Having a painful movement

[Sean Waters]

No: not that.

I have a character who is a teleporter and wants to be able to grab and TP someone and, a la Nightcrawler, can stun the people he teleports.

I have a TP, I have a NND EB linked to it....but that does not really work:

First off the teleport (in fact any kind of movement) others with you rules need a little clarification. I understand that to teleport a character you need to grab them first. I’m assuming that you can then teleport them immediately without further rolls: is this right? I mean, you wouldn’t normally be able to move until your next phase: can you grab and teleport in a single phase? Is that a grab-by? If you grab this phase do you have to make another attack roll next phase to hold on before you can move (after all you would if you wanted to exert a power or damage against the target).

OK.

Next problem: NND attack is going to be in an EC (as the damage is a direct manifestation of the ability to teleport it seemed logical), but even if it was not, and was, say, linked, how would you attack? I mean the NND needs an attack roll: it is not like a side effect, an automatic consequence. So you need to make an attack roll even though the target is grabbed and coming with you – I can’t see any way to make the damage automatic.

If you want to TP with the (still grabbed) target on another phase is that a MPA (grab and NND) and what if the attack roll fails? Do you TP, or just stay where you are (which could be a bit dangerous) or do you TP and take them with you but, for some reason, they don’t take damage?

What I WANT is:

1. Grab target.
2. Teleport with target.
3. Target takes damage from teleporting.

Sorry, it is just that my brain is melting….ore than usual....

[Supreme Serpent]

Next problem: NND attack is going to be in an EC (as the damage is a direct manifestation of the ability to teleport it seemed logical), but even if it was not, and was, say, linked, how would you attack? I mean the NND needs an attack roll: it is not like a side effect, an automatic consequence. So you need to make an attack roll even though the target is grabbed and coming with you – I can’t see any way to make the damage automatic.


For this part, I would think you could perhaps set it up as a damage shield with additional "only when teleporting" limits.

[Sean Waters]

For this part, I would think you could perhaps set it up as a damage shield with additional "only when teleporting" limits.

Hmm. That's going to make an already limited utility attack simply not worth it: apart from some lowish damage martial arts, this is the only attack power the character has. Add in damage shield to a 60 point power and it is going to wind up doing about 3d6: even grabbing an opponent is risky as there is no good reason for the telporter to be a strong character. It is going to take 4 or 5 jaunts to take down most opponents. I agree that works but if that is the only way it will work, I'm going to have to be sad.

[CrosshairCollie]

Here's a whacked idea.

The bad news is, this would require you to wait a phase before using the NND attack, so I'd advise some Martial Arts with Martial Grab to improve your chances of hanging on.

Buy the NND as a straight attack Only Vs Grabbed Target, and link some teleport to the NND (or, possibly, you might get away with a side effect, but I'm not sure how kosher it would be).

[prestidigitator]

Seems pretty easy to me. You have a Grab and you have a Usable as Attack Teleport (and maybe also your NND attack; whatever). Just do a Multiple Power Attack with those two (or three with the NND). Buy the UAA Teleport's mass up (probably both through the UAA Advantage and through Teleport's mechanism) and you are simply going along for the ride via your Grab (normally if you teleport you can take someone else along, so why can't you take yourself along if you are controlling the teleport on someone else?).

[Sean Waters]

Seems pretty easy to me. You have a Grab and you have a Usable as Attack Teleport (and maybe also your NND attack; whatever). Just do a Multiple Power Attack with those two (or three with the NND). Buy the UAA Teleport's mass up (probably both through the UAA Advantage and through Teleport's mechanism) and you are simply going along for the ride via your Grab (normally if you teleport you can take someone else along, so why can't you take yourself along if you are controlling the teleport on someone else?).


The character can not TP the target without going along, and you don't need UAA for that (like you wouldn't need it to run with a character you have grabbed).

The thing is, to my mind, if you successfully grab, you then have the problem: can't move this phase. If the target remains successfully grabbed next phase I don't think that they have any choice about coming along with you: the problem is what do you need to do to apply the damage, and more tot he point what happens if you 'miss'.

DS has been suggested although a cheaper way might be a selective AE (hex) - but that still substantially reduces the power of the attack for using it in a more limtied way. I could just say 'sod it' and have a much higher AP for the attack, but I'm trying to see if there is another solution first.

The other question I have is this: do you need to keep making grab attack rolls each phase to TP with the target, or is simply maintaining the hold enough?

[Sean Waters]

Another interesting point, while on-topic: can you grab-by with teleport?

[prestidigitator]

The character can not TP the target without going along, and you don't need UAA for that (like you wouldn't need it to run with a character you have grabbed).
Ah, but you cannot do a Multiple Power Attack with a normal Movement Power, nor can you move after your attack. So you need the UAA in order to do the MPA I mentioned. With that, it all becomes very possible. If you have to go along, that is probably worth a small Limitation on the UAA TP (-1/4 or possibly as high as -1/2).

[prestidigitator]

Another interesting point, while on-topic: can you grab-by with teleport?
I don't think you can officially. You certainly can't do a Move By or Move Through. I actually allow all of those maneuvers (with some restrictions), but that is very much a house rule.

[Labrat]

Does it effect everyone who he teleports? Friend and foe?

If it can be turned on and off then maybe you can take two teleports, one with Side Effects: automatically happens and doesn't affect the user. It might be expensive... I'm not sure how many dice of NND damage you can get from the 'Major' side effect off hand either.

Limited help, I know.

Can you take added SPD just for Teleport Tricks? Maybe that's munchkiny, but I'd consider it. Added STR for Grab (Nightcrawler used his whole body and tail to hold onto his victims from behind). And don't forget to boost the Teleport Mass (x2 at least) so you can get away with the TP in the first place.

[gamerz123]

For this part, I would think you could perhaps set it up as a damage shield with additional "only when teleporting" limits.

At a very quick glance, I'd do it that way, but apply the teleport aspect as a "trigger" instead of an "only when"

[Sean Waters]

Ah, but you cannot do a Multiple Power Attack with a normal Movement Power, nor can you move after your attack. So you need the UAA in order to do the MPA I mentioned. With that, it all becomes very possible. If you have to go along, that is probably worth a small Limitation on the UAA TP (-1/4 or possibly as high as -1/2).


Good thinking: I can see that working you have to buy a UAA TP that requires a grab and (as you can't use UAA simultaneously) some linked TP of your own to go with, and then you do that as a MPA with the NND. Well it accomplishes the primary aim: avoiding the NND costing a lot more or being a lot less powerful.

It is unfortunate thoug that there is not a simpler way to do this. If there is I can't see it :(

[Sean Waters]

At a very quick glance, I'd do it that way, but apply the teleport aspect as a "trigger" instead of an "only when"

Nice idea but the trouble is you'd have to do a MPA grab and NND....and then the TP kicks in, moving the both of you. Not bad....if you set the trigger condition right you could TP if the grab succeeded or not, so you either take a damaged opponent or get the hell out of Dodge.

Yes: definite possibiilities: thanks.

[Sean Waters]

I don't think you can officially. You certainly can't do a Move By or Move Through. I actually allow all of those maneuvers (with some restrictions), but that is very much a house rule.

I allow those manouvres, but with no velocity damage, generally...Although you are not supposed to. The book appears to be silent on grab by though (it DOES note that it is like a combination of grab and moveby so maybe that is a 'No')

[Sean Waters]

Does it effect everyone who he teleports? Friend and foe?

If it can be turned on and off then maybe you can take two teleports, one with Side Effects: automatically happens and doesn't affect the user. It might be expensive... I'm not sure how many dice of NND damage you can get from the 'Major' side effect off hand either.

Limited help, I know.

Can you take added SPD just for Teleport Tricks? Maybe that's munchkiny, but I'd consider it. Added STR for Grab (Nightcrawler used his whole body and tail to hold onto his victims from behind). And don't forget to boost the Teleport Mass (x2 at least) so you can get away with the TP in the first place.


I'm unhappy about doing the damage with side effects as this is a main and major attack; seems I should be paying for it, not getting a cost break :whistle:

I like the extra strength explanation though: I'd vaguely considered martial arts of some sort: this works as well or better :thumbup:

[Vanguard00]

This might be a silly question, but why can't you just buy a compound power: TP with the Usable as Attack advantage coupled with a no-range NND limited to person teleported only (say a -1/2 limitation)? Wouldn't that work and do what you want? Might get expensive, but it probably should be.

[prestidigitator]

Good thinking: I can see that working you have to buy a UAA TP that requires a grab and (as you can't use UAA simultaneously) some linked TP of your own to go with, and then you do that as a MPA with the NND. Well it accomplishes the primary aim: avoiding the NND costing a lot more or being a lot less powerful.

It is unfortunate thoug that there is not a simpler way to do this. If there is I can't see it :(
You can't use UAA simultaneously, but Teleport itself allows more than the character to be teleported, and if the Teleport is being used on someone else then why can't you be the extra weight being teleported (you still control the parameters of the Teleport, remember)?

[prestidigitator]

This might be a silly question, but why can't you just buy a compound power: TP with the Usable as Attack advantage coupled with a no-range NND limited to person teleported only (say a -1/2 limitation)? Wouldn't that work and do what you want? Might get expensive, but it probably should be.
That's exactly what I am suggesting. :)

[Sean Waters]

This might be a silly question, but why can't you just buy a compound power: TP with the Usable as Attack advantage coupled with a no-range NND limited to person teleported only (say a -1/2 limitation)? Wouldn't that work and do what you want? Might get expensive, but it probably should be.


You could although originally I was trying to do it without UAA as it is not generally needed for this type of 'grab and move', so long as you are going along too (just as you wouldn't need it to grab someone and fly off with them), and UAA makes things a lot ore expensive.

[Vanguard00]

You could although originally I was trying to do it without UAA as it is not generally needed for this type of 'grab and move', so long as you are going along too (just as you wouldn't need it to grab someone and fly off with them), and UAA makes things a lot ore expensive.
Understood, but how else would you simulate teleporting someone (and with someone) some distance and causing them damage? The rules specifically state that Teleportation cannot be used against an unwilling opponent unless bought UAA.

No offense, but working it 'round and 'round like this makes it sound like you're just trying to get it cheaper than it's supposed to be.

[Vanguard00]

Hrm. Just read the UAA rules again, and the second-to-last sentence is:
[quyote]A UAA attack is only usable as an attack -- the character cannot use it himself for its normal purpose.[/quote]

Egads, you'd have to buy a compound power: TP for you, TP UAA, and an NND. Both TPs could use a limitation like "same distance as target only, -1/4" or something, but yeah, yer right. That's getting pretty darn expensive if it's going to be remotely effective.

[Sean Waters]

Understood, but how else would you simulate teleporting someone (and with someone) some distance and causing them damage? The rules specifically state that Teleportation cannot be used against an unwilling opponent unless bought UAA.

No offense, but working it 'round and 'round like this makes it sound like you're just trying to get it cheaper than it's supposed to be.


If you check the TP power description you can TP an unwilling tagrget if you go along with them - you only need UAA if you are sending them off on their own :) (Took me a while to work out why; TP is just a movement power and you can move with someone you have grabbed and controlled normally)

[Vanguard00]

If you check the TP power description you can TP an unwilling tagrget if you go along with them - you only need UAA if you are sending them off on their own :) (Took me a while to work out why; TP is just a movement power and you can move with someone you have grabbed and controlled normally)
Aah. Um, I knew that. ahem

Well, then, back to the drawing board...

[schir1964]

Would a Naked Power Modifier help this out any?

- Christopher Mullins

[Labrat]

I'm unhappy about doing the damage with side effects as this is a main and major attack; seems I should be paying for it, not getting a cost break :whistle:

That's where I was starting to go with the 'affects friend and foe' question. Otherwise, you're right, it would be munchkiny to get a cost break for an attack. However, if you couldn't descriminate, you might use that to your advantage once in a while.

In this version, it doesn't cost anything extra but it's indiscriminant. Even the allies you 'port will take damage (it's Stunning only in this case). As a GM I wouldn't allow another 'safe' TP to be bought as well in this case. As a matter of fact, I don't think I would allow this at all, but at least this is what I was considering:

Bamf-ing Strain: Teleportation 10", x2 Increased Mass, Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act, Side Effect only affects the recipient of the benefits of the Power; +0)

[Sean Waters]

Would a Naked Power Modifier help this out any?

- Christopher Mullins


Yes, we could all point at it and laugh at its discomfort and embarassment, which would at least take our minds off this problem :)

Which one were you thinking of, mate?

[Vanguard00]

Okay, if TP is usable as-is, then why not simply create a Linked Damage Shield NND (defense is Teleportation or Extradimensional powers)? You could get a 5d6 NND for 29 pts., or an 8d6 attack for 47 pts. Inside a framework it should be cheap enough to make it effective. Assuming they're not both in frameworks, that is.

[actingkeith]

I think I fall into the camp of buying TPort with room for two, linked somehow with the NND EB (both with similar Act Pts). The Grab would just be a Special Effect of the TPort. After BAMPHing, the target would be released (ie not affected by the 'Grab'), Which could get hostile if you teleported straight up, stunned the guy, and let him go...

Follow the rules for teleporting an unwilling victim (require a single attack roll for the No Rnage NND and the teleport) and I'd call that pretty fair.

It's probably not the most comprehensive solution, but it's simple and it follows the spirit of what you're trying to accomplish.

Peace,

-k

[schir1964]

Yes, we could all point at it and laugh at its discomfort and embarassment, which would at least take our minds off this problem :)

Which one were you thinking of, mate?
Well, if you make the UAA a Naked Power Advantage for Teleportation, it would become a power unto itself that additional modifiers could then be applied.

Don't know if that would help, but just an idea.

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Hrm. Just read the UAA rules again, and the second-to-last sentence is:

A UAA attack is only usable as an attack -- the character cannot use it himself for its normal purpose.
Ah, but if you buy a UAA Teleport and ride along by Grabbing the target, you are not using it for its normal purpose. You cannot just Teleport yourself without the target. True if this character is a general teleporter you might have to buy another TP for use at times other than the attack, though.

[prestidigitator]

If you check the TP power description you can TP an unwilling tagrget if you go along with them - you only need UAA if you are sending them off on their own :) (Took me a while to work out why; TP is just a movement power and you can move with someone you have grabbed and controlled normally)
Again, though, you will officially need mutliple Phases and multiple attack rolls. Teleport is Movement Power so you technically cannot use it in a Multiple Power Attack or after you Grab someone. The GM can make exceptions, sure, but going the UAA TP with extra mass route should provide a completely (or so close that almost any GM will likely accept it) legal way to do this according to the official rules. One Attack Action, one attack roll (for the Multiple Power Attack with Grab, UAA TP, and the NND attack), and even possible to make a full Teleport after a normal Half Move (see Steve's recent ruling about UAA Movement Powers (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42540); answer #1).

[KA.]

My answer depends on whether you want to damage the opponent, or move them somewhere and damage them.

If you just want to damage them, why not just buy whatever attack you want with No Range (NND, EB, HTH).

Half-move Teleport to them, and use your attack.

If you hit, then the SFX are that you 'grabbed them and Teleported with them', back to the same place they were originally standing.

If you want them to 'move', you could just choose an attack that Does Knockback (either normally or by buying that Advantage for the NND) and the SFX of the knockback would be 'that is where they landed' when I let go.

If you want to say you Teleport with them a bunch of times, buy the attack with Autofire.

KA.

[prestidigitator]

If you want them to 'move', you could just choose an attack that Does Knockback (either normally or by buying that Advantage for the NND) and the SFX of the knockback would be 'that is where they landed' when I let go.
Weird...interesting...at teleport option might actually be a Limitation on Knockback, as the KB itself wouldn't cause damage (no velocity). It might plunge the target past physical obstacles, which could be either a bonus or a penalty. :think:

[Greg]

I didn't want to start a whole new topic and this is sort of in the same vein. I have a player who has a teleportation attack:

Banishment: Teleportation 1",x4 Mass, Megascale (1"=1km), Ranged, Usable as an attack

Obviously this can be severly abused. Since you've all thought about the repurcussions of teleporting someone somplace they don't want to go, give me some ideas on keeping this power under control. I've yet to have him select which "common defenses" need apply, but I'm thinking Power Defense and Teleportation and would like 1 more. It hasn't even come up in game yet, but I don't necessarily want to veto it without taking a little time to make it reasonable.

[Zeropoint]

I cannot look at this thread without thinking that it should be about either kidney stones or the results of a jalapeno-eating contest.

[David Johnston]

Again, though, you will officially need mutliple Phases and multiple attack rolls. Teleport is Movement Power so you technically cannot use it in a Multiple Power Attack or after you Grab someone.


But you can move on your next phase after you Grab someone, yes?

[Robyn]

No: not that.

Not a Side Effect to movement that makes the PC take 1 Stun cumulative for every 1" they move?

Oh well.

[Robyn]

Here's a way of "doing it" (not sure at this point in the thread exactly what we're "doing", though, but anyway :)) that should be "fixed":

Teleport, AOE 1 Hex (everything in the Hex goes automatically, no attack roll).

Of course, this just means you can use it to rip out a chunk of hull from the middle of a submarine . . .

[David Johnston]

Here's a way of "doing it" (not sure at this point in the thread exactly what we're "doing", though, but anyway :)) that should be "fixed":

Teleport, AOE 1 Hex (everything in the Hex goes automatically, no attack roll).

Of course, this just means you can use it to rip out a chunk of hull from the middle of a submarine . . .

No, objects larger than the affected area surely wouldn't move.

[Robyn]

No, objects larger than the affected area surely wouldn't move.

So I can't teleport someone's heart to me and eat it right in front of them, then? Darn ;)

But hey, what if I'm teleporting an object from their pocket? It isn't part of them, right?

[Fenixcrest]

I could see something like "Violent Aportation", where you teleport pieces of somebody away from them as a KA. USPD has some stuff like that. *looks*
Oof, yeah. There's some really nasty ones there. Blinding somebody by teleporting their eyes from their sockets, teleporting things into the enemy's body (KA), Energy Blast NND's defined as repetitive aportation.
I'd say for your maneuver, do the NND Energy Blast, no range(-1/2), only works on targets that you have in a grab (-1/4).

[Threnody]

If you check the TP power description you can TP an unwilling tagrget if you go along with them - you only need UAA if you are sending them off on their own :) (Took me a while to work out why; TP is just a movement power and you can move with someone you have grabbed and controlled normally)

Page 149 says "If he wishes to Teleport other people (or inanimate objects) without going along with them himself, he must buy his Teleportation with the Usable As Attack Advantage." Page 150 (Increased Mass) says "If the additional mass is additional persons, those persons have to want to be Teleported; involuntarily Teleporting someone requires the Usable As Attack Advantage."

Looks to me like you mistook one of the times you gotta have Usable As Attack for the only time you gotta. ;)

I'd do it:
#1 Teleport ___"
#2 Teleport ___", UAA, Linked to #1, Side Effect (Major: _d6 EB NND, Side Effect only affects recipient of power, Side Effect always happens; -1/2)
#3 Naked Adv.: Trigger, only for #1 and #2, triggered by successful Grab and intention to "BAMF" the Grabbed person.

OR
#1 Teleport ___"
#2 Teleport ___", x2 mass, UAA, Side Effect (Major: _d6 EB NND, Side Effect only affects recipient of power, Side Effect always happens; -1/2), Trigger, triggered by successful Grab and intention to "BAMF" the Grabbed person.

The second way, there's no connection between the two Teleports. #1 is so he can go, #2 is only for taking and hurting.

Your GM might not like the "intention to BAMF" part of the Trigger. The first way that's no prob cause it's a seperate power so you can not use it if you want to only Grab. The second way it's a prob. cause being Triggered it'll happen with every Grab.

[Threnody]

Here's a way of "doing it" (not sure at this point in the thread exactly what we're "doing", though, but anyway :)) that should be "fixed":

Teleport, AOE 1 Hex (everything in the Hex goes automatically, no attack roll).

Of course, this just means you can use it to rip out a chunk of hull from the middle of a submarine . . .

Page 149 says "When teleporting other persons and objects, the Teleporter must Teleport the whole person or object; he cannot, for example, Teleport a person but not his armor, or only half a dragon."

So your plan to (mis)use a Power to do another Power's work fails. :thumbdown

[Robyn]

Page 149 says "When teleporting other persons and objects, the Teleporter must Teleport the whole person or object; he cannot, for example, Teleport a person but not his armor, or only half a dragon."

So your plan to (mis)use a Power to do another Power's work fails. :thumbdown

We can't do this but there's nothing to stop us from Transforming an entire bay into steam and letting all the little boats with their little people fall down?

:nonp: Something seems terribly wrong with all that.

[Threnody]

I didn't want to start a whole new topic and this is sort of in the same vein. I have a player who has a teleportation attack:

Banishment: Teleportation 1",x4 Mass, Megascale (1"=1km), Ranged, Usable as an attack

Obviously this can be severly abused. Since you've all thought about the repurcussions of teleporting someone somplace they don't want to go, give me some ideas on keeping this power under control. I've yet to have him select which "common defenses" need apply, but I'm thinking Power Defense and Teleportation and would like 1 more. It hasn't even come up in game yet, but I don't necessarily want to veto it without taking a little time to make it reasonable.

Other "common defense": Mental Defense? Extra-D Move? Both?

Limit to 1 or 2 Charges so he doesn't use it on every enemy.

Give it a Fixed Location (city jail, lockup back at the Base, etc.), with "Only to Fixed Location." Needs more inches of Teleport, or up the MegaScale to 10km. This is aka "Go Directly To Jail." :winkgrin:

If it has to follow a Grab and isn't Triggered, he's gotta hang onto the enemy for a Phase.

[prestidigitator]

Hmm. I just read a couple of days ago an answer in the FAQ under Teleport where Steve mentions that Full Move maneuvers may be possible with Teleport at the GM's discretion, but there would never be any velocity damage added. So maybe this can be handled with just a Grab By. It just may not work with all GMs (I'll still assert that the, "UAA with increased Teleport mass and a Linked/Multiple Power Attack," solution I first mentioned is a perfectly legal and portable way to do it, though ;) ).

[Robyn]

Give it a Fixed Location (city jail, lockup back at the Base, etc.), with "Only to Fixed Location." Needs more inches of Teleport, or up the MegaScale to 10km. This is aka "Go Directly To Jail." :winkgrin:

So what happens if/when the villains take over police headquarters as their new lair?

[radioKAOS]

Hmm. I just read a couple of days ago an answer in the FAQ under Teleport where Steve mentions that Full Move maneuvers may be possible with Teleport at the GM's discretion, but there would never be any velocity damage added. So maybe this can be handled with just a Grab By. It just may not work with all GMs (I'll still assert that the, "UAA with increased Teleport mass and a Linked/Multiple Power Attack," solution I first mentioned is a perfectly legal and portable way to do it, though ;) ).

Actually I was just thinking... couldn't we just make this as a martial arts maneuver? I don't have UMA in front of me though...

Grab, FMove, Damage... should be able to do it for 5pts, no? Of course to make it NND might cause issues...

Just a thought

[Hyper-Man]

Considering that all of the Full Move manuevers give bonus damage based on relative velocity I see no problem with allowing a character with Teleportation to use it to move to the hex in front of an already moving character to use the moving character's velocity to add to the damage done by the Teleporters moveby/movethrough. The inches of actual Teleport would not affect the damage done but any relative velocity from another form of movement like being thrown as part of a fastball special would apply.

[Play4Keeps]

We can't do this but there's nothing to stop us from Transforming an entire bay into steam and letting all the little boats with their little people fall down?

:nonp: Something seems terribly wrong with all that.
You're not content with throwing up your Straw Man (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html)/Red Herring (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html) stuff here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43323) and here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43129)? Did you figure you didn't get enough respect so you're going to insult (using "cutesy" talk to belittle) and harrass (spreading to other unrelated threads) me?

I'm reporting it to Ben.

[prestidigitator]

You're not content with throwing up your Straw Man (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html)/Red Herring (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html) stuff here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43323) and here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43129)? Did you figure you didn't get enough respect so you're going to insult (using "cutesy" talk to belittle) and harrass (spreading to other unrelated threads) me?

I'm reporting it to Ben.
Whoa! Dude. I didn't detect anything insulting or harassing in his posts. Where's the hostility coming from? Relax. We're just having a friendly debate. Take a deep breath, give yourself a little break, go have a soda, and everything'll be all right, man.

[Robyn]

You're not content with throwing up your Straw Man (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html)/Red Herring (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html) stuff here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43323) and here (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43129)?

I don't understand what you're saying. One of those links is to a thread with only one post from me, and it's me posting a question for anyone to answer, on a thread someone else (as it happened, you, but don't feel singled out; there wasn't any reason for you to stand out from the dozens of other people here) had already started:


Does the Transform in 5ER automatically make it easier to change substances into related substances, or would I be able to take that as a Limitation?

For example, if I wanted to change glass into sand, would that be cheaper than changing glass into ice?

I don't understand what's a "Straw Man" or a "Red Herring" there.


Did you figure you didn't get enough respect so you're going to insult (using "cutesy" talk to belittle) and harrass (spreading to other unrelated threads) me?

Considering the hostility and aggression you've so rapidly brought forth, I'm fairly sure your respect would make me worried, if anything (what could I be earning respect from such people for, but more of the same?). But, as it happens, I do "get respect" here on the forums, if PM's and Rep are any indication. I'm not particularly obsessed with having it, but I'm not sure how I could possibly think I was "not getting enough respect" - if anything, my Rep is unusually high considering I joined the forum less than a month ago.

I looked over all three of the threads, and I can see where you might think I was trying to use "cutesy" talk to belittle, and "spreading to other unrelated threads", but look: this is a forum. We talk, and threads cross-pollinate. If we strictly limited our ideas to the scope of individual threads, we'd be a very boring group. For example; I came up with the story for "Susan, the Thief of Time" after reading some thread about "Character concepts that cry out for GM smackdown". One of the entries was for a speedster with duplication - a weary GM asks "Phase one, who goes?" and the player chirps back "We do!". I noted an improvement of that, namely a speedster with duplication and Coordinated Attack, and worked out a character background to fit the powers. As it turns out, Coordinated Attack is not a combat move you have to pay points for, so the end of the post wasn't as impressive as I had thought it would be, but I don't know the rules very well, so I hadn't realized that when I was doing the writeup.

My point is, it's normal for people to take information gained in one thread and use it in another thread. We do it all the time; we see how something similar was handled, and adapt the structure to meet our own needs. There are also some discussions that aren't limited to a strict "structure by thread", but exist whereever they crop up. One of these is game balance: and, yes, it does seem unbalanced to have a Transform so powerful when Teleport cannot be. I pointed this out hoping to have an experienced player explain the incongruity to me, not to insult you.

Lastly, for the "cutesy" talk, you're taking that figuratively when it's meant literally. Take the scope of an AOE that covers an entire bay - not just the surface, but the whole depth. Compare it to the ships and people on the surface of the water. Comparatively speaking, they're little. To the PC whose powers affect an entire bay, these people are like ants.


I'm reporting it to Ben.

:spreads hands, bewildered: I certainly can't stop you. I'd have hoped, however, that in a forum like this (where courtesy is valued), you would at least try to talk things over with me before assuming that I'm an irrational villain with no hope of ever being reformed (to use a Champions analogy), and the only way to deal with me is to call upon a higher authority to get rid of me.

edit: I've thought about it a bit and I can kind of see where the "red herring" might be coming from, but it doesn't make much sense, so I'm hesitant to ascribe it as your reasoning, Play4Keeps. But I'll put it here just to let you confirm or deny the accuracy of my guess, allright? Please don't take offense, I know it's not a very good reason, I'm just utterly lost here. If my guess is wrong, just tell me so and I'll drop it.

If you had this idea of the threads you started as being "about answering your question", and only about that, any questions which distracted from the goal of getting your questions answered could be considered a "red herring". If that's the case, I both assure you that we're more than adequately intelligent when it comes to distinguishing between the original question asked and the side issues that come up along the way, and regret to inform you that the forums don't work that way: if you want to have executive control over who posts what to "your" threads, you'll need to start your own forum where you can be moderator. In the meantime, may I suggest simple courtesy? If you ask politely for people to not get sidetracked, and to post related questions as a new thread in the forum, we'd then know that you don't like that sort of thing.

[radioKAOS]

No: not that.

I have a character who is a teleporter and wants to be able to grab and TP someone and, a la Nightcrawler, can stun the people he teleports.

I have a TP, I have a NND EB linked to it....but that does not really work:

First off the teleport (in fact any kind of movement) others with you rules need a little clarification. I understand that to teleport a character you need to grab them first. I’m assuming that you can then teleport them immediately without further rolls: is this right? I mean, you wouldn’t normally be able to move until your next phase: can you grab and teleport in a single phase? Is that a grab-by? If you grab this phase do you have to make another attack roll next phase to hold on before you can move (after all you would if you wanted to exert a power or damage against the target).

OK.

Next problem: NND attack is going to be in an EC (as the damage is a direct manifestation of the ability to teleport it seemed logical), but even if it was not, and was, say, linked, how would you attack? I mean the NND needs an attack roll: it is not like a side effect, an automatic consequence. So you need to make an attack roll even though the target is grabbed and coming with you – I can’t see any way to make the damage automatic.

If you want to TP with the (still grabbed) target on another phase is that a MPA (grab and NND) and what if the attack roll fails? Do you TP, or just stay where you are (which could be a bit dangerous) or do you TP and take them with you but, for some reason, they don’t take damage?

What I WANT is:

1. Grab target.
2. Teleport with target.
3. Target takes damage from teleporting.

Sorry, it is just that my brain is melting….ore than usual....

Um, are we all just missing that little advantage known as Trigger?

Can we try this?

30 Elemental Control, Teleportation Powers, 60-point powers
30 Moving and a Shakin! - Teleport, 20" x16Mass
20 Mama said Bamph you out!: HA +4d6, NND ([Standard]; +1), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Auto when Using Grab-Teleport Maneuver; +1) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

Your Opponent is DCV x1/2 for being grabbed anyhow.... and then just buy a couple levels with the move to make sure you hit...

Damage wise you're golden... that 4D6 can be up to doubled with STR, so assuming 20STR we already have 8D6, at +1 I think that's probably right about your campaign DC max anyhow... and if it's not, there's always the Martial Arts DCs add rule....

[Robyn]

30 Elemental Control, Teleportation Powers, 60-point powers
30 Moving and a Shakin! - Teleport, 20" x16Mass
20 Mama said Bamph you out!: HA +4d6, NND ([Standard]; +1), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Auto when Using Grab-Teleport Maneuver; +1) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

The rules must have changed a lot since 4th Edition . . . either that or I'm missing something, doing my math wrong, etcetera:

HA (I had to look this up in the Table of Contents), page 73, costs 3 points per 1d6. 4d6 is 12 points, with NND and Trigger is a +2 advantage, bringing it up to 36 points at the most before we even apply Limitations.

I also can't tell if the EC is meant to apply to the "Mama said Bamph you out!" power. Isn't there a limit on powers placed within an EC, that you can't save more than half their costs with it? Checking in 4th, it says that the value of the EC is half the cost of the cheapest power. So, assuming that 5th is the same, wouldn't the EC be limited to 15 points?

[Taking into account the -1/2 Limitation that would reduce the RP cost of the HA. 12 x 2.5 = 30, half of 30 is 15.]

[AmadanNaBriona]

The rules must have changed a lot since 4th Edition . . . either that or I'm missing something, doing my math wrong, etcetera:

HA (I had to look this up in the Table of Contents), page 73, costs 3 points per 1d6. 4d6 is 12 points, with NND and Trigger is a +2 advantage, bringing it up to 36 points at the most before we even apply Limitations.

I also can't tell if the EC is meant to apply to the "Mama said Bamph you out!" power. Isn't there a limit on powers placed within an EC, that you can't save more than half their costs with it? Checking in 4th, it says that the value of the EC is half the cost of the cheapest power. So, assuming that 5th is the same, wouldn't the EC be limited to 15 points?

[Taking into account the -1/2 Limitation that would reduce the RP cost of the HA. 12 x 2.5 = 30, half of 30 is 15.]
Yeah, the rules have changed in some cases quite a bit.
Hand to Hand Attack in one of the big'uns.
After much pratical experience with 4th editions 3 points per die, the powers that be decided that violating the metarule of 1 DC per 5 points led to some serious balance issues... 4th Edition HA was just too bloody good for its cost. The solution was to make it cost 5 per die with a required -1/2 limitation.
As such, the build is legal... 4d6 HA=20 base points. Add the +1 for NND and +1 for the complex resetting trigger (another change from 4th... in fact this was added in 5er... us FREd users don't have the new trigger rules either) and you get 60 active points. EC's are based on Active points, not real points... so the 30 control cost EC drops the cost of each 60 point slot in half, and then that new slot cost has limitations applied. In this case, the -1/2 Hand Attack, dropping the total slot cost to 20.

Whats more problematic with the build is the issue with grabbing & teleporting the unwilling victim, but that's being debated hotly elsewhere

[radioKAOS]

Yeah, the rules have changed in some cases quite a bit.
Hand to Hand Attack in one of the big'uns.

My thanks for clarifying for Robyn.


Whats more problematic with the build is the issue with grabbing & teleporting the unwilling victim, but that's being debated hotly elsewhere

Aye, that's a hot one, but there's room in the Movin and Shakin power to account for a UAA if the GM deems it necessary. 60 Active is pretty good that way. Or easily enough another Teleport power could be added into the EC for just that purpose.

[Threnody]

So what happens if/when the villains take over police headquarters as their new lair?
That there's a teleport to inside the jail, not "just outside the jail." :idjit:

Or you mean "other villains invade the jail building and take it over"? They might free folx inside the jail, but they'd do that no matter how the folx got inside the jail, so your complaint's irrelevent.

FYI, most jails ain't in the police HQ. Near, but a different building.

[Robyn]

FYI, most jails ain't in the police HQ. Near, but a different building.

For metro areas, fair enough. I was thinking of the rural areas, which was silly, since you said "city". But, at some point, the heroes will need to beard the villains "in their lair", probably because the displaced police force wants to have their HQ liberated; and, if the Teleport Destination hasn't been taken as one that they can change, their power is effectively "teleport villain two hexes across battlefield".

That might be exploitable as a "Hey brick, line up on that spot where they've appeared three times running, and get ready to hit them from behind when I do it again!", but that takes the brick out of melee until the setup pays off, not to mention that, after the first time, the villains will probably "wise up" to the trick and be expecting an attack from behind the moment after they get teleported.

[prestidigitator]

Rats! Foiled (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43490). Well, I'd probably still allow it personally.

Of course, it looks moot because the target doesn't have to be willing at all even for a normal TP. You only need UAA if you aren't going with them.