What skill would you use to see if someone is lying?

[tgaptte]

What skill would you use to see if someone is lying?

Conversation?
Acting?
Perception?

I'm not talking about the power...Detect: Lie...it seems there should be an appropriate skill that folks are likely to have as an Everyman skill that would make sense to use for lie detection...I just can't seem to find one that fits in the rules.

Thanks.

[BobGreenwade]

Offhand I'd use Conversation, of Perception with Conversation used as a complementary Skill.

[McCoy]

Interrogation, or maybe a PRE roll

[Blue Jogger]

I would probably use the rules under Acting. There they use a contest of Acting (to say fake moods and emotions) versus INT Roll in a Skill versus Skill Contest. That's the raw brainpower way to figure out if someone is lying.

Deduction, although that should only be used if the character has experience useful for a certain type of lie.
"Oh, detective, I would never kill my husband, I don't even know how to use a gun."
(Deduction roll made) "Where are the gloves that you were wearing last night? My guess is you had to get rid of them because of the powder burns would have given you away."

Interrogation
The book states psychological manipulation as a possiblity, "You'll know, if we figure out that you're lying, we'll have no choice but to make an example of you. And really, I like you, but them's the rules. So, are you really telling us the truth?"

Conversation
That would be having a long conversation with someone until they trip over their own lies. A failed conversation roll would mean they realize that you are trying to pump them for information.

[Lemurion]

Also possibly streetwise, especially when dealing with seamier individuals.

[Rapier]

That's a big question.

What skill is the person using to tell a lie? Do you really need a skill to tell a lie?

At its foundation, I believe this is going to be a skill vs skill roll. What skill is used is probably dependant on the situation.

"I'm a virgin...no really." -- Seduction
"I am not a crook." -- Oratory
"The rebel base is on Yavin 4!" -- Interrogation
"These are not the droids you are looking for!" -- Acting

It also depends a whole lot on what the detector knows. If he KNOWS she's not a virgin, no amount of skill rolling will help her pull off the fib. In most situations, I might go for a PER roll.

[ghost-angel]

Any Interaction Skill, appropriate to the situation at hand, would work I think.

Everyone's got good suggestions....

Streetwise: You know when the street is trying to bluff you because you know the street.
Conversation: You're good and talking people into circles.
Acting: You can tell when someone's acting other than their true selves.
Interogation: Drill 'em till they spill it.
PRE Roll: When you're no good at any of it and think maybe you're smarter than you are.


Or you could create a Bluff Skill - you know how lie, and how to tell when others are lying to you.

[Manic Typist]

I think all lies are covered by seduction. Basically, the whole point of the skill is to persuade someone. Whether it be to like you, sleep with you, die for you, or believe you.

[Sean Waters]

To echo ghost-angel (almost): an opposed roll with any interaction skill the player could convince me was appropriate.

Of course the player is not going to (usually) know the character is going to have to make a roll (and you can't tell them) SO, as a generic rule:

1. The same skill that you were lied to with
2. Any other interaction skill that seems appropriate, but possibly at a penalty (-1 or -2)
3. A PER roll, definitely at a penalty (-1 to -3)
4. Any other relevant skill (eg KS psychology) at a big penalty (-2 to -5)

[Solomon]

I, too, think that any Interaction skill would do, as dictated by the situation and opposed by either a PER roll or another Skill roll.

Examples:
Trading: "This car only got ten thousand miles under its belt and it's as good as new!"
Bureaucratics: "Of course we'll deal with it. I'll talk to the Mayor personally"
Oratory: "Vote for me! I'm honest!"

[Sean Waters]

That's skills for lying rather than for detecting a lie: not sure bureaucratics would often be good for detecting a lie...or oratory for that matter...

[Solomon]

Blimey! I got the question backwards! :o

EDIT: Though, I do think those skills might be used defensively in some instances, at least as complementary skills. After all, if you have a working knowledge of Oratory you'll probably be able to judge things such as rethorics or body language. Bureacratics, less so.

[Manic Typist]

You would know how likely it would be for the person you are talking to to actually TALK to the mayor.

Low level flunky? Not gonna happen.

Mid to high range? What paperwork is involved? How often are meetings held? How are these meetings run, so that you can tell if the subject is even likely to come up, etc?

[Michael Hopcroft]

Of course, there are many types of lies that adventurers will encounter.

For example, strangers in town are accosted by young toughs. One of them says "You can't do anythng to me -- I'm the son of the police chief, and I can get away with anything!"

He might be teling the truth. He might be talking out of his *** and have nothing to do with the police chief, but think wandering adventurers won't know any better. Or he might really be the police chief's son, but estranged or not getting along. Or he might has misinterpreted his relationship with his father, who would turn him in.

How are the PCs to know?

[Sean Waters]

One thing we probably don't check on half enough is if we think that someone is tellig the truth: sometimes someone can be telling the truth and they are not believed...

When rolling these things, if you only roll when the lies come up, or get the player to roll (and thus see the result) it is giveing an awful lot away.

[Vanguard00]

Skill-vs-skill roll for the appropriate Interaction Skill as suggested above, and use that as a complimentary roll to your PER roll.

Making your PER roll means you think the person is lying (if they are) or telling the truth (if they are). Failing your PER roll means you think the person is telling the truth (if they aren't) or they're lying (if they aren't).

[Utech]

All good ideas so far. Here are a couple of other random thoughts...

Psychology -- knowing how people's body language changes when they tell a lie; knowing the sort of details that mark a story as true and those that mark the story as a lie

KS/PS: Police Officer -- lots of experience hearing stories and then finding out which ones are lies.

Gambling (Poker) -- looking for the "tell."

PS: Lie Detector Operator -- even without the equipment, this person might have gotten a good feel for stories with the "ring of truth."

PS: Catholic Priest -- lots of years of hearing confessions..?

[ghost-angel]

Of course we're forgetting a big aspect of Interaction Skills and trying to "catch a lie" ... the PCs may very well think someone is lying and try to do something to expost the lie .

A Successful Roll, since the PC is 'looking for' a Lie may very well indicate a lie to the PC - even if the truth is being told.

We often find exactly what we are looking for, even if it really isn't there to be found.

[austenandrews]

As has been pointed out, any number of skills can be used to detect incriminating inconsistencies. But for a generic skill, I'd go with Conversation.

[BobGreenwade]

Then again, there's always the possibility of PS: Interrogator (who is trained to watch for signs of lying -- how the eyes dart, the voice quavers, etc.).

[Shike019]

You see, I think D&D 3.x handles this better. THe "Bluff" skill is used for any interaction that requires duping your opponent, such as feints in combat and lying. The "Sense Motive" Skill is used for detecting lies (which is based on Wisdom, or in HERO would be EGO) as well as general emotive state, weather they are trying to hide something from you, as well as detecting the "feint" form of bluff.

I think the closest thing in HERO to "Bluff" is Acting, you are puting on a performance of either telling the truth or lying, etc. And I'd say either an ego roll, or something of the like to detect the lie.

[Dust Raven]

To tell if someone is lying without the Detect: Lie enhanced sense:

Well, to tell a lie you just need to state an untruth. To make it convincing requires an appropriate Interaction Skill, a PRE Attack or even a simple PRE Roll. PS: Liar (or Lawyer, Politician, etc... they're all synonamous) makes an excellent Complimentary Skill.

To detect the lie, the liar needs only to fail his roll. How does he do that? Well, in most cases of the above "to tell a lie" Skills, it requires a Skill vs Skill attempt, with most of the other guy's (meaning the guy being lied to) rolls defaulting to a PER or INT roll, or possible a PRE roll.

So that's about it. If you want to make spotting a lie easier, there are several things you can do. One thing is to buy KS: Body Language, KS: Lying or such and use it as a complimentary skill. You can also stock up on Interaction Skills. Another method is to simply to Skill Levels for any Skill used to detect a lie.

Alternatively, you can simply choose not be believe what anyone says. Especially if you think they might be lying.

[Sean Waters]

Another thing it can be interesting to have NPCs do is tell the truth but try to look like they are lying: you know, touch their nose, not make eye contact etc etc....then the PC might believe they are lying when they are not....which is often the most effective lie of all :)

[Kristopher]

While I understand the problem of PCs possessing skills and abilities that the players do not, this is something that, IMO, should come down to roleplaying as much as it does to rolling.

[Vondy]

From the list:

Conversation would be the most precise. Depending on the circumstances and environs, Streetwise or High Society or Interrogation might be used as complimentary skills. SS: Psychology or the like might also be used. And a Photographic Memory might give bonuses, since the listener would be more likely to pick up contradictions.

Acting is the ability to decieve or put on a show, but may or may not be useful in detecting such things. What if they are a natural born liar and not using techniques? Would the actor catch that? I have no answer.

Interrogation, whether it be through directed interview or more "energetic means" strikes me as being more active - the interrogator is actively eliciting information that could be used to identify contradictions or deception.

My impression is that this question is more in line with "passive detection" via listening and good people sense, and my feeling is Conversation is the best choice from the list.

On the other hand - I have ZERO problem with the creation of NEW SKILLS! If a character has an instinctive or educated nose for rooting out lies I see no problem with creating a "Truthwise" skill (PRE) and using it in a skill versus skill or skill versus presence contest. In fact, I'd prefer it to making a wonky power construct that does the exact same thing.

[tgaptte]

Hi all,

Thanks for the great suggestions and discussion, it's been a big help! I should have known with this as well as everything else in HERO, TMTOWTDI!


Acronmyn TMTOWTDI descrambled here:
14-5-8-1-8-'-15- -9-7-1-8- -14-5-3-17- -7-17-8- -2-3-25- -14-7- -4-7- -18-14-!-

Tim

[Tech]

What skill would you use to see if someone is lying?

Conversation?
Acting?
Perception?

I'm not talking about the power...Detect: Lie...it seems there should be an appropriate skill that folks are likely to have as an Everyman skill that would make sense to use for lie detection...I just can't seem to find one that fits in the rules.

Thanks.

Don't forget the skill that any brute could use: threaten.
BigMan: I grab the thug and shake his socks loose. "You better not be lying to me!"
Thug: No, I'm not!
:eek:

[SirViss]

I just want to point out that there is a skill that is built to "tell believable lies." It's Persuasion, and it has a rules already spelled out on how to detect lies when this skill is used.

It doesn't specifically spell this out, but I would allow Complementary rolls from appropriate Interaction Skills on both sides of a conversation.

[prestidigitator]

I just want to point out that there is a skill that is built to "tell believable lies." It's Persuasion, and it has a rules already spelled out on how to detect lies when this skill is used.

It doesn't specifically spell this out, but I would allow Complementary rolls from appropriate Interaction Skills on both sides of a conversation.
Just what I was going to say. I think Skills such as Acting might be useful to use as the Primary Skill in rare circumstances, but it and others can certainly be Complimentary in the more common case.

I would definitely allow Complimentary Skill Rolls (or possibly even substitutions for the normal roll on the opposed check) if the lier or target possesses Skills that directly relate to the subject of the lie.