suppressing one's own power

[Rebar]

Is there a consensus on the best way to create a power that is normally always on, but can be suppressed by an act of will? How do you deal with the 'power turns on when unable to concentrate, stunned, sleeping, etc.'?

[JmOz]

Okay: OFFICIALY the way you would do this is by buying off the Always On limitation and taking whatever limitation (Concentration, Costs End, whatever)

PERSONALY: I use Var Lim, at the value of the SMALLEST limitation

There was a big hoo haw about this about a year ago, Me and a few argued with steve over it and lost

[BobGreenwade]

Officially... what JmOz said.

Unofficially, someone made a suggestion a while ago that really makes better sense. First, build the Power with Always On; then buy Suppress, using the Standard Effect Rule to give it just enough to turn the Power completely off, with the No Range and Self Only Limitations (-1/2 each).

[Captain Obvious]

OFFICIALLY...I don't quite get what JmOz said.

PERSONALLY...Bob's way makes sense, and is probably the way I would run it in most cases.

Would anyone care to give a more detailed explanation of the official way?

[Snarf]

You can buy the +1/2 power advantage persistent, listed on page 165 of 5'th edition rules. The power will be "constantly on until the character consciously decides to turn it off or dies." But it can only be used with a power that costs no endurance or is bought with reduced end(0 END).

[PhilFleischmann]

It seems to me that "Bob's Way" - buying Suppress, (or Drain, or maybe even Dispel) no range and Self Only - is completely valid within the rules. Is there some "official" reason why one shouldn't do it that way?

The "official" way mentioned above is to apply whatever appropriate limitation to the difference in cost between the power with and without the Always On limitation.

F'rinstance: If it would cost you 20 points to buy off the "Always On" lim completely, and you want to be able to turn it off only when Concetrating and spending END, you can buy it like this:

Buy off "Always On" (20 Active), Concentration (1/2 DCV throughout, -1/2), Costs END (-1/2), Real Cost: 10 points.

So I guess you'd be spending 2 END per Phase and be at half DCV for as long as you wnated the power to be off.

This also seems like a valid way to do it, and might actually cost less. In fact, if buying Suppress winds up costing more than buying off the Alway On, why would anyone do it?

[Captain Obvious]

Aha...that makes sense Phil. Thanks.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
This also seems like a valid way to do it, and might actually cost less. In fact, if buying Suppress winds up costing more than buying off the Alway On, why would anyone do it? At the risk of opening up a can of worms... Meta-Rule #6 (FREd page 348) is one reason. :)

[JmOz]

I have said it before, and will say it again

METARULE #6 IS BROKE

[Killer Shrike]

As PhilFleischmann said: Buy off the Always On like a Naked Advantage, applying whatever lims you want to it.


Alternately just dont take the Always On Lim and put a Always Occurs Side Effect on it 3d6 END when power turned off. Something like that.

Or take a Susceptibility to Having X Power Not Turned On, Xd6 per Time Increment.

[Captain Obvious]

Ah yes...metarule 6. That one is obviously broke from the get-go. It implies that all Area Effect powers of more than 10 active points must buy AE 1 hex and double it from there. I think what that one is meant to do is to prevent somebody from working out some way to duplicate an existing power by putting limitations on another power, thereby getting it cheaper than it should be.

Some other nice ideas, by the way, Shrike. I obviously haven't thought too much on this particular issue, because nothing jumped out at me when the question was originally asked.....

[Rebar]

"...buying off the Always On limitation and taking whatever limitation (Concentration, Costs End, whatever)..."

Yeah, although I don't really want it to interfere constantly, like Concentrate would. It should be able to be kept off *most* of the time.


"...buy the +1/2 power advantage persistent..."

Sure, but then he can just turn it off during breakfast and leave it off all day. Not what I'm looking for.


"...build the Power with Always On; then buy Suppress, using the Standard Effect Rule to give it just enough to turn the Power completely off, with the No Range and Self Only Limitations (-1/2 each)...."

Yeah, here's the thing. To buy that first power Always On shoots it from its puny 15 points way up to 45APs. (I can cut the RPs down no prob, but that won't change the suppress).

THEN, to suppress that, I need a 13D6 Suppress WITH OEnd, Const - for an additonal 78RPs!

I know, I know - nobody said it would be cheap. But that's ridiculous - and all for **15APs** of effect!


No, I'm really just looking for a way of making a small power that is kept off most of the time, but accidentally turns back on whenever he's PRE attacked, stunned, unconscious, etc.

I'll prob'ly just buy it as a Suscepibility or Phys Lim.

[Zaratustra]

Depends on the power, really. If it's beneficial to the character, using Trigger, No Conscious Control (a limitation that really needs more levels) or similar would work. If it's damaging, Susceptibility or Accidental Change.

And remember, in Hero, a weak but complex power costs more than a powerful but off-the-wall power. :)

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Rebar
"...buying off the Always On limitation and taking whatever limitation (Concentration, Costs End, whatever)..."

Yeah, although I don't really want it to interfere constantly, like Concentrate would. It should be able to be kept off *most* of the time. If that's your problem here, then just take the -1/4 Limitation Nonpersistent (FREd page 185) on the buy-off of Always On.
"...build the Power with Always On; then buy Suppress, using the Standard Effect Rule to give it just enough to turn the Power completely off, with the No Range and Self Only Limitations (-1/2 each)...."

Yeah, here's the thing. To buy that first power Always On shoots it from its puny 15 points way up to 45APs. (I can cut the RPs down no prob, but that won't change the suppress).

THEN, to suppress that, I need a 13D6 Suppress WITH OEnd, Const - for an additonal 78RPs! I'm not sure of your math here... first, assuming the original power is 15 base points with no other Advantages, making it Always On (including the required 0 END Persistent) sends it to 30 AP, and 20 RP. That needs 10d6 Suppress (with the SER), which with 0 END is 75 AP. The above Limitations then take that down to 37 RP, and any further Limitations can reduce it even more.

[Tech]

Changing topics slightly, what about a character who has powers bought normally (i.e. Multipower, reduced END, but not always on). The superheroine was born that way and isn't a mutant. What if the character wants to 'lock' her powers so that for all practical purposes, she's normal in stats.

I know Suppress immediately pops into mind but why buy a power simply to prevent your own character from being able to use their powers?

[Tom McCarthy]

Denying yourself access to your own powers for absolutely no gain should cost no points. As a GM, I'd just roleplay it.

If a character did it in order to disguise the existence of the powers, then it's probably a modifier on the Distinctive Features disadvantage they probably have.

[Heroman]

If you choose the Supress route, why don't you just buy smaller dice? Supress is cumulative; just buy it Continuous (so there is no subsequent attack rolls) plus all those other lims to reflect it taking a few moments to completly suppress the power...
As far as 'act of will', maybe that is just the END cost of the suppress (oo 1 or 2 END)....

[Killer Shrike]

Note that by default there is no provision in the rules for 'attacking' oneself. Thus buying powers that are targeted to apply them to yourself makes no sense whatsoever. You should never find yourself in the position of paying points to attack yourself; if you do, then you are probably envisioning the power effect incorrectly.


If you want a power to be on ALL THE TIME then take Always On.



If you want a power to be on ALMOST ALL THE TIME, you probably shouldnt take Always On.

If you do anyway, 5e includes the idea of a "Limited Buy Off", but this concept is in the quantum physics -esque theoretical realm of the HERO System. The concept is logical and doesnt violate the rules directly, but is still kind of out there.

The idea behind the Limited Buy Off is that if you only got X points back for taking a particular Limitation, then it doesnt make sense to pay even 1 point more than that to offset the Limitation. Thus if Always On made a Power cheaper by say 15 points, then you shouldnt have to pay more than 15 points to counteract the Limitation; else, you would just buy the Lim off directly. Since the 15 points (in this case) is what it would cost to get rid of the Lim entirely, it only makes sense to do a partial Buy Off if you are applying some stipulation to the Buy Off itself; ie, putting Limitations on it.

So in the case of Always On, if you can turn off the Always On, but it costs END to do so, or you can only do so X/day (like by taking a serum), or it requires a skill roll, or it requires a FOCI, or only while you are flying, or any other Limitation you can logically apply to it then you simply pay 15 points for the Buy Off (in the case above), and apply any Limitations to that 15 points.

So, frex, if it took a Full Phase at 1/2 DCV to turn the power off, 15 AP Turn off Power X; Full Phase (-1/4; Only to Activate a Constant Power), 1/2 DCV (-1/4), Non-Persistant (-1/4); RC = 8 points

What this means is that you have a power that you got a net 7 point discount on for being on all the time by default, but deactivatable with some effort. Some GMs might look at this and say "Hey -- thats not really limiting at all", which will often be true; keep in mind however that the Always On limitation itself is only applicable in cases where there really is a downside to having a power on all the time. If there is no downside to having the power Always On, then its not a limitation at all and the Limited Buy out is a moot point.




The other ways to handle a power that is on ALMOST ALL THE TIME is to not take Always On, and instead handle the 'cost' of turning the power off by some other method, which is (IMO) best handled as a Susceptibility, but which can also be handled by Side Effects. I prefer Susceptibility because it will net the character fewer overall points than taking Side Effects on the Power AND taking x points of Disadvantages for x more character points. Side Effects assume an Activation Roll or Skill Roll is failed triggering the SE; effects where this is not true and the SE always occurs are worth more as Lims; the net effect of this is a bigger limitation than Always On itself is worth -- ie its more efficient point-wise.

Finally, outside of the box, you can just handle it as Roleplaying Flavor. I personally wouldnt; defining things like that is what the rules system is for -- it doesnt make sense to me to circumvent the system for effects like this which can be elegantly handled and which can have a game effect. RP flavor is best reserved for inconsequentials and schtick, not the circumvention of limitations IMO.

[Rebar]

I'm not sure of your math here... first, assuming the original power is 15 base points with no other Advantages, making it Always On (including the required 0 END Persistent) sends it to 30 AP, and 20 RP.

You forgot the Continuous +1.

Then again. I've been building powers this way so long, I didn't stop to think about whether it *has* to be built this way (i.e. 0End, Contin,Pers,AO).

The base power is Telepathy. So, if he doesn't buy it as Constant, then basically, he has to make an attack roll every phase. I guess that's OK. It's meant to be a curse, not a bonus. Hmm...

[PhilFleischmann]

Life Support: Immune to Metarule #6
SFX: Common Sense

Replace with Metarule #6a:

If there are two ways to build a power, the correct way is the simpler way - not the more expensive, not the less expensive, the simpler.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

IMO the simplest way to build the power is with the optional rule in Fred that says you can turn off an Always On power by spending lots of END and perhaps concentrating too. Buy the Telepathy 0 END Persistent Continuous Always On Communication Only and when you want to turn it off, you can with force of will and GM permission.

[Rebar]

I'm not sure of your math here... first, assuming the original power is 15 base points with no other Advantages, making it Always On (including the required 0 END Persistent) sends it to 30 AP, and 20 RP.

The extra +1 was for Continuous. Otherwise you are making a new attack every phase.

P.S. Let's hope this reply goes through. Twice now, I've replied to this thread and it never showed up...

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Based on Vanguard's thread on the Hero Designer board, maybe Continuous isn't necessary. Apparently Persistent covers that.

[Mr Mole]

No, I'm really just looking for a way of making a small power that is kept off most of the time, but accidentally turns back on whenever he's PRE attacked, stunned, unconscious, etc.

Zaratustra already said it... Accidental Change. Make it a Physical Limitation or somesuch, if it makes more sense to you that way.

Depending on the Power, if it's actually an Advantage to have it suddenly pop "on" (like Teleporting to a secure location when stunned), then the Trigger Advantage might be called for.

Oh. You'll also likely need to make sure the power is Persistent, since it's going to remain active while the character is unconscious.

If you really insist on a Limitation rather than a Disadvantage, try "Only Very Slightly Uncontrolled Under Certain Circumstances -1/4", or something equally silly...:rolleyes:

[Oruncrest]

Use Inherent on pg 165 of the FREd. That way, you can turn the power off by paying END (I would suggest an END cost as high as the Base Cost/10 per phase). For example: FADE has Desolidification, 0END, Persistent, Inherent, Always on for 60 points. Normally, Fade is always desolid, but with an act of will (and paying 4 END/ phase), Fade can solidify to hug people, eat, ect.