FH weapon damage

[atlascott]

So I had the guys over to make FH characters.

I have some house rules. First, for the Primaries, 11-15 values are at the stated cost; 16-20 are at 2x the cost; 21-25 are 3x the cost, and 26-30 are 4x the stated cost, etc.

Second, package deals which launch scores beyond 15 DO NOT suffer from the double, triple, etc, costs. Purchased atttributes outside a PD do. (Incentive to use PD's).

Third, players can pay the amount of character points necessary to buy ONE attribute to 15, and they then get the right to roll a d10, and take the result of the roll, THEN add the PD's, and THEN buy whatever else they want. So, you can either roll a high number are really save some points, but you are also risking points, cuz you might roll a 2, having paid 5 pts for a 15 STR but ending up with a 12 (but you had a chance for a 20 STR for 5 pts, when it otherwise would have cost you much more).

So 2 of my players (in a 125 pt game) have 25 STR, and they were bummed about the 'no more than double base damage of a weapon" rule especially in light of some of their perks and skills which add a d6 of damage under certain circumstances.

A 2d6K weapon can not be made to do more than 4d6K damage, period, no matter how you try to do it. The STR min is low enough on the weapons that these guys were using that they were maxing out the damage before they used any of the nifty extra special moves. Now they want to but 3 1/2 d6K swords and axes.

I can see their point. Why CANT you just buy a bigger axe, with a 20 STR minimum, which does more damage? Even if you have to have it custom made, doesnt it make sense? What's the point of having tremendous strength if you have maxed out your longsword? They are closing in on doing more damage classes with their bare handws than with a killing attack weapon.

My concern is game balance. 6 or 7 dice of killing damage is a heck of alot of damage. I know, I can just say 'no' because it unbalances the game. But lets take a step back, here. They did not reall munchkin their way into 25 str characters. Don't ogres have 30 str? Do Ogres use teeny tiny (for them) swords and axes? Do giants? SHouldnt the players get to use their giant weapons if they want?

Now, I already have some things in mind. First, if they buy weapons that max their minimum STR, the a weak STR drain makes them useless. ALso, such large weapons probably have at leasy a -3 OCV to hit in smaller spaces, like dungeons or anywhere indoors. There are definitely consequences for this approach.

So what do you think? Bar them? Allow it? Is there something Im missing?

Input greatly appreciated.

[ghost-angel]

the joys of crossposting.. from my answer above:

I would have stuck to the standard method of purchasing stats myself, you probably wouldn't have seen 25STR, with or without Package Deals, since it would cost 20pts just to get there.

I personally think that was your first, and only, mistake here.

Beyond that - what the heck are you fighting that they need 6-7 dice of Killing for?!?!

[Manic Typist]

Allow it, with all reasonable OCV and encumberance penalties, and don't forget the OCV penalties just for swinging these things NORMALLY. After all, their weight distribution and interation with the air will be completely different from what these guys are used to. They will burn their next couple XP dealing with that, and buy you some breathing room.

Then? Start throwing TONS of mooks at them, and let them have fun cutting things in half like the mighty warriors that they are....... and after a little, start toughening (sp?) the resistance up with more and more bigger and nastier creatures as the enemy brings in specialized reinforcements.

Maybe the Big Bad hires a company of ogres, JUST to deal with these guys? Start introducing them in escalating numbers as the battles get closer and closer to the final boss...

[Blue Jogger]

Something missing, yes.

They don't get to count the STR below the STR minimum. So for a Great Axe, you only count STR above 16.

[atlascott]

Something missing, yes.

They don't get to count the STR below the STR minimum. So for a Great Axe, you only count STR above 16.

You have a good point.

If a great axe has a 2d6+1 with a 16 STR Min, they cant double the damage, normally. But, each has a combat maneuver which allows them to do +15 STR, only for damage with a particular weapon, and then, an additional manuever (deadly blow) which adds a d6K. Those stacked DO more than double the base damage of a weapon, and is a no-no per the rules. On the other hand, I am going to have to look into whether you can use both of those together or not. They really have about identical game effect...maybe no giant weapons after all...

[Thia Halmades]

You've lost me slightly here. I grep that your PCs have purchased crazy STR scores and want weapons which support those STR scores. This is slightly out of genre - can they do anything else other than kill things? Or are you running a D&Desque Monty-Hall/Monster Bash? That's an important question, because it governs where points need to go. That aside.

Yes, you've run into the doubling rule, which works in your favor as a DM because it gives you a clearer idea of how much damage people will be doing on a regular basis - or simply, what their Standard Effect Roll is going to look like on damage. I would start off with suggesting you not let the PCs swing Giant Weapons, especially if they're built on 125 points.

My PCs are currently built on 300, and they're reconstructing themselves from their D&D counterpart builds. They have magick, a few magick items, and Ancestral Relics which they've imbued with significant power. And they're still begging for more points - so for the players already saying they want more damage at 125 seems odd, as my PCs are struggling just to make their concepts, much less worry about maxing out their damage.

Second note. Let's say you have a PC with a 25 STR. Simple enough. And he's wielding a Great Sword/Zweihander with a STR Minima of 17. That weapon deals 2d6 damage. His STR bonus only puts it up to 2d6+1 (25 - 17 = 8, which is one Damage Class with a 3 point remainder). Good, so he has a 2d6+1 weapon.

If you allow them to build skills/talents, or take CSLs that add to the DC (3 points minimum, I believe) than they would still need five 3 point CSLs, OR, they would need to purchase 5 point CSLs within a group (i.e., "Skilled Combatant," +5 Combat Skill Levels (25), Only with Selected Weapon (-1), 13 Real Points). That's an approximation, you can debate all the various ways to do it, use OIF as the Cleave ability does, and so on.

However, you've now consumed... probably close to 100 points of the character, just on stats and that ability alone. In answer to your question, the one power that supercedes the doubling rule is Deadly Blow (check FH for local times & channels). Specifically, when used, DB adds to the base damage of the weapon, which alters its doubling capacity.

For example.

Your Paladin is going toe-to-toe with the Lord of Flies, Bealzebub. He's ugly. And smells like an alley. And most importantly, he's evil. You wind up your Smite Evil, which you have at 4d6. That 4d6 stacks with the 2d6 of your Greatsword (and that's assuming a normal, boring, unenchanted Greatsword). Your base damage is now 6d6. Any skills & abilities which raise your base damage would max at 12d6.

Most people would consider this a bad thing. :D For most Fantasy games this is overpowered (although, arguably, he is the Lord of the Flies, he's still only got so much BODY and STUN, just lots of PD, ED, Resistant Defenses & Damage Reduction). If you want the local Goblin Horde to pose a threat to your starting characters, than you'll need to reign in their power levels.

I always err on the side of caution; it means people aren't swinging for the fences in my game, and they stay on their toes. There are PLENTY of situations wherein they've simply torn through groups of mooks; and there are still plenty of situations when they sit on their haunches and wait for a more opportune moment to strike. It's your game, I'm just trying to give you a combination of clarification/advice based on your dilemma.

[Edit: While I'm thinking about, you can also add DCs via Martial Arts. UMA is available in the online store, and it's a must-have for any campaign ~DEM]

Hope some/any/all of that helps.

[ghost-angel]

You have a good point.

If a great axe has a 2d6+1 with a 16 STR Min, they cant double the damage, normally. But, each has a combat maneuver which allows them to do +15 STR, only for damage with a particular weapon, and then, an additional manuever (deadly blow) which adds a d6K. Those stacked DO more than double the base damage of a weapon, and is a no-no per the rules. On the other hand, I am going to have to look into whether you can use both of those together or not. They really have about identical game effect...maybe no giant weapons after all...
I just saw this...

you can't stack Combat Maneuvers. You can perform one maneuver at a time.

[Steve Long]

you can't stack Combat Maneuvers. You can perform one maneuver at a time

That's correct, but I think he's referring to the Deadly Blow Talent, which isn't a Combat Maneuver. He was just offhandedly describing it as a "maneuver" (little m).

atlasscott, have you looked at the rules on FH 177 about "equal damage" -- basically genericizing the weapons around specified levels of damage, with more damage requiring a higher STR Min? If you link that to some series of CV penalties, maybe you could find a way to balance things out to resolve some of your difficulties. Not sure if it'd help at all, but figured it couldn't hurt to suggest it.

[atlascott]

In answer to your question, the one power that supercedes the doubling rule is Deadly Blow (check FH for local times & channels). Specifically, when used, DB adds to the base damage of the weapon, which alters its doubling capacity...

...I always err on the side of caution; it means people aren't swinging for the fences in my game, and they stay on their toes. There are PLENTY of situations wherein they've simply torn through groups of mooks; and there are still plenty of situations when they sit on their haunches and wait for a more opportune moment to strike. It's your game, I'm just trying to give you a combination of clarification/advice based on your dilemma...

...Hope some/any/all of that helps.


It DOES help. Thanks alot!

I am going to have to go back and examine this 'base damage' issue. It completely eliminates the giant weapon issue. Of course, I could offer the giant weapon option, but just load it down with so many obvious negatives that they'd be unlikely to want it.

THe guy does this in every game we play---"Hmmm, how can I build the biggest combat monster possible" I guess thats his character coneption--the most efficient murderer possible.

In one recent D&D game, he decided to venture off with his BIG SWORD (tm) alone, and was cut to ribbons by himself. His body was not recoverable. He made a new character, Zed II. BUT, he played more carefully from then on.

I still think that char caps would prevent having to after-the-fact police gamers like this. If a limit is in the rules, in black and white, they can accept it. If it isnt, anbd you disallow something, they think you are cheating or penalizing their ingenuity...my mistake, but like I said, there is ALOT of work and thought that goes into running FH than for a GM in any other type game. Flexibility means increased need for abuse and imbalance-creating strategies.

[atlascott]

That's correct, but I think he's referring to the Deadly Blow Talent, which isn't a Combat Maneuver. He was just offhandedly describing it as a "maneuver" (little m).

atlasscott, have you looked at the rules on FH 177 about "equal damage" -- basically genericizing the weapons around specified levels of damage, with more damage requiring a higher STR Min? If you link that to some series of CV penalties, maybe you could find a way to balance things out to resolve some of your difficulties. Not sure if it'd help at all, but figured it couldn't hurt to suggest it.

Steve:

Right, and right. I WASNT referring to CM, just cm.

I have already decided that anything like a 2 1/2d6 K weapon is going to require about a STR of 21 to wield, and if I allow something up to 3d6, then its going to be in the STR min 25 to 28 range. I think that, in all fairness, wielding a weapon of the size by a human sized hero would require a substantial negative to OCCV and to a lesser extent, DCV. AS an exercise, swing a 3 foot long club in a hallway. Then, try swinging a 9 foot long pole in the same hallway. If made of light wood, there is very effective difference in weight, but it is harder to balance, harder to swing, everthing. Its also harder to react with, thus the negative to the DCV.

I have pretty much decided to standardize the weapon damage per your suggestion, Steve--for example, a Great Axe and Great Sword will both do 2d6+1 damage. Alot of guys like swords. No good game reason why they shouldn't do as much damage as the axe-wielders.

And BTW, I really appreciate 5th Edition, your hard work, and the wealth of HERO products out there. I am one of the occasional grousers, but I hope you never take it to mean that I do not appreciate your talents and contributions, which have lead to my ability to ever start this campaign, grapple with these issues, and enjoy the game.

Obviously, I still have some hard thinking do to, and some more rules clarifying/reading before I make any final decisions about how to make it work.

[On an unrelated note, one of the guys in our group has decided to unload all his D&D 3.0/3.5--he doesnt want to paly it anymore...HAH!]

[atlascott]

Here's another rule I am thinking about.

1d6 to 1 1/2d6 K weapons can be operated in any space.

1 1/2+1 thru 2d6-1 weapons can be operated without penalty as long as the character has no space limitations to his left and right of about 3' (he needs swinging room)--if he is shoulder to shoulder or has less space, there are gonna be some ocv and possibly DCV penalties.

Anthing at or above 2d6 requires maybe 5 feet on either side, or you get penalties, and it cannot be used in a space where there is less than 3 feet on either side of the character (literally, you dont have any swinging room)

This rewards my rapier-weilding rogues and longsword-toting fighter.

The more I think about this, I like it more and more. Steve, do you have a reference in FH to this? (I won the paper book and the pdf--I can do a search when I get home--I am SUPPOSED to be getting ready for a trial...damn hobbies!)

[Thia Halmades]

Using 5th Ed & FH as your base, you can do dern near anything. One of the best things Steve did in FH was to give a massive range of design considerations for which genre of fantasy you intend to play in. Sword & Sorcery? High Power Epic? He covered it all, so really, the book is indispensible.

You can also make each weapon different. A Greatsword may be better at blocking blows than a Great Axe. The axe may have some other special consideration that makes it cool (such as Penetrating or somesuch) beyond simply being another physical incarnation of the same weapon. Because you're really building a 'thing' in terms of HERO mechanics, you can make it personal, you can make it fit your setting more cleanly.

If you peruse dude's 3.5 PHB for a bit, you'll see that the designers did the same thing. They made sure each weapon had, in one way or another, something that individualized it, and made better weapons more expensive (costing a Feat to wield). You can model this with your eyes shut in HERO.

It should satisfy the folks looking for the "new cool" and should appease your power gamers.

[ghost-angel]

That's correct, but I think he's referring to the Deadly Blow Talent, which isn't a Combat Maneuver. He was just offhandedly describing it as a "maneuver" (little m).
Ah well. There is that then. Thanks for the clarification. (I so need a copy of Fantasy Hero)

[Thia Halmades]

1 1/2+1 thru 2d6-1 weapons can be operated without penalty as long as the character has no space limitations to his left and right of about 3' (he needs swinging room)--if he is shoulder to shoulder or has less space, there are gonna be some ocv and possibly DCV penalties.

Anthing at or above 2d6 requires maybe 5 feet on either side, or you get penalties, and it cannot be used in a space where there is less than 3 feet on either side of the character (literally, you dont have any swinging room)


Sorry to harp, but see my post - you could conceivably build a 2d6 short weapon, such as a Falchion, Scimitar or ... the Italian five-finger thingy which could deal plenty of damage in close-quarters and have zippy in the range category.

Conversely you can build a Spear with Reach that only does 1d6 killing. I suppose I'm not so much saying not to use the rule, as much as I'm saying you may be more rewarded by expanding your options into all the possibilities. Weapon design really only stops at your imagination.

[atlascott]

Sorry to harp, but see my post - you could conceivably build a 2d6 short weapon, such as a Falchion, Scimitar or ... the Italian five-finger thingy which could deal plenty of damage in close-quarters and have zippy in the range category.

Conversely you can build a Spear with Reach that only does 1d6 killing. I suppose I'm not so much saying not to use the rule, as much as I'm saying you may be more rewarded by expanding your options into all the possibilities. Weapon design really only stops at your imagination.

I would implementing the rule to stop blatant powergaming or "I buy whatever does the most damage" mentality that I am running into. So yes, customizing weapons is great, and I understand that it can be done. But when the only consideration is "how much damage does it do?" I gotta do something to put the brakes on. BUT, I DO like the idea of requiring a Perk or Talent to weild a great-than-human-sized weapon...

[Thia Halmades]

So yes, customizing weapons is great, and I understand that it can be done. But when the only consideration is "how much damage does it do?" I gotta do something to put the brakes on.

I recognize the problem, we're just coming at it from two separate angles. You want your player to cease & desist the bigger badder weapon problem. I'm suggesting you rebuild / design weapons with draws, options and tactical advantages beyond simply dealing damage.

Perhaps you can get through the idea of 'character concept' other than "Brick the Barbarian." I've had players like this and they are impossibly hard to deal with. You have my sympathies.

[Diamond Spear]

Archers, my friend. Introduce them to the pain that happens when you bring a Big Frickin' Sword to a Bow fight.

If that isn't enough, or if you are an evil, sadistic GM, design an adventure where their strength doesn't help them. Perhaps the local noble want to reward them for their deeds of valor and of course he just assumes they know proper social etiquette. Add in some scheming from all the rival nobility that are also at the party and they should realize that they might want to think about spending points in something other than combat-related skills.

And if they turn out to only be interested in combat, combat, combat, then they will eventually learn the truth of the old saying that those of live by the Big Frickin' Sword will die by the Big Frickin' Sword.

[Steve Long]

And BTW, I really appreciate 5th Edition, your hard work, and the wealth of HERO products out there. I am one of the occasional grousers, but I hope you never take it to mean that I do not appreciate your talents and contributions, which have lead to my ability to ever start this campaign, grapple with these issues, and enjoy the game.

Thanx! And no worries -- grousing's what the Internet's about, after all. That, and pornography I suppose. :eek:

Better polite grousing than the chirping of the crickets. ;)

Good luck with the game! You've obviously put a lot of thought into it. Let us know how it goes.

[Steve Long]

But when the only consideration is "how much damage does it do?" I gotta do something to put the brakes on.

"True dat," as the kids these days would say. ;) Have you tried something like, say, the weapons quality rules on FH 182-84 to "tweak" the weapons and make them interesting for something other than raw damage capacity? I've had a lot of luck curtailing the "all I care about is the damage" routine by giving weapons what I call "coolness factors" that makes them fun to have even if they're not the absolute best tactical option.

[tgrandjean]

Heh.
Just a quick point out that shields are a VERY nice thing indeed.
+2 DCV is not anything to sneeze at even without combat manuevers.
2 Handed and reach weapons are nice, but a nice sword and board are very nice indeed.

[SteelDoom]

I recently started a FH game. My players range from munchkins to power gamers so I had to be quite strict with character developement. I wanted to make sure they had a lot of skills and decided to do this by limitting their stats. I didn't let any of them get higher than a 17 on character creation and I limitted SPD to three for fighters and two for caster types (house rule: fractional SPD can be bought down). The 17 is one short of the optimal 18 number which is why I chose it. Amazingly, putting strict limits like this worked quite well as there were very few grumbles. I also limitted CSL's and normal skill levels. The net result are characters that are much better developed than normal with a lot more skills and I think (hope) this will make the game easier for me to run for the long haul.

If you have a player that still wants to just dish out mega damage (I have one of these) then martial arts might be the way to go. Damage Classes from these aren't limitted by the base damage of the weapon and also don't use END.

Good luck to all of us Hero GM's! :)

[Steve Long]

My players range from munchkins to power gamers

Wow, the entire spectrum! ;)

[Manic Typist]

And if they turn out to only be interested in combat, combat, combat, then they will eventually learn the truth of the old saying that those of live by the Big Frickin' Sword will die by the Big Frickin' Sword.

Or by the poision in their soup...

[Diamond Spear]

Or by the poision in their soup...

There is that. Of course it's a lot more fun to put them up against archers with find weakness. :)

[Outsider]

The one time I tried poison in the soup, it was against a character who had spent actual skill points to become a dining connoisseur. So I gave him a skill roll to detect an 'off' taste in the dish... which he made.

[Thia Halmades]

Find Weakness and Indirect, in case he tries to get clever and take cover.

I was considering tweaking shields myself - +2 DCV is nice, do they also give a block bonus? Cause they should. Must check da bewk.

[Outsider]

If you're actively blocking, yes, they give an "ocv" bonus equal to their DCV bonus. IIRC.

[ghost-angel]

Aw shoot.. the way these characters a built a single High DEX Fighter with Martial Maneuvers could probably take 'em both.

I posted some more thoughts on this up in the Hero Discussion Forum thread.

Basically it sounds like these two guys took the DnD Mentality of Fighter = STR and haven't really understood that in Hero you need DEX as much, if not more, in a Fighter type to be effective in combat.

I think it will be easy to get them to turn from their Damage Dealing Ways to a more amicable scenario of balance in the character.

[Manic Typist]

Ok, here's a suggestion.

If you REALLY want to show them the error of their combat only ways, but NOT utterly ruin/kill them (but embarass them to no end!), then you might do this.

Have them try to be guarding some person or item in a "social" setting. I.E. A local merchant asks them to bodyguard their daughter while she is out with a less than reptuable person, but to do it subtley. If she finds out, daddy (and therefore the characters) will catch no end of hell.

Or, the characters are waiting in the common room of an inn, for some less than reputable character to show up so they can grab him.

In either case: someone slips a strong laxative into their drinks/soup.

After that, I think they might realize that there's more to winning, both a fight AND a scenario, than just "breaking stuff to look tough."

[Old Man]

Or, you could always do to your players what I liked to do to combat-monster Champions players--set them against a non-combat challenge, like a tsunami or runaway train.

[Thia Halmades]

Or. Both players sit there, recognize a problem that cannot be solved with direct physical violence, and pout. We can create scenarios all day long wherein force isn't going to win. "Okay team, you need to insert quietly into this remote village. Spread the word that you're looking for black-market enchanted swords - low end, but in bulk. Expect to be under close scrutiny and at the wrong end of a wand the entire time. Be smart, don't start fights you can't win. Your objective is to meet and gain intelligence on THIS man... (insert illusion here)...." and so on.

Great. When do we kill ****?

I'm not saying any of our suggestions are bad, just that I've encountered who have thier opinions and don't want them clouded by the truth.

[Markdoc]

A simple way to handle this si simply to explain to your munchkins, er, players, that:
a) yes, bigger weapons do more damage and yes, they can - at appropriate cost - get bigger weapons made with higher base damage.

and

b) that simply because of the mass involved, bigger weapons tend to be a bit clumsier.

A giant can use a two handed sword like a longsword because of his size. Of course he can't crank out the same damage as he could with a giant-size two handed sword, but it's handier for him. OTOH, a hobbit with a STR spell active might be able to swing that same 2 handed sword just as hard as the giant but simply because of its size, it's going to be pretty unwieldly.

Then, simply add a -2 OCV for every DC above the normal for a weapon of that size. Of course if they want to build a 3d6 "Buster" sword, they can, but they won't hit Dick (or Jane) with it most of the time.

cheers, Mark

[AmadanNaBriona]

Heck, just let them use Giant sized weapons scaled up using the rules from FH, page 153. It's not like the system doesn't have options for the situation... it is, however, true that using the scaling up rules renders said weapons pretty useless.

They might not even realize right off the bat that they're being punked.