Religion Hero??

[kehrer1701]

IT seems like I have seen several RPG's over the past 2 years that were Role Playing with a religious theme. I am not sure that they were done very successfully as they flopped. I do, however, think there is a market for GOOD biblical RPG games...not necessarily placed in biblical times. Any thoughts??

[Lord Liaden]

Well, I have a lot of respect for Testament by Scott Bennie. IMHO it's well researched, historically and culturally accurate, and respectful of matters of real-world faith within a gaming context. If you're not familiar with it you can read about it on this webpage from the site of the publisher, Green Ronin Publishing:
http://www.greenronin.com/catalog/grr1019

Scott Bennie also happens to be one of Hero Games's top freelance writers, and recently shared his own rather detailed thoughts on translating the D20 Testament into HERO terms with us here on the discussion boards:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=915695

[kehrer1701]

Hmm, I don't remember Testament, but will look into it. Thanks for the info.



Well, I have a lot of respect for Testament by Scott Bennie. IMHO it's well researched, historically and culturally accurate, and respectful of matters of real-world faith within a gaming context. If you're not familiar with it you can read about it on this webpage from the site of the publisher, Green Ronin Publishing:
http://www.greenronin.com/catalog/grr1019

Scott Bennie also happens to be one of Hero Games's top freelance writers, and recently shared his own rather detailed thoughts on translating the D20 Testament into HERO terms with us here on the discussion boards:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=915695

[TheRavenIs]

Very intresting. I wonder just how it would feel. I did play in the late 80's in a DnD with a Christian background. It was fun and I did like it alot. It was a home-run idea of an friend of mine.

[Curufea]

It would be difficult, to say the least, to sell a religious roleplaying game - given the amount of bad press, and downright hate that roleplaying has taken from religious groups.

It would automatically start with levels of alienation inherent - there would be a very tiny market of what is already a small market (roleplaying games are nowhere near as popular as other kinds of games or books).

[gojira]

I think Hero would work well with a theme like In Nomine. The flexibility of character chreation would be a big boon to such a role playing game.

I think Steve Jackson Games has the license tied up, but a game like In Nomine shouldn't be hard to do.

Then there's also a religious cross-over like Babalyon 5. Science Fiction plus a war of good and evil. What more could you want?

[Curufea]

I don't actually see the Good vs Evil war in Babylon 5. There was a Chaos vs Order war, yes - and both sides were got rid of. But neither side was "Good"

[gojira]

I don't actually see the Good vs Evil war in Babylon 5. There was a Chaos vs Order war, yes - and both sides were got rid of. But neither side was "Good"

Oh. Well, I didn't watch the show religiously (a pun!) like some did. The first season, when Kosh did his angel stunt, I assumed it would go good vs. evil with the shadows being evil and all. I could even assert that good vs. evil is the same as order vs. chaos, philosophically speaking. But you probably know more about the direction the show actually took.

[Curufea]

It turned out that both sides were manipulative. It just that one portrayed itself with 'good' imagery and the other side didn't.

[kehrer1701]

With the success of LOTR, Chronicles of Narnia, Passion of Christ, the Left Behind series, etc...there seems to be a growing market.

[Curufea]

Just wait until a suicide is found to have once spent half an hour looking at the cover of a roleplaying book during a slow news week.

[daeudi_454]

With Biblical RPGs, you only have time periods:
Old Testament: Best suited for RPGs, very well done by Green Ronin.
New Testament: bad for RPGs, no one wants to play someone hiding, or fed to the lions.
Holy Roman Empire: maybe. Soldiers and priests fighting against the mythoi of barbarians? Maybe...
Medieval: Been there, done that. The religious aspect? The Crusades? no one wants to rehash that.
Modern: You know it, you live it. The problem? Modern Christianity. The RCC doesn't accept exorcism anymore. Plus the whole concept of violence seems to be verboten.

An RPG that includes all the major religions, and treats them equally? Will never happen.
A guaranteed flop, because no one would be happy. Even if you just used Jewish, Christian, and Islamic beliefs (all "people of the book") it would be a nightmare to write up, and even more difficult to sell.
========================
A side note: I would just love it if RPGs could be welcomed by places like Berean or Romar- it would expand the hobby. But based on the weak, lame, pathetic, (I'll stop, there are far too many adjectives for them) comic books I have seen in those stores, the only type of RPG that would be sold there is: one no one would want to play.

The only possible exception, and the only RPG I could see selling well, is Narnia. It has plenty of the elements gamers like, with a religious undertone that is deep and present, but not overbearing. The licensing might be a bear though.
<No offense to any Talking Bears :P>

[Dauntless]

Actually, I think a historic based religious based RPG would be a cool idea. Problem is, no one would want to play it. It will incense or at least alienate many Christians because it would make them question many theological issues they take for granted.

Imagine this for a roleplaying exercise. God, commands your forces (the Israelites) to massacre all the Sihonites. Every last man, woman, child, old man and oxen. Why? Because Yahweh told you to do it. Would you be able to do it (and yes, this isn't just a modern day way of thinking....conscience has been with man since the dawn of our consciousness). And yes, Yahweh did order on several occasions the massacre of several peoples (look at Numbers or Samuel).

Roleplaying exercise #2. The year is 325AD and the Synod at Nicea has convened, declaring Arianism, or the belief that Jesus is not of the same divine nature as God as heretical. You are ordered to sniff out any Arians and force them to denounce their belief...or to perish.

Roleplaying exercise #3. You meet a man who rescues you from certain death. While tending to your wounds, you notice in his belongings the scripture, The Gospel of Thomas...a known Gnostic teaching declared heretical. The man saved your life...what do you do?

Roleplaying exercise #4. Your king orders you and your men to attack his enemy in another province and to kill all of them, including the priest who has been agitating the other lord to move against your own lord. Where does your allegiance lie...to your lord and liege, or to your faith?

And these are but a few of the hundreds of scenarios I could think of. I didn't even touch anything about the Crusades or the Reformation which is ripe for ideas. How about any of the wars fought during this time period, like the English Civil War?

But it will not only make irate those who will not appreciate putting Christianity under a new light, it will also fail to attract those who aren't biased towards religion one way or the other. Most people are very wary of anything smelling of religion, because they are afraid of the hard sell.

I personally would like to see not just Christian themes covered, but anything with a religious overtone ala Battlestar Galactica. Religion is a very sticky topic though right now and there's definitely a Cold War being waged in this country over religious themes. So a game about religious themes and history could either be really hot, or it could blow up. I personally feel that we need to expose people to many religious themes so that they are exposed to more than just one dogmatic viewpoint (or none at all) precisely because of this Cold War that's going on. But like I said, it's a super-sensitive issue right now...so either way, you'd have to be careful

[kehrer1701]

I working on some ideas that would not involve "magic" stuff that might put off Christians or link it to other games that have been down cast in the past. But you are right, it is only going to market to some..but that's the way it is with every game. Some games are tailored to specific audiences. The trick is to combine elements that "might" attract people outside that target audience. Everyone will not be happy with it, not everyone will hate it.
Again this is all in the "early" stages of development...even brainstorming area. Input on this thread has definitely been helpful.

[Springald Jack]

Modern: You know it, you live it. The problem? Modern Christianity. The RCC doesn't accept exorcism anymore.


Actually That's not true it's just the church believes that cases of genuine possesion (and therefore the need for excorcism) is very very rare.

And in fact there have been quite a few rpgs dealing with religous themes.
Pendragon
In Nomine
GURPS in sourcebooks like Religion and Cabal and Fantasy
Demon:the Fallen
Alternity in the Dark•Matter Setting
Nobilis

I just got through with a game where the PCs were Demon Hunters working for the RCC in the year 2005. Obviously there were some differences from the real world :cool: .

[daeudi_454]

Actually That's not true it's just the church believes that cases of genuine possesion (and therefore the need for excorcism) is very very rare.

And in fact there have been quite a few rpgs dealing with religous themes.
Pendragon
In Nomine
GURPS in sourcebooks like Religion and Cabal and Fantasy
Demon:the Fallen
Alternity in the Dark•Matter Setting
Nobilis

I just got through with a game where the PCs were Demon Hunters working for the RCC in the year 2005. Obviously there were some differences from the real world :cool: .
Well, needless to say, the RCC gives the impression that it doesn't believe in direct action by supernatural forces for either side being remotely common.

In Nomine: It's a twisted worldview, even if it wasn't angels and demons.
GURPS: it presents a decnt sourcebook, as gurps always does, but little in the way of a campaign setting. Cabal is more horror than religion.
Demon:tF: Its white wolf. by definition, crap. I have read it and the player's manual. The character's are little more than vampires with bigger power.
Alternity... I haven't checked any of this system... I gathered it was kinda universal, so I stuck w/Hero.
Pendragon & Nobilis: I'll have to check it out.

[Curufea]

From what I hear of Nobilis - it's very pretty, but the rules are abstracted to such an extent you don't need a rulebook.

[Lamrok]

Don't forget DragonRaid, if you want to go hard core:

(from the DragonRaid site)
"DragonRaid is an exciting experience in adventure simulation. More than just a game, it offers hours of enjoyment while teaching participants to resist sin, counter deceptive arguments, memorize Scripture, and build moral and spiritual character. The DragonRaid system encompasses many different adventures. On the mythical world of EdenAgain, players meet challenges that parallel real life. The imagined dangers compel them to grapple with conflicting values, discover how faith in Christ can shape behavior, and reflect on what is really worth living and dying for."

I actually tried it once or twice. In order to perform the equivalent of casting spells, you had to recite Bible verses from memory.

[Curufea]

Hmmm - where is that rolling eyes smiley ;-p

[daeudi_454]

Don't forget DragonRaid, if you want to go hard core:


A side note: I would just love it if RPGs could be welcomed by places like Berean or Romar- it would expand the hobby. But based on the weak, lame, pathetic, (I'll stop, there are far too many adjectives for them) comic books I have seen in those stores, the only type of RPG that would be sold there is: one no one would want to play.

Sorry, it sounds as bad as the aforementioned comic books. Memorizing scripture for a game is one thing, what you described is another.

[Lamrok]

Sorry, it sounds as bad as the aforementioned comic books.

You are right. It is just as bad. But, people buy those comics, and this game has been around in some form for twenty years. There's no accounting for taste.

Check out the website (www.dragonraid.net). It is quite entertaining.

"For example, in the first adventure (an easy-to-play introduction to the game system) the players meet a troll who wants to give them "gifts" which are really temptations to sin. The three temptations put before the players are gawking at bodies on the beach, buying all the clothes they could ever desire, and going to a music concert where there will be plenty of "pleasure potions" (drugs). The troll asks each person which of the three "gifts" they would like to have"

[Zeropoint]

"For example, in the first adventure (an easy-to-play introduction to the game system) the players meet a troll who wants to give them "gifts" which are really temptations to sin. The three temptations put before the players are gawking at bodies on the beach, buying all the clothes they could ever desire, and going to a music concert where there will be plenty of "pleasure potions" (drugs). The troll asks each person which of the three "gifts" they would like to have"

Well, it looks like Mephistopheles doesn't have to worry about the competition any time soon.

[Mentor]

I still think that religion is more likely to succeed as an individual campaign or scenario design theme rather than a complete game or sub genre. Religion could reasonably be the center focus of Champions, Dark Champions, fantasy Hero, Pulp Hero or Star hero with equal appropriateness. The GM design determines all.

[Springald Jack]

Demon:tF: Its white wolf. by definition, crap. I have read it and the player's manual. The character's are little more than vampires with bigger power.


I'll have to admit I never read Demon but both the original Mage and Cangeling I loved and the Aeon Continuum is a gorgeous setting.

WW is not, by definition, crap.

Religion is often a theme in my games. Most of my games are set in something that resembles the modern world. None of my players has ever been offended.

HELL In Nomine (which I love) never generated a lot of negative flack.

The facto of the matter is our little hobby is no longer in the eye of those who attacked its evil, mostly because it no longer has any chance of becoming mainstream.

[Black Rose]

Demon:tF: Its white wolf. by definition, crap. I have read it and the player's manual. The character's are little more than vampires with bigger power.
I dunno. One of the things I think WW does best is their nifty settings; I really liked the background for Demon, at least until it got to now. Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't mean all of their setting books. I mean the first book in a line. After that it almost always slides further down with each book. Sometimes a single book will impress me greatly, but then it's always back to the "our NPCs r0xx0r! w00t!"

[kehrer1701]

or perhaps a campaign book designed for a particular system....., or is that what you mean..



I still think that religion is more likely to succeed as an individual campaign or scenario design theme rather than a complete game or sub genre. Religion could reasonably be the center focus of Champions, Dark Champions, fantasy Hero, Pulp Hero or Star hero with equal appropriateness. The GM design determines all.

[Dauntless]

I'm inclined to agree that religion hero is really a sub-genre (or meta-genre really), as you can implement it in any other genre.

But that's not to say that you can't write a book on it. I think it'd also be fun, as well as educational, to write about a plethora of religions, philosophies and mythic archetypes. A book that discusses how religion affects social spheres as well as personal ones could be used as game ideas in a campaign. Having a guide, essentally a comparative religion section, could help the GM figure out if and what types of conflicts could occur between followers of various religious sects. For example, Buddhists get along with basically everyone...from shamans to monotheists to polytheists to atheists.

I think religion is a sorely neglected topic in games. The TV show Battlestar Galactica put an interesting spin on religion for example. Even in fictitious settings, one rarely thinks about how followers of various religions will react to one another. Look at today's problems with fundamentalism and how it shapes world events.

I think if it's done right, Religion Hero would be non-offensive....at least if you have a semi-open mind. A good place to get ideas for yourself until such a book comes out is www.religioustolerance.org. Lots of comparative articles and discussions of doctrine amongst various religions. Also covers obscure religions, like Jainism, Sikhism, Shintoism, Manicheasts, Bahai'ists and others.

[daeudi_454]

The problem is that most "devout" practitioners of most religions- well... aren't tolerant. Anyone else is wrong at best, evil people to be killed at worst.

[TheQuestionMan]

There are so many resources for Angels & Demons in RPGs what exactly did you have in mind.

Fantasy Hero by Hero Games - Divine and Diabolical Racial Package Deals
http://www.herogames.com/Products/FH.htm

Vibora Bay by Hero Games - Fallen Angel/Demon
http://www.herogames.com/Products/VB.htm

Bestiary by Hero Games - Demons & Avatars
http://www.herogames.com/Products/Bestiary.htm

GURPS In Nomine by Steve Jackson Games
http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/

Demon: The Fallen by White Wolf
http://www.white-wolf.com/demon/

Fireborn by Fantasy Flight Games
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/fireborn.html

Angel RPG by Eden Studios
http://www.angelrpg.com/main.htm

Primal Order by Wizards of the Coast
http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=330

Rapture: The Second Coming by Holistic Design
http://www.holistic-design.com/introRapture.htm

The Seventh Seal by Creative Illusions - War between Heaven and Hell on Earth.
http://www.morriganrpg.com/gm-SevSeal.html

Celestius Ex, 2nd Ed A Christian Roleplaying Game by Crown of Thorns Studio
http://www.celestius-ex.com/

Glorantha by Chaosium - Ascension and Classes of Gods
http://www.glorantha.com/new/index.html

Brave New World by Pinnacle Games & Alderac Entertainment Group - The Covenant
http://www.forbeck.com/?cat=11

Godsend Agenda D6 by Khepera Publishing - Alien Angels & Demons
http://www.godsendagenda.com/

Deities & Demi Gods by Wizards of the Coast - The Classics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deities_&_Demigods

Armeggeddon: The End Times by Eden Studios - Dark Urban Fantasy with a twist.
http://www.edenstudios.net/armageddon/news.html

Nobilis RPG Game of Greater Powers by Hogshead Publishing/Guardians of Order - Beautiful Book
http://www.guardiansorder.com/games/nobilis/products.html

Testament: Roleplaying in the Biblical Era by Green Ronin Publishing - By our own Scott Bennie
http://www.greenronin.com/catalog/grr1019

GURPS Religion by Steve Jackson Games - The best Sourcebook for Religion RPGing out there... So far
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Religion/

Shadowrun: Magic in the Shadows by Fantasy Productions - Deals with Religion and Angels and Demons as Spirits.
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/fanpro/intro_mits.shtml

Champions of Vancouver - Gabriel, Archangel of Communications. An Avatar rather than a true Archangel.
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32740


Good Luck

QM

[Springald Jack]

The problem is that most "devout" practitioners of most religions- well... aren't tolerant. Anyone else is wrong at best, evil people to be killed at worst.

While I'll give you a qualified yes on your comment about devout practitioners, the fact is that in the existing market for RPG books, those people are rare. It's not so much that you're wrong as that your point doesn't matter.

That said I am not neccessarily advocating a Religion HERO book as I don't advocate books I won't buy, and right now I woldn't buy a book on religious themes in gaming unless I saw something with a novel approach as I already have several books which deal religous themes in gaming generally or specifically.


Also covers obscure religions, like Jainism, Sikhism, Shintoism, Manicheasts, Bahai'ists and others.
As a technical note Shintoism isn't so much obscure as regional

[Dauntless]

Well, I'd say Jains and Sikhs are relatively obscure outside their native countries. Granted even shintoists outside Japan are usually Japanese, but they still are around. For example take a gander here: http://www.tsubakishrine.com/test/home.asp

I think it's good to know at least the basics of even obscure religions/philosophies. There's an old asian saying that says, "He who knows only one religion knows none". I really think having a comparative religious study would be a great boon to gamers. Religion is at the heart of many great game ideas. Religion provides conflict and mystery, two of the central ingredients in any story. Understanding the commonality and differences of religions can help provide building blocks for a campaign. It'd also be a good way to create your own religion for a fantasy or sci-fi game.

[Curufea]

Hmm - now I'm wondering if religions could be treated like clans in Vampire - a character chooses a particular religion, but other PCs may be of other religions. Each has advantages and disadvantages..

[Springald Jack]

Well, I'd say Jains and Sikhs are relatively obscure outside their native countries.

Well as Jains and Sikhs are rare even in India it's not ssurprising they are rare elsewhere.

[Dauntless]

There's approximately 4 million Jains, and 20 million Sikh's in the world. Perhaps small in comparison to the world's population, but that actually puts both religions in the top 15. In England, Sikhs are the 4th largest religious group (not counting non-religous or atheists) behind Christians, Muslims, and Hindus and comprise about 336,000 members.

Go to any large city in the free world (5 million+ cities), and I'm sure you'll find at least a few score followers of virtually every religion in the world. One of the few cool things about monster cities in my opinion.

[zornwil]

It depends on what you mean, too, by a "religious game." A game about a religion? A game about believing in a faith? A game about beliefs themselves?

If you want the focus around a corrupt, unfaithful/irreligious town, even if you don't use the system and use HERO, Dogs in the Vineyard's town-generation chapter is quite useful. If you want the focus around PC moral choices, DitV will at least give good ideas in general if not be a system better suited to that than most (I think the latter, but given the purpose here is "Religion HERO" I'll assume we want a HERO end result as a given).

Regarding beliefs and centering roleplaying choices around those, I've heard a lot of people praise Burning Wheel, I have still not gotten around to reading it. So that might be good "study material."

Random thoughts -

I think an interesting thing to deal with is the hubris that develops around most player/PC relationships.

Most games, including HERO, reward PCs (and therefore players) for winning conflicts. You'd probably want to shape your XP around saving souls and such, if the game is about being of a certain religion. In fact, you might even not reward defeating evil, or reward it less than promoting good. This will help downplay always resorting to the terrible swift sword (again, depending on the type of campaign you want).

[Vondy]

The problem is that most "devout" practitioners of most religions- well... aren't tolerant. Anyone else is wrong at best, evil people to be killed at worst.

And some devout practitioners aren't really interested in dealing with their game-master's external religious-cultural perspective of their faith; or with gaming materials that are well researched and respectful, but still completely off-base from the perspective of the religion in question, because the author isn't a practitioner, and could not research actual source texts and cultural realities. I am certain Testament is excellent from a gaming perspective, but I'm also certain it would look radically different if written by an educated Jew. I'm of the opinion that, excepting a truly exceptional game-master with truly exceptional players, a game that uses real world religions as its impetus can only work with a religiously homogeneous roleplaying group made up of actual practitioners of the faith in question, or a heterogeneous group where none of them are practitioners.

Can you imagine if a Christian GM tried to run a Jewish themed game set in ancient Israel, or Roman Judea, for me? Or tried to run a scenario for a really hard-core orthodox Jewish character run by a hard-core orthodox player - even where religion is really just a tertiary issue? In my experience it doesn't work. There are radically divergent ethical and theological assumptions that come into play that inevitably create friction if real world religion becomes an issue in the game. Why would a religious Jewish player (as an example) want to deal with religion in a game that had implicity christian assumptions - or visa versa?

I have a player who ran occassionally to give me a break who decided to break my general rule, which was to avoid religion as a theme in heterogeneous religious groups. He did this because he wanted a religious story-line for my character, who was religious, though in a very subdued way in the game. He comes from very fundy christian roots, and even though he is agnostic and very open minded, a lot of those assumptions shone through. He was being as respectful and meant well - and I did not get upset with him at all - but I was also uncomfortable with some of his (unintentionally and extremely) ignorant assumptions about what the character would do, and how the character would react. And personally, as a Jew, the storyline just didn't work in terms of roleplaying a Jewish character dealing with Jewish religious themes. It fell flat - flat like a cardboard cutout blown onto its face by a strong wind. Smack-flat.

This isn't to say that religion cannot be used to great affect in a game, but with real world religions I think, unless your group is essentially homogeneous in religious terms, that its best to tread very lightly, and to have it be part of the ambiance rather than the plot. The experience is likely to reveal more about the prejudices of the players and GM towards the religion in question, than illuminate the religion the story is revolving around - and that can be a very uncomfortable experience if one of the people at the table is an actual practitioner.

On the other hand, I have run a game where an amalgam monist religion/philosophy was a driving force in the game, and where heresy, prophecy, sectarian conflict, and the nature of the divine were significant themes. I think it worked - and produced some very profound sessions we are both very proud of - because 1) it was a solo game, 2) I (the Jew) and my player (the Christian) were very careful to ensure the theme and thrust were universal, 3) this player and I are very close and know eachother very well, and 4) it was similiar to real world monotheism without actually being real world monotheism.

I have other players I wouldn't have run that game for, even if I were offered a million dollars.

[Vondy]

Actually, I think a historic based religious based RPG would be a cool idea. Problem is, no one would want to play it. It will incense or at least alienate many Christians because it would make them question many theological issues they take for granted.

Imagine this for a roleplaying exercise. God, commands your forces (the Israelites) to massacre all the Sihonites. Every last man, woman, child, old man and oxen. Why? Because Yahweh told you to do it. Would you be able to do it (and yes, this isn't just a modern day way of thinking....conscience has been with man since the dawn of our consciousness). And yes, Yahweh did order on several occasions the massacre of several peoples (look at Numbers or Samuel).

Roleplaying exercise #2. The year is 325AD and the Synod at Nicea has convened, declaring Arianism, or the belief that Jesus is not of the same divine nature as God as heretical. You are ordered to sniff out any Arians and force them to denounce their belief...or to perish.

Roleplaying exercise #3. You meet a man who rescues you from certain death. While tending to your wounds, you notice in his belongings the scripture, The Gospel of Thomas...a known Gnostic teaching declared heretical. The man saved your life...what do you do?

Roleplaying exercise #4. Your king orders you and your men to attack his enemy in another province and to kill all of them, including the priest who has been agitating the other lord to move against your own lord. Where does your allegiance lie...to your lord and liege, or to your faith?

And these are but a few of the hundreds of scenarios I could think of. I didn't even touch anything about the Crusades or the Reformation which is ripe for ideas. How about any of the wars fought during this time period, like the English Civil War?

But it will not only make irate those who will not appreciate putting Christianity under a new light, it will also fail to attract those who aren't biased towards religion one way or the other. Most people are very wary of anything smelling of religion, because they are afraid of the hard sell.

I personally would like to see not just Christian themes covered, but anything with a religious overtone ala Battlestar Galactica. Religion is a very sticky topic though right now and there's definitely a Cold War being waged in this country over religious themes. So a game about religious themes and history could either be really hot, or it could blow up. I personally feel that we need to expose people to many religious themes so that they are exposed to more than just one dogmatic viewpoint (or none at all) precisely because of this Cold War that's going on. But like I said, it's a super-sensitive issue right now...so either way, you'd have to be careful

What I find interesting about this post is that it doesn't take into account the very real likelyhood that a religious person would find using God as a deus ex machina to advance the plot, and both God and the Prophets as non-player characters, inherently offensive and disrespectful in of itself.

[Savinien]

Holy Necromancy, Z/V Man!

[Vondy]

It wasn't me - it was zorn!

[zornwil]

He who smelt it, dealt it!






:joint:

[That Masked Man]

I have used religious themes in a lot of games, but usually in a SF/Fantasy setting and not using real world religions. I don't think a game based on religion would work and one based on RL religions would be too likely to cause offense. Of course it also depends on your players. I could see some players I know enjoying a game based on the manga/anime series Angel Sanctuary (where the background is a war between angels) and others I know would be offended.

[Curufea]

Always reminds me of a Routier's quote from one of the feasts I went to at an interstate living history convention.
"Don't be afraid to offend, that's what God gave you teeth for!"

(implication being they might soon be encountering a fist :) )

[GestaltBennie]

The first issue of Targum, Highmoon's PDF magazine support for Testament,
The first issue includes:It's for d20, but fans of the setting should find enough cool bits to justify a purchase. Yeah, I am a contributor, so please note my bias. :-)

Ostraca: Lost Books by Spike Y Jones - Use lost books of the Bible as inspiration for your games.
The Caravan at Kuntillet'Ajrud by Christopher Heard - A look at the inns of the ancient Middle East.
The Hekau-Adept by Scott Bennie - The Egyptian master sorcerer, complete with a new spellcasting system.
The Twelve Tribes of Israel: Part 1 by Daniel M. Perez - Bring the heritage of the twelve tribes into your game.
Free Paper Minis from Arion Games.

It is available at http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=7727&src=EnWorld At $6.95 for 35 pages, some might cosider it pricey, but the subject's fairly esoteric by gamer standards (Some of the rabbinical legends on the sons of Jacob are good enough to justify it, in my eyes).

[Wolfgar]

Well there are three ways to look at it:

Religeon as theme: This is probably the #1 you see religeon in RPGs. Somebody takes a classical religeous lesson or story and models a role-playing stuation out of it. Someone might use the game to impart a moral lesson, sometimes appreciated, sometimes not. Or there may be a statement about religeon or faith through a PC or NPC. The power of faith may overscome some great evil, even if it's just faith in a god that doesn't exist outside the game world.

Religeon as Mythos: Also common. Many games feature angels, gods, demons, priests, etcetera. Here the main matter is just deciding on stats and powers, as well as degree of influence on play.

Religeon as Meta-Genre: Probably the rarest of the three, religeon as a Meta-Genre would imply using Hero to try to bring about religeous experience or a feeling of proximity to the divine. RPGs could theoretically be very effective for this, and for some people it works quite well. Just as often though, these are the same people who believe spells are real and they are really possessed by demons. All in all it works out best for the hobby if this sort of thing is only done on an extremely limited basis.

[Dauntless]

Well, depending on what religion you practice, having "God" or a prophet played as an NPC would definitely be sacreligious. Islam comes readily to mind. Allah is not an anthropomorphic being (unlike how he is often portrayed in Christianity), and neither Allah nor Muhammed should be iconified or depicted in any way (for that matter, neither is the 12th "Hidden" Imam for the Shiia). Allah is not seen as manifesting his presence in the physical world to make things happen...that is the job of human beings. Humans are just trying to fulfill Allah's covenant, which is why Muslims call Jews and Christians "people of the book", and in ancient times, accorded far more tolerance and protection than Christians afforded Jews or Muslims. Rather Allah is a presence within (even Muhammed never "saw" Allah, he only received the "recitations"...which btw is what Koran means).

But to a Jewish or Christian player, I don't foresee this as a problem. Afterall, the New and Old Testament (Torah) are rife of examples of God (El, Yahweh, Jehovah, Shaddai, etc) directly intervening and being in the presence of humans. And since my examples were particularly in regards to Christianity, I don't think they'd find it so odd or irregular. While it's true that God usually works by proxy (Moses, Jesus or various angels....or even disembodied presences like the burning bush...or in Nicene terms, through the Holy Ghost), there are enough examples in the Bible to not find it too odd that God would directly intervene in some manifestation.

But in some ways, it's this revelation that the GM should think about such issues is why I think a Religion-based game would be interesting. I have studied many religions as a hobby and have discovered many interesting things which they have in common and in which they are different. Being aware of these commonalities and differences is what is not only fascinating, but important even in today's ever more polar society.

For example, Christianity (Protestants and Catholics mostly, lesser to a degree the Eastern Orthodoxy) is very concerned about orthodoxy...or "straight thought". They want to make sure everyone has the same core beliefs (heretic btw in Greek meant "free thinker" or "one who goes his own way", thus a heretic was someone who was not an orthodox thinker). Islam and Judaism on the other hand are more concerned with orthopraxy....the correct mode of practice and worship. What you think and believe about Yahweh or Allah is not as important as the rituals and worship of Him. This is why the mystic branches of Judaism and Islam survived and even flourished (Kabbalah and Sufism respectively) while in Christianity it did not (for example the Gnostics).

And then of course there's the non monotheistic religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and various shamanistic/animistic or ancestor worship religions. These in turn have their own idea of what is divine, spiritual or worldly, profane, etc.

[Vondy]

But to a Jewish...

As a religious Jew and a long-term gamer I do foresee a very big problem. I think you're assuming a "Chistian" take on Judaism that doesn't exist. In a lot of areas Judaism is more similiar to Islam than Christianity. This is one of them.

[Curufea]

Very true. Even alluding to the deity in a disrespectful manner is forbidden. Hence the misspelling of the word "God". Also the loss/lack of use of the name.

[Super Squirrel]

The fundamental problem I see with Religious hero is that you really have to have an indepth knowledge of, at the very least, one religion to run. If your players don't have that level of depth or some sort of bias view on religion, it could cause the game to fizzle out quickly.

[The Monster]

Speaking as what probably counts as a "devout" believer - and, if I may say so, a "devout" gamer! - I think the idea of making an RPG based around religion, or even a sourcebook about religions in general, is at best a quixotic ideal and at worst an invitation to a hatchet job. The problem is that everyone thinks they have the best perspective on the universe: Christians (in full disclosure, that includes me) think there is only one God, and by and large, the ideas and guidelines (or even outright commandments) in the Old and New Testaments are valid, allowing for varities of interpretation thereof. Jews reject the New Testament, holding to what they see as the only real divine scriptures, the Law and the Prophets (what Christians call the Old Testament). And so on with any religion you pick. And some modernist person who doesn't believe in any religion will treat them all as, at best, amusing morality tales for the unenlightened, and, at worst, purely fictional or even delusional methods for covering up mental illnesses and manipulating the masses. So really, nobody is qualified to make an objective, fair description of the various religions, and, even if there was someone, there certainly wouldn't be enough like her/him/it to provide a decent market for the book!

That said, my take on religion is RPGs is that I use it as a tool, much like I use psychology or sociology or history or physics, and so forth: it is a tool which I as GM and player can use to enhance the game. I'm not going to make my games or characters depend upon knowledge or application of any particular religion, any more than I am going to have characters or games which have as their primary focus accurate and detailed knowledge of psychology (in which I have a BA, for all that's worth) or physics (in which my brother is a college professor). I'm trying to make interesting stories, not treatises or lessons. (BTW, DragonRaid isn't so much an RPG as it is a Scripture-teaching tool; when I finally had a chance to look through it, it's clear - and explicit - about its purpose, and for that purpose I suppose it woould work well. I know it would not work well for me both for gamer reasons and believer reasons.) When I do use religion explicitly in games, it's always as a storytelling aid (and while I admit to sometimes using a bit of "morality tale" in a few games, it's always on the level of "good is better than evil," no more specific than something you might find on the Hallmark Channel).

I think it might - might - be possible to do a sourcebook on religions, sort of in the GURPS sourcebook mode (haven't they done one already?). But that's a very different thing than designing a religion RPG. A religion RPG would almost have to be built specificially within one religious perspective, with treatments of other beliefs derived from within the primary. And for that very reason, its sales market would be A) gamers who happen to follow that religion; and B) gamers who are open-minded and/or curious enough to pay money to read things that they know are likely to oppose their world view.

Again, as believer in a particular religion, I feel that my beliefs are challenged and even derided enough in daily life - including, I must say, by people within my chosen hobby - that I feel no need to seek out marginal opportunities to buy stuff that will chap my hide even if it's quality material. When I want that kind of challenge, I'll go for the real thing, not a watered-down game book. (Just so you don't think I'm just an intolerant witch-burning ignoramus, let me add here that, while I haven't had a chance to play them, I find both In Nomine and White Wolf's Hunter fascinating reading.)

[Dauntless]

Well, it's always dangerous to try to pidgeonhole a religion as having a certain "standardized" set of beliefs or practices, and I admit I'm guilty of doing that too. Look at the differences between Protestants, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodoxy, or Sufism, Wahhabism, and Shia "Twelvers", or between say Lurianic Kabbalah, and Marrano (a somewhat derogatory term historically speaking...it means "pig"...so forgive me) Jews. All religions are like this. Even in Buddhism you've got branches that believe in divine intervention (Pure Land), and those that don't even really pay attention to reincarnation (Chan and Zen). So it's very possible for many Jews (and even some Christians) to take offense at a God who directly intervenes in worldy affairs. Afterall, it was a mortal offense to even utter Jehovah once upon a time. But then again, that was in the days before Rabbinic Judaism had taken hold (which really happened after the two incredibly destructive Jewish-Roman wars of 68AD and 132AD...if I remember the dates correctly. Look up Bar-Kohkba revolt).

But I think it's precisely knowing all these differences that is interesting from a gaming perspective, and educational from a real world one.

It's also interesting that Jewish culture was the first in Europe to embrace secularism and even an early form of Atheism/Agnosticism. Because of the Sephardic exodus of Jews from Spain at the end of the 1400's (btw, Sephardic comes from Sefarad....or Spain...it does not mean only Semitic Jews) and some Jews rather faking getting converted than leave, these Marrano Jews lost some of the true meaning of Judaism. When some of these Jews had to leave and then experienced "real" Judaism in other areas, many could not understand or accept it. Benedict (Baruch) Spinoza was an example of this.

Now, with all this said and done, I do think that gaming or even writing a Religion Hero book is fraught with many pitfalls, and these should be examined carefully. First and foremost is understanding your audience. If the book was written too scholarly, it might seem boring, though it might have an edge in seeming unbiased. Another problem is that some religious gamers might take offense at information about various religions and their practices, history or beliefs....even if said information is factually correct. For example, I have incensed many Christians who could not believe that A) God would order a people to commit genocide (read Numbers or Deuteronomy for some examples) or B) That Jesus not once spoke out against slavery, and that in fact, some writings in the New Testament actually talk about proper rules and punishments for slaves.

The trouble is when we try to examine these religions and their teachings, practices and beliefs from our modern day standpoint. We have to look at things in context from an ancient people's point of view. In fact, a Religion Hero book which failed to take into account history, and how religious teachings have evolved would be a disservice. The plain fact of the matter is that religions do evolve...even fundamentalist groups.

So yes, Religion Hero would be very difficult to pull off. And doing it wrong could alienate customers from Hero Games, not to mention cause rifts between the playing group. But if the cost of failure is that high, I think the rewards are equally high. It would I think deepen faiths of some players by giving them a better understanding of their religion, it may enlighten those players who are irreligious to better understand what religion offers, and for all involved, it could lead to better tolerance and acceptance of other religions. But I could definitely understand why Hero Games would not want to take the risk of publishing such a book. But I think a homegrown resource would be a good idea...and in fact, I'd be more than happy to help build one if enough folks are interested.

And just for the record, I was baptized Catholic. But two grandfathers were Catholic, one grandmother Protestant (Lutheran) and one grandmother Muslim (Sufi). But I consider myself mostly Buddhist, with a dash of Taoism and esoteric Sufism thrown in for good measure.

[zornwil]

Dauntless, just so you're aware, VDM is a very serious student of the Jewish faith and has demonstrated time and again his knowledge in this area is quite deep. Just so you know. (Please don't take this as me trying to make any point - literally, I just want you to be aware so you consider that in your posts)

[Dauntless]

I don't claim to be an expert in any religious system....but I think it's fair to say that I know more than the average joe. In fact, I try NOT to specialize in any one religion as I like studying various religious systems. So while my depth in any one particular religion is not spectacular, I do think my breadth of knowledge is fairly good. And I'll admit, Judaism is one of my weaker subjects (I know a little more about Islam actually thanks to my mom).

Trust me, I am quite aware that especially in a subject like religion, "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing". I'm definitely not arrogant enough to not concede to someone who's spent a good portion of their life studying and practicing a religion, or someone who's been to some kind of theological/divinity school. But if there's one thing I've discovered, it's that I have come to appreciate an old Chinese saying: "if you know only one religion, you know none". I do know enough to know the vast amount of differences in interpretation between groups even of the same religion. If anything, that's what makes it all the more fascinating. And when you consider that the word religion itself is from the latin root "religiere" which means to "bind together", then you can appreciate the common root despite the differences even more.

I wish I had more time to read the Talmudic laws, the many various schools of Kabbalah, the hadiths and fatwas of the 4 major schools of Fiqh, and learn Greek, Hebrew, Latin and Arabic. Alas, I can not not. Heck, I wish I could learn Pali, Sanskrit, and Chinese and read some of the original Hinayana and Mahayana sutras. If a philsophy major could make money, I would have done that instead of computer science. But it's nonetheless a passionate hobby of mine to study religions. While I may not know any one particular religion greatly, I think I do have a fair grasp of a "big picture" role of religion and how it has affected society.

[gojira]

So, kinda aside from the main discussion of the last couple of pages, do any one of you Biblical scholars know what time period the book of Judges is from?

I remember thinking (long ago, in 8th grade parochial school) that some of the stories from that book of the Bible were actually kinda of interesting from a fantasy/RPG viewpoint.

I'm sure I could find out, I'm just being lazy....

[GestaltBennie]

So, kinda aside from the main discussion of the last couple of pages, do any one of you Biblical scholars know what time period the book of Judges is from?

I remember thinking (long ago, in 8th grade parochial school) that some of the stories from that book of the Bible were actually kinda of interesting from a fantasy/RPG viewpoint.

I'm sure I could find out, I'm just being lazy....



The answer is, we don't know very well.

Non-Biblical written histories that refer to Israel from that time period, which would be our best way to date the Bible, are scarce. The earliest reference to Israel is an Egyptian pillar from the reign of Merenptah (c. 1210 BC), which reads "Israel is devastated, barren of seed". From fifty years earlier, we receive reports of a warlord named Labaya in Canaan; some believe the name to be a compression of "Lion of Yahweh" and have linked him to Abimelech (or more radically, Saul), but that's solely speculation. There are numerous references in Egypt and Assyria to the Habiru ("wanderer" or "vagrant" in Akkadian, which was the lingua franca of the day) that date back to 1500 BC and which may refer to the Hebrews, but that's also disputed ("Habiru" may have been a derogatory name given to any hostile wandering tribe, which finally stuck to the Israelites).

I prefer the Judges era as a game environment for Testament, given its wide open nature. In general, it's probably best to place it between 1200 BC and 1050 BC, after the invasion of the Sea Peoples (known in Canaan as Phillistines) overthrew the Amorite coastal strongholds and brought about a dark age (during which no records were kept in the region).

Whether the time of the Sea Peoples is the actual time of the Judges period is a subject for scholarly debate that's probably beyond resolution. Beyond this, pottery's been found referring to Beth David (House of David) that's been dated to about 900 BC, but many dispute the find. The earliest unequivocal record of a Biblical figure is to Omri, father of Ahab ("Bit-Humria", House of Omri is synonomous with Israel in Assyrian sources). The date of this probably 880 BC., with a margin of error of about 5-10 years on either side.

[Curufea]

Again, as believer in a particular religion, I feel that my beliefs are challenged and even derided enough in daily life - including, I must say, by people within my chosen hobby - that I feel no need to seek out marginal opportunities to buy stuff that will chap my hide even if it's quality material.


This is of course, the problem with all religions when dealing with people not of their religion. Other religions must be either tolerated, accepted or dismissed (hopefully not in a condescending manner). The only alternative, is of course isolation. Which some religions also practice. How you deal with people of alternate religions is a personal matter, but it should be no different to how you treat items of different religions.

Tolerating the minor offenses of those not of your religion, because they are not familiar with your religion, or have their own beliefs that are contrary should be par for the course.

Should be.

[The Monster]

This is of course, the problem with all religions when dealing with people not of their religion. Other religions must be either tolerated, accepted or dismissed (hopefully not in a condescending manner). The only alternative, is of course isolation. Which some religions also practice. How you deal with people of alternate religions is a personal matter, but it should be no different to how you treat items of different religions.

Tolerating the minor offenses of those not of your religion, because they are not familiar with your religion, or have their own beliefs that are contrary should be par for the course.

Should be.

Should be. I wholeheartedly agree.
It should also be "par" to avoid stereotyping religious believers (or nonbelievers, for that matter.) What's good for the goose, as they say...

[Curufea]

Should be. I wholeheartedly agree.
It should also be "par" to avoid stereotyping religious believers (or nonbelievers, for that matter.) What's good for the goose, as they say...

True. But that is a matter of education. In general, I've found - one of the prime educational features of any given religion is to never teach their members about any other religion. It is no suprise that people not of your religion stereotype - they only know of their own religion.

The chances of a religion imparting enough knowledge about EVERY OTHER religion in the world - such that enough knowledge is imparted to not only "not offend" but also "not stereotype" is in the order of magnitude of naught to impossible. And is, in my books, wishful thinking.

[Lucius]

True. But that is a matter of education. In general, I've found - one of the prime educational features of any given religion is to never teach their members about any other religion. It is no suprise that people not of your religion stereotype - they only know of their own religion.

The chances of a religion imparting enough knowledge about EVERY OTHER religion in the world - such that enough knowledge is imparted to not only "not offend" but also "not stereotype" is in the order of magnitude of naught to impossible. And is, in my books, wishful thinking.

Unitarian Universalist Sunday School Curriculum "Church Across the Street" is, at least, an attempt to fulfill that wish.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wants to build a temple to Janus

[Curufea]

Unitarian is the exception proving the rule :)
It is, unfortunately, one of the more minor denominations.

[Lucius]

Actually, I find that too many people don't know anything about their OWN religion. Unfortunately, that sometimes goes for Unitarians, too.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wants to found a religion. After all, if it worked for Hubbard....

[DavidV]

Actually, I find that too many people don't know anything about their OWN religion. Unfortunately, that sometimes goes for Unitarians, too.

Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wants to found a religion. After all, if it worked for Hubbard....

Amen to that. I'm a Unitarian from Canada and see it in my church (and in myself, since I was raised Christian and became a UU later in life, I'm still not always the most knowledgeable and orthodox of Unitarians).

As for the whole topic of "Religion Hero", the only solution that would adequately deal with the whole problem of using real world religions in an RPG supplement would be to have each section written by a knowledgeable practitioner of that religion.

Since that's probably not practical (and there may be non-gaming books that cover off the type of information that would be included just as well), perhaps something written a higher level (i.e. not addressing specific faiths) that covers themes in the culture of religion (rituals, lifestyle issues, etc.) would allow GMs to more knowledgeably model the role of religion in their campaigns while leaving GMs and players to work out which, if any, real world religions to include and to do the necessary homework to make sure they do it right.

Personally, I agonize over creating religions for my fantasy worlds, since I (a) want to make them "fell" like a religion, not some abstract creation and (b) want to ensure that if I am modeling them on a real world relgion, they actually live up what is good and positive about that religion. The simple D&D approach of throwing together a bunch of gods and goddesses and calling that a religion doesn't cut it for me.

The bottom line is that any handling of a given faith in an RPG, esp. a published one, needs to be respectful and (as much as possible) free of serious errors or prejudices. If you can't achieve that, better to deal with religion on a broader level and leave specific faiths to those who follow thm.

David

[Curufea]

I tend to use real world religions for my fantasy campaign because a) all the work has been done for me and b) they are far more interesting/weird/believable than any fantasy religion I could come up with.