What to use HERO for? M&M for?

[Mencelus]

The recent M&M vs. Hero thread got me thinking about this, especially since I got both games. So here we go:

I recently (yesterday actually) got both M&M 2nd Edition and HERO 5ER. Looked at them both yesterday, just for a feel, and I like what I see from both.

I am currently running a GURPS campaign which will finish in a few months, and my group will probably want to try out a new game. I am thinking of pimping either HERO or M&M to them.

Here's my question. For what genres, styles of play, etc, would you use either game? I'm going for opinions with some concrete evidence, i.e., "The Toughness save models such-and-such better, while the STUN/BODY mechanic makes such-and-such interesting."

I ask because I'm not much into the supers-megagenre itself, though I tend to like these games because they lend themselves to be tweaked for other things, like Sci Fi, or Fantasy. I love GURPS, don't get me wrong, but the "buy everything with your money or using signature gear attribute as money" drives me crazy. And don't get me started with d20 FUTURE (only your wealth bonus matters for all equipment! Whoa!). So, I like point buys for things.

I'll be posting this on the M&M boards to so I can get a real feel for the systems.

[Eosin]

I use Hero for Dark Champions (Ranging from Zombie Invasion to 24 but always with a little Paranormal thrown into the mix... ala Charmed, Buffy, 4400, etc...) and Fantasy Hero. Personally, I run a lower scale fantasy (between Harn and Birthright/Midnight) but have seen Exalted type power levels.

As mentioned, the damage system coupled with martial arts and an amazing ability to customize weapons, armor, and magic just punch my ticket.

[Lord Mhoram]

I've used, and will continute to, use HERO for any and all genre's and settings.

Why - I'm familiar with it, I understand it, I don't have to learn a new system, and I like the feel of the hero builds and it's combat system. It is more detailed and leaves me with a strong feeeling of connection to character and combat.

As a side note - as a playstyle preference, I detest the damage save, so I generally would not go in the direction of M&M for any game. If I played M&M I'd use the hit point option. But that is a preference thing.

[Egyptoid]

umm, you could use M&M only for more ideas to convert into Hero?


this is not simple prejudice, I have played in 3, and DMed two, M&M campaigns.

[OddHat]

Long time GURPS GM, long time HERO GM.

HERO is able to handle weird conspiracy, horror, supernatural, Pulp, fantasy, and blended genres very well. The games will end up with a slightly less gritty, more cinematic feel than the same genres in GURPS, unless you dig fairl deeply into the tool kit to make adjustments. On the other hand, it's a bit easier to dig around at the toolkit level in HERO than GURPS. When it comes to four color Superheroes, HERO was built for it. It does an excellent job with any Supers genre. HERO also provides hundreds of NPCs and organizations for Supers campaigns.

I like M&M's art, and they have some good writers. The presentation is good enough to suck in players and give them an immediate feel for the game's default background. If I just wanted a Supers game, and I were not an experienced HERO player, I might use M&M. On the other hand, some of the d20 hold overs annoy me a bit, and I don't feel I can get my teeth into the system in the same way as I can with HERO.

In the end, the group will make more of a difference than the system when it comes to play experience.

If you want Hero Points, house ruling them into HERO System is very easy.

[Mencelus]

Hmm...interesting thoughts so far. Egyptoid, while it was not my original question, may I ask, what specifically turned you off to M&M?

The D20 aspect of M&M makes it a possible sell to my group - they all know it and it's insanely popular here in Hungary. That the rules are different might keep them interested.

However...

My current thought is to run something hard sci-fi-ish which means I'll need something to handle the work for it. HERO already has powers and stuff that will fit stating out ships (and I am one of those people that likes to stat out some ships, anyone). As far as I've looked (and NOT extensively) M&M has a power for it but it isn't as finely defined as in HERO. Hmm...

Anyway folks, keep it coming. What would you use these bad boys for? Let me add - what would you NOT use it for? For example, I love GURPS, but I just can't imagine trying to do a anime-style game for it. Sure, there are rules for more "cinematic" games, but I'll be damned if I say to my players "Let's have a light anime game - oh, here's the skill list. Enjoy."

[OddHat]

Hmm...interesting thoughts so far. Egyptoid, while it was not my original question, may I ask, what specifically turned you off to M&M?

The D20 aspect of M&M makes it a possible sell to my group - they all know it and it's insanely popular here in Hungary. That the rules are different might keep them interested.

However...

My current thought is to run something hard sci-fi-ish which means I'll need something to handle the work for it. HERO already has powers and stuff that will fit stating out ships (and I am one of those people that likes to stat out some ships, anyone). As far as I've looked (and NOT extensively) M&M has a power for it but it isn't as finely defined as in HERO. Hmm...

Anyway folks, keep it coming. What would you use these bad boys for? Let me add - what would you NOT use it for? For example, I love GURPS, but I just can't imagine trying to do a anime-style game for it. Sure, there are rules for more "cinematic" games, but I'll be damned if I say to my players "Let's have a light anime game - oh, here's the skill list. Enjoy."


Star HERO, Alien Wars, the Hero System Vehicle Sourcebook, etc. are all filled with write ups for sci-fi vehicles, gadgets, characters, and other bits you'll find useful for a sci-fi game.

Hero has some problems at the very low and very high ends of the power scale unless you tweak the engine appropriately, which takes experience. It also requires a fair amout of tweaking for seat-of-your-pants improvisation of powers, though the mechanics do exist. A very light, cartoonish world is probably easier to simulate using something like Tri-Stat or Risus.

[Super Squirrel]

Hmm...interesting thoughts so far. Egyptoid, while it was not my original question, may I ask, what specifically turned you off to M&M?
I'm not Egyptoid, but I'll take a shot at this question as to why I won't get into M&M. M&M may be a faster system in terms of character creation and prep work and may be faster for resolving combat there are two reasons I will not consider it.

The first reason is economical. It is designed for the Superhero Genre. My gaming group does not play just Superheroic Games and because of that, it means having to invest in two systems if I want to have a Superheroic game on M&M and another genre. The gaming market is supersaturated with products and Hero did what no other system (IMHO) could pull off. It provided a system that can do it all. I will admit it isn't for everyone but as far as investments go, only one company is getting my dollar.

The other reason is a much simpler matter. I don't like d20. Not because d20 is evil but because I don't like the linear aspect of d20 combat and skills. The best, quick and dirty example is when you look at a difficult task. When you assign a -4 penalty in Hero, it means that a novice is very unlikely to ever complete the task where an expert might still have a 50/50 chance. But in M&M a -4 penalty means you chances of success have dropped 20% no matter how good or bad you are at the skill.

I won't elaborate any more than that as there are sufficient threads out there that discuss these two factors.

[archermoo]

Simple answer? I use Hero for every genre, and would use M&M for none.

As to why, I like Hero and have been playing it since 1981. I'm familiar with the system, and particularly with the current edition of the rules it does an excellent job with every genre out there, and then some.

I wouldn't use M&M for a very simple reason: I don't have the rules, and am unlikely to ever purchase them. I have no interest in D20 in general, and have very little interest in hardback full colour glossy paper rules books. So it loses my interest on two very personal subjective grounds from the get go. And it is designed for the genre that my favourite rules system (Hero) already does extremely well.

Obviously YMMV. And I know, shocking reply being as this is a Hero board... ;)

[Curufea]

I use Hero for fantasy and scifi that I've created settings for.
I don't play superhero genre, and have never even thought about buying M&M. (okay, I have now, but the the answer is no).
I don't think I've even seen M&M in our hobby store here (we have one, in our city).

[Tasha]

The recent M&M vs. Hero thread got me thinking about this, especially since I got both games. So here we go:

I recently (yesterday actually) got both M&M 2nd Edition and HERO 5ER. Looked at them both yesterday, just for a feel, and I like what I see from both.

I am currently running a GURPS campaign which will finish in a few months, and my group will probably want to try out a new game. I am thinking of pimping either HERO or M&M to them.

Here's my question. For what genres, styles of play, etc, would you use either game? I'm going for opinions with some concrete evidence, i.e., "The Toughness save models such-and-such better, while the STUN/BODY mechanic makes such-and-such interesting."

I ask because I'm not much into the supers-megagenre itself, though I tend to like these games because they lend themselves to be tweaked for other things, like Sci Fi, or Fantasy. I love GURPS, don't get me wrong, but the "buy everything with your money or using signature gear attribute as money" drives me crazy. And don't get me started with d20 FUTURE (only your wealth bonus matters for all equipment! Whoa!). So, I like point buys for things.

I'll be posting this on the M&M boards to so I can get a real feel for the systems.

Hmmmm, well I use Mustangs and Messerschmits (the original M&M) for a fun aviation game with 1/72nd scale WWII aircraft.... Ohhhh you mean Mutants and Masterminds. Pardon me, just showing my age :P

Heck I use Hero for everything, Supers, Fantasy, Spies, Pulp, Sci-fi just about any Genre that I can think of. Heck I am even in a Stargate SG-1 game that is using Hero as it's basis. I really wouldn't use d20 for anything that I could use Hero for.

Tasha :P

[Greywind]

I use the Hero System to run everything except for fantasy. I can't afford any of the Fantasy Hero books.

I do run 3.5. The core books were a gift and most people have access to that system.

[Mencelus]

Interesting replys so far folks. Responses are very similar to what I'm getting over on the M&M boards, though I find the majority are ex-HERO players or those who play both games. Might post this to RPG.net just to cover all the bases.

I see some folks posting who have never played or don't own M&M. While that's okay, of course, I would like to hear more from those who have both games or have played both games, since your opinion will be more on target.

For the record, I read and played M&M 1e, and liked it (which is why I got 2nd edition). I heard of HERO, bought the book like three different times and sold them off three different times for the main reaon of not being able to wrap my head around it, at all. Hexes? Non-standard measures of time (phases and segments, anyone?). Bloody hell! This isn't like GURPS at all!

Then came Sidekick.

Then I got the main 5thER and, yes folks, it all makes sense. Even frameworks are a piece of cake to me now (well, maybe just a muffin but you get the picture). I see the elegance in it, the beauty of it. I like it. I got ideas for it.

But I like M&M too, see. Thing is, I don't see the same uses for it as for HERO. BUt I wanted to know what others thought who know both.

So, post your thoughts folks. Are there any weird stuff that you might do in one system but not the other (like, for example, I would hesitate to do a supernatural horror game in M&M, while I could do it in HERO easy - on the reverse side, I see easily doing an anime-ish Cowboy Bebop in M&M but I wonder if the combat rules for HERO would be too rigid?).

Anyway, I talk too much. Now you!

[Sketchpad]

I play both really. Why? Because I think they both work :) Hero I use for a ton of things, but primarily I use it for supers and pulp. M&M, I use for supers as well (though I do use the dreaded d20 for other games). Both capture the genre IMHO and both are fun to play :)

[OddHat]

So, post your thoughts folks. Are there any weird stuff that you might do in one system but not the other (like, for example, I would hesitate to do a supernatural horror game in M&M, while I could do it in HERO easy - on the reverse side, I see easily doing an anime-ish Cowboy Bebop in M&M but I wonder if the combat rules for HERO would be too rigid?).

Depends on your experience level. You can greatly simplify Hero combat, but you will lose some of the flavor. Cowboy Bebop would be easy enough. It would be harder to do something like Duck Dodgers, but still possible.

For Anime games, if you don't want to try Hero, I'd suggest Tri-Stat (Big Eyes Small Mouth) or Risus (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm).

[Susano]

So, post your thoughts folks. Are there any weird stuff that you might do in one system but not the other (like, for example, I would hesitate to do a supernatural horror game in M&M, while I could do it in HERO easy - on the reverse side, I see easily doing an anime-ish Cowboy Bebop in M&M but I wonder if the combat rules for HERO would be too rigid?).

I think HERO is perfect for anime combat. Characters in HERO can take an awful lot of abuse before dying (much like many anime), unless you introduce Hit Locations, which will make combat with Killing Attacks very lethal. HERO also handles many of the strange powers seen in anime fairly well, since most of them are basically super-powers with hyped-up SFX. In fact, a lot of anime features American superhero-level powers and combat.

Cowboy Bebop would be a snap in HERO. Especially with some of the Talents seen in Dark Champions. Combat Luck, Deadly Blow, and so on -- perfect for the setting and the genre.

I myself use HERO for nearly everything, since I find it so flexible and adaptable. I've built hundreds of characters with the system, ranging from befuddled scientists who clock in at around 50 points, to mega-power planet smashing martial artists who are easily 1,500 points or more.

Oh, and since we're on the subject of Cowboy Bebop and HERO, take a look here:

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionsanime/animechar.html#CB

[massey]

M&M and Hero are very similar. Hero has the Speed chart, and uses 3D6 for resolution. M&M has Hero Points and uses a D20 for resolution. Both will have a difficult time with creating detailed starships (in both systems, vehicles are built on points--there's no reason to have a big ship unless you want a big ship--there's no gritty description other than what you give it).

[KawangaKid]

Hmmmm, well I use Mustangs and Messerschmits (the original M&M) for a fun aviation game with 1/72nd scale WWII aircraft.... Ohhhh you mean Mutants and Masterminds. Pardon me, just showing my age :P

Tasha :P

Mustangs and Messerschmits? COOL! I played that a couple of times. Crashed and burned...

Back on topic - Mutants and Masterminds intrigues me system-wise, though I'd drop many of the Feats just coz I don't like the concept. Yes they ARE like talents but talents used to bug me too, until the FRED indicated that Talents were built using Powers. I'd use it for Supers, but might graft the old AP system from DC heroes / MEGS onto it.

HERO is still tops for me in terms of flexibility of character creation, wealth of combat options, and source material... plus it's got a great message board community!

[Mencelus]

A small challenge - I posted something similar on the M&M boards so let's see what happens.

It's been mentioned that HERO can do gritty games, but that there might be issues with things like the famous STUN lottery. So, here's my challenge. Using the toolkit aspect of HERO, how would you do the following:

Let's say I'm a GM who wants to make HERO lethal - I'm thinking 1960s Cold War: everyone's a a highly skilled agent of one sort or another. Gun battles are rare because, just like real life, guns kill you dead dead dead. People take crazy stunts to be something done because it MUST be done, not cause it "looks cool."

To the crowd - how do I make HERO fit this scenario? I don't mind a few rule tweaksbut the important bits are 1. Must be deadly. 2. Must seem Secret Spy Cold Warrish. Begin!

[OddHat]

A small challenge - I posted something similar on the M&M boards so let's see what happens.

It's been mentioned that HERO can do gritty games, but that there might be issues with things like the famous STUN lottery. So, here's my challenge. Using the toolkit aspect of HERO, how would you do the following:

Let's say I'm a GM who wants to make HERO lethal - I'm thinking 1960s Cold War: everyone's a a highly skilled agent of one sort or another. Gun battles are rare because, just like real life, guns kill you dead dead dead. People take crazy stunts to be something done because it MUST be done, not cause it "looks cool."

To the crowd - how do I make HERO fit this scenario? I don't mind a few rule tweaksbut the important bits are 1. Must be deadly. 2. Must seem Secret Spy Cold Warrish. Begin!

The Stun Lotto is not an issue in a "gritty" game.

Use hit locations, use the bleeding rules, and don't let anyone buy Combat Luck or other resistant defenses. Don't let the players buy stats above 20, demand that they explain stats above 10 in context for their characters. Use the "Normal people have 8 BODY" rule. Build characters on 75+75 0r 50+50. Ordinary gun shot wounds will now be deadly.

You don't need any rules tweaks at all.

[Susano]

The Stun Lotto is not an issue in a "gritty" game.

Use hit locations, use the bleeding rules, and don't let anyone buy Combat Luck or other resistant defenses. Don't let the players buy stats above 20, demand that they explain stats above 10 in context for their characters. Use the "Normal people have 8 BODY" rule. Build characters on 75+75 0r 50+50. Ordinary gun shot wounds will now be deadly.

You don't need any rules tweaks at all.

I'll second this comment. Simply using Hit Locations, combined with no Armor or Combat Luck, and keeping normals down to 8 BODY and CON, will kill characters dead, dead, dead.

[Susano]

There's no such thing as real life when it comes to being killed by guns. I've a friend who was shot 3 times [stomach, butt, and thigh] and has no problems from it. The rapper 50 Cent was shot 9 times and lived to make millions singing about it. So sometimes "real life" does emulate fiction. :)

"Grenades work a lot better in the movies then in real life. This isn't real life."

Shadowfist

:D

[Mencelus]

There's no such thing as real life when it comes to being killed by guns. I've a friend who was shot 3 times [stomach, butt, and thigh] and has no problems from it. The rapper 50 Cent was shot 9 times and lived to make millions singing about it. So sometimes "real life" does emulate fiction. :)

True. But there are also loads of people who DO die from single shots.

For exmaple, in general, the causualites coming in from the Iraq War are not killed because of gunshots. THis is due to their body armor, which covers their torsos - most injuries are limb wounds. But that's only the American and Brits. The Iraqis who are fighting die in droves because they do not have this body armor. A round that hits you in the chest has a good chance of killing you, if not immediately then due to shock and blood loss.

I haven't had a chance to check the hit location rules. Maybe that fixes all?

[John Desmarais]

I haven't had a chance to check the hit location rules. Maybe that fixes all?

"Fixes all" may be a bit strong, but it does normalize the damage as you don't roll for a STUN multiple -the multiple is based on the location (stomach, head, vital have very high multiplies, hands and feet have very low - head and vitals get increased BODY damage as well - which can allow for relatively small attacks to drop someon in one shot).

Really though, if your looking for deadly, STUN multipliers are that important. Just eliminating resistant defense makes guns deadly. Even without using Hit Locations, a 2d6 KA has an excellent chance of dropping someone to the "dying" category in a single shot. From there, the bleeding rules will have an average person dead in less than a minute. Hows that for gritty?

[Vondy]

I owned a copy of 1st Edition M&M before I moved and pared down my collection. I thought the book looked good and gave a great feel for the setting, and that the mechanics had potential, but needed some serious ironing out (which is normal for a 1st edition system). I also felt they were geared towards four color games more than other genres. I assume 2nd edition made some systemic improvements. On the other hand, I didn't actually find the system any simpler than HERO, which is true of D20 in general. Its not simpler, just different. And the book, while thinner, had small print. As a result, learning a second set of mechanics when I already have one that works well and I know didn't really appeal to me. I did use it a few times and thought it worked okay (within the context of being a 1st edition system), but ended up deciding that using the background material and not the system itself was a more productive use of my time (as I think in HERO and automatically translate other game mechanics in general terms after all of these years).

At the same time, were I a man who wanted to run a traditional supers game I would likely use M&M for four-color games as that's what its geared to do. And my experience is that, usually, when a system is geared towards a genre it provides a better play experience. True, HERO can be geared towards anything (though it does some genres much better than others and has granularity problems at lower levels IMO), but that also takes work, which isn't something I'm always in the mood to do. And that's where I think M&M has hit its stride. It does a genre well and does most of the work for you up front, which HERO hasn't really managed to compete with. Yes, HERO has a lot of great books for supers out, but they haven't hit the same tone or provided the same clear vision in terms of the setting. I think HERO suffers from doing too much, and from trying to be universal when its really customizable. That's also one of HERO's strengths: It can be customized to do anything, and does many things very very well, but I think that also leads to a tendency to dilute the settings and the presentation (let alone that meta-setting concept... meltdown meltdown meltdown).

And I note, I do not own M&M, have no intention of purchasing M&M, and use HERO for everything.

EDIT: one last thought, and I know its heresy, but it needs to be said. I don't think the failure in this instance is a failure with HERO as a system, but a failure in the Champions Genre book. I know Aaron Allston is like a god to some people, and I like the vast majority of his work, but he really screwed the pooch on the Champions genre book. It was not a good treatment of the genre and implementing it with Hero. Headliner status aside, Steve should have written it. It had some nice bits, but it wasn't up to par with the genre books Steve has produced (that lousy meta-setting notion aside). I can quibble over the dillineation of information between the genre books and core rules (and I do with pedantic tenacity), but Steve's treatment of most genres has set a clearer tone and hit a stronger mark. And since supers is hero's traditional mainline genre, the failing is more noticeable.

[Lord Mhoram]

but a failure in the Champions Genre book. I know Aaron Allston is like a god to some people, and I like the vast majority of his work, but he really screwed the pooch on the Champions genre book. It was not a good treatment of the genre and implementing it with Hero.

As good as Allston is, I wonder if that was a miscommunication with DOJ, and they were still feeling out exactly what a genre book was supposed to be. I know Mike Subrook has said that having seen the later genre books, he would have done Ninja Hero differently. But yeah, as it stands, Champs is the worst of the Genre books, which is a shame, as Allston is pretty amazing most of the time.

[Vondy]

As good as Allston is, I wonder if that was a miscommunication with DOJ, and they were still feeling out exactly what a genre book was supposed to be. I know Mike Subrook has said that having seen the later genre books, he would have done Ninja Hero differently. But yeah, as it stands, Champs is the worst of the Genre books, which is a shame, as Allston is pretty amazing most of the time.

I think its first genre book syndrome, personally. Aaron's book reminded me of a lot of the "vintage" (3rd edition and earlier) stuff that was produced, and doesn't jive at all with the actual thrust of the genre books as they were later defined, which shows an editorial miscommunication, or an unformed vision of what needed to be done, which is understandable since Steve, all writing credits aside, was still feeling his way into the editor's seat. And Aaron produced a good book. I just think it was the wrong book. If I could make one recommendation to steve it would be a supers genre book done in the style of the later ones, but with a real focus on art and layout as well. Its the hero flagship and I think it would help hero reposition a bit. And its not like he can't just farm it out to the sweatshop of Steve slave-clones they employ.

[Susano]

I know Mike Subrook has said that having seen the later genre books, he would have done Ninja Hero differently.

Very differently. More like Fantasy Hero and Pulp Hero with packages, profiles of the archetypes, and what not.

[Vondy]

Very differently. More like Fantasy Hero and Pulp Hero with packages, profiles of the archetypes, and what not.

I liked your book.

On the other hand those things would have been cool to have. You live and learn, right?

[Lord Mhoram]

If I could make one recommendation to steve it would be a supers genre book done in the style of the later ones, but with a real focus on art and layout as well. Its the hero flagship and I think it would help hero reposition a bit. .

Yeah. I'd agree there.

[Lord Mhoram]

Very differently. More like Fantasy Hero and Pulp Hero with packages, profiles of the archetypes, and what not.


Yeah, I remember you mentioning those things, but I didn't want to speak for you. :)
As it is, I find it extremely useful. :) But I am a martial arts junkie.

[Susano]

I liked your book.

On the other hand those things would have been cool to have. You live and learn, right?

Oh, sure. I recall Ben saying if he could do Spacer's Toolkit over he'd do put in more gear and far less spaceships.

[Lord Liaden]

EDIT: one last thought, and I know its heresy, but it needs to be said. I don't think the failure in this instance is a failure with HERO as a system, but a failure in the Champions Genre book. I know Aaron Allston is like a god to some people, and I like the vast majority of his work, but he really screwed the pooch on the Champions genre book. It was not a good treatment of the genre and implementing it with Hero. Headliner status aside, Steve should have written it. It had some nice bits, but it wasn't up to par with the genre books Steve has produced (that lousy meta-setting notion aside). I can quibble over the dillineation of information between the genre books and core rules (and I do with pedantic tenacity), but Steve's treatment of most genres has set a clearer tone and hit a stronger mark. And since supers is hero's traditional mainline genre, the failing is more noticeable.

I recall an online interview with Aaron Allston discussing the Champs genre book, in which he said that Steve Long provided him with an outline of the subjects he wanted covered in the genre book; so Steve deserves a good share of any blame for how Aaron approached the subject. ;) I do agree with you that any shortcomings in that book have a lot to do with it being the first genre book. I actually like Champions quite a bit, but I also see it as being the weakest genre book.

OTOH the genre sourcebook that really set the pattern and tone for subsequent books (as Steve himself has said) was the second one, Star HERO; and that book was at least as much the creation of James Cambias as Steven S. Long. I believe JC deserves a lot of the credit for how subsequent genre treatments have turned out.

[Lord Liaden]

A small challenge - I posted something similar on the M&M boards so let's see what happens.

It's been mentioned that HERO can do gritty games, but that there might be issues with things like the famous STUN lottery. So, here's my challenge. Using the toolkit aspect of HERO, how would you do the following:

Let's say I'm a GM who wants to make HERO lethal - I'm thinking 1960s Cold War: everyone's a a highly skilled agent of one sort or another. Gun battles are rare because, just like real life, guns kill you dead dead dead. People take crazy stunts to be something done because it MUST be done, not cause it "looks cool."

To the crowd - how do I make HERO fit this scenario? I don't mind a few rule tweaksbut the important bits are 1. Must be deadly. 2. Must seem Secret Spy Cold Warrish. Begin!

I do agree with those who have mentioned the Hit Location Chart and Bleeding/Imparing/Disabling rules as adding lethality to the game, as well as more "realistic" results of being injured. However, I did devise an Instant Kill house rule for games where that level of lethality is desired, which can be effortlessly added to the existing mechanics:

If a character takes an amount of Body damage, after subtracting Defenses and accounting for Hit Locations (if used), equal to his starting Body score, from a single attack (including Coordinated attacks), the character may die immediately from the shock. For very lethal games this would happen automatically; however, the GM may allow a Constitution Characteristic Roll to avoid immediate death.

I've found that the CON Roll version scales well for PCs and notable NPCs, who usually have higher CON stats than normal people (making it easier for them to make their roll), and higher BODY stats (so they usually don't have to roll at all). As GM you can always just assume that mooks and unimportant NPCs automatically fail their roll, if you want carnage among cannon fodder and/or innocent bystanders. :eg:

[Mencelus]

Hmm...like this a lot Lord - you alwasy come up with some good stuff for people to do.

I'm definetely leaning toward HERO for many things, this included (at least until I get the GURPS itch again). Mind you, I just started reading M&M 2nd finally and there are some good things there. I am finding the power build for some things I have in mind for a Star Wars game a bit problematic (for example, Darth's Force Choke - do I use the Suffication power and give it extended range or something else?). In HERO, it looks like I can do it with just an adder to Telekenisis (Fine Manipulation) and use the suffication rules - have I got that right? I was also thinking maybe a RKA with the appropriate range, NND, and maybe a limitation like Gesture (the gripping motion) and Eye Contact. What do you all think?

Anyway, thanks all for the comments and help. Interesting stuff. I think HERO is going to fulfill many of my deep wants and desires. I may post a few Star Wars builds in another thread sooner or later, as I work them up. Want to do a few for M&M and see how they compare first, see where the break points are in both systems (meaning, where something is so expensive or cheap as to be scary). We shall see.

[Steve Kenson]

Darth's Force Choke - do I use the Suffication power and give it extended range or something else?
Suffocate, Range (perception, +2) ought to do it. Note that perception range allows it to work without an attack roll and via things like monitors (as Vader does in Empire Strikes Back).

[Mencelus]

Suffocate, Range (perception, +2) ought to do it. Note that perception range allows it to work without an attack roll and via things like monitors (as Vader does in Empire Strikes Back).

Wow! Thanks Steve (um, non-HERO Steve!). That helps quite a bit. The "through the monitor" thing was what was bugging me - still reading through the M&M 2nd book so I'll see how it stacks up.

Which reminds me, I'm supposed to post some HERO builds here. Finished a few last night. Will do it soon folks!

Oh, and BTW, has wanyone noticed the lead guys for HERO and M&M are both named Steve? Conspiracy theory anyone? :D

[Steve Kenson]

Oh, and BTW, has wanyone noticed the lead guys for HERO and M&M are both named Steve? Conspiracy theory anyone? :D
Add-in the fact that the designer of Superworld is Steve Perrin and you've got to wonder... ;)

Non-Hero Steve

[BigJackBrass]

A superhero game is on the cards for my group and I've been looking at different systems to use. Because I'm dealing with nine or ten players and relatively limited time I wasn't initially sure that we'd be able to get through HERO character generation quickly enough (it's a new system to almost all of the group) so I started to read the competition. As luck would have it, a friend bought me a copy of Mutants & Masterminds 2nd Edition for my birthday.

D20 and I are not really friends. We barely talk any more. The last time I played D&D and the like and actually got through an adventure without being utterly frustrated with the system was nearly twenty five years ago (whereas the last time I played it at all was just a few months back), so I'm wary of it because I don't think it does a terribly good job of framing a roleplaying game.

M&M hasn't changed my mind and I won't be running it, but I must say that I really do rather like the book. The layout and content are admirable, the writing and editing is generally good (despite a couple of remarkably prominent typos) and it's a really attractive package. And reading the rules made me shudder. There's nothing I can quite put my finger on, and as a version of the d20 system it's far better than anything I've seen, but I simply don't fancy using it at all. The rules elements don't come together in a smooth manner for me. If I do switch from HERO for superheroes then I'd be far more likely to opt for Silver Age Sentinels or the vastly underrated Golden Heroes.

The only time I could envisage running M&M is in a situation where the group demanded it, but I think that's unlikely. If I can just speed up the character gen then I think I'll have them hooked on HERO.

Edit: And regarding the Steve theory, don't forget Steve Jackson (of Steve Jackson Games) or Steve Jackson (formerly of Games Workshop). In the eighties I seem to recall a third Steve Jackson working in the industry, so maybe the conspiracy is more focussed than we thought!

[Lord Mhoram]

Edit: And regarding the Steve theory, don't forget Steve Jackson (of Steve Jackson Games) or Steve Jackson (formerly of Games Workshop). In the eighties I seem to recall a third Steve Jackson working in the industry, so maybe the conspiracy is more focussed than we thought!

And HERO was originally co-written by Steve Peterson.

[Susano]

This is starting to sound like my theory on guitar gods. Your name needs to start with "J" to be one. Consider:

Jeff Beck
Jimi Hendrix
Jimmy Page
Joe Satriani
John Petrucci

Of course, this breaks down the moment someone mentions Eric Clapton, David Gilmore, or Stevie Ray Vaughn....

[BigJackBrass]

Of course, this breaks down the moment someone mentions Eric Clapton, David Gilmore, or Stevie Ray Vaughn....

Wait! Did you say Stevie Ray Vaughn..? I sense... a Crossover Conspiracy!!!

Good lord, I need some sleep.

[Lord Mhoram]

This is starting to sound like my theory on guitar gods. You're name needs to start with "J" to be one. Consider:

Jeff Beck
Jimi Hendrix
Jimmy Page
Joe Satriani
John Petrucci

Of course, this breaks down the moment someone mentions Eric Clapton, David Gilmore, or Stevie Ray Vaughn....

Or Brian May. :)

Nice choices above though.

[Mencelus]

Ah ha! See! Good job guys! :thumbup: I forgot about the Steve Perrin connection...now it all comes together. I tell you people, we blow this thing open and we'll know who the REAL secret masters are! ;)

Anyway, thanks all again on the thread. I've got two great games to mess with. Like I said, will post my little builds, probably tomorrow. Later folks.

[Thia Halmades]

I've read some of the general posts here, and as a new-comer (comparatively) to HERO I'll throw my ballcap into the ring.

I wouldn't use M&M, because M&M is d20 derived and frankly, I just got away from using d20. Now mind, I know zippy about M&M. I think if I understand some of Michell's posts that it is point based and not level based, I also understand that it lacks a certain amount of crunch, which is something I just spend (non-disclosed) of dollars on HERO books to GET, because it's what was lacking.

I'm importing my Fantasy game to HERO, because it handles things better at the level the party is at. While I've heard a lot of complaints about the granularity of the system - i.e., it's a set granularity, so it's more difficult to get distinct characters at lower levels - it isn't, to my mind, terribly different from d20. I'm sure I can be proven wrong mathematically, but the feel of it is fairly similar. Buy a skill, raise a skill, there you go. DM (me) assigns penalties/bonuses as necessary, roll your 3d6. Voila.

Once you start ramping up in HERO, however, the field is much more wide open to the player to determine the direction they want their character to go. IF M&M is anything like d20, and it may totally not be, then the field is much more limited in terms of build options. You can replicate anything in d20 into HERO, and more importantly, you remove all of that annoying level-based mechanic that forces you down a path of most mechanically effective.

Also, HERO is the only system I know where you can own one book and have every rule. All of the supplements I own are fantastically useful, and expand the game wonderfully, but the core rules are, in fact, in FREd.

Reasons to NOT use HERO? Complexity. Depth of system, a definate learning curve getting vested into the system. It's complicated! There's a bunch of stuff in there, and you need to both grasp the RP manifestations of skills, as well as take a course in beginning combat, and see how all the rules work on the field. If you were to use ALL of the combat rules in HERO, you'd be sittin' around for a while.

For example, my group has already decided: No hit location rolls, assume you deduct from BODY on a normal hit unless you make a called shot. Second, Killing damage does Killing Damage - no STUN lotto. Knockdown also doesn't apply, unless you're hit with an attack modified by Target Falls. And these are just things the group did, I was ready to use the system and every sub-rule in it. ;)

Point being, as has been said before, it's also much easier to use a system, and take away things you don't like, rather than trying to create new rules for things that aren't there.

And, if you want to see some of my HALO conversion material, you can find it on the Star HERO boards under "HALO Hero?"

To summarize: I know nothing about M&M, but having converted from d20 (and White-Wolf, and FASA, and Palladium) to one system has been a boon. I think if you really get into HERO you won't bother using any other system.

[John Desmarais]

IF M&M is anything like d20, and it may totally not be, then the field is much more limited in terms of build options.

M&M is a D20 game. It is, however, less like D&D (or the core D20) than any D20 game I've ever seen. GRG didn't simply bolt on a few addition to D20 and call it a game - they replaced huge chucks of D20 with different game mechanics in order to get the feel they were looking for. I don't play M&M, and have no plans to play M&M - but if I were going to get roped into a superhero game other than Champions, M&M would probabyl be my first choice.

[OddHat]

I'd say the field is much wider in M&M then it is in Hero as the characters advance. There are just a lot of things you can do in M&M very easily that you cannot do in Hero. The example above of Darth Vadar looking at a monitor and causing the character to suffocate is a perfect example of that. That's something you just cannot do in Hero without either handwaving or forcing yourself to use several expensive powers together to achieve a single effect.

55 Force Choke: Energy Blast 2d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), No Normal Defense (Need not Breath or trained Jedi/Sith; +1), Continuous (+1), Does BODY (+1) (55 Active Points) 2

Allowing a power like the the above to target through a monitor is a trivial GM's call as mentioned in the description of Clairsentience. Fine tuning rules options to fit the campaign is part of building any setting with Hero.

[Thia Halmades]

*shrug* We've disagreed before, Mitchell, and we'll do it again. You prefer M&M, and I appreciate that. I don't have an interest in playing it, and you'll have to appreciate that.

Steve's magic missile isn't the only way to build that spell, first off. I built it on 30 points (what I consider a 1st level spell) just fine, as has Killer Shrike on his home page. It's all in how you construct it. Second, absolutes are utterly doable and covered well enough in Fantasy HERO. So I consider absolutes a poor example of what a system is capable of.

Further, certainly, some people will find addition easier than subtraction. However, I have nearly all (if not all) the published Ultimates books, and they are expansions, certainly, but the core mechanics that make the game go are all in FREd. If I want to build a new racial package, I can do that in FREd without any assistance. In fact, IIRC, one of the big things about HERO is that you don't need any other book because they just give you new solutions to problems you'll likely encounter while doing a genre. They aren't introducing whole new rules.

[Mencelus]

Well, Thia, I actually LIKE M&M - I've never believed in the "one-system-to-rule-them-all" theory of gaming (though now, THREE systems to rule them all...:D ). I like variety, even if it means I'm switching betwen various generic games - hence my continued love of GURPS, for which I now have GURPS Powers (which is a really awesome book - gives me ideas for things in HERO and M&M - combos I wouldn't have thought up myself).

Anyway, the point of my little lecture is that I think you and Mitchell are both a little extreme - I like both systems and will use both as soon as I can turn my players to the Dark Side (I mean, I got them to try GURPS instead of a d20 Modern game, mwahahahaha!). M&M is unlike d20 Modern and D+D enough for me to enjoy it - I have issues with the d20 system but overall it ain't bad - it works as a game engine and doesn't collapse under its own complexity (like Pheonix Command did).

But that's off the point too. M&M and HERO are both good - I just wanted to know HOW to use them and whyfor. Both can do Star Wars for example; just, which one mechanically gets the feel that I and my players want for the game. Genre conventions aside, do my players want things loose? Do they want lots of combat options? Do they want fights that can drag out or fights that can end in one hit? Etc. So, I needed opnions of the systems, since my experience with either is limited.

Hope that makes sense to both Thia and Mitchell. I respect your opinions to a degree, minus the vitrol. It's okay not to like a system, but I don't exactly need all your reasons why - I do need the reasons why one or the other system does or emulates something well. That's what I need. Please give me that!

Thank you.

[Mencelus]

55 Force Choke: Energy Blast 2d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Line Of Sight (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; +3/4), No Normal Defense (Need not Breath or trained Jedi/Sith; +1), Continuous (+1), Does BODY (+1) (55 Active Points) 2

Allowing a power like the the above to target through a monitor is a trivial GM's call as mentioned in the description of Clairsentience. Fine tuning rules options to fit the campaign is part of building any setting with Hero.

True, of course, but I don't like to do that so much if I can - with the particular group I have now, being able to point to a rule or adder or advantage or mimitation that does what we'd like will be easier in the long run - they like pushing and playing with rules as such. In this particular case, the advantage Line of Sight will let me do what I need to do regarding the monitor, I think. Or at least, they'll easily see the logic of it, which is why I want to use M&M or HERO for that game - in both systems I can point out the whys of their force powers.

P.S. - Oh, and thansk for the Force Choke build. Pretty cool. :)

[OddHat]

Line of Sight specifically states that targeting throw monitors and other such devices should not be allowed. They even mention not allowing it through binoculars. Yes, it is trivial to handwave it away, but it still requires the handwave.

If you're not willing to adjust rules to fit the genre and setting, you're not going to get much out of a toolkit system.

[OddHat]

If you must adjust every single rule then it's not much of a toolkit system, is it?

You have the option of adjusting what you want, as you want. You leave the rest as is.

If your distaste for Hero grows too painful, you always have the option of leaving.

[OddHat]

Hero isn't a toolkit game because you have permission to house rule it. If that were the only criteria then every game ever published would be a toolkit game. Hero is a toolkit game because it supposedly gives you all the tools you need to be able to build anything you want. Unfortunately that's not the case with the game so then you're left with the handwaving and trying to justify it as legal as in your example above.

Hero doesn't give you the tools to build a force choke without allowing a trivial rules tweak? Funny, a poster named MitchellS mentioned up thread that you coud create such an effect by stringing several powers together. Perhaps you should discuss the issue with him. Of course, you might think he's a raving fan boy, but I'm sure the two of you will be able to reach a meeting of the minds. It just takes a little mutual respect. ;)

[Thia Halmades]

Mencelus: Sorry, got off track. My apologies.

I would use HERO for: building equipment and materiels regardless of system. The inherent structure makes design infinitely simpler. It requires more work and a chunk more planning than an off-the-shelf built game, such as d20. Don't mistake me, I like d20, I've run it for years. Before that it was White-Wolf & Shadowrun.

I haven't read M&M, but I know enough from what people have said to say this with a fair bit of certainty: If you want to run just a Superheroes game, then M&M is as good a choice and probably will require less work to assemble than HERO. HERO takes work, seriously. The best way to use HERO is if you're going to build everything you want up front, then give those builds to your players, if you're looking for a clean/easy solution.

If you want depth and complexity, and to be able to go beyond & outside the usual examples and get into the heart & soul of the mechanics, then regardless of genre HERO is the game you'll probably want to use. Now I admittedly cannot back that up with a comparison to M&M, but again, my impression here is that M&M focuses as squarely on four-color as D&D focuses on Fantasy.

d20 is a good, solid system. It has enough wiggle-room in 3.5 that not everything is cookie cutter, but because all the material is pre-planned, you wind up buying far more books than you may ever use. I have over 200 dollars in my cart at Amazon now... JUST to bring me up to speed in the last few months. I already have well over $1,500 (and that's a low-ball estimate) of material on my shelf for 3.5.

In that pre-planned structure there are specific paths which are more reasonable and more point-efficient than others; the Ever-Tripping Fighter, the Always Greater Turning Cleric, and so on. Those combos exist in part because no one can get to the source code for the material; they either have to tweak it (which you aren't supposed to need to do in d20, but there's boat loads of house rules regardless) or let it get abused.

On the flip side of that, HERO invites power gaming like no other, but it's much easier to add a limitation or remove an adder rather than house-rule a feat. Once the power is done it's recosted and the player has the points left over. The feat is still spent if he goes that route, and it's nerfed. I can go on like this (and invite flame like this) for hours.

Here's the summation: if you want to do something out of the ordinary, like create a sci-fi game with big guns, psionics, and what have you, you'll want to do it in HERO where it's easy to build the packages, balance the equipment and create a unique feel. If you want to one-stop-shop to play in a genre, without going through the work of construction, then play M&M or d20 in their respective fields. Having played many off-the-shelf games, I now prefer HERO because it lets me do what I want with a minimum of handwaves.

[OddHat]

Yes, you'd need to purchase a legal targeting power [such as Mind Scan] and a legal attack power [such as a BOECV NND blast]. You can't purchase an attack power and handwave it into a targeting power as well. Very simple concept really. The problem is to be able to buy both powers is so expensive that you can't do it for a Star Wars character. Thus you are screwed without breaking the rules.

"Too expensive for a Star Wars Character" depends on how many points you choose to allow characters to be built on in Star Wars campaigns.

[Susano]

"Too expensive for a Star Wars Character" depends on how many points you choose to allow characters to be built on in Star Wars campaigns.

My Darth Vader is 750 points.

[Thia Halmades]

Okay... well, I see what Mitchell is saying, in that you would need to HR OddHat's original build into going through a monitor. I see what OddHat is saying in that you would have to make a simple handwave to work it.

You're both close. Fact is, unless I grossly misunderstand the toolkit system as built, it has "limitation" for things it doesn't cover, and it has "advantage" for the same reason. So Darth can establish an LOS through a monitor? Hoo-rah.

35 Force Choke: 20 STR TK, BOECV (+0), Fine Manipulation (+10) (40), Does BODY, (+1), LOS via Device (the user can use binocs, tv's, etc. to establish LOS, must have idea of location, +1/2), Continuous (+1) (140 Active Points); Only used to choke target (Cannot manipulate objects, -1); Gestures (-1/4), Concentration (0 DCV, must concentrate throughout use, -1), Requires a Skill Roll (Force Talent, -1/2), Must make eye contact with target (even through electronic media, -1/2), Total cost: 35 points.

My understanding here is that because the TK was bought specifically as BOECV, it's working against the target's mental defense. The advantage "LOS can be established through cameras/must be familiar" allows him to choke people he's deployed and on vessles he knows (Imperial Craft). He probably couldn't choke Luke through a holovid while on the Falcon with this advantage.

In addition, he always etablishes eye contact with his targets, and arguably keeps it, but they tend to fall down rather quickly. Insofar as the power itself costs 140 Active Points, yes, if it were just a Force Choke it would be expensive. But it's probably being purchased in a Multi-Power, and Vader is an extremely powerful Sith Lord. That 140, with limitations, would fit easily into either a Force MP or EC, and, better, once Choke is slapped into an Ultra slot it only costs 4 CP.

I hope that clears up a few things. One, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and two, without fanboyism - as I don't consider myself a fan boy of anything, really - the system was built with the caveat "We didn't think of everything. Go nuts."

Oh, and this build will kill a target in about 3 phases, assuming a BODY of 10, bad rolls/good rolls aside. They'll be 0 BODY and falling. A slight variation on "only used to choke" would allow you to lift them up as well, which I think he does, but I never remember if it was Vader or the videogames. Depending on how large an MP you have and with what limitations, you could go higher.

[Susano]

In addition, he always etablishes eye contact with his targets, and arguably keeps it, but they tend to fall down rather quickly. Insofar as the power itself costs 140 Active Points, yes, if it were just a Force Choke it would be expensive. But it's probably being purchased in a Multi-Power, and Vader is an extremely powerful Sith Lord. That 140, with limitations, would fit easily into either a Force MP or EC, and, better, once Choke is slapped into an Ultra slot it only costs 4 CP.

I gave Vader a 150-point VPP.

[Thia Halmades]

Which seems reasonable to me, and this would fit prefectly and acheive the desired effect, all well within the written rules.

[Gadodel]

It's the distaste of all of Hero's raving fan-boys who claim the game can do anything and then when proven wrong justify their claims with house rules.

Perhaps, try to avoid discussions with those sort of people. Do not let anyone else dictate to you how to have fun nor how the game can or can not be used.

I've tried all sorts of games and in general, the issue of 'house rules' tends to be best categorized 'IMHO' or 'YMMV'. IMHO, HERO can emulate all the different things I want to do with a RPG. There are other systems out there, that can do this too, but not as well as HERO. 'Not as well' is one of the most subjective statements one can make or read on the internet. Sometimes, it is true-YMMV.

Having said that, with 2E; M&M has reached a point where it is *nearly* equal to HERO in its capacity to emulate all the different things I want to do with a RPG. It would be equal if the 'Default Power Level' mindset were to disappear. In fact, the games have so many similarities that debating which is better is becoming a futile process.

[Gadodel]

However, let me answer the OP's question: one can do virtually everything they want with either HERO or M&M.

When I game, I have only three criteria that must be met:

1. Is it feasible?: Do the game mechanics allow it and are they effective at giving me what I want?

2. Is it acceptable?: Does the game prevent conflict with the Game Master and fellow Players?

3. Is it fun? Am I enjoying myself or am I having to put too much work into the game?

[Andrew Cermak]

As far as being able to do everything that d20 can do in Hero, I would say there's a whole list of things which d20 fantasy can do which Hero can't; not the least of them being absolutes. :) IIRC Steve's "magic missile" spell in Digital Hero had a final cost of 48 points. That's pretty steep price for a 150 point Fantasy Hero wizard to pay for a 1st level spell. :)

That just means the systems balance differently. It doesn't mean one system is doing something the other can't. Likewise with the Force Choke example. Hero places a high premium on the ability to snipe from complete safety, and so the ability is expensive, but claims that "Hero can't do it" are false. Hero can't do it cheap without adjustment, but Hero doesn't want to do everything cheap.


It's not my distaste for the system that grows too painful. It's the distaste of all of Hero's raving fan-boys who claim the game can do anything and then when proven wrong justify their claims with house rules.

I've never seen a Hero fan claim that "Hero can do anything at any point cost you want." Or that "Hero can do anything exactly how you think it should be done with no adjustment required."

You're tilting at windmills and setting straw men afire.

[Bik Britelite]

"Grenades work a lot better in the movies then in real life. This isn't real life."

Shadowfist

:D


Ahhhh, Shadowfist. My favorite game, and the quotes always make me laugh. "Home made grenade—I'm pretty sure that wasn't the pin that just fell out."


I use Hero for our fantasy settings but our best use for it has been running a Planescape campaign. The amount of modification you can have to alter your character allows you to build everything you could encounter in Sigil and the planes. Tieflings, baatazu, tana'ri, animated suits of armor, vampires, etc.