He's twice the man you are! What is 2x normal STR? SPD? DEX?

[KA.]

Often you will see characters in the comics described as:
"Twice as Strong as a normal man"
or
"Three times the Speed of an average Human"

I would like to see if we could reach some sort of reasonable consensus, using the Hero System, on what these types of descriptions mean.

If you already have a system, let's hear it, and the justification behind it.

Otherwise, let's throw out ideas, Characteristic by Characteristic, until we have something that looks reasonable.

Let's set some values for normal, and decide what we would call them, or what CHAR we would think of if we saw "Twice as Fast as a Normal Man" in print:

STR 10 Strong
DEX 10 ?
CON 10 Tough
BODY 10 Hard to Kill
INT 10 Intelligent
EGO 10 Strong Willed
PRE 10 Impressive?
COM 10 Attractive

PD 2 ?
ED 2 ?
SPD 2 Fast
REC 4
END 20 Endurance
STUN 20 Hard to KO.

RUN 6" Run Fast
SWIM 2" Swim Fast
LEAP 2" High Jump

Also, if anyone knows how to format this into an actual table with columns that will work on the boards, that would be appreciated too.

Okay, the floor is open,

KA.

[John Desmarais]

Let's set some values for normal, and decide what we would call them, or what CHAR we would think of if we saw "Twice as Fast as a Normal Man" in print:
Twice as strong is pretty easy, if odd. Every 5 points of STR doubles the ammount you can lift. STR 15 is twice as strong as STR 10.

Twice as fast as normal is a bit more difficult to quantify, as speed (in Hero) is a rather abstract concept. If, however, what you really meen is the ability to run twice as fast as normal than it's easy. Run 12" is twice Run 6" as you cover twice the distance in teh same time period.

[Solomon]

I think those turn of phrases only mean what you want them to mean, and that depends on your campaign's specs. Blurb like "faster than a bullet!!!", "proportional strength of an arachnid!!!", or "peak human potential!!!" is just hype, it's meant to catch a reader's attention and it usually isn't an accurate portrayal of the character's abilities.

When I'm statting a character, I'm less interested in what the author says about the character, than in what the character is shown to be able to do.

[levi]

...Twice as fast as normal is a bit more difficult to quantify, as speed (in Hero) is a rather abstract concept. If, however, what you really meen is the ability to run twice as fast as normal than it's easy. Run 12" is twice Run 6" as you cover twice the distance in teh same time period.

Of course, even if both characters have 6" of Running and one has a 2 SPD while the other a 4 SPD, over a Turn the 4 SPD character will run twice as far in the same time span.

[GestaltBennie]

There's always been a disconnect between the doubling rule, the damage scale and common sense since Champions was first published.

I've seen other systems try to deal with the same problem, and I've yet to see a fix that I like that preserves the strengths of the Hero System. It's something I've learned to live with.

[Lord Liaden]

Of course, even if both characters have 6" of Running and one has a 2 SPD while the other a 4 SPD, over a Turn the 4 SPD character will run twice as far in the same time span.

He'll also tire out (burn END) twice as fast, too. These things have a way of balancing out in the end. :)

Strength is of course the easy one, in that the game gives you a specific measure of what STR relates to. The others are more abstract, though, and it's often hard to agree on what a particular stat actually means. After all, if we say that someone is "twice as fast as normal," are we talking about reaction time (DEX), actions they can take in a given time span (SPD), or how fast they can travel (Movement)? Again, SPD is relatively easy since each point of SPD adds X actions, so SPD 4 is twice as "fast" as SPD 2. Movement rate also progresses linearly. But DEX? CON? Ya got me. :think:

Then there's the question of the baseline to start from. A "normal" person is supposed to begin with 8s in Primary Characteristics, so the parameters that KA. started with are already "above average" strictly speaking. (No offense intended, KA.)

While I personally feel no need to quantify Characteristics in that way, if pressed for it I would probably start by following the pattern set for Strength, and say that every 5 points in a Primary Characteristic is a twofold increase, e.g. DEX 15 is twice as "agile" as DEX 10. I admit that I haven't thought through how to deal with Figured Characteristics, though.

[Lord Liaden]

There's always been a disconnect between the doubling rule, the damage scale and common sense since Champions was first published.

I've seen other systems try to deal with the same problem, and I've yet to see a fix that I like that preserves the strengths of the Hero System. It's something I've learned to live with.

Yep, it's the common problem of coordinating real life with playable game mechanics. And when you factor in simulations of situations that could never occur in real life (like many of the conventions of fantasy or supers), it becomes even more problematic... as many of the debates here have demonstrated. :rolleyes:

I would guess that any system that could adequately make the correspondences we've been discussing here, would need to have "twice as strong" or "three times as fast" as a quantified game mechanic built into the system, so that people who wanted to describe their characters that way could take such attributes when building them. I don't know whether any current or past game does that.

[OddHat]

For primary stats, I go by 8/13/18/23/28, etc.

A man with a STR of 23 is 8 times as strong as a normal man, and at 25 he has roughly the Strength of Ten Men! Anything beyond 30 is indisputably Superhuman. Looking at the records of the great strong men and World's Strongest Man winners, I think this is fairly reasonable. The "But he can push for 10 more STR" argument doesn't mean much to me; ordinary people can't push, and cinematic heroes do superhuman things all the time.

For "Twice as fast" I might go by DEX and MPH covered by running. If Zebediah Zip, King of Speed is "1000 times as fast as an ordinary man!", he has a massive 59 DEX and can keep up a running speed of at least 12000 mph; just how many inches per phase that comes to depends on his SPD score.

Mostly I see it all as hyperbole.

[Lord Liaden]

Great, now I won't be able to rest until I've statted up Zebediah Zip! ;)

[OddHat]

Great, now I won't be able to rest until I've statted up Zebediah Zip! ;)

Groovy. :)

I see him as a skinny old man in red long johns and maybe a mask. No cape; they tend to get caught in things. ;)