How many points should Comic Book level Supers start with?

[OddHat]

Recent rules discussions have reminded me just how har it can be to model common Comic Book shticks on a 350 point budget without resorting to very complicated builds. Assume you have a group of players who want to play a team on the level of, say, the West Coast Avengers? How many points are they able to build on? Standard Supers at 350? Do you give them 600 or more points to play with? Or what?

This is not meant to be a "right" or "wrong" sort of thread. I was just wondering, among HERO players, how many points do you like to work with for a comic book feel?

(To those about to post "It's not just about points, it's about style", yes, we all know. The thread is about points.)

[Trained Chicken]

350. While you can go above that, the game starts breaking down a little, due to absolutes. You can build a heck of a lot on 350, if you stick to AP or DC caps.

[Hermit]

Blah blah blah varies... blah blah blah good for some, not for others... blah blah blah fishnets and pie

blah.

[Vanguard00]

Blah blah blah varies... blah blah blah good for some, not for others... blah blah blah fishnets and pie

blah.
That's gotta be one of the best quotes I've seen. Seriously, you can use that in just about any discussion.

And for the record, I agree with it.

[Wanderer]

I know it's a taste thing, but in my mind, you cannot be a REAL super if you cannot laugh off puny mortals, and only another super can really stop you, and in most circumstances, that takes at least 700-800 points.

[Trebuchet]

I think 350 is fine as a starting point for almost any comic book character. You could easily build the early Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor, Batman, or even 1940's-era Superman on 350 points. XP to taste.

[Wanderer]

I think 350 is fine as a starting point for almost any comic book character. You could easily build the early Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor, Batman, or even 1940's-era Superman on 350 points. XP to taste.

I have quite serious doubts you can do even the early Thor with 350 pts. Plus, you can't really do any version of Superman past, say, 1945, not any version of Iron Man past the early '60s (say after the armor lost the blocky appearance and become fitting the human body). IMO, 350 pts. is too restricted to doing street level like Spider-Man. It leaves out far too much of the iconics past their earliest comic appearances (e.g. you can do the FF in their earliest issues, but surely not them past say the first one-third of the Kirby run) and too much of the high-end genre. If you wish to start play with the JLA or the Avengers (the real ones, not the wussies or the comic relief), 350 pts. is a no-no. Ditto if you wish classic F4 or X-Men that are not regressed to issue #1.

At least not without having a Master in Hero Min-Maxing and Rules Abuse, and maybe not even then.

[Boll Weevil]

I'm with the Chicken. 350-450 works best for me.

[Trebuchet]

I have quite serious doubts you can do even the early Thor with 350 pts. Plus, you can't really do any version of Superman past, say, 1945, not any version of Iron Man past the early '60s (say after the armor lost the blocky appearance and become fitting the human body). IMO, 350 pts. is too restricted to doing street level like Spider-Man. It leaves out far too much of the iconics past their earliest comic appearances (e.g. you can do the FF in their earliest issues, but surely not them past say the first one-third of the Kirby run) and too much of the high-end genre. If you wish to start play with the JLA or the Avengers (the real ones, not the wussies or the comic relief), 350 pts. is a no-no. Ditto if you wish classic F4 or X-Men that are not regressed to issue #1.

At least not without having a Master in Hero Min-Maxing and Rules Abuse, and maybe not even then.There's a reason I said "early versions" and "XP to taste." I think many gamers have an inflated view of what the early versions of their favorite characters could actually do. Unless you're my age, childhood memories for most comic book fans are about characters already ten to twenty years into their careers. It's hard to remember that some of these iconic characters have been around for over 40 years; and in Superman's case nearly 70! And neither the Justice League nor the Avengers were formed from novice heroes.

The early Thor was a very basic brick. He still whirled Mjölnir in front of him as a shield to avoid being hit by bullets; the clear implication is that bullets were a threat. He flew by chucking that big honkin' hammer in the general direction he wanted to go and hanging on to the handle strap; early versions of his flight look much more like Leaping than actual Flight.

As has been noted in other threads, the early Spider-Man was a kid whose two greatest foes were a geriatric flying guy and a pudgy scientist with extra arms and normal human defenses.

Early Iron Man was a typical Powered Armor guy with Armor, EB, Flight, and HRRP. Easy to do on 350.

The original X-Men (possibly barring Professor X) could have been easily done with 250 points; they were each one trick ponies. Iceman would have been the most difficult; but an Elemental Control and Power Tricks skill would suffice for most of his powers. Cyclops was a normal athlete with eye beams. Marvel Girl had limited telepathy and telekinetics. Beast was a run of the mill demi-brick with above average DEX and some science skills. Angel could fly - period.

Likewise for the early FF; only Reed Richards is a challenge on 350 and that's only because his Science Skills would be expensive.

[OddHat]

The early Thor was a very basic brick. He still whirled Mjölnir in front of him as a shield to avoid being hit by bullets; the clear implication is that bullets were a threat. He flew by chucking that big honkin' hammer in the general direction he wanted to go and hanging on to the handle strap; early versions of his flight look much more like Leaping than actual Flight.

Thumper God, while he is a parody character, can do everything the early Thor could do and a few things he couldn't, all on 350 points.

[Supreme Serpent]

As has been noted in other threads, the early Spider-Man was a kid whose two greatest foes were a geriatric flying guy and a pudgy scientist with extra arms and normal human defenses.

Heh. I just got done reading the Essential Spider-Man where Blackie Drago temporarily becomes the new Vulture. Lots of "No one can stop a man with wings!" and "A man with wings can do anything! ANYTHING!" lines. Fun stuff from back in the days of one-schtick characters. :thumbup:

[Trebuchet]

Thumper God, while he is a parody character, can do everything the early Thor could do and a few things he couldn't, all on 350 points.Cool. Have you got him posted somewhere I can see him?

[Haerandir]

I voted for "Too many variables" and, of course, "Pie". However, it's been my experience that 350 points is sufficient for most character concepts, except for a few boundary cases and concepts where the whole point is "obscene gobs of power".

[OddHat]

Cool. Have you got him posted somewhere I can see him?

Sure. Thumper God and his amazing Flying Thunder Goats. (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40132&highlight=Thumper+God)

[incrdbil]

[QUOTE=Trebuchet]There's a reason I said "early versions" and "XP to taste." [\QUOTE]

There is a lot you can do with power pools that will fit nicely onto most 350 point charcters as well.

a 90 point Cosmic Power pool with 1/2 in various limits (HIDO, or limited class of powers) 30 points in defensive powers or other abilities, that leave you 140 for skills, characteristics--gets even easier if the powers you are emultating in number and abiility let you get away with a 75 point pool.

[Sketchpad]

I think that 350 is good for starting heroes ... while 500+ is good for experienced ones.

[Kristopher]

Depends on the character.

Nothing good can come from trying to cram an epic superhuman into a street-level total, or bloat out a street-level character into the point total needed to stat out the epic-level supers.

[Kristopher]

There is a lot you can do with power pools that will fit nicely onto most 350 point charcters as well.

a 90 point Cosmic Power pool with 1/2 in various limits (HIDO, or limited class of powers) 30 points in defensive powers or other abilities, that leave you 140 for skills, characteristics--gets even easier if the powers you are emultating in number and abiility let you get away with a 75 point pool.

I'd have to ask if the character in question actually has a VPP, or if the VPP is just being used to cram a character into far too few points.

[incrdbil]

I'd have to ask if the character in question actually has a VPP, or if the VPP is just being used to cram a character into far too few points.

Given the way some writers have character manifest a power, then rarely ever bring it to play, it would serve in such instances.


A VPP isn't cramming a character into too few points; points aren't the measuring stick of properly making a character. If tyhe VPP doesn't have enough points to do everyday, common powers, then maybe its not enough. Liberal use of megascale or megaarea can help in ths regard for certain concepts. But other than that, I don't see how cramming a VPP in a character means you are doing them in too few points. Its a tool to give the characters the abilities to meet a concept. A Wolverine type wouldn't be right to simulate in a VPP, or Spiderman. They rarely display somethign odd out of their usual defined powers.

Iceman, Scarlett Witch, Storm, or many superspeeders it would serve quite well, as the VPP reflects the manipulation of one fx into many different forms.

For many characters, it would work, especially for their initial appearances. some characters just get so distorted after a while there is really no point even trying to recreate them; poor writing or poor adhereance to contiinuity means trying to recreate every instance of a power usage by a comic character is an impossible goal, and perhaps not one worth persuing in the first place.

[Kristopher]

A VPP isn't cramming a character into too few points; points aren't the measuring stick of properly making a character.

That second part is why I'd rather just put more points in a character than use a VPP for a character who really shouldn't have one.

[incrdbil]

That second part is why I'd rather just put more points in a character than use a VPP for a character who really shouldn't have one.

:think:

I could have sworn I said that I said a VPP wasn't appropriate for all characters.

To clarify: some heroes have pretty much set in stone abilities: they x, y, and z, and thats it. Others have a common bag of tricks, then all sorts of unusual applications from time to time. That second bunch, hard to do at 350at times, are probably best served by the VPP.

But in the end, weather you poor on unlimited points to buy every Aability you knwo the character did or not, or give them a specialzed VPP as long as you create the NPC you want, it doesn't matter.

[Kristopher]

I could have sworn I said that I said a VPP wasn't appropriate for all characters.


I was just pointing out that we're probably starting from the same spot when it comes to that.

[Powerhouse]

I agree with Trechebut (sorry to mangle the spelling). You can do alot of characters on 350 pts, even an Avengers/JLA. You may have to toss out some of the more exotic plot device stuff.

Superman is an example. Just give him high strength, flight, toughness, and above average speed and a MP with heatvision/cold breath/X-ray vision/whatever. He might not be as devestating as the Kal-El of the Silver Age but he's too powerful for a game anyway. You can create a Superman that feels like Superman and fits into a team on 350 pts.

From my own examples, my primary team is the Silver Knights. They are the first team in a generation and act as the world's JLA/Avengers and yet started out at 350 pts in part because I control the power levesl of everyone else. There is not 2000 pt Dr. Destroyer for example. Scale the villains appropriate and just play them as the JLA and you get the JLA.

Also, if the point totals don't let you laugh off the norms, you can reduce the power levels of their stuff (I remember that we had a huge arguement here one day about a tank having a 6d6 RKA) and give their vehicle the vulnerabilty of X2 Body against Super attacks.

[Victim]

:think:

I could have sworn I said that I said a VPP wasn't appropriate for all characters.

To clarify: some heroes have pretty much set in stone abilities: they x, y, and z, and thats it. Others have a common bag of tricks, then all sorts of unusual applications from time to time. That second bunch, hard to do at 350at times, are probably best served by the VPP.

But in the end, weather you poor on unlimited points to buy every Aability you knwo the character did or not, or give them a specialzed VPP as long as you create the NPC you want, it doesn't matter.

The second bunch is probably best served by use of the Power Skill to stretch their powers a bit.

[Ura-Maru]

I don't see how it matters. I always come up 25 points short, no matter what the starting number is . . .

[austenandrews]

Can't do street-level with 350 points? Pshaw! I used to run Golden Age at 200 pts and modern at 250 starting. Both were more than fine - in some cases overpowered, even. Honestly I don't see any reason not to continue doing that. (Though in fairness, I haven't run Champs in 5E yet.)

[Rage]

I don't see how it matters. I always come up 25 points short, no matter what the starting number is . . .
and that is the truth of Hero isn't it?

[Trebuchet]

I agree with Trechebut (sorry to mangle the spelling). You can do alot of characters on 350 pts, even an Avengers/JLA. You may have to toss out some of the more exotic plot device stuff.

Superman is an example. Just give him high strength, flight, toughness, and above average speed and a MP with heatvision/cold breath/X-ray vision/whatever. He might not be as devestating as the Kal-El of the Silver Age but he's too powerful for a game anyway. You can create a Superman that feels like Superman and fits into a team on 350 pts.I'm not sure you can quite build a good Superman knockoff on 350 points, but I agree with your general point. Relative power is far more important than absolute.


From my own examples, my primary team is the Silver Knights. They are the first team in a generation and act as the world's JLA/Avengers and yet started out at 350 pts in part because I control the power levesl of everyone else. There is not 2000 pt Dr. Destroyer for example. Scale the villains appropriate and just play them as the JLA and you get the JLA.

Also, if the point totals don't let you laugh off the norms, you can reduce the power levels of their stuff (I remember that we had a huge arguement here one day about a tank having a 6d6 RKA) and give their vehicle the vulnerabilty of X2 Body against Super attacks.Our experience with our MidGuard team has been similar. We are the top guns; there is no more powerful team to go to for help if MidGuard falls. There are a few powerful solo heroes out there, but the few other hero teams are all less powerful than MidGuard. And since we don't play in the cU, limiting the power of villains is relatively straightforward.

We were just like in your game the first superheroes. It was up to the players what path they wanted to take. They could easily have become X-Men like heroes on the run. But they opted for the high road and now here we are, saving Earth from aliens. :cheers:

[megaplayboy]

450, for most modern comic book characters starting out. For New Mutants types, 250 is fine. For a new street hero or mid-level type, 350 might be okay.

[OddHat]

I'm not sure you can quite build a good Superman knockoff on 350 points, but I agree with your general point. Relative power is far more important than absolute.


LEGEND
Val Char Cost Roll Notes
30/60 STR 20 15- / 21- Lift 1600.0kg/102.4tons; 6d6/12d6 [3/6] Note: 120 STR at full power
23 DEX 39 14- OCV: 8/DCV: 8
28 CON 36 15-
15 BODY 10 12-
18 INT 8 13- PER Roll 13-
13 EGO 6 12- ECV: 4
20 PRE 10 13- PRE Attack: 4d6
20 COM 5 13-

6/27 PD 0 Total: 6/27 PD (0/15 rPD)
6/26 ED 0 Total: 6/26 ED (0/14 rED)
4 SPD 7 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12
12 REC 0
56 END 0
44 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 141

Movement: Running: 6"/12"
Flight: 12"/24"
Leaping: 6"/12"
Swimming: 2"/4"

Cost Powers END
30 Powers Far Beyond Those of Mortal Men: Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); all slots Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1)
Notes: These applications of Legend's stored magical energy are exhausting, and should be used with caution.
3u 1) Blazing Eyes of Divine Fire: Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1) 18
2u 2) Legendary Strength: +60 STR (60 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) 18
Notes: Legend can briefly focus his magic to vastly boost his physical strength, striking blows of incredible force and lifting astounding weights. STR becomes 120 and requires a total of 24 END per use.
2u 3) His Terrible Swift Hand: Hand-To-Hand Attack +5d6, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2) (56 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 18
Notes: This 10d6 blow can strike virtually any foe, even ghosts and spirits.
2u 4) To Stand Unharmed at the Heart of a Star: Desolidification (affected by Magic) (40 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1) 12
3u 5) Breath of Truth: Dispel 10d6, any Magic power one at a time (+1/4), Cumulative (120 points; +3/4) (60 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1) 18
3u 6) Touch of The Earth: Major Transform 4d6 (Sick Person into Well Person, "healed" by re-infection) (60 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1) 18
2u 7) Touch of The Earth II: Healing Any Characteristic 4d6, Can Heal Limbs, any Characteristic one at a time (+1/4) (56 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2) 18
18 Legendary Aura: Elemental Control, 36-point powers
18 1) Steel Hard Skin Forged in the Fires of Creation Itself: Force Field (15 PD/14 ED), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (36 Active Points) 3
18 2) Speed of The Messenger: Flight 12", Variable Advantage (+1/4 Advantages; +1/2) (36 Active Points) 4
19 3) The Might of the Titans of Old: Density Increase (6,400 kg mass, +30 STR, +6 PD/ED, -6" KB), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (37 Active Points) 3
19 4) To Draw Upon The Very Power Of The Earth Itself!: Healing 1 BODY, Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (70 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2)
23 Eyes of Perfect Clarity: (Total: 29 Active Cost, 23 Real Cost) N-Ray Perception (Sight Group) (10 Active Points); Visible (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8) plus Nightvision (5 Active Points); Visible (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) plus Detect Magic and the Supernatural 13- (Unusual Group) (5 Active Points); Visible (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) plus +6 versus Range Modifier for Sight Group (9 Active Points); Visible (-1/4) (Real Cost: 7)
Notes: The use of his visual powers causes Legend's eyes to glow brightly.
16 I Have Within Me Blood of Kings: Life Support (Eating Character only has to eat once per week; Extended Breathing: 1 END per 20 Minutes; Longevity 200 Years; Safe in High Pressure; Safe in High Radiation; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum; Sleeping Character only has to sleep 8 hours per week)
5 The Power of Hope: Power Defense (5 points)
10 Legendary Will: +5 with Ego Roll
3 The Earth Is My Home: Bump Of Direction

Skills
3 Scholar
2 1) KS: Arcane And Occult Lore (3 Active Points) 13-
1 2) KS: Magic (2 Active Points) 11-
2 3) KS: The Mystic World (3 Active Points) 13-
2 4) KS: The Superhuman World (3 Active Points) 13-
3 Analyze: Magic 13-

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 209
Total Cost: 350

200+ Disadvantages
10 Distinctive Features: Mystical Aura, Divine Magic (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses)
15 Social Limitation: Public Identity Frequently (11-), Major
10 Reputation: Magical Metahuman Demon Fighter, 11-
15 Psychological Limitation: Protect the Weak Against the Evil Strong (Common, Strong)
15 Psychological Limitation: Speak The Truth and Act With Honor, Deception Is For Lesser Men (Very Common, Moderate)
15 Psychological Limitation: Turn Not Away From Evil, Nor From A Worthy Cause (Common, Strong)
25 Hunted: Demon 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Harshly Punish)
25 Hunted: The Crowns 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Harshly Punish)
20 Hunted: The Council 11- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)

Total Disadvantage Points: 350

Background/History: Gwen Westlake rocked, and wept, the infant cradled to her breast. Arthur spoke to her, desperate, angry, half-mad.

“Gwen, please, give me the baby.”

“He wants his mommy Arthur! He wants his mommy!” The pain in Gwen’s voice cut into her husband. He held out his arms, trying, gently, to take the body of his dead child from her.

Time seemed to stop.

In a place on no map drawn by human hand, a being out of legend looked down upon his half-mortal son. The child’s mother had not survived, and no child of mortal woman born could hope to thrive in this place. The being reached out, and found a single teardrop moment of time. He placed his son within the tear, and let him fall away.

Time rushed forward, and in Arthur’s arms the child opened wide sapphire eyes and began to wail.

Five years later, in Central Park, NY, an old Japanese man gently held the shoulders of a perfect young boy, and looked into strange sapphire eyes. The old man spoke to the boy’s father.

“Who told you of us?”

“We … we didn’t know what to do. Jack is a wonderful child, but we can’t control him! He’s so strong, and he can do things that no one should be able to do. I read about you, and I begged until I got a meeting with the Sentinels. They told me how to find you. Please, can you help?”

The old man smiled. “I will teach your son.”

Twenty years later, in an alleyway in Haven, Ohio, a woman screamed. The Demon-Bound smiled wide. It loved to hear them scream. It moved forward, treasuring the terror in the woman’s eyes. It was surprised when hands, iron hard, grabbed its bat-like wings, and more surprised when they were torn away. The Demon-Bound’s last sight was a pair of sapphire eyes and a flash of white-hot fire.

Two years ago a young mother sat with her daughter, smiling, as the news showed a glowing man fighting a monster. Her daughter could not take her eyes from the screen.

“Is that him? Is that the Legend?”

“Yes honey, yes it is.”

“Tell me again. Tell me how he saved you.”
Since his debut as a Hero, Legend has served as an agent of both The Circle and the Council, as well as seeking out and opposing Supernatural Evil on his own. Both Demon and The Crowns of Krym have become regular opponents.

Personality/Motivation: Jack Westlake is surprisingly cheerful, friendly, reverent, kind, and not nearly as mad as people might expect. His childhood was not easy, and his apprenticeship under The Master was often painful. Still, growing up within the Circle taught Jack more of the world of magic than most men would ever know, and gave him hints as to the truth behind his own powers. He lives by a heroic code that seems to be part of him at almost a genetic level. He does not lie, steal, break his freely given word, or turn his back on those in need. When not using his powers to fight mystical threats, he heals those he can at free clinics and in those emergency rooms where his help will be accepte. He earns a reasonable living from rewards for those criminals he is able to capture and from using his powers to perform contract services. Jack does not maintain a secret identity, as his almost compulsive honesty would make such a thing impossible. Rather than attempt to lie, Jack will simply remain silent when pressed on issues about which he does not wish to speak.

Quote: “It is time for you to make a choice.” “That was not the right choice.” “You’re welcome. I’m glad I could help.”

Powers/Tactics: The Magic of the Land of Legends burns in Jack Westlake’s body, and may be released for a wide variety of effects. He has mastered the secrets of Flight (both highly maneuverable air-walking and supersonic straight line bursts that can take him anywhere in the world in minutes), bolstering the power of his own body, healing himself and others, seeing that which others never see, releasing blasts of powerful Divine Magic, and assuming a near-indestructible ghost-like form. He has even demonstrated the ability to “blow out” the magic of others like a man blowing out a candle. Against most foes he will fight much like a standard brick, moving in and pounding away. He might attempt to use his Legendary Strength to quickly overwhelm an opponent, but will rarely be able to call on it more than once or twice in a single combat. If a powerful magical foe is occupied, he might spend a few phases attempting to dispel their most obvious powers. Jack is a Hero, but he lacks a code versus killing; he would never kill a foe whom he believed could be reformed or contained, but some forms of madness are too deep to heal.

Campaign Use: Superman, in a watered down form and with the serial numbers filed off. Legend is designed on 350 points to be used as a player character. Boosts to defenses and raw power would be one logical expnsion of the character, and his skill set could use extending as well. Jack is one of the natural leaders of the New Circle.

Appearance: Jack is a tall, athletically muscular man with sapphire eyes and light brown hair. He tends to dress casually outside of combat. As Legend, he often wears a streamlined blue uniform based on that of an early 20th century military officer.

Character by Robert Dorf, 2005

[Trebuchet]

I stand corrected. :o

[OddHat]

I stand corrected. :o

Sorry. There comes a point when you've designed a character for more or less everything. :)

[Metaphysician]

Depends on the super. Are you playing the X-Men or Teen Titans?? 350 is fine. Are you playing the JLA Big Seven or the top tier Avengers, 800-1000 is about right. In between, in between.

[zornwil]

I stand corrected. :o
OddHat is really a master builder. :)

As to the thread, I guess to be "Avengers-like" then it'd be 250-350 (I didn't see the actual question when filling out the poll, though, so answered it differently). But in general I prefer to start PCs at somewhere around a lower starting base and have XP advance fairly quickly, which to me reflects the way comic book characters seem to grow.

[OzMike]

I voted 350.

Because if I could simulate a comic book level character on 250pts, then I surely can on 350.

That said, some levels of power/concepts need more. Much more.

And some need less.

I haven't really said anything have I? :)

[Psylint]

Honestly, I think the active point limit is more important than the character points. That said, the regression toward the mean really shows through the higher your point totals get (defenses increase in value as it becomes harder and harder to reach the extreme end of attacks). Furthermore, you end up with all of your characters, regardless of concept being able to ignore guns, knives, anti-tank rockets or dying the first time they get hit by a super powered antagonist, unless you rigidly enforce active point limits, in which case, I have a hard to finding a reasonable place to put the extra 100-150 points.

[Killer Shrike]

It really is all relative. The game scales, so what really matters is what the baseline for your campaign is, and position characters above or below that baseline with more or less points as necessary to acheive the right feel. Whether that baseline is 200 or 2000 it can work so long as you are consistent.

However, if you are using the official CU characters as a measuring stick, I think most experienced Marvel characters need anywhere from 500 to 1250 points to model with some degree of accuracy, and experienced DC characters need from 750 to 1500+ (as they tend to be more powerful and archetypal -- most everyone is the BEST at whatever their shtick is).



For instance I did a version of Wolverine that came out to 1025 points, and represents a character that could pull off the kind of stunts Wolvy is capable of in the comics within the context of a standard Champions Universe campaign. However, I could have made the character less powerful and so long as it was scaled appropriately to whatever context he was used in, it would work out fine.

[David Blue]

I want to give two inconsistent answers at once.

350 is good. It's sorta Teen Titans level if you don't count the tough ones.
700 points. If you can't take a tank, you're not Super.

When the point totals go too high, the game starts to change, and ideas like a variable power pool become too dominant. For a lot of characters I've liked, 350pts really is fine for them at the start of their careers.

And yet: If you can't take a tank, you're not Super.

That's it. Exactly.

[Trebuchet]

And yet: If you can't take a tank, you're not Super.

That's it. Exactly.Kindly define "take" and "tank."

Few supers even in the comics can punch through the armor of even a WW2 tank, nevermind a state-of-the-art one like an M1A2 Abrams or the fictional sorts we see in comics.

So does "take" mean simply immobilizing the vehicle? Incapacitating the crew? Disabling its weapons? Crushing it into a ball of armored metal with red goo as crew? What do you actually have to be able to do in order to qualify as a superhero under this definition?

[David Blue]

Kindly define "take" and "tank."

Few supers even in the comics can punch through the armor of even a WW2 tank, nevermind a state-of-the-art one like an M1A2 Abrams or the fictional sorts we see in comics.

So does "take" mean simply immobilizing the vehicle? Incapacitating the crew? Disabling its weapons? Crushing it into a ball of armored metal with red goo as crew? What do you actually have to be able to do in order to qualify as a superhero under this definition?Sorry, no. I think the tank issue has been debated to death before.

[Teflon Billy]

Kindly define "take" and "tank."

Few supers even in the comics can punch through the armor of even a WW2 tank, nevermind a state-of-the-art one like an M1A2 Abrams or the fictional sorts we see in comics.

So does "take" mean simply immobilizing the vehicle? Incapacitating the crew? Disabling its weapons? Crushing it into a ball of armored metal with red goo as crew? What do you actually have to be able to do in order to qualify as a superhero under this definition?I'm thinking a mobility kill here at least.

TB

[Susano]

Based on my experiences with trying to convert various characters to HERO... the point totals are all over the map. So I picked option number 1.

However, I do find the bulk of my conversion falling into the 350-400 point range, at least for semi-experienced supers. There is also the question of power level and how much do you want the super to be able to do. My Conan, Usagi Yojimbo, and John Carter conversions are all 500+ point fantasy characters, mainly because they do so much over the course of their careers. Supers can be the same way -- Batman is easily 1000 points -- if you give him all the bases, vehicles, Contacts, Skills, Talents, and gadgets he's been seen to carry. Superman is even worse, Silver Age planet-moving Supes is what? 2,000-3,000 points? The X-Men as originally written were probably 250 points, if that, now? 400-600 points of base, vehicle, combat training, Mental Defense, tactics, and Skill Levels. So it all depends on what you need from your campaign, and what sort of characters you're looking for. We used to play at 250-275, and thought 275 was a lot of points. These days I've had trouble reaching 350 points for some characters and really have been at a loss on how to trim others down to 350.... However, I do think 350 is a very flexible value, as it allows for a decent power level, skills, characteristics, and so on, without being too limited, or causing too much trouble to create disads for.

[Trebuchet]

I'm thinking a mobility kill here at least.Me too. By that definition, almost any healthy person (assuming they don't get shot with the tank's weapons) can "take out" a tank. A crowbar in the tracks or plugging the engine air intake should work. Should be a piece of cake for anyone with superpowers of almost any sort.

Of course, if you can actually punch through the armor or flip it over like a turtle that's so much cooler. :D

[OddHat]

Me too. By that definition, almost any healthy person (assuming they don't get shot with the tank's weapons) can "take out" a tank. A crowbar in the tracks or plugging the engine air intake should work. Should be a piece of cake for anyone with superpowers of almost any sort.

Of course, if you can actually punch through the armor or flip it over like a turtle that's so much cooler. :D

You can build 350 point characters who can flip tanks no problem, or even punch through them; the 350 point version of Legend that Enforcer84 played at GenCon this year in my New Circle game would have no trouble smashing a tank, as long as he avoided getting hit first. You can build 350 point characters who can take an 8d6KA from a tank gun without (on average) being stunned. The question of whether or not a given GM would let such a character in his campaign is a separate one.

All of that said, I have no problem with 500+ point campaigns. For some types of story, they work fine.

As Susano has pointed out, many Fantasy characters work best on 500+ points.

[name_tamer]

Blah blah blah varies... blah blah blah good for some, not for others... blah blah blah fishnets and pie

blah.

Stolen. I voted 700. I guess it's just my inner munchkin.

[dmcfarland]

I would say 450 points total. 350 points isnt enough, considering most enemies can pound you into dust because they have higher point totals. I've played with GM's that did and it wasn't fun because it was a no win situation.

[Rapier]

There is no good number. It depends on so many factors. Teen Champions are superheroes and don't have as many points. Are you playing superheroes that can battle it out on the planetary scale? Are you playing superheroes that can only handle a small group of mooks?

It's too complicated a question to have a single answer.

However, if you are asking where should a new Champions character in a stand-up regular Champions game be on starting points? 350. 350 is enough that you can have a well rounded character that is effective in combat, yet still has enough left to actually have the background skills that are appropriate. That was the main problem I had with 4th was that 250 points was not enough to do both. I don't have that problem anymore and quite like the 350 point start.

[OzMike]

I would say 450 points total. 350 points isnt enough, considering most enemies can pound you into dust because they have higher point totals. I've played with GM's that did and it wasn't fun because it was a no win situation.

But the GM always has access to more points that you. So it really does come down to in game balance.

I played in an interesting game once where we had 350 pts to spend on stats and powers and such, but skills were free. Admittedly the GM made us explain why for every skill we had. It sort of worked.

[Matt Frisbee]

In general, I don't run comic book level characters. I set a starting level and limits on key abilities and power levels so I can create a reasonably balanced game. In comics, you've got characters all over the board -- from Howard the Duck to Dr. Fate -- and they generally find opponents who give them a good fight or challenge them in other ways. I am a firm believer in the heroes being only as good as their nemeses are bad, and build the rogues' gallery accordingly. Plus, who's the final judge of whether a character is "comic book level"? What kind of comic -- are we talking Superman, Defenders of the Galaxy, Justice League, X-Men, Power Pack or Mystery Men?

Matt "Splitting-hairs-again" Frisbee

[Susano]

I think I'll go the Cerebus the Aardvark route. "All of them."

[OddHat]

I would say 450 points total. 350 points isnt enough, considering most enemies can pound you into dust because they have higher point totals. I've played with GM's that did and it wasn't fun because it was a no win situation.

The GM sounds like a pill, but that's not really a problem with how many points the Heroes are built on. The GM can throw as many points as he likes into his villains, and with his complete control over the when, where and how of combat can always wipe out the player characters if that's his idea of a good game. Low point totals can feel powerful as heck when the GM is building and playing the bad guys with that in mind.

[Hugh Neilson]

I would say 450 points total. 350 points isnt enough, considering most enemies can pound you into dust because they have higher point totals. I've played with GM's that did and it wasn't fun because it was a no win situation.

As noted by others, that's a GM issue, not a points issue. The GM can give you 3,500 points and build the oppostion on 4,500 and you'll get the same result.

[dmcfarland]

Thank you everyone for your input. The GM was a pill................a major pill in the rear. He was also a bear to GM, because he would try to milk every loophole he could, and didn't want to create a well balanced character. He was one of those that gave a character 75 str and only have a 3 int, but play the character like he had normal intelligence. I guess he derived his self esteem from being better than everyone else. He didn't like champions, because the hero eliminates many loopholes-much to my chargrin and played MSH. He was one of the reasons why I stopped playing.

I also believe let the nemesis equal the power level of the characters. 350 Pts are a good point basis for 5-6 characters because they can defeat a mechanon level character or other formindible characters by working together. I would give a group of 3-4 characters 450 pts so they can balance out.

Again the people who replied are right; it depends on the campaign or the genre. I don't like to trip the players up by placing insumountable obstacles in the path, but challenging them and making it fun for all involded what ever the genre is.

[Kenn]

In my Champions of Justice game, the CoJ are the buck-stops-here top of the line team (a la the JLA or Avengers) for the RCU. There are other teams out there, and their build levels vary (especially as most of them are 4e NPCs now) but the one new team was built on basic 350 points. For converting the CoJ to 5e, between the rule changes and a desire to get away from the munchkiny power constructs, etc. I took the approach that the characters can be built with 200, 250, 300, 350, or 400 base points, plus 100-150 pts. in disads (and I recommend aiming for 120.) Whatever they choose I kick up another 50 pts. to make the accounting balance for things like team communicators and paying for vehicles and such.

And I tell players, if you're playing someone who's supposed to be a powerhouse, build towards the high end. If you're not, don't. But the big thing is build to where it feels right. Build to fit your vision of the character and where they fit in the scheme of things. If a character ends up with more than 50 points unspent, drop a base point level. If it's more than 60 or 70, drop a level, and maybe ditching a disadvantage.

And I've had people build at both ends, and in the middle. And it creates a good comic-book like feel, having so much variety. There are characters at 400, 500, 600, 700 points. But I've been fortunate that I don't have players who feel like they have to compete against one another.

[dmcfarland]

Ken

That makes sense to me. I created a character on 200 + 170 disads and it came out very good. I am even suprised. I think its up to consensus of players and the GM to determind what point levels and genre. I had one person I played with that always tried to kill or, cause my character to be killed through inaction or just just threw me to the wolves. I don't want to play with people like that if I ever get to play again.

[wrestlinggeek]

[quote=Trebuchet;1138972]Kindly define "take" and "tank."

Have you seen the Hulk movie? That's "taking" a tank. Well, three, actually. As for myself, I voted the "too many variables" and "pie" options (I love pie).

[OddHat]

Kindly define "take" and "tank."




Have you seen the Hulk movie? That's "taking" a tank. Well, three, actually. As for myself, I voted the "too many variables" and "pie" options (I love pie).

In the game I ran at GenCon this year, Four members of my villain team the Five could have taken out a tank in that sort of splashy, spectacular way, and the Fith could have slipped into the tank and killed the crew. All were 350 point characters.

Of the Hero team the 2006 New Circle, also 350 point characters, off the top of my head I'd say four of them (out of nine) could have similarly taken out a tank by flipping it over, blowing it up, or smashing through the sides. Most of the others would have had to work harder.

These days, I'd say that some 350 point characters can take a tank.

All of that said, I'd still use 500+ points to simulate most moderately experienced higher powered superheroes. It's not the height of the power so much as the breadth and ease of use of the powers, perks, and skills that sucks up points.

[Susano]

In the game I ran at GenCon this year, Four members of my villain team the Five could have taken out a tank in that sort of splashy, spectacular way, and the Fith could have slipped into the tank and killed the crew. All were 350 point characters.

Of the Hero team the 2006 New Circle, also 350 point characters, off the top of my head I'd say four of them (out of nine) could have similarly taken out a tank by flipping it over, blowing it up, or smashing through the sides. Most of the others would have had to work harder.

The claim that 350 point characters can't "take a tank", and the follow up claim that those that can are unplayable, is not very convincing to me.

All of that said, I'd still use 500+ points to simulate most moderately experienced higher powered superheroes. It's not the height of the power so much as the breadth and ease of use of the powers, perks, and skills that sucks up points.

The Tiger of Shaolin was doing 21d6 strikes, IIRC, so yes, tank-smashing was possible for him.

And I agree with the 500+ points for experienced supers and other major literary characters. They often have a wealth of Contacts, Perks, Talents, Skills, and so on.

[austenandrews]

Do guys like Daredevil regularly take out tanks in today's comics? Man, things have changed.

[OddHat]

The Tiger of Shaolin was doing 21d6 strikes, IIRC, so yes, tank-smashing was possible for him.

And I agree with the 500+ points for experienced supers and other major literary characters. They often have a wealth of Contacts, Perks, Talents, Skills, and so on.

I should post the 2006 convention builds. If nothing else, it would be a chance to think over how my design ideas have changed since last year.

[wrestlinggeek]

Here's an idea, not that I'm sure I'd ever use it...:

The GM figures out how many starting points the team is gonna have, then sees how many players he's gonna get. So, the more players, the fewer starting points they each get, and vice-versa. So if the group has 1000 base points (before disads), and 4 players, they each get 250 base points. 5 players, each get 200 base points. 2 players, 500 base points each. What do y'all think?

[zornwil]

Here's an idea, not that I'm sure I'd ever use it...:

The GM figures out how many starting points the team is gonna have, then sees how many players he's gonna get. So, the more players, the fewer starting points they each get, and vice-versa. So if the group has 1000 base points (before disads), and 4 players, they each get 250 base points. 5 players, each get 200 base points. 2 players, 500 base points each. What do y'all think?
That's really interesting. It would certainly enforce some interesting interplay between players in regard to their characters. I have no good idea how it would really work out, but I like the notion at least as an idea in general.

(PS - would have repped you but can't yet due to the 24 hour period thing)

[austenandrews]

Here's an idea, not that I'm sure I'd ever use it...:

The GM figures out how many starting points the team is gonna have, then sees how many players he's gonna get. So, the more players, the fewer starting points they each get, and vice-versa. So if the group has 1000 base points (before disads), and 4 players, they each get 250 base points. 5 players, each get 200 base points. 2 players, 500 base points each. What do y'all think?
It would stop people inviting fickle players who drop a game after two or three weeks. :)