Quick Question

[rayoman]

There is a character in my Champions campaign that the player wanted to have the ability to have the character's tentacles grab or attack multiple opponents. I tried to accomodate the player by adding in a naked Area Effect advantage with Selective for his STR plus the added damage from his Martial Manuevers. My question is thus:

The Area Effect, Selective allows the character to grab or affect multiple opponents, correct? Can the character apply a total of 13d6 damage to four opponents (he has four tentacles) or 13d6 per opponent per tentacle or he can affect a single target four times doing 13d6 each?

Thanks.

Ray

[Trained Chicken]

The latter makes more sense to me, however, I would limit him to the former since that construction is pretty degenerate on its face.

[Derek Hiemforth]

The Area Effect, Selective allows the character to grab or affect multiple opponents, correct?Yes.

Can the character apply a total of 13d6 damage to four opponents (he has four tentacles) or 13d6 per opponent per tentacle or he can affect a single target four times doing 13d6 each?He would do 13d6 to each affected opponent. He could not affect the same opponent more than once unless he did something like a Sweep or a Multiple Power Attack.

[rayoman]

Thanks for the help./

[Doc Democracy]

This is a classic case of for a two slot multipower.

If attacking multiple people then he should use his area effect and if attacking a single person multiple times then switch to the autofire.

If he wanted to attack two people multiple times then I might allow him to use his area effect with rapid attack (I think that's right) same power fired twice up to an agreed maximum (for the number of tentacles).


Doc

[Dust Raven]

While the AE Selective is a creative build, I would not have use it unless the character's tenticles can never be combined to attack the same target.

I would have gone with Rapid Attack (HTH), which makes a Sweep maneuver take only half a phase, and some levels with Sweep, a +2 for each tenticle after the first. So for 4 tenticles, he's have a +6. with Sweep. Alternately, I'd just buy a +6 with tenticles (probably a 3 point level) which would make him extremely accurate if he concentrated on a single target using a single tenticle, but still able to hit multiple targets, or a single target multiple time, if he used more than one.

The only drawback to this is the 1/2 DCV from performing a Sweep. The them's the breaks for doing your full damage more than once per phase.

[ghost-angel]

I can't help but think there could be a way to construct this with Extra Limbs and a specialized Martial Maneuver or some other standard Maneuver ... It came up once in one of our games and we managed to model it, but I can't remember how for the life of me.

[PhilFleischmann]

I'd do it as Dust Raven suggests: Rapid Attack (optional) and Levels (or PSLs) with Sweep. You can also buy some DCV Levels "only to counteract the 1/2 DCV penalty of Sweep" if you like.

The AE method is legal, but it technically means you can attack anyone/everyone within the area, even if there are more than 4 of them. I suppose you could limit the AE to "No more than 4 targets" but that gets kind of klunky. What would the value be? How often are there more than 4 targets in the area?

Note also that AE gives you a little bit of range (whatever the radius is), but RA/Sweep doesn't, so you'll need to buy a few inches of Stretching. Fortunately, there are some limitations you can apply. Let's see 13d6 AE would give you a 7" radius, so you'd need 6" of Stretching (since you can already make HtH attacks into adjacent hexes). That's a base of 30 points, to which you can apply No Non-combat Stretching, No Added Momentum Damage, maybe Only for Attacks, etc., so you can reduce this price to 15-20 points or possibly even less.

[Erkenfresh]

If he's got 25 STR, I think this would do it:

Tentacle attack: Hand-To-Hand Attack +8d6, Area Of Effect (4" Any Area; +1), Selective (+1/4) (90 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) (Real Cost: 60 points)

[Erkenfresh]

One more revision, this is without Selective. When you define the power, you also define it's shape. Since the hexes in Any Area must all be touching, it would be an arc centered around Octo-Man. He's have to be careful when he used it but to avoid hitting an ally he could simply turn his back towards his friend when he does it (at which point he probably doesn't need to use this power anyway).

Tentacle attack: Hand-To-Hand Attack +8d6, Area Of Effect (4" Any Area; +1) (80 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) (53 Real Cost)

[Roland]

How does Hand-to-Hand Attack limit a Hand-to-Hand Attack? Why is it worth -1/2?

[Erkenfresh]

I dunno, it just is. Read the power in Fred. You get it for free. ;)

[ghost-angel]

How does Hand-to-Hand Attack limit a Hand-to-Hand Attack? Why is it worth -1/2?
It's based on STR and EB. Energy Blast being 5 points per Ranged D6, and STR being 5pts per "HtH D6 + a whole buncha stuff!" so why would anyone take a HtH Attack at 5pts when you could either a) Buy 5pts of STR and get the PD/STUN/REC/Lift/etc... or b) Buy Energy Blast, No Range.

Since No Range on EB is priced at -1/2 it seemed fair and logical to price Hand Attack Only at -1/2 and require it for every D6 of HA purchased.

That help?

[Dust Raven]

How does Hand-to-Hand Attack limit a Hand-to-Hand Attack? Why is it worth -1/2?

Effectively what ghost-angel said. It's equivilant to a No Range Limitation, at least in value. It's one part of the mechanics that doesn't seem to fit quite right, but works just fine.

[Roland]

It's based on STR and EB. Energy Blast being 5 points per Ranged D6, and STR being 5pts per "HtH D6 + a whole buncha stuff!" so why would anyone take a HtH Attack at 5pts when you could either a) Buy 5pts of STR and get the PD/STUN/REC/Lift/etc... or b) Buy Energy Blast, No Range.

Since No Range on EB is priced at -1/2 it seemed fair and logical to price Hand Attack Only at -1/2 and require it for every D6 of HA purchased.

That help?

The default advantage of EB is that it has range. The default advantage of HtH is that STR adds to it. It makes sense that No Range is a -1/2 limitation on EB, since that gives you, essentially, a HtH attack that you cannot add STR to. But it appears to me that Erkenfresh's proposed HtH Attack is STR+8d6. He pays for the +1.25 AE Selective advantage only on the +8d6 and effectively gets it on his STR for free. That's why one might want to buy a HtH Attack instead of buying STR with a naked advantage.

[Roland]

Okay, I read up on HtH Attack in 5E, and I think I get it now. The fact that it adds to STR is a two-edged sword - both an advantage and a limitation. It is a limitation because you can use HtH only with STR, whereas you can use EB (even with the No Range limitation) in situations where you cannot use STR.

I also compared to 3E and 4E. In 3E, it appears HtH did not exist. In 4E, it was only 3 points per d6, so it is actually a bit more expensive in 5E.

When my copy of 5E Revised arrives, maybe I'll keep the old 5E at the office so I can look up these things when I'm near my computer.

[rayoman]

While the AE Selective is a creative build, I would not have use it unless the character's tenticles can never be combined to attack the same target.


I am eliminating the area of effect and the autofire slot from his MP. I am going to give him (the player wants the ability but doesn't want to read how to build it) Rapid Attack(HTH) and maybe some CSLs for removing some of the penalty from Sweep.

I got the opportunity to play Whiplash this weekend as an NPC and he is very effective with the equivalent of 55 STR (35 STR plus Martial Manuevers) and 15" of Stretching.

[rayoman]

I'd do it as Dust Raven suggests: Rapid Attack (optional) and Levels (or PSLs) with Sweep. You can also buy some DCV Levels "only to counteract the 1/2 DCV penalty of Sweep" if you like.



agreed. I came up with the idea to just make him use Sweep, Rapid Attack and CSLs with Sweep after I played the character on Sunday.

Thanks for the constant input guys.

Merry Christmas to All.

[rayoman]

Tentacle attack: Hand-To-Hand Attack +8d6, Area Of Effect (4" Any Area; +1) (80 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) (53 Real Cost)

Hoenstly, Sweep is the way to go, IMO. I have to agree with Dust Raven and Phil especially after playing the character. The character is highly effective as he is though the player usually just grabs and squeezes people. Just wait until he comes up against the guy that shrug his grabs off with casual STR. :eg: :sneaky: :eg:

Oh, Erkenfresh, I think we have a friend in common. I sent you a PM.

[rayoman]

I also compared to 3E and 4E. In 3E, it appears HtH did not exist. In 4E, it was only 3 points per d6, so it is actually a bit more expensive in 5E.

Actually, the 4E and the 5E versions of HTH Attack are priced the same. There is a mandatory limitation for HTH Attack that is a -1/2 limitation.

5 pts base cost / 1.5 = 3.3333333333333333 which rounds to 3.

Technically the 4E version of HTH Attack is more expensive because there is a minimum cost of 6 pts which is +2d6. Fred has not such minimum cost unless imposed by the GM.

[stan da ork]

Hand Attack does not cost the same in 4th and 5th - in 5th it is more expensive. You only round once, not for each die purchased, so each die costs 3.3, not 3. If you buy three dice of HA in 4th, it costs 9 points. If you buy three dice in 5th, it costs 10. The price disparity goes up as you add Limitations, as well, because the diminishing returns of Limitation stacking hits the 5th version of HA earlier than the 4th. Each die of HA in 4th bought through an OAF costs 1.5. Each die of HA in 5th bought through an OAF costs 2. That means for a 6d6 HA weapon, you pay 9 points in 4th and 12 points in 5th. The power in 5th costs 25% more than the power in 4th.

[Sean Waters]

It is not a point efficient build but I like to make tentacled monstrosities using TK rather than strength, extra limbs and stretching or AOE. You can limit the range of the TK with a -1/4, and it allows you to have limbs hacked through without the base character dropping from BODY loss. The tentacles bit is just sfx, really. Good for big nasty villain monsters; very cinematic.