Super hero showdown Wolverine vs. Nightcrawler

[Catacomb]

Because of the thrashing Wolvie took in the favorite X-Men poll I decided to see who you guys think would win in a throwdown.

[MarkusDark]

Not knowing the full extent of NC's 'porting abilities, I would have to go with him. The idea of grab-port-drop into something yuky is there. Or simply port overhead-touch-port down 2 feet to bury him waist high before he would get a swing in.

[Jeff T.]

Well, I think Nightcrawler is a more interesting character, but Wolverine easily wins a one-on-one fight in my opinion. Even with 'crawlers nasty teleportation tricks.

[Catacomb]

Yeah...I'm well aware that Kurt and Wolvie are more than mere friends. Kurt has given Wolverine advice on everything from women to morality and in that way I see him more as a spiritual 'father figure' to Logan than a brother. I just want to know who you guys think would win if the throwdown occured, barring loyalties. BTW I think Wolvie wins going away running.

[TheTemplar]

True, they have a strong friendship, and it's a cool thing to see, given the rough edges of Wolverine's character. It gives him quite a bit of depth to see him show that rare emotion..well..other than anger, of course.

However, in this purely hypothetical sitch, I'd have to say Advantage, Nightcrawler. That teleport is just tooooooo much for even Wolvie to keep up with.

Now, what would be NEAT would be Rogue vs. Nightcrawler...oh, the continuous Teleport-Fu.....

-T

[Derek Hiemforth]

It would be a war of attrition. I don't think Wolverine could hit Nightcrawler if Kurt was determined not to get hit. The question would be, can Kurt avoid Logan's claws long enough to pull some teleportation nastiness, or does he tire out before then, allowing Logan to skewer him?

It could go either way, but I guess I'd put my money on Nightcrawler.

[Gary]

If the terms of the fight are that neither side holds anything back, I'd favor Nightcrawler. His unbelievable agility and teleportation can do some nasty stuff to Wolverine such as dropping Wolvie into liquid cement or stuff like that. Plus, if he gets tired, he can simply bamf away and rest.

If the two of them are holding back even a little, Wolverine wins because he's unkillable unless Nightcrawler pulls out all stops.

[Superskrull]

I'm going with 'crawler on this one. He's been shown in the comics to have a VERY selective teleportation attack. He is perfectly capable (physically if not morally) of taking only bits and peices of an opponent such as a large chunk of Magus, Warlock's star-rending poppa, Sentinel bits or taking John Proudstar's finger off in Age of Apokalypse. As he's also been shown once to have missjumped and wound up with his feet in concrete, he could simply pull a 'Shadowcat and appear with a rebar sticking through Wolvie's skull.

[Jeff T.]

Awww, c'mon guys. I think we're seeing more 'Crawler favoritism here. I think the 'fuzzy elf' is a cooler character, but Wolverine wins the fight. He's been ripped to shreds a billion times. He can't be stopped.

[Catacomb]

It's true...and Wolverine, despite being 'slower' has popped Spidey. If Kurt got near him Logan would get in one shot, and that's all he would need.

[Agent.0.Fortune]

Sometimes, in comics, like game systems, if you get a good enough roll you will hit. If Nightcrawler were foolish enough to tangle with Wolverine long enough, eventually he would get sliced.

The only way to avoid it is to take out the elemet of chance. For instance Wolverine could never take out Shadowcat (although she would have the same problem) because he just can't hit, no matter how high he rolls.

Some of the examples of Nightcrawlers leathality are subject to writers interpretation, it could be that he does posess those powers, but even with a code vs. killing its hard to justify not using them more frequently, I suspect it was just one session too many in the opium den for the writers.

[Morningstar]

Superskrull, Wasn't it actually Warren Worthington's finger he took off?
Nightcrawler could only win if they let him be that nasty. Just take the head off and that is it. Remember the first time he ever ported with someone was Wolvie, and it knocked them both out. Nightcrawler has gotten much better at it, but he has never shown, that I am aware of, that he can selectively make it easier on him but not his passenger. If he could he would be devistating without being deadly.

BTW about Shadowcat, she never does it to opponents but she has been halfway in a wall and still been able to phase out a friend and pull them through. Which means she can attack while desolid. She could then just let her opponent go while they are half merged with something. She did it to THOR once when he had a Juggernaut illusion on him and sneaked up behind him and planted him waste deep in the earth, He "unmerged" his molecules with superpower #4,5697 of his do-anything hammer though. She is a classic case of "should be more powerful than she is if they would let her use her powers.

[Killer Shrike]

Interestingly, the Alternate-World Nightcrawlers have always been deadlier than mainstream Kurt. The Nazi-Kurt frex that was shown in Excalibur was very nasty, and IIRC, didnt one of the alternate world Kurts kill Deadpool by T-Porting his head off?

If allowed to cut loose he's easily one of the most powerful of the X-Men.

[Mr Mole]

Hmmm... Thought long and hard on this one...:rolleyes:

Assuming a totally neutral environment which didn't lend any advantage to either of them, I'd have to go with Wolverine, much to my regret.

As has been pointed out already, Nightcrawler is VERY agile... but Wolverine is no slouch in that department either. With his claws, healing factor, animal senses, fighting skill, and nasty disposition, I believe Wolverine has an advantage. If we assume he has the adamantium skeleton and claws, then he's even tougher to hurt.

Give Nightcrawler the element of surprise and a weapon, and his odds improve. Take away the adamantium on top of those and it's probably about an even match. Give Nightcrawler a terrain advantage and, all combined, Wolverine is in serious trouble.

Just my two cents worth...:D

[Superskrull]

Originally posted by Morningstar
Superskrull, Wasn't it actually Warren Worthington's finger he took off?
Nightcrawler could only win if they let him be that nasty. Just take the head off and that is it. Remember the first time he ever ported with someone was Wolvie, and it knocked them both out. Nightcrawler has gotten much better at it, but he has never shown, that I am aware of, that he can selectively make it easier on him but not his passenger. If he could he would be devistating without being deadly.

Nah, I'm pretty sure it was Proudstar. It was in the X-calibre storyline where Proudstar was helping ferry mutants to the Savage Land via a mutant Underground railroad. He got snotty with Kurt and being the kind of momma's boy you get with Mystique as yer mom, the elf grabbed his finger and bamfed. Kurt was a real jerk in AOA. As far as I recall, Angel was running a bar and info brokerage in Manhatten or whatever the Big A had renamed it.

You're right though. For all intents and purposes, Nightcrawler seems to have some NND attack when he multiports people and he's knocked people for a loop several times with it, since he handles the strain better. He might also be given a Susceptability when porting heavy loads as he seems pretty wiped out and End loss seems less likely than a quick does of multiple d6 Stun loss


BTW about Shadowcat, she never does it to opponents but she has been halfway in a wall and still been able to phase out a friend and pull them through. Which means she can attack while desolid. She could then just let her opponent go while they are half merged with something. She did it to THOR once when he had a Juggernaut illusion on him and sneaked up behind him and planted him waste deep in the earth, He "unmerged" his molecules with superpower #4,5697 of his do-anything hammer though. She is a classic case of "should be more powerful than she is if they would let her use her powers. [/QUOTE]
No kidding. Back in X-men Vs Micronauts, Karza was killing people casually by leaving them as part of the walls and floors while his mind was trapped in her body. she's also pulled some sneaky moves like killing Sentinels by riding inside Colossus while he swings debris she keeps phased til they put it in the center of the Sentinel's torso. They'd previously used that little trick on Nimrod letting Colossus rip into his body while Kitty's tech-killing trick kept him disoriented.
She's apparently got a huge weight limit on her UVO Desolid too, since she phased a car that some convicts were escaping in, leaving them to fly out and hit the ground. The GM in me hates seeing characters that only seldom use their full and obvious power scale. Makes it real annoying to try to write them up.

[Superskrull]

Hmm. I'll admit that I tend to veiw these polls as intellectual exercises where I figure what I'd do with these sets of powers and stats. As far as Nightcrawler goes, it's always seemed to me that his lethality is hampered by his strong morals. That's certainly not a bad thing, but I always seem to see ways to win that the characters/writers never use. Nightcrawler never seems to pull anything clever on average, even if it's just exploiting the fact that with a quick touch and port you and he can be a mile or so up in the air, that he can selectively take pieces of you or even that I'm to believe he can routinely dodge machinegun bursts and outmaneuver anyone outside of Spiderman only to be popped by what I see as characters with no chance of winning outside of bad writing. I'm not knocking Wolverine. I know he's incredibly fast and lethal and he and Kurt know exactly how the other guy fights. Frankly in a fight like Logan vs Kurt, no holds barred, one of the two is going to be dead near instantly. I just like Kurt better.
I think it's mostly that I'm usually irritated by the writing of Claremont where whatever character is his current pet is going to win. I see things like a powerless Storm beating Cyclops, Rogue spontaneously manifesting superspeed and catching machinegun fire like she was a Kryptonian or Viper having a handblaster capable of burning a hole through someone like Rogue's level of invulnerability an issue or so after Binary punches Rogue into orbit and merely pisses her off. Things like this or deciding the Summers are apparently genetically capable of leading mutant teams makes me froth with rage.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Superskrull
I see things like a powerless Storm beating Cyclops

That whole story was just...WRONG! What a disrespect to Cyclops.:mad:

[Fedifensor]

Remember that fancy skeleton of Wolverine's? As seen when Nightcrawler has tried to teleport part of a target (I believe it was a super-sentinel, but it's been a while since I've read X-Men), the tougher the target, the more stress on Nightcrawler. Basically, Nightcrawler may not survive teleporting part of Wolverine away, even if he can get over the psych lims that would prevent it.

If you take into account the entire character (including psych lims of each), Wolverine wins every time.

[Morningstar]

Remember that fancy skeleton of Wolverine's? As seen when Nightcrawler has tried to teleport part of a target (I believe it was a super-sentinel, but it's been a while since I've read X-Men), the tougher the target, the more stress on Nightcrawler. Basically, Nightcrawler may not survive teleporting part of Wolverine away, even if he can get over the psych lims that would prevent it.

If you take into account the entire character (including psych lims of each), Wolverine wins every time.[QUOTE]
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If he can teleport the whole Wolverine without killing himself, why would part of him hurt him at all? He has teleported both of them numerous times. I just don't think these abilites get used enough that they qualify, but if he has them he is very deaadly. What kind of defense would stop it? Power Deffense? Or is it just a KA that has to hit?

Without the rarely used fringe abilities of teleporting parts or exhausting opponents, I dont think Nightcrawler can even land blows that would hurt Wolverine. He has never shown to be a heavy hitter and it takes someone with exceptional ability or superhuman ability to beat wolverine down with blows.

[Mutant for Hire]

Kurt Wagner is one of these guys who I think really needs an enchanted sword and probably a buckler to complement the sword. Of course being a nice guy most of the time he'd use the flat of the blade and hit people with the buckler.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Starlord
That whole story was just...WRONG! What a disrespect to Cyclops.:mad:

I would agree, it was just the writer trying to make Storm 'look cool', the fix was in. However, to be fair, Cyclops was pretty messed up (mental wise) at the time.

Besides, on the flip side, I still enjoy when Scott had to take out the other X-Men hunting him in the Danger room thanks to Mastermind.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
I've always said - give Angel an Adamantium baseball bat, and Kurt even a normal cutlass (preferably with one of those big knuckle baskets that are good for clocking bad guys until their teeth pop out), and they'd be two of the most dangerous X-men of all.


The sword and buckler combination is far more effective for Kurt. Especially if it was enchanted or adamantium. A buckler being a small handheld shield lets Kurt use his speed and agility to interpose it between him and shots while he's using his sword.

As for Angel, his power lies behind his ability to dive and get real linear momentum behind his attacks. A blunted lance strikes me as more suited for him than a baseball bat. The bat at right angles to his sweep could knock the weapon out of his hand, mess up his flight path or both.

Of course Angel strikes me as the sort of guy who really needs to use ranged weapons. I don't think he's got the geometry for using a bow and arrow (drawing a bow shoves his wings out of alignment). But something like a crossbow strapped to the wrist might work. The Hawkeye style of 'pelt them with nasty things from a distance' style of fighting.

[Morningstar]

Liek a lot of heroes without an obvious offensive threat, both of these two would be twice as effective if they just had some SHIELD weapons or the like. Imagine Angel or Nightcrawler with Black Widows' Wrist blaster.

As for Angel, I say just let him get captured by Apocalypse again and go back to kicking Wolvie and Sabertooths butts. I liked when he could do move throughs on skyscrapers and fire the razor feathers. I guess I was in the minority though. His new healing thing is interesting though. They made it look like he actually resurrected Jubilee since Phoenix saw no life signs before they even got her back to the base.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
But Kurt is a fencer. He's a swashbucklin' fool. :D A shield might actually slow him a tad, since he's not the blocking type.


Er, you do know where the term 'swashbuckling' comes from, right? And a buckler wouldn't slow Kurt down at all. Those things are designed to be light and manuverable.

And of course there's this vision of Kurt with some SHIELD heavy weapons, sniping down at the crowd while he's stuck to the wall...



Ever hear of the bunt? :D And, a blunted lance would still cause internal bleeding on anyone weaker than the Thing or Collossus.

I thought that was the point. :)

And yes, I liked the powered up Angel. I always think he was somewhat underpowered compared to the other original X-Men.

[DocMan]

Well, The idea of Angel being underpowered kind of depends...

Mostly, it depends on how much he can lift, and how high in the air he is when he drops you.

But since he will be drawing missle fire during combat, it would make a certain amount of sense to be able to return it. Then again, he does have one advantage that our characters don't have... Script writers.

Doc

[Xiss66]

Hmmm... Thought long and hard on this one...:rolleyes:

Assuming a totally neutral environment which didn't lend any advantage to either of them, I'd have to go with Wolverine, much to my regret.

As has been pointed out already, Nightcrawler is VERY agile... but Wolverine is no slouch in that department either. With his claws, healing factor, animal senses, fighting skill, and nasty disposition, I believe Wolverine has an advantage. If we assume he has the adamantium skeleton and claws, then he's even tougher to hurt.

Give Nightcrawler the element of surprise and a weapon, and his odds improve. Take away the adamantium on top of those and it's probably about an even match. Give Nightcrawler a terrain advantage and, all combined, Wolverine is in serious trouble.

Just my two cents worth...:D

Hey man I stumbled apon this convo And i had to enter my info
'caus i had this same debate when x2 came out
considering that this thread is so old i still had to say somthing Exuse me though this is my fist post on these forums this can be fun

Number one Nightcrawler will be the victor for several reasons.
even if wolvie manages to stab him all he has to do is touch him in any way and its over(thats only if NC even ever lets him get close enough playin it deffenssive, he can teleport fast enough to dodge bullets) nightcrawler can teleport enough times to kill him but only make him break a sweat because when NC teleports it drains the life force out of him but he his passengers are a lot more effected.
anotherthing Nc with them swords is a problem, (disreguarding wolvies healing but this can still be a factor like to defend his claws) plus thats three swords one on each arm and tail.
So split second Teleporting and fatal enforced teleporting ,Three swords and agility, and kurts Know how on wolvie its over c'mon now. also jus to add it in there Kurt can teleport 3 miles at atime to the north and south while 2 east and wes alos 3 up and down 3 miles is a strain for him. he can also focus his velocity in different directions like if he falls a good dozen feet he can teleport befor he hist the ground and redirect it when he comes back in a kick horzontally to the skull of and average human and hes dead. not wolvie but this can also be a factor.Lastly if Kurt was sinister enough teleport with Logan and just leave him in the shadow dimension he'll never be seen again. let alone breath oxygen considering the main gas is of sulfer and methane.

sorry for the long post but i love this debate plus theres so much to say
and again sorry for such a late post on an old thread. Thanks guys any one else wanna talk and ressurect this thread or another one i have other face offs for days
Some DC and Marvel not jus DC vs Marvel but some of you guys hit me up Thanks Again

[McCoy]

Excuse me. How many times have Kurt & Logan gone one on one? And how many truckloads of beer has Kurt bought Logan as a result?

Wolvie hold action until Nightcrawler ports into reach, grabs him, swings him like a dead cat making him too disoriented to port, slams him to the ground, follows through with three claws through the heart.

No matter how much we say "no holds barred," Logan will kill, Kurt won't.

[CrosshairCollie]

My complete loathing for the Wolverine "character" forbids me from voting for him. In a playful fight, however, Wolverine wins. In a real fight?

Nightcrawler has a higher DEX than Wolverine, so Wolverweenie doesn't get to hold an action for him. Nightcrawler teleports in, grabs Wolverine and teleports away with his arms. He's still alive, but he's disarmed (rimshot), and his arms will grow back ... just with a regular bone skeleton, no adamantium.

Fight over.

[Vondy]

Its happened in the comics. Wolverine's senses are honed enough to compensate for Kurt's sudden appearances; and while Nightcrawler is a quick and skilled opponent, he's not as skilled as Wolverine. He also doesn't regenerate. The short term advantage may go to Nightcrawler, but the long-term advantages all go to Wolverine. And Wolverine has immense endurance and regenerative abilities that will let him go the full fifteen rounds.

[Libra]

Wolverine and Nightcrawler are pals. They are probably just being mind-controlled and will eventually come to their senses and deliver violence upon the villai who made them fight. But while they fight Wolverine would slice Kurt into Salami. No Question. Psychotic violence beats cunning any day.

[Xiss66]

like i said even though every one MUST side with Logan (not because he is every one fav or nothin) if night NC ports with him once its over plain and simple in a matter or a second or two he's done as a matter of fact if he ports his silly #$% some were off a coast some or something like two miles or three he's done for even if he can swim with his skeleton's weght he'll be two draind to swim back. you cant argue with facts! But the hard part is for him to get close enough with out getting impaled even if he does NC will still port him into a solid wall ending his career.plus wovie has two arms nightcrawler has technacaly three (not as if he would really keep up with the wolverine for long though) but all he got to do is touch that head and its a done deal. wolverines good but cmon his fighting skill can go a long way but wth thats like sayin he can beat magnito (without the bone claws).
he's alwas close combat and kurt can be deadly with a touch (wolvie can to but not literally).

[Surge]

night crawler is the best besides warlock screw wolverine

[McCoy]

like i said even though every one MUST side with Logan (not because he is every one fav or nothin) if night NC ports with him once its over plain and simple in a matter or a second or two he's done as a matter of fact if he ports his silly #$% some were off a coast some or something like two miles or three he's done for even if he can swim with his skeleton's weght he'll be two draind to swim back. you cant argue with facts! But the hard part is for him to get close enough with out getting impaled even if he does NC will still port him into a solid wall ending his career.plus wovie has two arms nightcrawler has technacaly three (not as if he would really keep up with the wolverine for long though) but all he got to do is touch that head and its a done deal. wolverines good but cmon his fighting skill can go a long way but wth thats like sayin he can beat magnito (without the bone claws).
he's alwas close combat and kurt can be deadly with a touch (wolvie can to but not literally).
Excuseme, but as I recall it the first time Nightcrawler "bamphed" with Wolverine, they arrived with Kurt knocked out and Logan on his feet. Which one of them would be too drained to swim?

[Mike W]

Wolverine always wins "tag" games. He's more skilled, harder to hurt, and more vicious in a fight. Kurt has a mean streak, but it takes a lot to bring it out of him.

[Bloodstone]

Excuseme, but as I recall it the first time Nightcrawler "bamphed" with Wolverine, they arrived with Kurt knocked out and Logan on his feet. Which one of them would be too drained to swim?

I honestly don't quite remember that one, but it's not actully relevant at all to this discussion.

When Kurt was first introduced, he had lots of trouble porting with people. It generally disoriented the hell out of his passengers and put a terrible strain on his system. Kurt has long since bought down that disadvantage. He's been seen porting up to 8 people at once and he can multiport a single passenger with no strain at all.

When Logan and Kurt play tag, Wolverine alwyas wins because Nightcrawler plays around too much, wasting time by being flamboyant. Wolverine usually predicts his moves and takes him out in one solid hit.

In a straight up sparing match, Wolverine will win. Most of Kurt's powers are geared towards stealth and surprise. Logan is the better fighter, though I would say the gap has closed signifigantly over the years.

In an actual knock down, drag out, life or death brawl Nightcrawler could easily take out Wolverine by porting him into a nearby object. But 616 Kurt could never really do something like that, baring mind control or a "fate of the world" type situation. He lacks the killer instinct. By contrast, Wolverine has killed the woman he loves multiple times. Gutting his best friend would be trivial and he would do it in a heartbeat.

So, as a massive Nightcrawler fan, I give it to Logan three for three in the comics. But if we were to stat them up in HERO and convinently ignore their established personalities entierly, I'd give it to Kurt nine fights out of ten.

[McCoy]

I honestly don't quite remember that one,
Uncanny X-Men #108 IIRC, or possibly 109. Think the implication was Kurt had a difficult time teleporting with Logan because he did not realize just how heavier than he looks Wolverine was. Of course it was also the second time he ported with a passenger, Liandra having been the first. My point was that you cannot automatically assume Logan is going to be stunned by the 'port.

Also the question is will the sequence of events be port grab port or port Snick!

[Bloodstone]

My point was that you cannot automatically assume Logan is going to be stunned by the 'port.

Wolverine of all people will probably not be stunned by the port.

Like virtually all the older X-Men, he's been ported enough that a quick bamf or two just isn't going to affect him at all. And there is no way that the physical strain is goign to do anything that his healing factor couldn't handle.

Now, our Fuzzy Blue Elf might be able to mess with him by porting in different directions (ie, appearing upside down on reentry and such). Being rapidly ported sideways, backwards and upside down tends to screw with a persons equilibrium (happend to Gambit once or twice if I recall). But that sort of thing would take multiple ports and might give Wolverine time to react.


Also the question is will the sequence of events be port grab port or port Snick!

Kurt doesn't really have to grab Logan, but merely be in physical contact with him. And I'm not arguing that from a HERO system POV mind you. That's how it generally works in the comics. But what really matters is how sneaky and ruthless Nightcrawler is.

If Nightcrawler is doing his whole "port-punch-port-kick-port" thing, then I say Wolverine probably tags him by port two or three. He knows him too well, is too experienced of a fighter and has too good of reflexes. Besides, it's goign to take a lot more then a few dozen kicks and punchs from Nightcrawler to incapacitate the Logan. Maybe if we give Kurt three swords to wield it might have some impact, but I dobt it.

But techniclaly, there's nothing really stoping Nightcrawler from simply tearing Logan apart limb by limb with multiple ports. Wolverine has unbreakable adamantium bones, not unbreakable adamantium joints. The tendons are still just normal sinew. Or, if it's "port-touch-port-into-wall", I say it's game over for Logan in the blink of an eye.

But something that would simply never happen in the comics. Well, maybe in the AoA universe, but not 616...

[Xiss66]

I honestly don't quite remember that one, but it's not actully relevant at all to this discussion.

When Kurt was first introduced, he had lots of trouble porting with people. It generally disoriented the hell out of his passengers and put a terrible strain on his system. Kurt has long since bought down that disadvantage. He's been seen porting up to 8 people at once and he can multiport a single passenger with no strain at all.

When Logan and Kurt play tag, Wolverine alwyas wins because Nightcrawler plays around too much, wasting time by being flamboyant. Wolverine usually predicts his moves and takes him out in one solid hit.

In a straight up sparing match, Wolverine will win. Most of Kurt's powers are geared towards stealth and surprise. Logan is the better fighter, though I would say the gap has closed signifigantly over the years.

In an actual knock down, drag out, life or death brawl Nightcrawler could easily take out Wolverine by porting him into a nearby object. But 616 Kurt could never really do something like that, baring mind control or a "fate of the world" type situation. He lacks the killer instinct. By contrast, Wolverine has killed the woman he loves multiple times. Gutting his best friend would be trivial and he would do it in a heartbeat.

So, as a massive Nightcrawler fan, I give it to Logan three for three in the comics. But if we were to stat them up in HERO and convinently ignore their established personalities entierly, I'd give it to Kurt nine fights out of ten.

Thanks for that one i defenently respect you as a debater,
but yea i couldn't say it any better.
but with logans healing factor He can't heal his own life force being drained.
But another point has been raised yes it would take a couple of more than a few ports too truly get him and the whole port punch/kick won't work against him if (must i quote) give him those three swords but most likely that wont slow logan down too much to really be significant besides maybe a defense for getting jigged.
oh and yea thats another good point i dont think i brought up and give cred to who ever did that he dont have to port via grab.
plus what if he gets stabbed and then ports logans head off but survived the stab

[Superskrull]

plus what if he gets stabbed and then ports logans head off but survived the stab

Well, in that case, I'd say Kurt wins. Fatality!