VIPER -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[GestaltBennie]

We've done this before and got some good feedback, and we've probably gotten some new people on the boards who haven't had a chance to offer their opinions, so...

...what would you like to see?

Scott Bennie

[Peregrine]

Everything that was in the old VIPER book, updated for the new CU.

There. That wasn't so hard, now was it? :)

[Steve Long]

Just to clarify, I'm afraid the new VIPER book isn't going to be quite like the old one, so Peregrine it least is bound to be slightly disappointed. ;)

The main difference is that it's not going to be an Enemies book with an organization tacked on. The old VIPER book had 40 villains written up in it, occupying approximately 40% of the book. That's too much. The one Scott and I are currently writing has more like a dozen villains.

However, all the most important and coolest parts of the old book -- the extensive selections of equipment and agent Package Deals, information on the inner workings of VIPER, a review of what the organization does and how it does it, etc. -- will all be in there. That's the heart of what an organization book should contain, in most cases, so that's what the book will focus on.

VIPER's different in the new CU, so the book needs to be different, too -- but that doesn't mean it's not going to be every bit as fun and useful. ;)

[Storn]

The good borrow.

Genius Steals.

In that vein, I just looked thru Penumbra's excellent Dynasties and Demagogues. A great book on the "hows" of fantasy politics.

I think that has some bearing on the Viper book. Instead of the hows of fantasy politics... I want the hows of Organized Crime in a superhero world. How do Nests operate? How do they interact with each other? How does Viper utilized supertechnology to fight superheroes... how does it use the most mundane of Organized Crime techniques and strategems to keep operating?

I want Viper to have more than a US outlook... what about Mexico, S. america, Africa, golden triangle? Opium smuggling thru France and Germany from the Balkans? Gun selling to Kazikstan and East Timor?

Then, give me the hooks where those Viper interests can bump up against player characters and authority interests... how a cell might collapse under an informant turned Federal witness... how one Nest might betray another...What keeps Viper from taking over the world? What is the checks and balances to keep it underground... or suggestions that a true, one planet gov't is evolving.. and it ain't pretty.... How can I run that?

I want some thought and some effort to go beyond the Cobra of GI joe and the Hydra of Marvel comics. Push the envelope, surprise me.

and as always, self-serving me, I want to do some illos!

[Pattern Ghost]

One thing that I would have liked to see in Champions was an actual map of the base for the team. It's pretty handy to have that sort of thing at least as a reference point, so maybe a mapped out Viper nest, along with the stat blocks for it, would be a good thing to include.

[Peregrine]

Originally posted by Steve Long
Just to clarify, I'm afraid the new VIPER book isn't going to be quite like the old one, so Peregrine it least is bound to be slightly disappointed. ;)

The main difference is that it's not going to be an Enemies book with an organization tacked on. The old VIPER book had 40 villains written up in it, occupying approximately 40% of the book. That's too much. The one Scott and I are currently writing has more like a dozen villains.

However, all the most important and coolest parts of the old book -- the extensive selections of equipment and agent Package Deals, information on the inner workings of VIPER, a review of what the organization does and how it does it, etc. -- will all be in there. That's the heart of what an organization book should contain, in most cases, so that's what the book will focus on.

VIPER's different in the new CU, so the book needs to be different, too -- but that doesn't mean it's not going to be every bit as fun and useful. ;)

Well, given that I had more of the Organization and less of the Enemies in mind, that sounds just about perfect.

[Monolith]

I would rather know how VIPER interacts with the Champions Universe then to just know basic information about the organization. For me it is important to understand how VIPER works with or around the other organized crime groups. VIPER/ARGENT, VIPER/DEMON, VIPER/Mafia, VIPER/Teleios, etc. What are the perspectives from both sides? Is VIPER making its own weapons or buying them from ARGENT? Does VIPER use cloned agents bought from Teleios, or are they competitors in the mercenary supplying market? Does the Mafia hate VIPER for stepping on its toes, or does VIPER not operate in the normal organized crimes (drugs, etc)?

The relationships within the Champions Universe are far more interesting to me then just knowing who the founders of VIPER are, and what equipment they use.

[Hermit]

Let me try to think of what I liked about the VIPER 4th Gen book...

Hmm, everything. Really, it was one fantastic supplement.

However, things that stand out in my mind that were useful included:

1) The personality 'types' for the various Nest Leaders and Viper agents. More than anything else, this helped me remove the overly generic feel organizations sometimes get.

2) The modular 'put a 30 pt weapon here' easy to bake agents. Viper may not have the solution to every problem they encounter, but they should at least try to adapt, and the mix of various agents and weapons helped show that.

3) The plot generator. I often 'wing it' when I game, and when I haven't prepared, those charts were a Godsend.

I'd like a sample Viper Nest, one built for an official setting (I would prefer Millennium City myself), but easily adapted to any other city.

I was never that big on on the 'genetically altered snake men' (Python and crew) in the COIL vein in the 4th Ed book. I don't mind theme villain teams, but given the many sciences and contacts VIPER has, I would have prefered serpentine motiffs with more varied sources for the powers/abilities.



Hope that helps

[winterhawk]

Originally posted by Hermit
I was never that big on on the 'genetically altered snake men' (Python and crew) in the COIL vein in the 4th Ed book...


As I was reading through this post, my first thought was "Cool, now we get some snakemen villains!" :p

Since COIL seems to have gone the way of the dodo, I was hoping that King Cobra and the Coil gene could be incorporated into the VIPER book. Since it sounds like the number of villains will be limited, how about just King C and some COIL gene mutation tables ala Champions Presents #2, so I can make a few of my own. And I know I have heard that some of the 'classic' villains like Occulon and Ripper are supposed to be included, I hope those guys are amongst the dozen villains mentioned above.

Other than that, what everyone has mentioned so far sounds good, especially the relationship with other criminal organizations.

[KawangaKid]

I'd also like to see the worldwide agenda of VIPER, and an example of how they develop and use that massive NonCombatInfluence of theirs.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by winterhawk
As I was reading through this post, my first thought was "Cool, now we get some snakemen villains!" :p



*L* sorry. I'm sure I'll like whatever they come up with, so that wasn't a BIG gripe of mine. I still like the idea of snake themed villains, I just prefer it not all come from the COIL gene. Let one be a mutant, another a cyborg, etc. Why would they then have a theme at all? For Organization Morale, to help promote the Viper Image,etc.

And yes, Monolith has a great point about relations being covered.

On a related note, if Viper has infiltrated any 'good' organizations, it would be neat to have that noted.

[Susano]

Originally posted by Storn
The good borrow.

Genius Steals.

In that vein, I just looked thru Penumbra's excellent Dynasties and Demagogues. A great book on the "hows" of fantasy politics.

I think that has some bearing on the Viper book. Instead of the hows of fantasy politics... I want the hows of Organized Crime in a superhero world. How do Nests operate? How do they interact with each other? How does Viper utilized supertechnology to fight superheroes... how does it use the most mundane of Organized Crime techniques and strategems to keep operating?

I want Viper to have more than a US outlook... what about Mexico, S. america, Africa, golden triangle? Opium smuggling thru France and Germany from the Balkans? Gun selling to Kazikstan and East Timor?

Then, give me the hooks where those Viper interests can bump up against player characters and authority interests... how a cell might collapse under an informant turned Federal witness... how one Nest might betray another...What keeps Viper from taking over the world? What is the checks and balances to keep it underground... or suggestions that a true, one planet gov't is evolving.. and it ain't pretty.... How can I run that?

I want some thought and some effort to go beyond the Cobra of GI joe and the Hydra of Marvel comics. Push the envelope, surprise me.

and as always, self-serving me, I want to do some illos!

Well, Storn has said it all for me.

Personally, I never used VIPER, but material like this can be adapted to another such organization of my own creation (see the part about "Genius Steals" :D ).

And please, can we not have Vipera?

[Tim]

Count me as another NO vote for Viperia.

Other than that, I have to echo what was said before. The 4th Viper source book with less villians (keep Brick). A sample base map. And Storn Cook illos. :) (Did I brown-nose enough Storn? oops wasn't supposed to post this last part to the list. :rolleyes: )

TimS.

[Susano]

Originally posted by Tim
Count me as another NO vote for Viperia.


Or, at least give her the Big Red S. :p

(wait... then Kayli would need gold hair... :rolleyes: )

[GestaltBennie]

Sorry. Viperia stays. That one's not up for a vote. :-)

Though she may not quite be as you envision her.

Scott Bennie

[TechnoViking]

I have always done VIPER different than older version of the Champions Universe.

I want to see an organaztion that uses technology to the extreme, a group willing to die for science, if it may lead to a gain in power (The VIPER folder base from Digital Hero #1 is a good example).

I want people to take a Hunted by VIPER at 8- and not think it is a joke.

I want to see only one snake based villian. Just cause they are called VIPER does not mean all their villians have to be snake based.

I wanted detail VIPER tactical units.

I want lots of gadgets, especially anti-meta gear.

I want to see well designed bases and vehicles.

I want Ripper and Occulan.

I want to give VIPER an overall mission, they should be a big of a threat as almost any villian.

On a side note, people for YEARS have talked about Dr. Destroyer being the true head of VIPER. I say go wild.

When I think of more and will continue to rant :).

Mike

[Lord Liaden]

Since VIPER was one of my favorite 4E sourcebooks, I've had to think a little bit about what I might want to see in the new version that was different from the old one. I can agree with most of the ideas already suggested on this thread. I actually enjoyed the 4E VIPER supervillains and am a little disappointed that their numbers will be so drastically reduced; I understand the reasoning behind it, though. I can always update the gang from the previous edition. :p However, I would request that the supervillains you do retain have a more noticeably international representation. For a supposedly world-spanning organization, 4E VIPER's supervillain cadre was markedly Ameri-centric. That may not be an issue to many American gamers who are after all the majority of your customers, but to some of us outside the States it's notable and lacks credibility.

I guess the areas I'd like to see expanded compared to the old VIPER are twofold: first, I'd like to see more detailed writeups of the non-super leadership of VIPER, both the Nest Leaders and the higher echelons. So many of them were just summaries of personalities with brief game mechanic notes. Since the emphasis of the new book will be more on the organization, these will be the people that the PCs will have more dealings with, so I think it would be helpful to flesh them out more.

The other area I'd like to see more of would be the philosophy and goals of VIPER. I certainly get that they want power, but what would they do with the world if they succeeded in taking it? What are VIPER's long-term objectives and plans? How do the rank-and-file view the organization and their place in it? What is it that draws someone to become a member of VIPER, as opposed to some other criminal group? What does it mean to belong to VIPER that's distinct from belonging to any other villainous super-agency?

However it falls out, I have faith that Messrs Bennie and Long will produce something more than worth the cover price. :cool:

As a point of curiosity: I understand that much of the New Millennium version of the VIPER manuscript was already written at the time that previous management imploded. Have you had to revise a lot to bring it into the new CU continuity?

[Xotl]

I can't emphasize enough how much I want to see the various books of the Champions Universe interact with each other. I don't just want lists of villains and schemes (though those are cool), I want to know what Viperia thinks of Blowtorch and about that time a Demon cell and a Viper nest went to war over a powerful artifact in Toronto. I'd like to see a good section in this book on Viper's relations to each of the major organizations in the Champions world, as well as the major hero and villain teams and solo figures. This is the perfect opportunity to make the universe feel more alive.

I'd also like to see a variety of agents, starting at low-powered Dark Champions range (if not Dark Champions feel) and moving up to bastards like those terrible old Demon agents with the autofire AP rifles, so that in any campaign you've got fitting standard flunkies to play with.

While on the subject of campaign flexibility, I'd also like to see a wide-range of Viper involvement. In addition to their usual taking over the world stuff, I'd also like to see their gambling, drug-running, gun smuggling, common theft and extortion. This way I could easily run them as both a ludicrous MAD or COBRA-type agency, and as a gritty, thoroughly vile organization.

Also, maps for the standard Viper nest structures, and a big section of plot seeds would be nice too.

Rules-wise, I'd like to see a section detailing how Viper responds to people with the various hunteds. For example, it would detail just what "Hunted by Viper 8-" means to Viper, and how much Viper puts into pursuing people of this threat level, vs. the 14- victims. What does Viper surveillance consist of when a character has "Watched by Viper"?

I never got the last book, so pardon me if I'm requesting somethings that were already present.

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
As a point of curiosity: I understand that much of the New Millennium version of the VIPER manuscript was already written at the time that previous management imploded. Have you had to revise a lot to bring it into the new CU continuity?

Not that much, but most of the stuff that I'd written before CNM tanked wasn't world specific. One of the major NPCs linked to the lost world of the CNM universe needs a new home. And Steve will be writing a little more of the world specific sextions than we'd specified on our CNM outlines (which makes a certain amount of sense, given that Steve's got the keys to the campaign world. :-))

Anyway, thanks to everyone for your feedback, please keep it coming. It looks like about 90% of what you've listed is going to be in the book, but you'll never know when someone will suggest something that makes you go "ah!" (Storn's list of questions is certainly something we think about, but it'sgood to have things spelled out explicitly.)

Scott Bennie

[Enforcer84]

Actually, I liked Viperia. I hope she isn't changed too much.
I apologize to her detractors, but the "Original" archetype is sorely underrepresnted in the CU. Love them or hate them they are one of the first things many think of when you say "Superhero".

[assault]

Originally posted by Storn
I want Viper to have more than a US outlook... ...
Gun selling to Kazikstan and East Timor?

Then, give me the hooks where those Viper interests can bump up against player characters and authority interests...


Hmm.

OK, well, yes, definitely do the world outlook thing, because my campaigns aren't set in the US.

The thing that really got me, though, was the thought of Viper selling guns to East Timor. What a great idea!

It works like this: the East Timorese resistence were "good guys" in many people's views, and "terrorists" in others. Yes, they bought guns on the black and grey markets... OBVIOUSLY, in the CU, they would buy them from people like Viper, the Warlord, Argent and all that.

Isn't that cool? The "bad guys" were doing business with "good guys"! So your supers run into a Viper operation, which they might not _want_ to interfere with. But what if something else is going on behind it?

Ethical dilemmas - fun, fun, fun.

Thanks, Storn.

Alan

[zakueins]

Things I'd like to see in a new VIPER book-

1)Scaled groups of agents/supers ranging from "green newbie agents and barely competent metas" to "Dr. Destroyer pays his debts on time, because we go and talk with him-politely", so that your newbie group doesn't have to face off against the most powerful team VIPER has, nor are your 900 pt supers going to be mowing down basic agents in job lots.

2)A basic overview of how VIPER handles things-from your basic bank robbery to taking on a super-human team (eg. a VIPER nest going against the Champions).

3)More idea of VIPER's goals in the metahuman world.

[Jhamin]

Given that the emphasis will be away from Writups, this may not go anywere but...

I would really like to see a strong unified theme in the visual design of Viper superhumans. Even if they aren't on the same teams in the organization they should all recall the Viper agent uniforms. It really emphasises that these are supers in the employee of Viper and not just any bunch of mercs who thought the price was right.

I mean Viper Force 1 was powerful, but could have been any villian team. Viper Force 2 made sure you knew who sent them when they came after you.

[Rechan]

I can give an emphatic Heck Yeah! To all of this. :D

One thing I would defiently like to see, is much akin to the CU's approach to 'The world and supers', breaking it down into countries, then the media and supers, etc etc. But do this with Viper. 'Viper and the Media. Viper and the Business world, the martial world, Viper and China' so on.

The one thing I *dig* so much about the Hero books is that they're so frickin' DETAILED. Gimmie details! :) Gimmie NPCs on a level the PCs would inter-act with. VIPER on a very domestic level, who works for them? Do they strong arm any agents or allies? (Okay, sorry, I run a Dark Champions game, so I'm looking out for MY campaign too ;) )

Yes, how they work with other organizations. Yes yes yes.

[Steve Long]

As a point of curiosity: I understand that much of the New Millennium version of the VIPER manuscript was already written at the time that previous management imploded. Have you had to revise a lot to bring it into the new CU continuity?

To follow up on what Scott's already said: not much. First, it's not all that world-specific. Second, since I already had a lot of the material in hand when I created the new CU, I made sure VIPER in the new CU matched what I wanted VIPER to be based on the draft manuscript.

The biggest similarity: villains. The villains that work for VIPER in the C:TNM setting are generally the ones working for it in the CU, since we already had the character sheets done. We just have to alter their backgrounds a bit, and revise the sheets for 5E, etc.

[death tribble]

From what has been hinted at Freon is going to be in the book. I got that from reading various bits and pieces elsewhere. Published stuff that is.

If you are only doing a dozen villains for the organization, that's fine. Just give us the names of others and we can make them up ourselves.

Keep the elite flying agents.

Some info on who is running Viper perhaps with suggested stats, and this time not a computer AI. Not just the big boss but the well known/mysterious Nest Leaders.

[Talon]

1) Maps; ideally, a map of the nest and its surroundings (so the GM can see how a nest might be concealed/accessed).

2) No "pick one of 8 skills" listings in Package deals (which makes it much harder to run off the cuff).

3) Discussion of how VIPER protects itself from different superpowers (superhero uses Mind Scan to locate an agent and therefore the nest; same for Desol, Clairsentience, Telepathy, etc.).

4) Tips on how the GM can speak with a hiss for most of a session without losing his voice. :)

[BobGreenwade]

OK, time for me to weigh in on this. Some of my favorite bits from the old book include:

1) VIPER-centric campaign ideas. This would probably have to be an appendix in the new book, but it was very idea-generating for me.

2) Brick. He's the perfect classic Champions villain, dating back (IIRC) to the first edition.

3) Cyborgs Inc. This is probably a futile plea, but I do really like these guys. They're just the right mix of cheesy and dangerous to fit into a group originating in Oregon. ;)

4) The Mech-Viper. This is may be another futile plea, given some comments Steve's made about mecha in the Hero Universe, notwithstanding the continuing presence of Minuteman robots. Still, I happen to be a big fan of mecha in any genre -- heck, TUV was originally conceived as The Ultimate Giant Robot. The Mech-Viper was the first example I'd seen of mecha done really right for the superhero genre (for comics, gaming, or anything else).

5) Some of the more unusual weapons in the VIPER catalog: the VR-10 "Fat Lady" is my favorite, but there's always MB-2 "Zowie," SFX-01 "Jack of All Trades," the I-02 "Stealth-2," the GP-01 "Sparrow," and the TC-01 "Slimer."

I also agree with the decision to trim the supervillain content, since VIPER is supposed to be an agency-level enemy with occasional supervillain support. I do think that going down to just a dozen is a little far, though; given the organization's global influence, I think you could get by with as many as twenty.

[SirViss]

VIPER being an international organization, I always like to know where they DON'T have influence and WHY? I find that, sometimes, those give really good plot hooks. :D

[Storn]

After I posted my bit, then read the others... I gotta say I concur with the call of Viper relations outside of itself are important... Viper/Demon, Viper/Mafia, Viper/var. terrorist organizations etc, etc... in the official Champions Universe setting.

It doesn't have to be pages upon pages, but some nod, some plot suggestions

I guess I'm asking for a lot of thought put into this. I'm not interested in the goofy Hydra and Cobra and Kobra again (DC this time). That is easy. If I'm a gm, and want to have that kind of game, I just have lunatic villains in yellow-green outfits running around with energy weapons and that is the kind of campaign it is.

But running a "smart, sophisticated, worthy of a Hunted" Viper is hard. I want as much of that work done for me in the book as humanly possible.

In my black ops campaign, I've been using Viper a bit. I had one Viper base in the Greenland hidden by 10,000 tiny holographic projectors on little robotic spiders to present a plain, normal glacier, ice flow to UNTIL satellites. That one story conciet, allowed me to justify a fairly sophisticated, large (yet abandoned) Viper base to exist. That is the kinda thought I'm expecting. GI Joe always struck me as ridiculous because some mountain would be sporting a giant Cobra structure on a volcano! With no 1/2 assed explanation WHY it wasn't picked up by a freakin' reconnaissance plane, much less the many spy satellites the US alone commands. Then place it in a superhero world, where technology and need would dictate even more "eyes in the skies"... sheesh.

Viper in Neil's RDU is not all that strong in Europe, Raven is... and I've used that fact in my black ops game.... that creates adventures and plots as Viper tries to make inroads in the EU.

Someone said deliniate "where" Viper is not pervasive... I think that is very important too. When the villains are weaker, want something, or are desperate...they make mistakes that call attention to themselves and allow the Heroes to cross paths with those plans.

But Scott, I have complete faith. You asked what you wanted to see, and I'm only responding to that. This is not a diatribe or a lack of faith in your and Steve's abilities.

[TechnoViking]

I would like to see a history of VIPER and VIPER in other genres (Star Hero especially).

Mike

[TheQuestionMan]

All great ideas and sound advice . Makes it difficult to think of what to add .

Of note however is the VIPER supervillain team comments . VIPER Force-2 was the best of all the teams and definitely needs to be redone . Did Tower stick around ? . And which nest aquired the services Dr.Moreau to create Animal-Men ( Snake-men ) agents ? .

I want to see some really well thought out ( your products so far have been ) adventures . Especially an attempt to fullfill VIPER's ultimate goal .

Oh and get Storn to do some of the art too .

Thanks E.

[TechnoViking]

I also think VIPER should uses clones. They found 20 good agents and using bleeding edge technology to clone an army (sounds like a bad movie :)). You ould also make them expire quickly (within an year) so VIPER does not care how dangerous a sitution they put their agents in.

Mike

[Hermit]

Originally posted by TheQuestionMan
VIPER Force-2 was the best of all the teams and definitely needs to be redone .



VIPER Force 2 was definitely the best of the lot. I don't know if Armstrong and crew can be used again, as I heard that he may have gone rogue from VIPER to form Wild Geese? Maybe wrong on that, and it may not be 'official' anyways.

Still, a team with that sort of coordination, leadership and feel would be best for an 'official' VIPER Force.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by Storn


Then, give me the hooks where those Viper interests can bump up against player characters and authority interests... how a cell might collapse under an informant turned Federal witness... how one Nest might betray another...What keeps Viper from taking over the world? What is the checks and balances to keep it underground... or suggestions that a true, one planet gov't is evolving.. and it ain't pretty.... How can I run that?

In terms of the 'ethical dilemmas' point... is Japan going to have Green Viper Liberator? :)



and as always, self-serving me, I want to do some illos!

I always did like your last VIPER cover, where the team leader is directing an Energy Blast at Obisidian, and you can see the shot connecting in the leader's visor reflection...

JG

[JohnTaber]

Hi Gents,

Comments follow. Some folks mentioned these but...

+ Cursory details on some of the Viper bases around the world and in the US. Maybe this information could include rough agent counts and the names of local supers they empoy. Detailed write ups for every super are not critical as we can add them.

+ FYI. I actually don't care how Viper interacts with other Champions agencies. I don't use most of them or the ones I do I modify. I would do only basics here.

+ Agent tactics and fire teams. That stuff in the old write ups made Viper REALLY scary to my players...we like that... ;)

+ Information on various global tactics would be cool.

+ Come up with a cool name for the book! "VIPER" is B-O-R-I-N-G. :D

That is the stuff I can come up with right now. ;)

You're old Viper stuff just rocks so I have no doubt this one will too... :cool:

[Cyberknight]

Like a lot of the other posters here, I rate the prior edition Viper sourcebook as one of the best products in the line, and it's good to know that the Guys (and Gals) in Green will be back.

Things I'd like to see?
1) Fewer metahumans.
I know this bucks a trend, but Viper is (per history) an organization of high-tech agents. Have a few metas around as a 'special forces' unit or an 'enforcer unit', but they shouldn't be the backbone of the organization.

2) More gear options for the agents.
Not just tons of guns (although guns are good), but vehicles, sensor packages, even low-powered combat armor for elite agents. I'd even like to see two 'agent generators'. One would be a 'quick and dirty' one (Pick any three skills from List 1, pick a gun from List 2, etc) for those off-the-cuff runs, and a more detailed one that would let us create more detailed Agents and NCOs.

3) MECHVIPERS :)

4) Sample bases for different environments and scales of operation.

5) Lots of non-combat background information about relationships within Viper, about Viper's relationship with other organizations (including national governments)

6) An art gallery. Devote a few pages to an overview of Viper uniforms, vehicles, and equipment.

7) Something better than the 'virtual chess match with live pawns' as the head of the organization. That was one thing I didn't like about Viper 4th.

8) A "Girls of Viper" Swimsuit issue would be nice. I'm only half-joking about that. Give us a look at the life of a Viper agent from *their* point of view. What *do* they do when they aren't engaged in nefarious plots? Do they have a 'continuing education' program that eventually grooms agents for command positions and / or employment in front companies? Do they have in-house entertainment (thus the GoV-SI) ? Do they follow a military style routine (Up at 0-dark-30, PT, Breakfast, etc..), or do they simply lounge around with beer and cigars?

Looking forward to more of the Lean, Green (And Serpentine) fighting machine!

Cyberknight

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Cyberknight
7) Something better than the 'virtual chess match with live pawns' as the head of the organization. That was one thing I didn't like about Viper 4th.

I enjoyed the AI Supreme Serpent, but the "chess match" motivation, intriguing as it was, made for a rather static meta-plot; VIPER was set up so that it would ideally never ultimately win or ultimately lose. In my own campaign, I gave the Supreme Serpent the motivation of using VIPER to establish on Earth a duplicate of the highly ordered, Utopian society that had existed on its destroyed homeworld. This was the society that Timemaster (from Classic Enemies) was trying to overthrow. When TM discovered just what VIPER was, the snakes gained one of their deadliest enemies. ;)

(I'm considering a similar concept for the leadership of ARGENT.)

One character I'm really hoping will make a comeback and get an expansion in the new VIPER is the Dragon Queen. IMO her backstory and personality were very interesting, but her writeup could have been fleshed out more especially in the area of skills. And the CU can certainly stand a few more female master villains. :)

[Susano]

Originally posted by Cyberknight
6) An art gallery. Devote a few pages to an overview of Viper uniforms, vehicles, and equipment.


OOOHHHH!!!

Yeah, that owuld be great! Like the uniform pages in the 4th ed GAOC, or the UNTIL uniform page in... one of the HERO SYSTEM ALMANACS (all done by Scott Ruggels).

[FogHat]

I enjoy the old book but I'd like to see some additions:

1: A speed suit that isn't a vehicle. Oh yah new rewritten vehicles.

2:I'd like some examples of how they blackmail/brainwash people. (example powers)

3:A typical Viper Spy would nice. How else do they find all those crazy scientists and alike. Is he/she Viper or a hired Head Hunter who doesn't know who he/she is working for.

4:What countries support Viper and why - The local version of the Axis of Evil so to speak.

My two cents.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Hermit
VIPER Force 2 was definitely the best of the lot. I don't know if Armstrong and crew can be used again, as I heard that he may have gone rogue from VIPER to form Wild Geese? Maybe wrong on that, and it may not be 'official' anyways.

Still, a team with that sort of coordination, leadership and feel would be best for an 'official' VIPER Force.

I think that was from Shelly "Author of the PRIMUS E-Book" Mactyre's personal campaign.

Seeing as she kept alot of juicy details from her game on her website & alot of those details later became official in that E-Book I think it is a grey area, but I don't think VF-2 ever officially went rouge.

[assault]

Originally posted by Jhamin
I don't think VF-2 ever officially went rouge.

No, they definitely kept wearing green and yellow makeup... :)

Alan

[winterhawk]

OK, reading all the VF-2 fan mail, I have to admit Armstrong was always one of my favorites. He was always the legitimizer for VIPER in my campaigns. "Man, they got to a Silver Avenger...what isn't VIPER capable of?" So if the author's are tracking votes for Armstrong's inclusion, count me in.

[Lord Liaden]

The membership of VF-2 could be changed without upsetting me much, as long as the strong "team" feeling remained; but I also support Armstrong's continued inclusion. He is a great example of a recurring foe that the heroes can come to admire and sympathize with.

[Redmenace]

Along the lines of Storn's International influence suggestions, Why doesn't Viper take over a former Soviet state or a oil rich but technology poor country?

I'm not neccesarily saying taking by force ala Iraq conquering Kuwait but more of a selling them technology or arms, then sending along technicians and spec. ops to teach the locals how to fight and only afterwards arranging for a military coup that places a Viper friendly dictator on the throne.

I'm thinking of maybe an espionage angle, letting Viper have a "safe house" country that they can flee to and beyond who's borders the heroes or until couldn't follow, overtly any way.

Using Iraq as a model for a rogue state this would allow for money, recruits and training grounds for them, space for factories to build all the wonderful toys that somehow get to out to equip countless nests and maybe some major useful influence like a membership in the UN, all of which could make the rogue state overtly off limits becouse a super human incursion might be taken as an act of war on America's, or whom so ever, part.

Obviously this is a bit too recent and real world for a Silver Age approach but I'd like to see a least an option of some grittier approaches to Heroes preminent enemy agent group.

[ShelleyCM]

Originally posted by Jhamin
I think that was from Shelly "Author of the PRIMUS E-Book" Mactyre's personal campaign.


I know -- I am just SOOOO evil!

;)

But personally, I hope Armstrong shows up in the new VIPER book. Just the mention of his name greatly upsets my husband!

-Shelley

[JmOz]

I would also like to see a couple of pages dedicated to "Splinter Groups", such as RAVEN or maybe the reintroduction of COIL (as a genetic manipulation "arm" of Viper)

[assault]

Originally posted by Redmenace
I'm not neccesarily saying taking by force ala Iraq conquering Kuwait but more of a selling them technology or arms, then sending along technicians and spec. ops to teach the locals how to fight and only afterwards arranging for a military coup that places a Viper friendly dictator on the throne.


Alternatively, don't have the coup...

The government can be "good guys" who need the technology, technicians and advisors if they want to bring their country into the 21st century, and possibly stay independent. If they expel VIPER, their enemies will swallow them up, their economy will be thrown back onto subsistence agriculture, their hospitals and schools will be drained of resources, and even if they maintain their independence, they will probably end up with a new dictator, just like the one they just overthrew.

Of course, if VIPER stays, then, indeed, the corruption it brings will destroy them... It will also bring the hostile attention of PRIMUS and nastier agencies.

They're in a trap. Getting out of it won't be easy.

On a different note, I've been looking through Champions Universe. If you put together a bunch of the seeds in there, there is quite a plausible way to decapitate VIPER.

Unfortunately it involves lots and lots of gorillas.

How many gorillas can you have in a scenario before it becomes unbelievably silly?

Alan

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by assault
How many gorillas can you have in a scenario before it becomes unbelievably silly? It depends on the gorillas -- though if you have a whole platoon of them, I think it would constitute gorilla warfare. :D

[Vondy]

VIPERIA

[Mutant for Hire]

I think everyone else has hit the peg. This source book should be enough to let people run a VIPER campaign, if they really wanted to. There should be plenty on VIPER internal politics, VIPER's position with respect to other groups (heroic and villanous) and how they feel about VIPER.

There should be good reasons why VIPER is in the businesses that it is in, why it is not in other businesses. Why doesn't it take over a nation?

And there should be plenty of behind the scenes stuff. Where does VIPER get its income, equipment, scientists, etc. Yes, some people might think that is going into too much detail, but I'd like to see a villanous organization with real meat to it.

[JmOz]

And it should have a Frustrated Used Car Saleman as the leader...


JUST KIDDING

[Peregrine]

Naw, a frustrated shoe salesman... :)

[Lord Liaden]

How about a frustrated software manufacturer/ android? ;)

[JmOz]

Okay, I know what I was refering to (Cobra Commander), I suspect I know what the second one was (Al Bundy), but Lord Liaden, you got me on that last one

[Haerandir]

Originally posted by JmOz
Okay, I know what I was refering to (Cobra Commander), I suspect I know what the second one was (Al Bundy), but Lord Liaden, you got me on that last one

Bill Gates?

Oh, come on, you don't think he's really human, do you? And he's clearly frustrated about something.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by JmOz
Okay, I know what I was refering to (Cobra Commander), I suspect I know what the second one was (Al Bundy), but Lord Liaden, you got me on that last one

Sorry, inside joke from the original VIPER book (SPOILERS FOLLOWING):

Jefferson Gable, aka the Prime Serpent. Former president of Gablesoft until hostilely taken over and then killed by the Duchess. Recreated as an android by the Supreme Serpent. Everyone thought he was the real leader of VIPER, including himself. Poor cyber-schmuck. :rolleyes:

[Prometheus]

If I had to ask for anything, it would be a strong sense of theme.

The original book was great, but there were times when, faced with a Viper team, my players looked at each other in confusion, "Who are these guys?" For an organization, Viper didn't have much... organization. You don't need to hand out green uniforms to everyone, but everything should have something that makes it uniquely Viper.

In the "fingers crossed" catergory, I'd add that it would be nice to see a solid, memorable, not-necessarily-superpowered (or European) leader in the mix. Viper needs their own Red Skull/Baron Zemo, all written up and ready to use. Sure Styles wasn't bad, but he's no Baron von Stucker.

[tiger]

I've always loved VIPER, they were one of my favorite villain agencies. I nastied them up a bit, before they got their own book, to stop the whipping boy syndrome.

Things I'd like to see:

1) Have to keep the Supreme Serpent. I'd like to see a few options should one want to get away from the AI concept.

2)Updated write ups for the villains in Viper. While I understand the fact that you want to get away from the large amount of villain writeups, I'd still like to see them.

3)Lots and Lots of plot hooks

4)Writeups, or atleast ideas for different nests. I don't figure the nest in LA is the same as in MC. Of course they could get construction on a discount I supose. Pre-fab bases :)

5)Multiple types of agents. I'd like to see several different versions for Viper, and other organizations for that matter. Mech-agents, fliying agents stc..

6)Relations, or the lack there of, with other agencies

7)Vehicles!!! This seemed to be the one thing they should have that they seemed to not have.

8) I'd like this next week please, and a side order of fries!

[Blue]

I think it needs... More snake-themed villains.

Yes, that was my pre-8 a.m. attempt at humor. I'm still getting warmed up.
NCI suggestions: Viper is often taken as a hunted, and given the "NCI" modifier. How about some good examples of how Viper specifically would try to screw up a character's life using NCI. I'm sure they'd do it differently than, say... the FBI or UNTIL.
Viper Specific Vehicles. Yes, I know you've got a book specifically for vehicles, but a few Viper ones would be nice.
Bases. A typical Viper base, and then a couple of "upgrades" so that each time the heroes find a new "nest" it is a little tougher than the last one.
Actually, I think a full-size fold out map like the ones in the Accessory pack would be great. Especially if Viper tends to use the same base design.
A thorough history of viper, including a timeline. After all, not everyone may be running a 21st century campaign. Who have been their leaders through the many eras?
Their structure with regard to succession: Are they a machiavellian stab-your-commander-in-the-back kind of organization or do they take the chain of command seriously?

I hope something in there is a useful suggestion.

[BobGreenwade]

There have been several requests for a VIPER timeline, and this is probably a given. What isn't quite so obvious is to extend the timeline into the future. VIPER will probably still exist in the Cyber Hero period, and possibly further into the future (though I get the definite impression that it no longer exists by the time of the Terran Empire). Some notes on VIPER in the overall Hero Universe timeline would be great. :)

[Susano]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade
There have been several requests for a VIPER timeline, and this is probably a given. What isn't quite so obvious is to extend the timeline into the future. VIPER will probably still exist in the Cyber Hero period...

If it does, I severely doubt it will still be the same group. In fact, i think it would be an interesting idea to have VIPER Inc. in the Cyber Hero period. A sort of monolithic mega-corporation for weapons, weapon tech (vehicles, armor, mecha), and mercenaries. Sort of like GENOM from BUBBLEGUM CRISIS.

[Peregrine]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade
There have been several requests for a VIPER timeline, and this is probably a given. What isn't quite so obvious is to extend the timeline into the future. VIPER will probably still exist in the Cyber Hero period, and possibly further into the future (though I get the definite impression that it no longer exists by the time of the Terran Empire). Some notes on VIPER in the overall Hero Universe timeline would be great. :)

Though there have been hints that VIPER (or some organization inspired thereby) is around in the Champions 3000 setting...

[Peregrine]

Originally posted by JmOz
Okay, I know what I was refering to (Cobra Commander), I suspect I know what the second one was (Al Bundy), but Lord Liaden, you got me on that last one

I missed the Cobra Commander reference (My Joe-fu is weak), but yeah, Ragin' Al Bundy is the reference I was aiming for.

[Hermit]

This may have already been covered, but whether it's a single character, a team, or even an 'Internal Affairs' type department of VIPER; I think there should be someone who troubleshoots for Viper. Who acts as a 'Cleaner' of sorts when the worst has happened. Someone has to make sure when a Nest falls, it doesn't give up too much information to the authorities, ditto for Nest Leaders. This person/group would also handle and ensure 'loyality' as a secret police. Hope I'm making sense.

[Susano]

Originally posted by Hermit
This may have already been covered, but whether it's a single character, a team, or even an 'Internal Affairs' type department of VIPER; I think there should be someone who troubleshoots for Viper. Who acts as a 'Cleaner' of sorts when the worst has happened. Someone has to make sure when a Nest falls, it doesn't give up too much information to the authorities, ditto for Nest Leaders. This person/group would also handle and ensure 'loyality' as a secret police. Hope I'm making sense.

And you can call him Draco! :D

Oh, wait, wrong game world. :p

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Susano
And you can call him Draco! :D

Oh, wait, wrong game world. :p

Yeah yeah yeah... I know I know... Le Femme Leviper and all that ... :p

[Susano]

Originally posted by Hermit
Yeah yeah yeah... I know I know... Le Femme Leviper and all that ... :p

Uhm... you lost me there... or maybe I lost you.

Wait... he'd be played by Jean Reno, right?

[lemming]

Originally posted by Hermit
Yeah yeah yeah... I know I know... Le Femme Leviper and all that ... :p
Hmm, I use Viper in my game though they've been more of a background threat. (Except the time they tried an assault and got severely mauled)

And I just picked up the uncut Le'on, The Professional

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by tiger
I've always loved VIPER, they were one of my favorite villain agencies. I nastied them up a bit, before they got their own book, to stop the whipping boy syndrome.

Things I'd like to see:

1) Have to keep the Supreme Serpent. I'd like to see a few options should one want to get away from the AI concept.

We actually listed options in the 4th Edition book. But while Steve and I haven't decided who the Supreme Serpent is, I'm pretty sure he won't be an AI, a robot, or even a hyper-rintelligent ape (sorry Darren).


3)Lots and Lots of plot hooks.

Well, if you insist.


7)Vehicles!!! This seemed to be the one thing they should have that they seemed to not have.

There were plenty of vehicles in the 4th edition book, But there;'ll be more here.


8) I'd like this next week please, and a side order of fries!


Sorry. The machinations of the snake will only be revealed in the fullness of time. It cannot be iotherwise. :-)

Fries will be available after they finish their... um... reearch. Yeah, that's it, research!

Scott Bennie

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by Hermit
This may have already been covered, but whether it's a single character, a team, or even an 'Internal Affairs' type department of VIPER; I think there should be someone who troubleshoots for Viper. Who acts as a 'Cleaner' of sorts when the worst has happened. Someone has to make sure when a Nest falls, it doesn't give up too much information to the authorities, ditto for Nest Leaders. This person/group would also handle and ensure 'loyality' as a secret police. Hope I'm making sense.

Okay, if Steve agrees, I'm using this one.

Scott Bennie

[lemming]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
But while Steve and I haven't decided who the Supreme Serpent is, I'm pretty sure he won't be an AI, a robot, or even a hyper-rintelligent ape (sorry Darren).
That still leaves open the possibilty of a brain in a bottle! Woo hoo!

[pinecone]

Wait...Viper is NOT ruled by a super smart Gorilla?...that makes no sense at all....I stongly suggest you rethink this....

[assault]

I disagree the idea that VIPER's leader should be a hyper-intelligent gorilla.

I prefer to think of the gorillas as VIPER's ultimate enemy, who will eventually storm VIPER's headquarters, led by Dr. Silverback (and some human supers)...

This will be a result of Dr. Moreau having kidnapped Dr. Silverback's True Love.

The result will be a classic exercise in gorilla warfare, with Dr. Silverback eventually going ape on Moreau.

The human heroes, of course, are left to deal with trivial details like the Supreme Serpent, the horde of serpent mutates and the partial manifestation of the Snake God...

Alan

[Tom McCarthy]

When I think back fondly on the 4th edition book, there were lots of bits that were cool, and other bits that didn't grab me. But to the point, here's what got used...

The agents
The agent tactics
The armory
The vehicles

I think some of the questions above are very good ones.
Why do people join VIPER instead of another organization ?
What are VIPER's goals ? Given enough successes, at what point would they adopt new goals or change direction ?
What scale does VIPER operate on ? Would a bookmaker be a VIPER member, or answer to a VIPER member, or might his boss ?
In CNM, the notion of VIPER internal politics as dangerous and the job of Supreme Serpent changing hands seemed interesting.

I liked VF-2's feel more than VF-1. I didn't like the Supreme Serpent or the Vi-Borgs. I liked Viperia, but she wasn't the right power level for my campaign. I didn't like the Snake Pack enough to use them, but I liked the idea that some of those snake men were actually kind of pathetic specimens. I liked that the assassin (Sheath ?) could actually wound people; it cost lots of points but it was an interesting look at the game mechanics to have wounding effects in a genre where that's rare. I didn't really like most of the solo villains, like Hammerhead, Phaze, Dollmaker or the pothead. I assume the gravity controlling female villain is gone, since Gravitar more than fills that niche.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
Okay, if Steve agrees, I'm using this one.

Scott Bennie
Great!
Wow, I had a useful thought...
there goes my quota for the month ;)

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Hermit
Great!
Wow, I had a useful thought...
there goes my quota for the month ;)

Only two more days and you can have another one. Good thing you save them for the end of the month though. Wouldn't want to peak early.

D

[Agent X]

I want to know why Viper has all that nifty, mass-produced gear and the government doesn't. It is one of the great stumbling blocks in my use of these sorts of organizations.

[Cyberknight]

Originally posted by Agent X
I want to know why Viper has all that nifty, mass-produced gear and the government doesn't. It is one of the great stumbling blocks in my use of these sorts of organizations.

The government actually does have "nifty, mass-produced gear". A CCPD (Campaign City Police Department) SWAT team with M-16's, a couple of M-203's, and a couple of snipers can put up a surprisingly effective showing against VIPER agent teams. If that equipment won't do the trick (and if it did, we wouldn't have comic books!), there's the government's own list organizations (PRIMUS comes to mind). If that's *still* not enough, there's the US military. An Abrams tank isn't a fun thing to fight, even for Viper's high-tech troopers, and it's even less so when it's being escorted / screened by infantry, precision-guided artillery, and close air support.

That's why Viper doesn't 'just take over'. It's easier and cheaper to be the power behind the throne via blackmail and individual intimidation. It's also why Viper tends to fight via "Ambush and Evac"...If they stay around *too* long, that ponderous sledgehammer in olive drab will land on them.

My $0.02US. YMMV

Cyberknight

[Peregrine]

Originally posted by Cyberknight
The government actually does have "nifty, mass-produced gear". A CCPD (Campaign City Police Department) SWAT team with M-16's, a couple of M-203's, and a couple of snipers can put up a surprisingly effective showing against VIPER agent teams. If that equipment won't do the trick (and if it did, we wouldn't have comic books!), there's the government's own list organizations (PRIMUS comes to mind). If that's *still* not enough, there's the US military. An Abrams tank isn't a fun thing to fight, even for Viper's high-tech troopers, and it's even less so when it's being escorted / screened by infantry, precision-guided artillery, and close air support.

That's why Viper doesn't 'just take over'. It's easier and cheaper to be the power behind the throne via blackmail and individual intimidation. It's also why Viper tends to fight via "Ambush and Evac"...If they stay around *too* long, that ponderous sledgehammer in olive drab will land on them.

My $0.02US. YMMV

Cyberknight

Of course, then you have the ex-military Nest Leader who wants to field his own military force, using VIPER vehicles and equipment, but the Army's organization structure...

[Cyberknight]

I don't see a problem with a Viper Nest trying to set up a "Viper Army". It'd certainly give Our Heroes somthing to sweat over, and I have serious doubts about the Viper 'higher ups' letting such a thing come about, for several reasons. (Budgets, manpower, and physical space all pop to mind).

Then again, the 1st Viper Mechanized Infantry Division might be an interesting idea. What would Viper do with it? How did they assemble that many men and vehicles, and train them? (BIG 'conspiracy hook') How would Viper justify the expense? (It's much more profitable to prey on a nation than to rule it. Notice that the Mafia makes a profit, and Uncle Sam runs at a deficit? :) )

Cyberknight

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
Small problem - VIPER builds a force like that to do anything, the US Army would probably find out about it.

Or worse, the US Air Force.

Though anti-tank helicopter forces might raise hell with massed VIPER mecha as well.

There's also the problem of sheer numbers.

Since this is a comic-book reality, there are all sorts of gimmicks you can use to bypass these problems:

Discovery by the US military? Holographic projectors to disguise the construction sites. Or covert computer taps into the satellite surveillance systems to create false images of the sensitive areas.

Anti-tank helicopters? Special flight Suppression gimmicks: net projectiles to entangle rotors, heavy-gravity rays, or metallic particle fog to clog engine air intakes.

Do you mean sheer numbers of opponents? That's what VIPER ultra-tech super weapon equalizers are for.;) How about a focussed EM pulse weapon that fries all the electronics in a modern army's vehicles, targetting systems and communications? Or if you meant sheer numbers of VIPER units, individual Nests could construct their contribution, and those units could link up later.

IIRC, the 4E VIPER sourcebook featured a plan by VIPER to build an army to conquer the newly-liberated but still vulnerable Eastern European countries. Again, in a comic-book reality, this threat can be made credible.

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Discovery by the US military? Holographic projectors to disguise the construction sites. Or covert computer taps into the satellite surveillance systems to create false images of the sensitive areas.

Anti-tank helicopters? Special flight Suppression gimmicks: net projectiles to entangle rotors, heavy-gravity rays, or metallic particle fog to clog engine air intakes.

Do you mean sheer numbers of opponents? That's what VIPER ultra-tech super weapon equalizers are for.;) How about a focussed EM pulse weapon that fries all the electronics in a modern army's vehicles, targetting systems and communications? Or if you meant sheer numbers of VIPER units, individual Nests could construct their contribution, and those units could link up later.

And that's before you even consider the Orbital Mind Control Laser or the Weather Dominator.

[assault]

On the Viper army:

It wouldn't make a lot of sense trying to set up such a thing in New York or Millennium City.

It might make a great deal of sense to set one up in certain parts of Africa, Asia, or Latin America.

How could it be raised? Well, the good old "jungle camp" is traditional. Alternatively, a puppet government might do you some favours. In certain cases, the puppet's own army might change uniforms...

Since Viper is a conspiracy, it's quite likely that any armies they control aren't called "The Viper Army". We've been a bit spoiled by the image of the agents in green and yellow. Most of Viper wouldn't be so obvious, IMHO.

Alan

[Peregrine]

That would depend. In the aforementioned Third World nation under VIPER influence (and, let's face it - if the Colombian drug cartels can do it, a non-incompetent VIPER doesn't even break a sweat in the process) the army might well bear VIPER insignia, as a message to all that VIPER is a force to be reckoned with.

[Enforcer84]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
Ah... the classics. :D

Maybe the brain in the bottle will have an intelligent, talking gorilla as an employee. ;)

The ATOMIC BRAIN!

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Cyberknight
The government actually does have "nifty, mass-produced gear". A CCPD (Campaign City Police Department) SWAT team with M-16's, a couple of M-203's, and a couple of snipers can put up a surprisingly effective showing against VIPER agent teams. If that equipment won't do the trick (and if it did, we wouldn't have comic books!), there's the government's own list organizations (PRIMUS comes to mind). If that's *still* not enough, there's the US military. An Abrams tank isn't a fun thing to fight, even for Viper's high-tech troopers, and it's even less so when it's being escorted / screened by infantry, precision-guided artillery, and close air support.

That's why Viper doesn't 'just take over'. It's easier and cheaper to be the power behind the throne via blackmail and individual intimidation. It's also why Viper tends to fight via "Ambush and Evac"...If they stay around *too* long, that ponderous sledgehammer in olive drab will land on them.

My $0.02US. YMMV

Cyberknight On a battlefield you have a point. But Viper equipment seems more maneuverable and just all around better for city combat and quick strikes. Primus had the Ironguard units and what appeared to be, for the most part, fairly conventional gear beyond that. Viper's not just a paramilitary organization, it is a criminal organization that seems to have technology that police officers and the military would love to have. So, my question IMO still stands. Why do they have all this stuff that I think law enforcement and the military would love to have and don't seem to?

To the point: Why wouldn't a Silver Avenger want to have a personal jet pack or sky cycle?

[Koshka]

I'd like to see more of the "Day in the Life" stuff -- maybe reusing the character of Corporal Mike Potts from the 4E book? Show us why people join VIPER, how they're trained, how you maintain a chain of command when half your underlings would love to take your place.

And tied in with that -- I've always assumed the last thing VIPER would ever be known for is their retirement plans, but how do they deal with agents who can no longer go on missions? Putting someone up against the wall because the Side Effects on that experimental weapon he was assigned left him a paraplegic isn't going to improve morale. Or an even worse case scenario from VIPER's viewpoint, one of their top researchers starts to develop Alzheimers and can't keep track of who's "safe" to talk to, so he's blabbing everything to anyone and anything. Might there be a few "retirement communities" or "assisted living centers" that are completely VIPER-staffed and ex-VIPER inhabited, for those who know too much but were loyal snakes in their active careers?

[Susano]

Originally posted by Koshka
[BAnd tied in with that -- I've always assumed the last thing VIPER would ever be known for is their retirement plans, but how do they deal with agents who can no longer go on missions? Putting someone up against the wall because the Side Effects on that experimental weapon he was assigned left him a paraplegic isn't going to improve morale. Or an even worse case scenario from VIPER's viewpoint, one of their top researchers starts to develop Alzheimers and can't keep track of who's "safe" to talk to, so he's blabbing everything to anyone and anything. Might there be a few "retirement communities" or "assisted living centers" that are completely VIPER-staffed and ex-VIPER inhabited, for those who know too much but were loyal snakes in their active careers? [/B]

Shades of The Village from The Prisoner...

[AnotherSkip]

The Viper Millitary?

naaaah just convince the CIA to make the US do it.

Cheaper and no need for retirement plans!!!!!

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
Small problem - VIPER builds a force like that to do anything, the US Army would probably find out about it.

Or worse, the US Air Force.

Though anti-tank helicopter forces might raise hell with massed VIPER mecha as well.

There's also the problem of sheer numbers.

No one said they would have to attack America with it. There are plenty of countries out there with nothing close to America's firepower. In fact: there are first world countries who'se entire military arsenal has a total value of less than one aircraft carrier.

Viper could shoot for a country we're not interested in and, with the right political climate, avoid a full scale American interdiction (though the CIA might employ supers...). We ignore coups and civil wars all the time.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
How about a focussed EM pulse weapon that fries all the electronics in a modern army's vehicles, targetting systems and communications?

This is why our military equipment (naval vessels, tanks, fighters, etc...) have redundant electronics. We've thought of it. EMP isn't new or high-tech.

What that would do to a civillian area or a local police department, however, is another matter. However, most urban areas have at least one department with a dispatch center that has redundant systems (doesn't help the squad cars much, but you can call the feds), and federal buildings invariably have a redundant comm system.

[Peregrine]

Originally posted by Agent X
On a battlefield you have a point. But Viper equipment seems more maneuverable and just all around better for city combat and quick strikes. Primus had the Ironguard units and what appeared to be, for the most part, fairly conventional gear beyond that. Viper's not just a paramilitary organization, it is a criminal organization that seems to have technology that police officers and the military would love to have. So, my question IMO still stands. Why do they have all this stuff that I think law enforcement and the military would love to have and don't seem to?

To the point: Why wouldn't a Silver Avenger want to have a personal jet pack or sky cycle?

Because VIPER is primarily balanced against UNTIL, not PRIMUS (and UNTIL does have skycycles and such). Not a good answer, but an accurate one, I think.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Peregrine
Because VIPER is primarily balanced against UNTIL, not PRIMUS (and UNTIL does have skycycles and such). Not a good answer, but an accurate one, I think. Sounds about right. That needs changing in the next book. I want a satisfactory explanation why every 1st world country isn't running around with the equivalent of Viper Tech and if someone wants to say Viper has more financial resources I will gag.

[Hermit]

Well, VIPER has more financi... just kidding ;)

I don't know, I can see kind of a hard choice here. Not explaining things like this can make it all the more implausible, but then again... if you spend a whole chapter into the fiscal matters and so on of an organization, it feels like you've been cheated of the cool stuff. This is a super heroic genre after all.

Maybe hints on running VIPER with different Age 'feels' might be a good idea as well. A Golden or Silver Age Viper (Whatever the actual time the game is set in) might be much different from a Bronze or Iron Age one.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Agent X
Sounds about right. That needs changing in the next book. I want a satisfactory explanation why every 1st world country isn't running around with the equivalent of Viper Tech and if someone wants to say Viper has more financial resources I will gag.

Er, New Zealand has a federal budget of 16.9 billion and allots 1.4 billion annually to the NZDF, which has 13,000 personnel and 3.2 billion in military assets (meaning hardware).

The combined resources of the mob families in the US alone, let alone Viper, outpaces the federal budget of NZ.

Bill Gates could underwrite their national budget for three years running, or their military budget for fifty years running.

Actually, with his profit margin he could fund their military without losing a dime on an ongoing basis (the amount of money the man gives to charity annually is mind boggling).

Viper - an international organization with extensive criminal empires could easily outpace a country like NZ, which is in the first world.

Its easy for Americans to lose perspective when a single aircraft carrier costs 4.5 billion.

Consider this: in addition to being able to outpace countries like NZ in military spending Viper doesn't have a territory or people to defend.

Nor do they have to run social programs beyond pension and healthcare benefits. They can dedicate the vast majority of their budget to operations and development.

Go ahead, gag all you want.

[GestaltBennie]

It's the age old problem. Provide more realistic details to a four-color simulation, and you end up making it interesting. Push the genre conventions to its logical conclusions, however, and it breaks.

My feeling is we should try to answer those questions, but not get so wrapped up in the simulation that three years down the road, someone like Mutants and Masterminds will come out with their own organization book and everyone will love it more than VIPER because "VIPER got so bogged down by the petty details that they forgot how much fun it is for superheroes to slug it out with a horde of agents."

My hope is we;'ll find a middle ground, and give the GM enough tools to easily shape the organization the way he wants.

Scott Bennie

[AnotherSkip]

i think a good set of guidelines like suggested above would be nice. almost like a 4 part (one for each color) book from true grit to they are the bad guys! what do I care?

[WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by D-Man
Er, New Zealand has a federal budget of 16.9 billion and allots 1.4 billion annually to the NZDF, which has 13,000 personnel and 3.2 billion in military assets (meaning hardware).

The combined resources of the mob families in the US alone, let alone Viper, outpaces the federal budget of NZ.

Bill Gates could underwrite their national budget for three years running, or their military budget for fifty years running.

Actually, with his profit margin he could fund their military without losing a dime on an ongoing basis (the amount of money the man gives to charity annually is mind boggling).

Viper - an international organization with extensive criminal empires could easily outpace a country like NZ, which is in the first world.

Its easy for Americans to lose perspective when a single aircraft carrier costs 4.5 billion.

Consider this: in addition to being able to outpace countries like NZ in military spending Viper doesn't have a territory or people to defend.

Nor do they have to run social programs beyond pension and healthcare benefits. They can dedicate the vast majority of their budget to operations and development.

Go ahead, gag all you want.

Didja *hafta* use us?
Oh wait. We're the best example by a mile.
This is why when I develop my own supers world, I *will* find a way to increase our population by 2900%, just to get rid of that...
:p

However, NZ isn't the best of examples. We're only an independent nation because
a) The British Empire terminated itself
b) The US doesn't want another state
and
c) We don't like the Australians
:p

Incidently, this is why, when I created the super infrastructure for the ANZ area, I didn't have a govermental superagency. I just gave the superteams serious backing, and had one hero have enough financial power of their to do that kind of thing.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme


However, NZ isn't the best of examples. We're only an independent nation because
a) The British Empire terminated itself
b) The US doesn't want another state
and
c) We don't like the Australians
:p


Better be careful on B... Peter Jackson's beautiful cinematography has a lot of American movie goers going 'oooo... ahhhhh' :)

Besides, ARGENT owns NZ in the Champions Universe... everyone knows that ;)

[lemming]

Originally posted by Agent X
So, my question IMO still stands. Why do they viper have all this stuff that I think law enforcement and the military would love to have and don't seem to?

Well, the way I play this, is that VIPER doesn't have any safeguards for testing their weapons. I think they ship the R&D stuff to their expendable troops and see how it goes. The VIPER troops they want to keep, get the advanced, reliable stuff.

Of course I loved the game Paranioa, so take this with a grain of salt. Anyone want a Cone Rifle? :D

And I think the idea of a VIPER village would be great.

[WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Hermit
Better be careful on B... Peter Jackson's beautiful cinematography has a lot of American movie goers going 'oooo... ahhhhh' :)

Besides, ARGENT owns NZ in the Champions Universe... everyone knows that ;)

It wasn't that much of a joke. :)

Acually, I had an idea...

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Agent X
Sounds about right. That needs changing in the next book. I want a satisfactory explanation why every 1st world country isn't running around with the equivalent of Viper Tech and if someone wants to say Viper has more financial resources I will gag.

Since what you're attempting to do in this case is to work backward from an existing genre convention to formulate a justification for it, any explanation you come up with is likely to have an air of "rationalization."

Still, the most reasonable explanation I've yet seen for this situation is the "Sci-Tech War" postulated by Sean Fannon in his High Tech Enemies supplement: governments, superagent groups and superheroes/villains recognize that the possession of advanced scientific knowledge constitutes real power, and are trying to acquire and control as much of it as possible. The more that technology gets spread around to the general populace, especially in a free society, the more people have access to it and the less strategically valuable it becomes.

Certainly there are precedents in the real world: stealth aircraft, nuclear cannon shells and spy satellite imaging technology are closely guarded secrets, and have not replaced many similar weapons and devices in wider use despite being superior in many ways. It's not too hard to extrapolate this to having PRIMUS, an elite combat unit fighting the most dangerous opponents in the world, armed with blasters and forcefields while the majority of soldiers and police muddle through with slug throwers and Kevlar. VIPER, being itself an entirely secretive organization, already regulates the distribution of its technology very closely. Even then the number of supervillains in the Champions canon who owe their abilities to "appropriating" the best VIPER tech and heading for greener pastures is infamous. :p

Of course this is just a rationalization, which may not work for you. :)

[assault]

Originally posted by Koshka
I've always assumed the last thing VIPER would ever be known for is their retirement plans,

Ahh, well.

Earlier versions of VIPER's history mention that a "labor organizer" was amongst the founding leaders of VIPER. Clearly, VIPER is unionised! :)

OK, it's not the _best_ union, but, hey.

Another view of the matter appeared in an episode of the Simpsons, when Homer was hired by a Bond-style mastermind named Hank Scorpio. Scorpio's organisation seemed to operate on rather New Age corporate principles...

Then there's the Austin Powers films, and so on.

OK, so all of this is silly.

The actual situation, in other than humourous games, would probably vary.

A scientist working for a front corporation might have a "normal" career, in many ways, even if they spent a certain amount of time working on a Death Ray in an underground base. Of course, if they "knew too much", it could be a little unfortunate.

A grunt serving as an Agent in Africa is likely to have a career path resembling that of a Somali or Liberian militiaman.

An agent in the US might spend a bit of time with VIPER, receive a payout, and be allowed to go without too much prejudice, if it can be safely assumed that they didn't know anything beyond what they needed to know. Or they might have to skip town with whatever cash they had got together. Whether or not they are pursued would depend on whether VIPER felt it was necessary. Clearly, anyone with a big mouth would be pursued.

Over all, I would have most of the important bits of VIPER underground and working through front organisations. Most of VIPER wouldn't need to be aware they are members of VIPER.

The bits that did would either be expendable grunts, who would need to be kept in the dark as much as possible, or committed conspirators who know what the price of treachery is.

Or hapless dupes, who can be "retired" with a bullet.

But then, when the Secret Master Plan comes to fruition, only the Secret Masters will be spared...

Maybe working for VIPER isn't such a good idea after all. On the other hand, if you can't stop the Secret Master Plan, why shouldn't you take their money?

Alan

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Since what you're attempting to do in this case is to work backward from an existing genre convention to formulate a justification for it, any explanation you come up with is likely to have an air of "rationalization."

Still, the most reasonable explanation I've yet seen for this situation is the "Sci-Tech War" postulated by Sean Fannon in his High Tech Enemies supplement: governments, superagent groups and superheroes/villains recognize that the possession of advanced scientific knowledge constitutes real power, and are trying to acquire and control as much of it as possible. The more that technology gets spread around to the general populace, especially in a free society, the more people have access to it and the less strategically valuable it becomes.

Certainly there are precedents in the real world: stealth aircraft, nuclear cannon shells and spy satellite imaging technology are closely guarded secrets, and have not replaced many similar weapons and devices in wider use despite being superior in many ways. It's not too hard to extrapolate this to having PRIMUS, an elite combat unit fighting the most dangerous opponents in the world, armed with blasters and forcefields while the majority of soldiers and police muddle through with slug throwers and Kevlar. VIPER, being itself an entirely secretive organization, already regulates the distribution of its technology very closely. Even then the number of supervillains in the Champions canon who owe their abilities to "appropriating" the best VIPER tech and heading for greener pastures is infamous. :p

Of course this is just a rationalization, which may not work for you. :) With a little elaboration it would work for me. I would like it addressed in the book though. I am not that hard to please I just want it covered.

Why, you shaved!

[BoloOfEarth]

I'd like some suggestions on ways to handle mass combat, the VIPER way. Some way to deal with 40-50 agents duking it out with a superhero team, without having to roll 40-50 times every phase, but without fully losing individual agent flavor or weapons variety.

I love VIPER, and have used them in every campaign I've run. The 4th Ed VIPER sourcebook was one of the best, IMO. But it's hard to run scores of agents without bogging down the combat slower than normal.

For sidebars: the flavor bits from the 4E book were great. My personal favorite was the CLOWN punching bags.

Oh, and a list of possible things VIPER (as an acronym) stands for.

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by BoloOfEarth
I'd like some suggestions on ways to handle mass combat, the VIPER way. Some way to deal with 40-50 agents duking it out with a superhero team, without having to roll 40-50 times every phase, but without fully losing individual agent flavor or weapons variety.

I love VIPER, and have used them in every campaign I've run. The 4th Ed VIPER sourcebook was one of the best, IMO. But it's hard to run scores of agents without bogging down the combat slower than normal.

That was the first thing I wrote when I did the initial VIPER draft for CNM two years ago. I consider a good tactics section the biggest thing we missed in the first book.

Scott Bennie

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
Sorry. Viperia stays. That one's not up for a vote. :-)

Though she may not quite be as you envision her.

Scott Bennie

I envision Viperia wielding an "Omega Destruction Rifle", but that's probably just the killer GM in me:D

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Agent X
Why, you shaved!

Yeah, but I think these new contact lenses reflect a little too much glare. ;)

When I noticed that I had accumulated enough posts to qualify for the "Cosmically Powerful" board title, I thought it was time to switch to an avatar who looked more "cosmic."

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Yeah, but I think these new contact lenses reflect a little too much glare. ;)

When I noticed that I had accumulated enough posts to qualify for the "Cosmically Powerful" board title, I thought it was time to switch to an avatar who looked more "cosmic." Well, you picked the right avatar then.

[Cyberknight]

A truly cruel GM would have Viperia not only weilding an Omega Destruction Rifle, but doing it wearing a Battle Bikini [tm]. Who'd notice the rifle? :D

Cyberknight

[Andrew_A]

Who's Viperia? I don't have the 4E book.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Andrew_A
Who's Viperia? I don't have the 4E book.
Think an amoral Supergirl loyal to Viper. For some reason a lot of people didn't like her due to power level, etc... ;)

[Cyberknight]

Viperia's move-throughs were the stuff of legend in one campaign, at least. Particularly when one of our particularly innovative (and underhanded) Martial Artists managed to martial-throw her into the side of a very large building. Oh, the (super) Humanity!

Cyberknight

[misterdeath]

Viperia, queen of the Naked Advantages.

While 'star is correct that she only had a 60 Str, he neglects that she had Autofire: 5, Indirect, 0 End, Affect Desolid, AoE, and I think, Armor Piercing all as Naked Advantages.

So, that was 5 Armor Piercing, AOE, Indirect, Affect Desolid, 12d6 attacks.

999 points of pure goodness.

D

[death tribble]

Cyberknight,

The post about the Battle Bikini and gun on Vipera made me laugh out loud. Thank you very much.
You are officially a bad person.

[death tribble]

On the subject of retirement plans, just look at what they did in the Man from UNCLE television series. Thrush agents got a clock when they retired which blew up and killed them.
Which is why UNCLE never found any old Thrush agents. So theyu schemed a way to get an agent who was on the verge of retirement to betray his employers.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
But... they weren't in a multipower, so they were legal. :D

She paid her points for what she got.

Oh, yeah, I wasn't complaining, I was warning.

"Hey, there's that Viperia chick, heard she doesn't do more than 12 dice of damage."

Wham. Wham. Wham. Wham. Wham. Thud.

D

[megaplayboy]

Y'know, I forgot to mention the scope attachment and underslung Torc grenade* launcher for her Omega Destruction rifle...my bad:D

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
And that's Autofire x5 on everyone in an area.

At 0 End.

Indirect.

::shudder::

Fast bricks are damn scary.

That summarizes why in my campaign she was relegated to a Secret Weapon/Thaw When Needed role. If the heroes ever got too close, the VIPER heirarchy fetched her out of deep freeze, dusted her off, and set her loose of the heroes.

Along those lines, I'd like to see some VIPER protocols or "standards and practices". What does VIPER do when the heat gets to close? How does a nest handle superheroes (in or out of combat)? What happens when an agent turns traitor? I've always imagined a black binder or Nest Leader's Handbook that outlined how to run a nest.

But then again, maybe that's too corporate.

[Agent X]

My character, Thunder Dragon, just blocked her attack and then his counterstrike damage shield was set off. Didn't do much to her but she was so frustrated she focused on him and got hammered from behind by a descending move through. inches of velocity doubled for descent, velocity divided by 3, + STR damage. I believe the character had 30" of flight and a 60 Strength but it has been a long time. That would be, oh, 32 dice.

[Cyberknight]

I *do* hope that Thunder Dragon managed to Dive for Cover...then again, getting a face-full of Vi..err...never mind, I'll go take my meds now, and switch to decaff.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Cyberknight
I *do* hope that Thunder Dragon managed to Dive for Cover...then again, getting a face-full of Vi..err...never mind, I'll go take my meds now, and switch to decaff. Well, I guess the ref didn't use the area effect. Lucky me.:D Yeah, Viperia is a babe. I like Viperia. I think there should be more characters on scale in the game. When I saw that Lightning Bolts were supposed to do 4 to 6 dice of killing damage in 4th Edition I immediately was annoyed that in the description of a basic campaign you couldn't have a character who could throw a bolt of energy equivalent to a high-end lightning bolt. What comic books has everyone else been reading?

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by Prometheus
That summarizes why in my campaign she was relegated to a Secret Weapon/Thaw When Needed role. If the heroes ever got too close, the VIPER heirarchy fetched her out of deep freeze, dusted her off, and set her loose of the heroes.

Which was *precisely* the way she was meant to be handled..

Scott Bennie

[TheQuestionMan]

From what I've read so far Scott it looks like you got a lot of work ahead of you . You also opened the Herophile/Pandors's box . Are you gong to be able to close it ?

I look forward to your updates and teasers . You are going to keep us updated aren't you ?

[Vondy]

Originally posted by WhammeWhamme
Didja *hafta* use us?

b) The US doesn't want another state



Have you asked?

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by TheQuestionMan
From what I've read so far Scott it looks like you got a lot of work ahead of you . You also opened the Herophile/Pandors's box . Are you gong to be able to close it ?

I look forward to your updates and teasers . You are going to keep us updated aren't you ?

I don't want to get into specifics (especially since Steve has the final say on what goes in here), but I'm finishing up the agents chapter right now, and I'm counting over thirty types of agents here, from General Combat Specialists to Underworld Specialists to Snake Cultists to VIPER ninja. There's also at least four special squads, each treated like.supervillains with their very own plot hooks

Over the last year or so, Steve and I have been working out the background of VIPER. No one's really complained about it, but given that the concept of evil agencies have their roots in the pulp genre, VIPER's history lacks the appropriate depth and gravitas. Neo-Nazis and labor organizers? Bah! VIPER should have a more epic stature - a more "pulp" feeling. Hopefully the new history and the identity of the Supreme Serpent will provide it and generate lots of cool story hooks.

How's that for a tease?

I'm pretty confident that what Steve and I will provide will knock the socks off the original book.

Scott Bennie

[Enforcer84]

I'm sold. Gimme.

[Cyberknight]

That's more of a "Capsule Preview" than a tease...now, Viperia in a swimsuit...*that* is a tease...and we're back to the Omega Destruction Rifle and Battle Bikini :)

Seriously...sounds great. Where do I sign up to pre-order?

[Peregrine]

Ohhh yeahhh.... sweet!

[Balok]

Not to pick nits ... but I think the man said over thirty types of agents...

<slinks away>

[Grailknight]

Well if there will be 30 agent types then I guess I won't complain about the reduced number of villains:) Some other things I'd like would be:
1] A Supreme Serpent who part of Viper and motivated by the goals that Viper espouses. The alien computer was a neat concept but it took away from perceived threat IMO. The overall goal of Viper should be the vision of its leader(s).
2] Don't make the Supreme Serpent someone who has appeared elsewhere in the CU. Give me an original with original motivation and background.
3]Focus more on the worldwide scope of Viper and especially how it works in Third World nations. An organization with the resources that 4th Ed Viper possessed would own many of these smaller countries outright and could do so legitimately. (There's a campaign twist for you, Hermit:) ) Viper would then take on rouge nation status on the world stage but would be harder than ever to completely wipe out. Nests would be more like large terrorist cells.
The last Viper supplement was one of best books for 4th Ed so I feel confident that you'll deliver the goods this time as well.

[Lord Mhoram]

Viperia. Cool.

I pretty much echo what has been said... Have enough info to be able to run a Viper campaign and the rest follows from that.

I loved all of the viper agents diary stuff from the first one. Have a lot of that in there, for color and feel. It really helped bring the agents and agency to life.

VF2 is one of the best teams around. I'd love to see them.

And of course I have to drop my two cents in about the surpeme serpent I have always used the idea that it is Freddy Foswell, and his other, more well known, rather comedic persona is a dodge to keep people unbalanced, and a way to get close to the heroes to get info he would never get any other means.

[Scott Destroyer]

Hello,

Hmm, seems I'm getting into this thread a bit late, but,


Originally Posted by AgentX:
I want to know why Viper has all that nifty, mass-produced gear and the government doesn't. It is one of the great stumbling blocks in my use of these sorts of organizations.

Here is the real answer to your question:

Massive, politically influenced weapons-procurement bureaucracy.

If you look at some of the fiascos that have gone on in American weapons procurement, you'll think it a wonder that the United States has any weapons at all.

Look at the fairly recent Advanced Combat Rifle project, an attempt at finding a replacement for the aging M-16 series of rifles (which has a ridiculous and convoluted development and procurement history of its own). Even caseless ammunition - heck, even plastic-cased ammunition - is too radical for the bureaucracies. Do you really think they'd go for something as sci-fi as beam weapons, especially since they're not really much more effective than current weapons (2d6 Killing Damage, with Autofire, for a $500 M-16, vs. 10d6 Normal for a VIPER blast rifle)? Even the "high-tech" new OICW (an over-complex, overpriced, overweight pipe dream, in my opinion) is an ordinary .223 assault rifle with a whiz-bang grenade launcher stuck on top of it.

And then there's the political side of it. The trials that selected the U. S. military's new 9mm pistol dragged on years longer than necessary because one designer had political clout, while the trial winner, a foreign design, didn't. Re-tests were ordered again and again, in the hope of exposing some flaw in the foreign design. Only when it became undeniably obvious to all that the American design was inferior was the foreign design adopted as the M9.

These struggles only become fiercer as the items procured rise in price. The MBT-70 tank with its advanced Shillelagh gun/missile system, the XB-70 Valkyrie bomber, various mobile ICBM projects, the A-12 carrier-borne stealth attack fighter, and most recently the Crusader artillery system - all had lots of technological potential, but not enough political pull. There are constant whisperings that a certain fighter was judged a winner of a fly-off because its manufacturer was located in the state of the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, or that certain submarines continue to be built only to preserve shipyard jobs in the state of another influential Senator. Every American competitor for every project has its own patron Congressman or Defense Department official, and, opposed to them all, there are plenty of dovish politicians who think that America already has more than enough weapons, and that these will suffice indefinitely no matter how much the state of the technological art advances beyond them.

Other first world countries are just about as bad. See L85 rifle (UK), Stingray lightweight torpedo (UK), Rubis-class submarines (France), Rafale fighter (France), T-64 Tank (Russia), et multiple cetera.

These sorts of stories, and MANY others like them, are the sort of thing that make the limited usage of exotic super-tech weapons one of the most believable aspects of superhero universes to me.


Originally Posted by AgentX:
To the point: Why wouldn't a Silver Avenger want to have a personal jet pack or sky cycle?

They probably would. And I'm sure if he went and got one with his own money, he'd probably be allowed to use it on the job. But putting it in the annual Budget Request...well, if we give him one, all the other Silver Avengers will want one. And for procurement on that scale we'll need a Request for Proposals, and trials among those who respond, and...well, you get the idea. Much quicker and easier just to make arrangements with the local cops for rides on their helicopter when you need one.

Hope this helps! :)

[kirakane]

I would like to see options and guidlines to try to make agent fights more streamlined and faster to run. And religating agents back to the support role that comic books give agents. Every time I see an agent fight these days in Champions I know its going to be long and tedious and boring on several levels as the heros try to wade through 5 times their number in agents. All mainly because agents become one Giant Killer Amoeba with 100+ actions per turn and 75% damage reduction and 1/2 your DCV with an RSR:Teamwork.

Agents from Hydra or UNIGang don't dominate the battle field in comics. Thier supervillians (the people with personality) do, but the "agent battle" often only takes only a panel or two to resolve. And in general you have think poorly of heroes that are removed by the nameless, faceless, horde of goons.

[TheQuestionMan]

Yeeesss , that was a tease . Looking forward to spending my money on this one for sure . I hope to see lots of Vehicles , Robots , and Bases ... ooooh yeeeh !!!

What else do we have to look forward to ? . The Agent Diaries are a great idea . More , more more ..

VIPER Force-2 ROCKED .

[Peregrine]

The VIPER ninja wouldn't happen to be practicioners of Mist Viper Taijutsu from UMA, would they?

[tiger]

Looking forward to the book. I always loved Viper, although I got away from the AI computer theory. I place someone in charge of VIPER behind the scenes.

Looking forward to see what all you've done to improve them, the multipule agent type alone is a great start.

[Kid Chaos]

I'll say this I've known Scott for a long time and even during the periods where I didn't talk to him I've nothing but respect for his ability. His name on the book assures I'll buy it.

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by Peregrine
The VIPER ninja wouldn't happen to be practicioners of Mist Viper Taijutsu from UMA, would they?

No.I had in mind a martial art that was more of a combination of grappling and striking techniques, so there's a new one in the book. But Steve's the master of Hero martial arts (as well as the owner of the ccmpany), so what he says goes. :-)

Scott Bennie

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by tiger
Looking forward to the book. I always loved Viper, although I got away from the AI computer theory. I place someone in charge of VIPER behind the scenes. Maybe the AI was programmed by a genetically altered lab mouse.... ;)

[tiger]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade
Maybe the AI was programmed by a genetically altered lab mouse.... ;)

Nah!...I have a far sicker mind than that

Another word for Supreme is?

A type of serpent is?

Put them together and......

[Peregrine]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
No.I had in mind a martial art that was more of a combination of grappling and striking techniques, so there's a new one in the book. But Steve's the master of Hero martial arts (as well as the owner of the ccmpany), so what he says goes. :-)

Scott Bennie

*shrug* If the final product says 'no', I can always modify for my own campaigns... :)

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
No.I had in mind a martial art that was more of a combination of grappling and striking techniques, so there's a new one in the book. But Steve's the master of Hero martial arts (as well as the owner of the ccmpany), so what he says goes. :-)

Scott Bennie

King Cobra's Coil organization from Champions Presents II had a unique martial art based on snake's movements. Scott, will the maneuvers in your art have evocatively serpentine names like that one did? :)

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
King Cobra's Coil organization from Champions Presents II had a unique martial art based on snake's movements. Scott, will the maneuvers in your art have evocatively serpentine names like that one did? :)

Yep. The maneuvers all have nice, snaky names.

Scott Bennie

[GestaltBennie]

Just a bit of an update.

I'm finishing up my sections and should be turning over my draft to Steve tomorrow. I've been looking through the thread and bolstering my sections based on your feedback. I can't wait to see what the playetesters do with it (aside from correcting my horrible Bennie math) I think it's turning out to be a pretty cool book. Thanks for your help and ideas!

Scott Bennie

[Monolith]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
I can't wait to see what the playetesters do with it (aside from correcting my horrible Bennie math)
My whole purpose in life is to correct everyone's horrible math. :)

Great news Scott! I am looking forward to the book. Now take a 4 day break and then start working on Villainy Amok. :)

[Twilight]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade
Maybe the AI was programmed by a genetically altered lab mouse.... ;)

No no no you silly boy, the genetically altered lab mouse runs ARGENT, everybody knows that. :D

[TheQuestionMan]

Envy is a terrible thing . The desire to be apart of a Champions sourcebook like VIPER . Well I'll wait and read the updates or fish for them . Thanks for letting us contribute and I hope this kind of thing becomes offical policy for all Hero Games products .

Thanks Bennie and Steve .