Martial Arts versus Powers

[JadeAvenger]

Howdy HEROphiles,

One of the players in our group wants to make a Martial Artist-type character, and he was asking me "What's the difference between spending points on Martial Arts or just buying those attacks as Powers?" (probably as a part of a multipower...)

I'm still relatively new to HERO, so I have difficulty formulating my response as concisely as I'd like, and there are certain aspects I'm not 100% sure of myself. Would anyone be willing to clarify some of the reasons you might take one over the other? Or how you might pick a balance of both?

it seems to me that Martial Arts are good for enhancing a character's options in combat, and tend to cost less than Powers, use less END, and especially when combined with "Use Art with X(Blades, Chains, etc) provide for some flexibility during a melee.

Powers are good for achieving very specific results: A Whirlwind attack that knocks your enemies down (Autofire or AoE), Esoteric Pressure Point Locks (Entangles), or even Ch'i Blasts (EB, etc). But once you buy a Power, it always works one way, (unless you buy Variable Advantage) so you lose some flexibility, but you tend to have more powerful abilities.

But then, I have seen some writeups where ALL Martial Arts abilities are written up as Powers. :D

oh, and if you buy a MA Manuever, Say "Martial Strike" can / do you combine it with a HA Power that you built?

Thanks much for any and all comments & suggestions!

JadeAvenger

[Sean Waters]

Welcome, Jade Avenger! I think the answer may be along the lines of 'it depends'...

MArts are good at some things that powers are not good at, and I'm thinking throws here, and certain types of multiple limb grab. More straightforward damage oriented MArts can probably best be simulated with powers.

To an extent it depends what you want to spend, as, after a point, there is little utility in further expenditure on MA Manouvres: once you have throw, block, dodge, Off Strike, Def Strike, and a cople of wrasslin' moves you're tapped out, and you'll be spending on increased DCs and skill levels.

Of course if you have enough points you can do both....:)

[ghost-angel]

You can combine Hand Attacks and Martial Arts.

MArts a good at simulating someone's who's skilled at combat, Powers are good for someone who is inherently, well, powerful.

Both have merits - I'd just buy MAs as MAs because why bother recreating all those effects when the work is done for you - and cheaply.

[Sean Waters]

Martial Arts are also END-cheaper on a DC for DC basis, which may be a relevant consideration.

[Hyper-Man]

what they said

and...

Martial Arts can be used by normal humans with NCM (normal characteristic maximums) to reach near superhero levels of damage and effect. Attacks using them always do less knockback than an equivalent amount of damage from straight STR for example. Their use also assumes that the character is not grabbed or entangled except for the obvious exception (escape).

HM

[Sean Waters]

Hyper-Man is quite right: you never run into a damage ceiling for doubling if you apply extra DCs to martial arts - they don't count in the calculation.

[JadeAvenger]

Very nice!

That answers my questions, I think. Thanks for the rapid responses :)

I'll pass this thread onto my buddy...
-JA

[prestidigitator]

Hyper-Man is quite right: you never run into a damage ceiling for doubling if you apply extra DCs to martial arts - they don't count in the calculation.
Or, more accurately, they count as Base Damage, so they actually increase the cap for the Doubling Rule. This and the fact that extra damage from Martial Arts ignores Advantages has the potential for creating some devastating attacks at low point values, so you should be a little wary of the use of Martial Arts with HAs and Advantaged attacks in general. If the player isn't attempting to powergame then this rarely comes up as an issue, though.

[Sean Waters]

Wise word there: I never really did understand why it wors that way....

[prestidigitator]

Wise word there: I never really did understand why it wors that way....
Yeah. I suspect it is so that you can build a martial artist who can be pretty effective without being incredibly strong (because Str usually supplies the Base Damage) or having superhuman powers (especially if you count the HA Power). The image of a frail old man who can whip out a toothpick and beat you senseless tends to be a rather popular one (and isn't completely without merit, either; some strength is necessary and helpful, but the body can be used in amazing ways even when it can't lift mountains).

[Sean Waters]

Yeah. I suspect it is so that you can build a martial artist who can be pretty effective without being incredibly strong (because Str usually supplies the Base Damage) or having superhuman powers (especially if you count the HA Power). The image of a frail old man who can whip out a toothpick and beat you senseless tends to be a rather popular one (and isn't completely without merit, either; some strength is necessary and helpful, but the body can be used in amazing ways even when it can't lift mountains).

it is not just the ramped up damage - I can sort of understand that - its the fact that you then get ramped up advantages for free that I was a little muzzy on the reasoning behind. I'm sure there is a good reason, that has been well thought through, though....:whistle:

[ghost-angel]

I was pretty sure Advantaged Attacks (STR or HAs) couldn't be more than doubled with MAs... but I'm too lazy to break out the book and look for it. I need the Combat Handbook for sure...

[Sean Waters]

I was pretty sure Advantaged Attacks (STR or HAs) couldn't be more than doubled with MAs... but I'm too lazy to break out the book and look for it. I need the Combat Handbook for sure...

You are quite right, but there is no limit on how much they can be increased by 4 point increased DCs, so a character with 10 points of armour piercing strength can do 4d6 AP with a martial strike OR an offensive strike (losing the top 2 DCs) BUT if they bought 10 increased DCs for their martial arts for 40 points they can do 14d6 AP. All for only 1 END.

Funny old game (assuming I have this right: I'm pretty sure i do)

[prestidigitator]

You are quite right, but there is no limit on how much they can be increased by 4 point increased DCs, so a character with 10 points of armour piercing strength can do 4d6 AP with a martial strike OR an offensive strike (losing the top 2 DCs) BUT if they bought 10 increased DCs for their martial arts for 40 points they can do 14d6 AP. All for only 1 END.

Funny old game (assuming I have this right: I'm pretty sure i do)
You have it right. Except with the +10 DCs the Offensive Strike can actually do 16d6, and either maneuver could increase to 24d6 (double 12d6) with CSLs and such (at least by default; the GM is well within his/her rights to smack that one down somehow IMO).

EDIT: Oh, but remember this still shouldn't go over a game's DC limits, if it has any; this may be good cause to install some. :)

[Sean Waters]

You have it right. Except with the +10 DCs the Offensive Strike can actually do 16d6, and either maneuver could increase to 24d6 (double 12d6) with CSLs and such (at least by default; the GM is well within his/her rights to smack that one down somehow IMO).


....because it adds to base damage: I keep on supressing the knowledge.:ugly:

[prestidigitator]

....because it adds to base damage: I keep on supressing the knowledge.:ugly:
Yeah. I know. BTW, I edited to add a P.S. above. Sorry about that. Bad habit.

[Dust Raven]

Hold on a sec...

Did this change in 5ER? In 5E, it specifically that if STR has an Advantage on it, any damage added to it (even from Martial Arts or other maneuvers) caused the entire attack to ignore the Advantage. So a character with 20 STR that is AP and an Offensive Strike can either to a normal Strike which will be 4d6 AP, or an Offensive Strike that will be 8d6 (no AP).

In 5E, the rule if found on page 272, midway down the second column.

[ghost-angel]

ok, pg 405 - the Extra DCs from Martial Maneuvers does not add to Base Damage - for these STR is the Base Damage, Martial Maneuvers can't more than double that. the example given is a 15 STR using Offensive Strike (STR + 4 DCs) for a total of 6D6 (double the damage of base STR).

Page 406 adds in DCs for Martial Maneuvers - these add directly to Base Damage for Unarmed Martial Maneuvers. The example they give is Killing Strike (2DCs) plus 2DCs for a base of 1D6, which can be doubled to 2D6 with STR, CSLs, etc...

I would assume then +1 DC as a Martial Maneuver, with 15 STR (3 DCs) using Offensive Strike (STR + 4 DCs) can do the full 8D6 Damage.

The passage Dust Raven quotes is on 5ER pg.409 and is the same text.

[zornwil]

If you check Steve's various answers, yes, Martial DCs for unarmed Martial Maneuver add to base damage, and in fact you may also note this is true EVEN with just a 1d6 Advantaged HA these simply add on. So you can exploit something here. However, I am allowing this with the proviso you have to make a DEX roll at -1 per DC greater than the doubling from that base WITHOUT Martial DCs.

[BNakagawa]

Howdy HEROphiles,

One of the players in our group wants to make a Martial Artist-type character, and he was asking me "What's the difference between spending points on Martial Arts or just buying those attacks as Powers?" (probably as a part of a multipower...)


Martial arts maneuvers are cheaper, but you can't put power limitations or advantages on them.

[Lord Mhoram]

....because it adds to base damage: I keep on supressing the knowledge.:ugly:

Suppress, Boecv, self only... ?

[Bloodstone]

Martial arts maneuvers are cheaper, but you can't put power limitations or advantages on them.

Sure you can. See UMA p104

[Rapier]

Wise word there: I never really did understand why it wors that way....

Well, I've always thought it offered a way for agents to honestly threaten a hero. When Dr IronPants has 20 rPD/rED its gonna take some juice for your average police guy, martial artist or even flocks of specially trained snipers to get through his armour.

It also does help to enable some of the wuxia effects we have seen.

[Markdoc]

Actually I don't really like the standard martial arts rules - there are too many exceptions and 'gimme's built in and you can get some really wierd builds. So I encourage (but don't require) players to build martal arts with powers instead. Makes life easier all round - especially for wuxia games.

Linkage:
http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/martialarts.html

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Martial arts maneuvers are cheaper, but you can't put power limitations or advantages on them.

You can, I think, but you don't need to, if the base strength has an advantage (or a small MP of naked advantages if you really want to take the mickey) martial arts (and damage classes) 'adopt' the advantages for free.

Thus you can buy (for example) martial arts for 10 points, including (say) a martial strike (+2DC). Now assuming you buy area effect (radius) personal immunity NND does BODY 0 END and, say, autofire/5 as a naked advantage on your 5 strength for 24 points, and then blow another 24 points on +8 DCs with martial arts, your punch will AVERAGE 193 stun and 55 BODY against everyone around you, and all for 58 points and a cost of 0 END, so you can do it all day.

Now that sounds like a duly considered rule to me. Balanced. Finely crafted.

These wuxia games everyone keeps thinking this rule is good for must be very SHORT....

[zornwil]

I still base Martial Maneuvers on STR cost, as in the earliest HERO editions, for superhero games (not heroic). But I do it as each 5 points in maneuvers is a +1/4 Advantage to STR. So a 10 STR character gets it cheap, a 20 STR pays the same price, greater pays proportionally more.

[JmOz]

One of my favorite MA I ever made combined both a small MP (25 Active Points) of moves and a small MA package (10 Points), Plus a couple of skill levels in DCV. Really made him shine...

Seeker

Player:

Val Char Cost
20/35 STR 10
29 DEX 57
20 CON 20
15 BODY 10
13 INT 3
12 EGO 4
15 PRE 5
12 COM 1

10 PD 0
10 ED 0
6 SPD 21
8 REC 0
40 END 0
35 STUN 0

6" RUN 0
2" SWIM 0
5"/10" LEAP 0
Characteristics Cost: 131

Cost Power
1 Strong Leaper: Leaping +1" (5"/10" forward, 2 1/2"/5" upward)
25 Kung Fu: Multipower, 25-point reserve
1u 1) Martial Strength: +15 STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4)
2u 2) Knife Hand Strikes: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (2d6 w/STR), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points)
2u 3) Piercing Blow : Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6 (1d6+1 w/STR), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points)
1u 4) Ghost Palm: HA +2d6, Affects Desol One Special Effect of Desolidification (spirits) (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) (22 Active Points); HA (-1/2)
2u 5) One Thousand Strikes: HA +2d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1) (25 Active Points); HA (-1/2)
1u 6) The Throwing Strike : HA +2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Double Knockback (+3/4) (22 Active Points); HA (-1/2)
2u 7) Tien-hsueh Strike: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), No Normal Defense ([Standard]; +1) (25 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)
2u 8) Block: Missile Deflection (Bullets & Shrapnel), Adjacent Hex (+1/2) (22 Active Points)
1u 9) Blinding Strike: Sight Group Flash 3d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)
1u 10) Wuxia Leaping: Leaping +2" (5"/10" forward, 2 1/2"/5" upward), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (3 Active Points)
Powers Cost: 41

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver
4 Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort
3 Legsweep: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, -1 DCV, 5d6 / 8d6 Strike, Target Falls
3 Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, 4d6 / 7d6 +v/5, Target Falls
Martial Arts Cost: 10

Cost Skill
10 +2 with DCV
3 Acrobatics 15-
3 Analyze: Combat 12-
3 Breakfall 15-
3 Climbing 15-
3 Contortionist 15-
10 Defense Maneuver I-IV
3 KS: Kung Fu 12-
2 Language: English (fluent conversation)
2 PS: Carpentry 11-
2 PS: Cooking 11-
3 Paramedics 12-
3 Sleight Of Hand 15-
6 WF: Common Martial Arts Melee Weapons, Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons
Skills Cost: 56


Cost Talent
12 Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED)
Talents Cost: 12

Total Character Cost: 250

Pts. Disadvantage
10 DF: Asian (Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses; Not Distinctive In Some Cultures)
15 DF: Style (Not Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
10 Hunted: Lloyd Gang 8- (As Pow, Harshly Punish)
20 Hunted: Imperial Guardsman 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, Harshly Punish)
15 Psych. Lim.: Code Vs. Killing (Common, Strong)
20 Psych. Lim.: Code of the Wuxia (Very Common, Strong)
10 Psych. Lim.: Looking for Child (Common, Moderate)
Disadvantage Points: 100
Base Points: 150
Experience Required: 0
Total Experience Available: 0
Experience Unspent: 0

Before I get hammered for the DF: Asian, it should be noted that this character is in the old west, where some descrimination was going to be common place, as the character would be more vulnerable to it than most I gave the disad, woman also took a similar one...

Background: The Legend of the Seeker is told among the Chinese imigrants in the west. The story as it is told is this: Back in China there was a boy who lived a poor but honest life for his first 12 years living with his uncle after his parents had died. His life changed forever when he saw a boy his age being attacked, his uncle had tought him Kung Fu and he used it to save the other lad.

The lad thanked him, and insisted that he have dinner with his parents, successful innkeepers in the city. This was the begining of a life long friendship. At 16 he was given a job at the inn and life was good for a year. Then his friend's parents introduced them to his friend's wife to be (An arranged marriage). The man who would become the seeker fell in love the minute he saw her, what was worse she loved him as well, and the friend did not.

The solution was easy, the marrige happened as planned, but every night she would sneek down the hall to be with her true love, with her husbands blessing (He was in love with a maid in the inn). This proceeded for a couple of years, until she got pregnant. The thought of seeing his child raised by another even his friend, made him run. After a couple of months however he returned to find the inn burned down, after asking around he found that the family had left for america after the fire to try to start a new life.

Now the man called Seeker looks for his family in America...

Personality: While he takes his quest very seriously most of the time he is a fun loving individual with a devil may care attitude. However he is dedicated to helping people in any way that he can

Quote: "I will help you"

[Gary]

Here's my alternative for martial arts:

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=707636#post707636

[Dust Raven]

If you check Steve's various answers, yes, Martial DCs for unarmed Martial Maneuver add to base damage, and in fact you may also note this is true EVEN with just a 1d6 Advantaged HA these simply add on. So you can exploit something here. However, I am allowing this with the proviso you have to make a DEX roll at -1 per DC greater than the doubling from that base WITHOUT Martial DCs.

I thought it was clear that you can't more than double the damge of an Advantaged HA. If added damge more than doubles the DCs, the Advantge is lost. Doesn't matter if it's STR or a maneuver that's giving it to you.

This is different than Advantaged STR though, which you can't add damage to at all without losing the Advantage for the attack.

[Sean Waters]

I thought it was clear that you can't more than double the damge of an Advantaged HA. If added damge more than doubles the DCs, the Advantge is lost. Doesn't matter if it's STR or a maneuver that's giving it to you.

This is different than Advantaged STR though, which you can't add damage to at all without losing the Advantage for the attack.

5ER martial DCs are ludicrously generous.

[Sean Waters]

Suppress, Boecv, self only... ?

That'll be the one :D

[Dust Raven]

In general, I prefer Martial Arts for heroic games or agents and the occasional super with some skill in hand to hand combat, and Powers for wuxia, superheroic games and while martial arts games. My favorite "generic" martial art for a super game is a Multipower with Desolidification (dodge), EB No Range (Strike), Entangle Based On EGO (attack is OCV vs DCV, Paralysis Strike), EB NND No Range (Nerve Strike) and STR No Figured Characteristics, Only To Grab/Throw (Grabs/Throws).


Howdy HEROphiles,

One of the players in our group wants to make a Martial Artist-type character, and he was asking me "What's the difference between spending points on Martial Arts or just buying those attacks as Powers?" (probably as a part of a multipower...)

I'm still relatively new to HERO, so I have difficulty formulating my response as concisely as I'd like, and there are certain aspects I'm not 100% sure of myself. Would anyone be willing to clarify some of the reasons you might take one over the other? Or how you might pick a balance of both?

it seems to me that Martial Arts are good for enhancing a character's options in combat, and tend to cost less than Powers, use less END, and especially when combined with "Use Art with X(Blades, Chains, etc) provide for some flexibility during a melee.

Powers are good for achieving very specific results: A Whirlwind attack that knocks your enemies down (Autofire or AoE), Esoteric Pressure Point Locks (Entangles), or even Ch'i Blasts (EB, etc). But once you buy a Power, it always works one way, (unless you buy Variable Advantage) so you lose some flexibility, but you tend to have more powerful abilities.

But then, I have seen some writeups where ALL Martial Arts abilities are written up as Powers. :D

oh, and if you buy a MA Manuever, Say "Martial Strike" can / do you combine it with a HA Power that you built?

Thanks much for any and all comments & suggestions!

JadeAvenger

[Dust Raven]

5ER martial DCs are ludicrously generous.

Then I'm a bit confused as to how. I know they add to base damage, but Advantages don't carry over with them. How is that ludicrously generous?

[Hyper-Man]

Then I'm a bit confused as to how. I know they add to base damage, but Advantages don't carry over with them. How is that ludicrously generous?

I agree with Dust Raven.

The base-damage rule is talking about unarmed martial arts. There is no specific ruling under advantaged HA's stating that the base level of the HA itself would be increased by added DC's from martial arts. It implies that the extra damage from MA's (maneuver and extra DC's) would be added the same way that STR would (that is up to equal the amount of advantaged HA damage).

see also:
http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/revisedrules/COMBAT%20AND%20ADVENTURING.htm

HM

[BNakagawa]

Sure you can. See UMA p104

Those 'rules' are

1: not in 5th ed.

2: associated with a STOP sign.

3: described as strictly optional.

4: Out Of Print.

When discussing system mechanics, I tend to ignore anything that falls into more than one of those categories.

[zornwil]

Then I'm a bit confused as to how. I know they add to base damage, but Advantages don't carry over with them. How is that ludicrously generous?
I'll find the quote from Steve. He indicated that, and I think he is correct, "by the rules", you can buy a 1d6 HA Armor Piercing Penetrating Double Knockback, add 20 Martial DCs, and they all get the benefit of that advantage.

[zornwil]

Here's a reference -

http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35429&highlight=martial+arts+advantage

[zornwil]

I agree with Dust Raven.

The base-damage rule is talking about unarmed martial arts. There is no specific ruling under advantaged HA's stating that the base level of the HA itself would be increased by added DC's from martial arts. It implies that the extra damage from MA's (maneuver and extra DC's) would be added the same way that STR would (that is up to equal the amount of advantaged HA damage).

see also:
http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/revisedrules/COMBAT%20AND%20ADVENTURING.htm

HM
The reference above is not the only example Steve has commented on. No matter how small or how advantaged the HA, Martial DCs add directly at full "face value' and unlimited.

[Hyper-Man]

The reference above is not the only example Steve has commented on. No matter how small or how advantaged the HA, Martial DCs add directly at full "face value' and unlimited.

I stand corrected.

I guess I'll pay attention to this one (Martial Arts interacting with advantaged HA's) in the same way that I do the current Find Weakness and Hit Location Rules.

:cool:
HM

[Dust Raven]

Here's a reference -

http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35429&highlight=martial+arts+advantage

I stand corrected it seems.

A good thing I don't consider the FAQ nor Steve's interpretation of the rules to be considered rules themselves. His statement above clearly contradicts the rules presented in the book.

[zornwil]

I stand corrected it seems.

A good thing I don't consider the FAQ nor Steve's interpretation of the rules to be considered rules themselves. His statement above clearly contradicts the rules presented in the book.
Well, at the risk of haggling, but from reading the section in 5ER, specifically, it seems to say the same thing regarding adding Martial DCs.

"Any Extra DCs that increase an unarmed Martial Maneuver's damage count as base DCs." coupled with the section on how Martial Maneuvers add to Advantaged attacks without regard to those Advantages (i.e., they add straight on top).

And to be fair, he's interpreting the book he wrote.

That being said, I'm not suggesting you're necessarily wrong to call the logic flawed and that it shouldn't be a rule.

[zornwil]

See also - http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35533

In which case Steve is fairly firm about how he sees it proceeding from the book, even though he's brief. I don't see anything in the book that seems counter to what Steve says.

That being said, I think it's a dangerous rule as is. Whether curbing it by doubling or curbing it by some other method, it's probably in order. As I mentioned elsewhere, I impose basically a DEX RSR on these constructs.

[Markdoc]

And this kind of silliness is why I prefer buy martial arts as powers!

I agree while Steve/ the rules appear to be consistent on this, it is one of the things that when I noticed it, got red-pencilled in my book. Adding to base damage is bad (especially when martial arts are used with KA's in heroic level games which is what I mostly run) - allowing them to be added without pro-rating is not only bad, but makes no sense at all in the context of Hero system.

cheers, Mark

[Thia Halmades]

Sorry, someone said UMA (5th) is out of print - does any one know why? Is it just 'out of its current run' or is it flat out of print? That's an important question, because I don't want to pick it up if it isn't going to do me any good. That being said.

Good morning.

I think I understand that the current state of the discussion is that an Advantaged HA using MArts rules can go beyond the doubling rule, yeah? That you can exceed the base damage of your attack? My primary question would be, what's the base? If STR is the base, then there's an extent to which this makes sense, because if you're using NCM than you'll never have more than 8d6 HA or a 2d6 & 1/2d6 HKA. Yucky.

However, I agree with Markdoc that the whole thing is much more easily solvable buying it as powers (whether in or out of a framework) because in a sense, especially in a Wuxia campaign, that's what they are. See Jade Empire for a decent example of this 'in action.' If you haven't played Jade Empire, rent it, because the system is flawed and there are a couple of game-breaking combos in there that once you have them, it's almost impossible to not use them. Kind of frustrating, because I was hoping it would be more challenging.

Where was I? Oh yes.

I just built a 250 MArtist based on Street Fighter because those are my roots; I purchased his Ch'i as an EC, and built in some standard moves as special effects (An HA with Autofire that acted as his "spinning kick" - for those who've played Street Fighter, this is a standard Ryu/Ken/Chun-Li manuever), a 4d6 RKA for his Shinjin Hadoken and a 12d6 Autofire 2" Hex Radius HA for his Shinjin Hadoiken-Drugan (sp). Worked out nicely. Also had a nice straight 8d6 Hand Attack, but hadn't figured out how to build his Shoryuken in a way that I liked yet.

A little super leap, a little Ch'i healing, he was ready to rock. And built the whole mess in NCM. With that build, how do y'all think that UMA or Steve would've interpreted the construction? Valid? Invalid? Good? What would you guys do for the Dragon Punch?

[ghost-angel]

Sorry, someone said UMA (5th) is out of print - does any one know why? Is it just 'out of its current run' or is it flat out of print? That's an important question, because I don't want to pick it up if it isn't going to do me any good.
And why wouldn't it do you any good? It still has useful information.

BTW: UMA is available as a PDF in the Online Store for $16. While Hard Copy may not come back into print due to lack of demand the Soft Copy will always be available.

Dust Raven: Steve doesn't contradict the book with regards to Martial Damage Classes, they add directly to Base Damage, regardless of Advantages. That applies only to unarmed Martial Maneuvers.

[Thia Halmades]

PDF doesn't do me any good without a PC in my house. :) I need a nice, normal hard copy of the b3wk.

[ghost-angel]

PDF doesn't do me any good without a PC in my house. :) I need a nice, normal hard copy of the b3wk.
Buy it and print it at work.

[Lucius]

The Ultimate Martial Artist is out of print??!

I'm sure glad I got my copy!

Lack of demand? How can there be a lack of demand for it?

Is any of the same information in other books I don't know about?

Lucius Alexander

Let's see, Palindromedary Riding Skill, Animal Handler: Palindromedary.......

[Hyper-Man]

Hi all,

I was doing some research in my well worn copy of UMA today and found this usefull tidbit on page 101.



Extra DCs add to damage from martial arts maneuvers. They add both to armed and unarmed martial arts maneuvers. If the maneuver is a fist punch, Extra DCs apply; if the maneuver is a Martial Strike requiring the use of a sword, Extra DCs apply.
They do not add to any other sort of damage: not to damage used with non-martial arts maneuvers, not to unarmed attacks bought with the HA or HKA Powers, and so forth.

Seems like a case of SFX being very important.

BTW, I am not sure if any of this was changed with 5ER. I wonder if the new Combat Handbook addresses this at all?

[AmadanNaBriona]

The Ultimate Martial Artist is out of print??!

I'm sure glad I got my copy!

Lack of demand? How can there be a lack of demand for it?

Is any of the same information in other books I don't know about?

Lucius Alexander

Let's see, Palindromedary Riding Skill, Animal Handler: Palindromedary.......
I am confused about this too...
I consider UMA to be a VITAL sourcebook, and when I discovered it was OOP, I immediately went and hunted down a copy, even tho I figured that it was mostly unchanged from 4th Ed.
IF the pertinent info was reproduced in the Comabt Handbook, then I can see how it could be considered reduntant tho, especially with Ninja Hero also floating around. I was a bit disappointed that the two got split up. UMA could've gone into a LOT more detail about mutliple genre applications of Martial Arts tha they did.

ON the original topic of the thread... I like to use MA rather than powers, but I agree that things have gotten a bit wonked, balance-wise.

[Dust Raven]

I wasn't aware that UMA was out of print either. Hard to believe really. I figured that all of the Ultimate Books would remain in print... well forever really. Especially the UMA. I'm in the group who thinks it's vital. Hell, most of the rules in there should have been in the core book in my opinion (would have saved me of buying the book if they were, so maybe not good for DOJ).

[pinecone]

Add me as a "Me too!" vote on UMA...I like MA moves ...but at the champs level a Multi-fu is usaully a better way to go...I use both ways ...about 50/50..

[zornwil]

People may want to bring this up in the "Company" forum and let DOJ know directly. :)

[ParitySoul]

Besides another 'me too' on the reprint/revision of UMA I find this thread interesting. But ever since my mentor GM showed me his Martial Artists built totaly from powers, the dividing line between the two has blurred heavily these days.

[Hyper-Man]

Hi all,

I was doing some research in my well worn copy of UMA today and found this usefull tidbit on page 101.

Extra DCs add to damage from martial arts maneuvers. They add both to armed and unarmed martial arts maneuvers. If the maneuver is a fist punch, Extra DCs apply; if the maneuver is a Martial Strike requiring the use of a sword, Extra DCs apply.
They do not add to any other sort of damage: not to damage used with non-martial arts maneuvers, not to unarmed attacks bought with the HA or HKA Powers, and so forth.


Seems like a case of SFX being very important.

BTW, I am not sure if any of this was changed with 5ER. I wonder if the new Combat Handbook addresses this at all?

Just a reminder to all, Steve just verified in the rules thread (link here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39575))that the above rule still stands. The major consequence of this that might not be aparent at first glance is that a Martial Artist who buys an unarmed HA with or without advantages will not be able to add any Martial Maneuver damage including Extra Damage Classes to the HA damage. That means that any special attack that takes advantage of both HA and bonus MA DCs must be (through) some type of focus.

HM

[zornwil]

Just a reminder to all, Steve just verified in the rules thread (link here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39575))that the above rule still stands. The major consequence of this that might not be aparent at first glance is that a Martial Artist who buys an unarmed HA with or without advantages will not be able to add any Martial Maneuver damage including Extra Damage Classes to the HA damage. That means that any special attack that takes advantage of both HA and bonus MA DCs must be some type of focus.

HM
Can't you add a HA (Advantaged or not) to a Martial Maneuver?

Anyway, to help clarify I posed another question to Steve.

[Lucius]

Well, I did start a thread in Company Questions about the Ultimate Martial Artist. If anybody wants to weigh in, go ahead, especially if you DON'T have Ultimate Martial Artist but WANT to. You'll also see the reason why *I* think it's such a vital resource.

Lucius Alexander

Did the palindromedary eat my tagline?

[Dr. Anomaly]

I'm really surprised to hear that UMA is out of print; I thought it was one of the most popular books/genres out there...I'm glad I got mine when I did! I don't use it terribly often (it's infrequently that I have a player who wants to play a martial artist, and I don't usually design them for NPCs) but when I do have to build a martial artist, that book's invaluable. Guess I better hop on over to Company Questions and post something to Lucius' thread.

On the original subject of the thread...

When building super-martial-artists, I tend to use a mix of martial arts manuevers and powers, freely intermixed. For example, one PC martial artist wanted a way to take out a number of thug-level opponents, scattered across an area, while leaving other people in the area (like hostages at gunpoint) untouched. I eventually built the 'manuever' ("Dragon Harvests the Pernicious Reeds") using an Energy Blast with AoE: Any Area, Selective Target, No Range, Must be able to physically walk/jump to each hex in which an attack is to be carried out. The special effect was Hidden Dragon bounding around through the area, kicking/punching/chopping the targets she chose, ignoring innocent bystanders, and winding up back in the same place she started.

So mixing both works best for me. Sometimes, the martial manuevers themselves are ready-made packages, without having to build the effect of a martial manuever with Advantages, Limitations, Skill Levels, Negative Skill Levels, and so on. Other times, when you want to replicate something rather astounding from a movie, Powers are definitely the way to go.

[ghost-angel]

Steve's answer to Zornwil's question should put the whole thing to rest regarding Advantaged HA and Matial Maneuvers..

According to Steve the HA adds to the Martial Maneuver, without the Advantages. And I'm good with that.

[zornwil]

I think what started the confusion was an answer Steve gave to Prestidigitator a long time ago, and the IMPLICATION but not the actual statement made people think it worked differently (including me). Anyway, it's cleared up now.

[Dust Raven]

That means that any special attack that takes advantage of both HA and bonus MA DCs must be (through) some type of focus.

HM

This is, of course, crap. No one puts a Limitation on a Power to give it more utility or allow it to do something new and special.

I'll have to check out these rules... page 101 you say?... and see if they really say this or just somehow imply it. I know Steve is just as fallable as the rest of us but I can't believe he'd have a lapse this large and actually put it in print.

[zornwil]

This is, of course, crap. No one puts a Limitation on a Power to give it more utility or allow it to do something new and special.

I'll have to check out these rules... page 101 you say?... and see if they really say this or just somehow imply it. I know Steve is just as fallable as the rest of us but I can't believe he'd have a lapse this large and actually put it in print.
I think Steve's answer to my last question implies that GM permission is suitable according to SFX, vide the comment he makes about whether the 1d6 HA should be added to the main attack.

[Dust Raven]

This is, of course, crap. No one puts a Limitation on a Power to give it more utility or allow it to do something new and special.

I'll have to check out these rules... page 101 you say?... and see if they really say this or just somehow imply it. I know Steve is just as fallable as the rest of us but I can't believe he'd have a lapse this large and actually put it in print.

I reread those rules, double and tripple checking. I also rechecked the rules for adding damage. No reference is given to foci. The only restriction I can find concerning Martial DCs is that they must add to Martial Arts Maneuvers. I did find that HAs and HKAs can also add to Martial Arts Maneuvers (again, no focus restrictions). What the book doesn't do is defind what an "armed attack" is, in game mechanics. All it says is weapon. I've found write-ups for all kinds of weapons, some are built as foci, some aren't. My best guess is that any Attack Power that adds to damage (or acts as base damage) is considered an "armed attack" and is treated as such when applied to Martial Arts. Whether or not there is a Focus Limitation involved is irrelevant.

Therefore I think the rules aren't crap, and that you just add the damage as you would normally, and the Focus Limitation applies to the part of the damage that was bought with it and that's it.