Entanglements

[Sean Waters]

Entangles

I’ve never been entirely happy with the way Hero deals with entangles.

First off, let’s get it out of the way, the ability to create barriers with entangle seems like it is an idea past its time. It seems to me that it is one power doing two quite distinct things that don’t need to be together. I’d think that they could be separated, or the barrier bit removed completely: you can probably do it with other powers anyway. Anyway, that’s just there for completeness.

What really causes me problems is more a matter of how they are supposed to work, ad what is supposed to work against them. I mean, you are enveloped in a block of ice, immobile: can you use your martial arts? I mean maybe it is part chi-focussing, but an awful lot of martial arts is just applied leverage: getting extra damage when you can not move should not happen.

Well, the other thing I’m confused about is, assuming that the entangle sfx is glue, and you are stuck with your back to a Throbmoanium™ wall, how are you going to use your eyebeams to escape with one attack? You just can’t target the bits where you are stuck, or if you can you certainly can’t vaporise the whole thing with one shot.

OK you can rule that certain attack powers are less effective or ineffective against entangles, but that makes entangles potentially devastating…but if you don’t take that line then they often make little sense.

Also there is the problem, I suppose related to the one above, of the gravity entangle – I can’t imagine why e.g. energy blasts should allow you break that sort of entangle at all – it sort of makes the entangle NNA (no normal attack)

Finally there is position: if you are in certain positions you can exert far more strength than if you are in others (being spreadeagled means you can exert far less effective strength, if you are bound wrist and ankle, for example).

SO…can anyone give me either..

A new perspective: it is not really a problem at all - I’m just approaching it from the wrong direction..

A new build: entangle (or other powers) can do all I want with the right advantages…

New rules: as a last resort….

Cheers.

[Doc Democracy]

Bloody hell Sean, do you just sit there flicking through the rulebook deciding what to complain about next? :)


Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Personally I'm in the complete rethink on entangle - and would call it immobility. Haven't got any further - like with useful mechanics or anything but I think that Entangle has become so widely used to model effects in Hero beyond what it was ever supposed to.

I think Entangle is obviously derived from Spidey's webshooters but is now used for things like gravity traps which it is not really well designed to model.

Looking forward to the big brains tackle this...


Doc

[ghost-angel]

Entangles

I’ve never been entirely happy with the way Hero deals with entangles.

First off, let’s get it out of the way, the ability to create barriers with entangle seems like it is an idea past its time. It seems to me that it is one power doing two quite distinct things that don’t need to be together. I’d think that they could be separated, or the barrier bit removed completely: you can probably do it with other powers anyway. Anyway, that’s just there for completeness.
Go at it from the other direction... Entangle should really be called Barrier and have two ways of creating the Barrier: Against 1 Target, Against 1 Area. Currently you can do either at will.

If you want to change part of that I would make you chose 1 effect at the time of purchase and have either an Advantage or Adder to do the other.


What really causes me problems is more a matter of how they are supposed to work, ad what is supposed to work against them. I mean, you are enveloped in a block of ice, immobile: can you use your martial arts? I mean maybe it is part chi-focussing, but an awful lot of martial arts is just applied leverage: getting extra damage when you can not move should not happen.
You're stopped. Immobile. No you can't. If it's something like Handcuffs don't forget the "Hands Only" Limitation to properly model the Entangle. Even if your Roundhouse Kick is a "Chi-Focuses Roundhouse" you still need to be able to move your foot.


Well, the other thing I’m confused about is, assuming that the entangle sfx is glue, and you are stuck with your back to a Throbmoanium™ wall, how are you going to use your eyebeams to escape with one attack? You just can’t target the bits where you are stuck, or if you can you certainly can’t vaporise the whole thing with one shot.

OK you can rule that certain attack powers are less effective or ineffective against entangles, but that makes entangles potentially devastating…but if you don’t take that line then they often make little sense.
I can't help you with the interaction of SFX in a game - you seem to get stuck here because there's no points involved and that manages to bother you quite a bit. Moving on...


Also there is the problem, I suppose related to the one above, of the gravity entangle – I can’t imagine why e.g. energy blasts should allow you break that sort of entangle at all – it sort of makes the entangle NNA (no normal attack)
Perhaps Entangle isn't the best Power to use when modeling this particular effect. I'd suggest a strong AoE TK with Downwards Only. But that's me.


Finally there is position: if you are in certain positions you can exert far more strength than if you are in others (being spreadeagled means you can exert far less effective strength, if you are bound wrist and ankle, for example).
The game doesn't take this into effect explicitely, if the GM and Players agree to dramatic sense, story sense and common sense then it's perfectly normal that someone can only exert so much STR from certain position. And then sometimes it's out of Genre to not be able to exert all your STR all the time (Wuxia & Supers for example). Here your probably looking for House Rules based on the Genre Convention you're trying to model.


SO…can anyone give me either..

A new perspective: it is not really a problem at all - I’m just approaching it from the wrong direction..

A new build: entangle (or other powers) can do all I want with the right advantages…

New rules: as a last resort….

Cheers.
New Perspective: Entangle is really "Form Barrier to prevent Locomotion."

New Build: In the Gravity Example I would say Entangle, while usuable, it possibly not the best Power to model that particular effect. Otherwise you'll have to get specific before I can suggest other Powers or builds.

A New Rule: not needed.

[Gadodel]

AoE TK with Downwards Only. That's good.

;)

[Ockham's Spoon]

First off let me say that I agree that the Entangle power should be reconsidered (along with Force Wall) to give barrier and immobility powers separately. If you want to do both, put it in a multipower.

As for circumventing the problem, consider a continuous, persistant TK to "grab" the affected character. There is your gravity well or glue attack. Since any attack power bought as continuous needs a defined way to shut it down, you now don't have to worry about Captain Plasma blasting the gravity well because it can only be shut down by moving a sufficiently large object into it (one that exceeds the lift power of the TK) - or something. Eyebeam Boy can't blast out of the glue trap because he isn't encased in anything and he can't target the wall, so he has no way to attack the TK (what he needs is some solvent... and a better name). Also note here how anyone trying to free Eyebeam Boy with an attack power risks injuring him since the TK does not provide any protection like a standard Entangle would (oh sure you could buy Transparent I know).

Granted, this power can get pretty expensive (a 40 STK TK, Continous, Persistant, 0 END, AoE Hex is 180 Active), but as Sean mentioned it can be pretty powerful. Of course it would be limited (only for performing Grab manuver -1) which softens the blow a bit. Consider though, if you can't use most of your attack powers but just have to rely on STR to breakout, a 40 STR TK will pretty effectively immobilize almost anyone but a brick, so the cost is probably justified.

As for your Martial Artist using his Sidekick to get out of the block of ice, I think that as GM you could reasonably say no; if you can't move your legs you can't kick so you will just have to rely on your brute strength (or your fellow heroes).

__________________________________________________ _______
"I don't want to stop crime. I just want to fight it." - Tick

[Ockham's Spoon]

Ahrg, I type too slowly! Beaten to the punch on AoE TK.

_________________________________________________
"I don't want to stop crime. I just want to fight it." - Tick

[ghost-angel]

AoE TK with Downwards Only. That's good.

;)
Tack on Continuous, perform a Grab Maneuver. Boom - immboilizing Gravity Well.

[Gadodel]

Tack on Continuous, perform a Grab Maneuver. Boom - immboilizing Gravity Well.

Dangerous! :eek:

I wonder what extent of powers a speedster would need to avoid the trap?

[Erkenfresh]

The way I see it, is you take a spell that mimics D&D's "Hold Person" using Entangle. In HERO, the ability to break free is a physical thing. You are pitting your stength versus the strength of the spell.

If you're going the mental route, there's a full section on changing it to be based on the target's EGO as well.

As for poor Eyebeam Boy, I think he should be unable to use his eyebeam. He'll have to rely on good ol' muscles or someone to help him out. Of course, that's not going to prevent him from shooting at any opponents in front of the wall.

[CBikle]

The TK option or a variant looks good. May consider adding a -1/4 limit that the the TK str won't affect anyone with the appropriate Environmental Movement talent.

[Sean Waters]

I like the TK grab idea - many thanks (I think it needs uncontrolled not continuous as TK is already constant):

30 STR TK (45 active points) 0 END (+1/2) uncontrolled (+1/2) One hex AE (+1/2) 112 active points

Only to grab and hold target in place (-1/2)
Doesn't work against appropriate environmental movement (-1/4)

Real cost 64 points

That's not bad: 30 STR would be enough to hold virtually anyone who did not have superstrength - you increase gravity for (say) a turn in that hex.

Like it.

[Sean Waters]

Bloody hell Sean, do you just sit there flicking through the rulebook deciding what to complain about next? :)


Doc


Er....yes? :)

[Sean Waters]

Hmm....the gravity well would not stop the stuck targe from attacking either (as Erkenfresh pointed out) - just give them penalties for doing so. Like it a lot (apart fromt he active cost...could reduce that by removing AoE - entangle isn't, I suppose - could just be your 'personal gravity' that is affected. Then it would cost 51 (90))

On a persona note, thank you to hghost-angel for the useful ideas and in-depth analysis :thumbup:

[Rapier]

THANK GOD!

For a while I was dreading that someone was going to say Mind Control, 1 Command - "Don't Move."

I think I would have hurled.

[Bloodstone]

Really?

hmm.. glad I didn't say Tranform (Area with normal gravity to area with lots more gravity... and stuff...).

you might have gone postal then ;)

But I do agree that Force Wall and Entagle have an awful lot of unncessary overlap and probably should be changed around somwhere down the line...

[Rapier]

Yeah, I can totally understand where you are coming from.

I would much rather some of the Entangle bits (the wall portion) was passed on to Force Wall or perhaps a whole new power...or maybe have ForceWall pulled into the new power also. Something different.

However. I think the base Entangle mechanic is just fine the way it is. The problem with a ToolKit system like Hero is that some of the powers have to be taken with a grain of salt...or perhaps I should say that they let SFX have more sway than actual rules.

For me its never been much of a problem. If your back is glued to a wall (glue entangle), of course you can't use your eyebeams. Just makes sense. I don't need a rule or some involved game mechanic to explain common sense to me.

For me, thats enough.

[ghost-angel]

Hmm....the gravity well would not stop the stuck targe from attacking either - just give them penalties for doing so. Like it a lot (apart fromt he active cost...could reduce that by removing AoE - entangle isn't, I suppose - could just be your 'personal gravity' that is affected. Then it would cost 51 (90))

On a persona note, thank you to hghost-angel for the useful ideas and in-depth analysis :thumbup:
No problemo, is where we're all here for.

Of course ... next time you need to model something and are stuck just say "Hey, having trouble modeling this right..." instead of a rules rant ;)

I hope my explanation of Entangle worked to alleviate some worries or issues with it?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Bloody hell Sean, do you just sit there flicking through the rulebook deciding what to complain about next? :)Heh. I was just wondering the same thing as I began reading the thread... "Sean, is there in fact any mechanic in the HERO System that you do like?" ;)

[Tech]

I like the TK grab idea - many thanks (I think it needs uncontrolled not continuous as TK is already constant):

30 STR TK (45 active points) 0 END (+1/2) uncontrolled (+1/2) One hex AE (+1/2) 112 active points

Only to grab and hold target in place (-1/2)
Doesn't work against appropriate environmental movement (-1/4)

Real cost 64 points

That's not bad: 30 STR would be enough to hold virtually anyone who did not have superstrength - you increase gravity for (say) a turn in that hex.

Like it.

I guess I kinda like this. The problem is that you spent 112 active points (64 real) whereas my 40 str Hero (30 real pts spent on Str) can break out with no real problem. This concept seems to spend too much to achieve the result looked for but then again, the beauty of the Hero Games system is that you can achieve the same results using many different and varied ways. Just in case it's asked, no, at this point I don't have an alternate idea but will think on it.

FYI, my older brother who wants his hero to temporarily timefreeze people in their place used a GM-allowed TK effect, calling it Entangle. It's a special one-hero house rule in effect and everyone's ok with it.

[Sean Waters]

THANK GOD!

For a while I was dreading that someone was going to say Mind Control, 1 Command - "Don't Move."

I think I would have hurled.

Oh it could have been worse...transform target to stuck target. It can ALWAYS get worse, matey!:ugly:


EDIT: Sorry - didn't realise Bloodstone had already beat me to the punch :)

[Sean Waters]

Heh. I was just wondering the same thing as I began reading the thread... "Sean, is there in fact any mechanic in the HERO System that you do like?" ;)

:D

I like it all. I love it.

That's why I get so up-tight when I perceive a problem. I'll be OK if I keep taking the meds .

<opens another an of 'meds'>

Ahh! That's better!

[Sean Waters]

I guess I kinda like this. The problem is that you spent 112 active points (64 real) whereas my 40 str Hero (30 real pts spent on Str) can break out with no real problem. This concept seems to spend too much to achieve the result looked for but then again, the beauty of the Hero Games system is that you can achieve the same results using many different and varied ways. Just in case it's asked, no, at this point I don't have an alternate idea but will think on it.

FYI, my older brother who wants his hero to temporarily timefreeze people in their place used a GM-allowed TK effect, calling it Entangle. It's a special one-hero house rule in effect and everyone's ok with it.

You are right: it IS expensive for what it does on the face of it BUT there are an awful lot of blasters and martial artists and speedsters and so on out there who have less than a 30 STR and it could hold them long enough to mess them up good. It certainly is not a general purpose power, but in the right situation it could be devastating.

One real problem with the active cost - it makes it more difficult to mitigate the cost by popping it into a framework - so it would be something that was out there on its own in all likelyhood.

[Sean Waters]

No problemo, is where we're all here for.

Of course ... next time you need to model something and are stuck just say "Hey, having trouble modeling this right..." instead of a rules rant ;)

I hope my explanation of Entangle worked to alleviate some worries or issues with it?

:) I am trying to be a little less revolutionary in my approach. Time will tell if I'm succeeding.

One thing I find really useful about these boards is that all of the opinions and advice often substantially change my perspective on a problem, often making apparent problems go away (and only very occasionally revealing new ones :whistle:). I have changed my mind on a LOT of things about Hero thanks to these little therapy sessions.

Cheers y'all!

[ghost-angel]

Just keep those 'meds' on tap and I think you'll be fine :)

[bigdamnhero]

I've used TK for a gravity trap before, and it worked ok. Only thing I didn't like was that it becomes an all-or-nothing deal; either you make your STR-vs-STR roll and are free, or you fail your roll and are held.

I've also tried it as a regular Entangle with an "Only takes damage from brute strength & movement powers" advantage. (Can't remember how much we decided that was worth.) That gave more of the "You struggle a few inches closer to the edge of the field..." feeling I wanted. :shrug: Depends on how you see the sfx, I suppose.

I'm of two minds about Eyebeam Guy. I absolutely agree that sometimes sfx has to trump rules, or else what's the point of having sfx. So I can see saying "Sorry, you can't use your eyebeams in this situation."

OTOH... Let's say Generic Energy Projector Gal is stuck to the wall next to Eyebeam Guy. If she gets to use her EB, but he doesn't get to use his, are we penalizing Eyebeam Guy's player for choosing a colorful-and-somewhat-limiting (if not exactly original) sfx? Assuming he didn't take some kind of "restricted arc" limitation on the power, of course.

I think if I were GMing this, I'd have to ask myself if I felt confident that I could do similar things to the other PCs from time to time. Or if there were likely to be a roughly equal number of times when Eyebeam Guy's sfx would be an advantage. If not, I might make him blow a phase on "You can't quite turn your head far enough to cut yourself free..." but then let me cut himself out.

I do agree about seperating barriers out - that always seemed like two-powers-for-the-price-of-one. But then, it's fairly easy to take the "no barriers" lim when appropriate.


bigdamnhero
“A war hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside.”

[WhammeWhamme]

Welll...

Eyebeams could either be bounced off something, or the user could just look down (so you can hit the the glue). Or it could be a limitation on the Eyebeams, since stuff like a blast from the hands wouldn't have near as many similiar problems.

Martial Artists ought to be able to use their skill to wriggle free better and suchlike - and if you're good enough, breaking handcuffs is a very stylish but plausible trick. (Martial Arts is knowing how to better use your strength. It should be able to help you break out of most entangles).

[ghost-angel]

Welll...

Eyebeams could either be bounced off something, or the user could just look down (so you can hit the the glue). Or it could be a limitation on the Eyebeams, since stuff like a blast from the hands wouldn't have near as many similiar problems.
WhammeWhamme brought a good point here... if Eyebeams is determined to be enoug of a limitation on where the Powers source from it's worth a Limitation of some nature... call it "The Eyebeams Limitation" or such and at a -1/4 there's several moderately common applications that occur where defining your EB (or other Powers) as coming from your eyes is disadvantaged over someone who just shoots them from their fists.

[Sean Waters]

Powers are supposed to originate from somewhere. The rules specifically mention eyebeams in discussion - each point of origin having its own advantages and drawbacks - if you have eyebeams then it's easy to aim but diffucult to escape if your hands are tied behind your back.

My problem with this is that you DON'T get any kind of aim bonus, so there is no real advantage but a clear potential disadvantage. I'm not sure how to deal with it in a logical way. We deal with it by ignoring it - we rarely bother defining exactly where a power comes from or bother about the mechanics of how it hits per se. Maybe there is another way (this of course, gives another hidden advantage to strength - it doesn't need a point of origin as it is a whole body thing).

One other problem with the 'glued to a wall' scenario is that even if you can hit the glue, unless you have bought personal immunity you are probably going to (realistically) take some damage. I mean You can probably shoot handcuffs off with a handgun but it will probably take some time and effort to get the gun into position and sting A LOT when the bullet hits.

Back to the power origination point - it might be interesting to have a little table of suggested bonuses for specific locations of origin...

Eyebeams: +1 OCV with power when targetting visually
Handbeams: can use attack as a melee attack rather than ranged
Chestbeam: no OCV penalty to attack grapplers

....and so on. Actually I say 'and so on' but I can't think of that many more locations. Footbeams? Buttbeams?

OK. Maybe not.

[Sean Waters]

WhammeWhamme brought a good point here... if Eyebeams is determined to be enoug of a limitation on where the Powers source from it's worth a Limitation of some nature... call it "The Eyebeams Limitation" or such and at a -1/4 there's several moderately common applications that occur where defining your EB (or other Powers) as coming from your eyes is disadvantaged over someone who just shoots them from their fists.

Mind you it might make it easier to get out of handcuffs if you have eyebeams - fistbeams are going to be awkward to focus on your own wrists :)

[ghost-angel]

Mind you it might make it easier to get out of handcuffs if you have eyebeams - fistbeams are going to be awkward to focus on your own wrists :)
There .. see now you've found an Entangle that your normal blaster has trouble with - and that entangle is (usually) even more common than the glued to the wall one you mentioned for eyebeam guy. Methinks you've rebalanced it out to a 0 cost nonissue.

[Sean Waters]

...or I've found a reason to define my fistbeams as starting at my elbows....

[ghost-angel]

...or I've found a reason to define my fistbeams as starting at my elbows....
that too...

[CBikle]

The Vision is one of those characters who seems to have multiple points of origin for his EB(s). Eyes, hands,his diamond insignia on chest, that jeweled-deal on his forehead.

If it's not already listed elsewhere, Multiple Points Of Origin might make a good 3 pt. adder for EBs, entangles, etc.

I suppose there are some situational power constructs that can give that for free ( indirect, variable special effects, etc.).

[Sean Waters]

The Vision is one of those characters who seems to have multiple points of origin for his EB(s). Eyes, hands,his diamond insignia on chest, that jeweled-deal on his forehead.

If it's not already listed elsewhere, Multiple Points Of Origin might make a good 3 pt. adder for EBs, entangles, etc.

I suppose there are some situational power constructs that can give that for free ( indirect, variable special effects, etc.).


I think the system favoured method is indirect, but that tends to make it a bit expensive. I wouldn't mind an adder instead, or even changing it around and saying that attacks can come from anywhere and you get -1/4 for picking a location they come from (as previously suggested).

[Erkenfresh]

Well if you had a buttbeam, it wouldn't help you if your chest is glued to a wall. If you had elbowbeams, probably the same situation depending on which side of the elbow the beam comes out. ;)

For someone who has handbeams, he might have trouble in grappling situations or up close whereas someone with eyebeams can more than likely at least get his opponent in his field of view to fire. I think you're splitting hairs here. I wouldn't worry about advantages/disadvantages of a SFX too much. If it gets overwhelming, you might make the player buy a Powers skill to compensate.

[Sean Waters]

My concern is not the exact sfx of location related EBs but the effect that enforcing that rule has on entangles: for quite a lot of characters it would make entangles really quite devastating.

OTOH I now need to create a character witha buttbeam....

[ghost-angel]

Entangles are powerful, but most people play in groups which means a team which means you can have multiple people helping you so it's no ness. your SFX that comes into play.

[Rapier]

The main problem I have with a TK "Entangle" is that its permanent. You spend x amount of pts on a 30 STR TK Entangle. Louie the Eye Beamer gets caught in your Entangle. Louie has 18 STR and can't see the glue sticking his back to a wall. HE'S STUCK...FOREVER.

Ok, maybe not forever, but a long long time.

If he pushes his STR to 28 he is almost equal. In a STR vs STR he JUST might break out...if he doesn't run out of END first.

What if its a 50 STR TK Entangle and Julie the Mentalist only has 10 STR? She can only push her STR to 20. A STR vs STR of 50 vs 20? She's just might be stuck for quite a while.

The current Entangle rules are not necessarily a lot better. Julie is still screwed with an Entangle with 5 DEF, but at least there is a mechanic for chipping away at the Entangle and eventually freeing herself.

If the Entangle, as a power, were moved more to the TK direction there would almost need to be some kind of Ablative on the power to allow a character to work themselves free over time.

[ghost-angel]

Agreed - and I wouldn't recommend using TK to replace Entangle. I simply stated that for the SFX Sean was describing a TK would model it much better.

Adding Physical Manifestation to TK gives it a BODY and DEF characteristic that can be attacked however.

[Peregrine]

Can't a martial artist use a Martial Escape to increase their effective STR for escaping an Entangle?

[ghost-angel]

Yes.

[bigdamnhero]

Right, but might not that depend on sfx as well? Handcuffs, sure; glue-gun, probably; gravity trap...I dunno.


bigdamnhero
“I had a plan…A good plan. Smart. Carefully laid out. But I got bored. All that watching, waiting. My legs started to cramp.”

[ghost-angel]

All things are subject to Dramatic and Common Sense as well as GMs discretion.

Mechanically however, I believe Mar. Escape may be used against Entangles.

[Sean Waters]

The main problem I have with a TK "Entangle" is that its permanent. You spend x amount of pts on a 30 STR TK Entangle. Louie the Eye Beamer gets caught in your Entangle. Louie has 18 STR and can't see the glue sticking his back to a wall. HE'S STUCK...FOREVER.

Ok, maybe not forever, but a long long time.

If he pushes his STR to 28 he is almost equal. In a STR vs STR he JUST might break out...if he doesn't run out of END first.

What if its a 50 STR TK Entangle and Julie the Mentalist only has 10 STR? She can only push her STR to 20. A STR vs STR of 50 vs 20? She's just might be stuck for quite a while.

The current Entangle rules are not necessarily a lot better. Julie is still screwed with an Entangle with 5 DEF, but at least there is a mechanic for chipping away at the Entangle and eventually freeing herself.

If the Entangle, as a power, were moved more to the TK direction there would almost need to be some kind of Ablative on the power to allow a character to work themselves free over time.

I agree, and this really goes to the heart of what I'm on about. If you play the 'power emanation point' rules with entangle the problem is as grave. Real-point wise TK and normal entangles work out about he same (in fact normal entangles are cheaper)

ghost-angel makes an excellent point though: in a group, whilst you might not be able to escape the entangle/TK there will be SOMEONE who can get you out, alost certainly. Group synergy is often not considered, and I do feel that there is an ingrained havit in Hero (and I'm guilty myself) of assuming that all characters have to be self sufficient and all powers balanced for all characters. Thinking in group terms spreads the balance issues a lot, and, to my mind, is a lot more genre appropriate.

[casualplayer]

Considering Gravitar has the gravity well power at 50 STR and can easily use other of her powers at the same time, how come she gets no respect? It's the long-talied mullet I tell you. A couple hours at a good day spa and she is Master Villain material and looking sassy.

I second the suggestions that Entangle and Force Wall should have been seperated and retooled into something like Immobilize and Create DEF/BODY. After I kludge my Entangle into a Mental Entangle, can I still create barriers? That seems wrong, and indicative of the problem. I shouldn't have to file down my tools for them to be useful.

Immobilize could go the Adder route and affect specific areas (arm, arms, leg, legs, head, any one limb, whole body) and have a definable-at-creation breakout method.

Create could have an Adder for the equivalent of Fine Work, called Detailed or Intricate, or you could just make big chunks of ice, webbing, etc. The AE advantages already cover all the rules you would need for how much area could be covered at once.

I would recommend that these powers try not to include too much under their scope. Any character with the ability to create, excuse me, Create highly intricate items like firearms or sentient life should have VPPs or MPs to represent their versatility.

I'd have to playtest point costs for these, and I don't have a playtest group. Is there anything here worth pursuing?

[Sean Waters]

Well given that you can sumon vehicles, you could presumably sumon barriers too. Then, of course, you'd have to persuade them to help you:

Oh go on, block the door...

Don't want to!

[bigdamnhero]

ghost-angel makes an excellent point though: in a group, whilst you might not be able to escape the entangle/TK there will be SOMEONE who can get you out, alost certainly. Group synergy is often not considered, and I do feel that there is an ingrained havit in Hero (and I'm guilty myself) of assuming that all characters have to be self sufficient and all powers balanced for all characters. Thinking in group terms spreads the balance issues a lot, and, to my mind, is a lot more genre appropriate.
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Sean Waters again."
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ghost-angel again."

Very well put. That's what a team is supposed to be all about - the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.


bigdamnhero
“If people see you are unarmed, they'll never hurt you...nine times out of ten.”

[BoneDaddy]

There is no faster, cheaper way to generate a huge pile o' whatever than an area effect entangle.

Example: Super Sailor, villainous vigilante of free speech, is making a hasty getaway after being foiled at the entrance to the MacDuck family vaults. Scrooge MacDuck stops the silly thief with his patented "bury him in dimes" attack, an AOE 3d6 entangle. Viola. 19 hexes fill with dimes, leaving poor Super Sailor stuck in the middle.

The dimes don't disappear under ordinary circumstances. Perhaps Scrooge has them as recoverable charges, or perhaps he just tanks the local economy every few weeks.

Scrooge rolls up his sleeves, mutters about the poor caliber of villains these days, and begins a devastating series of 1 pip penetrating RKAs to poor hapless Super Sailor. The nickels plink off his armor, so scrooge starts making targeted shots, nickel and diming Super Sailor to death. (sorry)

[Sean Waters]

There is no faster, cheaper way to generate a huge pile o' whatever than an area effect entangle.

Example: Super Sailor, villainous vigilante of free speech, is making a hasty getaway after being foiled at the entrance to the MacDuck family vaults. Scrooge MacDuck stops the silly thief with his patented "bury him in dimes" attack, an AOE 3d6 entangle. Viola. 19 hexes fill with dimes, leaving poor Super Sailor stuck in the middle.

The dimes don't disappear under ordinary circumstances. Perhaps Scrooge has them as recoverable charges, or perhaps he just tanks the local economy every few weeks.

Scrooge rolls up his sleeves, mutters about the poor caliber of villains these days, and begins a devastating series of 1 pip penetrating RKAs to poor hapless Super Sailor. The nickels plink off his armor, so scrooge starts making targeted shots, nickel and diming Super Sailor to death. (sorry)

You certainly ought to be sorry :)

This is an interesting idea, and not one I've seen expounded before: technically it should be a dome, I suppose, so an AWFUL lot of stuff to fight through....of course Super Sailor would be getting the advantages that he has all those hexes of protection and can't be seen from outside, but even so....it would slow a body down, wouldn't it....?

Thinking about it I'm not sure this is legal: much as you can not increase the size of a force wall by buying AoE I doubt you can do it with the barrier function of entangle (one more reason, perhaps, why they should be seperate powers) but interesting idea....

[Killer Shrike]

Go at it from the other direction... Entangle should really be called Barrier and have two ways of creating the Barrier: Against 1 Target, Against 1 Area. Currently you can do either at will.

If you want to change part of that I would make you chose 1 effect at the time of purchase and have either an Advantage or Adder to do the other.


You're stopped. Immobile. No you can't. If it's something like Handcuffs don't forget the "Hands Only" Limitation to properly model the Entangle. Even if your Roundhouse Kick is a "Chi-Focuses Roundhouse" you still need to be able to move your foot.


I can't help you with the interaction of SFX in a game - you seem to get stuck here because there's no points involved and that manages to bother you quite a bit. Moving on...


Perhaps Entangle isn't the best Power to use when modeling this particular effect. I'd suggest a strong AoE TK with Downwards Only. But that's me.


The game doesn't take this into effect explicitely, if the GM and Players agree to dramatic sense, story sense and common sense then it's perfectly normal that someone can only exert so much STR from certain position. And then sometimes it's out of Genre to not be able to exert all your STR all the time (Wuxia & Supers for example). Here your probably looking for House Rules based on the Genre Convention you're trying to model.


New Perspective: Entangle is really "Form Barrier to prevent Locomotion."

New Build: In the Gravity Example I would say Entangle, while usuable, it possibly not the best Power to model that particular effect. Otherwise you'll have to get specific before I can suggest other Powers or builds.

A New Rule: not needed.
Agreed.

Also, Entangles are obstructions that are interacted with as independent objects. Effects that immobilize but do not obstruct, or that are not interacted with as independant objects are better built with other base powers like Force Wall and Telekinesis.

I will agree that the Power, like many other base Powers, is misnamed however.

[ghost-angel]

I will agree that the Power, like many other base Powers, is misnamed however.
Indeed.

In fact, whenever I build something I ignore the names of the powers and concentrate on what they achieve and what the implied intent is.

Power Names are merely convenient shorthand at this point.

[PhilFleischmann]

30 STR TK (45 active points) 0 END (+1/2) uncontrolled (+1/2) One hex AE (+1/2) 112 active points

Only to grab and hold target in place (-1/2)
Doesn't work against appropriate environmental movement (-1/4)

Real cost 64 points
The book cautions against Uncontrolled powers that cost no END - you can keep them going forever. I wouldn't buy 0 END for this, or I'd probably not allow a PC to buy it in a game I was running. 1/2 END, OK. Also, you don't necessarily need AE - just target the defender himself. That saves you 45 Active Points right there.

And how does a martial artist/speedster/etc deal with this attack? Dodge, DFC.

And don't worry about Eyebeam Boy. For every position that he won't be able to get out of, there's a position that equally inconveniences Handbeam Boy, Buttbeam Boy, Crotchbeam Boy, and Chestbeam Girl.

And you can also use the Power skill with your eyebeams to chip off bits of glue without chipping off bits of yourself.

I like Entangle pretty much the way it is.

[Sean Waters]

The book cautions against Uncontrolled powers that cost no END - you can keep them going forever. I wouldn't buy 0 END for this, or I'd probably not allow a PC to buy it in a game I was running. 1/2 END, OK. Also, you don't necessarily need AE - just target the defender himself. That saves you 45 Active Points right there.

And how does a martial artist/speedster/etc deal with this attack? Dodge, DFC.

And don't worry about Eyebeam Boy. For every position that he won't be able to get out of, there's a position that equally inconveniences Handbeam Boy, Buttbeam Boy, Crotchbeam Boy, and Chestbeam Girl.

And you can also use the Power skill with your eyebeams to chip off bits of glue without chipping off bits of yourself.

I like Entangle pretty much the way it is.

1. Quite right on uncontrolled: I suggested in the original post that it chould last a turn - not time unlimited. you could do the same thing with 1 turn continuing charges, which wouldn't need uncontrolled. I bought uncontrolled (or the continuing charges) so that there was no confusion over how many you could have running simultaneously - a bit of a grey area at present with constant powers.

2. Again quite right - the problem I have is not so much the advantages and disadvantages of various emanation points it is:
a) using emanation points at all vastly changes the combat dynamics of certain sfx for grab and entangles - to be honest we rarely bother defining or worrying about it, but it is a point I can see arising.
b) strength doesn't have a power emanation point in the same way - so applying the rule weakens many powers in comparison to strength.

What is your view on barriers being included as part of the entangle power? Remember that interesting discussion a few months ago about ENTANGLE ARMOUR? I think it engenders confusion, but maybe I'm easily confused :doi:

[PhilFleischmann]

What is your view on barriers being included as part of the entangle power? Remember that interesting discussion a few months ago about ENTANGLE ARMOUR? I think it engenders confusion, but maybe I'm easily confused :doi:
I don't have any problem with it. It's perfectly appropriate. The Entangle power does one thing: create an essentially continuous, undifferentiated surface of stuff that has BODY and DEF, which you can't move through without breaking it. If you wrap the stuff around an individual, they can't move. If you place it to block a path, people can't move along that path at that point.

I don't remember a thread about Entangle Armor, so I'm making an assumption about what that means. It seems to me perfectly reasonable for Spiderman to wrap himself in a cocoon to protect himself from some Big Bad Dangerous Event. This is a purely defensive move and seems perfectly fair to me. He can't do anything but lie there in a fetal position until the storm passes. (Presumably, whatever it is will blow away most of the Entangle, and then he just has to break off the rest of it and get back up.)

Almost all powers can "do more than one thing". An Energy Blast can:

- Make a person unconscious
- Make a person dead
- Break an inanimate object
- Knock a person/object back
- Stun a person

Should EB be split into five different powers?

I can't help but recall the old thread about renaming all the powers. Sure, you could find many excellent justifications for doing so, but what will you have gained? If you recall, I renamed Dr. Destroyer to Dr. Happykitty, and it didn't help much at all.

[Sean Waters]

I don't have any problem with it. It's perfectly appropriate. The Entangle power does one thing: create an essentially continuous, undifferentiated surface of stuff that has BODY and DEF, which you can't move through without breaking it. If you wrap the stuff around an individual, they can't move. If you place it to block a path, people can't move along that path at that point.

I don't remember a thread about Entangle Armor, so I'm making an assumption about what that means. It seems to me perfectly reasonable for Spiderman to wrap himself in a cocoon to protect himself from some Big Bad Dangerous Event. This is a purely defensive move and seems perfectly fair to me. He can't do anything but lie there in a fetal position until the storm passes. (Presumably, whatever it is will blow away most of the Entangle, and then he just has to break off the rest of it and get back up.)

Almost all powers can "do more than one thing". An Energy Blast can:

- Make a person unconscious
- Make a person dead
- Break an inanimate object
- Knock a person/object back
- Stun a person

Should EB be split into five different powers?

I can't help but recall the old thread about renaming all the powers. Sure, you could find many excellent justifications for doing so, but what will you have gained? If you recall, I renamed Dr. Destroyer to Dr. Happykitty, and it didn't help much at all.

Energy blast delivers damage in accordance with the damage rules in the game: it is a single effect even though it may have multiple consequences.

Entangle OTOH is actually defined in the text as two different effects: restrain, imobilise, paralyse...it can also be used to create barriers. I see that as two seperate effects, and I think with some justification.

Just looking through past posts it is clearly a point that has exercised a lot of minds.

(The entangle armour thread - which i can't easily find myself now - was mainly about adding personal immunity so that you could effectively wear an entangle as armour. This, it was decided, was not appropriate)

[PhilFleischmann]

Energy blast delivers damage in accordance with the damage rules in the game: it is a single effect even though it may have multiple consequences.

Entangle OTOH is actually defined in the text as two different effects: restrain, imobilise, paralyse...it can also be used to create barriers. I see that as two seperate effects, and I think with some justification.
This seems like no more than a semantic quibble to me. What difference does it make if the two applications are both described in the power section, or if they're described elsewhere? (Breaking Things, Taking Damage). Entangle means you can't move from A to B. If A is "inside" and B is "outside" you've got a single target entangled. If A is the front of the room and B is the Back of the room, you've got a barrier. This isn't brain surgery.


(The entangle armour thread - which i can't easily find myself now - was mainly about adding personal immunity so that you could effectively wear an entangle as armour. This, it was decided, was not appropriate)
Kind of silly. Seems like a waste of points to me: 1d6 Entangle, Personal Immunity, No Range, Self Only, would cost (10 x 1.25)/(1+1) = 6.25 points per point of DEF and (average) 1 BODY. Whereas for 6 points you can buy 2 rPD, 2 rED Armor, which doesn't cost END, and isn't chipped away by attacks.

[Sean Waters]

This seems like no more than a semantic quibble to me. What difference does it make if the two applications are both described in the power section, or if they're described elsewhere? (Breaking Things, Taking Damage). Entangle means you can't move from A to B. If A is "inside" and B is "outside" you've got a single target entangled. If A is the front of the room and B is the Back of the room, you've got a barrier. This isn't brain surgery.

Fairy Nuff. Of course (because I can never quite let it go, can I?) if you use the power to creae a barrier it can not also immobilise someone, even if you target the hex they are in, which, to me makes it seem like two different things. I may well be wrong.



Kind of silly. Seems like a waste of points to me: 1d6 Entangle, Personal Immunity, No Range, Self Only, would cost (10 x 1.25)/(1+1) = 6.25 points per point of DEF and (average) 1 BODY. Whereas for 6 points you can buy 2 rPD, 2 rED Armor, which doesn't cost END, and isn't chipped away by attacks.

I'm pretty sure that is the conclusion the thread came to :)

[PhilFleischmann]

Fairy Nuff. Of course (because I can never quite let it go, can I?) if you use the power to creae a barrier it can not also immobilise someone, even if you target the hex they are in, which, to me makes it seem like two different things. I may well be wrong.
I can hold on just as long as you can. :nya: If you use an EB you attack someone, you can't also use it to break the object they're holding at the same time, even though it's in the same hex. That's just as much "two different things."

And I suppose you could rapid fire/Autofire your entangle to hit one guy and make a barrier in his hex at the same time if you wanted.

[Sean Waters]

I can hold on just as long as you can. :nya: If you use an EB you attack someone, you can't also use it to break the object they're holding at the same time, even though it's in the same hex. That's just as much "two different things."

And I suppose you could rapid fire/Autofire your entangle to hit one guy and make a barrier in his hex at the same time if you wanted.

You can indeed always be relied upon :)

Of course an unadvantaged EB can not target a whole hex whereas one power under the entangle umbrella can and the other can't. The TARGET of the EB can only be a single thing, and that thing cannot include an area.

(Shall we limit ourselves to a certain number of posts or just go on until the server runs out of memory :D?)

[prestidigitator]

Well given that you can sumon vehicles, you could presumably sumon barriers too. Then, of course, you'd have to persuade them to help you:

Oh go on, block the door...

Don't want to!
HA! Well, there is certainly no question that you could Summon a creature with enough Growth and the right dimensions. Make it an immobile creature (0 point Disadvantage) and it may not have much of a choice (of course, that part may be stepping back over the line a tad). :)