Countering powers w/powers

[Samaritan]

Hiya-

I don't have the book in front of me, so forgive me if this is answered there: how would you build an EB that, for example, can be used as a defense against another EB? As in, you could abort to it to portray one of those instances where two opponents are trying to overpower one another's blast to blast the other?

Or would you just allow for something like this with any character with an appropriate power?

[schir1964]

Hiya-

I don't have the book in front of me, so forgive me if this is answered there: how would you build an EB that, for example, can be used as a defense against another EB? As in, you could abort to it to portray one of those instances where two opponents are trying to overpower one another's blast to blast the other?

Or would you just allow for something like this with any character with an appropriate power?
There was another thread long ago where someone had come up with a method for handling this kind of thing, but I don't remember the title.

- Christopher Mullins

[Lord Liaden]

I did find a couple of threads which discuss various options for doing this:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34066

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39824

However, as both of those threads mention, this subject is dealt with in detail in the Fifth Edition Ninja HERO sourcebook, under "Contest of Power."

[gojira]

I didn't read through those links, but one way to do this is just to buy a Multipower with the EB in it, and then add some slots with extra defense with the SFX "I zap 'em with my EB."

For example, if you can zap missiles and bullets with your EB, that might be Missile Deflection w/ Requires a Skill Roll. The skill roll simulates making an attack roll with your EB. Since this is a power in an Multi slot, you have to abort and use an action to get it's defense, which is just like aborting to your EB.

If you can stop EB's cold with your EB, then that might be Force Wall vs EB w/ Requires a Skill Roll. A one hexside FW will protect you from attacks from one direction, but not from the sides or back. If you can swing your EB around quickly enough to block multiple attacks, you might have to buy a bigger FW and wrap it around you.

Etc.

[Erkenfresh]

Gojira's suggestion is quite good. However, you won't get a chance to "roll damage" to outdo your opponent's energy blast. Now, if you used absorption, you would get a roll. Maybe something like this:

Anti-blast: (Total: 80 Active Cost, 45 Real Cost) Absorption 10d6 (energy, ED) (50 Active Points); Only against energy blasts (-1/2) (Real Cost: 33) <b>plus</b> +30 ED (30 Active Points); Linked (Absorption; -1/2), Only up to amount rolled by absorption (-1/2), Only against energy blasts (-1/2) (Real Cost: 12)

It's a little wacky, the points absorbed would automatically protect you against further energy blasts. Perhaps you could absorb into something else. With this build, you'd roll your 10d6 and you could get up to a 30 point discount on the incoming energy blast. ;)

This probably isn't very good though.

[Seenar]

For Mind Control and the like, we have a house rule that another use of Telepathy can roll "body" vs "body" to break the mind control.

[Lord Liaden]

There's actually a rule in Fifth Edition that allows for a mentalist to help overcome another mentalist's hold on a target. See "Competing Mental Powers," FREd p. 80/ 5ER p. 119.

[Erkenfresh]

OK, I thought up something better:

Counter Blast: Energy Blast 8d6 (40 Active Points, 20 Real Cost)); Can only target other energy blasts with an abort action (-1)

Force Field (30 PD/30 ED), Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; When targetted by an energy blast; +1/4) (75 Active Points); Only to protect against energy blasts (-1), Only up to amount rolled on counter blast (-1/2), Linked (Counter Blast; -1/4) (27 Real Cost)

Now, you get to roll against the incoming attack and the amount you roll is how much the incoming attack is weakened. I'd say it's A-OK to abort to this energy blast since it's being used as a defense but your GM might think otherwise.

[Dust Raven]

As Lord Liaden points out, the rule for this exact thing is found in Ninja Hero (Contests of Power, page 58). I've just reread it, and it looks to work okay. I'm surprised it only appears there (might be in the Combat Handbook, but I'd have no idea) and not included in Fantasy Hero or Champions, both of which are more famous for such events than a martial arts story.

[Hugh Neilson]

As Lord Liaden points out, the rule for this exact thing is found in Ninja Hero (Contests of Power, page 58). I've just reread it, and it looks to work okay. I'm surprised it only appears there (might be in the Combat Handbook, but I'd have no idea) and not included in Fantasy Hero or Champions, both of which are more famous for such events than a martial arts story.

While I agree, I suspect if it was in Champions and Fantasy hero as well, we'd be subjected to complaints about paying for reprinted material. Hopefully, it's in the Combat Handbook, or makes it to some other "Book of Reprinted Stuff" in the future.

All in all, I think the approach of "Any rule change goes in one original book, and can be reprinted in a book of reprinted rules from a variety of books" is probably the best overall.

[prestidigitator]

If you want to actually build something like this instead of making it into a general rule, simply give the character a basic Missile Deflection (in a Multipower or whatever if you like). The SFX is that the character's, "attack power," is being used to stop/deflect/counteract the incoming attack. The Block mechanics used by Missile Deflection already take into account the, "skill" (i.e. OCV) of the characters in the contest. If you really want to base it on the size of the Power you can build in CSLs that are Linked to the Power (so they must be used in proportion to the amount of the Power being activated).

[Dust Raven]

While I agree, I suspect if it was in Champions and Fantasy hero as well, we'd be subjected to complaints about paying for reprinted material. Hopefully, it's in the Combat Handbook, or makes it to some other "Book of Reprinted Stuff" in the future.

All in all, I think the approach of "Any rule change goes in one original book, and can be reprinted in a book of reprinted rules from a variety of books" is probably the best overall.
I agree, but wonder why it didn't originally appear in Champions or Fantasy Hero instead of Ninja Hero.

[Threnody]

Contest of Power doesn't work with Instant Powers like EB's.

Do it kind of like attacking the enemy's weapon (like in Fantasy Hero etc.); you need to be Holding an Action is the big difference.

Just like the Riviera Kid shooting the bad guys' bullets out of the air. :lol:

[Dust Raven]

Depending on how the EB (or whatever) works, a Contest of Power can work just find with an Instand Power. It may be Instant, but that's just a game mechanic for requiring an attack roll each Phase. The attack could be a continuous (not the game mechanic Continuous) beam just as easily as it could be a short pulse or quick blast.

[Susano]

I agree, but wonder why it didn't originally appear in Champions or Fantasy Hero instead of Ninja Hero.

Because I thought of it after watching episodes of Dragonball Z, Big Trouble in Little China, and certain other video games.

[Dust Raven]

Because I thought of it after watching episodes of Dragonball Z, Big Trouble in Little China, and certain other video games.

Ah, well that explains everything! :D

[Hugh Neilson]

Because I thought of it after watching episodes of Dragonball Z, Big Trouble in Little China, and certain other video games.

I suggest that Ninja Hero was the first published book in respect of which the author thought of the mechanic, so that's where it's published. Now, whether Champs and Fantasy Hero should have a reference to Contests of Power and refer the reader to Ninja Hero is a good question. I suspect, however, that "Here's something you can have in your game - go out and buy this other book to see how it works" would go over, if anything, worse than reprinted material.

I don't game in the sci fi genre, but I bought Star Hero because it addresses elements that may be useful in other games (like Supers in Space).

[Threnody]

Depending on how the EB (or whatever) works, a Contest of Power can work just find with an Instand Power. It may be Instant, but that's just a game mechanic for requiring an attack roll each Phase. The attack could be a continuous (not the game mechanic Continuous) beam just as easily as it could be a short pulse or quick blast.

It's fine if the ONLY way you can use your EB to defend against his EB is to push it back. If you can use your EB to knock his aside, nullify it, etc. etc., Contest of Power doesn't work.

Redoing "Weapon Breakage" could work.

Ya see, ya got a mechanic that works only with one special effect---OK, with one type of special effect---and it don't shift round to other special effects none too good. Something more general is better: "break" his "weapon" or something else.

Course if Samaritan wants only the "push back" deal, then C. of P.'s written up already for him. ;)

[Dr. Anomaly]

House-rule it like this:

1) Use a held action for (or abort to) a Block, using a similar type of attack (energy vs. energy, and so on) (and yes, I know Block's supposed to be for hand-to-hand attacks) Assuming the block is successful:

2) Treat the attack as if it were Strength; every DC of the attack = 5 STR, and have both parties involved roll "Strength" just like in a normal STR vs STR contest between someone grabbed (being attacked by the energy blast) and the grabber (someone doing the blasting).

3) If the attacker wins, the defender/blocker couldn't stop the beam; they get hit anyway. (The GM may reduce the incoming DCs by the amount of BODY rolled on the "Strength" check by the defender.)

4) If the defender wins, the attack is stopped, at least this phase. They may want to try for a Reversal next time, and push the attack back towards the original attacker.

...y'know, this sounds more like some customized Martial Arts manuevers, doesn't it?

[Dust Raven]

It's fine if the ONLY way you can use your EB to defend against his EB is to push it back. If you can use your EB to knock his aside, nullify it, etc. etc., Contest of Power doesn't work.

Redoing "Weapon Breakage" could work.

Ya see, ya got a mechanic that works only with one special effect---OK, with one type of special effect---and it don't shift round to other special effects none too good. Something more general is better: "break" his "weapon" or something else.

Course if Samaritan wants only the "push back" deal, then C. of P.'s written up already for him. ;)

It's only needed for that particular SFX, and typically applies only in a limited number of genres. For knocking an attack asside, the existing mechanics of Missile Deflection, FW and other apply and no others are really needed.

[Threnody]

It's only needed for that particular SFX, and typically applies only in a limited number of genres. For knocking an attack asside, the existing mechanics of Missile Deflection, FW and other apply and no others are really needed.
The "Contest of Power" is a combat manuever, so I was thinking of an other new combat maneuver without limited to one type of special effect.

A character could have Missle Deflection, etc., etc., with the special effect it looks like his EB. But if another character doesn't buy that, it's not part of the game world like C. of P. is. So a new combat manuever is maybe more like what ya want.

I think Breaking Weapons is the place to start from, but maybe MisDef or Block would work. :D

[Killer Shrike]

iirc Susano covered this in Ninja HERO.

[Dust Raven]

The "Contest of Power" is a combat manuever, so I was thinking of an other new combat maneuver without limited to one type of special effect.
There is no other combat maneuver that does this, and Contest of Power is specifically limited in applicable SFX by definition (otherwise it might be a standard or optional maneuver (in the standard rules rather than in a genre book).


A character could have Missle Deflection, etc., etc., with the special effect it looks like his EB. But if another character doesn't buy that, it's not part of the game world like C. of P. is. So a new combat manuever is maybe more like what ya want.
I don't know what you mean by if another character doesn't buy that. If a character doesn't buy Missile Deflection, he can't deflect/block ranged attacks. If he doesn't buy Force Wall, he can't put a shield between him an incoming attacks. Maneuvers aren't necessary. CofP has some limited applications (depends on the SFX of the attack powers involved) but you don't need to provide a special maneuver for other types of stopping incoming attacks. In fact, do provide one would be a bad idea for it would grant all characters the ability to do something they currently must pay points for.


I think Breaking Weapons is the place to start from, but maybe MisDef or Block would work. :D
I'm not sure how breaking weapons apply, as weapons aren't necessarily involved, and Missile Deflection is something characters must buy to be able to do and should not be provided for free.