Patriots/Flag Suits (Who plays em?)

[Hermit]

The Patriot Archetype has been fairly controversial. Some debate has gone on if it should even be an archetype. After all, it pretty much has to include elements of other archetypes in it. Patriots are archetypes, to quote the Champions Genre book, "Only in a symbolic sense" but symbolism, as it goes on to say, is vitally important.

There are two types of "Patriots" essentially, the flag suit sort... that represent or tie themselves to a region, nation, or qualities there of; and the 'Avatar' sort, where one is the living symbol of something more abstract, such as Justice.

This thread is about the Flag suit sort. :)

I noticed quite a few Cap fans when I got on here, and heard of some red,white and blue (Or other colors for other countries) heroes and this was a pleasant surprise.

So how many of you out there play these guys?

Yes, this is another poll. You can submit multiple answers on this one, IF you do it at the same time.

[Enforcer84]

I rule 100% !


Actually, one of my favorites that I made for an old Marvel Universe game was a skilled normal with supernatrually high presense and leadership ability, a flad suit and took the name American Standard, changed it to Standard Bearer after I found out (to my great embarrassement) that American Standard makes urinals.

[CrosshairCollie]

I've done a few, but their basic outlook on the whole flagsuit deal is best summed up by a bumper sticker I've seen:

"I love my country. I fear my government."

Ergo, the character wasn't a government agent (compare Captain America to U.S.Ajerk ... I mean, Agent, and you see what I mean). He was under no illusions that the dictates of the government were necessarily best for the country, though he didn't intrinsically distrust the government, either. Another old line: "Trust but verify."

[death tribble]

In the Protectors campaign (again not the To Serve and Protect) we ran across Russians like Hammer and Sickle and Canadians using the Maple Leaf as well as the typical American patriot. However the Protectors although British never sported any patriotic ferver inspired costumes. Although Lord above help anyone threatening the Brits...

Second time around I played the British Bulldog. He was a normal common man (a bricklayer) who became a human Bulldog. He sported a Union Jack waistcoat.
It was fun not just due to the patriotic bent but also due to the black and white vision and constantly having to pant to let off heat.

[Doc Democracy]

I designed a flag suit for a Golden Age campaign, he was big dumb brick called the US Male, not rain nor hail nor snow etc etc. Very much fun to play - very old fashioned values about women etc. Very naive about the whole political side of anything.

Fitted into the Golden Age with ease. :-)

[Rage]

I play Patriots, mostly to parody them or mock them hard out.
I made a Captain Republican a couple of days ago...

[Blue]

I've got two.
Uncle Slam, a war veteran with great physical abilities; Currently an NPC for my campaign.
Anthem, A teenage girl who read too much captain america; low-level martial artist, 5-pointed throwing stars, but not much else in the way of offense; however, highly invulnerable to damage. She was my player character in Chaosium's Superworld.

Jingoistically enough, most of my foreign "patriots" are villains. I know that's pretty small minded, it's just how it worked out.

(EDIT: Woohoo! I'm High-Powered superhero now! That means I might last a whole turn against hermit. If I dodged a lot.)

[SuperPheemy]

I've played the Minuteman for a couple of years now. I've enjoyed him so much that I've developed an entire "Minuteman Mythos" starting from about 1912 and extending to the 30th century as different men and women pick up the star-spangled mantle left by their predicessor. As I got beyond the 21st century, "America" became less of a nation, and more of an ideal. Ultimately, the 30th century Minuteman became a champion of Liberty and Freedom in the galaxy based less on the historical realities of the United States, and more on the ideals that were defined in it's creation.

And the Red, White, and Blue outfit was kept in the interest of Tradition.

[Marchwarden]

You know, I'd never thought of it this way, but Marchwarden is a Patriot.

He's here to represent his nation (realm, whatever). He has all the skills and uses all the weapons tradionally associated with his culture. Every word that comes out of his mouth reflects his origins. He peppers his English with bits of his native speech (common trait for non-American patriots). His costume doesn't literally have a "flag", but from the leaf-shaped brooch of his gray cloak to the Two-Trees quiver engraving to the glittering jewel he wears on his brow, he's covered in enough iconography that it might as well include a flag.

["V"]

I liked the quote "I love my country, I fear the government" and it set me thinking.

How about an honest-to-goodness idealistic supertype who, due to that idealism and loyalty to the ethos of their nation, finds themselves unable to stomach the actual day to day political realities of the nation today.

The actions of that individual may well involve striking at what he/she sees as the corruption inherent in the system which will technically make them a villain (and the PCs may well be called upon to take them down)... but the stated ideals of the character could well win them lots of grass-roots support.

Needs developing, I know (it's late!), but it's set me thinking...

One inspiration is William Blake's poem "Jerusalem" which was set to music as a "patriotic hymn" by people who have completely missed the point of it. It's not saying how great and godly Britain is, quite the reverse. It's actually dripping with irony about how far short Britain has fallen from what it could be and declaring defiant resistance against the forces responsible.

I've always liked Mr Blake.

[assault]

Originally posted by "V"
How about an honest-to-goodness idealistic supertype who, due to that idealism and loyalty to the ethos of their nation, finds themselves unable to stomach the actual day to day political realities of the nation today.

The actions of that individual may well involve striking at what he/she sees as the corruption inherent in the system which will technically make them a villain (and the PCs may well be called upon to take them down)... but the stated ideals of the character could well win them lots of grass-roots support.

There is plenty of scope for ethical opposition to most governments, unfortunately, so this kind of character is quite viable. A lot of characters I play exhibit some degree of this kind of thing.

The "real" flagsuits are likely to Hunt characters like this.

One of the easiest ways to get characters involved in this kind of conflict is to use places like Guamanga. If official government policy is to support the rebels against the government, or vice versa, it is easy enough to set the PCs up to support the other side. The portrayal of Guamanga itself in CU doesn't easily support this, but a quick stroke of the pen can fix it enough to work with. Just make one faction or other "flawed but sympathetic", have PRIMUS or some more covert organisation supporting the other side, and there you go.

It's easy enough to locate this kind of situation in Africa, Asia, the Carribean or even the Pacific, if Central America isn't convenient. Or even Eastern Europe or the former Soviet Union, if you prefer...



One inspiration is William Blake's poem "Jerusalem" which was set to music as a "patriotic hymn" by people who have completely missed the point of it. It's not saying how great and godly Britain is, quite the reverse. It's actually dripping with irony about how far short Britain has fallen from what it could be and declaring defiant resistance against the forces responsible.

I've always liked Mr Blake.

You are quite correct about this.

Alan

[Hermit]

Originally posted by "V"


How about an honest-to-goodness idealistic supertype who, due to that idealism and loyalty to the ethos of their nation, finds themselves unable to stomach the actual day to day political realities of the nation today.


Actually, my first Entry to the Name the HERO contest was "Defiant" who was not only hard to kill (Nanobots in your blood stream doing repair are wonderful things) but often went to rallies and protests believing in excercising the rights of free speech etc.

[Supreme]

I played a character named "Banner" who's secret ID was me (I was 19 at the time). He was one of my favorites to play, and a favorite amongst my fellow players. I think they sort of considered him a moral anchor for the group. After he died (I wasn't such a smart player back then) one of the other players adopted a CVK in Banner's honor. I always thought this was strange since Banner never had a CVK. Later I threw them all for a loop when it was my turn to run a campaign in my own world and had Banner show up as a major villain. His powers were more or less modelled on Superman (with lightning bolts in place of Heat Vision). That's when I discovered that I really like playing bricks with X-Ray vision.

[MarkusDark]

When I have played 'patriotic' types in the past, it was amazing how creative the 'other players' got to get me out of the room so they could 'talk' to the villians that were just captured.

[Karma]

If I were ever to play a patriot it would be of the 'Avatar of a Concept' sort. I just can't stand flagsuits. They give me the creeps (one reason why I never buy Captain America or Avengers comics usless theirs a 'guest star' I like). I'm always waiting for them to take that oh so small step to 'My Country Right or Wrong' fanaticism. In fact that was pretty much the sole reason I voted for Ironclad in the Champions vs SAS competition, 'cause the other guy was a flagsuit.

If I were to play a flagsuit he/she would change costumes in protest the minute that his/her countries government did something which was against the original values that the flagsuit stood for (and govenments, being what they are, they generally do that), since he/she would no longer wants to be associated with a country who would sacrifice their core values (either that or the govenment would strip the flagsuit of his/her 'right to wear the flag' for not supporting them).

Either way the charater would become a 'Concept Avatar' instead of a flagsuit with the 'Concept' being the true values of his/her country, as opposed to the country as it was now. (Cap has become one of these in the past, yet has never gone far enough in his protest against the 'sacrifice of American values' IMO)

Anyone who supports a government willing to sacrifice its values is, IMO, by definition a 'flagsuit villian'.

[Hermit]

Well, in the Champions Genre book it does mention the difference between the 'My Country Right or Wrong" patriot(more villainous), and the one who represents it's nobler aspects even when the government isn't being totally noble. I don't see a Nation as merely being it's Government, but I can understand the discomfort such a thing can engender. I know someone who doesn't like playing Batman types for a similar reason, he just can't believe they wouldn't one day cross the line.

[Rage]

Originally posted by Karma
If I were ever to play a patriot it would be of the 'Avatar of a Concept' sort. I just can't stand flagsuits. They give me the creeps (one reason why I never buy Captain America or Avengers comics usless theirs a 'guest star' I like). I'm always waiting for them to take that oh so small step to 'My Country Right or Wrong' fanaticism. In fact that was pretty much the sole reason I voted for Ironclad in the Champions vs SAS competition, 'cause the other guy was a flagsuit.

If I were to play a flagsuit he/she would change costumes in protest the minute that his/her countries government did something which was against the original values that the flagsuit stood for (and govenments, being what they are, they generally do that), since he/she would no longer wants to be associated with a country who would sacrifice their core values (either that or the govenment would strip the flagsuit of his/her 'right to wear the flag' for not supporting them).

Either way the charater would become a 'Concept Avatar' instead of a flagsuit with the 'Concept' being the true values of his/her country, as opposed to the country as it was now. (Cap has become one of these in the past, yet has never gone far enough in his protest against the 'sacrifice of American values' IMO)

Anyone who supports a government willing to sacrifice its values is, IMO, by definition a 'flagsuit villian'.

So your saying Cap is a Villain?

[TheImperialKhan]

I played my flagsuited character appropriately named Patriot for a number of years both before and later after he got his powers. He started as a JI strong-jawed hero and I played him that way for a while then the campaign ended and he was later ressurected for a very short-lived Golden Age campaign before being set aside again until I brought him into the campaign I was plying in as replacement second character. At that time I drew heavily on the Cap backstory from Heroes Reborn to cover the years inbetween and to flesh him out some.

Had a lot of fun with him. I put him up on the boards about a year ago. I don't want to clutter the thread up so here's the link to him at my website if you want to take a look:

http://www.geocities.com/blademaster01757/patriot.html

[majorvictory]

First off, big thanks to Hermit for giving me a reason to post for the first time in a couple of weeks. By looking at my "avatar", it's pretty obvious that I'm into the patriotic character type. My character is Vanguard. Strong, fast, very durable, skilled in MA. He's defintely more of a believer in the "dream" than in the g'vment. I resisted playing a patriot for a long time, thinking it was a cheesy concept. However, as I've gotten older, I've realized there's a lot of value in having a character who believes in something and is willing to represent that point of view. Also, my great love of Captain America had something to do with it. He does wear the red, white, and blue, though not necessisarily a "flag" costume.

[Nucleon]

I GM a lot more often than I play, and I have several Flag Suits, always of other countries or ethnic groups (I guess I want some distance).

Often they entered the campaign as cheesy half-serious relief, but soon they got the most attention from my players, who first appreciated the archetype, then I noticed my players actually cared for them! The supported them in fights, and looked up to them in roleplay, immediatly assuming they were some leaders.

What this is telling Nucleon is this; Our generation not only need, but actually want principles. We want to believe in societal ideals again.

Ah, but this is only Nucleon's humble Immortal opinion...

[Hermit]

Originally posted by majorvictory
First off, big thanks to Hermit for giving me a reason to post for the first time in a couple of weeks. By looking at my "avatar", it's pretty obvious that I'm into the patriotic character type. My character is Vanguard. Strong, fast, very durable, skilled in MA. He's defintely more of a believer in the "dream" than in the g'vment. I resisted playing a patriot for a long time, thinking it was a cheesy concept. However, as I've gotten older, I've realized there's a lot of value in having a character who believes in something and is willing to represent that point of view. Also, my great love of Captain America had something to do with it. He does wear the red, white, and blue, though not necessisarily a "flag" costume.

Welcome, :)
and I agree that as I get older, the idealists appeal more and more. I've always loved Cap, but in my youth sneered at Superman. Now I find myself admiring him and liking him more. He really takes a lot of #$#$ while trying to hold true to his ideals.

[zornwil]

I wasn't sure how to answer the poll because as a player I've never played or created flag archetypes but as a GM I have done a small number. My favorite was the Russian heroine Red Dyke (forgive the political incorrectness, she was a direct adaptation of Bob Burden's character in the early Flaming Carrot and that was her exact name per him) in my former campaign as her character developed a lot from what was intended as a 1-shot 2-dimensional sort.

[assault]

Originally posted by Hermit
Welcome, :)
and I agree that as I get older, the idealists appeal more and more. I've always loved Cap, but in my youth sneered at Superman. Now I find myself admiring him and liking him more. He really takes a lot of #$#$ while trying to hold true to his ideals.

The characters I play (as a player) are invariably idealists, and never patriots.

Unsurprisingly, a lot of them are little more than one step away from becoming "villains". All freedom fighters are terrorists in someone's eyes...

Alan

[Doctor Agenda]

DC has a politically-oriented character who strikes at the corruption of government and the "elites": Anarchy. By no means a flagsuit, he still tries to live up to his political ideals (anarcho-capitalist?) to the point of embodying them.His main weapons are brilliance and chutzpah (he has Boom Tube technology, and I think he stole it from Darkseid). I think he falls somewhere in the Patriot-Avatar continuum.