New App - Need Input

[Starwolf]

I am in the process of developing a new Windows based application. This is an exercise for a college project, but I hope to make it as complete as possible. I am attempting to develop a Hero movement/combat manager with built in dice and Hero calculators. I know that there are several apps already available but while each has good points none quite satisfies me. SO... What would other Herophiles like to see included in such an app?

For those with a background in programming this is my initial step in the SDLC...Investigation. Anyone wishing to collaborate or donate code snippets (I am using VB.net) will be given credit in the finished app and of course my undying gratitude. :)

[Fitz]

In the Movement section: translation of inches/Turn to km/h and mph, plus velocity-based DCV and Move-Through/By damage calculation.

[Starwolf]

Ok, here is what I have come up with so far....

And thanks to Fitz for being the first to reply

Hero Battlemaster Features
Track Hero system movement, that is turns, segments, character phases, and event phases. Characters should be sorted by SPD/DEX. Current sort should be affected by current stat so that wounds, impairment, disabling, power effects, and skills can be facilitated. Track character movement status (moved, aborted, held action, held half-action).
Track character STUN, BODY, END, and current status (stunned, unconscious, dead, bleeding, impaired, disabled, flashed, entangled, etc).
Track power activation, burnout, RSR, etc.
Track activated continuous power END consumption
Allow automated activation, burnout, RSR rolls, but also allow for manual input
Track combat hit rolls to include current active character modified OCV (OCV plus bonuses minus penalties) and selected target DCV (DCV plus bonuses minus penalties). Include velocity and size based DCV and modifiers.
Track Damage to include Normal, killing, stun only, NND, AVLD, Explosions, AOE, Flash, Mind Control, Armor Piercing, Penetrating, Knock-back/knockdown, etc. Take into consideration selected targets Defenses (PD/ED, RPD/RED, EGO DEF, Mental Def, Flash Def, Etc.) Allow for automated rolls and application of target damage or manual input. Include velocity based damage for move-by/move-through.
Allow manual input of characters
Allow for import of characters from Hero Designer and Creation Workshop
Allow app to save single characters and groups.
Allow multiple groups to be loaded (for creating pre-set encounters).
Allow app to create copies of selected character.
Standard Hero dice roller
Hero movement converter (inches to MPH/KPH, etc)
Range penalty calculator factoring in target distance and altitude plus active characters RSLs.
Tab for Hero Standard tables.
Tab for game notes.
Stream game history to a text file for archive.
Include an UNDO Feature (to include enough undo levels to go back one character, or one Phase). Please understand that this is more of a wish list and may be drastically affected in the final product by several constraints including my programming capability, and time available for the project. But I will endeavor make it as complete as possible.

[KA.]

I spent quite a few years as an applications programmer (mainframe stuff, but the concepts are the same), and I would be more than happy to help.
I have also been GM'ing for over 20 years on and off, so I have some idea of what might be helpful in the type of product you are designing.

My first piece of advice is that you should mock-up what the interface is going to look like, and tell us a bit more specifically what you intend the program to do. (If nothing else this will help you focus a bit on what the final product will be.)

Then post it here, or email it to a group of volunteers who might actually use it, to see what others would add or subtract.

Right now I could post pages of refinements that may have nothing to do with the final project as you see it, so the most barebones of non-functional previews would really help a lot.

Currently I use a spreadsheet that I designed to roll damage, but it is not very sophisticated, because I never needed it to be.

However, I have some decent ideas on things I would like to add.

Whether they would have anything to do with the direction you intend to go is the big question.

One thing I will say, right off the bat, is that you need to build in an "Undo" feature.
I don't know how many times I have been at the table with players who say:
"I am going to attack Supervillain X!"
"Okay, let me check the damage . . ."
"No, wait! On second thought, I am going to attack Supervillain Z!"
at which point a set of intricately tracked Body, Stun, and End Totals are worthless.

It is critical to be able to Undo the last action or two.

It is also critical to be able to quickly Save the current state of the Battle, along with some sort of indicators to let you know who just went, and who is next to go, when you reconvene.

That way, when the cat knocks over a Coke and the GM has to shut everything down in a second, you don't have to try to remember whose turn it was when you get things going again.

Feel free to PM, email, or post here if you would like the help.

I am getting ready to be on break from school and would be happy to have something to sink my teeth into.
:)

KA.

[Starwolf]

Wow KA those are some great ideas that I never considered.....

I would greatly appreciate any help as the project progresses. For grading purposes I have to be able to show my professor that I followed the SDLC closely. The next step after gathering this input from the community will be the Story Boarding (rough screen layouts), Flowcharting and Pseudo-code. From those I will have to develop a Requirements Statement and turn it in. Then using those as a guide I can actually start coding. Consider both the UNDO and movement status indicators included in the preliminary features wishlist.

[Starwolf]

I have received a couple of great ideas so far to add to the "proposed features" wishlist. I will keep accepting input til midnight this coming Friday then I will freeze the list and start then next phase of development...Analysis! Thanks so far....

[Cancer]

Be able to write/preserve manual input to a file, and read all files back in; and also preserve (on command) SEPARATELY the status at any given time, and restore back to that instantaneous status from file.

It might be useful to be able to read your initial input file and your history stream and evolve all the characters "automatically" from those, and then compare that to another preserved status file. (This isn't really essential, but it'll sure add a degree of robustness.)

Don't forget to include possible global or near-global modifiers to OCV/DCV/etc. due to environment (and Change Environment).

Don't forget PRE attacks.

You will probably want the option to insert text comments into the logstream.

[Starwolf]

More great ideas....thanks

[Derek Hiemforth]

The very most critical feature I'd personally like to see (in order to make me want to use it myself) is the ability to selectively turn all of its abilities on or off. :) Because, to me, most apps designed to do these sorts of things are too time-and-labor intensive for me to use as a GM. I've found that I spend at least as much time fiddling around with the app as it would take me to just do everything the old-fashioned way.

So for me, an app like this is most useful just as a Phase-and-Combat-Order tracker, plus maybe also an effect-tracker for Flashes, Adjustment Powers, etc. I wouldn't want it to insist on tracking other stuff for me... I'd want to be able to specify which aspects of the game I wanted it to handle and which aspects I wanted to handle myself. :)

As far as function-specific suggestions...

Just in terms of setting the Combat Order, I think it should have a fair amount of flexibility, because a lot of people like to use various "tiebreakers" so they can set the whole Combat Order in advance with no need for in-game dice-offs. For example, I'd love to see... A way to sort by additional criteria beyond just DEX and SPD (for example, a way to tell it to sort by DEX, then INT, then PRE, then SPD). Or... A way to manually move a character up or down the Combat Order, to manually accomodate such tiebreaker house rules. Or... (Ideally) Both A and B. :) (Because no matter how sophisticated you make the app in terms of allowing multiple criteria to affect the Combat Order, there's always the chance that someone wants to use a criterion that the app isn't designed to know about.)Another funky feature that might be cool would be an option to randomize the Speed Chart, for folks who don't like the predictability of the standard rules. :) In other words, a SPD 6 character would always have 6 Action Phases during each Turn, but they wouldn't always fall on 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12. Instead, the app would randomly choose six unique Segments each Turn, and the character would go on those Segments that Turn.

This is the sort of thing that would be neat to try in play, except that it would be a PITB to do with dice. Each player (and the GM for NPCs) would have to roll d12s before every Turn, note what they roll, and keep re-rolling duplicates until they got a number of unique results equal to their character's SPD score. That would be a big hassle, and few people would want to mess with it.

But it would be very easy to do in an application... :D

[Sketchpad]

How about a way to import info off a HDC file?

[Derek Hiemforth]

How about a way to import info off a HDC file?Already on the list in post #3...

"Allow for import of characters from Hero Designer and Creation Workshop"

[Killer Shrike]

As it happens Im a .NET developer, and though Im way too busy to actively participate at this point, I could certainly do some code review or consult on some tricky issues

Ideally, as youve noted, your app should be able to parse Hero Designer character sheets, which would not only free you from having to deal with creating and storing them, but would also make your app more widely usable. I would make that my first task and guage the feasability of the project from the basis of at least having a working stub for that.

[Sketchpad]

Already on the list in post #3...

"Allow for import of characters from Hero Designer and Creation Workshop"
So it is :) Must've missed that in my initial sweep

[Starwolf]

I agree the number one and two features must be movement tracking and import of HD characters. The idea to sort by additional criteria and have some sort of "tie breaker" criteria are also good input. And Shrike thanks for the offer, I may just take you up on the reviewing. I have no doubt that everything on the list so far can be accomplished but this app is by far the most complex I have attempted so far, and I am sure that at some point I will get stuck, so any review or suggestions at that time could be priceless.

[Starwolf]

Thank you everyone for your input. I have begun working up my story boarding, flow charts and Psuedo Code. I will keep everyone apprised of my progress. To avoid "scope creep" the features list is frozen and I will attempt to develop the app with the capabilities suggested in this thread.....


So without further ado....

UP,UP, AND AWAY.......swoosh...:winkgrin:

[keithcurtis]

I would love and pay money for an app like this. I have an extensive FMP database that does most of this, but HD does such a better job at writing up characters, that I would switch.

Keith "crossing my fingers" Curtis

EDIT: Just saw "Windows-based". Never mind. :(

[Killer Shrike]

Supposedly you can run .NET apps on Virtual PC. I've never tried.

As it happens Apple outsources an important service to my company and I happen to be the lead developer on the project, but all our tech is microsoft based. The main user client is web based and we manage to get it to work in Safari with much cursing and swearing, but some of the Apple HR people use one of our admin tools which is IE only and they use Virtual PC to do it. Supposedly it is slow, but it runs.


At any rate, if he provides an ASP.NET interface and hosts it on a web server somewhere you could still use it via a browser, even if just IE 5 for Mac.

[Steve Long]

Good luck with this, Starwolf! If you can come up with a quick and easy way to track all that stuff, huzzah for you. ;)

[Susano]

Supposedly you can run .NET apps on Virtual PC. I've never tried.

As it happens Apple outsources an important service to my company and I happen to be the lead developer on the project, but all our tech is microsoft based. The main user client is web based and we manage to get it to work in Safari with much cursing and swearing, but some of the Apple HR people use one of our admin tools which is IE only and they use Virtual PC to do it. Supposedly it is slow, but it runs.


At any rate, if he provides an ASP.NET interface and hosts it on a web server somewhere you could still use it via a browser, even if just IE 5 for Mac.

Microsoft will be stopping all support for IE for Macintosh come December 31, 2005.

[Killer Shrike]

Microsoft will be stopping all support for IE for Macintosh come December 31, 2005.
Yes, but IE 5 wont just magically stop working. ;)

[Susano]

Yes, but IE 5 wont just magically stop working. ;)

Yeah, but I don't have it, and won't be able to download it. But then, I really don't want it, as I can't stand IE.

[darelf]

Not much of VB fan, but I'd look at anything and help out if I can. Not saying I can, just I'll look. I'm mostly a Java/Python guy myself.

The one thing I would like in this kind of app:

All keyboard interface. I would like to be able to do everything without touching the mouse. I don't care if it's GUI screen or console... that's irrelevant, as long as the visuals put everything I need on the screen.

I want to be able to type everything, whether a command-line type interface or whatever.

When running a combat in any game system, but especially one this complex, mouse-based interfaces are just too slow to be usable for apps like this.

I've done interface work before, web, command-line, gui. In fact, that sounds like a great deal to me. Give me the logic and flow and I can write the interface. (Does it have to be stuck in Windows only? I like the suggestion of making it a web-service. Then you can use any modern browser to access it)

[Killer Shrike]

You can usually translate VB.NET syntax into C# syntax line for line, and from there its pretty close to C and Java syntax. Close enough to figure out what its doing at any rate.

I prefer C# myself, but there are some things that VB.NET does better; particularly event wireups, and optional parameters (in C# you have to overload everything explicitly, VB.NET handles it for you under the hood with Optional parameters).

[Trailblazer]

I've been away from coding for too long to offer much help in that area, but I'd be happy to playtest once a reasonably solid baselevel is ready. I just got a laptop, and it's improved my game-time efficiency as GM by a factor of about five, what with the PDF books (thanks, Hero Games!), HD on-demand, and so on, and especially the Hero Helper tool.

I originally helped playtest Hero Helper but had to stop using it just before it was released, as my PBEM game died suddenly. Now, though, I'm putting it to good use in my live game. It does quite well and has a couple of features I haven't seen mentioned here, such as timed-event pop-up reminders. I quite like it; the only disadvantage is that it was written on a Mac, and the Windows translation is a little quirky and not as robust as it could be. We flagged several such problems in playtest, but a couple linger on.

So, if you need playtesters, let me know. :D

[Killer Shrike]

Status?

[Starwolf]

After much discussion with my professor, and weighing the comments in this thread, I have decided to use C# for coding. I will evetually release both a Windows Application and a web based app (for those that don't prefer windows). I have finalized my features list and will post a final copy plus some preliminary (very rough) gui screen shots in about a week.

Thanks for your continued interest.

[Killer Shrike]

Um...GUI should come last. You should consider your architecture, if you are going to be using any design patterns, and the general object model first. Trying to do a GUI first for a serious application is like building a car by welding the outside together and then trying to build the guts from the outside in.

When you do get down to writing code, you should probably just write the objects, and consume / test them with a command line test harness first. Once the basic functionality works, then you put any number of skins on it in seperate projects. The guts of the code and the interfaces should be decoupled -- if the system is architected correctly you can drop a win client, a web client, some services, or whatever other sort of interface you want on it -- the core functionality shouldnt care about what is calling it.

Off the top of my head, without rolling up my sleeves and getting into it, I would posit that at the least you'll need:

A robust character object which acts as a container for a lot of different sorts of simple objects (powers, etc) and some properties (name, background info, etc). You'll probably want to start with a base character with the very basics, and make it pluggable with different characteristic objects to handle different sorts of characters (normal, vehicles, bases, etc).

A robust object to track battle fields, with some kind of 3 dimensional grid system.

A simple object to track generic bricabrac (DEF, BODY, Size, Weight, aero, balance, damage, description is probably sufficient).

An assembly to handle character management. Among other things, it must consume the character object(s).

An assembly to hand combat management; it must consume multiple character objects, and battlefield objects, and bricabrac objects, and handle character interaction between them. Some kind of time keeping is essential here to handle interaction across time.

[gojira]

Unless of course, its a class about GUIs, in which case the professor probably wants to see that more than the work behind it. ;)

School is funny like that.

[Killer Shrike]

If its an interface only class / lesson then a fully fledged combat simulator seems needlessly and impractically ambitious.

But whatever. At this point its been so long since we heard from the OP that it's likely the endeavor has been scrapped.

[Cancer]

Sadly, I expect you're right.

[Starwolf]

Sorry, not scrapped...just busy. I should have those screen shots in just a few more days. The class is not about GUIs, but there is a definite step by step process that the Professor wants followed and demonstrated. The first step was to gather and compile the features list. The second step (where I am now) is Story boarding (rough screen shots) and Psuedo-coding. Once he reviews/approves/grades the psuedocode and story boarding, I can begin getting to the meat of the matter and start coding in earnest. Things got slowed down as we took a break over the Christmas holidays from classes and we don't start up again til this coming monday.

I appreciate the continued interest...and please be assured that I have not given up, and am still chugging along. I look at this project as more of a marathon than a sprint.

[Killer Shrike]

Hmm....I find it very odd that he wants the class to prototype an interface prior to designing a general architecture.

[gojira]

I'm not sure, but if you are trying to nail down *customer* requirements, it might be best to get their ok on some screen mock-ups at the begining of a project, just to make sure you haven't forgotten anything major.

I forget the name of this development model. It has to do with making prototypes, getting the customer's ok on the prototype, and then prototyping some more. It's been shown to NOT work, because the customer will always ask for a tweak, and will always ask for more features to be added (feature creep).

However, I can see that a modified form of the prototyping model might be useful sometimes. It's another tool in the software engineer's bag of tricks.

[gojira]

Oh yeah, I have a further question for you all. How is this different from Hero Sphere? It sounds to me like that's exactly what he's describing. Just curious....

[Starwolf]

I may be wrong but I believe Herosphere is an Animated Superhero game with some extra abilities to help track IRL games. My project is to develop a GM tool dedicated to IRL gaming only (no animation). And you are correct about the develop model our professor is using. He is insisting on following this methodology so that he can see/visualize our concept/progress before we get into the code. We have discussed this very issue at length in class and in the real world you are correct a real customer (vice my professor) would most likely insist on changes, which would encourage scope creep rather than finalize the product agreement.

[Killer Shrike]

I'm not sure, but if you are trying to nail down *customer* requirements, it might be best to get their ok on some screen mock-ups at the begining of a project, just to make sure you haven't forgotten anything major.

I forget the name of this development model. It has to do with making prototypes, getting the customer's ok on the prototype, and then prototyping some more. It's been shown to NOT work, because the customer will always ask for a tweak, and will always ask for more features to be added (feature creep).

However, I can see that a modified form of the prototyping model might be useful sometimes. It's another tool in the software engineer's bag of tricks.
Prototyping a UI is useful, but not before the general architecture is in place.

I mean, you can do simple applications and utilities that exists basically to interface with a user like that since their form will drive their function, but its a recipe for disaster with more complex applications.


Actually, one of my favorite books, The Pragmatic Programmer, discusses the idea of prototypes and "tracers" at length. There are places and times where they are very useful, but they are not an end unto themselves.

[gojira]

I may be wrong but I believe Herosphere is an Animated Superhero game with some extra abilities to help track IRL games. My project is to develop a GM tool dedicated to IRL gaming only (no animation). And you are correct about the develop model our professor is using. He is insisting on following this methodology so that he can see/visualize our concept/progress before we get into the code. We have discussed this very issue at length in class and in the real world you are correct a real customer (vice my professor) would most likely insist on changes, which would encourage scope creep rather than finalize the product agreement.

Ah! I get it. Herosphere: more of a simulator. Your app: more of a GM's aid.


Actually, one of my favorite books, The Pragmatic Programmer, discusses the idea of prototypes and "tracers" at length. There are places and times where they are very useful, but they are not an end unto themselves.

Cool, I'll have to chek this out. Always willing to expand my horizons.

[Mantis]

I forget the name of this development model. It has to do with making prototypes, getting the customer's ok on the prototype, and then prototyping some more. It's been shown to NOT work, because the customer will always ask for a tweak, and will always ask for more features to be added (feature creep).My memory of my classes on the topic is fading, but IIRR, the model you are describing is just called Prototyping. I think it falls under the umbrella of RAD (Rapid Application Development) but for the life of me I can't recall a single other methodology that is also under the general RAD title, so maybe they are one and the same thing.

EDIT: of course, it took three seconds with Google to discover you are actually describing RAD, and that Prototyping is just one element that makes up RAD.

[Killer Shrike]

RAD doesnt mean what it used to anymore.

I used to do RAD development w/ VB5 and 6. It was good for three things basically:

a) Utilities that just need to provide some kind of interface w/ a user to automate or semi-automate some largely "black box" process(es). The GUI's are basically being layered on top of one or more processes that are really driven by some other code, script, procedure, etc. Since the utility really is just an interface with one or more existing components, the GUI basically is the application.


b) Applications where the time bottleneck isnt the executable code in the tool but is instead in some other discrete component, like heavy server-side database or multi-tier applications where one or more servers are running services that are doing all the heavy lifting and the RAD tool just needs to expose that functionality to a user. You'll note that this is essentially the same as a) above, just done at a bigger scale.


c) To quickly create functional demos that are then re-created in a more robust fashion for real. This is "prototyping". In effect the prototype works as a sort of non-paper functional specification. This is useful when the language you want to use isnt "nimble" and R&D costs too much due to turnaround. The classic example is doing a VB prototype and a C++ actual.


However, the current generation of development platforms, which really translates into "Java and Microsofts take off of Java (.NET)" basically blow that out of the water. Incorporating the more robust / fast code typical of C and the easy GUI design of a VB or Delphi type platform the need for prototyping in the sense used above is lost.

Further I can't speak to Java, but .NET is specifically designed to be n-tiered and provides specific coverage for designing assemblies specifically geared towards filling different tier oriented needs (and I assume that Java does the same); thus the second option above is essentially incorporated into the platform as well.

That basically leaves the first option above, simple utilities that exist to expose functionality from more robust and formally developed components, as the primary use of RAD. Thin ASP.NET apps that rely on web services to do all the real work, and basically any other "thin client" that really is thin and not sporting love handles and a spare tire are examples of this.

You rarely hear the term "RAD" anymore; the newer technology overcame the need for it essentially by incorporating robustness and ease of GUI design into one platform.

The current analog to that is often called "nimble programming", which is basically the idea of not over-coding, keeping things simple or "elegant", not trying to guess at future use and only coding for what is currently needed, and writing code in such a way that it can be easily "refactored" -- ie dont make a process so complicated that someone else couldnt come behind you and toss it and replace it with something else. Basically a minimalist approach to development. Not the same thing as RAD, but both are intended to reduce development time.

[Goldstar]

Starwolf,

I've been following this thread, and I am very eager to see what you come up with. I have been looking for just such an application for my game.

I am a developer by trade, with experience in .NET and Java. I'd be glad to help you out anyway I can.

As far as suggestions go, I think all the major points have been addressed, but I would like to stress (for me) the importance of a good keyboard interface. If I am GMing, I'd like to be able to get to where I need w/o using a mouse for the most part, especially during combat.

BTW, out of curiosity, are you coding in .NET 1.1 or .NET 2 ?

Goldstar

[Starwolf]

When I start coding it will be in .net 2 using C# in VS 2003 Pro for an IDE. If the class allowed I would pursue development in a Java format for cross platform compatability, but I am constrained by school requirements. My professor announced to day that he wil have our grades on the story boarding and Psuedo-code on Friday so I should be able to post prelim interface screen shots this weekend.

I agree that all features should be accessible via keyboard and or shortcut keys.

[zornwil]

Any updates whatever happened to this?

[mvoncannon]

I noticed you have several programmers / developers chime in, plus plenty of offers to play test it. I offer my professional testing services (I do this for a living [15+ years]) at no cost. Since you are using .NET (C# to be precise), I am able to test this using a variety of tools. Trust me when I say it is the little things that bite devs in the rear.

I like what I am seeing as a list of requirements and features. I do hope you get this project off of the ground.

[Starwolf]

I still plan on finishing the project but the urgency went away so it got pushed to the back burner. As I initially mentioned it was a project for a college class. Well, the instructor noticed that well over 50% of the class was having a problem even picking a project let alone start to work on it, so he backed off and had us work on a group project instead. We wound up making a user interface for a custom recipe database. It turned out nice but I was dissapointed. However as I stated above I still plan on getting this going. Right now I have a lot on my plate but I have scheduled myself to return to work on this by mid to late October. Right now I am starting my new semester at school, and I am the middle of creating a web based members database for the AZ local 485 movie makers union. They have contracted with me to create the database and website, then act as webmaster... and it's a paying gig. I am really jazzed as this is my first professional job for pay as a burgeoning software developer... :)

[zornwil]

Congrats!

[schir1964]

Just wanted to add that if you need any help with the Creation Workshop / Metacreator formats or output, just contact me.

- Christopher Mullins (Designer of Hero 5th Edition Template for Metacreator)

[Starwolf]

Thanks, I will keep that in mind when I reach that point.