Fantasy Cliches

[tkdguy]

http://amethyst-angel.com/cliche.html

[Chuckg]

The Van Helsing Cliche List at the end was the best part.

[AliceTheOwl]

Van Helsing Rule #14: Cool, creepy art direction and millions of dollars of special effects cannot make up for a script conceived and written by a severely impaired tube worm...

:rofl:

[Chuckg]

Van Helsing Rule #12: The stroke of midnight can, if the plot calls for it, go on for twenty minutes or more.

Hysterical!

[gamerz123]

I like VH rule #10 about the lunar cycle in Eastern Europe being 4 days long :)

[teh bunneh]

Huh. I must be watching the wrong movies/reading the wrong books/playing the wrong games. A whole bunch of those were new to me. How'd they get to be cliches? :confused:

Bill.
(Though most of the Van Helsing ones were funny) :D

[FenrisUlf]

I will say that some of those cliches can still be fun if they're used by a writer with enough imagination and skill. Playing it for fun doesn't hurt, i.e., i.e., Harry Turtledove running out the Civil War in the west in his War in the Provinces series.

[Old Man]

Hah, they left one cliche off the Van Helsing list:

The one object that can save the hero and doom the villain will not only be kept in the villain's fortress, it will be kept in a high, unlocked tower room of its own, so prominently displayed that the villain might as well hang a neon sign above it that reads "CRITICAL PLOT OBJECT HERE." It will not be lost somewhere in the back of one of the villain's desk drawers, or in a box somewhere in the attic.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Huh. I must be watching the wrong movies/reading the wrong books/playing the wrong games. A whole bunch of those were new to me. How'd they get to be cliches? :confused:I agree. And still others seem to me more like famous examples rather than cliches. Just 'cause a single famous book or series uses a plot device, characterization, etc. doesn't make that thing a cliche. I'd be curious to see the same list with examples given of books, movies, etc. that employ each cliche...

[austenandrews]

The list does seem to be quite media-centric.

[Curufea]

Okay, you guys have defined the problem. Let me suggest the solution-

We write our own list.

Who wants to start?

[austenandrews]

1. A Dark Lord is on the rise.

[Curufea]

2. A prophecy foretells of the doom of the Dark Lord.

[Chuckg]

3. When the Dark Lord attempts to forestall the prophecy, he will instead set in motion the events needed to fulfill it.

[keithcurtis]

4. A generally inexperienced person with no history of adventure will feature prominently in fulfilling this prophecy.

Keith "Taking notes for his great American fantasy novel" Curtis

[Curufea]

5. The first named member of the opposite sex this character encounters will end up being all of the below-
a) Their true love
b) Blind to their affection - either one to the other, or both at the same time.
c) Realise their love when in a difficult circumstance
d) Be captured by the Dark Lord, or threatened by the same.

[Blue Jogger]

4a. This person will almost always manage to get the mystical whoosywhatsit. Usually there is some utterly contrieved reason why it works for this one person.

Blue "Independent? I don't think so." Jogger

[Curufea]

4a.1 The Magical McGuffin will have no other purpose in its existance but to defeat the Dark Lord. Or will never be used for any other reason.
4a.2 The McGuffin will require a Quest to retrieve, which always involves collecting the correct people for no apparent reason, and travelling across three different climates.

6. Different locations, no matter the climate, will have one unique dominant colour so you can tell they are different locations.

[Steve]

4a.2 The McGuffin will require a Quest to retrieve, which always involves collecting the correct people for no apparent reason, and travelling across three different climates.

4a.3 The Party on the Quest for the McGuffin will have one person in it who will end up betraying the Party.

BTW, has anyone ever read The River of Dancing Gods by Jack Chalker? I vaguely remember that every chapter had a quote from the rulebook that made up the world, a fantasy world of cliches. :D

[Curufea]

That reminds me-
7. Any roleplaying system based on the fiction will not be able to simulate the fiction, or any of the characters in it.

[Enforcer84]

8. characters with no formal combat training will be able to kick unimaginable amounts of *** because they wrestled with their two + older brothers as children. This is even more prevalent with female characters.

[Phil]

Agree about that list not really being cliches at all. Not totally convinced by the start of this one either. Is romance, for example, really a subject for fantasy cliche? Most of the fantasy I've read (and I'll admit it isn't a lot - Tolkien, Conan, Fafyrd & GM, some Ursula le Guin, some others I cant recall) tends to avoid the issue to a great extent.

As a general cinematic convention of the action-genre, yes, it's probably true. But I'm not sure it's fantasy related.

Howabout this though:

9. Black is white, good is good, evil is evil
9a. Except where one or two characters are blatantly self-interested, bad guys with a desire for redemption or good guys with a nasty streak - just to "prove" that there are moral shades of grey in the world, honest.

10. There are few problems that smacking someone or something often enough with a big sword can't fix.

[Mutant for Hire]

Actually, one of the recent Hugo winners was the book "Paladin of Souls" by Lois McMaster Bujold. It is notable in that it breaks just about every cliche about the protagonist.

The protagonist is not a young farmboy/girl, but instead a forty year old widow. She is not of humble birth and ascends to the throne at the start of the book. In fact she starts out the book as the dowager queen of the land, her daughter having recently ascended to the throne, and frankly she's happy to be quit of the palace and has zero desire of ever returning.

Admittedly, it is sort of a sequel to "The Curse of Chalion" but only very loosely. Very few characters from the first book appear in the second book and none of the leading characters of the first book appear, though a few are referenced. The third book in the series is set in the same universe, and there will be two more, though if either of the last two books have anything to do with the previous three, it's rather dubious at best.

[Curufea]

11. Despite what any female non-main character is like, or how she is stereotyped - the female main character will be an uberfemale. Any perceived female stereotypical weakness will not only be a strength in the main character, it will also far exceed the ability of any male.

[Curufea]

Actually, one of the recent Hugo winners was the book "Paladin of Souls" by Lois McMaster Bujold. It is notable in that it breaks just about every cliche about the protagonist.


My least favourite of her books.
The main character is handed help by the Gods every single time she asks for it. There's no struggle - we never need fear for her safety, a God will always be nearby to help her out.

[Mutant for Hire]

My least favourite of her books.
The main character is handed help by the Gods every single time she asks for it. There's no struggle - we never need fear for her safety, a God will always be nearby to help her out.
We must have been reading different books. I got a vastly different impression than that, quite the opposite. In fact the book drives home again and again that the gods are extremely limited in what they can do. All of Ista's rescues were arranged more or less by her own doing or those of her companions.

Ista's first rescue was because she sent the courier girl to race ahead of the approaching army to send for a rescue party. Likewise when she was rescued the second time from the enemy's soldiers, it is because she arranged for troops to be sent from the fortress if she did not return within a period of time. The third time, her patron god made it quite clear that she could be butchered within seconds and he would be powerless to stop it. On the physical level, the gods are nearly powerless.

Only one of Ista's prayers to the gods was actually answered, and that was the issue of second sight. Her other prayers, mostly to be left alone, went unanswered. I'm really struggling to think of any other instances where she prayed and got what she asked for, or when her god saved her from death.

[AliceTheOwl]

Agree about that list not really being cliches at all. Not totally convinced by the start of this one either. Is romance, for example, really a subject for fantasy cliche? Most of the fantasy I've read (and I'll admit it isn't a lot - Tolkien, Conan, Fafyrd & GM, some Ursula le Guin, some others I cant recall) tends to avoid the issue to a great extent.
Seems to me like one mark of good literature is that it avoids cliches, so to say there are exceptions to the cliches doesn't negate them.

[tancred]

BTW, has anyone ever read The River of Dancing Gods by Jack Chalker? I vaguely remember that every chapter had a quote from the rulebook that made up the world, a fantasy world of cliches. :D

There were several Dancing Gods novels. And ALL of them have quotes from the rules. Nearly all of the quotes are funny, and belong in this thread.

[bblackmoor]

Seems to me like one mark of good literature is that it avoids cliches...

It depends. Cliches do not start out that way.

[keithcurtis]

Seems to me like one mark of good literature is that it avoids cliches

If I had a nickel for everytime someone wrote that...

Keith "Hey kids! Spot the double irony!" Curtis

[AliceTheOwl]

:tonguewav

[Dr. Anomaly]

BTW, has anyone ever read The River of Dancing Gods by Jack Chalker? I vaguely remember that every chapter had a quote from the rulebook that made up the world, a fantasy world of cliches. :D
Yup. Things like "Weather permitting, all beautiful women shall be scantily clad." :D

[gamerz123]

Yup. Things like "Weather permitting, all beautiful women shall be scantily clad." :D

Exactly which weather is too inclement for them not to be scantly clad? :D

[Captain Obvious]

Exactly which weather is too inclement for them not to be scantly clad? :D

Given the barbarian chicks I've seen in fantasy art who are wearing fur bikinis in knee-deep snow, not much.

[bblackmoor]

Exactly which weather is too inclement for them not to be scantly clad? :D

"Freezing rain". Everything else is okay.

[Curufea]

Actually - I think "anything likely to lower the temperature of the female such that she is likely to have the indentation of her nipples showing, and thus raising the rating of the comic book".

Although why that changes the rating is beyond me.

[Outsider]

7. Any roleplaying system based on the fiction will not be able to simulate the fiction, or any of the characters in it.




8. characters with no formal combat training will be able to kick unimaginable amounts of *** because they wrestled with their two + older brothers as children. This is even more prevalent with female characters.



Relating to both of these...

7/8 (a) : No matter how many or how easily 'bad guy' grunts are defeated by semitrained or untrained characters in a work of fiction, when said grunts are written up in the roleplaying system, they will be significantly more powerful than normal humans.

[Markdoc]

BTW, has anyone ever read The River of Dancing Gods by Jack Chalker? I vaguely remember that every chapter had a quote from the rulebook that made up the world, a fantasy world of cliches. :D

Yes. It had such a profound impact on me that I resolved to never read another of his books again. Particularly scary was the rules quote "All fantasies shall be trilogies" which showed me where THAT was going.

cheers, Mark

[Thia Halmades]

Good literature doesn't avoid cliches... it... well, in part it sets them up. Who'd heard of a Light Saber prior to Star Wars? No one. But you'd heard of Excalibur, a magical blade pulled from a rock by a child who was destined to be King. Oh wait. It was really a glowing stick inhereted by a kid who's father had betrayed the throne... er, Empire... and... wait, now I'm confused...

My point is that deep down - deep down in places we don't talk about at parties - you want that cliche. You need that cliche. Not because it's a cliche, because it's part of the fundamental story arc. You can't write without it, even if it's unintentional. C'mon; you really think trips to the Underworld were started by the Greeks? The first example is the Descent of Innana, from ... 3,000 BC? Where she (the busty, uber-powered Heroine who happens to be a Goddess) travels down to face off with her Evil Sister who's Somewhat Better Looking to retrieve her husband.

Cliches, by their nature, are a fall-back option for people when they get stuck, then they spin them into something knew. Example: In my homebrew campaign, the Empire is actually where the heroes are from. There ARE forces within the Empire which wear Imperial Blazon but are not on the side of the PCs. Just because I call it an Empire, instead of a Kingdom, did I avoid the cliche?

Course not. Anymore than calling it Capitol Hill makes it any different from any fantasy cliche we could come up with. They're all on the same Hill, but represent diffrent agendas and positions. That's part of my model. The Imperial Family is oblivious, high ranked people in the Senate are in on it, others are fighting back, meanwhile the PCs are in the employ of a SpecOps unit and have no idea half of that is happening in the background.

Sure, 90% of that might be cliche. Maybe all of it. Doesn't mean the story isn't well told or interesting, and nothing was intentionally or directly borrowed from existing lit. Except for a googleplex of Fae myth. ;)

[Markdoc]

Ah but there is fine (and unrecognised by the Dragonlance writers) line between archetypes and cliches.

Tolkein took the (thoroughly archetypal) old, wise magician and made him a distinct character by integrating him into the background story and a certain amount of gentle characterisation. Terry Brooks took the same ageless archetype and turned it into a 2-dimensional rotting hulk of cardboard by being shamelessly derivative.

Both Julian May (in her Pleistocene books) and Robert Holdstock (in The Hollowing) both take the archetype of the Devouring Fool but do *completely* different things with it.

THAT's the difference between archetype and cliché.

We're all playing with the same basic stories - the key is what we do with them.

cheers, Mark

[keithcurtis]

I'd like to plug Terry Pratchett as being the master of turning cliche into something new and interesting. His elves are cool, stylish, popular and at the same time, deadly, self-absorbed total creeps. The first half notes the cliche, the second finds a new interpretation.
Cohen the Barbarian is nearly 100 years old. He is also an unparalleled fighter, sacks temples, rescues maidens, etc. Hey, if he could survive this long in a job so dangerous, he has to be good. The toughest barbarians are the old ones. They've gotten really, really good at surviving. Cliche: Barbarians are great fighters and survivors. Cliche: Old men increase in skill. Both are true, the synthesis is new.

Keith "Go Discworld" Curtis

[Thia Halmades]

Agreed. And agreed. And oh yeah - that too. The only Pratchett I ever read was Good Omens, possibly one of my favorite books ever. I couldn't get into Discworld. I know, I know. Blasphemery. I'm aware. Wasn't my thing. I just generally prefer my imagination to someone else's.

[AliceTheOwl]

True, true . . . I'd forgotten my 100-level writing classes. You CAN use cliches, you can even center your story around them, but you'd darn well better do something new with them if you want people to read the story. Otherwise, it's just another generic story.

Cliches continue to pop up again and again and again for a reason, though - there's a comforting familiarity in them. The reader reads about another plucky hero fighting some evil thing bigger than himself, and they say, "Oh, I know this. It isn't threatening or scary." Then you lure them in with that little twist that they haven't seen before.

[garou]

The armies of evil will number in the hundreds of thousands, possibly the millions. They will be overrunning the world like ants on sugar. The heroes will be a small band of plucky adventurers, or possibly a small army. Nonetheless, despite being rank amateurs and outnumbered by a factor of 10:1 or more, the heroes will win.

[Thia Halmades]

Which is pretty much my point; Mark is saying in simpler terms what I meant. You can toy around with Archetypes all day long; it's when your archetypes become unoriginal charicatures that you end up with cliches. Bleh.

[keithcurtis]

Agreed. And agreed. And oh yeah - that too. The only Pratchett I ever read was Good Omens, possibly one of my favorite books ever. I couldn't get into Discworld. I know, I know. Blasphemery. I'm aware. Wasn't my thing. I just generally prefer my imagination to someone else's.

The unfortunate truth about Discworld is that the first 4-5 books simply aren't that good. The author does not find his voice and metaphor until then. Later Discworld books are each about something: War, Free Speech, Gender Identity,, the Power of Stories (very common theme), etc. They make witty and insightful comment, while wrapping it up in a fun fantasy tale. It's not even allegory, since all the cards ar on the table and nothing is hidden. Satire, pure and simple.

Since you like Interesting Times so much, if you ever get the itch to try Discworld again, may I suggest you try one of the books slightly farther down the publication line: Guards, Guards, Mort, or Wyrd Sisters. His books for younger readers are great too, and Wee Free Men is a delight to read.

For an interesting approach to reading order, this is a cool graphic:
Reading Order (http://www.ie.lspace.org/books/reading-order-guides/the-discworld-reading-order-guide-colour-1-25.gif)

Keith "Discworld Promoter" Curtis

[AliceTheOwl]

Well, dang.

I've read Small Gods and Monstrous Regiment. So apparently I started in the middle. Drat.

[Thia Halmades]

keithcurtis, that certainly explains why I wasn't enjoying it - because it wasn't all that good! Fair enough. I thought the premise was great, but I just couldn't get into any of it. Death will always be generally amusing though, but while I appreciate the endorsement, I don't see myself going back to it. But if I do, I will most assuredly take your advice!

[austenandrews]

Both Julian May (in her Pleistocene books) and Robert Holdstock (in The Hollowing) both take the archetype of the Devouring Fool but do *completely* different things with it.
What's the archetype of the "devouring fool?"

[Thia Halmades]

I can think of a bunch of things it might mean, but I'm unfamiliar with the term. The "Fool" archetype is one most often seen in Shakespeare (King Lear's Jester being the most famous example). The Fool knows all truths, but conveys them in a way which belies his intelligence. I don't know what a Devouring Fool would be.

[Curufea]

I'd just like to point out that Good Omens was written by Terry Pratchett AND Neil Gaiman :)

Neil Gaiman being another excellent writer (Sandman, American Gods, Neverwhere)

[keithcurtis]

I'd just like to point out that Good Omens was written by Terry Pratchett AND Neil Gaiman :)

Neil Gaiman being another excellent writer (Sandman, American Gods, Neverwhere)
Good point though. I always wondered how much was Gaiman, since the style screams Pratchett.

Keith "On my list of favorite books" Curtis

[Curufea]

Depends which bits you like, and which author you talk too :)

[FenrisUlf]

I'd like to plug Terry Pratchett as being the master of turning cliche into something new and interesting. His elves are cool, stylish, popular and at the same time, deadly, self-absorbed total creeps. The first half notes the cliche, the second finds a new interpretation.
Keith "Go Discworld" Curtis

Not to quibble, but that's hardly something new. The Fae in traditonal folklore have always been self-absorbed and even monstrous in their actions. Katherine Briggs goes into far more detail in her works, esp. her Encyclopedia of the Fairies (a really great book, BTW).

Then again, sometimes going back to the actual original folklore can look cliche-busting, simply because no one ever used it. Go and read about what vampires were like in Dracula or Anne Rice, and then read about the near-mindless predatory corpses in Don Calmet or Montague Summers. They're totally different.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Not to quibble, but that's hardly something new. The Fae in traditonal folklore have always been self-absorbed and even monstrous in their actions. Katherine Briggs goes into far more detail in her works, esp. her Encyclopedia of the Fairies (a really great book, BTW).

That was kinda the whole point of Lords and Ladies, the Diskworld book with the biggest focus on elves. (And quite possibly my favorite book in the entire series, rivaled olny by The Hogfather). While it makes fun of gamer cliches, new age touchy feely paganism, goths and a bunch of other fantasy tropes that makes it good reading for most gamers, if you've actually studied old folklore it becomes even more amusing, because you'll spend a LOT of time nodding your head (while laughing) and going "Yup... that's the ticket".

Thia...
You really might want to consider giving Prachett another try. Either of the above books would be a good read, even if you don't follow the rest of the series. One thing Prachett is realy good at is making each book readable without relying on refering to previous books too much.. they all tie together, but can stand alone well.

EDIT: To clarify... it took me SEVERAL years to get into Prachett as well, because I'm one of those purist types who likes to start at the begining of a series and work my way through, and The Light Fantastic, while it had a few amusing bits, didn't really come together for me well. Then I was stuck at an airport and the only fantasy book I could find in the airport store was one of the later Diskworld books, so Ibought it and was TOTALY hooked. I now have an almost complete collection (Witches Abroad and the newest ones are the only ones I'm lacking)

[Curufea]

If you want to read about S&M Sidhe, you can always try Laurell K Hamilton's Mary Gentry series :)

[Susano]

If you want to read about S&M Sidhe, you can always try Laurell K Hamilton's Mary Gentry series :)

Been there, done that, tossed it in the trash. :straight:

[FenrisUlf]

While talking fantasy cliches, has anyone here ever read Diana Wynne Jones' Tough Guide to Fantasyland and its companion novel, Dark Lord of Derkholm? Very barbed send-ups of 'generic' fantasy, and funny as all get-out.

[AliceTheOwl]

I've read Dark Lord of Derkholm. You're right; funny stuff. ^ v ^

[Markdoc]

The armies of evil will number in the hundreds of thousands, possibly the millions. They will be overrunning the world like ants on sugar. The heroes will be a small band of plucky adventurers, or possibly a small army. Nonetheless, despite being rank amateurs and outnumbered by a factor of 10:1 or more, the heroes will win.

There's a nice take on this in Mary Gentle's "Grunts". She writes something like "The Last Battle of Good against Evil is about to begin. The forces of Light are outnumbered, full of headstrong heroes devoid of tactics - but the Light's still going to win. And the Orcs - footsoldiers of evil - are going to die in their thousands. Life's a *****"

She starts off with a cliché, piles more clichés on top (theiving hobbits, alien invasions, etc) and ends up with something novel.

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

What's the archetype of the "devouring fool?"

Sorry - crossthreading. AmadanNaBriona was writing about the "Fatal Fool" - Lady Gregory also referred to him/it as the "devouring fool". Basically the archetype is the dangerous, unpredictable character, who leads other people into perilous (sometimes fatal, but always life-changing) situations. The original Puck is one such character, but færie legends of any sort are replete with them. The Joker in DC comics could be said to be a modern version of the same idea.

Basically it's a variant of the trickster archetype, but more malevolent. Loki instead of Coyote, if you like.

cheers, Mark

[ShinDangaioh]

Elves are always running away from the world.

Unicorns are symbols of nobility and purity.

The past is always better and has more powerful items than the present.
The best smiths/craftsmen died long ago and the current ones do not measrue up.

Elf, dwarf, troll, goblin, centaur, orc IOW the standard fantasy races

[Outsider]

Elves are always running away from the world.


Or one can kill them off. The goal is to keep the pointy eared menaces from overrunning your campaign world!

[Curufea]

A vicious beating around the head with a two-handed Hobbit usually does the trick :)

[Thia Halmades]

Actually, the bulk of my structure was inverting a lot of this standard stuff and going for the juggular in terms of reinterpretation. The Elves would love to run, but can't, because their link to Arcadia was severed during the last Planar War. Woops. Stupid, long lived, pointy eared gits. It's what they deserve, I tell ya.

[Curufea]

My Elves had taken over the entire world creating a golden age for Elves, with Humans as second class citizens. But then an annoying human went and changed the timeline on them ;-p

[bblackmoor]

The past is always better and has more powerful items than the present. The best smiths/craftsmen died long ago and the current ones do not measrue up.

That's not a fantasy cliche: it's one of the central driving myths of the human race. It is only within the past couple of centuries that it has begun to have a serious challenger in the Myth Of The New Discovery. Prior to that, the Myth Of Ancient Knowledge was king (and there are still many who would rather take the word of an ancient compilation of myths than the verifiable discoveries of modern science).

[Curufea]

You forgot to add-
Odin!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Old Man]

Regardless of the fantasy setting's theology (or lack thereof), demons exist. These demons are always pretty easy to summon and next to impossible to control.

[Old Man]

Everything is fine, dandy, and low magic until Pug shows up.

[Curufea]

Regardless of the fantasy setting's theology (or lack thereof), demons exist. These demons are always pretty easy to summon and next to impossible to control.

This cliché I'm actually having fun with at the moment. Precisely because it is so well known, and my demons aren't demons. Which the PCs will figure out soon.

[bblackmoor]

Regardless of the fantasy setting's theology (or lack thereof), demons exist. These demons are always pretty easy to summon and next to impossible to control.

I happen to like this cliche, actually. And they aren't always demons, per se: in Jonathan Strange And Mr. Norrell (http://www.blackgate.net/blog/index.php?s=norrell), they're fairies/sidhe. Or would that be considered a twist?

[Thia Halmades]

Well, again, we're dealing in terms of archetypes, and this is somewhat Faustian; you can always call on the service of the Devil - it's getting the tricky bastitch to do what you want.

[Basil]

Any villain with a scar on her/his face will wear a mask that:
A) covers as little as possible while both:
B) covering the scar AND
C) encircling both eyes.