Avatars: The -other- Patriots

[Hermit]

No poll this time.
(I can hear the collective sigh of relief :) )
Just curiousity and concept ideas.

What 'non flagsuit' patriot concepts (or Avatar) concepts come to mind?
Some seem obvious to a super hero genre.
Justice
Truth
Courage
Honor

etc
Then there are things like Dadism and so on. :)
Any other good ones you folks have to share?

[Pattern Ghost]

The avatar of.... smackdown!

And toads. Same guy.

[Lord Liaden]

"Vengeance" is a classic one for many darker campaigns - pay back wrongs suffered, often with a mosaic theme.

"Order" would make sense for some heroes: uphold the law, maintain the status quo.

"Liberty" is a concept with strong resonance to Americans. The Mutants and Masterminds character "Lady Liberty" from Freedom City has a whole suite of powers relating thematically to "liberty" and "freedom."

It may sound strange for a combat-oriented genre like superheroes, but "Peace" would make for an interesting hero: passive defenses like Missile Deflection or Desolid, or "peacemaking" Powers such as Entangle, Mind Control or various Drains.

[Enforcer84]

Courage : a 'Man without fear' so to speak...

Honor

both of these guys sound like Martial Artists to me.

How about: Life? I have made a Green Lantern type character who'se abilies stemmed from the manipulation of his own life force...

[Crimson Arrow]

As Hermit did not limit the question to hero patriots, you have concepts such as Death, Anarchy and Chaos. Some comics companies might have a Pain Patriot. Such a character might even think it's better to receive than give. The Wonder Woman spoof character in one of the Marshal Law stories would be an example of this and the series had other sadistic and/or masochistic characters. More of a Dark Champions concept, I'd think.

A Religion based Patriot could be good or evil (or both, by turns). There have been cult type villains before, but I seem to recall a DC character called the Seraph, who had some Biblical items of power.

[Lord Liaden]

Ah, the Seraph... a member of the Global Guardians, IMHO a rather underrated collection of international supers (although some of their members did make it into the Justice League). IIRC the Seraph had the strength of Sampson, wore the mantle of Elijah and carried the Rod of Aaron.

On the religious villain front, Marvel had the Crusader, whose faith in his extremist interpretation of Christianity granted him superhuman power against those he thought were an affront to that faith.

Come to think of it, comics have a few other characters who could be considered avatars of concepts in their own right. The Hulk is practically the avatar of Rage (our own resident kiwi notwithstanding ;) ), while Juggernaut embodies the Irresistable Force. Marvel's Collective Man can draw on the combined strength of all the people of China. Eclipso is quite literally the "dark side" of human nature, while Ghost Rider is after all the Spirit of Vengeance. The "Nabu" version of Dr. Fate was a Lord of Order, and Hawk and Dove derived their powers and personalities from Chaos and Order, respectively.

As a side note, the old Champions adventure Wrath of the Seven Horsemen introduced a great gimmick for generating this kind of character - the Worm Scepter. This was an artifact of Lovecraftian Elder Gods with the power to draw out the true inner "aspect" of a person and make it manifest, transforming that person into his or her aspect. The resulting being often developed tremendous power, but a consequently narrow personality dominated by a single trait. This was how the Horsemen were created. There was no controlling what aspect would appear, though, or whether it would be a positive or negative one; that was entirely based on the person affected.

[death tribble]

Lord Liaden makes the point perfectly.

Wrath of the Seven Horseman allowed people to assume avatars although they had to kill Terror.

And the point about the Hulk and Juggernaut ? Never thought about it like that but thinking about it, it makes perfect sense.

I had a character villain called Vengeance who was a superhero assassin. His mother and father were crippled by heroes and he avenged them by killing superheroes.

Hermit's raising of the topic isa useful reminder of what else we can do with names and themes.

[winterhawk]

I realized reading this thread that the Avatar concept resembles the way the gods of ancient mythos were representative of certain aspects of life (the sun, war, death, etc.). In my 4th edition campaign, I had several offspring of elder gods that were avatars of aspects of modern living including the sons of Ares: Trevor, the Demigod of Senseless Violence & Mr. Lung, the God of Gunfire. I also had Chopin, the son of Thoth and the Demigod of the Internet.

I was also in a campaign with a character called Revenant, a Crow/Spectre like character that represented the souls of the unavenged dead.

[Hermit]

One could also base some villains on the seven deadly sins:
(Someone correct me if I'm wrong on the classics)
Envy
Gluttony
Greed
Lust
Pride
Sloth
Wrath

or the Seven Virtues (Not nearly as sure on these, but traditionally I think they are)
Charity
Faith
Fortitude
Hope
Justice
Prudence
Temperance

Man, wouldn't you just love to see what Hope's oratory skill would be? :)

I've also noticed there are basically three types of 'Avatars' really.
1) The Being Manifest- The symbol or force itself is given form, the best example that springs to mind is 'Sayge' a living embodiment of Truth in the Marvel Universe. Death and Eternity as well. It has no mortal component...and may have trouble understanding anything outside of that.
2) The fusion of ideal and flesh- The concept or force has claimed or chosen a being to infuse with. Captain Marvel of SHAZAM style might fit here.
3) Taking on the garb of- The most common in the comic books when you think about it. Some versions of Batman are a man seeking to litterally BECOME Justice (Guilty are brought to punishment, Innocent are safe), even at the risk of his own identity. There is nothing mystical about this, unless you wish to get philosophical about the spiritual significance of putting on a mask. In the end, it's just a mortal being; A very focused mortal. :)

[SuperPheemy]

Take a flip through Steve Jackson Games' In Nomine sometime, Celestial beings in that mileu eventually earn the authority of words. Thus, you could become the Angel of Mercy, or the Demon of Fury (or the Angel of Fury, and the Demon of Mercy for that matter...) The game goes into great detail over how becoming Word Bound affects the character. Because the word itself becomes a fundamental part of the Celestial's very being, they run the risk of putting the advancement of their Word above their duty to Heaven or Hell.

[Lord Liaden]

You know, I have a feeling that once Scott Bennie's Gestalt setting e-book comes out, the room for discussion on this subject is going to get a whole lot bigger. ;)

["V"]

An avatar of anarchy or discordianism could make quite an interesting npc. Leaving those around unsure whether he/she is a hero or villain, focussing instead on shaking the campaign world out of its preconceptions and complacencies (both good and bad).

ahd

[Catacomb]

Rage!

[Karma]

Of course even more 'saintly' concepts could be villainous.

Taken to it's logical extreme an Avatar of Liberty would be destroying prisons and freeing prisoners of the state and defending the rights of people to commit any act they wanted (Liberty=Freedom=The right to do whatever you like (one reason why Freedom is a demonic word in In Nomine)

Justice, of course, can be villianous. Just look at the Punisher who thinks that he is an 'Avatar of Justice' but is more an 'Avatar of Self-Rightous Violence'.

Charity, when taken to extremes is socialism, and might become a 'Robin Hood' like figure stealing from those with money to give it to the poor (and some people with money are not bad people).

Peace. Just off the top of my head: What would you call someone who destroys (safely) all the WMDs stockpiled by the US for 'defensive purposes' before systematically destroying the countries military capabilities?

Law & Order. Someone who attempts to remove people's free will to create a perfectly ordered society where, for instance, jay walking is a capital crime.

Its always fun to try to go against the 'common belief' when creating Avatars.

I have also created some weird Avatars in my time based on types of people:
Blue shield: Avatar of Police Officers.
Jock: Avatar of Athletic Prowess
Ubernerd: Avatar of Intellectual Prowess.
Misfit: Avatar of Misfits (Head of a group made-up of those who do not fit in due to their powers and abilities (kind of like the Morlocks in Marvel).

[Worldmaker]

Several players in my Guardians campaigns have turned in "avatar" style patriots, including one who is the "incarnation of Japanese giant monster movies" and "the incarnation of anime martial arts".

We've also got twin incarnations, Mercy and Terror, plus an "American Spirit" incarnation, as NPCs.

[Rage]

Originally posted by Catacomb
Rage!

you just piss me off

[wcw43921]

People have said for centuries that Love is the most powerful force there is--so theoretically a superheroic avatar of love could be cosmically powerful, right up there with the Silver Surfer and the Shooter/Windsor-Smith version of Solar, Man of the Atom.

Solar himself could be considered an avatar of Science--its insatiable curiosity, its ability to redefine the universe as we know it, and its tremendous potential for benefit or catastrophe.

[Ranxerox]

Originally posted by Hermit
Then there are things like Dadism and so on. :)
Any other good ones you folks have to share?

Just to ignore the rest of your post and focus annoyingly on a single thing you brought up - Dadaism. The Champions campaign book mentions in passing the avatar of dadaism Avant Guard.

Has anyone out there given any thought to writing up this intriguing character? If so, please share. I don't think that my boringly linear mind is up to the task and am interested in other peoples ideas.

[Ranxerox]

It looks like I killed this thread when I posted 3 days ago. I do that a lot:o

Sorry. Please continue with the thread as thosugh I had never posted.

[Proemial]

Via Dictionary.com
"Dadaism: A European artistic and literary movement (1916-1923) that flouted conventional aesthetic and cultural values by producing works marked by nonsense, travesty, and incongruity."

So... Uh. How about Foxbat on that one?

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Proemial
Via Dictionary.com
"Dadaism: A European artistic and literary movement (1916-1923) that flouted conventional aesthetic and cultural values by producing works marked by nonsense, travesty, and incongruity."

So... Uh. How about Foxbat on that one?

At first glance, there are a lot of parallels, but Foxbat is unaware that what he does is nonsensical. Dadaism implies a conscious incongruity.

IMO a much closer analogy to Avant Guard would be "The Idiot King" from the Dark Champions villain compendium Underworld Enemies by Chris Avellone: a brilliant, unpredictable loon in a clownish outfit, using bizarre gadgets and flunkies to commit crimes ranging from "city-wide pranks to cataclysmic threats."

"Despite the seeming foolishness of his crimes and pranks, the Idiot King's goal behind every crime is to make the city question their world and interact with it. He wants the world to wake up, to think and to evolve.' (UE p. 15)

The Idiot King is normally a mentally-impaired patient in an asylum, but sometimes inexplicably manifests this other persona and enhanced intellect, which he calls "divine inspiration." It wouldn't be a stretch to treat this as actual inspiration by the Spirit of Dadaism. ;)

[Crimson Arrow]

Perhaps Avant Guard uses the fish as a weapon! Monty Python and surrealist jokes aside, there is a fish listed as a weapon in one of the Rolemaster supplements (it is a joke weapon, along with Nodwick). Maybe it's a swordfish (ducks).

[altamaros]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
The Idiot King is normally a mentally-impaired patient in an asylum, but sometimes inexplicably manifests this other persona and enhanced intellect, which he calls "divine inspiration." It wouldn't be a stretch to treat this as actual inspiration by the Spirit of Dadaism. ;)
That could be an interesting adventure/campaign plot. Something like that has been done in a serie named "Arcanum" (Image) a few years ago. The armageddon/mahapralaya/ragnarok/etc... is about to come; the differents avatars/concepts/archetypes/atavisms/etc... choose vessels/inheritors of the mantle/champions/etc... for the battle to come : the heroes and villains.

only problems :
- some villains are now on the "good" side; some heroes are now on the "bad" side
- all powers are leveled up. knowing that they will fight each other there could imply a lot of collateral damage.
- Some "rivalries" might come ("Me alone deserved to be the Avatar of Modesty !!!".
- nobody thought about giving informations to the new avatars.
- etc .. (read : "anything vicious that could come in a GM's mind")
- all the questions about "the day after the last judgement"

[Uncle Kudzu]

Nice thread. I'm starting a campaign for a group that wants to be villains, and the few initial character concepts I've received seem to fit well with a 'seven deadly sins' theme. The discussion here so far has been helpful - thanks to all who have participated. I'd already begun looking at 'In Nomine' before reading the earlier post about it - good stuff. The player characters will have already been poster-children for their respective sins before coming together as a group. Greed and Sloth are spoken for (and are in good hands from what I've seen so far), and I've seen two potential builds for Rage (personally I was thinking a dark version of Alpha Flight's Shaman would work well, but I liked one player's idea for a Speedster that was in a constant rage due to how slow everything else around him is moving). The players are not limited to choosing from just the main 7, but it seems to be the way this is forming. Lots yet to do...

- Uncle K.

[Steve]

The Hero System setting book Gestalt is about the best thing I've seen for doing a campaign based on avatars of concepts. I really recommend it.

[kahuna's bro]

"
It may sound strange for a combat-oriented genre like superheroes, but "Peace" would make for an interesting hero: passive defenses like Missile Deflection or Desolid, or "peacemaking" Powers such as Entangle, Mind Control or various Drains.

or dc comics chracter the DOVE from the HAWK and the DOVE dove was an avatar of the lords of order whilwe hawk was the avatar of the lords of chaos

[Uncle Kudzu]

The Hero System setting book Gestalt is about the best thing I've seen for doing a campaign based on avatars of concepts. I really recommend it.

...thanks for the recommendation. Looked decent, so I picked it up through RPGNow...

- Uncle K.

[Lord Liaden]

Just to ignore the rest of your post and focus annoyingly on a single thing you brought up - Dadaism. The Champions campaign book mentions in passing the avatar of dadaism Avant Guard.

Has anyone out there given any thought to writing up this intriguing character? If so, please share. I don't think that my boringly linear mind is up to the task and am interested in other peoples ideas.

Just so you'll know, Avant Guard received a full 5E write-up in Villains, Vandals, And Vermin. I would expect him to be updated to 6E in Champions Villains.

In short, Avant Guard is a duplicating, shapeshifting, teleporting, gadget-using lunatic of unknown origin and completely unpredictable behavior, often absurd or comical, sometimes deadly serious and violent.

[Hawknight]

"the old Champions adventure Wrath of the Seven Horsemen introduced a great gimmick for generating this kind of character "

This was the way I created Libertyman. A Primus Silver Avenger, he was hit with the scepter's ray and a radiation blast that caused him to powerup without being controlled by Terror. He had a total Patriot slant, like Captain America in the '70s, and while he always backed up his teammates or guest star heroes, he lectured about democracy, freedoms and what you had to do to earn them. Was a hoot to piss off my fellow players and got me alot of roleplaying experience points.

[Ranxerox]

Just so you'll know, Avant Guard received a full 5E write-up in Villains, Vandals, And Vermin. I would expect him to be updated to 6E in Champions Villains.

In short, Avant Guard is a duplicating, shapeshifting, teleporting, gadget-using lunatic of unknown origin and completely unpredictable behavior, often absurd or comical, sometimes deadly serious and violent.

Thanks, I own that one. I had forgotten that I made a request for write-up for the character here, but his inclusion did play a role in my buying the book.

[Doctor Agenda]

I love Gestalt, it was a great inspiration to my Alts campaign, but I would really love to see a The Ultimate Avatar book.

[Clonus]

Most of the biggest superheroes have attached symbolism and could be regarded as an "avatar".

For example Iron Man stands for American technology and industry. Superman is basically DC's Captain America, even though he's technically not a flagsuit. Wonder Woman is Woman. Batman is Fear of the Dark. Oddly enough though, Spiderman doesn't really fit. He's not really the Avatar of Being A Dweeby Teenager People Pick On.

[JmOz]

Spidey is the "everyman makes good"

and point of order, should not Cap be compared to Supes, not the otherway around?

[palaskar]

Well, I'm kinda surprised that these virtues were left out:

humilty
courage, truth, love
honor, sacrifice, justice
spirituality

they're from Ultima's ....

wait for it....

The Avatar series of Ultima games

On a more series, I think these virtues could be reworked into something that doesn't steal from RIchard Garriot.

[TheQuestionMan]

Gestalt: The Hero Within by Blackwyrm Games (Champions)
http://www.ezhero.com/Gestalt.htm


Gestalt: Architects of Change by Blackwyrm Games (Champions) (In Development)
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72615

[Review] Gestalt: The Hero Within
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/60560-Review-Gestalt-The-Hero-Within


Cheers


QM

[Ghost Archer]

Ghost Archer: "Knew an avatar, once upon a time . . . never again."