Good Concepts, Bad Characters

[Trained Chicken]

There are a lot of DC and Marvel characters (well, mainly DCs) with cool powers, or a cool costume, cool name, or a cool backstory... and absolutely nobody has the slightest clue how to write them... or else, didn't for a long time before anyone figured out how to use them. (I'll leave Image out since they don't use writers.) Hawkman, Starman, Moon Knight, Darkhawk, Metallo, those Serpent Society losers, the Slug, the Ray, Amazo, Paladin (Marvel), Mysterio, Quicksilver, Damage all come to mind.

What characters are disappointments to you, and (if it isn't immediately obvious,) why?

[Log-Man]

There are a lot of DC and Marvel characters (well, mainly DCs) with cool powers, or a cool costume, cool name, or a cool backstory... and absolutely nobody has the slightest clue how to write them... or else, didn't for a long time before anyone figured out how to use them. (I'll leave Image out since they don't use writers.) Hawkman, Starman, Moon Knight, Darkhawk, Metallo, those Serpent Society losers, the Slug, the Ray, Amazo, Paladin (Marvel), Mysterio, Quicksilver, Damage all come to mind.

What characters are disappointments to you, and (if it isn't immediately obvious,) why?
Hell, after a recent thread, Graviton. I thought he never made it big because he died. Nope, just in villain limbo. That's sad.

[OddHat]

All of them. Haven't enjoyed most main stream comics since the late 80s. Occasionally a good writer will come through and turn a character I couldn't give a damn about into something interesting; when and if I hear about it, I try to grab the TPBs.

[Jeff T.]

Black Panther, Shang-Chi, Black Lightning, Sunfire, Red Wolf, Darkstar, various others. Coincidentally, all minorities/non-Americans.

[Inu]

Black Panther
Have you read Christopher Priest's run?

[Hermit]

Monica Rambeau.

Fantastic and fairly original super power, good background (Lt in the New Orleans Harbor patrol), and ties to the Avengers. I found her to be a forceful personality without being obnoxious about it.

She moves faster than Quicksilver when he had his powers. Her blasts are as varied as any energy projector in the marvel universe, and she SHOULD have decent detective/police skills. Instead Marvel seems to think she is now only useful for giving up whatever name she had to another hero. She lost Captain Marvel, she lost Photon, and now she's Pulsar?

Now it seems they're going to play her up as some sort of gag character if I'm reading rumors right. *Sigh*

[Supreme Serpent]

Monica Rambeau.


Indeed. She's incredibly powerful and versatile. Could easily be in the first-rank of Marvel heroes, keeping up with a powerhouse Avengers lineup like Thor and Iron Man. Quite wasted in general.

[Jeff T.]

Also a minority. Coincidence?

[Hermit]

Also a minority. Coincidence?

That maybe a factor, though I don't think it is the only one. Some suggested that if anything she was too powerful. When asked about this, her creator, Roger Stern, wrote this on his message board:


It's certainly nice to hear that poeple are still talking about Monica after all these years...especially since she rarely appears anymore.

As for questioning whether Captain Marvel/Photon is too powerful to be a regular member of the Avengers...well, is Iron Man too powerful? Is Wonder Man? Thor? The Scarlet Witch?

Really, it CAN be done.

I'll grant you, Monica isn't easy to handle if you don't have a good background in science...and too few writers do.

-- Roger

It is possible that some writers don't want to deal with the headaches of the physics involved in her powers.

[Supreme Serpent]

Actually, I think a big part of it was that she was *too* powerful, while still being very down-to-earth. If she had a solo book, alot of the threats they'd have to throw at her would be Superman / Green Lantern level. Someone like Silver Surfer or Quasar who are clearly intended for being cosmic types are more suited to this. On her own, I think she would be out of place, but as part of the Avengers, I think she'd be perfect - immensely powerful person hanging out with legends and gods who still makes the time to zip back from Alpha Centauri in time to spend Thanksgiving with her dad. The powerful "everywoman" of the team.

Oh well.

[Hermit]

While some would frown on it, after they showed various Marvel heroes reacting to 9-11 , I think it would have only been fitting to have Monica struggling to deal with Hurricane Katrina's after effects. Heck, they could have shown her delving into it and trying to do something, anything, to stop it or at least lessen it. I think Marvel missed an oppurtunity somewhere there.

[Supreme Serpent]

And of course, we have to be careful what we wish for. Had some of these characters been more prominent in the last 10-15 years, they probably would have been cloned, had their backs broken, replaced by others using the same name in their own mag, had their history completely ignored, maimed, raped, etc. :rolleyes: But then, we're back at Oddhat's point. :mad:

Oh, I'll plug it again while I'm here - everyone go buy the new THING series! :D (hey, we need an orange rocky smiley)

[Hermit]

Oh, I'll plug it again while I'm here - everyone go buy the new THING series! :D (hey, we need an orange rocky smiley)

I'll second that. Bronze age goodness. Mmmm..

[Hermit]

Getting back to the subject, because I realize all I've posted is on one character being ill used, and seconding an excellent series:

The opening post mentioned the Serpent Society. Man, that was a great concept. A cadre of similarly themed villains who wisely formed a business relationship complete with perks of the job. I haven't seen them in forever, and regret Marvel seems to have abandoned them or reduced them to minor annoyances at best.

Mind you, I DON'T mind Diamondback being reformed like she was (Heck, she was good for Cap in someways), but she's just another character that isn't being used to her full potential imo. You'd think with groups like the Thunderbolts around she'd have a team to go to.

[Chuckg]

Diamondback was the best girlfriend Cap ever had. (I'm not really a fan of Sharon Carter, especially not since her being made over into an Iron Age character with all the rest of SHIELD.)

[Supreme Serpent]

The Serpent Society rocked. I loved the various "villain infrastructure" stuff that got developed over time - the Serpent Society, Taskmaster's schools for training goons and henchmen, Tinkerer repairing and upgrading villain gadgets, Justin Hammer bankrolling villains for a cut of the take and first call on services, things like that.

[Hermit]

The Serpent Society rocked. I loved the various "villain infrastructure" stuff that got developed over time - the Serpent Society, Taskmaster's schools for training goons and henchmen, Tinkerer repairing and upgrading villain gadgets, Justin Hammer bankrolling villains for a cut of the take and first call on services, things like that.


All great examples. Are any being used currently? Shame if not.

[Chuckg]

Taskmaster's given up teaching and is now an assassin-for-hire, and I haven't seen the rest in ages.

[Jeff T.]

Diamondback was the best girlfriend Cap ever had.

Seconded.

[Hermit]

Seconded.

I'm torn. I also liked Bernie
(And adored the "Bernie America" dream sequence) but Diamondback and she are tied for the top spot in my book. Either way, Diamondback is criminally underused and a missed opportunity

[Brandi]

I always thought Cypher had an intriguing power that nobody seemed to know what to do with.

[Chuckg]

Bernie wasn't, bad, but... ok, she was good for Cap in that she was the kind of girl he needed to be with at that point in his life, but she's *not* the girl he can hook up foreverlike with. They're just too far apart.

Rachel & Cap, OTOH, is a story that could have ended with a nice wedding and then decades of domestic bliss interspersed with supervillain punch-ups, if left undisturbed. :)

[Hermit]

I always thought Cypher had an intriguing power that nobody seemed to know what to do with.

it would take some searching, but there are some other threads on posts that agree with that. Someone pointed out that depending on how it was used by a writer, Doug could have done the Cassandra Cain Batgirl stuff as body language is a form of comunication.

[Inu]

it would take some searching, but there are some other threads on posts that agree with that. Someone pointed out that depending on how it was used by a writer, Doug could have done the Cassandra Cain Batgirl stuff as body language is a form of comunication.
Potentially, yeah. But even if he didn't do that, there are many things he could do that would be 100% within his powers. They just involve him not being a superhero. Imagine how effective he'd be at the UN? Or in any international body? He could revolutionise diplomacy overnight by creating 100% perfect translations of laws, treaties, documents... instead, he got shoved into a superhero comic, where he was out of place, and they had to invent situations where translation saved the world in order for him to seem half-way to a decent character. -.-

[Supreme Serpent]

If that same group didn't already have Illyana, Cypher would have made a terrifying mage. Find ancient text - look through it, understand how to do X, Y, and Z now. :eek:

"No, no...that can't be right...based on Z'khfonish grammar, the proper incantation to get the effect would be..."

[Trained Chicken]

Mind you, I DON'T mind Diamondback being reformed like she was (Heck, she was good for Cap in someways), but she's just another character that isn't being used to her full potential imo. You'd think with groups like the Thunderbolts around she'd have a team to go to.

Absolutely. Not only was Cap good for her, it showed how cool Cap can be. He was able to reform a supervillain with the power of his superb abs!

[Hermit]

Absolutely. Not only was Cap good for her, it showed how cool Cap can be. He was able to reform a supervillain with the power of his superb abs!

And they say comliness isn't a useful stat.

"Wait! Do I really want to do this to such a hunk--?" Diamondback(Captain America 313)

[Inu]

If that same group didn't already have Illyana, Cypher would have made a terrifying mage. Find ancient text - look through it, understand how to do X, Y, and Z now. :eek:

"No, no...that can't be right...based on Z'khfonish grammar, the proper incantation to get the effect would be..."
Heh! If only it had come after Buffy, he'd have been a mini-Giles. Neat.

[Trained Chicken]

I think it was a really crummy move to kill off Doug, even though I only knew him posthumously.

[Enforcer84]

I spend so much time complaining about comics..:D

He was written to die: Thunderbird. Wow, I mean he had the "Original Superman" powerset and was very cool indeed. His brother was given a fair shake but still.

Colossus. He's been around forever and he's basically used as a punching bag.

I vote too for Marvel's supervillain culture that has fallen by the wayside. I loved the set ups they had and my games still reflect that. I generally pull out clones of Taskmaster, the Tinker, Serpent Society, and The Farming system from Justin Hammer into my games at some point. It's more fun for me but it also makes some interesting moments for the players and some odd places to look for clues.

[Mutant for Hire]

Cypher's big problem was that he was introduced to the Marvel Universe about three or four years too early. If he came out after the Internet had hit the popular consciousness, he could have easily have become the Marvel Universe's Oracle.

And yes, he could have done the Cassandra-Batgirl business with a fluent mastery of body language.

He could have been an amazing magician. His ability to read magic texts was only tapped into once during the New Mutants go to Asgard storyline.

Lastly, he could have been a brilliant scientist. His ability to parse raw data of any sort, well, he could probably read DNA as well as raw data from scientific experiments of all sorts.

He could probably also 'read' the stock market and other financial data. The Inner Circle, not to mention a number of other people would be interested in that as well as his ability to read any encrypted data transmission straight.

In some ways he was actually more of a younger version of Charles Xavier, more set up for the Information Age, and they never figured this out.

[Trained Chicken]

In some ways he was actually more of a younger version of Charles Xavier, more set up for the Information Age, and they never figured this out.

So, you mean... heheh... the writers goofed up? Next thing you know, you'll be telling us they made Storm into a punk and took away her powers.

[proditor]

it would take some searching, but there are some other threads on posts that agree with that. Someone pointed out that depending on how it was used by a writer, Doug could have done the Cassandra Cain Batgirl stuff as body language is a form of comunication.
I got yer back, but then again, I was pretty sure I knew at least one guy who covered it. ;)

Cypher as a HTH wrecking machine:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=383397&postcount=2

[Log-Man]

I always loved the concept of Cypher. I would have loved to see him get a proper treatment. (Though I do not like the idea of him as a super martial artist.)

I second the notion of the supervillain culture, especially the Tinker. Great idea that I'd like to work into a game some time.

I hated Monica, though. I could never get past the hair.

[Trained Chicken]

Hawkman, Hawkwoman, Hawkgirl, and so forth- someone ought to shoot whoever decided to screw up their continuity past the point of no return. If all the DC reset maxiseries should be frowned upon for one reason, it's this: Nobody knows what the hell is going on with these characters anymore, and nobody seems to care.

[proditor]

I'll admit that part of the reason I went with the martial arts thing was I was tired of everyone in the new mutants basically treating him like the red-headed mutant stepchild. He was "Poor Doug" unless they needed something translated. And after the whole casino thing, I figured beatin' people would be a lock. ;)

[Log-Man]

I'll admit that part of the reason I went with the martial arts thing was I was tired of everyone in the new mutants basically treating him like the red-headed mutant stepchild. He was "Poor Doug" unless they needed something translated. And after the whole casino thing, I figured beatin' people would be a lock. ;)
Granted, the 'Poor Doug' thing needed a fix. Personally, I would go the Forge/gadgeteer route. He can make and use incredible things, but not really know why. After a few years, he gets some confidence and becomes team leader, operating in a Brainiac 5 type of capacity. Either that or he learns espionage and become the next James Bond. (Ok, taken to extremes :) )