : There were two computer games that came out in the past few years under the title. They were both well done and told during the Madalorian Wars era and the Rise of the Sith. Didn't play the first. I played the sequal and it deals with rebuilding the Republic that is on death's door and the main character is the 'last' of the jedi.


By all means, play the first one. While the second one was good, the story in the first one is much better. It has more of a Star Wars feel to it.

[Nevenall]

From the movies, I came to the conclusion that the Jedi and the Republic had stagnated. They were so entrenched with keeping the status quo that new ideas were met with heated and often violent reaction. In many ways, I think the Sith are a very necessary and natural part of the Lucas' mythology. They serve to shake things up and get things moving. They were able to dominate the Jedi because the Jedi held power for so long that they could not conceive of losing.

My previous post basically was waxing philosophical on the nature of the Force. If I am correct and the Force amplifies emotion, does the presence of dread (fear is more of an immediate response) also get amplified and can it have long term impact? Basically I was asking; did the Jedi subconsciously set in motion their own demise by dreading the return of the Sith? Did that dread, amplified through the Force, allow for the Sith to position themselves under the Jedis' very noses. Yoda stated that the Dark Side was clouding everything, but was the Dark Side originating from the Sith or from the Jedi themselves.


I wouldn't say that the Force effects your emotions, but with a power as great as the Force, the consequences of losing control of your emotions becomes much greater.

[Nolgroth]

I wouldn't say that the Force effects your emotions, but with a power as great as the Force, the consequences of losing control of your emotions becomes much greater. Oh yeah, my thoughts were mostly a "what if" kind of thing. It just seems to me that the effects of emotion seem to be more powerful with a Force user. Look at Luke when Vader threatens to seduce Leia to the Dark Side. The anger became almost all consuming and it took a very real object lesson (the similarity between Vader's mechanical arm and his own) to shock him back to control. Of course, that could just as well been attributed to natural and unaugmented anger as well. Probably was in fact.

I just like to consider the nature of the force and considering just how "elemental" it appears to be, I just have this idea that the Jedi repress emotion to prevent the Force from feeding on and fueling emotional states. It is their way to control the Force instead of the Force controlling them.

Hurm. That leads to another thought. What if the way the Sith interact with the Force is more "natural" than the Jedi? What if the Force is more primal than what the Jedi believe and though they are capable of tapping into the resevoir of power, the Force is constantly tempting them to let go of the emotional control. I would almost say, in that case, that the whole "Dark Side is easier, more seductive" argument can suddenly be seen in a whole new light. The Jedi then become something even more. They have all this power that they could tap if they would just give in to temptation, but the maintain control of themselves; possibly at the cost of some of the power that they could wield.

Perhaps giving in to the Dark Side does make a Force user more powerful, but it always seemed to come with a price.

Yeah, I'm going way out again. :) (Lookit nolgroth, notice how the sun reflects off him as he passes in orbit.)

[Manic Typist]

Sorry, MT, but I don't think your argument makes the least bit of sense. You're essentially arguing that a laser sword capable of cutting through anything is worthless at close range. :eek: Of course you don't see the Jedi throwing a lot of joint locks and finger strikes: why go for the 6d6N attack when you're carrying a 6d6K attack?




bigdamnhero
“Aren’t you a little short for a stormtrooper?”

No, but I do believe that a lightsaber would only MAYBE be marginally more useful than a regular sword.

Now, remember, I am talking CLOSE range. At this distance, the combatant could completely negate the lighsaber by merely continually pushing the hilt and hands to the outside of the fight. Remember, the blade has to actually be brought to bear. The lightsaber suffers from the same "Don't let them inside your arm reach" disadvantage that all swords suffer.

Now, a lightsaber is lighter (haha) and therefore can be moved more quickly, so the commando would have to be on top of things, and you can't block the edge like you might with a normal sword, so he would have to continually attack the Jedi's weapon arm.


Inu- Basically, all my posts were trying to get at is that I do not fully approve of the on screen representation of Jedi, because from the concept stuff I have been exposed to, the screen either falls completely short of them or is even directly misleading.

And, I do not think the weapons should make the character. But the Jedi are completely dependent upon the Force and their lightsabers. This is in direct contradiction with both their philosophy and good sense.

[Kyle A.]

I for one am disgusted with the way this whole topic has been discussed. Especially from Manic Typist and Nolgroth! Here we are nearing the end of 2005 and we still have people who don't know how to have a proper arguement over the internet. Where are the accusations of homosexuallity? Where are the threats against eachothers famillies? And where are the sacred cries of "n00b!1!"? And how dare you reasonably concede points when a convincing arguement is made! For shame, Manic Typist, for shame Nolgroth.


:lol:

[AmadanNaBriona]

No, but I do believe that a lightsaber would only MAYBE be marginally more useful than a regular sword.

Now, remember, I am talking CLOSE range. At this distance, the combatant could completely negate the lighsaber by merely continually pushing the hilt and hands to the outside of the fight. Remember, the blade has to actually be brought to bear. The lightsaber suffers from the same "Don't let them inside your arm reach" disadvantage that all swords suffer.

Now, a lightsaber is lighter (haha) and therefore can be moved more quickly, so the commando would have to be on top of things, and you can't block the edge like you might with a normal sword, so he would have to continually attack the Jedi's weapon arm.


Inu- Basically, all my posts were trying to get at is that I do not fully approve of the on screen representation of Jedi, because from the concept stuff I have been exposed to, the screen either falls completely short of them or is even directly misleading.

And, I do not think the weapons should make the character. But the Jedi are completely dependent upon the Force and their lightsabers. This is in direct contradiction with both their philosophy and good sense.

Besides the whole "The blade goes through anything" factor...
And the "With virtually no mass and the entire surface is a devestating cutting surface" factor...
I think that perhaps you're not considering that the lightsabre can also be turned off and on again. As well as potentially being manipulated while not even in the jedi's hand. Having the blade sudden reactivated while pointing at your, oh, head... or chest.. or groin... or anywhere really.... would be a fight ender.
Jedi martial arts don't HAVE to rely on jointlocks and breaks, because their disarming manuvers DIS-Arm you.
In any case... having been in swordfights involving lots of grappling, I can say that its not at all hard for even a half way competent swordsman to bring a sword blade in contact with a foe using a grappling art... its just a pointless manuver with a steel sword, as the best you'll accomplish is a shallow surface cut. That changes with a lightsaber.

EDIT: Note also that most of the pre-fencing era German and Italian schools of swordfighting involve HEAVY grappling arts combined with swords... and many of the moves are INTENDED to bring the edge of the blade into one of the positions where even with no force other than a draw cut the blade is still dangerous... mostly groin and throat moves.

And yeah... I've tussled with a couple of "commandos" (If you consider Navy SEALs Commandos, one of whom is also a Kung Fu instuctor). Got myself right tore up too, but I'm no Jedi. Even then... I walked away from the fight. Took 6 months or so for my ribs to heal, but I avoided getting any limbs broken. Was a close thing, but the little aikido I picked up sparring back in the good ole days served me in good stead, defensively. In general, learning defensive techniques, including how to prevent getting into a nasty lock, is always easier than learning how to execute said locks.

Dammit, and I told myself I wasn't going to get involved in this whole stupid "Commandos are 733+ k177xxors! Jed1s are teh suxxor 'cause they are stupid hippys. Commandos would pwn jedis" conversation....

[Nevenall]

Oh yeah, my thoughts were mostly a "what if" kind of thing. It just seems to me that the effects of emotion seem to be more powerful with a Force user. Look at Luke when Vader threatens to seduce Leia to the Dark Side. The anger became almost all consuming and it took a very real object lesson (the similarity between Vader's mechanical arm and his own) to shock him back to control. Of course, that could just as well been attributed to natural and unaugmented anger as well. Probably was in fact.

I just like to consider the nature of the force and considering just how "elemental" it appears to be, I just have this idea that the Jedi repress emotion to prevent the Force from feeding on and fueling emotional states. It is their way to control the Force instead of the Force controlling them.

Hurm. That leads to another thought. What if the way the Sith interact with the Force is more "natural" than the Jedi? What if the Force is more primal than what the Jedi believe and though they are capable of tapping into the resevoir of power, the Force is constantly tempting them to let go of the emotional control. I would almost say, in that case, that the whole "Dark Side is easier, more seductive" argument can suddenly be seen in a whole new light. The Jedi then become something even more. They have all this power that they could tap if they would just give in to temptation, but the maintain control of themselves; possibly at the cost of some of the power that they could wield.

Perhaps giving in to the Dark Side does make a Force user more powerful, but it always seemed to come with a price.

Yeah, I'm going way out again. :) (Lookit nolgroth, notice how the sun reflects off him as he passes in orbit.)

(Bringing illumination to all and sundry)

You, sir, make good points.

I've always felt that most Jedi don't have to worry about the darkside. I've never seen any evidence that Obi Wan or Yoda were ever tempted towards the DS. If it was so easy to turn there would be a LOT more Sith. To me the Force is like Lothlorien. There is no evil to fear unless you bring it with you. It's a character's other disadvantages that leave him vulnerable. Anakin's DNPC Mother becomes a Psychological Disadvantage to protect those he loves, which leaves him vulnerable to the darkside.

It's not so clear in Luke's case, but he has the same desire to protect his friends when he leaves his training to face Vader at Cloud City, and when he faces the Emperor and Vader he faces them as the last Jedi and the last rebel in the Galaxy. The Emperor convinced him that the attack will fail so Luke is the only thing standing in the way of the Emperor's total domination of the galaxy. That's pretty scary all by itself.

That's why in my campaign, you have to don't have to worry about the darkside unless you have a disadvantage that could lead you to use your powers in fear and anger, or you choose to take the character points that the DS offers to speed up your development or to access powers that you cannot as a Jedi, like DEX boosting powers.

All that said many Sith in my campaign can create an aura of unease, which is a Change Enviroment that gives minuses to Ego rolls. That, and a few choice words, can greatly speed your progress down the darkside.

[Manic Typist]

Besides the whole "The blade goes through anything" factor...
And the "With virtually no mass and the entire surface is a devestating cutting surface" factor...
I think that perhaps you're not considering that the lightsabre can also be turned off and on again. As well as potentially being manipulated while not even in the jedi's hand. Having the blade sudden reactivated while pointing at your, oh, head... or chest.. or groin... or anywhere really.... would be a fight ender.
Jedi martial arts don't HAVE to rely on jointlocks and breaks, because their disarming manuvers DIS-Arm you.
In any case... having been in swordfights involving lots of grappling, I can say that its not at all hard for even a half way competent swordsman to bring a sword blade in contact with a foe using a grappling art... its just a pointless manuver with a steel sword, as the best you'll accomplish is a shallow surface cut. That changes with a lightsaber.

EDIT: Note also that most of the pre-fencing era German and Italian schools of swordfighting involve HEAVY grappling arts combined with swords... and many of the moves are INTENDED to bring the edge of the blade into one of the positions where even with no force other than a draw cut the blade is still dangerous... mostly groin and throat moves.

And yeah... I've tussled with a couple of "commandos" (If you consider Navy SEALs Commandos, one of whom is also a Kung Fu instuctor). Got myself right tore up too, but I'm no Jedi. Even then... I walked away from the fight. Took 6 months or so for my ribs to heal, but I avoided getting any limbs broken. Was a close thing, but the little aikido I picked up sparring back in the good ole days served me in good stead, defensively. In general, learning defensive techniques, including how to prevent getting into a nasty lock, is always easier than learning how to execute said locks.

Dammit, and I told myself I wasn't going to get involved in this whole stupid "Commandos are 733+ k177xxors! Jed1s are teh suxxor 'cause they are stupid hippys. Commandos would pwn jedis" conversation....


I would be VERY interested in hearing more about your sword experiences and your run in with the Seals. For that alone, you are getting repped.

But, it doesn't matter if the sword can cut through anything, if I am constantly keeping the hand that holds it far to the outside of the fight and pointed away from me. If you turn it off, and then try to point it at me, well, I will treat it as a very short range gun. Knock the aim away from my body.

[Nolgroth]

I for one am disgusted with the way this whole topic has been discussed. Especially from Manic Typist and Nolgroth! Here we are nearing the end of 2005 and we still have people who don't know how to have a proper arguement over the internet. Where are the accusations of homosexuallity? Where are the threats against eachothers famillies? And where are the sacred cries of "n00b!1!"? And how dare you reasonably concede points when a convincing arguement is made! For shame, Manic Typist, for shame Nolgroth.


:lol:Well, I for one will have to take action on this. You Big Mean Person you! How do you like that!?! Huh? That's what I thought. Well there's plenty more where that came from. :)

[Manic Typist]

I cast aspirations upon the nature of your conception and lineage!

[Greg]

From my limited experience with swordfighting from the SCA back in college and some fencing classes, arm grappling usually comes into play more with polearms because you're relatively safe reaching for the shaft. With a long sword you need a fair amount up upper arm whereas with a rapier you're doing a lot more with your wrists. A lightsaber basically weighs nothing so you're probably more likely going with a fencing stance. Darth Sideous even had a pistol grip like my fencing instructor had. So think sword in the front and opposite arm behind to minimize the amount of stuff in the way. With a lightsaber if somebody did grab your forearm you still have a chance to swat at them with your wrist since the weapon is essentially weightless and just needs to brush against them. A commando really needs to be careful because if you dropped it, it'd probably take their leg off. Since you're in a fencing stance, your sword would be fairly far from your body and you'd be relatively safe. You could compare it to trying to disarm somebody with a plasma cutter or something like that. Just a brush is enough to main someone.

[Manic Typist]

Imagine if you were holding the Jedi's wrist high above their head...... and they knew how to twirl their lightsaber through their fingers.


Ouch. Can't block that.