Invisibility limitations

[Sean Waters]

Two limitations, bith at -1/2 listed under invisibility:

1. Chameleon: only invisible when not moving

2. Only when not attacking (speaks for istelf, really...)

The first you have to be completely motionless. The second you can move about all you like so long as you don't attack. Somehow it is perissible to take both.

OK. So can someone explain why these two limitations have the same limitation value? This has puzzled me for some time...

[prestidigitator]

Two limitations, bith at -1/2 listed under invisibility:

1. Chameleon: only invisible when not moving

2. Only when not attacking (speaks for istelf, really...)

The first you have to be completely motionless. The second you can move about all you like so long as you don't attack. Somehow it is perissible to take both.

OK. So can someone explain why these two limitations have the same limitation value? This has puzzled me for some time...
Hmm. Well, we might blame the granularity of the system's modifiers (+-1/4), but I will point out that some attacks may not require any movement at all. A lot of Mental Powers, for example, and probably a number with Indirect and no Gestures.

[Erkenfresh]

They seem about the same in level of limitation to me. Besides, when you do attack, even without the "when not attacking" limitation, the weapon used to perform the attack is visible. I'm not sure how that works with a mental attack, perhaps your brain becomes visible?

[prestidigitator]

They seem about the same in level of limitation to me. Besides, when you do attack, even without the "when not attacking" limitation, the weapon used to perform the attack is visible. I'm not sure how that works with a mental attack, perhaps your brain becomes visible?
Mental Attacks themselves are not normally (fully) visible. I would say that an invisible character making a mental attack would temporarily become visible for a moment to anyone with Mental Awareness (without the Only When Not Attacking Limitation, that is; if the Limitation is present I would say the Invisibility turns off until reactivated).

[Sean Waters]

I'm not convinced; most attacks come from a point of origin - even mental attacks - unless you have indirect - which means that you would at least need to move to aim, and thus give your position away.

I'd put chameleon nearer to +1, personally.

[Erkenfresh]

Now it's an advantage?!? ;)

You're the GM, do whatever you feel is right.

[OddHat]

I've always ruled that "Only when not attacking" means that your invisibility turns off until your next phase, at which point you can take a 0 phase action and turn it on again. At SPD 4, that's a long time standing there as an available target. Also, key point, you can still move around freely. With Chameleon, your Invisibility never turns off. You can take a move or half move and attack, and still be invisible in those key segments between your phases. Take both together for -1 and you completely blow your cover when you move or attack.

Just a GM's call, not an official rule.

[Sean Waters]

Now it's an advantage?!? ;)

You're the GM, do whatever you feel is right.


Yeah, and if you have to hold your breath and stand on one leg it is a +2.

[Sean Waters]

I've always ruled that "Only when not attacking" means that your invisibility turns off until your next phase, at which point you can take a 0 phase action and turn it on again. At SPD 4, that's a long time standing there as an available target. Also, key point, you can still move around freely. With Chameleon, your Invisibility never turns off. You can take a move or half move and attack, and still be invisible in those key segments between your phases. Take both together for -1 and you completely blow your cover when you move or attack.

Just a GM's call, not an official rule.


Good ruling! I wonder what penalties to assign for someone attacking a chameleon though if you KNOW where the target is, even if you can't see them? Normal invisibility derives the bonuses it gives at least in part becasue you don't know exactly wheree the target it....

Anyway this is a good ruling methinks: makes it make much more sense. Cheers.

[OddHat]

Glad you found it useful.

Targetting someone using Chameleon when you know where they are is (imo) attacking them using a non-targetting sense, as per the standard rules for attacking invisible foes.

[Dust Raven]

OddHat, you've presented a truly profound ruling, as well as an explination for attacking a character with Chameleon Invisibility when you know where they are. Repped!

Now I have to think of something useful to contribute...

Naw... I think you've got it covered. :)

[Silbeg]

Two limitations, bith at -1/2 listed under invisibility:

1. Chameleon: only invisible when not moving


You can certainly attack if not moving... example would be a sniper (even better is a sniper with a weapon with IPE). You know, I had never really thought of this before?



2. Only when not attacking (speaks for istelf, really...)

This is more like the D&D Invis. spell, for example. When you attack, you would void the invis, regardless of whether or not the attack is invis. The power "just knows". Maybe the D&D Sanctuary spells is an even better example?

Sean, I really hadn't thought of this (and I was working on a character with a "stealth suit" this weekend).

[ghost-angel]

There is no rule stating that one must Move in any way to use an attack. Silbeg's sniper is a perfect example. Therefore they are not mutually exclusive Limitations.

[Sean Waters]

Whilst there is no rule stating you have to move and (as Silberg rightly points out) a sniper is an example of someone who may move VERY LITTLE (under the threshold, probably) to attack, that is only because they are such a long way away and tiny movements of the gun have a big effect as it moving through an arc, at the point of aim.

In anything like normal combat though at anything like normal combat range, movement is one of those necessary components of attack, unless you have the patience to just stand there until the target wanders into your point of aim, or a really impressive area effect attack.

Technically even mental powers should have a point of origin and be targetted in a particular direction (so THEORETICALLY if a guard standing behind you points a gun at you and tells you to freeze, you can not mentally attack him, or even mind read him to see if he really has a gun, unless you have indirect or mind scan or a point of power origin in the back of your head, or you risk it and turn around anyway). Weird, huh?

[prestidigitator]

Whilst there is no rule stating you have to move and (as Silberg rightly points out) a sniper is an example of someone who may move VERY LITTLE (under the threshold, probably) to attack, that is only because they are such a long way away and tiny movements of the gun have a big effect as it moving through an arc, at the point of aim.

In anything like normal combat though at anything like normal combat range, movement is one of those necessary components of attack, unless you have the patience to just stand there until the target wanders into your point of aim, or a really impressive area effect attack.

Technically even mental powers should have a point of origin and be targetted in a particular direction (so THEORETICALLY if a guard standing behind you points a gun at you and tells you to freeze, you can not mentally attack him, or even mind read him to see if he really has a gun, unless you have indirect or mind scan or a point of power origin in the back of your head, or you risk it and turn around anyway). Weird, huh?
Mental Powers aren't inherently Indirect? Dang! I could have sworn they had some level of Indirect automatically. If not, they should. Just because I say so. :o

[Dust Raven]

Whilst there is no rule stating you have to move and (as Silberg rightly points out) a sniper is an example of someone who may move VERY LITTLE (under the threshold, probably) to attack, that is only because they are such a long way away and tiny movements of the gun have a big effect as it moving through an arc, at the point of aim.

In anything like normal combat though at anything like normal combat range, movement is one of those necessary components of attack, unless you have the patience to just stand there until the target wanders into your point of aim, or a really impressive area effect attack.
Isn't the "no movement" condition of Chameleon just moving from hex to hex? So the chameleon character can actually be jumping and jiving all he wants so long as it's all in the same hex. Granted, that doesn't seem to be too logical, but the point is is thst I think Chameleon allows some motion, but not as much motion as it would take to move from hex to hex.


Technically even mental powers should have a point of origin and be targetted in a particular direction (so THEORETICALLY if a guard standing behind you points a gun at you and tells you to freeze, you can not mentally attack him, or even mind read him to see if he really has a gun, unless you have indirect or mind scan or a point of power origin in the back of your head, or you risk it and turn around anyway). Weird, huh?

Indirect won't help you here, only 240 degree or 360 degree vision. The idea is that you have to target the person you want to attack with a targeting sense, and if all you have is Normal Sight, then you've got to either turn around or have some Power that makes it so you don't need to turn around.

[ghost-angel]

Technically even mental powers should have a point of origin and be targetted in a particular direction (so THEORETICALLY if a guard standing behind you points a gun at you and tells you to freeze, you can not mentally attack him, or even mind read him to see if he really has a gun, unless you have indirect or mind scan or a point of power origin in the back of your head, or you risk it and turn around anyway). Weird, huh?
The point of origin is You. Usually your Brain.

If you use Spatial Awareness, Targeting, 360 Degrees, Mental Group you don't have to move at all to locate, target and attack anyone around you.

What you mention here is Arc Of Fire - everyone gets 180 Degrees for free, in the direction of your Facing. Arc Of Fire has nothing to do with Movement at all. As you expand your Arc Of Fire less and less "turning" it required to bring targets to bear. If you have a 360 Arc, and Invisible you can target anyone around you without having to techincally move.

[Andrew Cermak]

Isn't the "no movement" condition of Chameleon just moving from hex to hex? So the chameleon character can actually be jumping and jiving all he wants so long as it's all in the same hex. Granted, that doesn't seem to be too logical, but the point is is thst I think Chameleon allows some motion, but not as much motion as it would take to move from hex to hex.

This is more or less how I'd handle it. Movement within the hex can be done slowly and deliberately enough to stay Invisible. So changing facing or bringing an attack to bear wouldn't be a problem.

[Sean Waters]

Isn't the "no movement" condition of Chameleon just moving from hex to hex? So the chameleon character can actually be jumping and jiving all he wants so long as it's all in the same hex. Granted, that doesn't seem to be too logical, but the point is is thst I think Chameleon allows some motion, but not as much motion as it would take to move from hex to hex.



The word it uses is 'motionless'. You might even have to make a DEX roll to remain motionless if a powerful enemy passes nearby, so I don't think dancing on the spot is what is envisaged....




Indirect won't help you here, only 240 degree or 360 degree vision. The idea is that you have to target the person you want to attack with a targeting sense, and if all you have is Normal Sight, then you've got to either turn around or have some Power that makes it so you don't need to turn around.

Well you can target with a hearing roll, and indirect will let you shoot backwards, if bought to the right level. The point I make is that even mental powers have a point of origin and I have to disagree with erm...Dust Angel...that you can set your brain as the POO (so to speak), any move than you could set your liver as the POO of your energy blast and have it come out of any bit of you so long as it started there. I'm pretty sure that POO has to be on the surface somewhere.

[Sean Waters]

The point of origin is You. Usually your Brain.

If you use Spatial Awareness, Targeting, 360 Degrees, Mental Group you don't have to move at all to locate, target and attack anyone around you.

What you mention here is Arc Of Fire - everyone gets 180 Degrees for free, in the direction of your Facing. Arc Of Fire has nothing to do with Movement at all. As you expand your Arc Of Fire less and less "turning" it required to bring targets to bear. If you have a 360 Arc, and Invisible you can target anyone around you without having to techincally move.

Being able to perceive a target and actually being able to point your attack at it are not the same. If you are tied with your hands behind your back and that is where your STUN BLAST (TM) comes from, the fact that you can see the villain in front of you is not going to help.

I'm really not sure that setting an internal organ as your power's point of origin is legitiate, and even if it is, internal organs still have a facing, unless you have a brain that can rotate in your skull.

[prestidigitator]

The point I make is that even mental powers have a point of origin and I have to disagree with erm...Dust Angel...that you can set your brain as the POO (so to speak), any move than you could set your liver as the POO of your energy blast and have it come out of any bit of you so long as it started there. I'm pretty sure that POO has to be on the surface somewhere.
Hmm. But would, "head," be specific enough? Certainly you don't have to specify which finger....

And that really is getting confusing, guys! The names are one thing, but did you have to do the pictures too?! :slap: :p

[ghost-angel]

I'm really not sure that setting an internal organ as your power's point of origin is legitiate, and even if it is, internal organs still have a facing, unless you have a brain that can rotate in your skull.
See my statements regarding Arc Of Perception. Mental Powers are targeting via Line Of Sight - which is determined by he Arc Of Fire of a Targeting Sense.

Bringing in restrainment to the picture merely alters the Arc Of Fire and Ability To Perceive and still has nothing to do with Movement.

[ghost-angel]

Well you can target with a hearing roll, and indirect will let you shoot backwards, if bought to the right level. The point I make is that even mental powers have a point of origin and I have to disagree with erm...Dust Angel...that you can set your brain as the POO (so to speak), any move than you could set your liver as the POO of your energy blast and have it come out of any bit of you so long as it started there. I'm pretty sure that POO has to be on the surface somewhere.
Well, since Mental Powers react Mentally I would say your Mental Facility (Brain) is a pretty good place for the Origin of a Mental Power.

[ghost-angel]

The point being is that I believe we've come up with enough situations, enough power builds and enough Sensory contructs to prove that Movement and Attacking are mutually exclusive concepts at least half the time for the purposes of Invisibility.

[prestidigitator]

See my statements regarding Arc Of Perception. Mental Powers are targeting via Line Of Sight - which is determined by he Arc Of Fire of a Targeting Sense.
Hmm. I'm not sure. The target of a Mental Power doesn't have to actually be visible to you. Is it that they must be within the normal arc of the Targetting Sense, or just within its "range?"

[Sean Waters]

See my statements regarding Arc Of Perception. Mental Powers are targeting via Line Of Sight - which is determined by he Arc Of Fire of a Targeting Sense.

Bringing in restrainment to the picture merely alters the Arc Of Fire and Ability To Perceive and still has nothing to do with Movement.

Well, 360 degree spatial awareness is a little outside the parameters of the original point but LOS is just has range consequences; I don't see anything that says it replaces the need for a point of origin or for that point of origin to be pointing the right way.

[ghost-angel]

Hmm. I'm not sure. The target of a Mental Power doesn't have to actually be visible to you. Is it that they must be within the normal arc of the Targetting Sense, or just within its "range?"
For the purposes of Targeting a Mental Attack you need to establish Line Of Sight. Line Of Sight is established by being able to Perceive the Target with any Targeting Sense.


Well, 360 degree spatial awareness is a little outside the parameters of the original point but LOS is just has range consequences; I don't see anything that says it replaces the need for a point of origin or for that point of origin to be pointing the right way.
And, simply to continue using Mental Powers, why can't the Point Of Origina be "The Attackers Mind" ... nothing in the Point Of Origin rules (all both paragraphs) forbid this. All they state is that the Power must obvisouly come from the Attacker and that the Point may not be changed later.

Here's one for you... Point Of Origin is a Laser Beam set into a tiara, it also has several cameras built in that's linked to a targeting monacle so I can see all around me. The Laser eyes can rotate around the entire Tiara allowing the blast to fire from any direction. Mechcanically I have purchased the following:
Laser Beam Energy Blast, OIF: Tiara
Head Cameras 360 Degree Perception for Sight Group, OIF: Tiara

Now I have not only properly followed the Point Of Origin Rules I can also target my laser beam in any direction and fire it in any direction.

So there is sufficient evidence of legal builds that make Not While Moving and Not While Attacking mutually exclusive Limitations on Invisibility.

That doesn't mean it's good for all campaigns - that's where the GM steps in. In many, mostly realistic Heroic Campaigns, they are mutually inclusive Limitations and a single -1/2 could cover both situations.

[Dust Raven]

This is more or less how I'd handle it. Movement within the hex can be done slowly and deliberately enough to stay Invisible. So changing facing or bringing an attack to bear wouldn't be a problem.

Exactly. And how else is the character going to maintail full DCV otherwise? There is nothing in the description of Chameleon that says a character must be at 0 DCV, which is exactly what would happen of the character is completely motionless.

[Sean Waters]

And, simply to continue using Mental Powers, why can't the Point Of Origina be "The Attackers Mind" ... nothing in the Point Of Origin rules (all both paragraphs) forbid this. All they state is that the Power must obvisouly come from the Attacker and that the Point may not be changed later.

Here's one for you... Point Of Origin is a Laser Beam set into a tiara, it also has several cameras built in that's linked to a targeting monacle so I can see all around me. The Laser eyes can rotate around the entire Tiara allowing the blast to fire from any direction. Mechcanically I have purchased the following:
Laser Beam Energy Blast, OIF: Tiara
Head Cameras 360 Degree Perception for Sight Group, OIF: Tiara

Now I have not only properly followed the Point Of Origin Rules I can also target my laser beam in any direction and fire it in any direction.

So there is sufficient evidence of legal builds that make Not While Moving and Not While Attacking mutually exclusive Limitations on Invisibility.

That doesn't mean it's good for all campaigns - that's where the GM steps in. In many, mostly realistic Heroic Campaigns, they are mutually inclusive Limitations and a single -1/2 could cover both situations.



....surely what you've done is built +1/4 indirect using special effects. I mean, to carry the argument forward you could presumably define the POO as 'my body' and have it go off from anywhere? The POO has to be quite specific and has to involve some limitation on the character to my reading of it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Exactly. And how else is the character going to maintail full DCV otherwise? There is nothing in the description of Chameleon that says a character must be at 0 DCV, which is exactly what would happen of the character is completely motionless.

I would go one step further and conclude that the Chameleon limitation implies the character need not remain motionless. As you say, remaining motionless would imply a 0 DCV, and 0 DCV Concentrate throughout use of a constant power is a -1 limitation by itself.

[Sean Waters]

I would go one step further and conclude that the Chameleon limitation implies the character need not remain motionless. As you say, remaining motionless would imply a 0 DCV, and 0 DCV Concentrate throughout use of a constant power is a -1 limitation by itself.


Well I agree but the wording in 5ER is reasonable definitive. However, if you'd taken the power with the concentrate limitation then you would have 0 DCV when somehone hits you. With this you don't: if they have detected you enough to hit you, although you may not be moving as they throw the punch there is nothing to prevent you moving out of the way of it: however you would the clearly become visible to the attacker and others - I'd rule that THAT attack still counts as attacking an invisible target.

Personally I think 'chameleon' is unnecessary as it can largely be covered by other limtiations BUT like I said before, I like OddHat's interpretation, and would go with that.

[ghost-angel]

....surely what you've done is built +1/4 indirect using special effects. I mean, to carry the argument forward you could presumably define the POO as 'my body' and have it go off from anywhere? The POO has to be quite specific and has to involve some limitation on the character to my reading of it.
Where does it say that?

It never mentions it just be "Specific" it mentions one must be chosen. If one chooses a Laster Pistol you can just as easily try and point it backwards and fire it behind you.

And it says it "Can" involve and limitation, it's not implicitely required.

[prestidigitator]

Where does it say that?

It never mentions it just be "Specific" it mentions one must be chosen. If one chooses a Laster Pistol you can just as easily try and point it backwards and fire it behind you.

And it says it "Can" involve and limitation, it's not implicitely required.
Agreed. I think the normal POO is mostly going to become an issue when a specific limb/bodypart is Grabbed, Entangled, Disabled, etc. There might be other specific situations in which it becomes an issue, but they'll likely be pretty rare.

[Dust Raven]

Will all POO all over the place, I'd better watch my step...

I see no problem with defining "the mind" as a point of origin for mental attack. Its reasonably limited, just as "the eyes" "a gun" or "my belt buckle" would be. While the eyes can be blocked by controlling the direction the head. A gun held in the hand would have much more freedom of movement, but is also easier to restrain or control. A belt buckle is very difficult to restrain or control, but also has very little range of motion. The mind should simply have similar advantages and disadvantages. In this case, I'd say any interferance with the character's targeting senses would quallify. If you cannot perceive the target with a targeting sense, you can't attack. Period. Might not sound to restrictive, but when you realize you can fire your eye beams, gun or belt buckle flame thrower wildly while blind and have a chance of hitting something... The aim of the mind is also limited to the range and field of those targeting senses, which almost always face the same direction (the rules specifically state that by default all your targeting senses face the same direction).

[Sean Waters]

Where does it say that?

It never mentions it just be "Specific" it mentions one must be chosen. If one chooses a Laster Pistol you can just as easily try and point it backwards and fire it behind you.

And it says it "Can" involve and limitation, it's not implicitely required.

Oh yes, you can point it any way you like but you have to point it: it has a way it points and if it can't point that way then you can't hit anything that your not pointing at. If you get my point.

Now if you want to define the brain as the POO then I'd have no problem so long as you are not claiming your power can shoot out of any bit of the brain in any direction: if it has to start int he brain and basically fire forward through the forehead: no problem.

As to a specific page reference I'd go with 5ER p 260 2nd column, 2/3 of the way down. I see defining a POO that can point any way you like as requiring the indirect advnatage: in effect you are constantly re-defining your POO.

Oh Lord, we need another acronym....

[Sean Waters]

Will all POO all over the place, I'd better watch my step...

I see no problem with defining "the mind" as a point of origin for mental attack. Its reasonably limited, just as "the eyes" "a gun" or "my belt buckle" would be. While the eyes can be blocked by controlling the direction the head. A gun held in the hand would have much more freedom of movement, but is also easier to restrain or control. A belt buckle is very difficult to restrain or control, but also has very little range of motion. The mind should simply have similar advantages and disadvantages. In this case, I'd say any interferance with the character's targeting senses would quallify. If you cannot perceive the target with a targeting sense, you can't attack. Period. Might not sound to restrictive, but when you realize you can fire your eye beams, gun or belt buckle flame thrower wildly while blind and have a chance of hitting something... The aim of the mind is also limited to the range and field of those targeting senses, which almost always face the same direction (the rules specifically state that by default all your targeting senses face the same direction).

By that token you could define your skin as the POO: would that mean that your laser blast RKA can come out of any part of your skin in any direction you can sense without some sort of andvantage: if so, what is the point of the POO rules at all, and if not, why are mental powers different?

[Sean Waters]

...oh, and mental powers are NOT limited to hitting things you can sense. Watch in awe as page 117 contradicts page 266 on what Line Of Sight (my emphasis) means.

Cool, huh?

[Dust Raven]

By that token you could define your skin as the POO: would that mean that your laser blast RKA can come out of any part of your skin in any direction you can sense without some sort of andvantage: if so, what is the point of the POO rules at all, and if not, why are mental powers different?

Skin is not inherently limiting, as is with the others I mentioned (includng "the mind).

[Dust Raven]

...oh, and mental powers are NOT limited to hitting things you can sense. Watch in awe as page 117 contradicts page 266 on what Line Of Sight (my emphasis) means.

Cool, huh?

I see no contradiction.

[Sean Waters]

Skin is not inherently limiting, as is with the others I mentioned (includng "the mind).


Mind is only limiting by your definition in terms of your arc of targetting sense: the same thing could apply to skin in exactly the same way.

OK, that contradiction: LOS (the advantage) seems to be saying 'you can't see it, you can't hit it'.

Mental powers specifically say (under LOS) you CAN target stuff you can not perceive if you know roughly where it is (remember the guard standing behind you at the start of all this?) if you take half EOCV.

This is odd because it implies that mental powers work just like any other ranged power, and given that stuff like walls does not stop them, it does seem strange: you can fire 'blind' with a line of sight power.

Invisibilty (30 points: sight group and mental group) only v mental powers (-2, probably, maybe -1) so 10-15 points gets you mental power immunity, for mentos with no targetting sense but sight and their vaunted mental powers. You can only read my mind if you can find me with your nose....Bwahahahahaha!

Cool.

That would also mean if you could define brain as your POO and by that you meant any point on your brain, in any driection away from it, then you could hit anything in your arc of 'vision' and anything outside it at a combat penalty to EOCV without moving.

[prestidigitator]

Mental powers specifically say (under LOS) you CAN target stuff you can not perceive if you know roughly where it is (remember the guard standing behind you at the start of all this?) if you take half EOCV.
Woo hoo. I thought so. I was just too lazy and absent-minded to look it up last night. Thanks. :)

[PhilFleischmann]

I don't think anyone would want to define their POO as being their brain. Because then people would call them "POO-for-brains," and rightly so.

But yes, I've always interpreted the Chameleon limitation as meaning, you simply can't use any Movement Power,* not that you have to remain completely still like a statue. The Chameleon Lim doesn't reduce your DCV, and if you've got your full DCV, then you must be moving in some form.

That is sort-of how chameleons do it: they stay in one place, but they do turn their heads and flick their tails when necessary. Then they lash out without warning and with deadly accuracy with their tongue at the bug that couldn't see them.

*I allow an exception with Flight if you're simply hovering in place.

[ghost-angel]

...oh, and mental powers are NOT limited to hitting things you can sense. Watch in awe as page 117 contradicts page 266 on what Line Of Sight (my emphasis) means.

Cool, huh?
I take "See" in the context of p266 as an extension of the context of p117.

Perhaps it could better been qualified as Line Of Perception, but that irrelevant.

If I can perceive in 360 Degrees, and paid for that - and it's not the cheapest of minor Powers - I better damn well be able to fire in any direction with minimal effort.

[Dust Raven]

Mind is only limiting by your definition in terms of your arc of targetting sense: the same thing could apply to skin in exactly the same way.
Except the mind arc of fire is limited to the character's arc of perception, skin is not. I might allow a Power to have "skin" as the point of origin if it were a no range power like a Damage Shield or an AoE, which covers or eminates from the whole body.


OK, that contradiction: LOS (the advantage) seems to be saying 'you can't see it, you can't hit it'.

Mental powers specifically say (under LOS) you CAN target stuff you can not perceive if you know roughly where it is (remember the guard standing behind you at the start of all this?) if you take half EOCV.

This is odd because it implies that mental powers work just like any other ranged power, and given that stuff like walls does not stop them, it does seem strange: you can fire 'blind' with a line of sight power.
The advantage specifically states that a Power with it operates similar to Mental Powers. Walls block use of the Power in the same way as with Mental Powers.


Invisibilty (30 points: sight group and mental group) only v mental powers (-2, probably, maybe -1) so 10-15 points gets you mental power immunity, for mentos with no targetting sense but sight and their vaunted mental powers. You can only read my mind if you can find me with your nose....Bwahahahahaha!
The problem with that is that using normal sight, the attacker will still know the location of the target, and while he can't use sight as a targeting sense for LOS powers, he can use it as an automatic success as a non targeting sense, and may attack anyway. It's a waste of points. Kinda like putting Extra Time on Instant Change.


Cool.

That would also mean if you could define brain as your POO and by that you meant any point on your brain, in any driection away from it, then you could hit anything in your arc of 'vision' and anything outside it at a combat penalty to EOCV without moving.
That's not how it works. At least not to my understanding. You'd define your mind as the point of origin, and my fire in the direction of your arc of perception, not any direction period. Unless you had a 360 degree targeting sense, you could not use a LOS Power on someone behind you for example.

[prestidigitator]

Hmm. I think part of the reason I think of Mental Powers as to some degree Indirect is that you can use them through Mind Scan. You certainly don't need to worry about POO in that case. In fact, the target could be at the center of the Earth or on the other side of Jupiter. Now I don't know about you, but I see Mind Scan as substituting for LOS, not conveying a new Inherent property not normally present for Mental Powers.

EDIT: Let me add that with a good enough Effect Roll on Mind Scan, you can attack targets with non-Mental Powers, but this doesn't convey any sort of additional range or Indirect properties to such attacks.

[ghost-angel]

You can also use Mental Powers through objects such as windows - as long as you can establish LOS. Which does, in fact, give them a certain level of indirect in the strictest sense of the rules.

I'm not near my books but it may even state that.