Held Action Rephrased

[KarinsDad]

Sorry, though I was still in the other forum.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

By ignoring page 235. It seems to be a crummy rule. How about "If he uses his Held Action during a Segment in which he would have had a Phase, that Phase is lost because he can only have one Phase at a time."
On the other hand, someone argued on the Cybergames boards that it shouldn't be done that way because if Character A has a higher DEX than Character B, Character A should have a chance to prevent B from using his held action by timing his move just right. E.G. if B is Holding until A closes, intending to Martial Throw A, A should be able to attack at the top of the Segment that B has his next Phase with impunity. I don't know if I agree with that, but that was the argument.

[KarinsDad]

Here is Steve’s final response from the question forum:


Originally posted by Steve Long

The character keeps Holding his Action, again and again, until someone walks through the door. If they happen to walk through the door in the split-seconds in which he can't act, that's his tough luck.


The problem with this is that it encourages metagaming.

The SPD 6 slightly higher DEX villain (or misunderstood hero) is in the warehouse.

SWAT is outside, all with SPD 3 or SPD 4 and prepare to fire.

The villain thinks: "If I fly out the door on segment 10, then 50 SWAT guys will get a shot on me. One or more of them is bound to hit. But, if I fly out on segment 12, then none of them gets an attack."

Can anyone here think of a single reason why the rule should be like this? What purpose does it serve? What scenario does it handle?


Here is the rest of the message for those who missed them:


Originally posted by KarinsDad

Actually, there was a legitimate game mechanic question there ("how does this work?"). Let me rephrase the question.

Page 235

"he loses any Held Action when the next Segment in which he has a Phase begins, because he can only have one Phase at a time."


With the rule above in mind, how does a character do the following fairly standard and common action using the game mechanics?

"I want to shoot the first guy who comes through that doorway, even if I have to wait one second or ten seconds for that to occur?"



Originally posted by KarinsDad

If a character #1 with a speed of 6 is holding an action on segment 4 to shoot the first character that comes through a doorway, then:

1) If character #2 comes through the doorway on segment #5, then he gets to shoot him (with a possible DEX rolloff depending on GM).

2) If character #2 comes through the doorway after character #1s DEX on segment #6, then he gets to redeclare his held action on his initiative and shoot him (with a possible DEX rolloff depending on GM).

3) If character #2 comes through the doorway BEFORE character #1s DEX on segment #6, then he does not get to shoot him since his held action reset at the beginning of segment #6 and he cannot abort to an attack.

So, how does this work? I checked the errata, but could not find a reference.

Shouldn't it just be that held actions do not reset with the caveat that a character just cannot do two actions in a single segment?

The book states that held actions are lost at the beginning of the characters next phase (not sure of the page #, somewhere around 240 I think). This would be very problematic for a speedster with a SPD of 12 if his opponent has a higher DEX. It would mean that holding an action basically has virtually no meaning in this scenario (unless the opponent is holding as well).



Originally posted by Steve Long

This is not a question. AFAICT, this is a restatement of the rules and a complaint about how they work. Therefore it's inappropriate for this board, so I've moved it to "HERO System Discussion" in case anyone would like to discuss or comment.

[KarinsDad]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Gnome

By ignoring page 235. It seems to be a crummy rule. How about "If he uses his Held Action during a Segment in which he would have had a Phase, that Phase is lost because he can only have one Phase at a time."


Yeah, now if I could only convince my GM of the silliness of this rule. He tends to be a Steve's word is Law type of GM.


Originally posted by Fuzzy Gnome

On the other hand, someone argued on the Cybergames boards that it shouldn't be done that way because if Character A has a higher DEX than Character B, Character A should have a chance to prevent B from using his held action by timing his move just right. E.G. if B is Holding until A closes, intending to Martial Throw A, A should be able to attack at the top of the Segment that B has his next Phase with impunity. I don't know if I agree with that, but that was the argument.

Seems like a pretty lame metagaming counter position.

In the villain example I gave above, the villain is not really any faster than he is on any other phase, he is just taking advantage of a hole in the rules.

The best solution I see is by modifying the rule as you suggested, and then have all held actions be a DEX roll off, possibly with a bonus to the character holding the action.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Originally posted by KarinsDad
Seems like a pretty lame metagaming counter position.

Yeah, it seems that way to me too. Or I might not have remembered or explained it well. Anyway the guy holding his action could um blink yeah that's the ticket.

[xanatos]

The rule is even worse when you think of Flash-like characters with SPD 12! They have an action every segment, so they can't keep Held Actions from segment to segment!

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Oh ya, the faster you are, the more often you get distracted.
If my system went down every second and people could easily take advantage of it, I'd switch to Linux. :p