Dive for Cover rules silly?

[theskaven]

Just a thought. I have a character in my high powered campaign with a 40 DEX (he's a Flash rip-off).

According to the 5th edition rules, you can dive for cover to avoid any attack. So if you have a 12SPD and are in one on one combat, he can never be hit. Just "dive for cover" one hex away, makes it on 17 or less.

I dunno, used to be "dive for cover" was only meant for area of effect and explosion attacks. I am thinking of instituting a house rule that dive for cover can only be used for those types of attacks.

Thoughts?

[Monolith]

While your character is Diving For Cover every Phase he is not hitting anyone either. You are still wasting your Phases and giving yourself a 16- Activation Roll to boot. Eventually you will roll that 17 or 18. :) It is really no different than Dodging every Phase, except you are taking the "to hit" roll away from the attack and putting it into your own hands.

[Gary]

If you have a 40 dex and 12 spd, you have many more options than just dive for cover. ;)

[Blue]

I was bored one day and re-explored the bell curve. You know what the chance is of rolling a 17 or 18?... Something like 1.852% There's a good chance it'll be a LONG time before he fails the roll.

But as stated, if you have that kind of ridiculous SPD and DEX, you should be able to handle your opponent before he gets you.

Also note that DIVE FOR COVER is under "Optional Rules". And, as the man hath said, if it doesn't work for you, change it or toss it out. My opinion generally is that as long as everyone equally has a chance to do it, then it's fine in my campaign.

[Insaniac99]

Originally posted by Blue
I was bored one day and re-explored the bell curve. You know what the chance is of rolling a 17 or 18?... Something like 1.852% There's a good chance it'll be a LONG time before he fails the roll.

don't be so sure, in my group(s), i have actualy been asked to let other people roll my rolls on anything truly important (like disarming a bomb), even when my roll (with all penalties taken into account) is a 17-, because i roll poorly contantly, i usually miss 60% or more of my rolls by only one, and only make about 10% of the rolls i make no mater what the roll, and roll the 18 more that once in each session

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by theskaven
I dunno, used to be "dive for cover" was only meant for area of effect and explosion attacks. I am thinking of instituting a house rule that dive for cover can only be used for those types of attacks.The problem with this is that it effectively makes all of the characters precognitive. How would they know an attack was going to be an Area Effect attack before it occurred? They could guess, I suppose, and declare a Dive For Cover if they thought it was going to be an Area Effect. But what if they're wrong? What happens then? Why should the Dive For Cover magically fail?

I think the 5th Edition way works better. :)

[Ndreare]

I am rarly in agame were that level of power exist so it has never been a problem. I mean think aboute it you have 120 active points in deffense & 120 in speed of course it will be hard to hit you if you are choosing not to be struck.

[Alibear]

Is there no down-side to making a dive for cover roll?

I always make the diver at 1/2 dcv until he has a chance to get up.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Alibear
Is there no down-side to making a dive for cover roll?

I always make the diver at 1/2 dcv until he has a chance to get up. I think 1/2 DCV penalty may be a bit excessive. All the necessary penalty is built into the -1/1" Dived. If the character fails his Dive for Cover roll, he'll be in midair within the area of the attack and will suffer increased knockback because he's airborne. That seems like a sufficient penalty to me.

As a house rule a slight penalty such as -2 might be OK, especially if you allow characters with Breakfall to instantly regain their feet if they make their Breakfall roll.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
I think 1/2 DCV penalty may be a bit excessive. All the necessary penalty is built into the -1/1" Dived.The rulebook disagrees. :) Page 260 clearly states that a character is prone after a Dive For Cover, and suffers all the usual penalties thereof, including 1/2 DCV and having to take a Half Phase to stand up.

[TheEmerged]

Also -- correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it you can only DfC once per phase.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
Also -- correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it you can only DfC once per phase. According to the rules FAQ, you can, but only at GM's discretion assuming special effects and the situation allow. In most circumstances, that would probably mean you could not.

[theskaven]

The 12 SPD isn't really the problem, I mean the it fits with the character concept.

I guess the real problem is with having your opponent, no matter their skill level, automatically miss. Does that seem right to you?

And yes, having a 12SPD is bad, but as mentioned, no reason to ever dodge, really. Diving for cover one hex is a 17 or less roll. Your opponent will always miss. And, since your SPD is faster, most of the time he will miss and you will have recovered from your dodge before he goes again.

It just doesn't seem right to me, you should really dodge all attacks other than area of effect attacks. But that's just one man's opinion. :)

skaven

[dbsousa]

Originally posted by theskaven
The 12 SPD isn't really the problem, I mean the it fits with the character concept.

I disagree.

Unless you have a 12 SPD, dive for cover is not a perfect solution. At any other SPD, if you spend all your time Diving for Cover, you spend all your off segments prone. Even with a SPD of 12, a team of two with decent tactics could ensure that one of them always attacked you while you were prone.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by theskaven
I guess the real problem is with having your opponent, no matter their skill level, automatically miss. Does that seem right to you?Yes. :)

And yes, having a 12SPD is bad, but as mentioned, no reason to ever dodge, really.Well, except that a Dodge adds to your DCV, while Dive For Cover cuts it in half and requires you to waste your next Half-Phase righting yourself. I think that's a pretty significant reason not to use Dive For Cover if anything else will do.

Diving for cover one hex is a 17 or less roll.Only for your 40 DEX character. The vast majority of characters do not have 17- DEX rolls.

And, since your SPD is faster, most of the time he will miss and you will have recovered from your dodge before he goes again.Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on how your next Phases line up. If you had to Abort to Dive For Cover, and he has a Phase on the next Segment, you'll still be prone and probably can't Dive again. You'll either have to Abort to standing up or Block or something.

It just doesn't seem right to me, you should really dodge all attacks other than area of effect attacks.I ask again, how do you know they're Area Effect Attacks before the fact? You have to declare a Dive For Cover before the attack takes effect. At that point, you have no way to know whether an attack is Area Effect or not.

[JohnOSpencer]

You can't abort if you've had an action in the current phase. He has to hold his action or he can't dive for cover.

John Spencer

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

I ask again, how do you know they're Area Effect Attacks before the fact? You have to declare a Dive For Cover before the attack takes effect. At that point, you have no way to know whether an attack is Area Effect or not.

I would simply surmise that in many cases an area attack is very evident as such. A dragon's breath looks a lot different than a bullet.

Most attacks are visible and obvious, so it shouldn't be too hard to figure it out.

Is it your position that in the majority of cases an area attack and a single person targetting attack are indistinguishable?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by tesuji
Is it your position that in the majority of cases an area attack and a single person targetting attack are indistinguishable? Often, yes. Not always, not even the majority of the time, but often. For example, a grenade is an Explosion, yet fits in the palm of the hand. If someone launched a similar device at someone, how would they know it was going to be an Area Effect?

But more to the point, consider this exchange:

GM: The alien probe launches a circular device at you.
Player: I Dive For Cover.
GM (before device explodes, hits, or anything else): You can't. It's not an Area Effect attack.
Player: Okay, I Dodge.

Presto, the player suddenly has Precognition. And it's unfair Precognition, because it never works in reverse. You never see Retrocogntion like this:

GM: The alien probe launches a circular device at you.
Player: I Dodge.
GM: Okay, it hits the area and explodes.
Player: Darn! If I'd known it was an Area Effect, I would have used Dive For Cover.
GM: Okay, take it back and Dive For Cover.

Besides, this whole controversy seems odd to me. Dive For Cover has a chance of failure, and makes you Half DCV and prone even if it succeeds. No one would willingly use it to avoid an attack they knew was single target unless it was an act of deperation, because it leaves them so open to counter-attack. The Maneuver is balanced just fine exactly as it is in H5E, IMO. :)

[Killer Shrike]

"I let a character have 120 character points of DEX and 60 more character points in SPEED and Im concerned that he can prevent 1 person per phase from hitting him at the expense of doing anything useful, and being 1/2 DCV vs everything else that Phase, and having to make a Breakfall check or waste a 1/2 Phase standing up." :rolleyes:


Gee. Yeah, that could be a problem. I mean, if the character lives in a universe where mono-y-mono combat is the only allowable combat format, and all combats are timed with the win going to the combatant that never actually attacked, then its probably unbalancing in such a campaign world.

Of course the character could just rely on his 40/3 = <h3>13 DCV {Unmodified!!!}</h3> to not get hit at all by 99% of the universe.

Or the character could also just, i dunno, put those 180 points into Defenses instead. Like 75% Resistant Reduction vs PD ED and MD, or +10 MD, 25 PowerDef, 30 PD 30 ED Armor Hardened x 2, and -5" KB?

Its a non-issue. Let the guy dive for cover vs attacker #1 and then clock him with attackers #2 through 6. He'll find out why 1/2 DCV is a bad thing and learn his lesson. TINSTAAFL.

[tesuji]

[/B][/QUOTE]


Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Often, yes. Not always, not even the majority of the time, but often. For example, a grenade is an Explosion, yet fits in the palm of the hand. If someone launched a similar device at someone, how would they know it was going to be an Area Effect?

You would not AT THAT INSTANT. Nothing in the dive for cover rules states that you have to make the decision when it leaves their hand. nor in the dodge rules for that matter.


Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

GM: The alien probe launches a circular device at you.
Player: I Dive For Cover.

A premature declaration.

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

GM (before device explodes, hits, or anything else): You can't. It's not an Area Effect attack.
Player: Okay, I Dodge.

A bad result indicative of a poor sequence, not an example of bad rules.

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Presto, the player suddenly has Precognition. And it's unfair Precognition, because it never works in reverse. You never see Retrocogntion like this:

Its not precognition at all. its the GM allowing a premature declaration.

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

GM: The alien probe launches a circular device at you.
Player: I Dodge.
GM: Okay, it hits the area and explodes.
Player: Darn! If I'd known it was an Area Effect, I would have used Dive For Cover.
GM: Okay, take it back and Dive For Cover.

How about this...

GM: The alien hurls his circular energy globe at you.
Player: OK
GM It lands at your feet and explodes
Player: I dive for cover to avoid the blast
GM: Make your roll.

Dive for covers are made IN RESPONSE TO area attacks, not in anticipation of them.

None of the rules for abortive actions require prescience on the part of the player. The enemy raises his hand and a green beam shoots out. Is it "at me" or "at the guy next to me"? I don't have to guess that at all. I am told within the rules if it is at me and i get to make my decision based on that knowledge.

I don't have to guess when the dragon takes his intake of breath if there is an area attack and whether i am in its area. Neither should i have to guess whether the glowing ball is a grenade or not.

If i can decide to dive against the dragons breath once we know he is breathing fire, then i ought to be allowed to dive against the grenade once it goes off, for one very simple reason... they both paid the same amount for area.

Now if you want to give "grenades" an advantage such as "not obviously area attack until its too late to dive for cover" then maybe you should look into some form of the IPE. perhaps you should take IPE on the area effect portion of the power.

Otherwise, you simply encourage and reward the SFX wranglers who just want to define their "area" attacks as all "looks a lot like a non-area attack until its too late" for free.

"My enemy wont be able to reasonably dive for cover until after i have stung him once or twice" is a solid palpable advantage not SFX.

*************

On another note, do you allow dodges against laser strikes? By the time you know its a laser beam aimed at you, then by definition its too late?

*************

IMO, the main reason to allow D4C against any attack not just area is that area attacks are so weak that normally the hero is better off just letting the effect go and not wasting the action and a half diving against a scratch.





Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Besides, this whole controversy seems odd to me. Dive For Cover has a chance of failure, and makes you Half DCV and prone even if it succeeds. No one would willingly use it to avoid an attack they knew was single target unless it was an act of deperation, because it leaves them so open to counter-attack. The Maneuver is balanced just fine exactly as it is in H5E, IMO. :)

[megaplayboy]

well, what kind of area effect attack would a speedster be safe from just by diving 1 hex? if they allow 12 SPD, that's 120 active points. a 12d6 AE radius blast would mean the speedster has to dive 6 hexes, at a 11- roll, a very good chance to blow it. And if he blows it, he takes the damage, AND is at half DCV until he takes a half phase to restore his DCV.

To be honest, a lot of combats I have seen in Champions seem to consist of getting the other guys at half DCV and tag-team nuking them. Hyper-efficient, but boring as heck.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by tesuji
GM: The alien hurls his circular energy globe at you.
Player: OK
GM It lands at your feet and explodes
Player: I dive for cover to avoid the blast
GM: Make your roll.This is an inappropriate sequence. Once the GM says "It lands at your feet," that means he's already made the Attack Roll. The player can now no longer declare Dive For Cover; it must be declared prior to the Attack Roll. And if he declares it prior to the attack roll, then the globe is still in midair, and he doesn't know it's going to be an Area Effect.

Dive for covers are made IN RESPONSE TO area attacks, not in anticipation of them.I think you need to re-read the rules on timing in combat. ;)

Bottom line (and my last word on this thread since it seems to be going nowhere useful) is that Dive For Cover brings plenty of hefty penalties to balance its potential usefulness. I see no reason at all to restrict it to Area Effect attacks only.

[lemming]

Interesting. I treat the Dive for Cover manuever very much like a block. (Multiple dives are feasible, etc...)

I also let the player know if it's a area attack or a direct attack. It avoids the SFX argument and tends to speed combat actually. And for that matter, I let them see where the area is actually going to be aimed at. (Though, sometimes it's easier to just shoot at the person with an area attack. Then others may want to make a per roll if they're nearby)

The rules I use: " Dive for Cover Character is up after dive if second Dex roll is made at same minuses. If character has Acrobatics or Breakfall, no minuses to second roll.

Multiple dive for cover (Additional -2 like blocking)

Walk for Cover - If delayed, dex roll is made and then player can choose how far to go. (First one only though). No roll to see if on feet needed."

While this does tend to make a dive pretty handy, I also tend to throw larger explosions around. :D

[Markdoc]

How about this...

GM: The alien hurls his circular energy globe at you.
Player: OK
GM: It lands at your feet and explodes
Player: I dive for cover to avoid the blast
GM: Ummm, Dude, it's ALREADY exploded.

Likewise:

GM: The alien points some kind of device at you.
Player: OK
GM: A laser beam strikes you in the chest
Player: I dodge!
GM: <grins> Nice try.

In my games, dive for cover or dodge is declared before the nature of the attack is revealed and before any to hit rolls are made (the hex, the chest, whatever). Getting it wrong occasionally or giving up a phase for an attack that would miss is part of the tradeoff for being able to act out of sequence. If the player (or an NPC for that matter) mistakes an AoE for a beam/projectile weapon or vice versa, well, their remaining teammates can probably benefit from the lesson.

I don't let players wait until they see whether an attack will hit before declaring a block either. Aren't I nasty? :-)

Dive for cover can be usefully used against beam/projectile weapons too - for example, diving behind a pile of crates, or a vehicle. Very genre.

cheers, Mark

[mudpyr8]

A number of comments.

1. The game is cinematic. Forcing your players to second guess everything is adversarial and will not result in a cinematic experience.

2. D4C works against any attack. Read the FAQ. Against HtH attacks you only need to get out of range of the HtH and you are automatically missed.

3. Like Block, D4C must be declared before the attack roll is made. Obviously clear indication of where the attack is being made (i.e. the character must be threatened). If you want tension, don't tell the player how big the radius of effect is.

I don't believe D4C is unbalancing. Because you end up prone and 1/2 DCV it isn't the best action for everyone. But when an Ogre is attacking a DCV 3 Mage, it isn't a bad idea. The Mage can make a DEX-1 roll and get out of the way, which is much better odds than getting practically automatically hit. Hopefully that makes enough time for someone else to step in.

Take a look at Flying Dodge (maneuver). This effectively allows (as clarified by FAQ) the character to D4C without the 1/2 DCV penalty or a DEX roll. Even so, it is still a balanced maneuver.

We have had a lot of fun since discovering D4C in all situations. Monsters use it, players use it, it's all balanced. It's cinematic... you give up your action to not be hit. If you don't have the MA maneuver, you have to make a DEX roll. Then you are at a disadvantage until your next action, and hopefully won't be mobbed by the other combatants.

So, how about this:

How about this...

GM: The alien hurls his circular energy globe at you.
Player: OK, I D4C behind cover
GM: It lands where you were and opens up to reveal a 1 hex image of dancing bears singing Happy Birthday.
Player: Whew! I thought it was a grenade.
GM: Yeah, funny huh? Well now, the alien points some kind of device at you.
Player: I dodge, +3 DCV!
GM: A laser beam strikes you in the chest
Player: Dammit, I wish my DCV were higher.
GM: Yeah, well you can make sure that's true for your next character.

[tesuji]

I still remain curious for those who make it so how much of an advantage (+1/4 +1/2) having "my attacks are not obviously what they are until its too late to abort actions against them" is worth.

I can imagine the experienced and veteran HERO gamer who defines his multipower as "each of the powers when used emits a glowing blue ball which releases its effect when it strikes or reaches the desired range. All the blue balls look identical, regardless of power."

His multipower includes various single target attacks, a couple area attacks including NNDs, darkness effects, and the lot of them.

Now, by FX, the guys who are already immune to the NNDs and know it won't know until "its too late" and so will still be tempted to D4C against attacks that cannot affect them. Guys with senses so that fog clouds are no problem or other reasons not too still won't know its darkness until "its too late" and will be diving for cover or dodging anyway.

It seems to me that once your Gm adds in the "you must decide against some attacks whether to dodge or D4C before you have any credible knowledge of the threat" that this becomes a very useful ability.

Why should it be free?

What's the balancing downside between Arcane Guy who defines his attacks as spells firebolt (RKA), lightning ball (EB area), fog cloud (darkness) and spirit storm (EB NND Area not vs force fields) where each of his spells has a unique look from the get go (allowing the enemies to decide with knowledge whether to dodge or d4c or not) vs Alien Juggler who throws identical blue balls for each of those attacks who only reveal what they do AFTER they "hit", after an attack roll is made and too late for knowledgable choices?

How much would you charge for this advantage?

If I were playing under a GM like listed above, where you have to make these decisions blind, but only for some SFX, then I would certainly expect to see a cost difference.

[Alibear]

Originally posted by tesuji
If I were playing under a GM like listed above, where you have to make these decisions blind, but only for some SFX, then I would certainly expect to see a cost difference.

When I am GMing, and I have done this nearly weekly for 15 years, I let the players work this out on thier own. Experience counts.

How many times in the media do we see characters lose the first battle, learn from thier mistakes, and ultimately win out in the end?

Oh, and BTW I would not allow the blue balled alien in my campaign. All powers should look a little different to people that have seen thier effect.

Perhaps I am being strict, but, do we have any comics, or other sources, which support the one special effect, lots of powers, example?

[tesuji]

Arguably, the green lantern... one green glow which forms different shapes for different purposes.

However, depending on the GM, this may or may not be a genre fiend game where you are limited to only things which have been published in a cimic. For instance, i might envision a cuborg with a demonic hand and an alien grav sled... which probably has not been in a comic... as a decent character. Not all GMs would dismiss that solely because it hasn't been seen in print.

Still, to stay on point, it seems like a power "whose nature is obvious only after its too late to abort" has an inherent advantage of reasonable and palpable proportions over a power "whose nature is obvious when there is still time to abort" and IMO if a Gm is going to enforce these and have them play a definitive role IN PLAY then they should not fit within the relatively narrow constraints of FX and should be accounted for.

It is at LEAST as significant an effect as "not in intense magnetic fields" which IIRC is -1/4 or any number of 1/4 level disads or limits. heck, reduced penetration is worth -1/4 and it is the best way to handle "stun only" I have seen. (-1/4 reduced penetration -1/4 no KB OR chose to take for free stun only???? Works great with non-protective entangles and rapid fire!)

[Markdoc]

The question as to whether "nature of attacks is inobvious" is a worthwhile advantage - and if so how much - is a fair one.

But on thinking about it, it does not seem to be worth much - in about 20 years of Hero system gaming, it has simply never been an issue. That clearly makes it worth less in practical terms than "not in magnetic fields", which has come into play at least three times that I can recall. Of course, the fact that the latter is in the rulesbook may have had something to do with it :-)

While a player could plausibly come up with such a power (a bow that shoots arrows with different special attacks, for example - such devices have been used in games I have run or played in) it has never given the player a significant edge. That may be because - in my games at least - the general approach if you are worried about the nature of an attack is a dive for cover BEHIND something. That protects against explosions, but not against gas. And I am not going to go round changing the cost of every attack based on special effect: EB, explosive 5 points/d6, energy blast explosive, gas, 7 points/d6, Energy blast explosive, heavier than air gas, 8 points/d6, etc, etc

In short, special effects can be advantageous sometimes and that should be balanced in use by the occasional disadvantage. To me, this one does not affect play enough to worth a +1/4, although depending on your players, YMMV. One day BluBall the Alien Juggler is going to accidentally load a Mega-explosion ball into the holster normally used for the Laserbeam ball and use it on a nearby target. After all, if they look the same to everyone else, he's gonna need to buy a special sense himself to be able to tell them apart - and a player who wants to min-max the system like this is hardly gonna cough up 5 whole points for "can see multiple shades of dark blue"

Cheers, Mark

[Tasha]

Originally posted by tesuji
Still, to stay on point, it seems like a power "whose nature is obvious only after its too late to abort" has an inherent advantage of reasonable and palpable proportions over a power "whose nature is obvious when there is still time to abort" and IMO if a Gm is going to enforce these and have them play a definitive role IN PLAY then they should not fit within the relatively narrow constraints of FX and should be accounted for.

There is an Advantage that covers that. It is called Invisible Power effects. I would limit is someway so that only the specific power is masked, not the attack streaking to the target.

Tasha :)

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Tasha
There is an Advantage that covers that. It is called Invisible Power effects. I would limit is someway so that only the specific power is masked, not the attack streaking to the target.

Tasha :)

I tend to agree.

[Killer Shrike]

tesuji has a point on this one.

Probably a variation of IPE or Variable SFX,

+1/4 Inobvious SFX: This Advantage is usually applied to Multipower Pools containing numerous attack slots or applied to several attack powers with a common theme or SFX. This advantage allows all of these attack powers to have a common and indistinguishable SFX which does not communicate any useful information to observers regarding the capabilities of the attack. Thus a character with an Archer Multipower of various Trick Arrows that applied this Advantage to the Multipower could use any of his Trick Arrow slots without indicating to an opponent that 1 is Armor Piercing while another is Explosive, and yet another contains a Gas attack. Similarly an Energy Projector with a fine-tunable attack power (via Variable SFX or Variable Advantage for instance) that took this advantage could 'tune' his attack to affect a certain SFX or to have certain Advantages without indicating what type of SFX or Advantage was in effect; to an opponent each attack looks identical, its effect becoming obvious only after the attack has resolved.