Transform vs SFX

[Lairian]

Okay, so I ran into a problem running game last night that I was hoping to get input on to be able to make a fair and balanced decision (I'm a newbie Champions gm).

The group has a character that consolidates light in the area into matter to create armor, change his physical makeup. This also changes his mental state slightly, and has other minor affects. We built this through Multiform due to mental changes, rather than building everything with Only in Heroic Identity.

In fighting The Chemist last night, a splash of Armor Eating Acid destroyed the armor (modeled with Transform for a semi-permanent change).

The problem came up when the Transform stated that the armor comes back at REC/Month, and the SFX said that he could drop out of the Multiform, and then change back in and resolidify light into the armor once more.

I appreciate that the genre hinges a lot on SFX and they should be given a lot of leeway. However, I also don't want to trivialize an 'attack' that was meant to cause a mission-long problem.

Can I get some advice on how more experienced gms would arbitrate this SFX vs Transform conflict?

[ghost-angel]

I would state that when he retransforms back into the Armor it's still damaged ... after all there's nothing stating that removal or restriction of powers is magically cured when someone shidts states with Multiform or Shapeshift..

Thinking about what you've done: You've Transformed the Multiform - it still has to heal FROM the Transform before it's normal again, shifting back and forth doesn't alter that fact.

[Sean Waters]

Presumably his rationalle is that he is creating the armour each time he transforms, from ambient light energy and it therefore makes no sense that it would still be damaged. There are three choices that I can see:

1. He's right and the sfx trump the power. I don't like this one personally, but if you went for it I'd require him to come up with a balancing limitation to counter this substantial advantage.

2. He's wrong and the armour stays damaged until it would 'heal' normally. This is the base approach I'd tend to take, or

3. There's something about his armour he had not previously known - a new power:

Healing (armour) 1d6 reduced recovery rate (once per turn +1.5) 0 END linked multiform cost 20 points. Now whenever he changes multiform he heals back damage to the armour - it should be right as rain in no time.

(Or Power Defence 30 points, adjustment powers and transform work normally but any points that WOULD have been stopped by the power defence recover very quickly (when multiform activated) -1 for 15 points).

You can probably make it sheaper with limitations etc. Give him the power NOW but require him to pay for it either with additional disadvantages or with the nex 15/20 points of XP he earns.

None of the above is 'right' in any absolute sense - whatever works best in your game.

[ghost-angel]

One thought on justifying the SFX is that yes he made be reforming the Armor from ambient light but his Magic has a "memory" that brings the armor back to it's previous last used state.

[Blue]

Maybe the SFX isn't that the armor is chipped or worn, but more that it's kind of spectral; It's not fully tangible and fully effective until it is totally healed.

(Though it does occur to me that he will definitely need to be wearing clean underwear)

[RDU Neil]

Welcome to the boards, and thanks for asking... you've dropped yourself right into the middle of the SFX Wars. Watch your head! :D

From a mechanical POV: The power he used was "Armor" with the SFX of light... and the attack was Transform vs. Armor... SFX acid eating something solid.

Correct?

Mechanically, Transform wins unless there is some kind of healing of the Armor.

What sounds like the issue is that SFX of "light based" really doesn't make sense for the SFX "acid" to work against it. Or, even if the acid does, there is the thought that "just reform the armor" and we are good to go" because that makes sense from an SFX POV.

Am I correct in that interpretation?

One thought is "Is Armor the power you should be using?" Why not FF, persistant, Zero END, etc.? That seems more like a power matching a SFX more closely. Then the acid would have to be "Transform vs. Force Field" and the mechanic vs. SFX issue problem is there, because acid eating a FF doesn't make sense.

Essentially, you are an at impasse. One SFX needs to win. Either the "Acid" SFX wins (and it has mechanical support) or the "Light" SFX wins which has less mechanical backing.

What I'd suggest is being flexible on talking about this with the player... and either you both agree "Eh, kinda wonky, but the Acid transform wins of the light armor this time" or maybe "Let's rebuild multiform guy so his "armor" is actually a Force Field, thus an acid armor transform wouldn't even work agains it" or whatever.

There is no absolute answer... but each answer has it's own repercussions. If you are clear on the reperscussions between the two of you, the answer you want is simply the one you can best agree upon.

Good luck.

[David Johnston]

His armour comes back damaged. Why you may ask? Because, his armour is a creation of his imagination, and his mind knows his armour was damaged. It's going to take him a while (and maybe some psychotherapy) to revisualise himself as not being damaged when down in his subconscious he _knows_ he was damaged.

[Kristopher]

The problem with either approach as an absolute is that someone will try to "game the system".

As an example, I've seen more than one build where the SFX is poison, but the person using the power will get upset if a target has LS: Immune to Poison. "There's nothing in my power that says Life Support can stop it, it's built as a Variable Effect Drain!" Yes, munchy, that's true, but you bought it as a poison, and this NPC is Immune to Poison. Tough luck.

[ghost-angel]

It's a Game decision really. what works best Dramatically for the game as well as conceptually for both the Player and the GM.

Inevitably the boards will say "Yes." in answer to your question.

[schir1964]

One of the fixes I've enforced for Adjustment Powers as a whole is that one must specify a "Target SFX" that they can affect as a default. This generally eliminates this kind of problem with Adjustment Powers, including Transform.

So if Acid is forced to have a Target SFX of what it affects, you can easily determine whether it should affect Light Based Armor or not.

As to the Multiform and turning powers off and on again, since Transform mechanically is supposed to be akin to a killing attack with permanent damage like effects, the mecahnics say that damage just doesn't go away.

Now whether that makes sense.... (8^D)

This is where "Reasoning from SFX" must be dealt with thoroughly at the beginning.

- Christopher Mullins

[Lairian]

Wow...lots of responses. Thanks all!

The "mental block" on the armor coming back makes perfect sense to me, and seems to fit the feel and setting very well; I'll bring it up first and formost since it meshes so well with the superhero genre and offers roleplay potential.

Failing acceptance of that, I think RDU Neil is hitting right on the crux of the issue, and in hindsight, a persistant 0 END Force Field would probably make a much better representation of the "solidified light armor" as far as vulnerabilities go. I think discussion will open up with a quick rebuild to use that model, since it more faithfully represents the idea the player wants.

If that suggestion is met with resistance, I think the Sean Waters method of a new and previously unknown power awakening will be enacted; highly utilitarian.


This is where "Reasoning from SFX" must be dealt with thoroughly at the beginning.

- Christopher Mullins
So terribly much the case...serves me right for thinking anything is a straightforward SFX...

[Hugh Neilson]

One of the fixes I've enforced for Adjustment Powers as a whole is that one must specify a "Target SFX" that they can affect as a default. This generally eliminates this kind of problem with Adjustment Powers, including Transform.

So if Acid is forced to have a Target SFX of what it affects, you can easily determine whether it should affect Light Based Armor or not.

One approach here would be to allow the Acid Attack to affect any defense which physically manifests as armor (even if it's purchased as + PD/ED and Damage Resistance), and not allow it to affect anything which manifests as a force field (regardless of how that force field is mechanically designed).

[prestidigitator]

In fighting The Chemist last night, a splash of Armor Eating Acid destroyed the armor (modeled with Transform for a semi-permanent change).

The problem came up when the Transform stated that the armor comes back at REC/Month, and the SFX said that he could drop out of the Multiform, and then change back in and resolidify light into the armor once more.
I'd like to ask for a slight clarification. Was this an existing Transform that was built as using the normal healing rate, or was it modeled on the spot as a Transform? Because if it was the latter, Transform can be built with a recovery condition other than normal healing...and in this case reactivating the Multiform could be a suitable condition.

If you are looking for a way to justify (either in game terms or in setting-appropriate rationale) the armor staying broken, then certainly the other posters have made good suggestions. If as GM you are looking for a way to allow the character to get back their armor, you can certainly make a ruling (based on SFX, common sense, or even just a one time hand wave). If you are simply having trouble modeling a setting element, I wouldn't sweat it too much. :)

[Lairian]

I'd like to ask for a slight clarification. Was this an existing Transform that was built as using the normal healing rate, or was it modeled on the spot as a Transform? Because if it was the latter, Transform can be built with a recovery condition other than normal healing...and in this case reactivating the Multiform could be a suitable condition.

If you are looking for a way to justify (either in game terms or in setting-appropriate rationale) the armor staying broken, then certainly the other posters have made good suggestions. If as GM you are looking for a way to allow the character to get back their armor, you can certainly make a ruling (based on SFX, common sense, or even just a one time hand wave). If you are simply having trouble modeling a setting element, I wouldn't sweat it too much. :)

It was an existing Transform with normal healing rate described as "long and difficult repairs to fix the massive damage".

[Threnody]

I thought the rules said if you break something in shape 1 and went to shape 2 it was still broke when you came back to 1. Same for powers knocked offline.

I can't find it in the rules tho'. Anybody find it?

[schir1964]

I thought the rules said if you break something in shape 1 and went to shape 2 it was still broke when you came back to 1. Same for powers knocked offline.

I can't find it in the rules tho'. Anybody find it?
Under Multiform, the third paragraph talks about how STUN, BODY, and END levels do not automatically heal to full value by switching forms, but heals at thier normal rates as time passes by.

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Under Multiform, the third paragraph talks about how STUN, BODY, and END levels do not automatically heal to full value by switching forms, but heals at thier normal rates as time passes by.

- Christopher Mullins
and you could easily extend this to any Adjusted Power (Drained, AIDed, Transformed, etc...)