2.43 Problem

[Trailblazer]

Hi Dan,

I seem to have discovered a problem with the latest 2.43 interim build. I have a character who has purchased Armor and has a List of Powers Linked to the Armor as a Common Modifier. All works well except for one case. If I buy Reduced END on STR as a Characteristic Power (+0 STR with the Red. END Advantage applied to the base characteristic) as a slot in the List, the Active cost is correct, but the Real cost comes out negative.

Attached is an example character that illustrates the problem.

BTW, Happy New Year! I'm looking forward to V3!

[ghost-angel]

I'm at work and can't open HDC files but ... it's like that the Limitation saves more points on the Advantaged STR than the Advantage adds to the STR itself, thus giving you a "negative" Real Cost to "+0 STR, 0 END, Linked: Applied to base characteristic"

Limitations save you points, that's the idea.

Of course you realize if you link your STR to your Armor you don't have STR while the Armor is off right?

[KA.]

Unless there are other factors going on that I am unaware of, what you bought makes no sense. ;)

I think what you wanted to buy was a Naked Modifier (Reduced Endurance) that would work on up to 30 points of STR, linked to your Armor Power.

Which means that, when you are using your Armor Power, you get to use up to 30 points of STR without using as much END.

It should look sort of like this:
Naked Modifier: Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) for up to 30 Active Points

What you bought was 0 points of additional STR, that have a Reduced End Cost.
Which means you basically didn't buy anything.
You bought Reduced END on additional points of STR, but you didn't buy any additional points of STR.

It may be that the point savings you saw (-5) were determined by Hero Designer due to some rule that is being invoked. (Most Likely)

Or it could be that what you were asking for was so weird that Hero Designer does not know how to interpret it. (Less Likely)

In any case, the main problem is that what you wanted was a Naked Modifier on your existing STR, not additional points of STR with a Reduced END cost.

Hope this helps,

KA.

P.S. I hope this doesn't come across as hostile or condescending.
I don't mean it that way at all, I am just trying to be as clear as possible. :)

[ghost-angel]

Unless there are other factors going on that I am unaware of, what you bought makes no sense. ;)

I think what you wanted to buy was a Naked Modifier (Reduced Endurance) that would work on up to 30 points of STR, linked to your Armor Power.

Which means that, when you are using your Armor Power, you get to use up to 30 points of STR without using as much END.

It should look sort of like this:
Naked Modifier: Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) for up to 30 Active Points

What you bought was 0 points of additional STR, that have a Reduced End Cost.
Which means you basically didn't buy anything.
You bought Reduced END on additional points of STR, but you didn't buy any additional points of STR.

It may be that the point savings you saw (-5) were determined by Hero Designer due to some rule that is being invoked. (Most Likely)

Or it could be that what you were asking for was so weird that Hero Designer does not know how to interpret it. (Less Likely)

In any case, the main problem is that what you wanted was a Naked Modifier on your existing STR, not additional points of STR with a Reduced END cost.

Hope this helps,

KA.

P.S. I hope this doesn't come across as hostile or condescending.
I don't mean it that way at all, I am just trying to be as clear as possible. :)
ACtually, I've a feeling (haven't looked at the sheet- still at work) that he bought 0 Additional STR, 0 END and clicked the "Apply to Base Characteristics" checkbox in the Characteristic Power Dialogue thus causing his 30STR to have the 0END Advantage.

And then applied Linked to Armor from there, causing an overall savings in points as his now 30, 0 END STR: (20pts + 15tps = 30pts / Linked Lim Worth)
20pts is buying STR up 30, 15pts is buying 0 END on 30pts of STR. If that explanation makes any sense?

I do it occasionally for characters, and HD acts perfectly fine when doing this.

You're right though - he probably wants a Naked Advnatage: 0 END for STR, Linked to Armor.

[Trailblazer]

No problem, KA, no offense taken. :) Ghost-angel has it right. It's an HD trick for applying what is essentially a Naked Advantage directly to a Characteristic, so that its value changes automatically as the value of the Characteristic changes. This can be done with various Advantages on STR, as well as Hardened on PD and ED, for example. It's even appeared this way in character stats in some of the published books. With straight Naked Advantages, you have to enter the active cost and then update it manually later if that active cost changes.

Since entering the base note, I've discovered that putting the Linked Limitation directly on the Characteristic also shows the problem; it's not just because it's in a List. It shows up like this without the Linked Limitation:

7 Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (7 Active Points) applied to STR

and like this with it:

-5 Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (7 Active Points); Linked (Armor; -1/2) applied to STR

[ghost-angel]

Yep, mostly because what you're doing isn't really a Naked Advantage. It's buying STR with the Advantages and Limitations and then writing it down in two places.

[KA.]

Okay, upon further review, here is what I think is going on.
(If I am just repeating what both of you are saying, let me know, because it is entirely possible. :nonp: )

I think that what Trailblazer is trying to buy is a Power that allows him to use his 30 STR (which is something the character has all the time) at 1/2 END when his Armor is up.

That makes a certain amount of sense, if you are thinking of a Colossus-type character that is always really strong, but who doesn't get worn out as easily when in his Armored Form.

So, the Reduced END 'Power' is Linked to the Armor Power, and the cost is reduced because of the Linked Limitation.

If that is what you are trying to do, then the construct you have bought is not doing what you think it is, even though it looks like HD is letting you do it.

What I think HD is doing is this:
You bought 30 points of STR when you were buying your Characteristics, not when you were buying Powers, because this character has 30 STR all the time.
You then bought 0 Points of STR as a Power, and put Reduced END on it, checking the box that says
"Add Modifiers to Base Characteristic".
The Zero Points of STR have a Linked Limitation on them that is worth -1/2.
So why does the cost come out to -5 Points?

Because, when you said:
"Add Modifiers to Base Characteristic"
that is exactly what HD did.
It applied ALL the modifiers to the Base Characteristic.

Which means now, your 30 STR not only has the:
Reduced Endurance, 1/2 END, +1/4 Advantage applied to it,
It also has the
-1/2 'Linked to Armor' Limitation applied to it!

Which means that now, when your character is not in his Armored Form, he has 0 STR.

That is why you get -5 points.

The Linked Limitation on all your STR gives you:
-1/2 * 30 Active Points = -10 Points

The Reduced End costs:
+1/4 * 30 Active Points = 5 Points

So you end up saving 10 points, while spending 5, for a net savings of 5 points.

The only problem is, by doing it this way you are linking all your STR to your Armor.

When you are not in Armored form you are literally as weak as a Small Child.

If that is what you intended, then no problem, otherwise you need to buy a Naked Advantage.

KA.

[kave99]

have to agree with KA, had this argument with Simon ages ago to get the naked power advantage

[KA.]

I just wanted to chime in with one more comment.
Just for the record, I don't see this as a 'problem', because it appears that HD is doing what it is supposed to be doing, based on the somewhat odd request being made of it.
i.e. Buying 0 Points of STR as a Power, and then putting Advantages and Limitations on those 'non existent' points, and the Base Points.
I can see it as a creative way to build things, so that you don't have to buy up the Naked Advantage every time you buy up your STR, but you also have to know that you are putting any Limitations that affect the Naked Advantage on the Base STR itself.
(And getting the point savings for doing so.)

KA.

[ghost-angel]

Just to be clear - buying a Characteristic as a Power, even at the 0 Level, using the Apply To Base Characteristics and applying Advantages and Limitations is NOT a Naked Advantage on your Characteristic. It IS your Characteristic with Advantages and Limitations on it.

Naked Advantages are POWERS in and of themselves that can have Advantages and Limitations applied to them like any other Power - which is what is wanted here I believe.

[KA.]

Just to be clear - buying a Characteristic as a Power, even at the 0 Level, using the Apply To Base Characteristics and applying Advantages and Limitations is NOT a Naked Advantage on your Characteristic. It IS your Characteristic with Advantages and Limitations on it.

Naked Advantages are POWERS in and of themselves that can have Advantages and Limitations applied to them like any other Power - which is what is wanted here I believe.

Thanks for the backup, ghost-angel. :thumbup:

I figured that you knew what was actually going on, but I was worried that Trailblazer, and anyone else reading this thread, might be getting the idea that the construct he bought was doing the same thing as a Naked Advantage with Limitations.

I think we have cleared that up.

KA.

(Now I just hope Trailblazer is still following this. :) )

[Trailblazer]

Guys, thanks for the input. I don't have any trouble understanding why HD is doing what it's doing. And certainly, going the route of buying a Naked Advantage isn't a problem.

My only question, and the reason I posted it here, is whether or not HD should be doing what it's doing. If Dan is satisfied that HD is doing what it's supposed to be doing, that's all I wanted to know. :)

[ghost-angel]

Yes, it's doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing.

[Trailblazer]

No offense, honestly, but I'd like to hear that from Dan. He may well agree with you, which is perfectly OK.

[KA.]

No offense, honestly, but I'd like to hear that from Dan. He may well agree with you, which is perfectly OK.

You may want to send a Private Message to Dan.
I have heard that he responds well to those.
He does usually watch this board pretty closely, but it may be that he is busy with something else right now.

KA.

[ghost-angel]

You may want to send a Private Message to Dan.
I have heard that he responds well to those.
He does usually watch this board pretty closely, but it may be that he is busy with something else right now.

KA.
Hopefully v3...

[Trailblazer]

Thanks, KA. If Dan's busy with something else (and I'll echo Ghost-angel's sentiment that it's hopefully V3!), I hate to bother him with something like this. I don't mind waiting for him to respond if and when he gets around to it.

[Simon]

Just to be clear - buying a Characteristic as a Power, even at the 0 Level, using the Apply To Base Characteristics and applying Advantages and Limitations is NOT a Naked Advantage on your Characteristic. It IS your Characteristic with Advantages and Limitations on it.

Naked Advantages are POWERS in and of themselves that can have Advantages and Limitations applied to them like any other Power - which is what is wanted here I believe.
EXACTLY correct. Thank you.

Sorry it took so long for me to respond...I was "marinating" in Ireland ;)

[Trailblazer]

Good enough. Thanks, and welcome back! I hope to get over there myself someday, as my anscestry is from there.

[Simon]

Good enough. Thanks, and welcome back! I hope to get over there myself someday, as my anscestry is from there.
You won't regret it when you do....this is Dublin in the winter:

http://www.compnetco.com/gallery2/d/1870-2/CIMG0619.JPG

'course....I mostly saw Dublin from the inside of one of the MANY pubs to be found.....but that's quite beside the point, innit? :celebrate

[Trailblazer]

Looks beautiful, even after a few pints, I imagine. ;) Though I could post some pictures from Colombia that'd compare rather favorably. Semi-tropical (in my city), and low 80s all year round. :) But I do still feel the call to go to Ireland someday. Thanks for the photo!